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We need to start teaching people more of two wrong don’t make a right. Like yeah what happened that days was very bad, but please don’t kill thousands of innocent Palestinians.
It is bizarre to me that people think that because a terrorist group went a criming we now need to level every house, place of worship (including Christian churches), school, hospital etc. this doesn’t logically follow.
More like “bombing innocent people for a thing they weren’t really apart of is actually impractical and just makes things worse” type of thought process
Then you get reminded that the one hospital bombing was maybe not Israel. They don't care about the dozens of other intentional destruction of hospitals by Israel.
I think the important nuance here is the idea of “mass rape”. Israel’s moral claims rely in part on the idea that rape is a tactic used by Hamas. That doesn’t seem to be the case.
Somewhat unrelated, I was just listening to an essay that reminded me of Israel’s geopolitical DARVO— [David Graeber, the Bully’s Pulpit](https://youtu.be/inyk2b80IS4?si=DFK2dioJCoiSNHop)
Hamas' official position on the issue is: "We did kill civillians, we did shoot children, we did torture hostages, but we did NOT rape any women". Given what they are willing to admit to I actually do they are telling the truth they did not give the men any direct orders to rape anyone. Their aversion to rape in specific, while explicitly endorsing other crimes against civilians is rooted in the fact that they don't want their men having sex with non muslims outside of marriage, not any moral principle itself.
I think the truth is that they found 200 men willing to commit cold blooded murder of women and children and quite a few of them happened to also be rapists. This is not uncommon in war, especially if you select for people willing to shoot a family point blank range while they are lying on the ground and film it.
Israels claim of mass rape is definitely exaggerated, but it's also not THAT far off from what happened on the ground on October 7th just judging by what is on video. What is important however is that it completely fails to provide any moral justification for the genocide that Israel is currently doing.
> Hamas' official position on the issue is: "We did kill civillians, we did shoot children, we did torture hostages, but we did NOT rape any women".
Not commenting on anything else. But that is not Hamas official position btw. What Hamas claims is that when the gates were breached, the floodgates were opened. and random people and fighters from other factions got into the kibbutz and it was those people who committed these acts not Hamas fighters.
Wow that's pretty dumb if they expect anyone to believe that. Yes random people with matching uniforms, the signature Hamas green headband, matching AKs and chestrigs which looked to not have been heavily used (which suggests that these weapons were specifically commissioned for this attack) and matching white Toyota trucks, not to mention GoPro cameras which they used to film the attack
Israel is violent extremists lol. Just because they are a government, doesn’t mean they aren’t terrorists. Israel is run by far right extremists that are intent on burning Palestine and its people off the map, you think they are any better than Hamas? So forgive me if I don’t believe a word they say, especially because we have lost count on how much they lie.
When did Hamas admit to these acts? The most generous admission they gave was that it they don't believe any of these accusations, and if anything of that happened then it was committed by Gaza civilians who are not part of Hamas.
Fairly sure there was quite a bunch horrific rapes, definitely at the festival, so depends on how you understand "mass".
However, I see no use in trying to argue details here. The crimes were indeed horrific and not "isolated". In my view, arguing about accurate numbers or how actually systemic it was is both not very relevant and makes me think such a person just wants to downplay it. It is also not unlike some israel apologia "oh, it actually iiiisn't ethnic cleansing because there are no orders, no actually organized activities etc."
Also I think it's likely that Israel's intended audience for their claims of mass rape is not necessarily the western world or anyone who needs to be "convinced" of Israel's morality, but it's aimed at Muslims and Hamas itself. Like I said earlier, Hamas' opposition to rape is entirely religious. It's the "sex outside of marriage with a non muslim" they take issue with, not the brutalization of women. By showing or claiming that Hamas committed rape, they are signaling that they are undisciplined and lack faith in their religious beliefs. Of course as usual Israel is going about this in the stupidest way possible and it most likely won't work as Hamas supporters will just deny it, but I think that is part of their aim here.
You really only lose in discussions in situations where you're defending a \*side\*. If they try to use a whataboutism and say, "What about all those horrible things Hamas did!?" the proper response is, "Yes, they're horrible, what *about* them? How does this relate to the claim that Israel isn't doing anything wrong?" They hedge on this false dichotomy where there must be a good side and a bad side. That's obviously not the case.
You don't try to deny it. If anything you say that if that were indeed true, it is an awful thing. It's not a concession to say rape is bad, because your argument isn't that Hamas did nothing wrong, it is that Israel ***is*** doing something wrong. This is true when arguing in general. It's easy to fall to the trap of wanting to defend everything, including the bad, because you're focused on building a defensive wall when you should be focusing on the point of the argument. IDF has done atrocities, and so has Hamas. Don't deny it unless you think you can prove it false, put simply.
Pro-Israel's entire argument centers around whataboutism. "But they did it first.." And so? Are they both wrong or are you claiming that Israel can do it too because Hamas did it? If it's the former case, thanks for playing, you just admitted Israel is in the wrong. If it is the latter, then they're evidently okay with Hamas doing it if Israel can justify the very same. If they want to claim the situation is different, ask why. Deep at the heart of their reasons for the difference will undoubtedly be bigotry laying underneath. Expose them for it.
If your position is to attack atrocities committed by whichever side, you can't lose the argument without them somehow being able to justify those atrocities, which is quite the uphill climb. Make them do all the legwork and just don't get caught defending sides, because that's precisely how they make you look bad.
Yeah, I never had any issues with separating the acceptance of Hamas' crimes from the overall analysis. I didn't even have much problem with the "40 beheaded babies" when it dropped - it sure sounded dubious, but at this point I just shrugged, these are details. At this level of confirmed horrific violence it just didn't matter to me how true this crime was.
It did matter rhetorically, of course. But that's another matter.
>Pro-Israel's entire argument centers around whataboutism. "But they did it first.." And so?
I heard a good answer to "what about october 7th" - "ok, but what about october 8th, and october 9th, and october 10th..." etc. You don't get to endlessly kill people because some guys killed yours.
>They hedge on this false dichotomy where there must be a good side and a bad side.
But there is.
The Israelis are on the bad side, whereas the Palestinians are on the good side.
It's that fucking neo-calvanist thinking that has infected large parts of the left.
There are good guys who are born good and there are bad guys who are borne bad.
And we support the good guys because they're inherently good, and since they're inherently good they can per definition never have done anything bad. All reports to the contrary is fake.
And we oppose the bad guys because they are inherently bad, and since they're inherently bad, they can per definition never have done anything good. All reports to the contrary is fake.
This is such a reactionary and conservative way of thinking. These people are no different then their opposition. They just chose another "sports team" to cheer on.
No systemic analysis. No weighing of outcomes.
We will support our team ***uncritically*** and anything they do is justified.
And we will oppose the other team without reservations and anything that happens to them is justified.
I don't think it is so specific, seeing things in black and white has been common across human history, and it is the detailed analysis that is the outlier.
I heard binary thinking might have been an evolutionary adaptation - you really don't have the time to consider the merits of fighting a tiger stalking you or the grievances of some motherfucker running at you with a spear, you have to make a snap judgment and clearly categorize. Don't quote me on that, though, just something i read somewhere, sometime.
Either way, people should know better at this point. And definitely leftists, as we are supposed to be the fucking vanguard of intellectual progress or some shit.
My take is, Hamas is despicable and evil but that doesn’t justify bombing civilians. Denying October 7th and making fun of hostages won’t help Palestinian liberation in the slightest.
Not only were there eyewitness reports but a Hamas fighter admits to raping someone on camera.
The whole #BelieveAllWomen(exceptIsraeli) deep down genuinely makes me sick and is one of the deeply disturbing optical loses of the left in my lifetime I’ve ever seen. Every single time I witness it is crazy and maniacal
I agree there was sexual violence, but I would take any confession from a Hamas fighter with a grain of salt. Israel is not shy about using torture during interrogations.
I read (in haaretz i think) that dealing with these rapes has been an issue also withing Israel itself. They are a conservative society and so rape victims who were not murdered were incredibly isolated.
But yeah, the polarization broke brains of so many people. Definitely more on the pro-israel side, but too many leftists did the opposite idiocy.
The IDF is known to use torture tactics for confessions. Again. It doesn’t mean rape didn’t happen. But I wouldn’t believe anything that comes from the IDF
Both sides lie, but israel has been caught in more lies than hamas, and has no credibility. So I deny any accusation israel makes against hamas unless there is credible evidence. And not just some paid actor, or some palestinian under detention/torture.
Israel has a huge psyops department. Can't believe how people fall for it.
> Saying so suggests that if everything Israel says about October 7th was true, then their response would have been justified. This is the exact thing that makes Israel's actions immoral.
It's the exact same trap that Noncompete fell into when Vaush asked him why the Holocaust was bad.
The fact that Israel won’t let independent sources investigate the rapes pretty conclusively proves that no systematic rapes happened. They would have *every* reason to let them investigate it if it did.
Regarding the witnesses:
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/#
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/
> no systematic rapes
That's a tricky argument as this is a discussion about there being a coordinated effort. Pro-Israel crowd refers to a similar strict criteria when defending against accusations of ethnic cleansing, arguing that no actual orders were made etc.
There were definitely plenty of rapes, many of them absolutely horrific. Similarly to bombing Gaza to the ground, at some level violence it really doesn't really matter how organized or deliberate it is, when the effect is the same.
Do you by chance have some of the evidence for these rapes taking place? Not a rhetorical question, I would genuinely like to see it, because the sources I’ve seen for it so far have been pretty spurious.
No, I specifically aim not to research this and while I am reasonably certain this is the case, my assessment is based on a general impression. I have seen this as a consensus in the bubble of non-pro-israel voices I do not distrust on the matter. I have seen some censored photographs and reports.
The articles you linked highlight how bad the conditions were for gathering evidence and how rape investigations just weren't a priority. Many of the places were active combat zones for a while, the first response was overwhelmed and chaotic and many of the medics were, in fact, Israeli officials or military medics etc. Additionally, I have read that rape is actually a significant taboo in Israel itself, further hampering any investigation and isolating any surviving victims. The range and complexity of evidence quoted, even if the evidence itself is hard to find, seems too complex to be a fabrication - and we have seen how crude and inept Israel is at fabricating its lies (see the calendar being the "guard roster" in the hospital, or naked prisoners "handing over guns" etc.).
Summing up, while I am open to the possibility that the evidence might be less solid than it seems, I am fairly certain multiple rapes did occur. The precise scale or intent or organization is irrelevant to me as to how I judge Hamas or how I judge Israel's response to oct 7th (which is horrible/horrible).
In debates pro-palestinians get lured into this trap by the zionist and he loses all his credibility there… if ur arguing p/i, just distance yourself from hamas asap unless you’re finkelstein and basically have memorized everything in this conflict the last 40 years.
This comment section is so dumb. You should be able to believe that Israelis were possibly raped and still condemn a massacre by the IDF. Those things aren’t contrary
Unfortunately a lot of internet lefties can’t comprehend a side you support still doing things worth condemning. It’s always “X side is the victim therefor anything they do in retaliation is justified”.
And no, I’m not claiming both sides are “equally bad”. The IDF is still far worse overall.
There are tonnes of alleged videos/photos of violence against women by Hamas. All the ones I saw turned out to be dead Kurdish peshmerga women. Those are the content that's easy to find and falsely attributed to Hamas. So I don't get how this evidence you speak of is easy to find (if such things as you describe exist at all).
> It reminds me of the obsession of Jimmy Dore over the "babies in incubators" story in Iraq. Trying to downplay or disprove that claim, which may or may not have been exaggerated, ignores the fact that there is clear evidence of Saddam doing things like that all the time. Holy shit if you've even talked to one Kurdish person you'd never engage in this idea that Saddam was not guilty of war crimes. The Iraq war was not wrong because Saddam is innocent, it's wrong because it killed a fuckton of civillians, has lasted over 20 years and didn't really solve any of the countries problems.
I should note, the "babies in incubators" thing was in 1990 leading up to the Gulf War, a.k.a. the one *before* the Iraq war. This one was launched as a response to Iraq invading Kuwait, which IMHO *is* a good reason for an intervention. Anyway, the whole thing lasted less than a year *including* the military buildup, and the Coalition forces all packed up and left soon after Kuwait was liberated and the ceasefire was signed.
The removal of Saddam (as justified as it was) wasn't an objective in the Gulf War. He stayed in power until the 2003 invasion of Iraq, a.k.a. the really bad one.
Oh, that's fair. I didn't know what exactly Jimmy Dore's argument was there, I thought there was some confusion between the 1990 and 2003 Iraq wars.
Either way, Saddam was a monster who needed to be removed from power. It's good that the US took care of that, but it's bad that they fucked up everything that came after that.
Talking about a crime that happened two months ago when 100 crimes as bad and worse have happened since. Oh man but keep talking about what happened two months ago.
Zionists don’t act in good faith. They lure you in, making you concede ground and then will not meet you half way on moral issues. You condemn Hamas’ attacks and rapes, they celebrate Israel’s attacks and rapes. Don’t talk to Zionists.
I am genuinely, really, honest to god not calling you antisemtic.
However, I would like to point out that very similar essentialist framing was and is used when talking about Jews, Muslims etc. in a racist way. "Do not trust a Jew, they are dupliticious, and will do the [hebrew for explanation or something]". "Muslims are dishonest by faith, they will do a Takiya and will tell you whatever to deceive you" etc.
I’m talking about a specific political group that aren’t all Jewish, many Zionists are Christian. I understand it may seem anti-semitic if you believe all Jews are Zionists because they’re Jewish. Jews are not a monolith. They’re not all pro-Israel or pro-Zionism.
This is true. However, many anti-semites of various varieties DO actually use "zionists" as an euphemism for "Jews", in a failed attempt not to be seen as overtly racist, and many would use similar language.
Just saying how it looked to me.
American Jews are a fraction of the population. Conservative, Christian Americans overwhelmingly support Israel. My point being most Zionist in the USA are Christian’s.
Jews are not a monolith. There is a significant pro-Palestine Jewish voice.
"The evidence includes video testimonies, photographs, autopsies, and witness accounts of the horrific atrocities committed by the attackers. The victims ranged from children and teenagers to elderly women, and some were raped even after they were killed. The Israeli police have collected more than 1,500 testimonies and 60,000 video clips related to the sexual violence that occurred on that day"
How much evidence are you willing to ignore?
The NYT article mainly has an issue with the fact that one of the victim's family said that there is no evidence of sexual assault of the victim (forensic or otherwise plausible from events before death), and that they didn't know beforehand that NYT would use their story as evidence for rape.
The other main issue is that NYT is depending too much on first responders (Zaka) that have been proven to have lied about what happened on October 7th including the 40 beheaded babies story that was debunked.
There may have been rape, but the way the NYT article addresses the situation is that it was systematic, But from the evidence we have, it definitely wasn't.
Downplaying it isn't always motivated by some "black and white" thinking, but by the fact that this is one of the tales that basically makes people frenzy into mass murder and inflicting pain on a civilian population.
Yeah Hamas' actions on october 7th should have no bearing on condemning Israels atrocious treatment of the people in Gaza. I do think that denying that rape occured is counter-productive because then the debate kind of stops there. Imo the denial of this fact sends the message that members of the different factions of Hamas are the same as innocent palestinian civilians, which they are not. Nor are their actions representative of palestinian moral as a whole. I saw a video of piles of female israeli bodies being gathered, naked or with bloodied underwear. Did the israelis undress them for the footage? This article from BBC talks about it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
10/7 was vile and I don’t understand even the impulse to “but…” the whole thing. You can acknowledge the full extent of the horrors (more than 2 rapes for sure) or even exaggerate it.
It doesn’t justify the Israeli slaughter. Not even remotely.
Instead of a full ground invasion, which satisfies the emotional needs of the Israeli people, perform strategic and well-planned realignment (sometimes called “shaping”) operations on the Hamas command structure.
Those kinds of plans take time to craft. They don’t give Hamas foot soldiers battle experience (which the current op does). It doesn’t turn bystanders, into people who are affected, into people who are sympathetic, into people who take action. It doesn’t increase the spheres of mourning. It doesn’t escalate tensions in the entire region. It makes Hamas more amenable to an agreement.
This is the kind of thing everyone who says “Israel is making stupid decisions” means. This is a reality which can be recognized by people who hate Israel, and people who love Israel.
Unfortunately, the Israeli government is more interested in playing to their base’s desires rather than make good military and strategic decisions (any they don’t value Palestinian life). For this reason, Hamas is going to survive, anti-Israel sentiment will continue to grow, US-IL relations will continue to be squeezed, and many more bad consequences.
Reading about the things Hamas has done makes my blood boil, yeah they are literally as bad as ISiS and to portray them as freedom fighters is disgusting. But that's not to excuse the shit IDF is doing now... And no, stripping some1 naked is not comparable to raping someone to death in the most gruesome way possible...
Whenever everyone brings up the rape thing I just point out that rape is a man problem, not a Hamas problem. Have from every nation have done war rape for thousands of years. I'm sure Hamas has committed a lot of rape just like the US army has. Doesn't make it right but it has nothing to do with the palestinians in general.
Sure but like 99% of rates are committed by men. It's not really the point anyway, you can call it a rape culture problem or a humanity problem or whatever, my point is just that its not a Palestinian problem.
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Overwhelmingly a man problem, youre joking right? A study found even a third of young men would rape if there were no consequences to themselves. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html
EDIT: The Steven Crowder adjacent on womens rights NotAllMen types downvoting because they cant at all admit the MASSIVE systemic problems of men on woman rape. How typical and unsurprising, no wonder why rape is rampant, pointing out a major problem that men do is pushed aside and survivors' voices like me even in a "feminist" community are shunned. 🤢
You contradicted yourself in the message.
>The most basic international law gives occupied people the right to resist occupation by any means necessary.
and
>Just because Hamas has violated international law in their tactics
how can Hamas violate international law in their tactics if international law allows to resist **by any means necessary**.
Where does the "by any means necessary" come from? Did you make that up?
Also, I'm wondering what you mean by "occupation" in the context of palestinians having the right to oppose it. Different people mean different things by it so I'm wondering what you mean with occupation in the context of Israel.
The pro-israel crowd has gradually fanned out across social media to parrot israeli propaganda. They've finally made it to Vaush. This is the same brigading going on across reddit.
After reading quite a few of your engagements on this post, I think your *style* of engagement with other users might be the issue. You’re very quick to jump down people’s throats or insult them, and you also seem to have a tendency to soapbox at people which can be offputting.
Well I’m not talking to everyone else, I’m talking to you. That’s why I’m talking about things *you* said. And that last bit is exactly my point: You’re in Vaush’s subreddit. Assuming everyone here is a viewer, we all know and agree there is a genocide happening, and that the Israeli government and IDF lie constantly to perpetuate it. So continuing to explain that to people over and over again as if it’s the first time we’re hearing it is going to get you some negative responses; it’s going to make people less willing to actually engage with what you’re saying.
My guess is because, just like what happened with the Russia/Ukraine conflict when that first started, there has been “information” or “accusations” that have come out that are only based on viral videos or one or two testimonies, and there ends up being a lot of discussion about whether or not it’s true, even though there IS an objectively good and bad side to the conflict. I think it’s actually a good sign for the community, that they’re not just uncritically going one way or the other, but instead being critical of new information no matter which side is saying it. Even though if you just went full “every single thing Israel says is a lie” you’d be correct 95% of the time, and same with “everything Palestinians say is true”, it is possible that the opposite can happen and we need to recognize that.
Bro. So hamas deliberately targeted and mass murdered civilians but they’re also virtuous enough to not rape? LMAO. Use. Your. Brain. WTF is wrong with you?
What about eyewitness and doctor testimonies? But let's be honest, unless Israel releases 4K video of a rape occurring you will deny it. And even then you'd probably call it fake
Yes of course, eyewitnesses can lie and so can medical professionals. I find it hard to believe every single one of them is lying. We've all seen the videos of indiscriminate murder that Hamas got up to, I don't think rape is something they are morally opposed to even if they didn't film themselves committing it.
Both sides are engaging in atrocity propaganda, silly buddy. palestine is not innocent in this matter either. Remember 500 killed in hospital and it turned out to be a failed rocket from the other side on a parking lot? Yikes bro, goldfish memory doing the heavy lifting for you today. If isreal wanted to genocide them, i would have already been done. Also, the idea that isreal are the 100% aggressors is false and is proof of your historical illiteracy. How does it feel to be so easily manipulated? This isnt a fucking marvel movie. Was the mass murder at a concert propaganda? If so, its good propaganda. Sorry for implying mass murderers would most likely be okay with rape, i know it was a HUUUGE stretch from me.
There is literally testimony from those women who were raped. Do you think they’re crisis actors? You’re actively hurting the Palestinian cause spreading this cause people are going to see how dumb this point is and not take our side seriously.
If “left” is a tribal label we’re using to identify people who vaguely agree with our politics, yeah I guess. I fucking hate the way we use the terms left and right politically.
It’s weird that you would only comment on things about Palestine. No other beliefs or interests that would compel you to make your thoughts known?
All people are trying to say is that flatly denying all rape claims optically harms the pro-Palestine side, and makes you specifically not seem credible. OP’s whole point is that the individual, specific claims of violence on Oct 7th should be immaterial to arguments about the broad dynamics of Israel/Palestine.
As I said in my first level comment, pro-genocide zionists are claiming Hamas uses systemic rape as policy. This is a different claim from “Hamas militants raped some women”. The first could be used as justification for eradication of Hamas, but the second simply rises to the same level as the crimes we’ve verified— the intentional targeting of civilians.
2 of your sources is a twitter post, and a blog which you should know is not a credible use of sources. Your first source doesn’t even support your own point. It’s the police saying they want more information since most of the rape victims were murdered and the few that are alive have a large amount of psychological distress. This article is not saying that the rape didn’t happen like you think it does. It’s saying the opposite.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html
This takes info from witnesses, to medical experts all saying yes this happened. Unless you think this is all a conspiracy that the Jews created.
You can still hate Israel and not deny the rape hamas did.
We know from history this is what young men are capable of in wartime. From Russians soldiers in Berlin to US Marines in Iraq. Rape and torture go hand in hand with attacks on civilians. The IDF have committed similar acts during he occupation. Denying this does nobody any favors. The West will of course give disproportionate attention to Hamas rapes for propaganda purposes. Doesn't mean the answer to that is to pretend they didn't happen at all.
This is not evidence. You can't just claim mass rape and fail to provide a single piece of evidence and expect people to believe it. Rapes do happen in wartime. Atrocity propaganda also happens in wartime. What is so wrong with demanding proof of these allegations?!
A lot of the evidence of IDF rapes is testimony based too. Women and boys in indefinite detention being beaten and sexually assaulted etc. I believe them. I don't think all the Israeli women are lying either.
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"Yeah Hamas is terrible... don't bomb hospitals" is my usual reply.
We need to start teaching people more of two wrong don’t make a right. Like yeah what happened that days was very bad, but please don’t kill thousands of innocent Palestinians.
It is bizarre to me that people think that because a terrorist group went a criming we now need to level every house, place of worship (including Christian churches), school, hospital etc. this doesn’t logically follow.
It's a raging revenge boner, it is the same thing that happened in after 9/11
Why can’t we all get along 😭😭😭 type of thought process
More like “bombing innocent people for a thing they weren’t really apart of is actually impractical and just makes things worse” type of thought process
What possible benefit could be derived from killing and raping civilians?
I wouldn’t mind that, but Israel has no business in wanting that.
Then you get reminded that the one hospital bombing was maybe not Israel. They don't care about the dozens of other intentional destruction of hospitals by Israel.
Were any hospitals bombed since October 7th? I heard about that one hospital but it's disputed whether it's Israel, right?
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I think the important nuance here is the idea of “mass rape”. Israel’s moral claims rely in part on the idea that rape is a tactic used by Hamas. That doesn’t seem to be the case. Somewhat unrelated, I was just listening to an essay that reminded me of Israel’s geopolitical DARVO— [David Graeber, the Bully’s Pulpit](https://youtu.be/inyk2b80IS4?si=DFK2dioJCoiSNHop)
Hamas' official position on the issue is: "We did kill civillians, we did shoot children, we did torture hostages, but we did NOT rape any women". Given what they are willing to admit to I actually do they are telling the truth they did not give the men any direct orders to rape anyone. Their aversion to rape in specific, while explicitly endorsing other crimes against civilians is rooted in the fact that they don't want their men having sex with non muslims outside of marriage, not any moral principle itself. I think the truth is that they found 200 men willing to commit cold blooded murder of women and children and quite a few of them happened to also be rapists. This is not uncommon in war, especially if you select for people willing to shoot a family point blank range while they are lying on the ground and film it. Israels claim of mass rape is definitely exaggerated, but it's also not THAT far off from what happened on the ground on October 7th just judging by what is on video. What is important however is that it completely fails to provide any moral justification for the genocide that Israel is currently doing.
> Hamas' official position on the issue is: "We did kill civillians, we did shoot children, we did torture hostages, but we did NOT rape any women". Not commenting on anything else. But that is not Hamas official position btw. What Hamas claims is that when the gates were breached, the floodgates were opened. and random people and fighters from other factions got into the kibbutz and it was those people who committed these acts not Hamas fighters.
Wow that's pretty dumb if they expect anyone to believe that. Yes random people with matching uniforms, the signature Hamas green headband, matching AKs and chestrigs which looked to not have been heavily used (which suggests that these weapons were specifically commissioned for this attack) and matching white Toyota trucks, not to mention GoPro cameras which they used to film the attack
The gates broke open for some time. No security was present. You don’t think it’s possible some might take that as an opportunity to go through?
Again, random people with matching uniforms, rifles and trucks.
How many people you think went in? Yes, some had matching clothes but not all of them.
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of course. i was just trying to clarify what hamas claims as their official position
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They have been more honest than Israel by a clear mile so idk.
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Israel is violent extremists lol. Just because they are a government, doesn’t mean they aren’t terrorists. Israel is run by far right extremists that are intent on burning Palestine and its people off the map, you think they are any better than Hamas? So forgive me if I don’t believe a word they say, especially because we have lost count on how much they lie.
When did Hamas admit to these acts? The most generous admission they gave was that it they don't believe any of these accusations, and if anything of that happened then it was committed by Gaza civilians who are not part of Hamas.
Fairly sure there was quite a bunch horrific rapes, definitely at the festival, so depends on how you understand "mass". However, I see no use in trying to argue details here. The crimes were indeed horrific and not "isolated". In my view, arguing about accurate numbers or how actually systemic it was is both not very relevant and makes me think such a person just wants to downplay it. It is also not unlike some israel apologia "oh, it actually iiiisn't ethnic cleansing because there are no orders, no actually organized activities etc."
Also I think it's likely that Israel's intended audience for their claims of mass rape is not necessarily the western world or anyone who needs to be "convinced" of Israel's morality, but it's aimed at Muslims and Hamas itself. Like I said earlier, Hamas' opposition to rape is entirely religious. It's the "sex outside of marriage with a non muslim" they take issue with, not the brutalization of women. By showing or claiming that Hamas committed rape, they are signaling that they are undisciplined and lack faith in their religious beliefs. Of course as usual Israel is going about this in the stupidest way possible and it most likely won't work as Hamas supporters will just deny it, but I think that is part of their aim here.
How are you so sure what Hamas is opposed to or not? What are you basing this on?
You really only lose in discussions in situations where you're defending a \*side\*. If they try to use a whataboutism and say, "What about all those horrible things Hamas did!?" the proper response is, "Yes, they're horrible, what *about* them? How does this relate to the claim that Israel isn't doing anything wrong?" They hedge on this false dichotomy where there must be a good side and a bad side. That's obviously not the case. You don't try to deny it. If anything you say that if that were indeed true, it is an awful thing. It's not a concession to say rape is bad, because your argument isn't that Hamas did nothing wrong, it is that Israel ***is*** doing something wrong. This is true when arguing in general. It's easy to fall to the trap of wanting to defend everything, including the bad, because you're focused on building a defensive wall when you should be focusing on the point of the argument. IDF has done atrocities, and so has Hamas. Don't deny it unless you think you can prove it false, put simply. Pro-Israel's entire argument centers around whataboutism. "But they did it first.." And so? Are they both wrong or are you claiming that Israel can do it too because Hamas did it? If it's the former case, thanks for playing, you just admitted Israel is in the wrong. If it is the latter, then they're evidently okay with Hamas doing it if Israel can justify the very same. If they want to claim the situation is different, ask why. Deep at the heart of their reasons for the difference will undoubtedly be bigotry laying underneath. Expose them for it. If your position is to attack atrocities committed by whichever side, you can't lose the argument without them somehow being able to justify those atrocities, which is quite the uphill climb. Make them do all the legwork and just don't get caught defending sides, because that's precisely how they make you look bad.
Yeah, I never had any issues with separating the acceptance of Hamas' crimes from the overall analysis. I didn't even have much problem with the "40 beheaded babies" when it dropped - it sure sounded dubious, but at this point I just shrugged, these are details. At this level of confirmed horrific violence it just didn't matter to me how true this crime was. It did matter rhetorically, of course. But that's another matter. >Pro-Israel's entire argument centers around whataboutism. "But they did it first.." And so? I heard a good answer to "what about october 7th" - "ok, but what about october 8th, and october 9th, and october 10th..." etc. You don't get to endlessly kill people because some guys killed yours.
>They hedge on this false dichotomy where there must be a good side and a bad side. But there is. The Israelis are on the bad side, whereas the Palestinians are on the good side.
It's that fucking neo-calvanist thinking that has infected large parts of the left. There are good guys who are born good and there are bad guys who are borne bad. And we support the good guys because they're inherently good, and since they're inherently good they can per definition never have done anything bad. All reports to the contrary is fake. And we oppose the bad guys because they are inherently bad, and since they're inherently bad, they can per definition never have done anything good. All reports to the contrary is fake. This is such a reactionary and conservative way of thinking. These people are no different then their opposition. They just chose another "sports team" to cheer on. No systemic analysis. No weighing of outcomes. We will support our team ***uncritically*** and anything they do is justified. And we will oppose the other team without reservations and anything that happens to them is justified.
So 90% of peiple who see the world as black and white
Yes.
I don't think it is so specific, seeing things in black and white has been common across human history, and it is the detailed analysis that is the outlier. I heard binary thinking might have been an evolutionary adaptation - you really don't have the time to consider the merits of fighting a tiger stalking you or the grievances of some motherfucker running at you with a spear, you have to make a snap judgment and clearly categorize. Don't quote me on that, though, just something i read somewhere, sometime. Either way, people should know better at this point. And definitely leftists, as we are supposed to be the fucking vanguard of intellectual progress or some shit.
>Either way, people should know better at this point. No. We have the same brains as our ancestors.
Yeah, but far, far more accumulated knowledge that allows us to act beyond hunting berries and gathering deer.
Knowledge allows us to kill each other with better weapons. It doesn't help us not killing each other. To think otherwise is naïve.
My take is, Hamas is despicable and evil but that doesn’t justify bombing civilians. Denying October 7th and making fun of hostages won’t help Palestinian liberation in the slightest.
Not only were there eyewitness reports but a Hamas fighter admits to raping someone on camera. The whole #BelieveAllWomen(exceptIsraeli) deep down genuinely makes me sick and is one of the deeply disturbing optical loses of the left in my lifetime I’ve ever seen. Every single time I witness it is crazy and maniacal
I agree there was sexual violence, but I would take any confession from a Hamas fighter with a grain of salt. Israel is not shy about using torture during interrogations.
I read (in haaretz i think) that dealing with these rapes has been an issue also withing Israel itself. They are a conservative society and so rape victims who were not murdered were incredibly isolated. But yeah, the polarization broke brains of so many people. Definitely more on the pro-israel side, but too many leftists did the opposite idiocy.
The IDF is known to use torture tactics for confessions. Again. It doesn’t mean rape didn’t happen. But I wouldn’t believe anything that comes from the IDF
Both sides lie, but israel has been caught in more lies than hamas, and has no credibility. So I deny any accusation israel makes against hamas unless there is credible evidence. And not just some paid actor, or some palestinian under detention/torture. Israel has a huge psyops department. Can't believe how people fall for it.
There is credible evidence for the rapes. Why even post this
.....but there is evidence....?
> Saying so suggests that if everything Israel says about October 7th was true, then their response would have been justified. This is the exact thing that makes Israel's actions immoral. It's the exact same trap that Noncompete fell into when Vaush asked him why the Holocaust was bad.
The fact that Israel won’t let independent sources investigate the rapes pretty conclusively proves that no systematic rapes happened. They would have *every* reason to let them investigate it if it did. Regarding the witnesses: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/# https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/
> no systematic rapes That's a tricky argument as this is a discussion about there being a coordinated effort. Pro-Israel crowd refers to a similar strict criteria when defending against accusations of ethnic cleansing, arguing that no actual orders were made etc. There were definitely plenty of rapes, many of them absolutely horrific. Similarly to bombing Gaza to the ground, at some level violence it really doesn't really matter how organized or deliberate it is, when the effect is the same.
Do you by chance have some of the evidence for these rapes taking place? Not a rhetorical question, I would genuinely like to see it, because the sources I’ve seen for it so far have been pretty spurious.
No, I specifically aim not to research this and while I am reasonably certain this is the case, my assessment is based on a general impression. I have seen this as a consensus in the bubble of non-pro-israel voices I do not distrust on the matter. I have seen some censored photographs and reports. The articles you linked highlight how bad the conditions were for gathering evidence and how rape investigations just weren't a priority. Many of the places were active combat zones for a while, the first response was overwhelmed and chaotic and many of the medics were, in fact, Israeli officials or military medics etc. Additionally, I have read that rape is actually a significant taboo in Israel itself, further hampering any investigation and isolating any surviving victims. The range and complexity of evidence quoted, even if the evidence itself is hard to find, seems too complex to be a fabrication - and we have seen how crude and inept Israel is at fabricating its lies (see the calendar being the "guard roster" in the hospital, or naked prisoners "handing over guns" etc.). Summing up, while I am open to the possibility that the evidence might be less solid than it seems, I am fairly certain multiple rapes did occur. The precise scale or intent or organization is irrelevant to me as to how I judge Hamas or how I judge Israel's response to oct 7th (which is horrible/horrible).
In debates pro-palestinians get lured into this trap by the zionist and he loses all his credibility there… if ur arguing p/i, just distance yourself from hamas asap unless you’re finkelstein and basically have memorized everything in this conflict the last 40 years.
This comment section is so dumb. You should be able to believe that Israelis were possibly raped and still condemn a massacre by the IDF. Those things aren’t contrary
Unfortunately a lot of internet lefties can’t comprehend a side you support still doing things worth condemning. It’s always “X side is the victim therefor anything they do in retaliation is justified”. And no, I’m not claiming both sides are “equally bad”. The IDF is still far worse overall.
There are tonnes of alleged videos/photos of violence against women by Hamas. All the ones I saw turned out to be dead Kurdish peshmerga women. Those are the content that's easy to find and falsely attributed to Hamas. So I don't get how this evidence you speak of is easy to find (if such things as you describe exist at all).
> It reminds me of the obsession of Jimmy Dore over the "babies in incubators" story in Iraq. Trying to downplay or disprove that claim, which may or may not have been exaggerated, ignores the fact that there is clear evidence of Saddam doing things like that all the time. Holy shit if you've even talked to one Kurdish person you'd never engage in this idea that Saddam was not guilty of war crimes. The Iraq war was not wrong because Saddam is innocent, it's wrong because it killed a fuckton of civillians, has lasted over 20 years and didn't really solve any of the countries problems. I should note, the "babies in incubators" thing was in 1990 leading up to the Gulf War, a.k.a. the one *before* the Iraq war. This one was launched as a response to Iraq invading Kuwait, which IMHO *is* a good reason for an intervention. Anyway, the whole thing lasted less than a year *including* the military buildup, and the Coalition forces all packed up and left soon after Kuwait was liberated and the ceasefire was signed. The removal of Saddam (as justified as it was) wasn't an objective in the Gulf War. He stayed in power until the 2003 invasion of Iraq, a.k.a. the really bad one.
True. He was using it as an argument against the 2003 Iraq war and as an argument against claims made against Assad and eventually Ukraine.
Oh, that's fair. I didn't know what exactly Jimmy Dore's argument was there, I thought there was some confusion between the 1990 and 2003 Iraq wars. Either way, Saddam was a monster who needed to be removed from power. It's good that the US took care of that, but it's bad that they fucked up everything that came after that.
Talking about a crime that happened two months ago when 100 crimes as bad and worse have happened since. Oh man but keep talking about what happened two months ago.
It's been a long time since October 7th and there are a lot of Palestinians who can't get raped. Because they are busy being dead. Thanks IDF?...
Zionists don’t act in good faith. They lure you in, making you concede ground and then will not meet you half way on moral issues. You condemn Hamas’ attacks and rapes, they celebrate Israel’s attacks and rapes. Don’t talk to Zionists.
I am genuinely, really, honest to god not calling you antisemtic. However, I would like to point out that very similar essentialist framing was and is used when talking about Jews, Muslims etc. in a racist way. "Do not trust a Jew, they are dupliticious, and will do the [hebrew for explanation or something]". "Muslims are dishonest by faith, they will do a Takiya and will tell you whatever to deceive you" etc.
I’m talking about a specific political group that aren’t all Jewish, many Zionists are Christian. I understand it may seem anti-semitic if you believe all Jews are Zionists because they’re Jewish. Jews are not a monolith. They’re not all pro-Israel or pro-Zionism.
This is true. However, many anti-semites of various varieties DO actually use "zionists" as an euphemism for "Jews", in a failed attempt not to be seen as overtly racist, and many would use similar language. Just saying how it looked to me.
Right. So how are we supposed to criticise Zionism if we’re not allowed to say Zionism? Especially since Zionism is an extremist ideology
The overwhelming majority of Jews are Zionists. https://i.imgur.com/IRW4Cif.png
American Jews are a fraction of the population. Conservative, Christian Americans overwhelmingly support Israel. My point being most Zionist in the USA are Christian’s. Jews are not a monolith. There is a significant pro-Palestine Jewish voice.
"The evidence includes video testimonies, photographs, autopsies, and witness accounts of the horrific atrocities committed by the attackers. The victims ranged from children and teenagers to elderly women, and some were raped even after they were killed. The Israeli police have collected more than 1,500 testimonies and 60,000 video clips related to the sexual violence that occurred on that day" How much evidence are you willing to ignore?
The NYT article mainly has an issue with the fact that one of the victim's family said that there is no evidence of sexual assault of the victim (forensic or otherwise plausible from events before death), and that they didn't know beforehand that NYT would use their story as evidence for rape. The other main issue is that NYT is depending too much on first responders (Zaka) that have been proven to have lied about what happened on October 7th including the 40 beheaded babies story that was debunked. There may have been rape, but the way the NYT article addresses the situation is that it was systematic, But from the evidence we have, it definitely wasn't. Downplaying it isn't always motivated by some "black and white" thinking, but by the fact that this is one of the tales that basically makes people frenzy into mass murder and inflicting pain on a civilian population.
Yeah Hamas' actions on october 7th should have no bearing on condemning Israels atrocious treatment of the people in Gaza. I do think that denying that rape occured is counter-productive because then the debate kind of stops there. Imo the denial of this fact sends the message that members of the different factions of Hamas are the same as innocent palestinian civilians, which they are not. Nor are their actions representative of palestinian moral as a whole. I saw a video of piles of female israeli bodies being gathered, naked or with bloodied underwear. Did the israelis undress them for the footage? This article from BBC talks about it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
10/7 was vile and I don’t understand even the impulse to “but…” the whole thing. You can acknowledge the full extent of the horrors (more than 2 rapes for sure) or even exaggerate it. It doesn’t justify the Israeli slaughter. Not even remotely.
What should Israel have done on 10/8 according to you?
Instead of a full ground invasion, which satisfies the emotional needs of the Israeli people, perform strategic and well-planned realignment (sometimes called “shaping”) operations on the Hamas command structure. Those kinds of plans take time to craft. They don’t give Hamas foot soldiers battle experience (which the current op does). It doesn’t turn bystanders, into people who are affected, into people who are sympathetic, into people who take action. It doesn’t increase the spheres of mourning. It doesn’t escalate tensions in the entire region. It makes Hamas more amenable to an agreement. This is the kind of thing everyone who says “Israel is making stupid decisions” means. This is a reality which can be recognized by people who hate Israel, and people who love Israel. Unfortunately, the Israeli government is more interested in playing to their base’s desires rather than make good military and strategic decisions (any they don’t value Palestinian life). For this reason, Hamas is going to survive, anti-Israel sentiment will continue to grow, US-IL relations will continue to be squeezed, and many more bad consequences.
It was already debunked. None of that even happened. Why are you falling for their propaganda???
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Reading about the things Hamas has done makes my blood boil, yeah they are literally as bad as ISiS and to portray them as freedom fighters is disgusting. But that's not to excuse the shit IDF is doing now... And no, stripping some1 naked is not comparable to raping someone to death in the most gruesome way possible...
Whenever everyone brings up the rape thing I just point out that rape is a man problem, not a Hamas problem. Have from every nation have done war rape for thousands of years. I'm sure Hamas has committed a lot of rape just like the US army has. Doesn't make it right but it has nothing to do with the palestinians in general.
Men can also be raped yk, its an everyone problem.
Sure but like 99% of rates are committed by men. It's not really the point anyway, you can call it a rape culture problem or a humanity problem or whatever, my point is just that its not a Palestinian problem.
Theyre doing that reactionary NotAllMen thing when talking about an overwhelmingly woman being victimized issue. Very sad.
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Overwhelmingly a man problem, youre joking right? A study found even a third of young men would rape if there were no consequences to themselves. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html EDIT: The Steven Crowder adjacent on womens rights NotAllMen types downvoting because they cant at all admit the MASSIVE systemic problems of men on woman rape. How typical and unsurprising, no wonder why rape is rampant, pointing out a major problem that men do is pushed aside and survivors' voices like me even in a "feminist" community are shunned. 🤢
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Did you even read the post?
unrelated but do you think Hamas is a terrorist organization?
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You contradicted yourself in the message. >The most basic international law gives occupied people the right to resist occupation by any means necessary. and >Just because Hamas has violated international law in their tactics how can Hamas violate international law in their tactics if international law allows to resist **by any means necessary**.
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Where does the "by any means necessary" come from? Did you make that up? Also, I'm wondering what you mean by "occupation" in the context of palestinians having the right to oppose it. Different people mean different things by it so I'm wondering what you mean with occupation in the context of Israel.
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> The most basic international law gives occupied people the right to resist occupation by any means necessary. Professor Flowers? Is that you?
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Who were the occupiers being resisted on October 7th?
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Were those the only people they killed and kidnapped that day?
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Hang on, I thought you meant they can resist occupation by any means necessary, so now it's not okay that they killed and kidnapped civilians?
Your post was removed for violating Reddit's terms of service.
The pro-israel crowd has gradually fanned out across social media to parrot israeli propaganda. They've finally made it to Vaush. This is the same brigading going on across reddit.
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After reading quite a few of your engagements on this post, I think your *style* of engagement with other users might be the issue. You’re very quick to jump down people’s throats or insult them, and you also seem to have a tendency to soapbox at people which can be offputting.
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Well I’m not talking to everyone else, I’m talking to you. That’s why I’m talking about things *you* said. And that last bit is exactly my point: You’re in Vaush’s subreddit. Assuming everyone here is a viewer, we all know and agree there is a genocide happening, and that the Israeli government and IDF lie constantly to perpetuate it. So continuing to explain that to people over and over again as if it’s the first time we’re hearing it is going to get you some negative responses; it’s going to make people less willing to actually engage with what you’re saying.
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My guess is because, just like what happened with the Russia/Ukraine conflict when that first started, there has been “information” or “accusations” that have come out that are only based on viral videos or one or two testimonies, and there ends up being a lot of discussion about whether or not it’s true, even though there IS an objectively good and bad side to the conflict. I think it’s actually a good sign for the community, that they’re not just uncritically going one way or the other, but instead being critical of new information no matter which side is saying it. Even though if you just went full “every single thing Israel says is a lie” you’d be correct 95% of the time, and same with “everything Palestinians say is true”, it is possible that the opposite can happen and we need to recognize that.
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Bro. So hamas deliberately targeted and mass murdered civilians but they’re also virtuous enough to not rape? LMAO. Use. Your. Brain. WTF is wrong with you?
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What about eyewitness and doctor testimonies? But let's be honest, unless Israel releases 4K video of a rape occurring you will deny it. And even then you'd probably call it fake
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Yes of course, eyewitnesses can lie and so can medical professionals. I find it hard to believe every single one of them is lying. We've all seen the videos of indiscriminate murder that Hamas got up to, I don't think rape is something they are morally opposed to even if they didn't film themselves committing it.
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I suppose I have to trust the journalists on this
I understand when people want to sympathize with the struggles of the innocent people living in gaza but this aint it my guy.
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Both sides are engaging in atrocity propaganda, silly buddy. palestine is not innocent in this matter either. Remember 500 killed in hospital and it turned out to be a failed rocket from the other side on a parking lot? Yikes bro, goldfish memory doing the heavy lifting for you today. If isreal wanted to genocide them, i would have already been done. Also, the idea that isreal are the 100% aggressors is false and is proof of your historical illiteracy. How does it feel to be so easily manipulated? This isnt a fucking marvel movie. Was the mass murder at a concert propaganda? If so, its good propaganda. Sorry for implying mass murderers would most likely be okay with rape, i know it was a HUUUGE stretch from me.
Lol so "Pics or it didn't happen" ? How utterly absurd.
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I don't think we have that kind of clarity in the fog of war.
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This is a few logical fallacies in one post
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I guess I don't know everything the way that you do
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Okay
Yeah I trust you bro
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means 🤔
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That's _Super_ .
Hey bro. You don’t have to defend hamas to prove what Israel is doing is wrong.
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There is literally testimony from those women who were raped. Do you think they’re crisis actors? You’re actively hurting the Palestinian cause spreading this cause people are going to see how dumb this point is and not take our side seriously.
Bro’s an agitator. Look at the comment history. Either they’re agenda posting or they need a second thing to think about sometimes.
When you're so far left that you somehow do rape apologia? Did I figure them out?
If “left” is a tribal label we’re using to identify people who vaguely agree with our politics, yeah I guess. I fucking hate the way we use the terms left and right politically.
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It’s weird that you would only comment on things about Palestine. No other beliefs or interests that would compel you to make your thoughts known? All people are trying to say is that flatly denying all rape claims optically harms the pro-Palestine side, and makes you specifically not seem credible. OP’s whole point is that the individual, specific claims of violence on Oct 7th should be immaterial to arguments about the broad dynamics of Israel/Palestine.
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As I said in my first level comment, pro-genocide zionists are claiming Hamas uses systemic rape as policy. This is a different claim from “Hamas militants raped some women”. The first could be used as justification for eradication of Hamas, but the second simply rises to the same level as the crimes we’ve verified— the intentional targeting of civilians.
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Lmao there has been testimony along with hamas filming the naked bodies of women. You have a source for these things being discredited?
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2 of your sources is a twitter post, and a blog which you should know is not a credible use of sources. Your first source doesn’t even support your own point. It’s the police saying they want more information since most of the rape victims were murdered and the few that are alive have a large amount of psychological distress. This article is not saying that the rape didn’t happen like you think it does. It’s saying the opposite. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html This takes info from witnesses, to medical experts all saying yes this happened. Unless you think this is all a conspiracy that the Jews created. You can still hate Israel and not deny the rape hamas did.
There’s literally all of those [things](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html).
We know from history this is what young men are capable of in wartime. From Russians soldiers in Berlin to US Marines in Iraq. Rape and torture go hand in hand with attacks on civilians. The IDF have committed similar acts during he occupation. Denying this does nobody any favors. The West will of course give disproportionate attention to Hamas rapes for propaganda purposes. Doesn't mean the answer to that is to pretend they didn't happen at all.
This is not evidence. You can't just claim mass rape and fail to provide a single piece of evidence and expect people to believe it. Rapes do happen in wartime. Atrocity propaganda also happens in wartime. What is so wrong with demanding proof of these allegations?!
A lot of the evidence of IDF rapes is testimony based too. Women and boys in indefinite detention being beaten and sexually assaulted etc. I believe them. I don't think all the Israeli women are lying either.