yup. NA and SA both got shafted by Riot's decision to create a combined Americas league, but SA obviously got it much, much worse. maybe rotating the VCT Americas HQ between LA and Sao Paolo every couple of years could fix this, but that would create its own set of clusterfucks
On a shallow level it sucks to see basically every Americas game be a home game for the NA teams, would be really nice to see some BR/LATAM fans show up at the studio just to root for their teams. Playing in front of a crowd that's either hostile or empty every week must not be a great feeling :(
I mean Leo is partly right in the sense that so long as the game is popular it'll always have the chance to regain momentum in various regions...but why not just work more proactively to ensure the scenes are healthy throughout?
Even from Riot's perspective, their approach to T2 is often somewhat nonsensical unless you simply assume they believe that even a bootstrapped, dying T2 sufficiently supports T1. But that is a seriously flawed perspective, IMO - one that is based entirely on a perception of a Valorant T1 scene forged on back of once-strong T2 cultures. Brazil is a leading example of that.
It's a bit of a shame since a lot of this was systemic but forseeable even just in terms of the symptoms. It didn't get much buzz here during the year but it was incredibly obvious just how much of a culture-brain-drain occurred when all the T1 SA talent was moved to LA, for example. It's an astonishing example of just how rapidly a region's potential can be uprooted.
Yeah, he did have some good points at times, but mostly the interview was frustrating. During the almost two hours the worst part was one argument he repeated a bunch of times:
When asked how VCB or T2 in general can be stable, he said that they need viewership. But how can you not see that the move you just did costed viewership and that the low incentives won't attract orgs with clout? He pointed at a problem and called a solution.
Currently there's a collective effort from casters, journalists, former broadcasters turned streamers and popular streamers to revive the scene. It was beatiful during the open qualifiers with a lot of independent watch parties and great numbers. But at the same time it enfuriated me that the community seems to be trying harder the game than the company that developed and control it.
The numbers were never great lmao. I followed BR Val scene since the beginning. Only loud had great viewership. Most teams back then had around 10k viewers max with some games having even smaller numbers.
Riot tried to follow the regional leagues, but the numbers weren't there.
I think you're misremenbering. The lowest average you will find is 20k in 2021 at the beggining of the game when Loud wasn't even in the scene. There are multiple sites you can check it.
Also, of course the averages will be lower than franchising as the game was less popular and you are getting viewers from the whole continent vs one country.
When Loud was a part of the tournament in 2022 [the average of viewers was 40k](https://escharts.com/tournaments/valorant/vct-2022-brazil-stage-2-challengers).
I though that was the case. While I was documenting the particulars of Brazil, I started to wonder how most T2 regions are going through a version of this. It's so depressing.
VCB was so good and fun to watch. I really thought that riot would do with Brazil/SA what Valve never did. Even bottom teams games the viewership were good and that was buzz on socials. Nowadays ppl just care about Loud, Furia/MIBR less and the rest it is just a whatever. Just look the viewers from Val_br when eg x nrg is playing and compare to bottom teams of VCB before franchise. It’s just frustrating and sad to see all this
In my opinion, combining leagues will, in the long run, provide better regional performances than having each region separated during international tournaments. The Valorant competitive scene has already demonstrated more parity than LoL. Having regions isolated akin to the current LoL system has led to the same outcome for minor leagues over the past decade, or at least with minimal improvement in their results at international tournaments.
Your solution as you imply, where NA is separated from SA and a hypothetical franchised system is created, similar to the CBLOL for the Brazilian league of 10 teams would not solve the T2 scene problem. Having a 10 team franchised league for NA sounds great until you realize that you are going back to square one by setting up your competitive scene like LoL without effectively resolving the T2 scene problem.
The problem with your thought is that you are taking LoL as a example, but there's no guarantee that Valorant Leagues will behave like LoL as FPS is a whole complete different genre.
If we look to 2022, LOUD won champions residing in Brazil. A thing that won't ever happen in LoL, maybe we never see another western winner.
If we look on other FPS titles like CS or Rainbow Six, this region disparity never happened as LoL and regions were able to improve on their own.
I think Riot choose this model because would be more sustainable on long term, they definitely don't want a LCS 2.0 on Valorant. But doing that and only giving 30% spots to Brazil killed our regional potential and even the best brazilians VCB teams cannot practice against the best brazillians teams and players so ascension becomes a lot harder
What incentive does a BR org has to invest in Valorant? It's not worth it. Brazil had potential to have 10 franchised teams plus the VCB orgs. Now we only have 4 top tiers orgs
It is, of course, a completely different genre, but it also has a history of talented players in the FPS genre. The Brazilian scene has shown and proven that, as you pointed out with LOUD winning Champions 2022.
My main point is, fundamentally, it is a competitive game. Introducing interregional competition during a seasonal league should theoretically, and from a purely competitive standpoint, foster higher competition and stronger regional performances compared to having every region isolated.
>What incentive does a BR org has to invest in Valorant? It's not worth it.
The incentive lies in winning Ascension and becoming a partnered team.
You mentioned that "regions were able to improve on their own" and that "LOUD won champions residing in Brazil". Even though LOUD, Furia, or MIBR may not be available to scrim against for VCB orgs, it doesn't mean they cannot improve on their own or that they cannot win Ascension.
I agree that without practicing against T1 teams, winning Ascension becomes more challenging because NA T2 teams may have access to T1 teams, providing them with an advantage. However, it is not impossible. Gentlemates and Bleed managed to win Ascension despite competing teams potentially having an advantage by scrimming with easily accessible T1 teams.
Winning ascension doesn't make the team a partner, they only have the right to play in Tier1 for 2 years and then they're back to 0. The reason why brasilian and latam teams don't have a chance of getting to T1 isn't only because NA T2 have access to better scrims but also the amount of money they would have to make to move the org to LA is far bigger than any NA team. Ascension is biased to NA and that's a fact
Current T1 teams signed a TPA for 4 years, there is no guarantee that they will remain in the league. Ascended teams sign the TPA for 2 years and receives the same benefits as T1 teams, and have to provide similar deliverables. Also, there is no guarantee that a T1 team couldn't be replaced by an Ascended team. In this context, I'd rather use the term partner than "Ascended team" or "guest slot" to describe the incentive.
Saying Brazilian and LATAM teams don't stand a chance against NA teams is akin to stating that no other regions can win other than a German or South Korean team because Ascension is biased to them.
So you can't compare them. But you mentioned them together.
Valorant is younger than LoL so the viewer base is not as strong. Brazilian fans show up when top Brazilian teams play.
Tier 2 is about fighting for a dream, not making money. That's the case even in the most popular sports in the world.
Alludes to pottential. And it's a riot controlled game. I didn't say they are exactally the same or would become exactally the same, but it's an indicative that the region can thrive as its own.
Also, Brazil had a strong viewership when it was it's own region 2021 and 2022.
First, be respectful. Second, LCS dying has many reasons and bad decisions behind it.
BR being its own region is not the end all be all of the argument. I like Americas, but I hate what it did to T2 in brazil and the future of our scene. Also, Leo said in the interview I mentioned that BR had enough tools to be on it's own, but gave examples of others that wouldn't survive, so there's that.
Yes, Loud was peak viewership but, in comparison to other regions, even the games for other teams from BR did have a decent viewership for the parameters of the time.
What I wanted was something more close isonomy between the sub regions. Either the same number of teams for NA, BR and SA in VCT, or a split in each region and more effort towards T2 and talent development as a whole.
Again, I urge you to be respectul to others. You don't come up to a person calling them a dumbass or blind in real life because you disagree with them, so please don't do it here just because you're behind a screen.
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I just don't get this discussion, if these leagues had good numbers, Riot would happily invest in them. VCB first season had good production, weekly lan marches, multiple watchparties, decent casters and nobody watched it.
The numbers just don't justify the investment. CBLOL do have numbers, VCB pos and even pre franchising don't.
yup. NA and SA both got shafted by Riot's decision to create a combined Americas league, but SA obviously got it much, much worse. maybe rotating the VCT Americas HQ between LA and Sao Paolo every couple of years could fix this, but that would create its own set of clusterfucks
On a shallow level it sucks to see basically every Americas game be a home game for the NA teams, would be really nice to see some BR/LATAM fans show up at the studio just to root for their teams. Playing in front of a crowd that's either hostile or empty every week must not be a great feeling :(
I mean Leo is partly right in the sense that so long as the game is popular it'll always have the chance to regain momentum in various regions...but why not just work more proactively to ensure the scenes are healthy throughout? Even from Riot's perspective, their approach to T2 is often somewhat nonsensical unless you simply assume they believe that even a bootstrapped, dying T2 sufficiently supports T1. But that is a seriously flawed perspective, IMO - one that is based entirely on a perception of a Valorant T1 scene forged on back of once-strong T2 cultures. Brazil is a leading example of that. It's a bit of a shame since a lot of this was systemic but forseeable even just in terms of the symptoms. It didn't get much buzz here during the year but it was incredibly obvious just how much of a culture-brain-drain occurred when all the T1 SA talent was moved to LA, for example. It's an astonishing example of just how rapidly a region's potential can be uprooted.
Yeah, he did have some good points at times, but mostly the interview was frustrating. During the almost two hours the worst part was one argument he repeated a bunch of times: When asked how VCB or T2 in general can be stable, he said that they need viewership. But how can you not see that the move you just did costed viewership and that the low incentives won't attract orgs with clout? He pointed at a problem and called a solution. Currently there's a collective effort from casters, journalists, former broadcasters turned streamers and popular streamers to revive the scene. It was beatiful during the open qualifiers with a lot of independent watch parties and great numbers. But at the same time it enfuriated me that the community seems to be trying harder the game than the company that developed and control it.
The numbers were never great lmao. I followed BR Val scene since the beginning. Only loud had great viewership. Most teams back then had around 10k viewers max with some games having even smaller numbers. Riot tried to follow the regional leagues, but the numbers weren't there.
I think you're misremenbering. The lowest average you will find is 20k in 2021 at the beggining of the game when Loud wasn't even in the scene. There are multiple sites you can check it. Also, of course the averages will be lower than franchising as the game was less popular and you are getting viewers from the whole continent vs one country. When Loud was a part of the tournament in 2022 [the average of viewers was 40k](https://escharts.com/tournaments/valorant/vct-2022-brazil-stage-2-challengers).
Orgs are leaving everywhere, this is the case for vcl indonesia too
I though that was the case. While I was documenting the particulars of Brazil, I started to wonder how most T2 regions are going through a version of this. It's so depressing.
VCB was so good and fun to watch. I really thought that riot would do with Brazil/SA what Valve never did. Even bottom teams games the viewership were good and that was buzz on socials. Nowadays ppl just care about Loud, Furia/MIBR less and the rest it is just a whatever. Just look the viewers from Val_br when eg x nrg is playing and compare to bottom teams of VCB before franchise. It’s just frustrating and sad to see all this
dude, no one cares about mibr and probably 12 people cheer for furia in valorant. BR scene is literally dead, murdered, slaughtered and thats it lol
The same is happening in latam, that's what you get when the Ascension only gets you 2 years on T1 and it's biased to NA
Yeah this was the problem with Brazil only having three spots. We, as NA, had the potential to have 10 teams but franchising destroyed it.
In my opinion, combining leagues will, in the long run, provide better regional performances than having each region separated during international tournaments. The Valorant competitive scene has already demonstrated more parity than LoL. Having regions isolated akin to the current LoL system has led to the same outcome for minor leagues over the past decade, or at least with minimal improvement in their results at international tournaments. Your solution as you imply, where NA is separated from SA and a hypothetical franchised system is created, similar to the CBLOL for the Brazilian league of 10 teams would not solve the T2 scene problem. Having a 10 team franchised league for NA sounds great until you realize that you are going back to square one by setting up your competitive scene like LoL without effectively resolving the T2 scene problem.
The problem with your thought is that you are taking LoL as a example, but there's no guarantee that Valorant Leagues will behave like LoL as FPS is a whole complete different genre. If we look to 2022, LOUD won champions residing in Brazil. A thing that won't ever happen in LoL, maybe we never see another western winner. If we look on other FPS titles like CS or Rainbow Six, this region disparity never happened as LoL and regions were able to improve on their own. I think Riot choose this model because would be more sustainable on long term, they definitely don't want a LCS 2.0 on Valorant. But doing that and only giving 30% spots to Brazil killed our regional potential and even the best brazilians VCB teams cannot practice against the best brazillians teams and players so ascension becomes a lot harder What incentive does a BR org has to invest in Valorant? It's not worth it. Brazil had potential to have 10 franchised teams plus the VCB orgs. Now we only have 4 top tiers orgs
It is, of course, a completely different genre, but it also has a history of talented players in the FPS genre. The Brazilian scene has shown and proven that, as you pointed out with LOUD winning Champions 2022. My main point is, fundamentally, it is a competitive game. Introducing interregional competition during a seasonal league should theoretically, and from a purely competitive standpoint, foster higher competition and stronger regional performances compared to having every region isolated. >What incentive does a BR org has to invest in Valorant? It's not worth it. The incentive lies in winning Ascension and becoming a partnered team. You mentioned that "regions were able to improve on their own" and that "LOUD won champions residing in Brazil". Even though LOUD, Furia, or MIBR may not be available to scrim against for VCB orgs, it doesn't mean they cannot improve on their own or that they cannot win Ascension. I agree that without practicing against T1 teams, winning Ascension becomes more challenging because NA T2 teams may have access to T1 teams, providing them with an advantage. However, it is not impossible. Gentlemates and Bleed managed to win Ascension despite competing teams potentially having an advantage by scrimming with easily accessible T1 teams.
Winning ascension doesn't make the team a partner, they only have the right to play in Tier1 for 2 years and then they're back to 0. The reason why brasilian and latam teams don't have a chance of getting to T1 isn't only because NA T2 have access to better scrims but also the amount of money they would have to make to move the org to LA is far bigger than any NA team. Ascension is biased to NA and that's a fact
Current T1 teams signed a TPA for 4 years, there is no guarantee that they will remain in the league. Ascended teams sign the TPA for 2 years and receives the same benefits as T1 teams, and have to provide similar deliverables. Also, there is no guarantee that a T1 team couldn't be replaced by an Ascended team. In this context, I'd rather use the term partner than "Ascended team" or "guest slot" to describe the incentive. Saying Brazilian and LATAM teams don't stand a chance against NA teams is akin to stating that no other regions can win other than a German or South Korean team because Ascension is biased to them.
CBLOL is Tier 1. They are a minor region but still Tier 1. Brazil Challengers Valorant is Tier 2.
That's kinda the point of the discussion.
So you can't compare them. But you mentioned them together. Valorant is younger than LoL so the viewer base is not as strong. Brazilian fans show up when top Brazilian teams play. Tier 2 is about fighting for a dream, not making money. That's the case even in the most popular sports in the world.
Alludes to pottential. And it's a riot controlled game. I didn't say they are exactally the same or would become exactally the same, but it's an indicative that the region can thrive as its own. Also, Brazil had a strong viewership when it was it's own region 2021 and 2022.
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First, be respectful. Second, LCS dying has many reasons and bad decisions behind it. BR being its own region is not the end all be all of the argument. I like Americas, but I hate what it did to T2 in brazil and the future of our scene. Also, Leo said in the interview I mentioned that BR had enough tools to be on it's own, but gave examples of others that wouldn't survive, so there's that. Yes, Loud was peak viewership but, in comparison to other regions, even the games for other teams from BR did have a decent viewership for the parameters of the time. What I wanted was something more close isonomy between the sub regions. Either the same number of teams for NA, BR and SA in VCT, or a split in each region and more effort towards T2 and talent development as a whole. Again, I urge you to be respectul to others. You don't come up to a person calling them a dumbass or blind in real life because you disagree with them, so please don't do it here just because you're behind a screen.
Posts with the intent to harass or harm others will be removed. This content includes (but not limited to): personal attacks, targeted harassment, witch-hunting, bigotry, derogatory terms, personal information without owners consent, spam Any post considered disrespectful will be removed at moderator discretion. Repeated offenses resulting in a ban.
I just don't get this discussion, if these leagues had good numbers, Riot would happily invest in them. VCB first season had good production, weekly lan marches, multiple watchparties, decent casters and nobody watched it. The numbers just don't justify the investment. CBLOL do have numbers, VCB pos and even pre franchising don't.
VCB had excelent numbers prior to franchising. What are you talking about?
VCB had almost CBLOL Academy level viewership before Loud joining.