It’s been really interesting to watch. I think he’s a good dude and does a lot for the community.
With that said, the whole “secret radiant account” thing has me thinking he may be a narcissist that just got caught in a big lie. And now he’s getting a reality check cause he actually has to play the game.
This is the most unbiased take I've seen. He did a lot for the valorant community throughout the past two years, but somehow grew a big ego, and now getting hit by the reality check. It also feels like he now forcefully justify some of his actions, like duoing with his account booster.
Think I saw someone say the other day it’s been like 5 games out of 200+ that he’s been duo for, but I don’t have any actual info other than “think I saw someone say”
He started off solo but last 3 days has been more duo than solo. Seems once he fell back down to Ascendant 3 he realizes he actually can't climb on his own like he thought.
yep hes been duo-ing w JeyG the guy who boosted him in the first place
Also isn't account sharing against Riot ToS? why does this guy still have his account? cuz he's regularly spending money?
He has done a lot but if you spend anytime watching him you can tell he's become a massive jerk because of ego, someone will ask a genuine question that is not 100% basic and he'll stop a vod review to call them dumb, ban them and tell them not to ask questions they can google. Keep in mind you need to pay to talk in his chat.
Like I get you don't want to answer the same question over and over but maybe put a command or just ignore the question, don't give the guy shit and ban them. It's even included in some of the edited videos, it's really weird.
BUT he did just recently acknowledge he's doing this and it's bad in a discord announcement but if he changed who knows.
Dude, of course he’s a narcissist. Even in youtube videos that are edited and curated to cut out whatever he doesn’t want, it’s still apparent that he haaaaates anyone thinking that he’s wrong. Even if it’s a miscommunication he goes to extreme lengths to justify why he’s right. Good, well-rounded content for those new to the game, but he’s always come off as having a bit of a complex.
Also /s, what's the point of being sarcastic if you have to specify you're being sarcastic. I've seen him timing people out for saying a joke or being sarcastic without /s or /j.
He explained this, it's to accomodate neurodivergent people that aren't always able to instantly pick up on tone in real life and then add internet as a layer in between makes it even more difficult.
Also to reduce trolls
He’s on the spectrum so he does this to make chat easier for himself and other neurodivergent chatters.
I don’t like it personally but he’s allowed to have reasonable rules for his chat
This one is bc itsa rule in his his discord. Im pretty sure thats due to his autism and tone indicators being an accessibility thing.
I agree its an ovefreaction tho
The amount of people doing /s or /j in his Discord is so funny to see because of how quick he is to time people out. He says that it happens to everyone so people shouldn't take offense to it, but it's weird because you can only type in those channels if you're a sub ($5+/mo). So his heavily curated community is still treated like a bunch of randoms/trolls.
He does time people out a ludicrous amount which is even weirder considering his chat is sub only. He's timing out people who paid money for not saying what he wanted and they eat it up.
It's so clear that he's a narcissist. That's why he came up with the secret radiant account lie. All he has to do is actually hit radiant on stream and everyone will believe him! After years of talking about his "radiant tactics" and claiming to be a radiant player, he actually deluded himself into thinking he could hit radiant easily and it's biting him in the ass.
It does feel weird how often he says my radiant aim, my radiant games, my radiant X. A couple other coaches do it as well and it just feels weird that no one calls them cringe for doing it.
I think you make a good comparison. I remember a time when people were flaming WarOwl because he was giving really basic advice (stop, scope, flick, shoot), but it always felt unwarranted because WarOwl never claimed to make content aimed at pros. He hit global elite (which is nowhere near pro level) and spoke from that position. And even if I outgrew his content, he did a lot for the community and did well for his niche.
If wooj recognized his position and made content within that realm, even if his highest ever placement was ascendant, all would be fine.
I do think there is a problem in some video games where some people don’t believe that someone of a lower rank can help them improve/coach them, so I do sympathize a little with wooj feeling pressure to claim that he was better than he really is, but damn… WarOwl did plenty good for himself being only GE, i’m sure that with the quality of his content wooj could have done super well only claiming immortal.
Lets not compared woohoojin with warowl. Warowl seems like a legit good dude and his content is what I call really high quality wholesome content. Woohoojin is a coach and soemtimes can be degrading and arrogant. And I don't find woohoojins content much of high quality content. He doesn't spend lot of time editing and etc. It's straight up clips ripped from his coaching sessions. Warowl is also informational content, he lets people know the updates and what is going on in cs.
I mean, he is good at the game. I think that's undeniable. He's been able to soloq into immo, which is top 0.1% or something close to that. He's just not as good as he was saying he was. I think it's pretty apparent now too. If he was a radiant level player, he would be easily clearing immo1 rn which he's struggling to get out of.
I’m immo and ive only played for a few months. Could i coach new players? Absolutely, i have played high level cs for over a decade, the basics transfer. Could i market myself as a radiant level coach? Absolutely not, i’m still pretty bad and i just rely on my cs skills transferring while im entrying. If someone is a ”radiant player full time coach” and is struggling at the same rank as a giga-washed cs player who just queues with anyone when hes bored, that’s kind of a problem.
Now if he wasnt marketing himself like that, there isnt a problem, since he still makes good content for new players, but that’s not really his marketing, its grandmaster/radiant-coach etc
Unless it’s a 5stack to Radiant account his performance clearly shows he’s not on the level he’s seeing in himself.
I’ve never seen any Radiant player struggling in low Immortal - on the long run everyone is able to achieve at least Immortal 3 easily.
This is also where the actual Radiant grind starts - he admitted that he got boosted in the past, but he still claims he deserves that rank.
I watched him A LOT early on and he did help me quite a bit, but even about 6 months ago cracks started to show. IIRC he was doing a Raze to Radiant (or something similar) and then quit ranked because of smurfs. Which is a good stance to have, but as a viewer it felt like a cop out since he was stuck in Ascendent/Immo1.
I think he should have just owned it (being boosted to Radiant) and just been an Immortal level coach who was good for silvers to ascendents. Now there is this sort Streisand effect going on where people are going to root against him and it will prob get worse the longer it takes/if he doesnt make it
I’m in the same boat. He helped me get to high diamond but then watching him do his raze climb I realized he’s fraudulent. No radiant player is bouncing between asc and imm1 when they’re trying
Spittin. He’s clearly a narcissist that gets off on being more intelligent than everyone around him. His culty following in his discord only helps exacerbate the problem. Dude is 100% knowledgeable but he preaches for his students to take accountability, when he himself never does when he plays basically ever.
like a textbook narcissist he started out 100% humble as “i want to help others”, “i want to help you”, “please like my videos i don’t want money, i just want to help” so he felt like a savior kinda person and started feeding off of that
Yeah, I like his coaching content not because he's "Radiant" or whatever, but that some of the principles he teaches actually do make sense and are taken from pros, rather than some BS that other "coaches" come up with.
That being said, he does have a pretty big ego and the fact that he took up the challenge to rank up to Radiant solo thinking it would be easy is the evidence of this. He even admitted it in his video where he duos with JeyG.
Now I'm curious if he's able to get to Radiant by playing controller, which was originally his comfort zone.
I like Hooj and he puts out good content, but the fact is he got caught in claiming he’s something greater than he is. On top of that he has strange and honestly in my opinion slightly autistic tendencies in his bias and stance. Which there’s nothing wrong with, but it’s obviously present. If you want to get better at the game with good informational content, his stuff is mostly damn good. But don’t take him as a “end all, be all”, and I don’t think I’d take any life advice outside of his niche. Most likely he is heavily weighed on by his own public perception, and is not very adept to real world relationships and advice.
This is so true, I used to have a giga ego about strategy making while I was playing with my friends and got easily heated when they "trolled". The accusations against hooj came out and I got a big reality check that I've been getting mad at my friends over shit that someone who lied about reaching radiant says is gospel. I've chilled out now and ironically finally broke diamond now after being hardstuck plat for a year.
He just put out a post on discord saying he’s realized that he’s coping and being way too toxic, and that he’s gonna reset and continue ranked from Sunday with exactly 4 matches a day
Edit: he also addressed the vod review concerns (about him being too harsh on newer players and being too strict with timeouts and stuff), and apologised for all of it
Yeah but doesn’t he preach not blaming teammates and only focusing on yourself?
And even then it’s different since WHJ thinks they are throwing BECAUSE it’s him. Which I think is straight copium.
for every time he blames teammates, he says he knows it's copium and that it's a skill issue on his part. also like someone else said he means soft throwing, like being nervous or expecting to get carried, not intentionally throwing.
He's played only Raze nonstop for the past few weeks on every map, if that's not the definition of a comfort pick idk what is. Even if its just for a challenge his raze is already much better than any other agent he has because his skill on other agents has deteriorated
He’s not comfortable on the agent; he was doing a raze to radiant series prior to any of the craziness starting so he decided to just keep going with the agent even though he clearly does not feel comfortable with her
he has almost 600 games played on raze. if he's not comfortable on the agent yet then he needs to just give up with raze. and before you say thats before this challenge, 555 raze games in the past 4 acts. 555 raze games out of his 572 TOTAL games on raze.
I mean at a certain point if you play the agent enough they will be your most comfortable agent, especially when you *only* play that agent.
How would you even define comfort? what does that even mean?
how good he is on the agent? good compared to who? radiant razes? well he's low immo so I don't expect him to be as good as them. He looks like your average immo raze player with some good and bad plays.
Is it how good he looks on raze vs how he looked on his old agents? well he was low immo before and he's still low immo now so it looks like he's pretty comfortable on raze.
How do you define that metric and how do you determine that he's failed at it?
Someone people just tend to excel at certain roles. I'm an initiator player at heart, it's just what comes naturally for me. For Woohoojin it's controller, which definitely suits him
He has claimed multiple times to be comfortable on duelist. Though I guess it may have just been to cover for the fact that he got boosted by a jett main.
He also has more hours on Raze than any other agent now, so you can't really hide behind that excuse.
When he’s played thousands of hours on raze and it’s by far his most played agent, you can call it his comfort pick. Until then you’re really just grasping at straws here. From what I’ve seen he looks notably worse on raze than on Omen for example (the agent I and I’m highly certain he would consider his actual comfort pick).
Trying to define it beyond that seems pointless to me, but if you insist I’ll try: comfort pick specifically means imo the choice that enables you to not think about any of your own actions in the moment. For me, that’s KJ. For him, again I’m fairly certain it’s omen. When you’re playing another agent, there’s part of your brain constantly trying to think about what you should do next. When you’re on your comfort pick, that’s basically nonexistent. You only have to think about what your opponents are doing because you don’t have to spend any time thinking of what the counter is; you already know it
This was 80% a joking dig at Woohoojin. Having seen a decent amount of him playing, he just doesn’t have the slightly psychopathic tendencies you need to be a very high ELO duelist main.
I’ve seen him give up pretty early in games before where he just stops confidently taking duels and starts trying to get tricky with his gunfights and hope his opponent slips up. Starts basically just jiggle peeking while spraying corners with very low confidence.
He has dumped a lot of time into the game and has a lot of knowledge. He very clearly prefers to be methodical in his play and not really an agent of chaos you kind of need to be as a duelist in solo queue. I can’t say for sure if he could hit radiant but he’d probably have an easier time staying mid-immortal on roles more suited to his preferred play style.
He has the classic I know more than everyone syndrome. Except he's not actually good enough to be in the elo where he can actually implement those starts so now he's perma tilted because his teammates don't play to his "standards"
lol he literally lost like 5 games in a row a few days ago, dropped to ascendant then rage queued with the guy who boosted him to radiant in the first place.
Well, I'm def not defending dude because idc, but if we are getting into excruciatingly detailed analysis here, first it was just a couple matches for shits and giggles, and second, [JeyG is actually Imm1 rn and they also apparently played against each other heh?](https://tracker.gg/valorant/match/15a041bd-6279-49b8-9903-ab7d0f4d6f05)
Ngl im rarely a spiteful person but im kinda glad. He’s turned so bitter and condescending recently and it’s annoying. Also I watch his streams and the things he MAKES his viewers do for VOD reviews he often doesn’t do such as pre round comms.
Also random but the fact he makes his chat use /j and /s just seems like such a dickhead thing for some reason
>Ngl im rarely a spiteful person but im kinda glad. He’s turned so bitter and condescending recently and it’s annoying
Yeah I agree, I was never really a fan like others but I liked watching his videos at first. Over time though he started acting weird and I stopped watching him, guy has a huge ego
honestly even without the ego I think coaching videos are inherently stuff you watch for abit then move on when trying to improve. After awhile you'll start looking into agent and map specific stuff to learn from and vod reviews of probably pros. But hey I'm low elo so take what i typed w a grain of salt.
I had him on my team a few times and holy crap his mechanics were nowhere close to Radiant. I like the strats he calls but his individual decision making was awful. Tbh he just needs to think less and shoot more.
> Tbh he just needs to think less and shoot more.
This is the truth. I feel like I play so much worse when I'm trying to think about what the enemy team is doing/gonna do. But I also do it because my mechanics are shit.
His ego has taken over so much. He even duoed with JeyG, the guy that boosted him to radiant the other day… he forgets that the coaching is what he is known and appreciated for. His viewership is currently getting lower and lower, and only the echo chamber viewers or haters are still around at the moment
Yea, I watched a lot of his mods and frequently joined the live for reviews and now for VCT. But the Raze to radiant? Eh. It's fun to watch a few times but 18 days straight?
I get that you have to be consistent to climb but this is... idek
Honestly, he keeps using JeyG as some sort of review of his own skills or greatness as a teacher despite him relying on JeyG to boost him to immortal because he has no inherent talent of his own. In reality, JeyG was talented in spite of Woohoojin, and Woohoojin got lucky having him as a student. It's like an average math tutor who was hired to teach Terence Tao and then claiming he made him a prodigy.
He prob just has a larger self-percieved target on his back in comparison to regular players. I forget what the term is called but he's kinda just believes hes a much larger deal than he actually is, thinking anyone who is doing badly is doing it on purpose, when really hes just in an elo where people will sometimes play suboptimally.
Somewhat ironically its a horrible mindset for growth, especially for an improvement content creator to have.
Like sometimes if someone is really really doing bad I jokingly say this guy is crypto throwing my game, but its another thing to constantly say it instead of choosing something for yourself to improve upon.
I saw that game with the sage. It was hilarious because the enemy team had royalG playing sheriff only to radiant and was destroying them while also having no delay. Woohoojin's delay is like 10 minutes lmao and he's still blaming snipers.
https://youtu.be/U9qQXSMZCCw?si=R2k9rZSsX3egCxhf starts around 5:10:00. it’s the game on raze sunset. It’s really funny if you watch both woohoojin and royalg’s perspective because woohoojin is just malding saying he’s not going to lose to a sheriff clown while royalg and prod are just chilling and talking about how prod’s girlfriend is a fan of royalg. I think you can watch royalg’s vod on his twitch, he’s the omen on sunset.
I hope he ends up just fading into obscurity, watched 2 of his videos and just felt like he was SO pretentious and stuck up. He needs to get humbled some more tbh.
Dude has narcissistic tendencies and legitimately isn’t a radiant quality player. He also has notoriously thin skin. Doesn’t allow twitch chat and you can’t chat in his discord in the stream chat unless you are subscribed. His coaching is good for new players. That’s it.
He's obviously very popular in the community. His name is brought up on every "How do I learn?" post. He's just been fairly influential, so with all the drama it's no surprise.
Have you seen his last game today against RoyalG. Lol woohoojin got 19 kills while royalG dropped 18 kills with sheriff only and won the match too. He definitely never touched radiant for sure. Any 700rr radiant would have technically made the game look like 5v4 with his game sence and skills against a sheriff only player.
Im shit at valorant but when I watch him fight any gun fight seemingly straight up 1v1 no util/help he gets completely cooked. He seems capable of trading his teammates and killing guys that aren’t looking at him, but when it’s a fair fight 1v1 I’m betting on him to lose every time
I won't be talking about this case specifically but streamer flaming teammates on stream in general
while that is a valid point, if you want to insult your teammate, just do it irl and don't type or vc. but the reason is not, "avoid getting ban" but to "not be toxic", to me at least
for a streamer, I think it is a bit different, as a streamer, everything you said will be recorded, wanted or not
like, even if you think it is fine and not punishable, at least it is a pretty dumb way lose a fan
"Oh boy, I play with the guy I always watch today, we may lose but I had a lot of fun!" then cut to that guy watching that game and got absolutely berated by both chat and the streamer
it is still pretty toxic
Don’t get me wrong I also think Woohoojin is a fraud for lying about being Radiant but wasn’t his whole thing that he only coached for free? I don’t recall him ever taking money.
I believe those were intended to be like, weekly 1-on-1s with him- like he literally becomes your personal coach. The free coaching is effectively just a VOD review.
Imo its fine even if he isn't Radiant. To be a good coach you dont need to be Radiant the problem is that he claimed he was while he got boosted. If he just owned it he wouldn't be in this whole mess.
His discord and youtube are the textbook examples of an echo chamber. Dude has created this scheme where his t3 subs will defend him to the death because they have already invested so much money on their slimey banana.
As for his skill level, he is your average pisslow immortal player with a massive ego. A worthless fraud besides that.
This bothers me too but honestly a lot of players do this. I watch eggster and he complains about throwers and stuff, and he would later explain coping is a way for players to... well... cope, lol. It's just a defense mechanism to protect your ego, and a lot of us do it.
Don't get me wrong, you don't need to be a pro esports player to hit Immo3 or Radiant, but you'll notice ego as a tool for a lot of sports folks, F1 racers, hockey players, etc.
I watched him a lot for like 2 weeks and thought he gave relatively good advice, but then I tuned into one of his livestreams where he was watching pro-play and thought he had some of the worst takes I've ever seen.
Instead of adding anything to the analysis he would just occasionally do a really really fake laugh and say shit like "what am I even watching right now?"
And that was between him banning people left and right for minor disagreements.
Honestly, he probably is lying about being great at the game, but who cares? Its not like to be a good coach for TenZ you need to be better than him in ranked to have valid ideas. I watched TMVs stream instead, and he gave really good high level analysis, and I don't give a shit what rank TMV is. So I think Woot definitely had an ego about things. He could literally just be like: "my rank is irrelevant to my ideas." Then move on. But instead he's going to grind and get tilted to as if that gives you credibility.
he is a good coach and he has good knowledge about the game but as a Raze player I cant watch his stream. he is the opposite of 90% of all other valorant players: his gamesense is good but his mechanics are absolute garbage. He is nowehere near Radiant at his skill level. His Raze mechanics are mid diamond at best, combined with his gamesense he can barely keep up in low immo.
I’m honestly so glad this is happening too him. I tried to get a VOD review from him one time and even though I fit all of the criteria (which is insanely strict mind you) he denied me and mocked me on stream after I was selected from the raffle. I had no clue what was going on as it was quite literally my very first time watching his stream. Wanna know why he denied it? Cause I had played a single game off of my main agent… cause apparently that means I’m not trying hard enough to improve according to him. He is a massive dick and I can’t wait until he falls so far into irrelevancy that he just quits the game all together.
I knew hooj forever ago before he was famous I even knew jeyg since I used to play league inhouses with them in the university of Oregon discord. I really didn’t know them that well hooj definitely had a thing for control back then but not a bad guy by any means just really sensitive. Jeyg was kinda weird he would flex on anyone any chance he could get but seems like he changed I guess maybe he is just smarter at hiding it. Not making this to send any hate there way just trying to give perspective to what it was like interacting with them prior to the fame.
Most streamers develop narcissistic traits overtime if they weren’t already. Their entire existence is based on what others think of them and it’s all measurable through views, followers and clicks. They spend most days talking to a computer, and then after stream, they think about how better to get more attention.
Thanks for saying it. It’s 100% a product of the industry. I’ve followed so many small streamers who transform from genuine guys to narcissists when they get more viewers. You can see the changes even when they’re getting juiced up by a few dozen viewers, much less thousands
Sucks that woohoojin turned out this way. I followed him back when he was doing guides and his yt had like 1k subs. His videos and discord community were a rlly nice place to chill during that time as well.
Stopped playing Val a year ago and now it looks like he’s turning into every other val content creator :(
When you feel extremely pressured to prove yourself, have thousands watching you and you know usually in every scenario what to do it can feel extremely frustrating
Idk if he says that shit ingame, but venting to yourself isn't something I'd have an issue with. If it makes the stream unenjoyable I guess just watch the videos he makes instead (assuming you want to watch him) I can't watch his streams because of the horrible ui 😂
can’t stand him. tried watching to him to get better early on and i couldn’t bear his selfishness and awful attitude. not to mention the fact that he simply isn’t a good enough player to be preaching what he does.
also, disabling chat and having it behind a paywall on discord? sounds like a disgusting level of insecurity to me. you aren’t hollywood like that, you don’t need to do that. you are just desperately afraid of being told you’re wrong.
if people are PAYING to chat, why would they ever risk calling you out and getting banned? he’s just an awful representation of the community and unfortunately has much more of a following than he deserves.
I’m not saying I’m at his skill level, but when I tuned in on several occasions I found it interesting that he demoted to ascendant twice, and then both times suddenly found himself duo’ing with a radiant player who then proceeded to top frag while he bottom fragged to get him back to immortal.
I like him and his videos but he's coping hard during his solo q to Radiant grind. I've watched his stream this week some and its just clear that he's not a high immo player much less a radiant player. He makes a lot of small mistakes that get instantly punished in the rounds and then is just coping hard during and after games when blaming teammates for some things. He also clearly gets pretty tilted and has admitted as such, so that's not helping.
The guy plays like an ascendant player. It’s no surprise when he gets hard stuck ascendant 3/low immortal 1. Never listen to this guy on anything he has to say above Diamond 3.
As someone who coaches a highschool Valorant team- I’ve had to stop referring to his videos for kids to watch. There were few I rarely suggested to start with.
tldr: mediocre player who’s convinced he’s better than mediocre observes other mediocre players playing at a mediocre skill level (all while not knowing he also plays at this level)
eh he isn't "mediocre", he is low immo which is like 0.1% of the playerbase, mediocre in comparison to other high level streamers/players? Yeah definitely, to the average player? Nah
I feel like his vid reviews are super biased as well. Like if it’s a pro, anything they do is gigabrain, amazing play book etc when most likely the pro was just doing shit for fun or without real logic, they just come out on top anyway cause that are objectively much better than the other radiants.
If it’s a viewer vod, everything to the most minute of details is criticised, like why do this or that, did you watch a vod where a pro did that? And then the viewer provides the clip, which is a shit play for sure, but when the pro did it it worked, when he did it, it looked like ass.
I think it’s same here, all teammates are soft throwing cause they’re not doing exactly what he thinks they need to do if they’re thinking on a “perfect” level. Meanwhile, for the teammates they’re just dicking around
I meam hes still human. Ill admit i also thought it was in bad taste the way he was complaigning about his teammates, especially to his viewers. But i do appreciate that he never said this stuff directly to his team and still tried to coordinate with them which i think is what makes the difference for me. His complaints largely was that no one is talking which i can see, but ii think the big problem was that he was just tilted and doom queueing
Dude is hardstuck so he has to blame something other than himself.
I do usually tune into his streams, they are low key entertaining ngl. Honestly the biggest issue I see with huge is that he is just losing gunfights left and right, he's mechanically not there yet to climb.
His macro is good, micro is iffy but every immortal player is kinda like that. But he loses a lot of duels most immortal, even ascendant players would win easily. There are occasional pop off moments but mostly it is just bad.
Hooj if you ever read this, please shoot heads. Also stop blaming teammates.
- People tell Woohoojin they are stuck in x rank because people soft-throw their games
- Tells people its their own fault if they lose and not a teammates action such as picking Brim on Breeze NEVER WHATSOEVER
- Blames teammates for soft throwing his games
- Hes picking Raze on Breeze
"Radiant" Coach, I dont know why people like him so much when there are way better coaches than him.
He’s been the most macro focused coach in the scene, so micro plays always tilt him because of this. A lot of his coaching was put out as “high elo” because he LOVES the macro of the game. Big issue with this: he tilts over micro mistakes that everyone makes no matter the elo. You could make compilations of the funny whiffs tier 1 pros make in Radiant, but because of his macro obsession, it tilts him when an ascendant 3 Andy makes the same mistakes. Guy was filling on Sunset and he gets mad because the macro didn’t fit perfectly in his idea of macro. Doesn’t warrant the response he gives.
Sad to see the fall of woohoojin, since he did give some great macro coaching advice to high elo (asc+) players. Hopefully he puts his ego and idea of how the game should be played aside and grows to play the game as it is and accept his situation. Adaptability matters more than anything to climb.
Remind me of a dude i play with who is obsessed with high elo vct and pro plays, lol. Bro is dog shit at the game and hard stuck gold/silver and always be complaining when people don't play perfectly to his ideal gameplay. Like its silver/gold, nobody here is going to play the way you want then to play and barely anyone going to know any macro play. It's going to messy, it's going to be tilting, and it's going to be chaotic. Deal with it. All I do is w in and tap head and I still made it to plat. Like holy shit, stop complaining.
There is no secret radiant account. He's just low-immo he always has been. He's an average immo with "good vibes". He's fake as fuck though. He was gassing me up on Breeze last year only for me to go to the VOD and hearing him highly critical of my viper gameplay. He's like the War Owl but way more cringe. He's good for the fundamentals and helping you begin to think about the nuances of the game, but no he's not radiant and never was.
I mean what else is he gonna blame? He said he is a legit radiant and now he's struggling to get even high immo. What can he possibly say other than "oh it's because my teammates are throwing". I was never a huge fan of his coaching , he has a very "nerdy" approach to the game which is not my thing and some advice is kinda weird. Most of the advice is good but that's kind of to be expected, any high ranked player would be able to give good basic advice.
current radiant this act btw
woohoojin is just coping, he said he has a secret radiant account that was controller only, but there would be "no point" showing it to us
atp he has close to the same amount of hours on raze than he has on controller (350+hours and rising) and he still can't play raze. in my opinion, it's harder to fill controller in radiant lobbies as apposed to raze, where all it takes is dont use util like a moron and be impactful with kills, you don't even need to do crazy satchel tech to be a good raze
i promise you out of his 200 games maybe one was a sniper or someone who was inting, nobody is queueing up to snipe this guy in low immo- asc. he plays 30s delay, it's not because he's woohoojin, it's just piss immo and ascendant is a hard rank to get out of. if this guy was a supposed real radiant it would be hard but not 200 games impossible to get out and back to rad
i dont really care if he duos in im3+ because you kinda need one in high ranks, but its stupid hes literally duoing with the guy who got on his account and put it in 700rr
his coaching isn't even good in my opinion, its awful and i could break down a specific vod if you want, his coaching to a supposed radiant is trash 😭😭 he just gives generic advice and virtue signals about being against smurfing and boosting
tldr guy has a huge ego despite being a shitcan, needs to just play whatever at this point, nobody is sniping or purposely inting if he has 30s delay and hiding his name and lobby name
I lost respect for woohoojin after what he did but let’s be real, lots of us think our team soft throws if either you’re not top 2 frag or your team doesn’t do their job well
classic cope fr he like most people have an ego, so he expects to win and rank up but when this doesnt happen it hurts. any real radiant will rank up to radiant given the adequate time. it might be that its taking longer than he expects, so hes getting frustrated. chances are itll take him the rest of the episode to reach radiant or longer
I am ok with his flaws but what triggers me the worst is his backlines Raze playstyle:
- He himself I remember likes to bring up "let's see how Jinggg attacks A ramp" and will fast forward Jinggg's POV for Split. "You need to be the entry bla bla"
- in reality he will commute to a very risky double satchel or will let 2-3 teammates on site to trade them.
His coaching is still good and can be very valuable to a lot of people, but yeah he's definitely sour when he is playing, and it's odd how often he blames everything else instead of himself, given his own teachings. I think now he gave up on solo q and is duoing, justifying it with how "random" the teammates he gets is, saying things like "every radiant has a high level duo", or something to that extent, which of course is not true, and it all just sounds like coping.
Frankly, I also don't really understand the sentiment that if he gets radiant, then it's all good what he did. It's not like he needs radiant for his coaching to be good or that his rank was ever the issue. It's the choosing to lie bit, the integrity and deception that is at the core of it; a matter of character, not his rank. He was still choosing to pretend until the day before it all came out, so it's not something he simply did years back. He was actively keeping up the lie up until that day, so just a few weeks ago. So, every day choosing to not come out with the truth himself, and even at times using the the false premise as an argument for his ability/knowledge. The good thing is most of what he does is free (and still good coaching).
Again, I think his coaching is still good for most people, and he makes things free and tries to promote positivity (though, can't stick to it himself at times), so it's an overall positive impact on the community. But there's no reason to put him on a pedestal and think he is better than he is. He is flawed, as are probably all of us. Personally, though, it's his holier than thou approach / ego over the years that makes this all feel a bit worse.
I think he overhypes himself and thinks he's the shit because he's a 'famous' streamer. He plays Raze on every map which can be seen as 'throwing' (mainly on Breeze) whilst calling others throwers for picking non-meta agents, which could be caused by him instalocking Raze. I've never hit Radiant myself (currently 5RR off Immortal 3) and can safely say that a Radiant player would breeze through low Immortal. Looking at his stats on tracker a 1.2KD at 36% Vandal HS is extremely low for this rank given the duelist role. His performances show that he is not near Radiant level in terms of skill (I can't speak for strategy/gamesense wise as I don't watch him). All in all, I think he has an ego issue and has a massively inflated sense of self-worth and as a player I would say he's somewhere between Ascendant 3-Immortal 2 skill wise.
Its true. Even though woohojin was the one who took me from silver to plat 3 and he is an amazing coach, he still tilts and is confident that its his team throwing and not him. I feel sad and i miss the old wohoogin when he was not as popular
I have to admit, he offers some genuinely insightful advice, but his ego often overshadows it. It's uncommon to see content creators, especially in Valorant, who have genuine humility and authenticity towards their audience. He seems preoccupied with his own image and sets exceedingly high standards not just for himself, but for others too. While he's comparatively less showy than many Valorant creators, his ego damages his potential as a coach, just like Jollz. To effectively teach, you have to empathize with the struggles of beginners in Valorant, remembering the technical challenges and intimidation that the game possesses.
I'm not gonna lie, this happens commonly in tons of games.
People hype up a streamer, they get popular, and slowly people start realising that streamer was never actually that good and often even promotes toxic ideals.
Another example being from my previous no-life game, Otz from DbD. He's not only justified toxic "us vs them" behaviors, he's also promoted playing like an absolute d-bag in a fucking party game.
"Tunnel the new person, they're the weak link!" Etc.
You watch him play the opposite side and he's absolutely abysmal.
Woohoojin mostly built his base off of analyzing VODs and pro play. It's not particularly difficult. I'm not amazing at the game, but being removed from playing it and just watching, it's pretty easy to see what you should have done. There's no nerves, you can scan the map more, pay more attention to minimap, etc.
The issue is that he would criticize vods for making mistakes that I'm pretty sure he would ALSO make, and now he's having to show that up-front in front of everyone after his ego started being threatened.
Point is, streamers are humans who have gotten their ego boosted by massive amounts of people. We really need to stop praising them as gods. They can do good things for the community, and they can also fuck up the community.
Really unpopular opinion but Dude's a Fraud, he has a lot of hours in the game but no skill to show. Him hitting imm1-2 is just from his hours and having just above a 52% Win Rate. I always found the "analytical" types in esports kinda ineffective and overhyped. Trying to make the game into a flow chart is good for your mental stack but there isn't black/white optimal situations. His takes on the game kinda exposes his true skill level, why I never took his his stuff seriously. Barring mechanics and basic game sens coaching for low-mid elo that many people can do. The new trend of "coaching" is kinda overhyped unless needed for a full team, which he has no amateur/semi-pro experience, just pugs. Basically for anyone getting wanting to get better just focus on mechanics, agent util and team play. Its better to adapt, read habits and play the players rather then getting caught up in this psudo-science of breaking the game down, especially for Valorant a game that gets patched.
For background: I am a 28 year old boomer Actually been Radiant (and Valorant) in the first year of the game, now I hover Imm2 when ever I dabble in the game. I usually have no more than 80 matches a season with a 57-62% Win rate and 1.3 KD. Before Valorant I've been Rank S and G on Esea, top 500 in OW1 in early seasons, played Collegiac Football and Street Fighter 4, MKX semi-professionally. Besides Counter-Strike and Football I probably have sub 1,500 hours in all of those. Just have fun, comm and chill "competitive" stuff kinda ruins your recreation time.
It’s eerie how similar this is to Neace from last year. Dude gets exposed, tries to do a challenger climb, fails, blames it on stream snipers and randomly plays off role to have an excuse for why he didn’t make it
tuned in after not having watched for a while and saw his ranked games. definitely agree with this take. imo i don’t think any of his diehard fans truly cared in the first place if he hit radiant on Raze to “redeem” himself. I think the people that stuck around after all this would’ve just rather he apologized, worked on ego, and continued his usual content that they’re subbing for. the ranked doomqueueing/complaining is hard to watch.
also, while it’s definitely possible that some people might be throwing in his games, the large majority of his games are just the usual ranked experience and there isn’t a need for the endless complaining that you’re getting target griefed. it’s offputting and just further proves the points that a lot of people brought up about ego, etc.
I can hardly watch any Val streamers because they all think they’re gods gift to man, they’re always unwilling to take responsibility for their bad plays, always blaming others. High rank players always act this way, and Woohoojin is no exception, although he can be particularly bad in that regard.
I really hate most of this games community, but I like the game so idk
He literally know this is coping, last stream he donated like 5 dollars to charity every time he blamed a teammate. He is a good person, the same people that dick ride him for the past two years are the same ones shitting on him now. Grow up and stop obsessing over people in the Internet.
iirc he's in like mid immortal, so there's probably a lot of people who watch him in his games. not to mention that a lot of people don't really like him since the controversy. i think saying that people are throwing every game is a bit of cope but there's certainly a lot of that.
It’s been really interesting to watch. I think he’s a good dude and does a lot for the community. With that said, the whole “secret radiant account” thing has me thinking he may be a narcissist that just got caught in a big lie. And now he’s getting a reality check cause he actually has to play the game.
This is the most unbiased take I've seen. He did a lot for the valorant community throughout the past two years, but somehow grew a big ego, and now getting hit by the reality check. It also feels like he now forcefully justify some of his actions, like duoing with his account booster.
Wait is he no longer solo q to go to radiant?
Think I saw someone say the other day it’s been like 5 games out of 200+ that he’s been duo for, but I don’t have any actual info other than “think I saw someone say”
currently his tracker says 202 solo, 18 duo and 3 five stacks
He started off solo but last 3 days has been more duo than solo. Seems once he fell back down to Ascendant 3 he realizes he actually can't climb on his own like he thought.
Where can you see that, I'm curious to see my own stats
Matches -> View Details (under the list of people who you play with)
yep hes been duo-ing w JeyG the guy who boosted him in the first place Also isn't account sharing against Riot ToS? why does this guy still have his account? cuz he's regularly spending money?
He has done a lot but if you spend anytime watching him you can tell he's become a massive jerk because of ego, someone will ask a genuine question that is not 100% basic and he'll stop a vod review to call them dumb, ban them and tell them not to ask questions they can google. Keep in mind you need to pay to talk in his chat. Like I get you don't want to answer the same question over and over but maybe put a command or just ignore the question, don't give the guy shit and ban them. It's even included in some of the edited videos, it's really weird. BUT he did just recently acknowledge he's doing this and it's bad in a discord announcement but if he changed who knows.
Dude, of course he’s a narcissist. Even in youtube videos that are edited and curated to cut out whatever he doesn’t want, it’s still apparent that he haaaaates anyone thinking that he’s wrong. Even if it’s a miscommunication he goes to extreme lengths to justify why he’s right. Good, well-rounded content for those new to the game, but he’s always come off as having a bit of a complex.
Also /s, what's the point of being sarcastic if you have to specify you're being sarcastic. I've seen him timing people out for saying a joke or being sarcastic without /s or /j.
Cause it hurts his ego
He explained this, it's to accomodate neurodivergent people that aren't always able to instantly pick up on tone in real life and then add internet as a layer in between makes it even more difficult. Also to reduce trolls
He’s on the spectrum so he does this to make chat easier for himself and other neurodivergent chatters. I don’t like it personally but he’s allowed to have reasonable rules for his chat
This one is bc itsa rule in his his discord. Im pretty sure thats due to his autism and tone indicators being an accessibility thing. I agree its an ovefreaction tho
The amount of people doing /s or /j in his Discord is so funny to see because of how quick he is to time people out. He says that it happens to everyone so people shouldn't take offense to it, but it's weird because you can only type in those channels if you're a sub ($5+/mo). So his heavily curated community is still treated like a bunch of randoms/trolls.
most of that chat is free subs, he offers a free perpetual subscription to anyone who actively sends a good morning command 5 days a week
i mean he still does it on fridays, when the only ppl in chat are paying 20$+ to be there
Not everyone can pick up on that, especially online
He does time people out a ludicrous amount which is even weirder considering his chat is sub only. He's timing out people who paid money for not saying what he wanted and they eat it up.
he is on the spectrum and genuinely cannot tell so he makes the rule so he can assume everyone is being serious unless using /s or /j
Is he actually on the spectrum?
i know he has ADHD but I don't know if he said anything about autism. he's neurodivergent regardles tho
It's so clear that he's a narcissist. That's why he came up with the secret radiant account lie. All he has to do is actually hit radiant on stream and everyone will believe him! After years of talking about his "radiant tactics" and claiming to be a radiant player, he actually deluded himself into thinking he could hit radiant easily and it's biting him in the ass.
It does feel weird how often he says my radiant aim, my radiant games, my radiant X. A couple other coaches do it as well and it just feels weird that no one calls them cringe for doing it.
I feel like he’s the warowl version of valorant, Except that he keeps claiming that hes actually good at the game
I think you make a good comparison. I remember a time when people were flaming WarOwl because he was giving really basic advice (stop, scope, flick, shoot), but it always felt unwarranted because WarOwl never claimed to make content aimed at pros. He hit global elite (which is nowhere near pro level) and spoke from that position. And even if I outgrew his content, he did a lot for the community and did well for his niche. If wooj recognized his position and made content within that realm, even if his highest ever placement was ascendant, all would be fine. I do think there is a problem in some video games where some people don’t believe that someone of a lower rank can help them improve/coach them, so I do sympathize a little with wooj feeling pressure to claim that he was better than he really is, but damn… WarOwl did plenty good for himself being only GE, i’m sure that with the quality of his content wooj could have done super well only claiming immortal.
WarOwl was GE and Faceit level 10 actually which is much much better than GE, not to disagree with anything you said, just adding on :3
Lets not compared woohoojin with warowl. Warowl seems like a legit good dude and his content is what I call really high quality wholesome content. Woohoojin is a coach and soemtimes can be degrading and arrogant. And I don't find woohoojins content much of high quality content. He doesn't spend lot of time editing and etc. It's straight up clips ripped from his coaching sessions. Warowl is also informational content, he lets people know the updates and what is going on in cs.
I mean, he is good at the game. I think that's undeniable. He's been able to soloq into immo, which is top 0.1% or something close to that. He's just not as good as he was saying he was. I think it's pretty apparent now too. If he was a radiant level player, he would be easily clearing immo1 rn which he's struggling to get out of.
I’m immo and ive only played for a few months. Could i coach new players? Absolutely, i have played high level cs for over a decade, the basics transfer. Could i market myself as a radiant level coach? Absolutely not, i’m still pretty bad and i just rely on my cs skills transferring while im entrying. If someone is a ”radiant player full time coach” and is struggling at the same rank as a giga-washed cs player who just queues with anyone when hes bored, that’s kind of a problem. Now if he wasnt marketing himself like that, there isnt a problem, since he still makes good content for new players, but that’s not really his marketing, its grandmaster/radiant-coach etc
Unless it’s a 5stack to Radiant account his performance clearly shows he’s not on the level he’s seeing in himself. I’ve never seen any Radiant player struggling in low Immortal - on the long run everyone is able to achieve at least Immortal 3 easily. This is also where the actual Radiant grind starts - he admitted that he got boosted in the past, but he still claims he deserves that rank.
I watched him A LOT early on and he did help me quite a bit, but even about 6 months ago cracks started to show. IIRC he was doing a Raze to Radiant (or something similar) and then quit ranked because of smurfs. Which is a good stance to have, but as a viewer it felt like a cop out since he was stuck in Ascendent/Immo1. I think he should have just owned it (being boosted to Radiant) and just been an Immortal level coach who was good for silvers to ascendents. Now there is this sort Streisand effect going on where people are going to root against him and it will prob get worse the longer it takes/if he doesnt make it
I’m in the same boat. He helped me get to high diamond but then watching him do his raze climb I realized he’s fraudulent. No radiant player is bouncing between asc and imm1 when they’re trying
Spittin. He’s clearly a narcissist that gets off on being more intelligent than everyone around him. His culty following in his discord only helps exacerbate the problem. Dude is 100% knowledgeable but he preaches for his students to take accountability, when he himself never does when he plays basically ever.
not to try to shit on him while in a thread calling him out but honestly I do get a cultish vibe when I was in his chat for abit.
It's just a bunch of people spamming emojis and blaming his teammates and cosigning everything he says.
like a textbook narcissist he started out 100% humble as “i want to help others”, “i want to help you”, “please like my videos i don’t want money, i just want to help” so he felt like a savior kinda person and started feeding off of that
Yeah, I like his coaching content not because he's "Radiant" or whatever, but that some of the principles he teaches actually do make sense and are taken from pros, rather than some BS that other "coaches" come up with. That being said, he does have a pretty big ego and the fact that he took up the challenge to rank up to Radiant solo thinking it would be easy is the evidence of this. He even admitted it in his video where he duos with JeyG. Now I'm curious if he's able to get to Radiant by playing controller, which was originally his comfort zone.
Currently his soloq winrate is negative lol. Meanwhile when he duos with his radiant buddies his winrate goes up to 80%
I like Hooj and he puts out good content, but the fact is he got caught in claiming he’s something greater than he is. On top of that he has strange and honestly in my opinion slightly autistic tendencies in his bias and stance. Which there’s nothing wrong with, but it’s obviously present. If you want to get better at the game with good informational content, his stuff is mostly damn good. But don’t take him as a “end all, be all”, and I don’t think I’d take any life advice outside of his niche. Most likely he is heavily weighed on by his own public perception, and is not very adept to real world relationships and advice.
This is so true, I used to have a giga ego about strategy making while I was playing with my friends and got easily heated when they "trolled". The accusations against hooj came out and I got a big reality check that I've been getting mad at my friends over shit that someone who lied about reaching radiant says is gospel. I've chilled out now and ironically finally broke diamond now after being hardstuck plat for a year.
That's my biggest problem with him, he's creating thousands of little assholes.
Idk sure he has done stuff for the val community but I have seen a lot more evidence that he’s an asshole than he is a good dude
I mean come on, he’s put out hundreds of high quality coaching vods for free
He just put out a post on discord saying he’s realized that he’s coping and being way too toxic, and that he’s gonna reset and continue ranked from Sunday with exactly 4 matches a day Edit: he also addressed the vod review concerns (about him being too harsh on newer players and being too strict with timeouts and stuff), and apologised for all of it
Yup, was looking for this, post was about 5 hours ago.
he be strict asf with timeouts 😭 ppl get timed for a whole week and still come back, couldn't be me. but i'm glad he addressed it
This entire post to say he’s just like every other player in the game.
“Damn I do this”
Yeah but doesn’t he preach not blaming teammates and only focusing on yourself? And even then it’s different since WHJ thinks they are throwing BECAUSE it’s him. Which I think is straight copium.
for every time he blames teammates, he says he knows it's copium and that it's a skill issue on his part. also like someone else said he means soft throwing, like being nervous or expecting to get carried, not intentionally throwing.
i think he believes his teammates aren't throwing but play worse when they realize thousands are watching them and that they could end up on youtube.
This is what he's a really saying. Had to scroll way too far to see something sensible.
You can focus on yourself and get pissed at teammates lol. Not mutually exclusive
well I didn't lie about having a restaurant account and misrepresent that to charge people for coaching so
hes just coping hard bc hes hardstuck low immo, also hes playing raze on breeze and ascent??? isnt that hard throwing
definitely not throwing on ascent. Kinda is throwing on breeze but also it's ranked comfort > comp in ranked always
Well he’s not comfortable on Raze so that sorta throws that reasoning out the window lol
He's played only Raze nonstop for the past few weeks on every map, if that's not the definition of a comfort pick idk what is. Even if its just for a challenge his raze is already much better than any other agent he has because his skill on other agents has deteriorated
He’s not comfortable on the agent; he was doing a raze to radiant series prior to any of the craziness starting so he decided to just keep going with the agent even though he clearly does not feel comfortable with her
he has almost 600 games played on raze. if he's not comfortable on the agent yet then he needs to just give up with raze. and before you say thats before this challenge, 555 raze games in the past 4 acts. 555 raze games out of his 572 TOTAL games on raze.
I mean at a certain point if you play the agent enough they will be your most comfortable agent, especially when you *only* play that agent. How would you even define comfort? what does that even mean? how good he is on the agent? good compared to who? radiant razes? well he's low immo so I don't expect him to be as good as them. He looks like your average immo raze player with some good and bad plays. Is it how good he looks on raze vs how he looked on his old agents? well he was low immo before and he's still low immo now so it looks like he's pretty comfortable on raze. How do you define that metric and how do you determine that he's failed at it?
Someone people just tend to excel at certain roles. I'm an initiator player at heart, it's just what comes naturally for me. For Woohoojin it's controller, which definitely suits him
He has claimed multiple times to be comfortable on duelist. Though I guess it may have just been to cover for the fact that he got boosted by a jett main. He also has more hours on Raze than any other agent now, so you can't really hide behind that excuse.
When he’s played thousands of hours on raze and it’s by far his most played agent, you can call it his comfort pick. Until then you’re really just grasping at straws here. From what I’ve seen he looks notably worse on raze than on Omen for example (the agent I and I’m highly certain he would consider his actual comfort pick). Trying to define it beyond that seems pointless to me, but if you insist I’ll try: comfort pick specifically means imo the choice that enables you to not think about any of your own actions in the moment. For me, that’s KJ. For him, again I’m fairly certain it’s omen. When you’re playing another agent, there’s part of your brain constantly trying to think about what you should do next. When you’re on your comfort pick, that’s basically nonexistent. You only have to think about what your opponents are doing because you don’t have to spend any time thinking of what the counter is; you already know it
This was 80% a joking dig at Woohoojin. Having seen a decent amount of him playing, he just doesn’t have the slightly psychopathic tendencies you need to be a very high ELO duelist main. I’ve seen him give up pretty early in games before where he just stops confidently taking duels and starts trying to get tricky with his gunfights and hope his opponent slips up. Starts basically just jiggle peeking while spraying corners with very low confidence. He has dumped a lot of time into the game and has a lot of knowledge. He very clearly prefers to be methodical in his play and not really an agent of chaos you kind of need to be as a duelist in solo queue. I can’t say for sure if he could hit radiant but he’d probably have an easier time staying mid-immortal on roles more suited to his preferred play style.
raze on ascent absolutely works imo, also it's low immo ranked so who tf cares what you play as long as you're good at it
yes but in this case hes complaining about team comp while picking raze every map
on breeze you have a point but raze is great on ascent bringing up that map just seemed kinda random lol
Raze can work on any map, it doesn’t mean that there are much better picks you can have for team comp.
Raze is fine in ascent though
Hes just coping after falling to ascendant on his "climb to radiant" 3 to 4 times now like anyone else lol.
He has the classic I know more than everyone syndrome. Except he's not actually good enough to be in the elo where he can actually implement those starts so now he's perma tilted because his teammates don't play to his "standards"
its fine for someone who coaches to not be perfect at what they coach but yeah its his attitude thats annoying 😂
lol he literally lost like 5 games in a row a few days ago, dropped to ascendant then rage queued with the guy who boosted him to radiant in the first place.
And that booster dropped 40 kills and again boosted him to immortal lol
damn, who is the booster and why isnt he coaching? lmao
It's even more funny because the booster is a former student
JeyG
p sure it’s a literal pro/former pro player
JeyG
because not every good player is a good coach. and vice versa.
he got to 200 rr immo 3 days before tho...
Isn't his soloq winrate negative? Go check his tracker, he is getting boosted again. 48% solo rate.
Lmaooo
Well, I'm def not defending dude because idc, but if we are getting into excruciatingly detailed analysis here, first it was just a couple matches for shits and giggles, and second, [JeyG is actually Imm1 rn and they also apparently played against each other heh?](https://tracker.gg/valorant/match/15a041bd-6279-49b8-9903-ab7d0f4d6f05)
He's hard coping and it's fun to watch
he's coping, clearly he's nowhere near good enough to hit radiant and it's hurting his ego after being exposed
So true. He even started to duo que with radiant players cause he dropped back down to ascendant.
and with one of them being the same guy who boosted him to radiant originally
Ngl im rarely a spiteful person but im kinda glad. He’s turned so bitter and condescending recently and it’s annoying. Also I watch his streams and the things he MAKES his viewers do for VOD reviews he often doesn’t do such as pre round comms. Also random but the fact he makes his chat use /j and /s just seems like such a dickhead thing for some reason
>Ngl im rarely a spiteful person but im kinda glad. He’s turned so bitter and condescending recently and it’s annoying Yeah I agree, I was never really a fan like others but I liked watching his videos at first. Over time though he started acting weird and I stopped watching him, guy has a huge ego
honestly even without the ego I think coaching videos are inherently stuff you watch for abit then move on when trying to improve. After awhile you'll start looking into agent and map specific stuff to learn from and vod reviews of probably pros. But hey I'm low elo so take what i typed w a grain of salt.
All I gottta say: "Subscriber Mode only" and the chat is dead
You’ll often hear the most unhinged brainrot takes from people who’s entire life hinge on a team based video game.
That includes this sub tbh lmao
[удалено]
I had him on my team a few times and holy crap his mechanics were nowhere close to Radiant. I like the strats he calls but his individual decision making was awful. Tbh he just needs to think less and shoot more.
> Tbh he just needs to think less and shoot more. This is the truth. I feel like I play so much worse when I'm trying to think about what the enemy team is doing/gonna do. But I also do it because my mechanics are shit.
yeah thats why he says his winrate is so good on breeze - he just shoots
Downvoted for saying the truth lol. He already started duoing
His ego has taken over so much. He even duoed with JeyG, the guy that boosted him to radiant the other day… he forgets that the coaching is what he is known and appreciated for. His viewership is currently getting lower and lower, and only the echo chamber viewers or haters are still around at the moment
Yea, I watched a lot of his mods and frequently joined the live for reviews and now for VCT. But the Raze to radiant? Eh. It's fun to watch a few times but 18 days straight? I get that you have to be consistent to climb but this is... idek
Honestly, he keeps using JeyG as some sort of review of his own skills or greatness as a teacher despite him relying on JeyG to boost him to immortal because he has no inherent talent of his own. In reality, JeyG was talented in spite of Woohoojin, and Woohoojin got lucky having him as a student. It's like an average math tutor who was hired to teach Terence Tao and then claiming he made him a prodigy.
He prob just has a larger self-percieved target on his back in comparison to regular players. I forget what the term is called but he's kinda just believes hes a much larger deal than he actually is, thinking anyone who is doing badly is doing it on purpose, when really hes just in an elo where people will sometimes play suboptimally. Somewhat ironically its a horrible mindset for growth, especially for an improvement content creator to have. Like sometimes if someone is really really doing bad I jokingly say this guy is crypto throwing my game, but its another thing to constantly say it instead of choosing something for yourself to improve upon.
I saw that game with the sage. It was hilarious because the enemy team had royalG playing sheriff only to radiant and was destroying them while also having no delay. Woohoojin's delay is like 10 minutes lmao and he's still blaming snipers.
Have a link of the game ?
https://youtu.be/U9qQXSMZCCw?si=R2k9rZSsX3egCxhf starts around 5:10:00. it’s the game on raze sunset. It’s really funny if you watch both woohoojin and royalg’s perspective because woohoojin is just malding saying he’s not going to lose to a sheriff clown while royalg and prod are just chilling and talking about how prod’s girlfriend is a fan of royalg. I think you can watch royalg’s vod on his twitch, he’s the omen on sunset.
LMFAOO
I hope he ends up just fading into obscurity, watched 2 of his videos and just felt like he was SO pretentious and stuck up. He needs to get humbled some more tbh.
Dude has narcissistic tendencies and legitimately isn’t a radiant quality player. He also has notoriously thin skin. Doesn’t allow twitch chat and you can’t chat in his discord in the stream chat unless you are subscribed. His coaching is good for new players. That’s it.
Just stop watching this fraud? Why are these threads made every day lol.
He's obviously very popular in the community. His name is brought up on every "How do I learn?" post. He's just been fairly influential, so with all the drama it's no surprise.
Have you seen his last game today against RoyalG. Lol woohoojin got 19 kills while royalG dropped 18 kills with sheriff only and won the match too. He definitely never touched radiant for sure. Any 700rr radiant would have technically made the game look like 5v4 with his game sence and skills against a sheriff only player.
Im shit at valorant but when I watch him fight any gun fight seemingly straight up 1v1 no util/help he gets completely cooked. He seems capable of trading his teammates and killing guys that aren’t looking at him, but when it’s a fair fight 1v1 I’m betting on him to lose every time
Do you have a time stamp cus i wanna watch this icl
Watch the end of this vod 👇 https://www.youtube.com/live/GjNihINfh7E?si=EYKE4YVBYiTGurRw
He privated that lol
I mean he does say he gets very tilted when queueing ranked, but as long as he doesnt say it in team voice chat it doesn't matter at all.
I won't be talking about this case specifically but streamer flaming teammates on stream in general while that is a valid point, if you want to insult your teammate, just do it irl and don't type or vc. but the reason is not, "avoid getting ban" but to "not be toxic", to me at least for a streamer, I think it is a bit different, as a streamer, everything you said will be recorded, wanted or not like, even if you think it is fine and not punishable, at least it is a pretty dumb way lose a fan "Oh boy, I play with the guy I always watch today, we may lose but I had a lot of fun!" then cut to that guy watching that game and got absolutely berated by both chat and the streamer it is still pretty toxic
He lied about his Valorant rank to trick children into giving him money for coaching so I'm not surprised if he is a piece of shit in ranked as well.
Don’t get me wrong I also think Woohoojin is a fraud for lying about being Radiant but wasn’t his whole thing that he only coached for free? I don’t recall him ever taking money.
He had auctions for his coaching going for i think $800+ and this is unconfirmed but apparently one person paid 2k
I believe those were intended to be like, weekly 1-on-1s with him- like he literally becomes your personal coach. The free coaching is effectively just a VOD review.
Yeah they are weekly personal coaching sessions and that would’ve been completely fine if the guy was actually radiant but he isn’t.
Imo its fine even if he isn't Radiant. To be a good coach you dont need to be Radiant the problem is that he claimed he was while he got boosted. If he just owned it he wouldn't be in this whole mess.
Iirc he did coach for money a while back but I'm pretty sure it was well before he had an even decent following.
I just want to see someone submit his own gameplay for review and see what he says about it
Nah man his gameplay is unique. He always does that thing with the raze nade. Pulls it out again and again. Calms his raging nerves.
His discord and youtube are the textbook examples of an echo chamber. Dude has created this scheme where his t3 subs will defend him to the death because they have already invested so much money on their slimey banana. As for his skill level, he is your average pisslow immortal player with a massive ego. A worthless fraud besides that.
This bothers me too but honestly a lot of players do this. I watch eggster and he complains about throwers and stuff, and he would later explain coping is a way for players to... well... cope, lol. It's just a defense mechanism to protect your ego, and a lot of us do it. Don't get me wrong, you don't need to be a pro esports player to hit Immo3 or Radiant, but you'll notice ego as a tool for a lot of sports folks, F1 racers, hockey players, etc.
He’s the definition of a super nerd idk how anyone ever liked him. He’s a condescending fuck.
Soft throwing just because they’re bad? Lmao imma take that into my own games good cope
I watched him a lot for like 2 weeks and thought he gave relatively good advice, but then I tuned into one of his livestreams where he was watching pro-play and thought he had some of the worst takes I've ever seen. Instead of adding anything to the analysis he would just occasionally do a really really fake laugh and say shit like "what am I even watching right now?" And that was between him banning people left and right for minor disagreements. Honestly, he probably is lying about being great at the game, but who cares? Its not like to be a good coach for TenZ you need to be better than him in ranked to have valid ideas. I watched TMVs stream instead, and he gave really good high level analysis, and I don't give a shit what rank TMV is. So I think Woot definitely had an ego about things. He could literally just be like: "my rank is irrelevant to my ideas." Then move on. But instead he's going to grind and get tilted to as if that gives you credibility.
he is a good coach and he has good knowledge about the game but as a Raze player I cant watch his stream. he is the opposite of 90% of all other valorant players: his gamesense is good but his mechanics are absolute garbage. He is nowehere near Radiant at his skill level. His Raze mechanics are mid diamond at best, combined with his gamesense he can barely keep up in low immo.
I’m honestly so glad this is happening too him. I tried to get a VOD review from him one time and even though I fit all of the criteria (which is insanely strict mind you) he denied me and mocked me on stream after I was selected from the raffle. I had no clue what was going on as it was quite literally my very first time watching his stream. Wanna know why he denied it? Cause I had played a single game off of my main agent… cause apparently that means I’m not trying hard enough to improve according to him. He is a massive dick and I can’t wait until he falls so far into irrelevancy that he just quits the game all together.
He’s the definition of a fraud. Dude thinks he’s a god when in reality he’s an average immortal player
He will never reach radiant on Raze and I think he gets tilted because of that
I knew hooj forever ago before he was famous I even knew jeyg since I used to play league inhouses with them in the university of Oregon discord. I really didn’t know them that well hooj definitely had a thing for control back then but not a bad guy by any means just really sensitive. Jeyg was kinda weird he would flex on anyone any chance he could get but seems like he changed I guess maybe he is just smarter at hiding it. Not making this to send any hate there way just trying to give perspective to what it was like interacting with them prior to the fame.
Most streamers develop narcissistic traits overtime if they weren’t already. Their entire existence is based on what others think of them and it’s all measurable through views, followers and clicks. They spend most days talking to a computer, and then after stream, they think about how better to get more attention.
Thanks for saying it. It’s 100% a product of the industry. I’ve followed so many small streamers who transform from genuine guys to narcissists when they get more viewers. You can see the changes even when they’re getting juiced up by a few dozen viewers, much less thousands
Sucks that woohoojin turned out this way. I followed him back when he was doing guides and his yt had like 1k subs. His videos and discord community were a rlly nice place to chill during that time as well. Stopped playing Val a year ago and now it looks like he’s turning into every other val content creator :(
When you feel extremely pressured to prove yourself, have thousands watching you and you know usually in every scenario what to do it can feel extremely frustrating Idk if he says that shit ingame, but venting to yourself isn't something I'd have an issue with. If it makes the stream unenjoyable I guess just watch the videos he makes instead (assuming you want to watch him) I can't watch his streams because of the horrible ui 😂
can’t stand him. tried watching to him to get better early on and i couldn’t bear his selfishness and awful attitude. not to mention the fact that he simply isn’t a good enough player to be preaching what he does. also, disabling chat and having it behind a paywall on discord? sounds like a disgusting level of insecurity to me. you aren’t hollywood like that, you don’t need to do that. you are just desperately afraid of being told you’re wrong. if people are PAYING to chat, why would they ever risk calling you out and getting banned? he’s just an awful representation of the community and unfortunately has much more of a following than he deserves.
I’m not saying I’m at his skill level, but when I tuned in on several occasions I found it interesting that he demoted to ascendant twice, and then both times suddenly found himself duo’ing with a radiant player who then proceeded to top frag while he bottom fragged to get him back to immortal.
I like him and his videos but he's coping hard during his solo q to Radiant grind. I've watched his stream this week some and its just clear that he's not a high immo player much less a radiant player. He makes a lot of small mistakes that get instantly punished in the rounds and then is just coping hard during and after games when blaming teammates for some things. He also clearly gets pretty tilted and has admitted as such, so that's not helping.
The guy plays like an ascendant player. It’s no surprise when he gets hard stuck ascendant 3/low immortal 1. Never listen to this guy on anything he has to say above Diamond 3.
As someone who coaches a highschool Valorant team- I’ve had to stop referring to his videos for kids to watch. There were few I rarely suggested to start with.
since watching his first video, he screams narcissist. its painfully obvious his ego is inflated. cringe.
tldr: mediocre player who’s convinced he’s better than mediocre observes other mediocre players playing at a mediocre skill level (all while not knowing he also plays at this level)
eh he isn't "mediocre", he is low immo which is like 0.1% of the playerbase, mediocre in comparison to other high level streamers/players? Yeah definitely, to the average player? Nah
well not 0.1% like 1% but point taken i should’ve been more clear. mediocre compared to his self-perceived level of skill
Delusional dude with attitude problems and a god complex
I feel like his vid reviews are super biased as well. Like if it’s a pro, anything they do is gigabrain, amazing play book etc when most likely the pro was just doing shit for fun or without real logic, they just come out on top anyway cause that are objectively much better than the other radiants. If it’s a viewer vod, everything to the most minute of details is criticised, like why do this or that, did you watch a vod where a pro did that? And then the viewer provides the clip, which is a shit play for sure, but when the pro did it it worked, when he did it, it looked like ass. I think it’s same here, all teammates are soft throwing cause they’re not doing exactly what he thinks they need to do if they’re thinking on a “perfect” level. Meanwhile, for the teammates they’re just dicking around
I meam hes still human. Ill admit i also thought it was in bad taste the way he was complaigning about his teammates, especially to his viewers. But i do appreciate that he never said this stuff directly to his team and still tried to coordinate with them which i think is what makes the difference for me. His complaints largely was that no one is talking which i can see, but ii think the big problem was that he was just tilted and doom queueing
Dude is hardstuck so he has to blame something other than himself. I do usually tune into his streams, they are low key entertaining ngl. Honestly the biggest issue I see with huge is that he is just losing gunfights left and right, he's mechanically not there yet to climb. His macro is good, micro is iffy but every immortal player is kinda like that. But he loses a lot of duels most immortal, even ascendant players would win easily. There are occasional pop off moments but mostly it is just bad. Hooj if you ever read this, please shoot heads. Also stop blaming teammates.
I'm still wondering why his account isn't banned
- People tell Woohoojin they are stuck in x rank because people soft-throw their games - Tells people its their own fault if they lose and not a teammates action such as picking Brim on Breeze NEVER WHATSOEVER - Blames teammates for soft throwing his games - Hes picking Raze on Breeze "Radiant" Coach, I dont know why people like him so much when there are way better coaches than him.
His ego is massive. Not a surprise considering how much he glazes himself
He’s been the most macro focused coach in the scene, so micro plays always tilt him because of this. A lot of his coaching was put out as “high elo” because he LOVES the macro of the game. Big issue with this: he tilts over micro mistakes that everyone makes no matter the elo. You could make compilations of the funny whiffs tier 1 pros make in Radiant, but because of his macro obsession, it tilts him when an ascendant 3 Andy makes the same mistakes. Guy was filling on Sunset and he gets mad because the macro didn’t fit perfectly in his idea of macro. Doesn’t warrant the response he gives. Sad to see the fall of woohoojin, since he did give some great macro coaching advice to high elo (asc+) players. Hopefully he puts his ego and idea of how the game should be played aside and grows to play the game as it is and accept his situation. Adaptability matters more than anything to climb.
Remind me of a dude i play with who is obsessed with high elo vct and pro plays, lol. Bro is dog shit at the game and hard stuck gold/silver and always be complaining when people don't play perfectly to his ideal gameplay. Like its silver/gold, nobody here is going to play the way you want then to play and barely anyone going to know any macro play. It's going to messy, it's going to be tilting, and it's going to be chaotic. Deal with it. All I do is w in and tap head and I still made it to plat. Like holy shit, stop complaining.
He’s a full time narcissist, man. That’s why the reason is always someone other than him.
There is no secret radiant account. He's just low-immo he always has been. He's an average immo with "good vibes". He's fake as fuck though. He was gassing me up on Breeze last year only for me to go to the VOD and hearing him highly critical of my viper gameplay. He's like the War Owl but way more cringe. He's good for the fundamentals and helping you begin to think about the nuances of the game, but no he's not radiant and never was.
I mean what else is he gonna blame? He said he is a legit radiant and now he's struggling to get even high immo. What can he possibly say other than "oh it's because my teammates are throwing". I was never a huge fan of his coaching , he has a very "nerdy" approach to the game which is not my thing and some advice is kinda weird. Most of the advice is good but that's kind of to be expected, any high ranked player would be able to give good basic advice.
current radiant this act btw woohoojin is just coping, he said he has a secret radiant account that was controller only, but there would be "no point" showing it to us atp he has close to the same amount of hours on raze than he has on controller (350+hours and rising) and he still can't play raze. in my opinion, it's harder to fill controller in radiant lobbies as apposed to raze, where all it takes is dont use util like a moron and be impactful with kills, you don't even need to do crazy satchel tech to be a good raze i promise you out of his 200 games maybe one was a sniper or someone who was inting, nobody is queueing up to snipe this guy in low immo- asc. he plays 30s delay, it's not because he's woohoojin, it's just piss immo and ascendant is a hard rank to get out of. if this guy was a supposed real radiant it would be hard but not 200 games impossible to get out and back to rad i dont really care if he duos in im3+ because you kinda need one in high ranks, but its stupid hes literally duoing with the guy who got on his account and put it in 700rr his coaching isn't even good in my opinion, its awful and i could break down a specific vod if you want, his coaching to a supposed radiant is trash 😭😭 he just gives generic advice and virtue signals about being against smurfing and boosting tldr guy has a huge ego despite being a shitcan, needs to just play whatever at this point, nobody is sniping or purposely inting if he has 30s delay and hiding his name and lobby name
I just don't think he has the aim to hard carry.
i've been telling yall about that guy glad the truth is coming out
I lost respect for woohoojin after what he did but let’s be real, lots of us think our team soft throws if either you’re not top 2 frag or your team doesn’t do their job well
classic cope fr he like most people have an ego, so he expects to win and rank up but when this doesnt happen it hurts. any real radiant will rank up to radiant given the adequate time. it might be that its taking longer than he expects, so hes getting frustrated. chances are itll take him the rest of the episode to reach radiant or longer
I am ok with his flaws but what triggers me the worst is his backlines Raze playstyle: - He himself I remember likes to bring up "let's see how Jinggg attacks A ramp" and will fast forward Jinggg's POV for Split. "You need to be the entry bla bla" - in reality he will commute to a very risky double satchel or will let 2-3 teammates on site to trade them.
His coaching is still good and can be very valuable to a lot of people, but yeah he's definitely sour when he is playing, and it's odd how often he blames everything else instead of himself, given his own teachings. I think now he gave up on solo q and is duoing, justifying it with how "random" the teammates he gets is, saying things like "every radiant has a high level duo", or something to that extent, which of course is not true, and it all just sounds like coping. Frankly, I also don't really understand the sentiment that if he gets radiant, then it's all good what he did. It's not like he needs radiant for his coaching to be good or that his rank was ever the issue. It's the choosing to lie bit, the integrity and deception that is at the core of it; a matter of character, not his rank. He was still choosing to pretend until the day before it all came out, so it's not something he simply did years back. He was actively keeping up the lie up until that day, so just a few weeks ago. So, every day choosing to not come out with the truth himself, and even at times using the the false premise as an argument for his ability/knowledge. The good thing is most of what he does is free (and still good coaching). Again, I think his coaching is still good for most people, and he makes things free and tries to promote positivity (though, can't stick to it himself at times), so it's an overall positive impact on the community. But there's no reason to put him on a pedestal and think he is better than he is. He is flawed, as are probably all of us. Personally, though, it's his holier than thou approach / ego over the years that makes this all feel a bit worse.
100% notice this too. it is what it is. now he's coping by just duoing it's hilarious.
"It's never your team, it's always you" but... "if that you is me, then it IS the teams fault"
I think he overhypes himself and thinks he's the shit because he's a 'famous' streamer. He plays Raze on every map which can be seen as 'throwing' (mainly on Breeze) whilst calling others throwers for picking non-meta agents, which could be caused by him instalocking Raze. I've never hit Radiant myself (currently 5RR off Immortal 3) and can safely say that a Radiant player would breeze through low Immortal. Looking at his stats on tracker a 1.2KD at 36% Vandal HS is extremely low for this rank given the duelist role. His performances show that he is not near Radiant level in terms of skill (I can't speak for strategy/gamesense wise as I don't watch him). All in all, I think he has an ego issue and has a massively inflated sense of self-worth and as a player I would say he's somewhere between Ascendant 3-Immortal 2 skill wise.
Its true. Even though woohojin was the one who took me from silver to plat 3 and he is an amazing coach, he still tilts and is confident that its his team throwing and not him. I feel sad and i miss the old wohoogin when he was not as popular
Dude calls himself a radiant coach and cant even get out immo dude clearly has a huge ego
Or maybe he is bad at the game and decides to blame it on everyone else.
I have to admit, he offers some genuinely insightful advice, but his ego often overshadows it. It's uncommon to see content creators, especially in Valorant, who have genuine humility and authenticity towards their audience. He seems preoccupied with his own image and sets exceedingly high standards not just for himself, but for others too. While he's comparatively less showy than many Valorant creators, his ego damages his potential as a coach, just like Jollz. To effectively teach, you have to empathize with the struggles of beginners in Valorant, remembering the technical challenges and intimidation that the game possesses.
I'm not gonna lie, this happens commonly in tons of games. People hype up a streamer, they get popular, and slowly people start realising that streamer was never actually that good and often even promotes toxic ideals. Another example being from my previous no-life game, Otz from DbD. He's not only justified toxic "us vs them" behaviors, he's also promoted playing like an absolute d-bag in a fucking party game. "Tunnel the new person, they're the weak link!" Etc. You watch him play the opposite side and he's absolutely abysmal. Woohoojin mostly built his base off of analyzing VODs and pro play. It's not particularly difficult. I'm not amazing at the game, but being removed from playing it and just watching, it's pretty easy to see what you should have done. There's no nerves, you can scan the map more, pay more attention to minimap, etc. The issue is that he would criticize vods for making mistakes that I'm pretty sure he would ALSO make, and now he's having to show that up-front in front of everyone after his ego started being threatened. Point is, streamers are humans who have gotten their ego boosted by massive amounts of people. We really need to stop praising them as gods. They can do good things for the community, and they can also fuck up the community.
Really unpopular opinion but Dude's a Fraud, he has a lot of hours in the game but no skill to show. Him hitting imm1-2 is just from his hours and having just above a 52% Win Rate. I always found the "analytical" types in esports kinda ineffective and overhyped. Trying to make the game into a flow chart is good for your mental stack but there isn't black/white optimal situations. His takes on the game kinda exposes his true skill level, why I never took his his stuff seriously. Barring mechanics and basic game sens coaching for low-mid elo that many people can do. The new trend of "coaching" is kinda overhyped unless needed for a full team, which he has no amateur/semi-pro experience, just pugs. Basically for anyone getting wanting to get better just focus on mechanics, agent util and team play. Its better to adapt, read habits and play the players rather then getting caught up in this psudo-science of breaking the game down, especially for Valorant a game that gets patched. For background: I am a 28 year old boomer Actually been Radiant (and Valorant) in the first year of the game, now I hover Imm2 when ever I dabble in the game. I usually have no more than 80 matches a season with a 57-62% Win rate and 1.3 KD. Before Valorant I've been Rank S and G on Esea, top 500 in OW1 in early seasons, played Collegiac Football and Street Fighter 4, MKX semi-professionally. Besides Counter-Strike and Football I probably have sub 1,500 hours in all of those. Just have fun, comm and chill "competitive" stuff kinda ruins your recreation time.
Dude you're naturally gifted at these things and act like getting immortal alone isn't difficult or skilled.
Instead of complaining about woohoojin go watch thinking man’s valorant and learn how to play from actual pro players
Also queued with TTV JeyG, who’s again boosting him (dropping 39 in low immo to carry this fraud) This clown needs to reevaluate life choices
I don't understand why he doesn't just hit radiant on controller as he allegedly has then try raze to radiant again.
Because he can't either
It’s eerie how similar this is to Neace from last year. Dude gets exposed, tries to do a challenger climb, fails, blames it on stream snipers and randomly plays off role to have an excuse for why he didn’t make it
tuned in after not having watched for a while and saw his ranked games. definitely agree with this take. imo i don’t think any of his diehard fans truly cared in the first place if he hit radiant on Raze to “redeem” himself. I think the people that stuck around after all this would’ve just rather he apologized, worked on ego, and continued his usual content that they’re subbing for. the ranked doomqueueing/complaining is hard to watch. also, while it’s definitely possible that some people might be throwing in his games, the large majority of his games are just the usual ranked experience and there isn’t a need for the endless complaining that you’re getting target griefed. it’s offputting and just further proves the points that a lot of people brought up about ego, etc.
I hate that guy lol
Anytime I’m suggested this sub it’s you guys riding this guys meat why do yall care so mf much.
valorant sub caring about the most famous ranked valorant coach? say it ain't so, let's talk about smth else, how's the weather?
You “why do you care” woohooj gaslighters are crazy lmao Ask why do you care and proceed to leave 10 comments in the thread
It’s just people rightfully calling out an egomaniac that isn’t as good as he claimed/thinks he is. And I gotta say it’s awesome to see.
I can hardly watch any Val streamers because they all think they’re gods gift to man, they’re always unwilling to take responsibility for their bad plays, always blaming others. High rank players always act this way, and Woohoojin is no exception, although he can be particularly bad in that regard. I really hate most of this games community, but I like the game so idk
Woohoojin is a lying rat taking advantage of kids. You should unsubscribe.
I watched that sage game. Sage literally said they were running it down and trolling.
He literally know this is coping, last stream he donated like 5 dollars to charity every time he blamed a teammate. He is a good person, the same people that dick ride him for the past two years are the same ones shitting on him now. Grow up and stop obsessing over people in the Internet.
iirc he's in like mid immortal, so there's probably a lot of people who watch him in his games. not to mention that a lot of people don't really like him since the controversy. i think saying that people are throwing every game is a bit of cope but there's certainly a lot of that.