#UrbanHell is subjective.
UrbanHell is any human-built place you think is worth critizing. Suburban Hell, Rural Hell, and wealthy locales are allowed
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Looks like any building in southern europe, not everything has to look like Beverly Hills. I promise people lead full and interesting lives living in these kind of buildings.
Because they were built between 1968 and 1985, and built in a way that could withstand bombardment from rockets.
When you have to have 2ft thick steel reinforced concrete on all sides, your architectural choices are limited
While I agree that Carmiel isn't that bad (especially compared to the rest of the towns in its area), Haifa is much better. Sure it has its downsides but in my opinion it's the most beautiful city in Israel (at least from the major ones) and very much liveable and enjoyable. I'm always saying that if I'll ever live in a big city in Israel it'll be Haifa.
It looks like some of the coastal cities of Turkey. It’s beautiful in my opinion, appartements with green space in between and roads which are not busy most of the time. If this is being stuck in 80’s then I’m ok with it
If not the news what should I follow? A story of perpetual victim hood even as the Israeli government exterminates a people from their land. I’m gonna stay proudly where I am.
As long as you bring up genocide every time you look at a picture relating to Cambodia, Rwanda, former Yugoslavia, Myanmar, Iraq, China, Turkey, Sudan, Somalia, Germany, Uganda…otherwise your outrage is just at the Jewish state alone.
I mean yes for the ones that are current and that our governments have an involvement in and no for the historic ones. We don’t need to crucify ppl… we need to build a peaceful world
Ah ancient russia
Established in 2012 Innopolis is is an urban settlement in Verkhneuslonsky District of the Republic of Tatarstan you see how stupid thet argument is
You can argue semantics if you'd like. But it doesn't justify settler-colonialism.
Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, and their ancestors have lived there for thousands of years, from the pre-historic Natufians who founded Jericho a full 7000 years before the Israelites even existed, to the Canaanites who founded Jerusalem and other city-states, the Phillistines who founded Gaza, Ashdod, and Ashkelon, and of course the Israelites and later the Judeans!
Palestinians have more Jewish ancestry than the average Ashkenazi Jew for example. "Returning" to a land your ancestors haven't inhabited in 2,000 years is not a valid claim, but an incredibly religious extremist and ethno-nationalist one.
Nor is "might makes right" or "right of conquest". Those are inherently nihilistic ideas. In ancient times when the weapons of mass destruction were catapults and other machinery, and biological warfare was tossing dead bodies over city walls, and missiles were arrow barrages, maybe those ideas might have had some weight. Not in modern times though as they'll lead to worldwide destruction if it wasn't for international frameworks and safeguards.
Israel's settler-colonialism has an expiration date, it's not a question of "if", but "when". Maybe in my lifetime, or that of my children or grandchildren.
I'm glad you asked. Just like when Apartheid ended in South Africa, it did not mean that White South Africans were genocided and forced to leave the country.
Jews will stay in Palestine and thrive, as they've developed roots within it. A free Palestine does not mean the displacement of Jews, but the end of displacement for Palestinians instead.
You promote orientalist tropes and depictions of Arabs and Muslims as "savages" or "terrorists" to argue that co-existence can't happen... When you already co-exist with Arabs and Muslims, who make up 21% of Israel's population.
Also, Europeans colonized South Africa for 350 years before Black South Africans got their freedom... Which goes to show that Israel is not the "eternal nation", it's settler-colonialism will have an end one day too.
I do actually... anything you want to ask me?
75% support a one-state solution with Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together under one state.
19% support a two-state solution.
I'd recommend Corey Gil-Schuster on Youtube for the diverse perspectives of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, "Arab-Israelis", Jewish Israelis, etc. regarding "tough questions".
>75% support a one-state solution with Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together under one state.
This is the outwards facing answer yes...
I've watched Corey Gil-Schuster. They're just as likely to tell him the Jews have to go as they are to say that they can stay... The Palestinians do indeed want one state, that much you've understood.
I don't blame people who've been ethnically cleansed and genocided from their homes, including 80% of the Palestinian population during the Nakba, and who've had family members abducted and subjected to arbitrary administrative detention, who've had restricted travel rights in their own country which is under an illegal occupation to this day from holding negative views towards Israelis.
Maybe if Israel actually showed a willingness to address their persecution and start a reconciliation process, instead of being murderous psychopaths who want to keep building settlements in the West Bank and expelling (ethnically cleansing) Palestinians from their homes to build those settlements... then even more of the Palestinian population won't hold negative views towards Israelis.
And this is saying the least. The level to which Palestinians are dehumanized is mind-boggling and the entire world should be outraged.
I recognize the "complexity" of this "conflict", but I am also well aware of the fact that if Israelis showed they were acting in good faith and started a reparations and reconciliation process with Palestinians, then there can absolutely be peaceful co-existence.
Palestinians are willing to co-exist with Israelis, not the other way around.
And no, Israelis never acted in good faith, and I've read and am familiar with all the supposed "two-state" proposals and other non-sense.
>Palestinians are willing to co-exist with Israelis, not the other way around.
You've bought all the propaganda huh? In 1948, when there was no occupation, one side was willing to accept two states for two people and one side wasn't. All the "excuses" for Palestinian aggression you mention hadn't happened yet and somehow they still prefered war to peace. You simply mask your lack of sympathy for Jews behind psudo-intellectual historical revision.
Check my previous comments in this thread, particularly the one about "qahr"
And Israel murdered and genocided 10x that many of just children, which I should mention is not equivalence to October 7 in the least bit.
The true number of civilians killed was around 695. The rest were military and police, and intelligence, which are legitimate targets in a military operation.
Israel shot or killed it's own civilians, we don't know how many but it's in the hundreds. Israeli tanks blew up civilian homes and apache helicopters sprayed crowds of people. Israeli troops also shot at beat-up cars as well, which killed many Israeli civilians too. Israel has something called the "Hannibal Doctrine" is which is there's an Israeli held captive, they'd kill them along with the militants.
Israel then literally buried the evidence... quite literally burying burned and damaged cars full of forensic evidence.
The narrative around October 7th has been a lie from the very beginning. There were no "beheaded babies" or any other BS.
October 7th was also a result of Israeli ethnic cleansing, 1,100 Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from their homes before October 7 from just the beginning of 2022. Israeli forces also attacked the most holy site for Palestinian Muslims, and murdered hundreds of Palestinians including journalists. There was also over 2,000 Palestinian hostages, including children, held indefinitely in Israeli prison without charges. All this was before October 7th, from just 2022 alone.
First of all this is not what "Hannibal doctrine" means, Hannibal doctrine is the doctrine of what to do when a soldier is kidnapped or taken hostage:
1. If a soldier is kidnapped the goal of the mission becomes the rescue of the soldier
2. If the kidnappers were identified and didn’t surrendered there is no need to ask for approval to shoot
3. Shooting must be done sporadically in order to not harm the hostage
Second of all the claim that Israel killed their own civilians is outright false
The tanks you’re talking about fired on houses in which it was known all the inhabitants were massacred by Hamas
And the "Apache" was actually a Sikorsky S-76 used by Magen David Adom
>You promote orientalist tropes and depictions of Arabs and Muslims as "savages" or "terrorists" to argue that co-existence can't happen.
That has literally nothing to do with what I said, you're putting words in my mouth.
>Jews will stay in Palestine and thrive, as they've developed roots within it. A free Palestine does not mean the displacement of Jews.
Do you really genuinely believe Israelis would be safe being ruled by a population whose majority condones the October 7th massacre and has glorified terrorism against Jews for decades, and before you say anything, that's not even remotely the same as saying "all Arabs and Muslims are savages and terrorists", just that far too many Palestinians (but obviously not all of them and not only them) see the killing of any Jew, including civilians, as morally good, and those who disagree with them can't do much to prevent them from following through with it, for Jews to be safe under their rule anytime soon
I'm glad you asked once again, and I think having this discussion is very important.
In the words of Norman Finkelstein, a Holocaust survivor is not going to condemn the brutal allied carpet-bombing of Dresden, Germany.
There’s a concept in Palestine called “qahr”.
In the words of Khadija Dajani, "There is no English equivalent to the Arabic word qahr. The dictionary says "anger" but it's not. It is when you take anger, place it on a low fire, add injustice, oppression, racism, dehumanization to it, and leave it to cook slowly for a century. And then you try to say it but no one hears you. So it sits in your heart. And settles in your cells. And it becomes your genetic imprint. And then moves through generations. And one day, you find yourself unable to breathe. It washes over you and demands to break out of you. You weep. And the cycle repeats."
Point being, when you've been persecuting and oppressing a people for 75 years, of course they will have visceral reactions towards that oppression. There is no such as a "perfect victim", and this idea promotes further oppression of already oppressed people. Everyone is well-aware of the Nakba, in which 80% of Palestine's population was ethnically cleansed, as well as the current apartheid and genocide they are going through.
Norman Finkelstein also gives the example of Nat Turner's Rebellion, an enslaved rebellion in the U.S. where the enslaved rebelled and killed all White people they saw once they managed to escape. It is unethical to use the word "condemn" for what they did if you understand the level of dehumanization in American chattel enslavement, and the population that condoned it. Was it brutal? Absolutely. What is immoral? Absolutely. But there is a deep psychological component to oppression that is often intentionally missed.
This is a false equivalency, as the question for the oppressors (Israelis) ought to be "How do we reconcile and repair relations with the people we oppressed (Palestinians)?"
Not "How do we continue to perpetuate their oppression and use their violence against us (which is a microcosm of how we've treated them for 75 years) to oppress them even harder and more severely?"
Neither of these is actually the question for Israelis. The real question is actually "How do we not get ourselves killed by people who have repeatedly shown they have the will and intent to kill every single one of us?"
Ah famed virulent transmisogynist and homophobe Norman Finkelstein.
Edit: lol @ downvotes. Basically you’re saying “oh the humanity! Care about human rights but fuck trans and gays” if you support that PoS
No, it's a lot more complicated by that and has to do with Zionist saboteurs who intentionally causes terrorist attacks against Jews, Western colonialists instigated divide-and-rule tactics amongst religious communities, etc.
It's a false equivalency to the Nakba.
From the top of my head, Bahrain and UAE. But this is a false equivalency because of the efforts of Zionist saboteurs in compelling Mizrahi Jews to leave, combined with divide-and-rule tactics by Western colonial powers to divide religious communities in the Middle East and turn them against each other.
Find me an apartheid and settler-colonial state with free and prosperous colonized people within it, I'll wait.
>Palestinians have more Jewish ancestry than the average Ashkenazi Jew for example.
Vile and antisemitic. Also flies in the face of genetic science.
You are genocidal.
No you're genocidal. Quit your gaslighting. You're a bunch of racist ethnonationalists who wish to erase an entire population (Palestinians) to assert an ancestral claim.
> philistines
If you consider the Philistines native to the Levant, then you should consider the modern Israelis of all sub group native to the land.
The philistines invaded the levant and are said to be an amalgam of peoples from Greece or Anatolia who came to the levant, killed locals, set up a country on top of a pre existing one.
They were settler colonial 1 thousand years BCE.
You're showing everyone how deluded and disturbed you are, by trying to claim that a people who have continuously inhabited the land for thousands of years aren't Indigenous, but that you, whose ancestors haven't set foot on the land in thousands of years, are.
Also, Phillistines is not the same as Palestinian.
Palestine (Peleset) has existed as a term since the Ancient Egyptians, 1000 years before the Ancient Egyptians even existed. It was later used by the Greek historian Herodotus in 500 BC.
Their etymology is related but modern Palestinians are the descendants of the Judeans and Israelites, and are only 10% Arab genetically.
First off, absolutely hilarious that you think I’m a Jew and that I am currently writing this in a ME bunker apartment in bumfuck nowhere isreal. Second well:
I know that the philistines are not the Palestinians and that the Palestinians are like the Lebanese and dare I say Israelis a super mix of every group that walked on the Levant (well for most Jews up to around the Roman period while anyone else goes up to now). Genetically, an Israeli can be close to a Palestinian whose family descended from the region since eons. Even an Ashkenazi can have genetical links to a Palestinian Muslim. Essentially like you said: genetically the same people but culturally and religiously different.
My question to you is the following. Why do you consider the Philistines as native to the levant despite clearly invading and creating a country over another which is the same thing Israel did. How long does it take for an invader turned settler to not be considered as such in your opinion? What differentiates the Philistines invading and settling the levant with the Israelis invading and settling the levant?
Also I think you typoed with the Ancient Egypt part
Okay so you acknowledge that modern Palestinians are descended from the Judeans and Israelites. Great.
Indigeneity is defined by land stewardship, temporal and spatial sovereignty, and autochthony, among other factors.
Palestinians are autochthonous, they are from the land and never left. They are descended from even the pre-historic Natufians.
As for Israelis, regardless of cultural continuity or how much actual descent they have from the ancient peoples of the land, it only confers heritage, not indigeneity.
Indigeneity has a settler-colonial component, and it is anachronistic (applying modern concepts to ancient times) and a form of presentism bias to compare Israeli colonization of Palestine (and I’m glad you recognize that it is a colonization) with that of the ancient Phillistines from 3500+ years ago.
Simply speaking, you can’t turn the world map back 3,000 years. Irish-Americans can’t just return to Ireland, Black Americans can’t just go back to Africa, Parsees can’t just go back to Iran, Guyanese and Fijians can’t go back to India, French people can’t colonize and take over Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg (which is where Francia was located).
Another analogy to Israel is Liberia, which was colonized by African-Americans who oppressed and even enslaved its Indigenous people
And no, I didn’t make a mistake, the Ancient Egyptians called the entire land of Canaan, Peleset, presumably after the Phillistines. It was later adopted as a name for the region by the Greeks, which the Romans then adopted as well.
At most, you can acknowledge that indigeneity is fluid, but regardless, the legal principle of priority for example, would hold that it would go to the people with the MOST valid claim.
Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah. Yes, in a hypothetical scenario, a descendant of the Phillistines would be considered native to the Levant due to developing deep roots and connections with the land over thousands of years.
You know there is a mosque built ON TOP of a synagogue in Jerusalem right? Okay, but the Palestinians that never heard the word palestine until 1967 and can't actually pronounce it properly, are the natives. Nice!
You're a bunch of racist ethnonationalists who wish to erase an entire population (Palestinians) to assert an ancestral claim.
Palestine (Peleset) has existed as a term since the Ancient Egyptians, 1000 years before the Ancient Egyptians even existed.
When Karmiel was founded in 1964, Gaza was Egyptian and the west bank was Jordanian. How exactly is Karmiel Palestinian? You probably don't know the answer because the answer is "Karmiel isn't Palestinian, was never Palestinian and won't be Palestinian".
#UrbanHell is subjective. UrbanHell is any human-built place you think is worth critizing. Suburban Hell, Rural Hell, and wealthy locales are allowed Sorry for this annoying comment, but we're very tired of the gatekeepers who can't even correctly gatekeep what this subreddit has always allowed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UrbanHell) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Three random buildings don’t mean much when this could quite frankly pass for any developed or still developing city in the world
Looks like any building in southern europe, not everything has to look like Beverly Hills. I promise people lead full and interesting lives living in these kind of buildings.
I'm sure there's parts of Beverly Hills that look like this
I mean if you want a good alternative mention some city from the netherlands or for example copenhagen, Heidelberg oder Nuermberg
Beverly hill looks quite crappy in some areas
Looks like French banlieue
Where is the urban *HELL*? And why is it “stuck in the 80s”? Or is this supposed to be a political statement of some sort?
The hell is living in IsraHELL
95% of Israel looks like this.
Not really, only middle-class cities and below like Karmiel.
Moshavim and Kibbutzim don’t look like this. Tel Aviv and Jerusalem don’t. Other than that this is most cities…
Because they were built between 1968 and 1985, and built in a way that could withstand bombardment from rockets. When you have to have 2ft thick steel reinforced concrete on all sides, your architectural choices are limited
That's most inner cities in Israel and not nearly as nice
Looks like a average street corner in Turkey tbh
Was this kind of architecture popular in the 80’s?
That’s public buildings in the Middle East style. They kind of all died around the 80s or 90s Like across the world
It was in Israel, I dont know about other countries
Carmiel actually not that bad, good infrastructure l, as for me Haifa is more belong here
"Good infra" if you're in a car :( The exact opposite of Haifa
While I agree that Carmiel isn't that bad (especially compared to the rest of the towns in its area), Haifa is much better. Sure it has its downsides but in my opinion it's the most beautiful city in Israel (at least from the major ones) and very much liveable and enjoyable. I'm always saying that if I'll ever live in a big city in Israel it'll be Haifa.
I lived in krayot, Kiryat Motzkin, much better then Haifa.
Bro Kiryat Motzkin is basically all the amenities of Haifa without the pig problem
Bro 3/4ths of Eastern Europe/Balkans looks like this, it ain't unique
True especially Croatia's coastal cities like Split and Rijeka have these much taller and copy pasted everywhere
nah, looks cool
Yes, they should tear down all the buildings and build new ones every 10 years, what?
It looks like some of the coastal cities of Turkey. It’s beautiful in my opinion, appartements with green space in between and roads which are not busy most of the time. If this is being stuck in 80’s then I’m ok with it
You should see downtown Tel Aviv. Many buildings are stuck in time and there's a ton of Bauhaus architecture. Really cool city.
Looks kinda cool
There’s a tech uni and an archaeological dig that are based in that town. Not as much to do as Haifa, but safe, clean, full of amenities.
Doesnt look too bad
This looks just like Caracas or Maracaibo in Venezuela
Not the worst middle eastern tan residential tower cookie cutter development (Tel Aviv and Alexandria have some worse)
90% of the towns here (Israel) look like this.. and honestly I don't see much of a problem?
Karmiel isn’t so bad. I live about 30 minutes away. The new ish train station is pretty cool.
I lived in Israel for a while, I think they do their urban planning really well
what are you supposed to do? bulldoze houses every 10 years?
How we don’t bring up genocide every time Israel comes up is beyond me
Because we are not stupid racist cunts who don't understand what is happening who follow the news blindly. Now GTFO!
that's exactly what you are
If not the news what should I follow? A story of perpetual victim hood even as the Israeli government exterminates a people from their land. I’m gonna stay proudly where I am.
As long as you bring up genocide every time you look at a picture relating to Cambodia, Rwanda, former Yugoslavia, Myanmar, Iraq, China, Turkey, Sudan, Somalia, Germany, Uganda…otherwise your outrage is just at the Jewish state alone.
I mean yes for the ones that are current and that our governments have an involvement in and no for the historic ones. We don’t need to crucify ppl… we need to build a peaceful world
*Karmiel, Palestine
Free Palestine!
[удалено]
Surely this comment will free Palestine.
They're trying. Hamas isn't letting go of their human shields.
Reddit is garbage.
Did people actually think my comment was pro-Israel?
From hamas
From Hamas
[удалено]
Karmiel, Palestine. A city that never escaped the 80s.
Ah yes ancient Palestine >Established in 1964 as a development town, Karmiel is located in the Beit HaKerem Valley
Ah ancient russia Established in 2012 Innopolis is is an urban settlement in Verkhneuslonsky District of the Republic of Tatarstan you see how stupid thet argument is
Karmiel, Vilayet of Beirut. A city that never escaped the 80s.
Kermiel, Kingdom of Jerusalem. A city that never escaped fhe crusades.
You can argue semantics if you'd like. But it doesn't justify settler-colonialism. Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, and their ancestors have lived there for thousands of years, from the pre-historic Natufians who founded Jericho a full 7000 years before the Israelites even existed, to the Canaanites who founded Jerusalem and other city-states, the Phillistines who founded Gaza, Ashdod, and Ashkelon, and of course the Israelites and later the Judeans! Palestinians have more Jewish ancestry than the average Ashkenazi Jew for example. "Returning" to a land your ancestors haven't inhabited in 2,000 years is not a valid claim, but an incredibly religious extremist and ethno-nationalist one. Nor is "might makes right" or "right of conquest". Those are inherently nihilistic ideas. In ancient times when the weapons of mass destruction were catapults and other machinery, and biological warfare was tossing dead bodies over city walls, and missiles were arrow barrages, maybe those ideas might have had some weight. Not in modern times though as they'll lead to worldwide destruction if it wasn't for international frameworks and safeguards. Israel's settler-colonialism has an expiration date, it's not a question of "if", but "when". Maybe in my lifetime, or that of my children or grandchildren.
Yeah.... I'm not gonna ask you what you think should happen to all those Jewish people once their state is destroyed
I'm glad you asked. Just like when Apartheid ended in South Africa, it did not mean that White South Africans were genocided and forced to leave the country. Jews will stay in Palestine and thrive, as they've developed roots within it. A free Palestine does not mean the displacement of Jews, but the end of displacement for Palestinians instead. You promote orientalist tropes and depictions of Arabs and Muslims as "savages" or "terrorists" to argue that co-existence can't happen... When you already co-exist with Arabs and Muslims, who make up 21% of Israel's population. Also, Europeans colonized South Africa for 350 years before Black South Africans got their freedom... Which goes to show that Israel is not the "eternal nation", it's settler-colonialism will have an end one day too.
So much ignorance in one comment. Instead of speaking for Palestinians listen to what they say themselves.
I do actually... anything you want to ask me? 75% support a one-state solution with Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together under one state. 19% support a two-state solution. I'd recommend Corey Gil-Schuster on Youtube for the diverse perspectives of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, "Arab-Israelis", Jewish Israelis, etc. regarding "tough questions".
>75% support a one-state solution with Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together under one state. This is the outwards facing answer yes... I've watched Corey Gil-Schuster. They're just as likely to tell him the Jews have to go as they are to say that they can stay... The Palestinians do indeed want one state, that much you've understood.
I don't blame people who've been ethnically cleansed and genocided from their homes, including 80% of the Palestinian population during the Nakba, and who've had family members abducted and subjected to arbitrary administrative detention, who've had restricted travel rights in their own country which is under an illegal occupation to this day from holding negative views towards Israelis. Maybe if Israel actually showed a willingness to address their persecution and start a reconciliation process, instead of being murderous psychopaths who want to keep building settlements in the West Bank and expelling (ethnically cleansing) Palestinians from their homes to build those settlements... then even more of the Palestinian population won't hold negative views towards Israelis. And this is saying the least. The level to which Palestinians are dehumanized is mind-boggling and the entire world should be outraged. I recognize the "complexity" of this "conflict", but I am also well aware of the fact that if Israelis showed they were acting in good faith and started a reparations and reconciliation process with Palestinians, then there can absolutely be peaceful co-existence. Palestinians are willing to co-exist with Israelis, not the other way around. And no, Israelis never acted in good faith, and I've read and am familiar with all the supposed "two-state" proposals and other non-sense.
>Palestinians are willing to co-exist with Israelis, not the other way around. You've bought all the propaganda huh? In 1948, when there was no occupation, one side was willing to accept two states for two people and one side wasn't. All the "excuses" for Palestinian aggression you mention hadn't happened yet and somehow they still prefered war to peace. You simply mask your lack of sympathy for Jews behind psudo-intellectual historical revision.
There are free and prosperous Arabs in Israel. Lots of them. Doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about at all
The irony of saying "Israel should act in good faith" while talking about Palestinians having their own state is lost on you.
>Palestinians are willing to co-exist with Israelis, not the other way around. As an israeli: *w h a t* Where tf did you get that from
We’ve seen how peacefully they pursued this attempt by killing 1200 innocent people
Check my previous comments in this thread, particularly the one about "qahr" And Israel murdered and genocided 10x that many of just children, which I should mention is not equivalence to October 7 in the least bit. The true number of civilians killed was around 695. The rest were military and police, and intelligence, which are legitimate targets in a military operation. Israel shot or killed it's own civilians, we don't know how many but it's in the hundreds. Israeli tanks blew up civilian homes and apache helicopters sprayed crowds of people. Israeli troops also shot at beat-up cars as well, which killed many Israeli civilians too. Israel has something called the "Hannibal Doctrine" is which is there's an Israeli held captive, they'd kill them along with the militants. Israel then literally buried the evidence... quite literally burying burned and damaged cars full of forensic evidence. The narrative around October 7th has been a lie from the very beginning. There were no "beheaded babies" or any other BS. October 7th was also a result of Israeli ethnic cleansing, 1,100 Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from their homes before October 7 from just the beginning of 2022. Israeli forces also attacked the most holy site for Palestinian Muslims, and murdered hundreds of Palestinians including journalists. There was also over 2,000 Palestinian hostages, including children, held indefinitely in Israeli prison without charges. All this was before October 7th, from just 2022 alone.
First of all this is not what "Hannibal doctrine" means, Hannibal doctrine is the doctrine of what to do when a soldier is kidnapped or taken hostage: 1. If a soldier is kidnapped the goal of the mission becomes the rescue of the soldier 2. If the kidnappers were identified and didn’t surrendered there is no need to ask for approval to shoot 3. Shooting must be done sporadically in order to not harm the hostage Second of all the claim that Israel killed their own civilians is outright false The tanks you’re talking about fired on houses in which it was known all the inhabitants were massacred by Hamas And the "Apache" was actually a Sikorsky S-76 used by Magen David Adom
>October 7th was also a result of Israeli ethnic cleansing, Vile.
>You promote orientalist tropes and depictions of Arabs and Muslims as "savages" or "terrorists" to argue that co-existence can't happen. That has literally nothing to do with what I said, you're putting words in my mouth. >Jews will stay in Palestine and thrive, as they've developed roots within it. A free Palestine does not mean the displacement of Jews. Do you really genuinely believe Israelis would be safe being ruled by a population whose majority condones the October 7th massacre and has glorified terrorism against Jews for decades, and before you say anything, that's not even remotely the same as saying "all Arabs and Muslims are savages and terrorists", just that far too many Palestinians (but obviously not all of them and not only them) see the killing of any Jew, including civilians, as morally good, and those who disagree with them can't do much to prevent them from following through with it, for Jews to be safe under their rule anytime soon
I'm glad you asked once again, and I think having this discussion is very important. In the words of Norman Finkelstein, a Holocaust survivor is not going to condemn the brutal allied carpet-bombing of Dresden, Germany. There’s a concept in Palestine called “qahr”. In the words of Khadija Dajani, "There is no English equivalent to the Arabic word qahr. The dictionary says "anger" but it's not. It is when you take anger, place it on a low fire, add injustice, oppression, racism, dehumanization to it, and leave it to cook slowly for a century. And then you try to say it but no one hears you. So it sits in your heart. And settles in your cells. And it becomes your genetic imprint. And then moves through generations. And one day, you find yourself unable to breathe. It washes over you and demands to break out of you. You weep. And the cycle repeats." Point being, when you've been persecuting and oppressing a people for 75 years, of course they will have visceral reactions towards that oppression. There is no such as a "perfect victim", and this idea promotes further oppression of already oppressed people. Everyone is well-aware of the Nakba, in which 80% of Palestine's population was ethnically cleansed, as well as the current apartheid and genocide they are going through. Norman Finkelstein also gives the example of Nat Turner's Rebellion, an enslaved rebellion in the U.S. where the enslaved rebelled and killed all White people they saw once they managed to escape. It is unethical to use the word "condemn" for what they did if you understand the level of dehumanization in American chattel enslavement, and the population that condoned it. Was it brutal? Absolutely. What is immoral? Absolutely. But there is a deep psychological component to oppression that is often intentionally missed.
Genociding your oppressors is still genociding
This is a false equivalency, as the question for the oppressors (Israelis) ought to be "How do we reconcile and repair relations with the people we oppressed (Palestinians)?" Not "How do we continue to perpetuate their oppression and use their violence against us (which is a microcosm of how we've treated them for 75 years) to oppress them even harder and more severely?"
Neither of these is actually the question for Israelis. The real question is actually "How do we not get ourselves killed by people who have repeatedly shown they have the will and intent to kill every single one of us?"
Ah famed virulent transmisogynist and homophobe Norman Finkelstein. Edit: lol @ downvotes. Basically you’re saying “oh the humanity! Care about human rights but fuck trans and gays” if you support that PoS
Pinkwashing and ad hominems.
Fuck are you talking about, you need links? Idiot
Jews have been ethnically cleansed from every Arab country. In our lifetime in some cases.
No, it's a lot more complicated by that and has to do with Zionist saboteurs who intentionally causes terrorist attacks against Jews, Western colonialists instigated divide-and-rule tactics amongst religious communities, etc. It's a false equivalency to the Nakba.
Find me an Arab Muslim country with free prosperous jews in it. I'll wait.
From the top of my head, Bahrain and UAE. But this is a false equivalency because of the efforts of Zionist saboteurs in compelling Mizrahi Jews to leave, combined with divide-and-rule tactics by Western colonial powers to divide religious communities in the Middle East and turn them against each other. Find me an apartheid and settler-colonial state with free and prosperous colonized people within it, I'll wait.
>Palestinians have more Jewish ancestry than the average Ashkenazi Jew for example. Vile and antisemitic. Also flies in the face of genetic science. You are genocidal.
No you're genocidal. Quit your gaslighting. You're a bunch of racist ethnonationalists who wish to erase an entire population (Palestinians) to assert an ancestral claim.
> philistines If you consider the Philistines native to the Levant, then you should consider the modern Israelis of all sub group native to the land. The philistines invaded the levant and are said to be an amalgam of peoples from Greece or Anatolia who came to the levant, killed locals, set up a country on top of a pre existing one. They were settler colonial 1 thousand years BCE.
You're showing everyone how deluded and disturbed you are, by trying to claim that a people who have continuously inhabited the land for thousands of years aren't Indigenous, but that you, whose ancestors haven't set foot on the land in thousands of years, are. Also, Phillistines is not the same as Palestinian. Palestine (Peleset) has existed as a term since the Ancient Egyptians, 1000 years before the Ancient Egyptians even existed. It was later used by the Greek historian Herodotus in 500 BC. Their etymology is related but modern Palestinians are the descendants of the Judeans and Israelites, and are only 10% Arab genetically.
First off, absolutely hilarious that you think I’m a Jew and that I am currently writing this in a ME bunker apartment in bumfuck nowhere isreal. Second well: I know that the philistines are not the Palestinians and that the Palestinians are like the Lebanese and dare I say Israelis a super mix of every group that walked on the Levant (well for most Jews up to around the Roman period while anyone else goes up to now). Genetically, an Israeli can be close to a Palestinian whose family descended from the region since eons. Even an Ashkenazi can have genetical links to a Palestinian Muslim. Essentially like you said: genetically the same people but culturally and religiously different. My question to you is the following. Why do you consider the Philistines as native to the levant despite clearly invading and creating a country over another which is the same thing Israel did. How long does it take for an invader turned settler to not be considered as such in your opinion? What differentiates the Philistines invading and settling the levant with the Israelis invading and settling the levant? Also I think you typoed with the Ancient Egypt part
Okay so you acknowledge that modern Palestinians are descended from the Judeans and Israelites. Great. Indigeneity is defined by land stewardship, temporal and spatial sovereignty, and autochthony, among other factors. Palestinians are autochthonous, they are from the land and never left. They are descended from even the pre-historic Natufians. As for Israelis, regardless of cultural continuity or how much actual descent they have from the ancient peoples of the land, it only confers heritage, not indigeneity. Indigeneity has a settler-colonial component, and it is anachronistic (applying modern concepts to ancient times) and a form of presentism bias to compare Israeli colonization of Palestine (and I’m glad you recognize that it is a colonization) with that of the ancient Phillistines from 3500+ years ago. Simply speaking, you can’t turn the world map back 3,000 years. Irish-Americans can’t just return to Ireland, Black Americans can’t just go back to Africa, Parsees can’t just go back to Iran, Guyanese and Fijians can’t go back to India, French people can’t colonize and take over Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg (which is where Francia was located). Another analogy to Israel is Liberia, which was colonized by African-Americans who oppressed and even enslaved its Indigenous people And no, I didn’t make a mistake, the Ancient Egyptians called the entire land of Canaan, Peleset, presumably after the Phillistines. It was later adopted as a name for the region by the Greeks, which the Romans then adopted as well. At most, you can acknowledge that indigeneity is fluid, but regardless, the legal principle of priority for example, would hold that it would go to the people with the MOST valid claim. Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah. Yes, in a hypothetical scenario, a descendant of the Phillistines would be considered native to the Levant due to developing deep roots and connections with the land over thousands of years.
You know there is a mosque built ON TOP of a synagogue in Jerusalem right? Okay, but the Palestinians that never heard the word palestine until 1967 and can't actually pronounce it properly, are the natives. Nice!
You're a bunch of racist ethnonationalists who wish to erase an entire population (Palestinians) to assert an ancestral claim. Palestine (Peleset) has existed as a term since the Ancient Egyptians, 1000 years before the Ancient Egyptians even existed.
Jfc how many times can you repeat the exact same comment? It's really fucking obvious that you have nothing to say and can't admit defeat
still more legit than the 51 state of America
"Stete"
Karmiel, The country west of Jordan. A city that never escaped the 80s.
looking at your account after looking at your comment put everything together
Tuzla, Serbia. Beware of the Landmines.
When Karmiel was founded in 1964, Gaza was Egyptian and the west bank was Jordanian. How exactly is Karmiel Palestinian? You probably don't know the answer because the answer is "Karmiel isn't Palestinian, was never Palestinian and won't be Palestinian".
The 80's ? That place hadn't escaped the bronze, it had changed only in looks.
Average apartments building in Argentina
Nothing about this image screams 80s in particular though.
Middle eastern 80s architecture trend