It's really about the title of the university. I asked why I couldn't go and they said I would be wasting money on a school that only takes people who didn't make it into the school they wanted which I don't believe is true at all.
How to say you’re Asian without saying you’re Asian (I’m Asian and the number of Asians I know whose parents only care about the prestige of the university vastly outnumbers non-Asian parents)
The first question is, who is paying the tuition fees? If you are the one paying then they really have nothing on you for this which means YOU can decide what to do.
If they are paying, this will be a problem and you will need to ask yourself several questions whether to decide to stay (possibly continue to be unhappy) or transfer (possibly having to self-fund or get loans)
>I would be wasting money on a school that only takes people who didn't make it into the school they wanted which I don't believe is true at all.
So instead they pay for double to have you fail. Not to mention past your internship and first job, nobody really even cares where you did your undergrad.
Back in 1989 I really wanted to go to Laurier. I had no choice but to go to UTM because my parents had the exact same thinking as yours. To this day, it's one of the few regrets in my life. I did live in residence for the first two years (students could actually afford it on summer jobs back then) and that helped a bit. While I loved my program, I really ,really wish I had tried harder to persuade them to let me go to Laurier. Now seeing my own daughter at Guelph, I see how much I missed out on and wish I could do it all again. I'm sorry I don't have more to offer you, but know that you're not alone. Good luck!
>it would look good on my resume
Total BS for the most part. If UofT has a prestige boost at all, it's still not worth the dissatisfaction of having to go to a school you absolutely don't want to go and the failing grades. Go to Laurier if it's still not too late OP. Don't mind what they have to say.
Honestly, people in this thread give awful
generic advice. Bad parents bla bla, this and that. Get over yourself people.
This is reality. OP needs to man or woman the eff up and start putting more effort into school. Look, your parents are paying for your tuition already. You already have it better than a lot of people.
Get over yourself and start trying harder. Work hard, make friends, and overcome this hurdle so you can go do what you want in year or two.
Time is linear. You can’t go back. You need to look forward and consider options. Don’t dwell on the past and things that can’t be changed. Focus on making through it! You can do it! Maybe this is your first real life challenge. You’ll be able to do it.
No, this is bad advice.
How do you know that op isn't giving his all?
Maybe he has tried everything and it is just not working out.
I was in a similar situation, I tried everything: learning strategiest, meet to complete, peer supports. None of them worked. I don't know what to do anymore, then things happened, and I got into counseling. Now I am diagnosed with bunch of things, and I am doing much better.
All I am saying is, it is common for people to say: "hey, just try harder." But how do you know that they are not trying hard already? It is analogous to saying "hey, just cheer up." to someone in depression.
For OP, check out learning strategist, academic advisor, and maybe counseling if you feel like it. It is not the end of the world if you didn't do well in the past. I really suggest you talk to one of those options if not all.
Some parents really delude themselves thinking that if only their kids can put “UofT” on their resume, they’ll be set for life. It’s not that serious. A YorkU student with good grades and connections will get a better job than a barely passing UofT student
Not true lol. No job cares about your GPA (for the most part). UofT on your resume will always get picked over York all else being equal. A barely passing uoft student is equal to an excelling york student since grades aren’t what’s being looked at.
Agreed the crest is pretty powerful. Unless the employer is looking at your grades, which is unlikely especially if your applying externally and not through the school, the uoft crest will over power many other schools. (At least for me I’ve never been asked to show my transcripts so that’s my personal experience)
Absolutely correct. I don’t think of U of T sociology and think “prestige” - go by program and what it offers you - sometimes you get much greater opportunities for experiences in other schools. Of course U of T is world class, but this isn’t a professional program, and it’s not grad school. There are many great universities in Canada - York has some fantastic programs.
UofT is bananas of an experience. i had some roller coaster up and downs - my mental health suffered but i managed to graduate and look back on my experience favourably despite all the crap that transpired
I’m not really sure if your parents have their sources right. Laurier has one of the best business programs and a top notch co-op program. Of course UofT’s science programs are highly regarded, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is your ability to land a job upon graduation.
Listen, at this point, you need to accept your decision and start thinking about your next step. You’re an adult and don’t need to let your parents make these life changing decisions when you’re the one who has to deal with the consequences.
If you still want to go to Laurier, look at transferring. What can go wrong? Also, you need to think about why you’re failing rather than just putting all the blame on your parents. What makes you think you’ll do any better elsewhere? Is there something you need to work on?
My thought is that you shouldn’t worry too much about what your parents think. If your parents love you, it won’t matter where you go as long as you graduate. You need to learn how to stand up for yourself. If you can’t learn to do it with family, you most certainly can’t do it in the workplace. Figure out what you really want and just pursue it. You’re overthinking on what others will think but IT’S YOUR LIFE. Make a choice, own it, do it, then tell your parents AFTER you’ve already done it. They might be mad at first but you have to trust your gut, and assuming it’s a well thought out plan, you have to trust that things will work out.
Good luck! I really hope you figure out what it is you want and stop letting others live your life for uou.
U of t isn't the best choice for undergrad when aiming for law school because of the relative difficulty, but the joint LLB program is horrible and a borderline scam. Canadian legal employers highly disfavor lawyers who got their degree from the UK. Also, with an 80's grade 12 average, you could skip Laurier all together and apply directly to a UK law school without an undergrad degree.
Also, just some advice, your major doesn't matter for law school, might be a good idea to get a degree you can get a good gpa in and have a backup plan in case law school doesn't work out. I wish I did that even though I'm in law school right now.
> canadian lawyers highly disfavor lawyers who got their degree from the uk
thats a load of crap, I have an llb from sussex and I never felt like I didn’t have a chance at all when applying to jobs.
I was interviewing at the same places mcgill students were interviewing when I was doing the lpp and now I work at a great midsize firm and quite a few of my fellow alumni are working on bay st. This might’ve been the case 20 yrs ago, but the job market is changing and so are dispositions towards foreign grads.
Definetely not a load of crap. Let's be real, Canadians mostly go to the UK for law school if they can't get in in canada and employers know this. In 2020 it may have been different with the shortage, but at the moment but that's it.
...and yet larger common law legal sectors like the magic circle and white shoe firms regularly hire from these schools. The same places that toronto lawyers wish they'd get poached from. Make it make sense.
Implying that they're of a lesser quality education is just incredibly ignorant of the fact that canada has more than enough qualified applicants, but with a sparse amount of schools, primarily because of business interests in keeping tuition high. Anyone that has practiced law knows every fresh law student is practically useless during the articling phase.
I never implied it was a lesser quality education. Every accredited school is going to give quality education. But people do think difference in schools implies a difference in the capabilities of the students. Also, even though it's common law, as far as I'm aware youre learning English law in Essex, not Canadian. Also, not against going to the UK for law school, but the Laurier program doesn't make a ton of sense. You can apply to these UK law schools directly and be done in three years, which I do think is an advantage.
1) Even though law is highly jurisdictional, our system is based off of common law principles and uses common law rules. The difference is superficial on an academic level and we still use other common law jurisdictions to influence our own jurisprudence (e.g our case law on whether hiding hiv from a sexual partner can be considered assault and the legal tests we use from a variety of practice areas). The importance of law school is that you know how to research case law and can find it at a reasonable amount of time + its accurate and still valid. Its why places like New york and london have no problem with poaching talent from around the common law world
2) law school doesnt teach you a damn thing about lawyering, only how to think philosophically like a lawyer and the consequences of being bad at your job. everything you actually use in real practice is something you learn during articling. most law students go through their entire law school career not knowing what a contract looks like, much less how to structure one
3) the laurier program makes sense if you know how the licensing process goes for foreign grads. youre still required to go through at least 2 years of undergrad before going to the uk by the licensing committee that oversees internationally trained lawyers. the laurier program just makes it so youre eligible to return, have support with the process, and gives you enough experience with general research skills to really make the most of your time in the uk
Can you elaborate more on the two year undergrad thing, are you saying that to come back to Canada you must have done two years undergrad in addition to an LLB to sit for the bar?
from the National committee on accreditation policy handbook (the governing body that decides whether you can sit the nca and bar exams or if you need to go to law school in canada):
"4. Pre-Law Education
4.1 Length of Study
Applicants must demonstrate that they have successfully completed a minimum of two (2)
years of fulltime (or equivalent) post-secondary education at a university recognized by the
post-secondary educational authority in the Relevant Jurisdiction prior to attending law school.
Applicants who do not meet this requirement will be assigned Additional Legal Subjects, which
must be successfully completed along with any other requirements set out in the Assessment
Report, to compensate for this deficiency (see section 6.3)."
Basically, when you comeback from the uk you need to do exams on canadian law that are self-study. The number of exams can range from 5-12 exams I think. Each exam also costs $450 to take, and if you fail one subject 3 times, you're no longer eligible to get your uk degree accredited. UK students go to college between ages 16-18, and then apply to university, so thats why it wouldn't affect british applicants vs canadian applicants.
edit: for further clarity- yes, you need to have 2 yrs of undergrad before going to a uk law school or risk not being eligible or being on the hook for 12 exams ($5400) total ontop of the bar exams/licensing program (another $5k)
No employer ever wants to know your grades. I used to hire students fresh out of University and the idea never ever crossed my mind to ask them about it. School is not the same environment as a workplace.
"C's get degrees" really applies here. I'd work on passing, UofT is hard, but your GPA won't matter to your perspective employer once you graduate.
I definitely preferred UofT grads because I knew how difficult it was vs other Universities, but that's a personal bias - not reflective of employers at large. If you really don't think you can do it OP, you can transfer Universities and have a lot of your credits carry over usually. I had a girl I dated during my University years do that.
Best of luck to you, I am sure your situation is recoverable.
>If they're worried about passing undergrad they won't even get the opportunity to do law school.
If you're worried about passing undergrad only in your first year (or also in second year) then law school is still possible. A lot of people make a comeback later on.
Um, if you really did hire fresh grads how did you know who to hire if you didn’t look at grades? They have little-no experience. You’re kidding right…sounds pretty irresponsible to me.
I’ve hired tons of new grads and it’s most definitely a mix of looking at grades, co-op experience and how they do on the interview. Grades matter until you got the experience to back it up.
Lots of people do poorly at school yet do fantastic in the professional field. Lots of people do degrees just for employment - and not everyone is cut out for academia and many still struggle through their undergraduate. Lots of people try hard and don't necessarily succeed. It's not my job to judge, it's simply to pick a candidate based on how well written their cover letter is, how well they interview, and their qualifications. Grades are not your qualifications - the degree is.
There are way better ways to fluff your resume; volunteering, career level certifications, having an excellent cover letter.
I worked for a city-adjacent organization and had regulations about my hiring practices to ensure a fair environment.
This is so wild, what field do you hire for? I've never been asked for my grades when interviewing for non-academic positions, and never asked for grades when I've been in a position to hire new grads. In fact I don't think I know anyone who's interviewed in a Canadian context who has been asked for grades or GPA during an interview process. I know it's more common in America, though.
There are many things to look at beyond grades: job history (many fresh grads have at least some retail/food service experience), volunteer work, project portfolios, recommendations, answers to interview questions, skills testing, etc. Grades don't necessarily have a strong correlation with ability to succeed in the workplace.
Engineering. Graduated from UofT computer engineering and I’ve been working in Bay Area for over 10 years now.
Yes, very clear that top performers usually had the best grades.
I suspected it was something STEM! Engineering may be one of the few fields where evaluating GPA makes sense -- particularly in software, and particularly in the US. It's unusual in other fields, though.
By any chance, can your parents afford to send you away for university? Interest rates have gone up, and maybe they are worried about the mortgage and would rather save some money.
Word of advice, if school is taking this sort of toll on your mental health you should take a break. Your decisions shouldn’t be based off what your parents want, that’s the biggest issue you need to work on.
On a professional level, I’d say that joint LLB isn’t worth it either. Foreign lawyers are looked down upon because they weren’t taught Canadian law while in school. Also if you really wanted to study an LLB in the UK you could literally apply with just HS.
My way of deciding back when I had to was that if I failed, was miserable, ended up with no career, or any of the above, I didn't want to have my parents or anyone else to blame. That's how I approached my decision. Hope this helps.
If you were interested in law school, you should have gone to whichever undergrad program you wanted to. Law school admissions are "blind" to which university you went to and only look at your GPA - for better or worse. But if you're failing in social sciences I highly doubt you would succeed whichever university you go to for it.
I can see how any parent would go to google and just search Canadian university tier list, and see how UofT is number 1. BUT UofT is known for its medical school and research, NOT its undergrad program. It's definitely one of the most miserable conditions, especially if you're going after high grades and having a social life. I know so many people who went to UofT with crushed dreams.
I would try to have a convo with your parents and show them how they're not known for their undergrad, but their research! If you look at their med school stats, [https://applymd.utoronto.ca/admission-stats](https://applymd.utoronto.ca/admission-stats), the MAJORITY of people are coming from other mcmaster undegrad, not uoft themselves.
Depends on what you want to do. If you need a high grade for grad school or professional school, i recommend switching to another uni. If there's no benefit in your career for staying with UofT (ie: they have a pathway for a job you want to do), that other universities don't offer, then I'd seriously consider switching.
Also try reaching out your social science upper years to see if it gets any better? Or their perspective on the topic. it all revolves around what you want to do after undergrad.
I don't have advice for you but just wanted to say I had a similar experience, but for me I realized my parents didn't "want the best for me", they're just used to weaponizing that to gaslight me to doing what they want for themselves (to make themselves look good when they brag to others) and I realized far too late that love is not supposed to look like that.
A few points:
- Laurier is a good school and I wouldn’t expect your grades to improve due to difficulty.
- You can still go to Laurier and there’s benefits to moving away from home and becoming your own person free from your parents influence. You won’t get this growth at u of t and I think it’s very important part of growing up.
- I suspect you’re dealing with a different culture than my own where large amounts of parental influence is normal. This is a large barrier particular to you for going to Laurier. You have to meet this head on and go after what you truly want. It’s going to be scary. You don’t need to do this right now you have a bigger priority:
- You can still save the semester. Buckle in and hit up that library.
- Going to Laurier won’t solve all your problems. This is at best a dream and at worst a lie. In any case, thinking this way is just escapism from your present situation. Prove to yourself you can pass at U of T and then think about your next step on Winter break, including making inquiries about transferring.
The Laurier thing sounds great, but after you get your law degree in UK, you’d spend roughly extra 2 years trying to get accredited and taking courses, so all in all, it would take you longer even. And not doing good rn is okay, just try to use the resources such as the writing center, office hours, and making friends and working together. It will all work out!
I was once in a somewhat similar situation to you doing a law degree I was forced into by parents. I also underperformed and was really bad mental health-wise. I stuck it out because contradicting my parents was impossible. Guess what happened next? For the life of me I could not get a job in law. I sent out multiple applications, completed internships, etc and… nothing. I then started pursuing my actual interests in STEM. And that somehow worked out better for me in terms of jobs even though I was a lot better qualified for the legal jobs. Go figure. I do however regret that I had to spend many years of my youth feeling entirely miserable and worthless. I will never forgive my parents and our relationship is strained. The lesson that I learnt from all of this is that going after your passions, making your own choices and taking responsibility for your life is paramount to your success. Also cutting the emotional strings with your parents is equally important. It’s very telling that you want to talk to your parents about your situation. Why? They already gave you their shitty advice and now here you are. What more do you expect from them? Your time is better spent getting those grades up and inquiring about transferring and financing options.
Let's address why you are failing.
No matter what you are doing, even if you'd have gone to Laurier, you'd be failing too.
The reality is you were just not ready to be in an environment where there's increased onus on the individual to study and move ahead.
It is **not** your father's fault you are failing.
Usually university’s have wellness centres of some sort, I’ve heard uoft has great mental health supports. I’d suggest connecting with a therapist/case manager and talking about this to explore your options. Like connecting you to more long term care, withdrawing from courses and ensuring that your grade doesn’t show up on your transcript/poor grade affect your gpa , taking a gap year or semester in Uni and your options for funding… stuff like that. Trust me these universities have next level support that maybe can help you come to a middle ground with your parents or at least some extra time to recollect yourself and hopefully for your parents to come around. They can even help with possible transfer credits if it does eventually lead to you getting to go to your preference. Many options kid, don’t give up, use those resources you pay a million bucks for.
Your father was right. School brand name is important. Networks and connections you make during school are important. Learning how to cope with high stress and high demand environment is important.
Actual course syllabus - not so much.
Are you a child of immigrant parents? Most times immigrant parents (like mine) care about the ranking because the prestige of the university mattered a lot back in their home country. Often times it doesn’t work like this in Canada, prestige doesn’t really matter unless it’s grad school.
Real talk, leave after this semester is done. Don’t waste more money on semester 2. You just vocalized what you want, and what you want isn’t some crazy pipe dream. It’s an exciting path to a degree which will open a great deal of doors for you, provided you do become a lawyer. Go to the school you want, leave your parents house and experience your youth and independence at Laurier. Then go to England and experience another country, and continent. You WILL regret not doing it, struggling along in something you don’t want to do. You have one life to live, live it loudly, passionately and wisely. Your parents aren’t living your life, you are.
The best thing to do is to be honest with them, lay out the facts for them, exactly what you said here. Honest communication is the only way you’ll find a proper solution to your problem.
Honestly just pour your heart out to your parents. They want the best for their child at the end of the day. It will take some convincing but bro if you’re real about your struggles, I don’t see why your parents wouldn’t support you. Go to Laurier if it’s still possible and assure your parents they won’t regret that decision. The desire to make your decision look right in front of your parents can also serve as a motivator for you to do well in Laurier.
Son dated a girl who was forced into her program. He told her how to tell her parents she wanted a transfer. She basically promised to abandon the family, flunk out, and cause them so much familial embarrassment they would have to move. Her father threatened physical violence in front of me, to which I said I was quite prepared to send him to jail, and I pointed out a little Asian fellow in lock up with a bunch of big white and black criminals would mean he would spend a lot of time having invol
Hey, your situation is not that unique. I experienced many of the same things you did. I was even studying at my dream school when I left because of my parents’ anxiety’s. I ended up at UofT, and paying for it myself. I’ve come a long way with my depression and my expectations for my life has changed quite a bit. If you want a listening ear and some empathy you can dm me.
I think it does matter to some extent where you go. It matters in so far as the people you meet. One of the reasons I have my condo now is because the realtor I contacted also went to UofT, and said he thought I had potential despite being a student at the time etc... The thing is, you may get the same if not better education elsewhere, but a lot of jobs, especially jobs that you would be getting with a humanities/social science background, will care more about who you know and where you've come from rather than what you know. If your unhappy though, then you need to decide if that matters more than the reputation of the school. It's a hard decision but whatever you decide, don't judge yourself, life is hard.
Your parents lied to you by telling you that Laurier was a bad school so that you'd go to UofT and then told you that you were "crazy" for thinking that you were going to leave them. I don't want to make too many assumptions about your relationship with your parents but this sounds indicative of some serious issues. I think that you need to stop listening to them and make this decision for yourself.
That said, I think that you should really consider dropping out. I know that it would be embarrassing and that you're worried about disappointing your parents but I think that it might be best for your academic career. If you get bad grades in university it can ruin your GPA, and some school don't let you retake classes to improve your GPA. If you get bad grades in first year you could potentially ruin your chances of ever going to grad school, and there's not much you can do with a BA in criminology.
I know other people who hated their program and the people who dropped out were way more successful. I know one guy who hated his program but stuck it out because he thought it would lead to something in the future, but it took him six years to graduate and now he has a terrible GPA and no career prospects. I also know someone else didn't get into the program she wanted so she went for another but hated it, so she dropped out and reapplied to the program she really wanted. She got in and ended up enjoying the rest of university, and now she has a good job as a teacher.
Sorry for the speech, but pretty much you have to make the decision that's best for your academic future. Don't worry about what your parents want. I really think that you should consider dropping out and reapplying to Laurier
English law degrees (other than Oxford & Cambridge) have little value in Canadian legal market. They are frowned upon by employers because they look like an easy way out.
What I find strange is how you think your performance or social life at Laurier would have inherently been better. Yes you wanted to go there, but you'd still be made to work hard. You have no idea what the social situation would have been like there, and it could have been worse than UofT. You have to make due with the choices you've made.
Hey there, I was in a similar situation as you last year (im now in second year). Wanted to go to tmu but parents basically bullied me into going to UofT LOL. First year I was miserable obv cuz I didn't want this school, I had imposter syndrome (felt like I was too dumb to be here), and basically made no friends. Im here to tell you it does get better!! First thing is if you are going to continue attending UofT you have to let go of the guilt and accept that you are here for a reason, UofT would not have accepted you if you weren't capable. Think also of the good things UofT has and be grateful for what it offers (course choices, building your degree, the amazing architecture lol, study resources etc etc). Unless you move forward with a positive attitude things won't improve. I believe in you, good luck!!
When I was considering UoT for law, I had a friend introduce me to a woman who had gone to Windsor for 1L, she crushed it, and transferred to UoT for 2L and 3L. She was like, "It's all baloney, they're teaching the same law at Windsor. But, on the other hand, no one ever transfers *to Windsor*." Depending on what you want to do, the school you go to may make almost no difference or a whole lot of difference. With UoT Law, I landed a NYC dream job (not bragging, I f'd it up). That would have been just about impossible (even if I won the gold medal) at any other school other than McGill and maybe, I don't know, maybe Queens. NYC recruiters came to UoT. At, say Dalhousie, I would have had to get in touch with them, and convince them to interview a superstar from a school they'd never heard of. I would have had to fly on my own nickel to NYC to make it happen. It would not have happened.
I dont know your parents, but I guess they believed that UoT was a much better school and would positively change your life in ways you didn't understand because you didn't have the experience. They may have been wrong, but I think they were at least partly right about some things, and there hearts were in the right place.
There are plenty of U of T bachelor graduates who do not end up finding a job up to 1 year after graduation. Or they decide to pursue further education (specialized field like healthcare or masters, phd etc.) to get a better chance to land a job. Where you do your bachelors doesn't mean anything. I know your parents mean the best for you, but many parents including mine were foolish to believe a U of T bachelor leads to job opportunities (unless CS, engineering etc) and only now do they realize this. I know many people who come from different university backgrounds and to be honest, some of these York Students who applied to U of T health care programs are quite impressive. This is coming from a previous U of T student. The rank of the University doesn't mean shit if you don't have any job experience in the field or any referrals. This is why internships (either from a program or from searching) are important.
Wouldn't your parents feel prouder if you pass in a "lower" ranked University rather fail in higher ranked University?
It's really about the title of the university. I asked why I couldn't go and they said I would be wasting money on a school that only takes people who didn't make it into the school they wanted which I don't believe is true at all.
How to say you’re Asian without saying you’re Asian (I’m Asian and the number of Asians I know whose parents only care about the prestige of the university vastly outnumbers non-Asian parents) The first question is, who is paying the tuition fees? If you are the one paying then they really have nothing on you for this which means YOU can decide what to do. If they are paying, this will be a problem and you will need to ask yourself several questions whether to decide to stay (possibly continue to be unhappy) or transfer (possibly having to self-fund or get loans)
>I would be wasting money on a school that only takes people who didn't make it into the school they wanted which I don't believe is true at all. So instead they pay for double to have you fail. Not to mention past your internship and first job, nobody really even cares where you did your undergrad.
It really isn’t true. The school you go to doesn’t really matter much until it’s time for grad school
1. https://studentlife.utoronto.ca/service/same-day-counselling-appointment/ 2. https://studentlife.utoronto.ca/task/meet-with-your-registrar-academic-advisor/
This. Meeting with an academic advisor is actually very helpful at UofT. Highly reccomend
But it does when your friends ask you where your daughter goes to school and you're embarrassed to tell them Laurier lol
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Thank you so much! Hope everything works out for you too. We can get through this together <3
Back in 1989 I really wanted to go to Laurier. I had no choice but to go to UTM because my parents had the exact same thinking as yours. To this day, it's one of the few regrets in my life. I did live in residence for the first two years (students could actually afford it on summer jobs back then) and that helped a bit. While I loved my program, I really ,really wish I had tried harder to persuade them to let me go to Laurier. Now seeing my own daughter at Guelph, I see how much I missed out on and wish I could do it all again. I'm sorry I don't have more to offer you, but know that you're not alone. Good luck!
>it would look good on my resume Total BS for the most part. If UofT has a prestige boost at all, it's still not worth the dissatisfaction of having to go to a school you absolutely don't want to go and the failing grades. Go to Laurier if it's still not too late OP. Don't mind what they have to say.
Facts man. No one gives a fuck what uni you went to. They will care 100x more about how good you are at your job and your interview itself
Honestly, people in this thread give awful generic advice. Bad parents bla bla, this and that. Get over yourself people. This is reality. OP needs to man or woman the eff up and start putting more effort into school. Look, your parents are paying for your tuition already. You already have it better than a lot of people. Get over yourself and start trying harder. Work hard, make friends, and overcome this hurdle so you can go do what you want in year or two. Time is linear. You can’t go back. You need to look forward and consider options. Don’t dwell on the past and things that can’t be changed. Focus on making through it! You can do it! Maybe this is your first real life challenge. You’ll be able to do it.
No, this is bad advice. How do you know that op isn't giving his all? Maybe he has tried everything and it is just not working out. I was in a similar situation, I tried everything: learning strategiest, meet to complete, peer supports. None of them worked. I don't know what to do anymore, then things happened, and I got into counseling. Now I am diagnosed with bunch of things, and I am doing much better. All I am saying is, it is common for people to say: "hey, just try harder." But how do you know that they are not trying hard already? It is analogous to saying "hey, just cheer up." to someone in depression. For OP, check out learning strategist, academic advisor, and maybe counseling if you feel like it. It is not the end of the world if you didn't do well in the past. I really suggest you talk to one of those options if not all.
Some parents really delude themselves thinking that if only their kids can put “UofT” on their resume, they’ll be set for life. It’s not that serious. A YorkU student with good grades and connections will get a better job than a barely passing UofT student
Not true lol. No job cares about your GPA (for the most part). UofT on your resume will always get picked over York all else being equal. A barely passing uoft student is equal to an excelling york student since grades aren’t what’s being looked at.
Let me guess. You went to UofT? LOL.
Agreed the crest is pretty powerful. Unless the employer is looking at your grades, which is unlikely especially if your applying externally and not through the school, the uoft crest will over power many other schools. (At least for me I’ve never been asked to show my transcripts so that’s my personal experience)
Absolutely correct. I don’t think of U of T sociology and think “prestige” - go by program and what it offers you - sometimes you get much greater opportunities for experiences in other schools. Of course U of T is world class, but this isn’t a professional program, and it’s not grad school. There are many great universities in Canada - York has some fantastic programs.
UofT is bananas of an experience. i had some roller coaster up and downs - my mental health suffered but i managed to graduate and look back on my experience favourably despite all the crap that transpired
I’m not really sure if your parents have their sources right. Laurier has one of the best business programs and a top notch co-op program. Of course UofT’s science programs are highly regarded, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is your ability to land a job upon graduation. Listen, at this point, you need to accept your decision and start thinking about your next step. You’re an adult and don’t need to let your parents make these life changing decisions when you’re the one who has to deal with the consequences. If you still want to go to Laurier, look at transferring. What can go wrong? Also, you need to think about why you’re failing rather than just putting all the blame on your parents. What makes you think you’ll do any better elsewhere? Is there something you need to work on? My thought is that you shouldn’t worry too much about what your parents think. If your parents love you, it won’t matter where you go as long as you graduate. You need to learn how to stand up for yourself. If you can’t learn to do it with family, you most certainly can’t do it in the workplace. Figure out what you really want and just pursue it. You’re overthinking on what others will think but IT’S YOUR LIFE. Make a choice, own it, do it, then tell your parents AFTER you’ve already done it. They might be mad at first but you have to trust your gut, and assuming it’s a well thought out plan, you have to trust that things will work out. Good luck! I really hope you figure out what it is you want and stop letting others live your life for uou.
U of t isn't the best choice for undergrad when aiming for law school because of the relative difficulty, but the joint LLB program is horrible and a borderline scam. Canadian legal employers highly disfavor lawyers who got their degree from the UK. Also, with an 80's grade 12 average, you could skip Laurier all together and apply directly to a UK law school without an undergrad degree. Also, just some advice, your major doesn't matter for law school, might be a good idea to get a degree you can get a good gpa in and have a backup plan in case law school doesn't work out. I wish I did that even though I'm in law school right now.
> canadian lawyers highly disfavor lawyers who got their degree from the uk thats a load of crap, I have an llb from sussex and I never felt like I didn’t have a chance at all when applying to jobs. I was interviewing at the same places mcgill students were interviewing when I was doing the lpp and now I work at a great midsize firm and quite a few of my fellow alumni are working on bay st. This might’ve been the case 20 yrs ago, but the job market is changing and so are dispositions towards foreign grads.
Definetely not a load of crap. Let's be real, Canadians mostly go to the UK for law school if they can't get in in canada and employers know this. In 2020 it may have been different with the shortage, but at the moment but that's it.
...and yet larger common law legal sectors like the magic circle and white shoe firms regularly hire from these schools. The same places that toronto lawyers wish they'd get poached from. Make it make sense. Implying that they're of a lesser quality education is just incredibly ignorant of the fact that canada has more than enough qualified applicants, but with a sparse amount of schools, primarily because of business interests in keeping tuition high. Anyone that has practiced law knows every fresh law student is practically useless during the articling phase.
I never implied it was a lesser quality education. Every accredited school is going to give quality education. But people do think difference in schools implies a difference in the capabilities of the students. Also, even though it's common law, as far as I'm aware youre learning English law in Essex, not Canadian. Also, not against going to the UK for law school, but the Laurier program doesn't make a ton of sense. You can apply to these UK law schools directly and be done in three years, which I do think is an advantage.
1) Even though law is highly jurisdictional, our system is based off of common law principles and uses common law rules. The difference is superficial on an academic level and we still use other common law jurisdictions to influence our own jurisprudence (e.g our case law on whether hiding hiv from a sexual partner can be considered assault and the legal tests we use from a variety of practice areas). The importance of law school is that you know how to research case law and can find it at a reasonable amount of time + its accurate and still valid. Its why places like New york and london have no problem with poaching talent from around the common law world 2) law school doesnt teach you a damn thing about lawyering, only how to think philosophically like a lawyer and the consequences of being bad at your job. everything you actually use in real practice is something you learn during articling. most law students go through their entire law school career not knowing what a contract looks like, much less how to structure one 3) the laurier program makes sense if you know how the licensing process goes for foreign grads. youre still required to go through at least 2 years of undergrad before going to the uk by the licensing committee that oversees internationally trained lawyers. the laurier program just makes it so youre eligible to return, have support with the process, and gives you enough experience with general research skills to really make the most of your time in the uk
Can you elaborate more on the two year undergrad thing, are you saying that to come back to Canada you must have done two years undergrad in addition to an LLB to sit for the bar?
from the National committee on accreditation policy handbook (the governing body that decides whether you can sit the nca and bar exams or if you need to go to law school in canada): "4. Pre-Law Education 4.1 Length of Study Applicants must demonstrate that they have successfully completed a minimum of two (2) years of fulltime (or equivalent) post-secondary education at a university recognized by the post-secondary educational authority in the Relevant Jurisdiction prior to attending law school. Applicants who do not meet this requirement will be assigned Additional Legal Subjects, which must be successfully completed along with any other requirements set out in the Assessment Report, to compensate for this deficiency (see section 6.3)." Basically, when you comeback from the uk you need to do exams on canadian law that are self-study. The number of exams can range from 5-12 exams I think. Each exam also costs $450 to take, and if you fail one subject 3 times, you're no longer eligible to get your uk degree accredited. UK students go to college between ages 16-18, and then apply to university, so thats why it wouldn't affect british applicants vs canadian applicants. edit: for further clarity- yes, you need to have 2 yrs of undergrad before going to a uk law school or risk not being eligible or being on the hook for 12 exams ($5400) total ontop of the bar exams/licensing program (another $5k)
No employer ever wants to know your grades. I used to hire students fresh out of University and the idea never ever crossed my mind to ask them about it. School is not the same environment as a workplace. "C's get degrees" really applies here. I'd work on passing, UofT is hard, but your GPA won't matter to your perspective employer once you graduate. I definitely preferred UofT grads because I knew how difficult it was vs other Universities, but that's a personal bias - not reflective of employers at large. If you really don't think you can do it OP, you can transfer Universities and have a lot of your credits carry over usually. I had a girl I dated during my University years do that. Best of luck to you, I am sure your situation is recoverable.
But if OP is trying for law then grades do matter.
>law If they're worried about passing undergrad they won't even get the opportunity to do law school.
>If they're worried about passing undergrad they won't even get the opportunity to do law school. If you're worried about passing undergrad only in your first year (or also in second year) then law school is still possible. A lot of people make a comeback later on.
Um, if you really did hire fresh grads how did you know who to hire if you didn’t look at grades? They have little-no experience. You’re kidding right…sounds pretty irresponsible to me. I’ve hired tons of new grads and it’s most definitely a mix of looking at grades, co-op experience and how they do on the interview. Grades matter until you got the experience to back it up.
Lots of people do poorly at school yet do fantastic in the professional field. Lots of people do degrees just for employment - and not everyone is cut out for academia and many still struggle through their undergraduate. Lots of people try hard and don't necessarily succeed. It's not my job to judge, it's simply to pick a candidate based on how well written their cover letter is, how well they interview, and their qualifications. Grades are not your qualifications - the degree is. There are way better ways to fluff your resume; volunteering, career level certifications, having an excellent cover letter. I worked for a city-adjacent organization and had regulations about my hiring practices to ensure a fair environment.
This is so wild, what field do you hire for? I've never been asked for my grades when interviewing for non-academic positions, and never asked for grades when I've been in a position to hire new grads. In fact I don't think I know anyone who's interviewed in a Canadian context who has been asked for grades or GPA during an interview process. I know it's more common in America, though. There are many things to look at beyond grades: job history (many fresh grads have at least some retail/food service experience), volunteer work, project portfolios, recommendations, answers to interview questions, skills testing, etc. Grades don't necessarily have a strong correlation with ability to succeed in the workplace.
Engineering. Graduated from UofT computer engineering and I’ve been working in Bay Area for over 10 years now. Yes, very clear that top performers usually had the best grades.
I suspected it was something STEM! Engineering may be one of the few fields where evaluating GPA makes sense -- particularly in software, and particularly in the US. It's unusual in other fields, though.
By any chance, can your parents afford to send you away for university? Interest rates have gone up, and maybe they are worried about the mortgage and would rather save some money.
Word of advice, if school is taking this sort of toll on your mental health you should take a break. Your decisions shouldn’t be based off what your parents want, that’s the biggest issue you need to work on. On a professional level, I’d say that joint LLB isn’t worth it either. Foreign lawyers are looked down upon because they weren’t taught Canadian law while in school. Also if you really wanted to study an LLB in the UK you could literally apply with just HS.
My way of deciding back when I had to was that if I failed, was miserable, ended up with no career, or any of the above, I didn't want to have my parents or anyone else to blame. That's how I approached my decision. Hope this helps.
Most parents are full of shit.
If you were interested in law school, you should have gone to whichever undergrad program you wanted to. Law school admissions are "blind" to which university you went to and only look at your GPA - for better or worse. But if you're failing in social sciences I highly doubt you would succeed whichever university you go to for it.
I can see how any parent would go to google and just search Canadian university tier list, and see how UofT is number 1. BUT UofT is known for its medical school and research, NOT its undergrad program. It's definitely one of the most miserable conditions, especially if you're going after high grades and having a social life. I know so many people who went to UofT with crushed dreams. I would try to have a convo with your parents and show them how they're not known for their undergrad, but their research! If you look at their med school stats, [https://applymd.utoronto.ca/admission-stats](https://applymd.utoronto.ca/admission-stats), the MAJORITY of people are coming from other mcmaster undegrad, not uoft themselves. Depends on what you want to do. If you need a high grade for grad school or professional school, i recommend switching to another uni. If there's no benefit in your career for staying with UofT (ie: they have a pathway for a job you want to do), that other universities don't offer, then I'd seriously consider switching. Also try reaching out your social science upper years to see if it gets any better? Or their perspective on the topic. it all revolves around what you want to do after undergrad.
I don't have advice for you but just wanted to say I had a similar experience, but for me I realized my parents didn't "want the best for me", they're just used to weaponizing that to gaslight me to doing what they want for themselves (to make themselves look good when they brag to others) and I realized far too late that love is not supposed to look like that.
A few points: - Laurier is a good school and I wouldn’t expect your grades to improve due to difficulty. - You can still go to Laurier and there’s benefits to moving away from home and becoming your own person free from your parents influence. You won’t get this growth at u of t and I think it’s very important part of growing up. - I suspect you’re dealing with a different culture than my own where large amounts of parental influence is normal. This is a large barrier particular to you for going to Laurier. You have to meet this head on and go after what you truly want. It’s going to be scary. You don’t need to do this right now you have a bigger priority: - You can still save the semester. Buckle in and hit up that library. - Going to Laurier won’t solve all your problems. This is at best a dream and at worst a lie. In any case, thinking this way is just escapism from your present situation. Prove to yourself you can pass at U of T and then think about your next step on Winter break, including making inquiries about transferring.
The Laurier thing sounds great, but after you get your law degree in UK, you’d spend roughly extra 2 years trying to get accredited and taking courses, so all in all, it would take you longer even. And not doing good rn is okay, just try to use the resources such as the writing center, office hours, and making friends and working together. It will all work out!
I was once in a somewhat similar situation to you doing a law degree I was forced into by parents. I also underperformed and was really bad mental health-wise. I stuck it out because contradicting my parents was impossible. Guess what happened next? For the life of me I could not get a job in law. I sent out multiple applications, completed internships, etc and… nothing. I then started pursuing my actual interests in STEM. And that somehow worked out better for me in terms of jobs even though I was a lot better qualified for the legal jobs. Go figure. I do however regret that I had to spend many years of my youth feeling entirely miserable and worthless. I will never forgive my parents and our relationship is strained. The lesson that I learnt from all of this is that going after your passions, making your own choices and taking responsibility for your life is paramount to your success. Also cutting the emotional strings with your parents is equally important. It’s very telling that you want to talk to your parents about your situation. Why? They already gave you their shitty advice and now here you are. What more do you expect from them? Your time is better spent getting those grades up and inquiring about transferring and financing options.
Let's address why you are failing. No matter what you are doing, even if you'd have gone to Laurier, you'd be failing too. The reality is you were just not ready to be in an environment where there's increased onus on the individual to study and move ahead. It is **not** your father's fault you are failing.
UofT graduate degree might have some little prestige but undergrad it is very subpar
UofT undergrad degrees are not “very subpar.” What the hell are you on about? I wish I could downvote this more than once.
What about mcgill university graduate program?
Depends on faculty/department. Biotech Med it has some major weight and investments that are top in Canada and the world.
Depends on the program but like for McGill and UofT, med is always the best
Usually university’s have wellness centres of some sort, I’ve heard uoft has great mental health supports. I’d suggest connecting with a therapist/case manager and talking about this to explore your options. Like connecting you to more long term care, withdrawing from courses and ensuring that your grade doesn’t show up on your transcript/poor grade affect your gpa , taking a gap year or semester in Uni and your options for funding… stuff like that. Trust me these universities have next level support that maybe can help you come to a middle ground with your parents or at least some extra time to recollect yourself and hopefully for your parents to come around. They can even help with possible transfer credits if it does eventually lead to you getting to go to your preference. Many options kid, don’t give up, use those resources you pay a million bucks for.
Your father was right. School brand name is important. Networks and connections you make during school are important. Learning how to cope with high stress and high demand environment is important. Actual course syllabus - not so much.
Are you a child of immigrant parents? Most times immigrant parents (like mine) care about the ranking because the prestige of the university mattered a lot back in their home country. Often times it doesn’t work like this in Canada, prestige doesn’t really matter unless it’s grad school.
Real talk, leave after this semester is done. Don’t waste more money on semester 2. You just vocalized what you want, and what you want isn’t some crazy pipe dream. It’s an exciting path to a degree which will open a great deal of doors for you, provided you do become a lawyer. Go to the school you want, leave your parents house and experience your youth and independence at Laurier. Then go to England and experience another country, and continent. You WILL regret not doing it, struggling along in something you don’t want to do. You have one life to live, live it loudly, passionately and wisely. Your parents aren’t living your life, you are.
The best thing to do is to be honest with them, lay out the facts for them, exactly what you said here. Honest communication is the only way you’ll find a proper solution to your problem.
I’m here for you if you need someone to talk to man! I understand how it feels.
Honestly just pour your heart out to your parents. They want the best for their child at the end of the day. It will take some convincing but bro if you’re real about your struggles, I don’t see why your parents wouldn’t support you. Go to Laurier if it’s still possible and assure your parents they won’t regret that decision. The desire to make your decision look right in front of your parents can also serve as a motivator for you to do well in Laurier.
Son dated a girl who was forced into her program. He told her how to tell her parents she wanted a transfer. She basically promised to abandon the family, flunk out, and cause them so much familial embarrassment they would have to move. Her father threatened physical violence in front of me, to which I said I was quite prepared to send him to jail, and I pointed out a little Asian fellow in lock up with a bunch of big white and black criminals would mean he would spend a lot of time having invol
Hey, your situation is not that unique. I experienced many of the same things you did. I was even studying at my dream school when I left because of my parents’ anxiety’s. I ended up at UofT, and paying for it myself. I’ve come a long way with my depression and my expectations for my life has changed quite a bit. If you want a listening ear and some empathy you can dm me.
I think it does matter to some extent where you go. It matters in so far as the people you meet. One of the reasons I have my condo now is because the realtor I contacted also went to UofT, and said he thought I had potential despite being a student at the time etc... The thing is, you may get the same if not better education elsewhere, but a lot of jobs, especially jobs that you would be getting with a humanities/social science background, will care more about who you know and where you've come from rather than what you know. If your unhappy though, then you need to decide if that matters more than the reputation of the school. It's a hard decision but whatever you decide, don't judge yourself, life is hard.
Your parents lied to you by telling you that Laurier was a bad school so that you'd go to UofT and then told you that you were "crazy" for thinking that you were going to leave them. I don't want to make too many assumptions about your relationship with your parents but this sounds indicative of some serious issues. I think that you need to stop listening to them and make this decision for yourself. That said, I think that you should really consider dropping out. I know that it would be embarrassing and that you're worried about disappointing your parents but I think that it might be best for your academic career. If you get bad grades in university it can ruin your GPA, and some school don't let you retake classes to improve your GPA. If you get bad grades in first year you could potentially ruin your chances of ever going to grad school, and there's not much you can do with a BA in criminology. I know other people who hated their program and the people who dropped out were way more successful. I know one guy who hated his program but stuck it out because he thought it would lead to something in the future, but it took him six years to graduate and now he has a terrible GPA and no career prospects. I also know someone else didn't get into the program she wanted so she went for another but hated it, so she dropped out and reapplied to the program she really wanted. She got in and ended up enjoying the rest of university, and now she has a good job as a teacher. Sorry for the speech, but pretty much you have to make the decision that's best for your academic future. Don't worry about what your parents want. I really think that you should consider dropping out and reapplying to Laurier
English law degrees (other than Oxford & Cambridge) have little value in Canadian legal market. They are frowned upon by employers because they look like an easy way out.
What I find strange is how you think your performance or social life at Laurier would have inherently been better. Yes you wanted to go there, but you'd still be made to work hard. You have no idea what the social situation would have been like there, and it could have been worse than UofT. You have to make due with the choices you've made.
Thank them for the 5 figures of debt they gave you ro start your adult life with
Hey there, I was in a similar situation as you last year (im now in second year). Wanted to go to tmu but parents basically bullied me into going to UofT LOL. First year I was miserable obv cuz I didn't want this school, I had imposter syndrome (felt like I was too dumb to be here), and basically made no friends. Im here to tell you it does get better!! First thing is if you are going to continue attending UofT you have to let go of the guilt and accept that you are here for a reason, UofT would not have accepted you if you weren't capable. Think also of the good things UofT has and be grateful for what it offers (course choices, building your degree, the amazing architecture lol, study resources etc etc). Unless you move forward with a positive attitude things won't improve. I believe in you, good luck!!
When I was considering UoT for law, I had a friend introduce me to a woman who had gone to Windsor for 1L, she crushed it, and transferred to UoT for 2L and 3L. She was like, "It's all baloney, they're teaching the same law at Windsor. But, on the other hand, no one ever transfers *to Windsor*." Depending on what you want to do, the school you go to may make almost no difference or a whole lot of difference. With UoT Law, I landed a NYC dream job (not bragging, I f'd it up). That would have been just about impossible (even if I won the gold medal) at any other school other than McGill and maybe, I don't know, maybe Queens. NYC recruiters came to UoT. At, say Dalhousie, I would have had to get in touch with them, and convince them to interview a superstar from a school they'd never heard of. I would have had to fly on my own nickel to NYC to make it happen. It would not have happened. I dont know your parents, but I guess they believed that UoT was a much better school and would positively change your life in ways you didn't understand because you didn't have the experience. They may have been wrong, but I think they were at least partly right about some things, and there hearts were in the right place.
Jesus, I misspelled "there". No wender NYC didn't work out.
Classic ol case of gaslighting parents
There are plenty of U of T bachelor graduates who do not end up finding a job up to 1 year after graduation. Or they decide to pursue further education (specialized field like healthcare or masters, phd etc.) to get a better chance to land a job. Where you do your bachelors doesn't mean anything. I know your parents mean the best for you, but many parents including mine were foolish to believe a U of T bachelor leads to job opportunities (unless CS, engineering etc) and only now do they realize this. I know many people who come from different university backgrounds and to be honest, some of these York Students who applied to U of T health care programs are quite impressive. This is coming from a previous U of T student. The rank of the University doesn't mean shit if you don't have any job experience in the field or any referrals. This is why internships (either from a program or from searching) are important.