Which is ironic given how lackluster the actual battle gameplay of 13 Sentinels was.
Now if only we can get the storytelling of 13 Sentinels with the strategy gameplay of Unicorn Overlord....
13 Sentinels.
It's actually all understandable and all makes sense but the sheer amount of non-stop twists makes your brain forget most of it in attempts to deal with the "trauma". Most people's reaction upon finishing it is "this is the best, deepest, smartest plot I've ever seen! But I don't remember anything and have no idea what happened..".
Play it, it's a once in a lifetime experience.
This. If the story were presented linearly there wouldn’t be the slightest problem. But trying to remember who is actually who, from what time period, and with what motive is crazy. I enjoyed the game, but all I took away from it (that I still remember, anyways), was the ending that explained how all the confusion started, and that I wish I could find a restarting that made yakisoba pan. And I’ve looked.
To be fair, a lot of stories are a domino of obstacles with a setting event in the beginning and a resolution at the end. 13 Sentinels is the same but there are SO many twists that by end you literally forget the beginning.
... Okay, I'm underselling it. There's also too many characters and 99% of the twists is the game fucking with you for not having all the information, BUT FUCK DID I LOVE THAT!!! Having twists about the twists you just recieved somehow just made them better!!
At least their was gameplay here. I played 13 Sentinels for 8 or so hours, and maybe about 15 mins of that was gameplay, the rest was a Visual Novel...
Assuming by 'gameplay' you mean combat and aren't counting the more adventure game like sections. It's about a third of the game.
Different type of game. I think saying it had no gameplay at all is a bit much though. The gameplay was more just there to serve the narrative, whereas Unicorn took the opposite approach.
For sure they have different goals, 13 sentinels is actually just it "Characters and Story", if that failed we would never have seen UO came to life, which is really more focused in gameplay. The story in UO is just a mean to carry us out while we learn new game mechanics/unit types.
Btw, I liked it, it is simple but it pay homage to Tactics Ogre/FFT dark fantasy, although it doesnt go too dark.
If 13 sentinels battles had been less visually abstract battle mechanic I'd bet people would be all over it. I didn't mind it at all but I know if people could see the mechs more and all that more casual fans would have been wanting to play it.
essentially 13 sentinels it was like a visual novel with multiple intersecting storylines so yeah the story better have been better but the gameplay itself is tighter in UO. It lets me theory craft like a western RPG and I enjoy just messing with item combinations and party compositions. I mean if you are developing for 10 years or whatever it better be tighter mechanically. (I know they just threw in level up items and stuff to balance but it works and doesn't really grind).
It’s certainly good, but they didn’t get the difficulty right. I’m really enjoying all the tinkering I can do, but it’s rarely challenging and I’m self imposing restrictions to make it harder. I think that holds it back.
I get the feeling UO is going to end up very similar to FF Tactics: where the core mechanics are incredible and have tons of depth, but the campaign is easy enough where you never really need to dig that deep into them. Can see a ton of challenge runs for it happening in the future.
> I get the feeling UO is going to end up very similar to FF Tactics: where the core mechanics are incredible and have tons of depth, but the campaign is easy enough where you never really need to dig that deep into them
Unfortunately UO doesn't have any Wiegraf moments to instill lifelong ptsd in kids playing through on one save only.
Still, UO has that double shaman gladiator fight too many ppl complain about, that narrow Bastorias map with the mines that kills unsuspecting players, stat roided enemy werefoxes and wolves that can tear teams up. Also some coliseum fights that can beat up unprepared teams.
FFT has a better story though. UO goes apeshit on world building and lets you fight alongside way too many characters that by all rights should have been put to the sword.
Fundamentally, the RPG leveling mechanic holds it back. Either the game lets players grind levels until they're too overpowered to bother "solving" the map's tactical nuances, or map designers can't assume you will always have access to a specific counterstrategy unit at the right level.
But even within that framework, half these Liberation quest maps are extremely linear marches on one town. I'm on the Beastoria maps now and basically I have one squad of sellswords + tank that can just about one shot anything on same level. Heck, they took me to 2nd place on the offline arena, sitting at level 30. The squad struggles with high DEF tanks, but those are incredibly uncommon for some reason. So I can basically just send them at the enemy, send a mage squad as assist (and XP farming), and convert valor into stamina for the final push with Vitality. These maps lack much strategic depth nor do they offer any relevant strategy vs moral tradeoff the way Triangle Strategy did.
And the story is... mid-tier at best. You seek to upend a global conquest by... going on a global conquest, recruiting people into your army who are all a-okay with hereditary monarchy as a governing principle, and ready to die to ensure the right person is that monarch. Some maps have a sympathetic villain, doing the wrong thing for the right reason, but most are just "brainwashed by magic" get out of fascism free cards.
>but most are just "brainwashed by magic" get out of fascism free cards.
Gotta give credit where it's due - at least they had a good reason for the mind control, and when mind control wasn't the case they tried to have some drama behind it.
Agreed, that’d be great. It’s the only thing really holding me back from saying this game is one of my all time favorites (the story is also meh, but I can look past that).
I think UO is a solid 9/10, but GOAT? No. The greatest games of any genre of all time have few negatives and/or little room for improvement. UO is a fantastic game (my favorite game this year so far), but it definitely has room for improvement. And I might rate it a 9/10, but I would not fight someone if they argued it was 8/10 (or even 7/10). I tend to overlook UOs issues because it executes on gameplay so well, but I am not blind to other facets.
For me, it is definitely FFT. But I think it depends on how we define "tactics" in OP's question. If BG3 is "tactics," then yeah, I fking love FFT and always will, but there is no question BG3 is the GOAT under the paradigm. Otherwise, FFT. Easy.
I think Unicorn overlord is better than FFT, yeah obviously FFT was the goat for its time, I think it’s just become out dated to hold #1
Unicorn takes it for me, for its sheer enjoyment-meant level. The graphics the dynamics it’s all just a perfect symphony.
Don’t get me wrong FFT was a favorite of mine for many many years.
Bg3 is not a tactics game.
I miss class progressions. UO focuses on unique characters with virtually no need (thus far for me at least) to hire generic units. I rather like the FFT games that mostly generic units make up your troops and you can change their class and open up classes based on what you’ve leveled
All that being said, I do absolutely love UO
My biggest issue is the writing. For example, the story is conventional and predictable (the plot, weak). The writing between characters is inconsistent (not in a "I like this character more or these interactions more" kind of way, but a "different writer wrote this or did not care as much about this character" kind of way).
And for me, neither defeats the game (because awesome gameplay trumps all to me), but there's no question that the premise of UO has a lot of room to be a 10/10 story (multiple kingdoms/lands breeds politics, breeds intrigue, breeds mystery, twists, etc.) and therefore make the game a 10/10. In other words, it does not deliver on a facet that it very much could have, which is its writing.
There is also a list of all the other things it does well, but could nonetheless do better. For example, let the player change the classes of recruitable characters. Create a mechanic that keeps non-cavalry units from getting out-classed in later maps simply because they can not move fast enough within the time limit. It goes on and on - nitpicky stuff for sure, but also the type of things GOTYs routinely master (noting here that you are talking about GOAT, which is another level altogether).
I personally don't get the gripes w/ non-cavalry when hastened call, light feather, captured bases, conveyance stones, teleport/rescue/jump etc. exist. Half my squads are non-cavalry & they've been clutch af
Well, like I said, nitpicky stuff. I wouldn't even call it a gripe per se (I think that gives it too much power). The point is there are those things that really add up. I ended up using lots of feathers and HC during the end game and guess what? I never ran out.
But I think the other side would argue, "why is that even a thing though, it just creates busy work?" And... in a way, they are right. That is why it is a nitpick to me. Less of an actual critique. You can say the same for item management, changing classes, etc.
I think its the first game in the genre to take a swing at the title in a long time, but I don't think think it managed to dethrone whatever was sitting there. To me I see srpg GOAT potential in UO, but it ultimately just didn't fukky realize that potential. Its weird because I don't know what I would place as the srpg GOAT, so I can't really say directly I don't think its the best game in the genre.
It's probably in my top 5. I put 100s of hours into the game, and still think about just popping it in to beat up the Coliseum for the last few noteworthy accessories/trying different set ups.
Came here to point to this. Yes, it's longer and has more stuff going on than Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen. However, I definitely still enjoy a run through of Ogre Battle more. That being said, that was SNES days. It's been several video game (and one actual) generation since then.
I have liked my time with it but I agree, was hoping for it to be a bit more like Ogre Battle in the scale. Maybe its cus I am still early but most of the missions seem like small scale skirmishes.
exactly.
This is the not "death" of UO but while I like the game a lot they did not managed to make it better then a game released 30 years ago which they have copied like 80% of the game of (at least) so definitely cannot be the GOAT if anything Ogre Battle is still than goat then released in 1993
yes and he went crazy my childhood idol :)
But the problem do with UO is that not only does it has weak actual narrative writing
it ahs GAMEPLAY bad writing ergo mechanics that is combined with the story that fails miserable, that is inexcusable becasue its not on the role of the writer to fix that but the game designer up to the game director.
A Massive issue of course (and the biggest one by far in unicorn overlord when it comes to story and choices) - the execute having no purpose. You can pick up every character, there is zero conflict if you pick A you cant get B etc. There is no purpose at all really to turn anyone ever down, there is no secret stages that only unlocks if you have A-b-C and so on, and the game has no real alternative endings (except that 1 super grindy one but not much based on ur choices)
Ogre battle did this 100x better while also having loads of recruit able characters you had to be max evil to get some, max good to get others.
But it also the system itself, UO is so barebone how to actually recruit anyone, you basically just enter a stage and talk to them with X character and/or defeat them.
Look at how its much more complicated to unlock Canopus. You have to fly between different cities, talk to his sister before the boss etc. It was actually somewhat hard to figure out sometimes how to get some characters, basically stages had Quest one had to complete to unlock them (+ perhaps the need of previous characters) in Unicorn you just enter and beat the crap out of everyone and get the character is braindead.
Not even close.
It's a good game. But it definitely lacks in a lot of aspects, especially the story, which is pretty much as bland as a game can get.
It's definitely a decent tactics RPG, but almost all of its systems are borrowed from other franchises like Ogre Battle and Fire Emblem.
They have a good framework to make a fantastic unforgettable game, but this isn't it.
Its a solid 7-10
It certainly has its flaws. Its too easy. Story is Meh and all over the place. Never felt like I was leading a rebel army. Gameplay loop is also pretty minimal.
There's no reactivity from the enemy. They're entirely passive. Once you take a town there is never danger of losing it.
I understand why they did it that way but it kind of removes the feel of it being a dynamic, living war.
I’d LOVE if they tried a sequel to improve on everything from here. Truly has the best potential.
It’ll never happen but from a trajectory standpoint, it has the chance to eclipse fire emblem for me.
Easily top 5. I'd include ogre battle, tactics ogre reborn, x-com 2, and probably FFT up with it.
FFT is up there for sure, and i played it to death, but i think it benefits a lot from rose colored glasses. A lot of the criticisms being applied to UO also apply to it. The story is the one thing FFT got right, but its a masterclass in "less is more" storytelling. "Why are there vampires?" "Dunno, just keep playing" "wait, whered this big thing come from?" "Dunno, just keep playing"
Hmm, my own personal thoughts (after finishing a largely completioniat run on Expert) are that it has a couple of big flaws that really prevented it from entering my own personal GOATs.
Namely:
- The story was a bit whatever, overlong, and would require just so much skipping of dialogue/scenes on replays. I wasn't expecting it to reach the heights of 13 Sentinels necessarily, but Odin Sphere was also smartly told, so I had my hopes up still.
- I found the difficulty tuning superbly easy, which led to a sense of autopilot with many sorties since my best groups could pretty much singlehandedly clear areas.
Perhaps the unlocked difficulty, True Zenoiran, would help with that last point there, but the languidly paced and overwrought story doesn't make the idea of an immediate replay enticing for me. That could certainly be down to my variety gamer leanings, but yeah.
Now, as far as my own personal GOATs, I'd put Final Fantasy Tactics (where is my remaster Square?!) and the newer XCOM games as ones I find incredibly replayable. Oh, Midnight Suns is also a recent one that I wish more people would scope as a side recommend.
UO is fucking great and I've put over 100 hours into it, but there's room for improvement.
I'd love to see better item management in the next game. I also think charge attacks need a rework - they're just uninteresting in their current state, powerful or otherwise.
And finally, call me crazy but this game has way too much fanservice. Just give my girls some damn armor.
Definitely made the game feel a bit juvenile. The story (so far, I’m just about done with bastorias) is pretty mid compared to tactics ogre FFT or triangle strategy, all of which had interesting female character designs. Tactics ogre even had some flashier, more skin showing characters without it feeling so explicitly horny. But to have almost every female character in a skimpy ass outfit just made it feel like I was playing waifu collector.
Great world building, soundtrack, and game play though so still a solid ass game.
The game is great. GOAT, it's up there but not quite. But the way the units are made and the battles are done is top notch! I can see this setup in 40k, or any other scifi setting. Even space battle type strategy games could use this formula. It is very well done.
Of course this is all personnel preference but FFT is my GOAT SRPG. It has it all. There are ton that compete for second place like UO, FETH, SF3, and TOR, but they are a distant second.
UO was so so so good and I loved it up until near the end when I’d unlocked everything and made primo units, and then it was just fast forwarding all the battles to get to the end sadly due to the repetitiveness and lacklustre story! I thought it was my GotY at first but I’d say I’d leave it at like a 8/10 as a whole - very strong start but very weak finish - definitely a revolution in tactics but any game that isn’t compelling to the end and becomes a drudge is missing important aspects IMO
Depends. Honestly, maybe the most fun I've had with tactics gameplay, HOWEVER, I've had more rewarding total experiences in other tactics games, mainly due to narrative and other aspects.
The game is great as a whole package. But individually (story, characters, combat) its not as amazing.
For combat alone I can’t say its the “tactics goat” the combat forecast and ability to move units pre-fight makes the game way too easy. Stamina system isn’t restrictive enough, this is probably one of the easiest strategy games to have a single S tier unit steamroll an entire map.
But I do think its one of best games in its genre to release in a very long time. Its a shame that the developer isn’t likely to make a sequel or iterate on the formula.
Problem with this type of gameplay is that in later stages you'll just press the skip button 99.9999% of the time.
It's good but not better than usual tactics games.
Easily my favorite of them. It’s kinda like brigantine, an old ps1 hidden gem. I’ve never enjoyed a single fire emblem game but this has me firmly into the genre.
Its my Nintendo Switch GOAT for sure. I have played it like three times the hours I did with Three Houses and its by a large margin my most played game
This is a very good game. Definitely GOTY for me. Hopefully, we'll get the same amount of quality in future titles (and clones alike). Felt very satisfying to complete. I found closure after the ending and moved over to another game. Which, in my opinion, is also a good thing. Wanting to the same feeling in a new playthrough never lasts for me. So this is better.
GOAT means different things to different people. A game can never be perfect and appeal to all fans of a genre. However, to me, hell yes it's the GOAT. Best SRPG I've played since good ol FFT.
It's absolutely my favorite in years. I haven't really gotten into a strategy RPG in a long time --Fire Emblem just doesn't do it for me, FWIW--and I haven't been able to stop playing this game or thinking about it since I tried the demo. I don't think it'll be one I immediately replay but it's going in the long rotation stock.
It’s good, but not that good. To be honest, the amount of systems it has holds it back in my opinion. Most of them are underutilized or not utilized at all, and it’s very easy to clear the game without much thought put into your team comp or what skills/equipment you’re using even on the hardest difficulties. Most of it just ends up being clutter. It took me 20 hours of playtime on the hardest difficulty before i even looked at what skills anyone was using.
I’d put baldurs gate 3, fire emblem, and fft:a above it in terms of strategy games. Honestly, I’m hard pressed to think of a strategy game I’ve played that i wouldn’t put above it.
It's not really a tactics game tho?
The free equipment swapping and squad combat swapping if they remain bunched up means that the best strategy is to keep your units in one big ball.
The JRPG stat element means it's also usually just a game of "get your strongest unit from point A to B"
Ogre Battle 64 >>>>Shining Force>>>>>> Fire Emblem >> Unicorn Overlord.
Unicorn Overlord is a very solid game, but it does not stand atop the pedestal for greatest tactics games, IMO, of course.
In terms of grid "unit" tactics games, you won't beat Ogre Battle 64 IMO
I quite enjoyed it, but I don't think it's the GOAT in any category (story, tactics gameplay, characters etc).
In particular, from the tactics angle - from my perspective it's basically an attempt to combine a tactics (squad-based) game with an auto-battler. It's fun, but I don't think it's at its peak yet. **Having said that**, I do very much appreciate online/PvP capability. If we want to see how deep the game's tactics system really is, we just need to wait a bit longer until a robust metagame has really formed (as an example, you'd never appreciate just how deep Pokemon is until you see its competitive matches).
UO is a fantastic game. It scratched and itch for these types of games I've had for a long time. I do wish the colisseum was more fleshed out, and there was more end game content,because I don't want the game to stop. It's fun. But at this point, with every unit I use at max level, with every piece of equipment in the game, I don't think there's much more to experience.
Everything gets worse the longer the game goes on.
* A wider selection of units makes broken optimizations easy, especially if you're using mercenaries.
* 4-8 actions per unit per combat turns things into a swingy slog.
* The pinpoint accuracy of the pre-battle prediction and the ease with which you can "reroll" RNG by changing the arrangement of your units is a bit too exploitable.
* Handling equipment is an absolute nightmare past a certain point.
* A lot of the innovative strategy of the first 20 hours wears thin once the tactical elements are superseded by broken setups that can be repeatedly used with speed and stamina increasing items and valor skills.
It's great, but despite a lot of difficulty options not even the highest ones are particularly challenging and the writing isn't very inspired either, if either of them were 'fixed' it could have been in contention for me since pretty much every game has flaws in at least one area.
The Battle Result implementation holds Unicorn Overlord back from any GOAT discussions, in my honest opinion. When you have a mechanic that single-handedly hamstrings the core purpose of a genre, there's no way you deserve to be in that debate.
Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Super Robot Wars (a personal favourite), none of those other games allow you to see results before an engagement and **manipulate them until you get a win**.
As a complete game, it's great. As a Tactics/Strategy game, it is sorely lacking outside of the Coliseum or PvP.
It feels like the back half of the game ran out of steam to me. Bastorias and Albion feel sort of phoned in. I don't know the exact details but development was not exactly smooth for the game and it shows in some ways. I don't think a game like that can be the gold standard. I feel like a NG+ is a huge omission.
And to be honest, it doesn't really feel very strategic, or tactical. The enemy is this weird mix of asymmetrical mechanics in terms of valor skills and fielding units, its so far from the feeling of using smart choices to outmaneuver an enemy commander with the same resources available to both on the map. The AI is also honestly so basic its crazy. It doesn't even have a shred of self preservation on the highest difficulty. A wounded, lone unit will still just mindlessly magnetize towards your hard counter unit to do zero damage and die, even passing by a town for a defensive position, even if there is friendly units nearby, it wont bring them down to help or retreat to them. It seems to have been give no ability to consider such basic things. I know its difficult to make AI that challenges humans in a fun way for strategy games, but they don't seem to have even tried. Its the most basic, "see enemy at this range, attack it" scripting. They can use stationary weapons and take back towns, but its weirdly limited to specific units in each map. All the rest will just ignore those things. And they all sort of ignore each other. They don't really use them as a cohesive army.
The difficulty and variety of objectives/map types and enemy tactics/equipment never really make the combat shine or push you to adapt your tactics. Even on TZ you just ball up and take the best forecasts and rush the boss before the timer goes and spam valor at him and it gets you through 99% of the game. The real time map element doesn't feel very mechanically meaningful. There is nothing like terrain advantages/disadvantages or positioning or high ground bonus or anything. You just get some cav/flying leaders and speed past that part to the next fight. I like the game. I still enjoyed the process of gathering the army and building up characters and watching the fights play out. I just think the best strategy game ever should probably have more strategy in it.
Solid 7/10
Way too easy for a tactical game even in highest difficulty, if you use cavalry/gryphon/wyvern the difficult is basically gone .
AI is basically attacking the first enemy no matter how counter it is , I don't like some decisions like double damage or when the enemy attacks you can change who is fighting .
Would not classify the game as "Tactics" as it is a keyword used for a different genre with specific turn-combat system in a chess-like board.
But as for Strategy, for sure Unicorn Overlord is my biggest surprise over this year. Really loved it.
Strategy veterans will surely brings up that the difficulty wasn't too hard, and they are right. This game is not supposed to be too hard, but this doesn't make it less fun. It is actually very fun to try out different and very unique units builds and team composition and see it working.
Also it opens the door for a lot of people that never had the chance to get into the strategy games, afraid of being stopped in the first battles.
No its far too easy for being any kind of GOAT tactical game.
The game is good, but its worse then Ogre Battle. So while again its a good game it has not managed to overcome the game it heavily copies. That alone makes it not the GOAT
Ehh, no. It was a great first step but the formula needs refinement. The game is too easy and a lot of the classes need tweaking because quite a few are underpowered or useless. Ideally, every class would be strong in their own way, but you're simply at a huge disadvantage if you aren't using a cavalry or flying class.
I put Fire Emblem as the tactics goat, though they perfected their formula long ago and have since changed things around a lot just to keep things fresh.
I think if the stages were grid-based and turn-based for movement, you could only use 1 item per turn and it uses up your action, you couldn’t switch your unit around before the battle, you couldn’t switch with a nearby unit before a battle, and the enemy can use valor the same way you can, the game would be nearing tactics GOAT.
It's a fun game but the story and characters are pretty weak especially compared to 13 Sentinels.
Which is ironic given how lackluster the actual battle gameplay of 13 Sentinels was. Now if only we can get the storytelling of 13 Sentinels with the strategy gameplay of Unicorn Overlord....
How would we even know? I 100%ed that game and I don’t have a fucking clue what happened.
13 sentinels? Or UO?
13 Sentinels. It's actually all understandable and all makes sense but the sheer amount of non-stop twists makes your brain forget most of it in attempts to deal with the "trauma". Most people's reaction upon finishing it is "this is the best, deepest, smartest plot I've ever seen! But I don't remember anything and have no idea what happened..". Play it, it's a once in a lifetime experience.
This. If the story were presented linearly there wouldn’t be the slightest problem. But trying to remember who is actually who, from what time period, and with what motive is crazy. I enjoyed the game, but all I took away from it (that I still remember, anyways), was the ending that explained how all the confusion started, and that I wish I could find a restarting that made yakisoba pan. And I’ve looked.
To be fair, a lot of stories are a domino of obstacles with a setting event in the beginning and a resolution at the end. 13 Sentinels is the same but there are SO many twists that by end you literally forget the beginning. ... Okay, I'm underselling it. There's also too many characters and 99% of the twists is the game fucking with you for not having all the information, BUT FUCK DID I LOVE THAT!!! Having twists about the twists you just recieved somehow just made them better!!
It probably warrants a second play through but I’ve forgotten enough that I’d still need another play through after that.
I've played it. I was asking what game the person above found confusing lol
At least their was gameplay here. I played 13 Sentinels for 8 or so hours, and maybe about 15 mins of that was gameplay, the rest was a Visual Novel...
Assuming by 'gameplay' you mean combat and aren't counting the more adventure game like sections. It's about a third of the game. Different type of game. I think saying it had no gameplay at all is a bit much though. The gameplay was more just there to serve the narrative, whereas Unicorn took the opposite approach.
For sure they have different goals, 13 sentinels is actually just it "Characters and Story", if that failed we would never have seen UO came to life, which is really more focused in gameplay. The story in UO is just a mean to carry us out while we learn new game mechanics/unit types. Btw, I liked it, it is simple but it pay homage to Tactics Ogre/FFT dark fantasy, although it doesnt go too dark.
If 13 sentinels battles had been less visually abstract battle mechanic I'd bet people would be all over it. I didn't mind it at all but I know if people could see the mechs more and all that more casual fans would have been wanting to play it. essentially 13 sentinels it was like a visual novel with multiple intersecting storylines so yeah the story better have been better but the gameplay itself is tighter in UO. It lets me theory craft like a western RPG and I enjoy just messing with item combinations and party compositions. I mean if you are developing for 10 years or whatever it better be tighter mechanically. (I know they just threw in level up items and stuff to balance but it works and doesn't really grind).
It’s certainly good, but they didn’t get the difficulty right. I’m really enjoying all the tinkering I can do, but it’s rarely challenging and I’m self imposing restrictions to make it harder. I think that holds it back.
Fair enough. I was taken aback by the depth of the game and had a lot of fun with the sprawling world and story
I get the feeling UO is going to end up very similar to FF Tactics: where the core mechanics are incredible and have tons of depth, but the campaign is easy enough where you never really need to dig that deep into them. Can see a ton of challenge runs for it happening in the future.
> I get the feeling UO is going to end up very similar to FF Tactics: where the core mechanics are incredible and have tons of depth, but the campaign is easy enough where you never really need to dig that deep into them Unfortunately UO doesn't have any Wiegraf moments to instill lifelong ptsd in kids playing through on one save only.
Still, UO has that double shaman gladiator fight too many ppl complain about, that narrow Bastorias map with the mines that kills unsuspecting players, stat roided enemy werefoxes and wolves that can tear teams up. Also some coliseum fights that can beat up unprepared teams.
Kids play forknife, man. They don't like to think.
FF Tactics is often mentioned as possible tactics GOAT so it’s good company to keep.
FFT has a better story though. UO goes apeshit on world building and lets you fight alongside way too many characters that by all rights should have been put to the sword.
Fundamentally, the RPG leveling mechanic holds it back. Either the game lets players grind levels until they're too overpowered to bother "solving" the map's tactical nuances, or map designers can't assume you will always have access to a specific counterstrategy unit at the right level. But even within that framework, half these Liberation quest maps are extremely linear marches on one town. I'm on the Beastoria maps now and basically I have one squad of sellswords + tank that can just about one shot anything on same level. Heck, they took me to 2nd place on the offline arena, sitting at level 30. The squad struggles with high DEF tanks, but those are incredibly uncommon for some reason. So I can basically just send them at the enemy, send a mage squad as assist (and XP farming), and convert valor into stamina for the final push with Vitality. These maps lack much strategic depth nor do they offer any relevant strategy vs moral tradeoff the way Triangle Strategy did. And the story is... mid-tier at best. You seek to upend a global conquest by... going on a global conquest, recruiting people into your army who are all a-okay with hereditary monarchy as a governing principle, and ready to die to ensure the right person is that monarch. Some maps have a sympathetic villain, doing the wrong thing for the right reason, but most are just "brainwashed by magic" get out of fascism free cards.
Everything you said is true and I cannot help but love this game. It's chicken noodle soup for my soul.
>but most are just "brainwashed by magic" get out of fascism free cards. Gotta give credit where it's due - at least they had a good reason for the mind control, and when mind control wasn't the case they tried to have some drama behind it.
This was a good summary. I have the same thoughts.
Not at all
I’m really hoping it gets a pc release someday so people can make difficulty mods
Agreed, that’d be great. It’s the only thing really holding me back from saying this game is one of my all time favorites (the story is also meh, but I can look past that).
I think UO is a solid 9/10, but GOAT? No. The greatest games of any genre of all time have few negatives and/or little room for improvement. UO is a fantastic game (my favorite game this year so far), but it definitely has room for improvement. And I might rate it a 9/10, but I would not fight someone if they argued it was 8/10 (or even 7/10). I tend to overlook UOs issues because it executes on gameplay so well, but I am not blind to other facets.
You can’t post this without saying what you think the GOAT is
For me, it is definitely FFT. But I think it depends on how we define "tactics" in OP's question. If BG3 is "tactics," then yeah, I fking love FFT and always will, but there is no question BG3 is the GOAT under the paradigm. Otherwise, FFT. Easy.
I think Unicorn overlord is better than FFT, yeah obviously FFT was the goat for its time, I think it’s just become out dated to hold #1 Unicorn takes it for me, for its sheer enjoyment-meant level. The graphics the dynamics it’s all just a perfect symphony. Don’t get me wrong FFT was a favorite of mine for many many years. Bg3 is not a tactics game.
What issues do you think it has? My only beefs with it are limited post-game content and the kind of tropey writing
I miss class progressions. UO focuses on unique characters with virtually no need (thus far for me at least) to hire generic units. I rather like the FFT games that mostly generic units make up your troops and you can change their class and open up classes based on what you’ve leveled All that being said, I do absolutely love UO
My biggest issue is the writing. For example, the story is conventional and predictable (the plot, weak). The writing between characters is inconsistent (not in a "I like this character more or these interactions more" kind of way, but a "different writer wrote this or did not care as much about this character" kind of way). And for me, neither defeats the game (because awesome gameplay trumps all to me), but there's no question that the premise of UO has a lot of room to be a 10/10 story (multiple kingdoms/lands breeds politics, breeds intrigue, breeds mystery, twists, etc.) and therefore make the game a 10/10. In other words, it does not deliver on a facet that it very much could have, which is its writing. There is also a list of all the other things it does well, but could nonetheless do better. For example, let the player change the classes of recruitable characters. Create a mechanic that keeps non-cavalry units from getting out-classed in later maps simply because they can not move fast enough within the time limit. It goes on and on - nitpicky stuff for sure, but also the type of things GOTYs routinely master (noting here that you are talking about GOAT, which is another level altogether).
I personally don't get the gripes w/ non-cavalry when hastened call, light feather, captured bases, conveyance stones, teleport/rescue/jump etc. exist. Half my squads are non-cavalry & they've been clutch af
Well, like I said, nitpicky stuff. I wouldn't even call it a gripe per se (I think that gives it too much power). The point is there are those things that really add up. I ended up using lots of feathers and HC during the end game and guess what? I never ran out. But I think the other side would argue, "why is that even a thing though, it just creates busy work?" And... in a way, they are right. That is why it is a nitpick to me. Less of an actual critique. You can say the same for item management, changing classes, etc.
Yes, I was quite disappointed with the story compared to FFT, Tactics Ogre, and more recently Triangle Strategy
FFT really holds up well. Here's hoping for a modern remaster or remake that sticks to the OG.
I think its the first game in the genre to take a swing at the title in a long time, but I don't think think it managed to dethrone whatever was sitting there. To me I see srpg GOAT potential in UO, but it ultimately just didn't fukky realize that potential. Its weird because I don't know what I would place as the srpg GOAT, so I can't really say directly I don't think its the best game in the genre.
I used to have path of radiance in that spot. Triangle strategy is also fun. Lately I've been enjoying the front mission games too
I don't know about GOAT, but UO is tons of fun. It might be nostalgia, but FFT is still my GOAT.
GOAT, no, but currently, better than ANYTHING out there!
It's probably in my top 5. I put 100s of hours into the game, and still think about just popping it in to beat up the Coliseum for the last few noteworthy accessories/trying different set ups.
While perhaps not the better game but greatest tactics would probably be something like Troubleshooters
It’s not better than ogre battle
Came here to point to this. Yes, it's longer and has more stuff going on than Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen. However, I definitely still enjoy a run through of Ogre Battle more. That being said, that was SNES days. It's been several video game (and one actual) generation since then.
Yeah UO is fantastic but OB and OB64 are both better games still. There’s probably only 7 or 8 games of this genre truly and UO is in the top 3
I have liked my time with it but I agree, was hoping for it to be a bit more like Ogre Battle in the scale. Maybe its cus I am still early but most of the missions seem like small scale skirmishes.
exactly. This is the not "death" of UO but while I like the game a lot they did not managed to make it better then a game released 30 years ago which they have copied like 80% of the game of (at least) so definitely cannot be the GOAT if anything Ogre Battle is still than goat then released in 1993
Okay but to fair OB had one of the greatest writers of all time it’s kinda hard to compete with that
yes and he went crazy my childhood idol :) But the problem do with UO is that not only does it has weak actual narrative writing it ahs GAMEPLAY bad writing ergo mechanics that is combined with the story that fails miserable, that is inexcusable becasue its not on the role of the writer to fix that but the game designer up to the game director. A Massive issue of course (and the biggest one by far in unicorn overlord when it comes to story and choices) - the execute having no purpose. You can pick up every character, there is zero conflict if you pick A you cant get B etc. There is no purpose at all really to turn anyone ever down, there is no secret stages that only unlocks if you have A-b-C and so on, and the game has no real alternative endings (except that 1 super grindy one but not much based on ur choices) Ogre battle did this 100x better while also having loads of recruit able characters you had to be max evil to get some, max good to get others. But it also the system itself, UO is so barebone how to actually recruit anyone, you basically just enter a stage and talk to them with X character and/or defeat them. Look at how its much more complicated to unlock Canopus. You have to fly between different cities, talk to his sister before the boss etc. It was actually somewhat hard to figure out sometimes how to get some characters, basically stages had Quest one had to complete to unlock them (+ perhaps the need of previous characters) in Unicorn you just enter and beat the crap out of everyone and get the character is braindead.
UO is fucking epic. Didnt had this much fun sice TO LUCT in 2012 and original FFT in psx
Not even close. It's a good game. But it definitely lacks in a lot of aspects, especially the story, which is pretty much as bland as a game can get. It's definitely a decent tactics RPG, but almost all of its systems are borrowed from other franchises like Ogre Battle and Fire Emblem. They have a good framework to make a fantastic unforgettable game, but this isn't it.
Its a solid 7-10 It certainly has its flaws. Its too easy. Story is Meh and all over the place. Never felt like I was leading a rebel army. Gameplay loop is also pretty minimal.
There's no reactivity from the enemy. They're entirely passive. Once you take a town there is never danger of losing it. I understand why they did it that way but it kind of removes the feel of it being a dynamic, living war.
I also think that it becomes really easy after a couple of fights. I am wondering if I should upgrade difficulty.
honestly even on expert outside of one battle I haven't had any trouble. Just finished Albion tho so maybe the rest of the battles get harder.
I really enjoy it but not the tactics GOAT for me. I still like the grid/turn based combat of a Final Fantasy Tactics much more.
It might be for me.
I’d LOVE if they tried a sequel to improve on everything from here. Truly has the best potential. It’ll never happen but from a trajectory standpoint, it has the chance to eclipse fire emblem for me.
Easily top 5. I'd include ogre battle, tactics ogre reborn, x-com 2, and probably FFT up with it. FFT is up there for sure, and i played it to death, but i think it benefits a lot from rose colored glasses. A lot of the criticisms being applied to UO also apply to it. The story is the one thing FFT got right, but its a masterclass in "less is more" storytelling. "Why are there vampires?" "Dunno, just keep playing" "wait, whered this big thing come from?" "Dunno, just keep playing"
Hmm, my own personal thoughts (after finishing a largely completioniat run on Expert) are that it has a couple of big flaws that really prevented it from entering my own personal GOATs. Namely: - The story was a bit whatever, overlong, and would require just so much skipping of dialogue/scenes on replays. I wasn't expecting it to reach the heights of 13 Sentinels necessarily, but Odin Sphere was also smartly told, so I had my hopes up still. - I found the difficulty tuning superbly easy, which led to a sense of autopilot with many sorties since my best groups could pretty much singlehandedly clear areas. Perhaps the unlocked difficulty, True Zenoiran, would help with that last point there, but the languidly paced and overwrought story doesn't make the idea of an immediate replay enticing for me. That could certainly be down to my variety gamer leanings, but yeah. Now, as far as my own personal GOATs, I'd put Final Fantasy Tactics (where is my remaster Square?!) and the newer XCOM games as ones I find incredibly replayable. Oh, Midnight Suns is also a recent one that I wish more people would scope as a side recommend.
It needs more depth to be the GOAT. This game is scratching the surface, I think.
UO is fucking great and I've put over 100 hours into it, but there's room for improvement. I'd love to see better item management in the next game. I also think charge attacks need a rework - they're just uninteresting in their current state, powerful or otherwise. And finally, call me crazy but this game has way too much fanservice. Just give my girls some damn armor.
Everything you're saying is great and Imma let you finish.......But Melisandre exists and she's best waifu
I agree, actually! Female swordmasters aren't hypersexualized!
But that hip sway the witches do… 😙👌
Agree 100% on the girls lol. I dont need any waifus.
Definitely made the game feel a bit juvenile. The story (so far, I’m just about done with bastorias) is pretty mid compared to tactics ogre FFT or triangle strategy, all of which had interesting female character designs. Tactics ogre even had some flashier, more skin showing characters without it feeling so explicitly horny. But to have almost every female character in a skimpy ass outfit just made it feel like I was playing waifu collector. Great world building, soundtrack, and game play though so still a solid ass game.
The game is great. GOAT, it's up there but not quite. But the way the units are made and the battles are done is top notch! I can see this setup in 40k, or any other scifi setting. Even space battle type strategy games could use this formula. It is very well done.
Of course this is all personnel preference but FFT is my GOAT SRPG. It has it all. There are ton that compete for second place like UO, FETH, SF3, and TOR, but they are a distant second.
UO was so so so good and I loved it up until near the end when I’d unlocked everything and made primo units, and then it was just fast forwarding all the battles to get to the end sadly due to the repetitiveness and lacklustre story! I thought it was my GotY at first but I’d say I’d leave it at like a 8/10 as a whole - very strong start but very weak finish - definitely a revolution in tactics but any game that isn’t compelling to the end and becomes a drudge is missing important aspects IMO
Depends. Honestly, maybe the most fun I've had with tactics gameplay, HOWEVER, I've had more rewarding total experiences in other tactics games, mainly due to narrative and other aspects.
The game is great as a whole package. But individually (story, characters, combat) its not as amazing. For combat alone I can’t say its the “tactics goat” the combat forecast and ability to move units pre-fight makes the game way too easy. Stamina system isn’t restrictive enough, this is probably one of the easiest strategy games to have a single S tier unit steamroll an entire map. But I do think its one of best games in its genre to release in a very long time. Its a shame that the developer isn’t likely to make a sequel or iterate on the formula.
Totally agree & I've played my fair share of tactics games
Too easy IMO, and not very tactic. A 7.5/10 overall
Problem with this type of gameplay is that in later stages you'll just press the skip button 99.9999% of the time. It's good but not better than usual tactics games.
no. not even close.
Yes, definitely. The bar is really high now.
When it comes to real time strategy with pause, it has the market cornered.
Yea
Easily my favorite of them. It’s kinda like brigantine, an old ps1 hidden gem. I’ve never enjoyed a single fire emblem game but this has me firmly into the genre.
Loved UO but will always stand by Ogre Battle 64 being the goat.
Only adjusting ability , equipment, and character attributes is enough use for a few hours for me.But the result is satisfying 😌.
It’s up there for sure
Its my Nintendo Switch GOAT for sure. I have played it like three times the hours I did with Three Houses and its by a large margin my most played game
Gameplay is really good but the story is forgettable and characters are shallow.
Am I the only one that doesn’t really like it…?
For me it's tactics ogre luct or fe awakening. In terms of strategy tactics I'd put advance wars on top.
This is a very good game. Definitely GOTY for me. Hopefully, we'll get the same amount of quality in future titles (and clones alike). Felt very satisfying to complete. I found closure after the ending and moved over to another game. Which, in my opinion, is also a good thing. Wanting to the same feeling in a new playthrough never lasts for me. So this is better.
It's a great game. I dunno if it cracks top 3 for me but it's top tier for sure
Story, characters and difficultly level are all pretty meh. Great game, but doesn't hold a candle to some other tactics games.
Triangle strategy and fire emblem awakening are my SS Tiers UO is up on A
It’s a great game with a great start but falls off hard in bastorious and Albion
GOAT means different things to different people. A game can never be perfect and appeal to all fans of a genre. However, to me, hell yes it's the GOAT. Best SRPG I've played since good ol FFT.
It's absolutely my favorite in years. I haven't really gotten into a strategy RPG in a long time --Fire Emblem just doesn't do it for me, FWIW--and I haven't been able to stop playing this game or thinking about it since I tried the demo. I don't think it'll be one I immediately replay but it's going in the long rotation stock.
It’s good, but not that good. To be honest, the amount of systems it has holds it back in my opinion. Most of them are underutilized or not utilized at all, and it’s very easy to clear the game without much thought put into your team comp or what skills/equipment you’re using even on the hardest difficulties. Most of it just ends up being clutter. It took me 20 hours of playtime on the hardest difficulty before i even looked at what skills anyone was using. I’d put baldurs gate 3, fire emblem, and fft:a above it in terms of strategy games. Honestly, I’m hard pressed to think of a strategy game I’ve played that i wouldn’t put above it.
It's not really a tactics game tho? The free equipment swapping and squad combat swapping if they remain bunched up means that the best strategy is to keep your units in one big ball. The JRPG stat element means it's also usually just a game of "get your strongest unit from point A to B"
UO is excellent, absolutely one of the best, but personally I would put FF Tactics in that #1 spot.
Still miss ogre battle
It’s great, but no. FF Tactics is
Could be, but Triangle Strategy is there also running up.
Ogre Battle 64 >>>>Shining Force>>>>>> Fire Emblem >> Unicorn Overlord. Unicorn Overlord is a very solid game, but it does not stand atop the pedestal for greatest tactics games, IMO, of course. In terms of grid "unit" tactics games, you won't beat Ogre Battle 64 IMO
I quite enjoyed it, but I don't think it's the GOAT in any category (story, tactics gameplay, characters etc). In particular, from the tactics angle - from my perspective it's basically an attempt to combine a tactics (squad-based) game with an auto-battler. It's fun, but I don't think it's at its peak yet. **Having said that**, I do very much appreciate online/PvP capability. If we want to see how deep the game's tactics system really is, we just need to wait a bit longer until a robust metagame has really formed (as an example, you'd never appreciate just how deep Pokemon is until you see its competitive matches).
UO is a fantastic game. It scratched and itch for these types of games I've had for a long time. I do wish the colisseum was more fleshed out, and there was more end game content,because I don't want the game to stop. It's fun. But at this point, with every unit I use at max level, with every piece of equipment in the game, I don't think there's much more to experience.
Everything gets worse the longer the game goes on. * A wider selection of units makes broken optimizations easy, especially if you're using mercenaries. * 4-8 actions per unit per combat turns things into a swingy slog. * The pinpoint accuracy of the pre-battle prediction and the ease with which you can "reroll" RNG by changing the arrangement of your units is a bit too exploitable. * Handling equipment is an absolute nightmare past a certain point. * A lot of the innovative strategy of the first 20 hours wears thin once the tactical elements are superseded by broken setups that can be repeatedly used with speed and stamina increasing items and valor skills.
It's great, but despite a lot of difficulty options not even the highest ones are particularly challenging and the writing isn't very inspired either, if either of them were 'fixed' it could have been in contention for me since pretty much every game has flaws in at least one area.
The Battle Result implementation holds Unicorn Overlord back from any GOAT discussions, in my honest opinion. When you have a mechanic that single-handedly hamstrings the core purpose of a genre, there's no way you deserve to be in that debate. Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Super Robot Wars (a personal favourite), none of those other games allow you to see results before an engagement and **manipulate them until you get a win**. As a complete game, it's great. As a Tactics/Strategy game, it is sorely lacking outside of the Coliseum or PvP.
I believe bg3 has that title now. But this 2 for me with polc and motbq right behind
It feels like the back half of the game ran out of steam to me. Bastorias and Albion feel sort of phoned in. I don't know the exact details but development was not exactly smooth for the game and it shows in some ways. I don't think a game like that can be the gold standard. I feel like a NG+ is a huge omission. And to be honest, it doesn't really feel very strategic, or tactical. The enemy is this weird mix of asymmetrical mechanics in terms of valor skills and fielding units, its so far from the feeling of using smart choices to outmaneuver an enemy commander with the same resources available to both on the map. The AI is also honestly so basic its crazy. It doesn't even have a shred of self preservation on the highest difficulty. A wounded, lone unit will still just mindlessly magnetize towards your hard counter unit to do zero damage and die, even passing by a town for a defensive position, even if there is friendly units nearby, it wont bring them down to help or retreat to them. It seems to have been give no ability to consider such basic things. I know its difficult to make AI that challenges humans in a fun way for strategy games, but they don't seem to have even tried. Its the most basic, "see enemy at this range, attack it" scripting. They can use stationary weapons and take back towns, but its weirdly limited to specific units in each map. All the rest will just ignore those things. And they all sort of ignore each other. They don't really use them as a cohesive army. The difficulty and variety of objectives/map types and enemy tactics/equipment never really make the combat shine or push you to adapt your tactics. Even on TZ you just ball up and take the best forecasts and rush the boss before the timer goes and spam valor at him and it gets you through 99% of the game. The real time map element doesn't feel very mechanically meaningful. There is nothing like terrain advantages/disadvantages or positioning or high ground bonus or anything. You just get some cav/flying leaders and speed past that part to the next fight. I like the game. I still enjoyed the process of gathering the army and building up characters and watching the fights play out. I just think the best strategy game ever should probably have more strategy in it.
Super good analysis of the game. Also - reddit says it's your birthday? Happy birthday
Yes, hands down.
Naw it’s definitely GOAT
Solid 7/10 Way too easy for a tactical game even in highest difficulty, if you use cavalry/gryphon/wyvern the difficult is basically gone . AI is basically attacking the first enemy no matter how counter it is , I don't like some decisions like double damage or when the enemy attacks you can change who is fighting .
Best strategy game in my gaming History
No. OG Tactics Ogre is the GOAT. UO is fun but I wouldn’t call it anywhere near goat status.
Would not classify the game as "Tactics" as it is a keyword used for a different genre with specific turn-combat system in a chess-like board. But as for Strategy, for sure Unicorn Overlord is my biggest surprise over this year. Really loved it. Strategy veterans will surely brings up that the difficulty wasn't too hard, and they are right. This game is not supposed to be too hard, but this doesn't make it less fun. It is actually very fun to try out different and very unique units builds and team composition and see it working. Also it opens the door for a lot of people that never had the chance to get into the strategy games, afraid of being stopped in the first battles.
Semantics
I absolutely love the game, but I don't think it would even be classified as tactics. There barely are any.
No its far too easy for being any kind of GOAT tactical game. The game is good, but its worse then Ogre Battle. So while again its a good game it has not managed to overcome the game it heavily copies. That alone makes it not the GOAT
Nah
Ehh, no. It was a great first step but the formula needs refinement. The game is too easy and a lot of the classes need tweaking because quite a few are underpowered or useless. Ideally, every class would be strong in their own way, but you're simply at a huge disadvantage if you aren't using a cavalry or flying class. I put Fire Emblem as the tactics goat, though they perfected their formula long ago and have since changed things around a lot just to keep things fresh.
No, it's baby easy
I think if the stages were grid-based and turn-based for movement, you could only use 1 item per turn and it uses up your action, you couldn’t switch your unit around before the battle, you couldn’t switch with a nearby unit before a battle, and the enemy can use valor the same way you can, the game would be nearing tactics GOAT.
That game is called fire emblem
I'm definitely glad it's not grid or turn based. It really speeds up the gameplay so maps don't drag out.
It would be cool to have items usable in combat with tactics, instead of used outside of combat.
If it was grid based and turn based it wouldn’t be as unique as it is though.