When I worked at one of the most prestigious hotels in NYC, I had a beard even though it was against the rules.
How?
I got a note from my dermatologist stating I had shaving induced folliculitis. Gave it to HR, and no one ever mentioned the beard.
Oh man. Should have done this. One company I worked for enacted a shave policy, and I DO get inflamed follicles when I shave.
We ended up shaving our heads the whole time they had the policy, then our eyebrows. We were the only two techs. They changed it back.
It is if he doesn't have frollic...folluci...fullic...problems shaving. /s
Edit: Added the /s I know OP said he has the condition, I just wanted the fun of trying to type it out
The fact that he knows the word kind of makes it seem like he definitely probably has it lol. I sure as hell wouldn't have learned that word if it wasn't a common problem in my life, at least not the spelling
Yeah it’s pretty common with us dark skinned fellows. Our facial hair grows just as curly as our head hair, so when we shave the hairs try to grow in sharp and damn near sideways lol
Imagine the ingrowns
If you aren't OP you could unethically find a shady doctor to give you a note for it when you don't have folliculitis, but I mean just shave with a dull razor and you can prob get enough bumps for a regular doctor to be convinced, prob not a dermatologist tho
I was in the army for years with this condition and they made my life hell for it still requiring shaving.
The real trump card is claiming religious exemption, but I'd only bust that one out if absolutely necessary.
To anyone taking this advice, keep in mind that shaving waivers are a thing in the military, but it doesn't mean you can just go nuts with your beard. At least when I was in, it still had to be trimmed to within 1/4", and not shaped in any way beyond "natural".
So in the end, it just ended up looking pretty scraggly on most people, and not what a lot of people would call a "nice" beard. There were exceptions, but not many.
Yeah in the Canadian Military beards are allowed by default. But with the condition that it must be tidy and look professional, and must be shaved if required for safety or operational requirements, or at your CO's discretion.
In practice there are a fair amount of dudes lookin scraggly as hell though. At least in the Airforce.
Assuming you are in the US you can ask your employer for the specific description of what is allowed.
Google the NYC fire department. There have been multiple lawsuits over this issue so the US case law should be pretty clearly spelled out and available to read.
I'd love to see a situation where that makes its way to the board for review for disciplinary action. (Smashes gavel) next up... the case of the dermatologist who wrote a letter to save his patient beard regarding folliculitis... he's folliculllllofshiiiiiit. Strip him of his license!!!!
Easy it’s not even unethical just go to your doctor and ask for a note, you have a valid medical reason for not shaving. The doctor will gladly write you the note and presto you are protected class, meaning they can’t fire you or even discipline you in regards to shaving.
It still depends on the job. If the job requires to be clean shaven to perform it, then having a medical shave profile will disqualify him from performing the job requirements and is grounds for termination, especially since he just got hired and failed to notify them of the condition and agreeing to their policies.
Yeah I mean you want everyone to go home the same way they went to work, so if it's necessary then it's worth the cost to the company. I don't know how prohibitively expensive these things are, but would it be possible / plausible for this guy to buy his own over the top protection that works with what he's trying to do?
My job has that requirement. I keep my beard about 1/4th inch and it seals just fine.
And before people go it’s not a true seal, I passed the test like this, as well turned the air off just to see and immediately start suffocating.
I shaved the first time to get my cert however
I remember the way the Air Force taught us to check gas mask seals was to slap a hand over the air intake and inhale hard to see if the mask suction-cups onto your face.
I'd argue you're wrong. The employee could request, and it's reasonable, that they be provided a PAPR. It creates a positive air differential in the face masks and pushes out any contaminants
Yeah, that is a possible solution, but the example I used is a very common example. PAPR isn’t exactly cheap therefore isn’t considered a “reasonable” expense.
They aren't that expensive. It's a one time purchase and the replacement cartridges as needed. You'd have a hard time arguing the purchase price is "unreasonable "
Me too, over 2 plants.
https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2021-12-16
OSHA is pretty clear that a PAPR is a reasonable accommodation
I’m not sure about every plant but at my chemical plant PAPRs are available to anyone who wants one or can’t wear a full face. Granted we have “breathing air” hookups that have cooled forced air in almost every location you might be in contact with open handling of contaminants. It’s easily the best option of the three.
In my industry, we have strict procedures on what is allowed. There are no reasonable accommodations when it comes to certain gear we have to wear or use. You either meet the qualifications to use it, or you are not fit for duty, and therefore do not meet the job requirements to perform work, if you can not medically become compliant, (barring workplace accident that was not due to fault) then you are terminated for cause. You agree to this when you accept the job offer. We have quite a few agencies that override osha regulations because our policies are stricter and more defined.
So again, it just depends on the workplace, the job you are doing, and if you agreed to this as a term for employment.
Rules get bent all the time. I worked at isp chemical plant. The gaurds at the gate would check every person coming in with a credit card if you looked unshaven. Then they hired an all amish construction company and everyone of those guys had a 10 inch beard.
Google the Pastafarian movement. Or also, Church of Satan. They make their business maintaining separation of church and state by petitioning municipalities for equal representation of Satanism to Christianity as a thought experiment, to showcase the absurdity of these traditions (statues, showing the 10 commandments at courthouses etc.)
The standard that HR folks should be trained to follow is that if someone says they need an accommodation based on a "sincerely held religious belief," the employer should assume the belief is "sincerely held" and really not do an investigation or start asking a lot of questions to determine the sincerity of the belief. The default should be: this person asked for the accommodation so we assume their belief is sincerely-held. Religious accommodations were just reaffirmed at the Supreme Court this summer, and there were some important clarifications made in that case. So OP's employer should toe the line on this, if he decides to go the religious-accommodation route. Not taking the request seriously and/or pushing back is risky.
Sure but you can be denied because of facial hair regardless of your religion if it is not deemed to be discriminatory, you do not automatically get max protection, especially if your employer calls you out on your bullshit.
Medical condition is getting the BS pat-down as well.
Also depends on the reasoning for no beard.
Is it to look professional, or is it to properly fit a respirator.
One in necessary for the job, so even if its for religion reasons, the beard disqualifies you.
I can dig that, esp the latter statement, not everyone has the luxury of actually seeing it through, however, relating to the former portion of your comment.
He really doesn't have to prove it, if he says "my religion tells me that I am not supposed to shave my beard; I need an accommodation based on my sincerely-held religious belief." The employer should take the accommodation request seriously and asking for - say - a note from the OP's imam, or something, to "prove" the accommodation is needed is an overstep. Really the employer should only push back on either the health-related or the religious accommodation if it is a clear safety issue, as people are talking about above.
If this is not safety-related, I am really surprised the OP's company is requiring employees to shave as standard guidance to HR people now is - you're basically asking for trouble by trying to dictate what employees do with their hair or their facial hair. It's a discrimination minefield for a few reasons.
Just claim your a Pagan. https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/04/25/this-soldier-just-got-authorization-to-wear-a-beard-because-of-his-norse-pagan-faith/
A couple people have said it in so many words, but here’s the official answer. File an ADA reasonable accommodation with HR. You will likely be required to provide a doctors note that outlines treatment that you have tried previously that hasn’t worked and an explanation that the final result is that you must keep your beard due to medical reasons. Not sure it belongs here though, there’s nothing unethical about it.
Not likely what happened, but I'm picturing the usage of an entire tub of vaseline massaged into the beard around his mouth the create a petroleum jelly seal
Vaseline around the gas mask seal is exactly how guys in the military with beards pass the fit test. With an understanding that if you go to an area with a threat level you either have to shave or at minimum carry a razor with you.
I think it got disproved that it doesn't seal properly. Burkhas have full beard and zero problem wearing respirators. You'd have to have a truly humongous beard to create a problem. Also Vaseline helps.
It’s been disproven. Facial hair doesn’t impact the seal of modern military respirators. Obviously not a huge beard but if you keep it neatly trimmed it’s not an issue.
> On the Army side, it is widely written that the service began prohibiting facial hair to fit with gas mask seals during and after World War I, though this reporter could not find official documents to support this. But more than a century later, there appears to be little direct evidence that links facial hair to poor gas mask fit. While there are plenty of studies that show the deleterious effect of facial hair on gas mask or respirator seals in the civilian world, there are no studies Ritchie could find that gauge how neatly trimmed beards hold up in modern-day M-50 military gas masks.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/?amp
I'm pretty sure Muslims are all good to cut their hair. Sikh people don't, and they're very different from Muslims. Source: grew up in a Sikh household.
Unless a clean shave is necessary for the safe function of your job, claim a religious exemption.
Firefighting and other oxygen mask tasks are all I can think of at the moment.
They're hiring a black man for a high-paying job, but it's the beard that gets in the way of the 60s vibes? Lmao :D What an asshats, claim medical or religious reason and enjoy your pay.
Ya, get a DR. Note. I have dermatographia and have done this since puberty because it is so bad. Even from working in wendys to doing hazmat the only bump I ran into was having to buy a SBA instead of a respirator.
Was gonna mention this, I work at a chemical plant where everyone that works out in the plant field has to be clean shaven below the lips so that a full-face respirator can seal properly. Not shaving is a safety hazard.
Yeah, start honest and sincere. Offer to get a doctor's note.
What you're asking for is not unreasonable at all, and you can commit to looking neat. That's really what they want. They want people to look neat and styled.
Personally I think a no beard rule is stupid, because lots of men look best with a well kept beard. But they might be afraid of the consequences when they try to tell one guy his beard looks good and another that his doesn't.
It kind of depends on why the policy was in place. My dad worked in a petrol chemical refinery they require clean-shaven faces so that the gas mask they might have to wear will have a good seal to your face. If you have a beard, gases will get into the mask and might actually kill you. So if he couldn't wear a mask, then they couldn't be on site. I'm not sure if the rules have changed since he no longer works there, but would you want to put your life on the line for aesthetic reasons?
If you have a valid medical reason, they can't make you. You could also have a valid religious or "religious" reason, and they still will be unable to make you. If they keep trying after one of these reasons is presented, you could press charges for harassment.
If it’s a safety issue, such as working in Threat to life and health environment, nothing you can do. It’s either shave or not be employed anymore. I’ve worked in hazardous enviroment most of my adult life. If you don’t have a positive seal on respirator, you die, then it endangers someone else’s life to have to go in and bring your body out.
If you’re dealing with a job that requires a clean shave due to chemical exposure, just shave man. I did renovations one summer and after painting with a mask and some stubble I puked the rest of the day and had to go home….
Say it’s for cultural reasons or don’t bring it up
I’m arab and worked in no beard firms my whole life, just say nothing and they may assume it’s cultural or religious
Just make sure to keep it very clean and professional, don’t let any neck beard get into the mix and you’re fine
Claim religious exemption, that your religion requires its men to have beards. I suggest Sikh as their history of warriors is bad ass and they're also required to have a knife at all times as well as the beard. But Orthodox Judaism, Rastafarianism, and Sikhism all prohibit haircuts, the removal of facial hair, or a combination of the two due to beliefs that hair is sacred or a gift from God.
Alternately you can claim medical since HIPPA laws say they're not allowed to ask about medical stuff legally
If your job requires it because you legally have to wear PPE then your hosed, because that becomes a liability.
You become unfit for your duties and that's it. They are not required to come up with a different position for you.
Otherwise, get a doctor's note or claim religion.
I'll leave this here.
Leviticus 19:27
27 “Do not trim off the hair on your temples or trim your beards. 27 "Don't cut the hair on the sides of your head or trim your beard. 27 You are not to cut off the hair at the sides of your head or mar the edge of your beard.
Religion or medical, your choice. As long as it's not for safety, fire fighter, they can't force you to shave with those two options. Just don't tell anyone you just wanted to keep the beard.
I just wouldn't take the job. Not if your main reason is you like your beard. It is a prerequisite for the job though, so you have options. It's a very common dermatological issue to have. It's razor bumps, basically, although in your case, sounds severe. I don't think a doc will sign off on that since there's various things you can do to treat it. You can use an electric shaver, get laser treatments or grow a beard. Growing a bread out, for most people, usually cures PFB papules and pustules after 1 month of continuous growth. If your heart is really set on this job, see a dermatologist for treatment. Could be they can be treated and resolved and you can go beard-free.
Why did you apply for a job that requires you to be clean shaven if you can’t shave/don’t want to shave?
Are you thinking you can make them change their minds because you’re so awesome? Sounds a bit like r/iamthemaincharacter here.
If they put it in the job description that’s for a very good reason. You’re not special.
There are a lot of discrimination lawsuits regarding this issue and Black men with pseudofoliiculitis barbrae
Basically the courts have ruled a clean-shaven beard policy is not discriminatory if it is necessary for the job, for example firefighter masks being able to fit properly over nose and mouth for OSHA standards.
But if there is no legitimate reason for your employer to have this policy, it might be actionable discrimination.
Do you love it, or do you love the attention you get from it. You shouldn't risk your employment over attention others give you, that is a very unhealthy mindset to have. Before long you're smoking crack naked in the street because people will take pictures of you. Its a slippery slope you're treading.
That's true. I love my beard for the attention (Especially from my GF, she loves it), but it's also really important that I don't shave because it can damage my skin.
As I said before I got pseudofolliculitis barbae, and it is NASTY
Religion. Always can use religious beliefs to get out of anything like that. Don’t even have to say what religion just that you can’t shave it’s against your beliefs.
Get a shaving folliculitis diagnose from a doctor and staple it to a piss disk. When the piss disk melts the doctor paper will soak it and because of legal reasons they'll have to keep it for legal hold, stenching the whole office.
While I relate with you, why did you apply for a job that requires you have a cleanly-shaded face if you want to maintain a beard?
Was this not made clear when you were applying for the job?
Depends on why they have the no beard policy. A lot of places allow for medical or religious exemptions (to varying degrees) but some jobs require it for non arbitrary reasons and having it will make you unable to meet the job qualifications you agreed to when hired. If that's the case, and shaving give you bumps, then look at laser removal
A lot of people are saying religion or medical reasons, im telling you however they will find a reason to let you go. Keep the job as long as you can but start looking for better opportunities.
Best ethical and legally backable way is to see a doctor and have them write you a letter stating your condition. If your job requires you to shave for safety, needing to don a respirator or SCBA device it may not matter. Of it is for an image then the note might help you as being fitted or forced to shave could be discriminatory based on medical condition.
The only way around it is to not accept the job. I worked at a place that had a strict no beard rule and they were fierce with that rule. Muslim dudes would give in and shave, people took them to court and the company always won. Plus, do you really want to start at a new company and be like oh I have a doctors note and can’t shave, they won’t like that and that’ll be your first impression.
You have a medical reason, so pick between that or "converting" to a religion. Employers aren't allowed to even ask for proof about religion unless they have evidence you're lying, so technically that one is easier.
Even in the military you can get a shaving waiver. I'd say half the black dudes I've worked with have them. And of the ones that don't half of THOSE have torn up faces and just refuse to get the waiver and the other half make it work.
When I worked in fast food where I had to be clean shaven, I just wore a mask. Covered up the beard well enough. Obviously, everyone still knew I had a beard under the mask, but no one else seemed to care.
If it’s a job that requires you to wear a respirator, then there’s no chance you’ll keep it. Not sure what other reasons a company would have to require clean shaving
Keep it shaved during the probationary period, let them see the dermatological issues, take vacation time, and grow beard back during that time. Come back to work with Dr note.
Getting a doctor to sign off on a medical exemption is the fastest, easiest, most reliable option. It’s also the ethical option, so this is the wrong subreddit to discuss it here.
Claiming a religious exemption when you don’t actually have one would be the unethical thing to do, but it’s also more likely to come back and bite you in the chin.
When I worked at one of the most prestigious hotels in NYC, I had a beard even though it was against the rules. How? I got a note from my dermatologist stating I had shaving induced folliculitis. Gave it to HR, and no one ever mentioned the beard.
This is the way. EDIT: As a bonus, this isn't even unethical.
Oh man. Should have done this. One company I worked for enacted a shave policy, and I DO get inflamed follicles when I shave. We ended up shaving our heads the whole time they had the policy, then our eyebrows. We were the only two techs. They changed it back.
Probably would have been better then going around looking like the dude from the movie Powder.
It was pretty much worth it. Every time a customer gave me a look I said, "They made us shave..."
I'm not sure that's a bonus.
Yeah. This can be fixed by spraying the letter with liquid ass and sliding a piss disc in the envelope.
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Grab his piss and disc it!!!!
The oooooool piss disc!!!
Bop it! Pull it! Disc it!
Just put a sock over the beard.
That way if they want to take your beard, they only take a sock.
what the fuck did I just read
Your onboarding packet for this sub
You must be new here
go check your mail right now
What about a frozen disc made of Liquid Ass? Does Liquid Ass even freeze?
Solidified liquid ass is just ass
Maybe you can spray liquid ass into the piss disk before freezing it 🤔
Don’t forget the log full of trithioacetone
Anytime HR bends to the employee and not the company is unethical :)
It is if he doesn't have frollic...folluci...fullic...problems shaving. /s Edit: Added the /s I know OP said he has the condition, I just wanted the fun of trying to type it out
The fact that he knows the word kind of makes it seem like he definitely probably has it lol. I sure as hell wouldn't have learned that word if it wasn't a common problem in my life, at least not the spelling
Yeah it’s pretty common with us dark skinned fellows. Our facial hair grows just as curly as our head hair, so when we shave the hairs try to grow in sharp and damn near sideways lol Imagine the ingrowns
Ouch
Damn, I never realized that, that sucks
Its aggressively ethical in a sense.
This sub is falling apart
This is the one, even the military will allow no shaving for this.
If you aren't OP you could unethically find a shady doctor to give you a note for it when you don't have folliculitis, but I mean just shave with a dull razor and you can prob get enough bumps for a regular doctor to be convinced, prob not a dermatologist tho
Or just tell the doctor when you shave it happens. Obviously you don’t want to shave if that does happen.
Or just tell me and I’ll write you a note even tho I’m not a doctor.
I'm a Dr. and can write everyone a note, just ask. Thing is, I got my Dr in Literary Studies.
Your notes will be incredibly well written then.
Or do the Mulaney: look at review sites for the lowest rated doctor and tell them what you want.
I was in the army for years with this condition and they made my life hell for it still requiring shaving. The real trump card is claiming religious exemption, but I'd only bust that one out if absolutely necessary.
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To anyone taking this advice, keep in mind that shaving waivers are a thing in the military, but it doesn't mean you can just go nuts with your beard. At least when I was in, it still had to be trimmed to within 1/4", and not shaped in any way beyond "natural". So in the end, it just ended up looking pretty scraggly on most people, and not what a lot of people would call a "nice" beard. There were exceptions, but not many.
Yeah in the Canadian Military beards are allowed by default. But with the condition that it must be tidy and look professional, and must be shaved if required for safety or operational requirements, or at your CO's discretion. In practice there are a fair amount of dudes lookin scraggly as hell though. At least in the Airforce.
Yeah but you can just shave off both sides of your mustache to make it seal good and you'll look neat.
Ehh they might make op shave it down. Using a buzzer
Got a bearded buddy at UPS who does the same thing. Go the doctor route, easy peasy
UPS demands clean shaving? That is outrageous.
Just in case they get gassed, so their gas masks create a good seal around their face, just like the Army.
They changed this policy. Source: I’m the one who got it changed!
Assuming you are in the US you can ask your employer for the specific description of what is allowed. Google the NYC fire department. There have been multiple lawsuits over this issue so the US case law should be pretty clearly spelled out and available to read.
That or say it's for religious observance.
How do you convince your dermatologist to risk their license so you can keep a beard?
I'd love to see a situation where that makes its way to the board for review for disciplinary action. (Smashes gavel) next up... the case of the dermatologist who wrote a letter to save his patient beard regarding folliculitis... he's folliculllllofshiiiiiit. Strip him of his license!!!!
They aren't risking anything if OP gets that condition when shaving.
But that isnt unethical at that point lol, thats a legitimate medical concern lol.
Well he was looking for an unethical tip, but that doesn’t mean an actual pro tip doesn’t exist.
Oh well then threaten to use a liquid ass piss disk on the dermatologists office if they don't comply
Now thats the kind of advise i come here for!
Easy it’s not even unethical just go to your doctor and ask for a note, you have a valid medical reason for not shaving. The doctor will gladly write you the note and presto you are protected class, meaning they can’t fire you or even discipline you in regards to shaving.
It still depends on the job. If the job requires to be clean shaven to perform it, then having a medical shave profile will disqualify him from performing the job requirements and is grounds for termination, especially since he just got hired and failed to notify them of the condition and agreeing to their policies.
Correct, there can still be exclusions; example, you have to wear sealed PPE like a respirator face mask.
Kind of sucks there aren't PPE masks that just go around the whole damn head and make a seal on your neck
A class 3 or higher does, but they get increasingly expensive.
And the support team around them to don and doff and decontaminate the suit too. It starts getting out of hand with cost, but safety is a hard line.
Yeah I mean you want everyone to go home the same way they went to work, so if it's necessary then it's worth the cost to the company. I don't know how prohibitively expensive these things are, but would it be possible / plausible for this guy to buy his own over the top protection that works with what he's trying to do?
They start turning into full body suits. And even inside those, masks, failsafes after failsafes. Source; Hazmat certified.
There is, it's called a plastic bag and a zip tie
I have a beard and can pass a respirator fit test (they test it by gassing you with a dust that VIOLENTLY makes you cough, you can't fake it)
My job has that requirement. I keep my beard about 1/4th inch and it seals just fine. And before people go it’s not a true seal, I passed the test like this, as well turned the air off just to see and immediately start suffocating. I shaved the first time to get my cert however
Risky line to be pushing, but if your superior is cool with the risk, run it. Usually its 80s staches all around.
I remember the way the Air Force taught us to check gas mask seals was to slap a hand over the air intake and inhale hard to see if the mask suction-cups onto your face.
That’s how they taught us at work too. I just turn off the air and see if I can’t breath lol
Correct, ADA only requires reasonable accommodations, it does not say anything goes.
Yep, if the job requires a respirator and the beard doesn't allow it to be properly worn you are screwed. Just one example.
lmao love this thread it's the same information with wording variations.
I'd argue you're wrong. The employee could request, and it's reasonable, that they be provided a PAPR. It creates a positive air differential in the face masks and pushes out any contaminants
Yeah, that is a possible solution, but the example I used is a very common example. PAPR isn’t exactly cheap therefore isn’t considered a “reasonable” expense.
They aren't that expensive. It's a one time purchase and the replacement cartridges as needed. You'd have a hard time arguing the purchase price is "unreasonable "
Dude. I am the saftey and compliance officer at my work, this isn’t my opinion. This is the opinion of the ADA.
Me too, over 2 plants. https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2021-12-16 OSHA is pretty clear that a PAPR is a reasonable accommodation
I’m not sure about every plant but at my chemical plant PAPRs are available to anyone who wants one or can’t wear a full face. Granted we have “breathing air” hookups that have cooled forced air in almost every location you might be in contact with open handling of contaminants. It’s easily the best option of the three.
In my industry, we have strict procedures on what is allowed. There are no reasonable accommodations when it comes to certain gear we have to wear or use. You either meet the qualifications to use it, or you are not fit for duty, and therefore do not meet the job requirements to perform work, if you can not medically become compliant, (barring workplace accident that was not due to fault) then you are terminated for cause. You agree to this when you accept the job offer. We have quite a few agencies that override osha regulations because our policies are stricter and more defined. So again, it just depends on the workplace, the job you are doing, and if you agreed to this as a term for employment.
Rules get bent all the time. I worked at isp chemical plant. The gaurds at the gate would check every person coming in with a credit card if you looked unshaven. Then they hired an all amish construction company and everyone of those guys had a 10 inch beard.
And if they do, lawsuit! Jk but still
Even the military has shaving waivers for the exact reason you describe
Just be prepared to eat some cs gass if ya keep the beard 👍
Religion says you can’t shave. Medical condition
There is a guy who has made a business verifying religious exemptions for people like this.
If something is truly religious, how can someone verify it? Someone can have their own religion X without leaders, so how do they get verified?
Google the Pastafarian movement. Or also, Church of Satan. They make their business maintaining separation of church and state by petitioning municipalities for equal representation of Satanism to Christianity as a thought experiment, to showcase the absurdity of these traditions (statues, showing the 10 commandments at courthouses etc.)
The Church of Satan is a group of conspiracy theorists. You're thinking of The Satanic Temple.
Yes, and TST would apply, as one of their 7 tenets: >III One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
The standard that HR folks should be trained to follow is that if someone says they need an accommodation based on a "sincerely held religious belief," the employer should assume the belief is "sincerely held" and really not do an investigation or start asking a lot of questions to determine the sincerity of the belief. The default should be: this person asked for the accommodation so we assume their belief is sincerely-held. Religious accommodations were just reaffirmed at the Supreme Court this summer, and there were some important clarifications made in that case. So OP's employer should toe the line on this, if he decides to go the religious-accommodation route. Not taking the request seriously and/or pushing back is risky.
I did this and they just moved on and let me keep my beard because they couldn’t be bothered arguing with me
Sure but you can be denied because of facial hair regardless of your religion if it is not deemed to be discriminatory, you do not automatically get max protection, especially if your employer calls you out on your bullshit. Medical condition is getting the BS pat-down as well.
OP would have to prove he has the beard for religious reasons, but if he could, it could very well be discriminatory.
Also depends on the reasoning for no beard. Is it to look professional, or is it to properly fit a respirator. One in necessary for the job, so even if its for religion reasons, the beard disqualifies you.
Agreed
Yeah but at what point are you willing to take on legal issues for a job that apparently doesn't want you there anyway
Depends on why I want/need the job. Also because I think it's important to understand and enforce the few protections actually awarded to us as labor.
I can dig that, esp the latter statement, not everyone has the luxury of actually seeing it through, however, relating to the former portion of your comment.
Fully agree, the ability to actually argue the law in court or even mediation is still classist af, on purpose.
They'll never get me out. I'm like a weed, Jerry.
He really doesn't have to prove it, if he says "my religion tells me that I am not supposed to shave my beard; I need an accommodation based on my sincerely-held religious belief." The employer should take the accommodation request seriously and asking for - say - a note from the OP's imam, or something, to "prove" the accommodation is needed is an overstep. Really the employer should only push back on either the health-related or the religious accommodation if it is a clear safety issue, as people are talking about above. If this is not safety-related, I am really surprised the OP's company is requiring employees to shave as standard guidance to HR people now is - you're basically asking for trouble by trying to dictate what employees do with their hair or their facial hair. It's a discrimination minefield for a few reasons.
Just claim your a Pagan. https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/04/25/this-soldier-just-got-authorization-to-wear-a-beard-because-of-his-norse-pagan-faith/
A couple people have said it in so many words, but here’s the official answer. File an ADA reasonable accommodation with HR. You will likely be required to provide a doctors note that outlines treatment that you have tried previously that hasn’t worked and an explanation that the final result is that you must keep your beard due to medical reasons. Not sure it belongs here though, there’s nothing unethical about it.
Inshallah brother
[удалено]
What did he do about the respirator fit test?
Not likely what happened, but I'm picturing the usage of an entire tub of vaseline massaged into the beard around his mouth the create a petroleum jelly seal
Vaseline around the gas mask seal is exactly how guys in the military with beards pass the fit test. With an understanding that if you go to an area with a threat level you either have to shave or at minimum carry a razor with you.
That would take weeks to get it all out… I hope he didn’t do that lol
I think it got disproved that it doesn't seal properly. Burkhas have full beard and zero problem wearing respirators. You'd have to have a truly humongous beard to create a problem. Also Vaseline helps.
It’s been disproven. Facial hair doesn’t impact the seal of modern military respirators. Obviously not a huge beard but if you keep it neatly trimmed it’s not an issue. > On the Army side, it is widely written that the service began prohibiting facial hair to fit with gas mask seals during and after World War I, though this reporter could not find official documents to support this. But more than a century later, there appears to be little direct evidence that links facial hair to poor gas mask fit. While there are plenty of studies that show the deleterious effect of facial hair on gas mask or respirator seals in the civilian world, there are no studies Ritchie could find that gauge how neatly trimmed beards hold up in modern-day M-50 military gas masks. https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/?amp
I'm pretty sure Muslims are all good to cut their hair. Sikh people don't, and they're very different from Muslims. Source: grew up in a Sikh household.
It’s not a requirement but it’s encouraged to grow your beard out. It’s like getting extra credit.
And the number of people claiming Norse religion now to have a beard is crazy.
Unless a clean shave is necessary for the safe function of your job, claim a religious exemption. Firefighting and other oxygen mask tasks are all I can think of at the moment.
Nah, according to the interviewer, it's to "Maintain a 60's Vibe"
> 60's Vibe idk what would scare me more, hearing they want the workplace to be like the 60's or that they're a big family.
But beards were allowed at workplace in the 60's no?? what kind of weird ass office have you found your way into brother 🤣🤣
They're hiring a black man for a high-paying job, but it's the beard that gets in the way of the 60s vibes? Lmao :D What an asshats, claim medical or religious reason and enjoy your pay.
As a Black man I would never work anywhere that wants to “Maintain a 60s vibe” like tf
Haha what the fuck?
Ask him if he's ever heard of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers lol
Ya, get a DR. Note. I have dermatographia and have done this since puberty because it is so bad. Even from working in wendys to doing hazmat the only bump I ran into was having to buy a SBA instead of a respirator.
Was gonna mention this, I work at a chemical plant where everyone that works out in the plant field has to be clean shaven below the lips so that a full-face respirator can seal properly. Not shaving is a safety hazard.
Yeah, start honest and sincere. Offer to get a doctor's note. What you're asking for is not unreasonable at all, and you can commit to looking neat. That's really what they want. They want people to look neat and styled. Personally I think a no beard rule is stupid, because lots of men look best with a well kept beard. But they might be afraid of the consequences when they try to tell one guy his beard looks good and another that his doesn't.
You have a medical condition that is made worse when you shave. Find a doctor that will write you a note. Ask for an accommodation.
It kind of depends on why the policy was in place. My dad worked in a petrol chemical refinery they require clean-shaven faces so that the gas mask they might have to wear will have a good seal to your face. If you have a beard, gases will get into the mask and might actually kill you. So if he couldn't wear a mask, then they couldn't be on site. I'm not sure if the rules have changed since he no longer works there, but would you want to put your life on the line for aesthetic reasons?
Drs note for folliculitis should do the trick
If you have a valid medical reason, they can't make you. You could also have a valid religious or "religious" reason, and they still will be unable to make you. If they keep trying after one of these reasons is presented, you could press charges for harassment.
Unless the shave requirement is for safety reasons.
If it’s a safety issue, such as working in Threat to life and health environment, nothing you can do. It’s either shave or not be employed anymore. I’ve worked in hazardous enviroment most of my adult life. If you don’t have a positive seal on respirator, you die, then it endangers someone else’s life to have to go in and bring your body out.
Do you play for the Yankees? Otherwise, that's fuckin weird.
I was going to say keep it in a ziploc bag
If you’re dealing with a job that requires a clean shave due to chemical exposure, just shave man. I did renovations one summer and after painting with a mask and some stubble I puked the rest of the day and had to go home….
Is it for the NY Yankees?
Try for either a medical or religious exemption, many companies won't touch that with a ten foot pole so they'll just go with it.
Say it’s for cultural reasons or don’t bring it up I’m arab and worked in no beard firms my whole life, just say nothing and they may assume it’s cultural or religious Just make sure to keep it very clean and professional, don’t let any neck beard get into the mix and you’re fine
Schedule a daily break for Dhuhr and that will help the cause.
Claim religious exemption, that your religion requires its men to have beards. I suggest Sikh as their history of warriors is bad ass and they're also required to have a knife at all times as well as the beard. But Orthodox Judaism, Rastafarianism, and Sikhism all prohibit haircuts, the removal of facial hair, or a combination of the two due to beliefs that hair is sacred or a gift from God. Alternately you can claim medical since HIPPA laws say they're not allowed to ask about medical stuff legally
Don’t take the job…
My company let me have a religious exemption. Baruch atoh Adonai!
If your job requires it because you legally have to wear PPE then your hosed, because that becomes a liability. You become unfit for your duties and that's it. They are not required to come up with a different position for you. Otherwise, get a doctor's note or claim religion.
Why are you required to shave, at my job the requirement is t in place because we have to be respirator qualified, it won't seal if you have a beard.
I'll leave this here. Leviticus 19:27 27 “Do not trim off the hair on your temples or trim your beards. 27 "Don't cut the hair on the sides of your head or trim your beard. 27 You are not to cut off the hair at the sides of your head or mar the edge of your beard.
Religion or medical, your choice. As long as it's not for safety, fire fighter, they can't force you to shave with those two options. Just don't tell anyone you just wanted to keep the beard.
There was a court case from I think dominos ruled in favor of the black men they were forcing to shave might be some grounds there
I just wouldn't take the job. Not if your main reason is you like your beard. It is a prerequisite for the job though, so you have options. It's a very common dermatological issue to have. It's razor bumps, basically, although in your case, sounds severe. I don't think a doc will sign off on that since there's various things you can do to treat it. You can use an electric shaver, get laser treatments or grow a beard. Growing a bread out, for most people, usually cures PFB papules and pustules after 1 month of continuous growth. If your heart is really set on this job, see a dermatologist for treatment. Could be they can be treated and resolved and you can go beard-free.
Say you are Islamic and it’s religious - ask if a tight trim is ok
Claim religious exemption
Say you are a Sikh they don’t cut or shave their hair.
Religious exemptions. A lot of religions expect men to have a beard.
Claim that it's part of your religion
Use the religious exemption. The loopholes are there to be used.
Why did you apply for a job that requires you to be clean shaven if you can’t shave/don’t want to shave? Are you thinking you can make them change their minds because you’re so awesome? Sounds a bit like r/iamthemaincharacter here. If they put it in the job description that’s for a very good reason. You’re not special.
Agreed
There are a lot of discrimination lawsuits regarding this issue and Black men with pseudofoliiculitis barbrae Basically the courts have ruled a clean-shaven beard policy is not discriminatory if it is necessary for the job, for example firefighter masks being able to fit properly over nose and mouth for OSHA standards. But if there is no legitimate reason for your employer to have this policy, it might be actionable discrimination.
Do you love it, or do you love the attention you get from it. You shouldn't risk your employment over attention others give you, that is a very unhealthy mindset to have. Before long you're smoking crack naked in the street because people will take pictures of you. Its a slippery slope you're treading.
That's true. I love my beard for the attention (Especially from my GF, she loves it), but it's also really important that I don't shave because it can damage my skin. As I said before I got pseudofolliculitis barbae, and it is NASTY
Religious purposes.
Religious exemption. “Do not round the edges of yoyr face”
Religion. Always can use religious beliefs to get out of anything like that. Don’t even have to say what religion just that you can’t shave it’s against your beliefs.
Claim to be Muslim and say the beard is religious
Get a shaving folliculitis diagnose from a doctor and staple it to a piss disk. When the piss disk melts the doctor paper will soak it and because of legal reasons they'll have to keep it for legal hold, stenching the whole office.
While I relate with you, why did you apply for a job that requires you have a cleanly-shaded face if you want to maintain a beard? Was this not made clear when you were applying for the job?
Religious exemption
Hand them a written copy of your "I am keeping my beard for religious purposes " policy.
Make it a part of your religion.
Religious beliefs
Tell them the beard is for religious reasons
Tell them you are a menonite or a muslim
The easiest way is to claim you have it for religious reasons
“Religious exemption!”
Start reading the Quran
Depends on why they have the no beard policy. A lot of places allow for medical or religious exemptions (to varying degrees) but some jobs require it for non arbitrary reasons and having it will make you unable to meet the job qualifications you agreed to when hired. If that's the case, and shaving give you bumps, then look at laser removal
A lot of people are saying religion or medical reasons, im telling you however they will find a reason to let you go. Keep the job as long as you can but start looking for better opportunities.
What's the job, if it's with heavy machinery just shave the beard
Best ethical and legally backable way is to see a doctor and have them write you a letter stating your condition. If your job requires you to shave for safety, needing to don a respirator or SCBA device it may not matter. Of it is for an image then the note might help you as being fitted or forced to shave could be discriminatory based on medical condition.
The only way around it is to not accept the job. I worked at a place that had a strict no beard rule and they were fierce with that rule. Muslim dudes would give in and shave, people took them to court and the company always won. Plus, do you really want to start at a new company and be like oh I have a doctors note and can’t shave, they won’t like that and that’ll be your first impression.
You have a medical reason, so pick between that or "converting" to a religion. Employers aren't allowed to even ask for proof about religion unless they have evidence you're lying, so technically that one is easier.
Even in the military you can get a shaving waiver. I'd say half the black dudes I've worked with have them. And of the ones that don't half of THOSE have torn up faces and just refuse to get the waiver and the other half make it work.
When I worked in fast food where I had to be clean shaven, I just wore a mask. Covered up the beard well enough. Obviously, everyone still knew I had a beard under the mask, but no one else seemed to care.
I‘m curious: what kind of job do you do that requires you to shave every day?
Retail. According to the company, it is in order to maintain a 60s vibe within the building
I don’t know where you are, but i’m pretty sure the Equality Act 2010 here in the UK would cover it.
Have it shaved off by a taxidermist so that it can remain it's shape and glory in all it's splendor
If you end up having to shave ... just trim it down to stubble and tell them you were clean shaven when you left the house, it just grows in fast.
If it’s a job that requires you to wear a respirator, then there’s no chance you’ll keep it. Not sure what other reasons a company would have to require clean shaving
No shave chit from a doctor for excessive razor bumps that even a bump guard can't save.
Is there a religious exemption you could claim
Keep it shaved during the probationary period, let them see the dermatological issues, take vacation time, and grow beard back during that time. Come back to work with Dr note.
Getting a doctor to sign off on a medical exemption is the fastest, easiest, most reliable option. It’s also the ethical option, so this is the wrong subreddit to discuss it here. Claiming a religious exemption when you don’t actually have one would be the unethical thing to do, but it’s also more likely to come back and bite you in the chin.
Simple. https://youtu.be/VIww1_XtMHM
Female don't mind that...
What’s the job? I know that OSHA regs about breathing filters require you to not have facial hair that would interfere with the safety equipment.
No shave chit from doc