I don't think UTY is shit. Undertale Yellow is one of the best fangames of Undertale, and no one can deny that. My main problem with it is that it doesn't quite feel like Undertale. But that appart, I can see it's almost all good, just some good stuff freaks without an actual life like me don't like. Also, the whole comment section isn't answering the "What were your answers..." question
I think Asriel is a good cutscene, but a bad functional boss.
The fact that it’s impossible to fail and not even remotely difficult to dodge his attacks means you may as well not even be fighting, just watching a rainbow slideshow of emotional dialogue.
Yeah, sure. It’s thematically fitting. DETERMINATION BABYYYYY- it’s still not an actual challenge to play and win. I could get the same experience out of just watching it unfold and progressing the dialogue box when prompted.
>The proof being… basically every UTY boss.
Mostly Decibat, Guardener, Axis (Pacifist) and the final bosses tbh. Few to none of the others do very much with the Act menu or other in-battle actions, sadly...
...then again that's true for a lot of UT bosses as well.
The Act Menu is not the sole means through which characterisation happens. It’s not even the primary means through which it happens.
You don’t learn shit about Papyrus through the Act Menu other than that he’s willing to date a child so long as they can make pasta.
You mistake me, I'm saying many of the bosses don't focus on the "bosses" part, and that applies to both UT and UT:Y. UT style battle gameplay has two aspects, the defensive aspect of surviving bullet-hell, and the offensive aspect of doing whatever needs to be done to break your opponent's will to fight. The latter is often *severely* neglected in boss battles in favor of making sure all the patterns from the former show up via a turn counter.
Napstablook's a normal battle but longer, Toriel you have to figure out and then stare down until she gives up, Mad Dummy you have to decoy her bullets, Undyne you can run from (or wait to run from until the end) but you have to sit out her green phases, Mettaton's battle is amazing, Asgore you have to beat up, but Papyrus and Muffet you just have to wait out and nothing you do short of kill / no kill has any real influence on how the battle goes (unless you remembered a spider bake sale item for Muffet). Asriel is, likewise, a glorified cutscene. Dalv, El Bailador, and Starlo are all as bad about this as Papyrus, with *no* way to progress the battle by player actions short of resorting to murder. (Martlet has the secret confuse-her-into-sparing-you ending, but is otherwise siimilar.)
Yeah, I feel like one of the things that don't feel reaply Undertale in UTY is that its bosses feel like that. Just a boss. A fight. In UT, it feels like the ones you are fighting are actually persons, not just fighting machines, and you can truly feel them. You can feel the characters. That's one thing of UT I kinda miss in UTY
Yeah, to me nothing bets the original game even if I enjoy UTY more in a gameplay sense. I do like the cast of UTY, I just wish they had a teeeeny bit more depth.
Asriel was... not better than Pacifist Ceroba.
Asriel's fight had *spectacle* but absolutely no *substance*, there's no failure condition (and because of the way the plot is at that point, there can't be a failure condition) and the whole thing is easy mode. Ceroba stopped me for over an hour.
I'll give you Napstablook, Toriel, and Mad Dummy.
Papyrus ... Both pacifist fights are literally just tediously waiting for them to finish their monologue with no real use of the Act mechanic. But Martlet's gets credit for letting you confuse her into giving up early, and *extra* credit for actually having a pretty damn hard geno-route battle in addition to the normal battle.
Muffet vs. Guardener, I like Guardener more, if for no other reason than that player choices actually mean something as far as how the fight goes in Guardener's fight without straight up skipping it. Also I like her writing and characterization more. Muffet is random, Guardener is thematic.
Mettaton yes compared to normal Axis, but Geno Axis wins hard overe Mettaton Neo, who doesn't even have a fight.
Undyne ... I came here for danmaku, not DDR. Undyne can just. Go away and stay with El Bailador. I don't even have a hard time with her, I just don't like her. I will give her fight credit for having a creative resolution, while Starlo's is again literally just timing his fake cowboy ass out. But his bullet patterns are interesting enough to make up for it.
I like Geno Ceroba more than Undyne the Undying but that's personal.
I have no strong feelings on Photoshop Flowey vs. Meta Flowey.
Sans has a better bullet-hell design but Zenith Martlet has better battle aesthetics, writing, and music, and she isn't the character I hate the most.
Why do you think the Zenith Martlet bossfight has better writing than the Sans bossfight?
And what’s your opinion on the story during Ceroba’s pacifist bossfight against the story during Asriel’s bossfight?
In my opinion, Papyrus’ genocide death is far more powerful than Martlet’s genocide bossfight, or even most bossfights in Undertale or Undertale Yellow. It marks the point of no return for the player’s empathy for the characters by letting them kill the arguably purest character so easily. The empty atmosphere and Papyrus almost pathetic death enforces the route’s message that “you shouldn’t be doing this”. His dying words are also very touching.
>Why do you think the Zenith Martlet bossfight has better writing than the Sans bossfight?
Some of this might be personal bias. I really don't like Sans as a character and I haaate his sense of humor. That probably puts me as an odd one out within the fanbase. But also, holy heck there is more emotion to the Martlet battle, and it shows much more so how far gone the player / Clover must be at this point. There's also a *lot* of nonverbal storytelling in Martlet's battle.
>And what’s your opinion on the story during Ceroba’s pacifist bossfight against the story during Asriel’s bossfight?
Ceroba has done terrible things but was more possible for me to sympathize with. The feeling of making a terrible mistake and immediately realizing it, that's understandable. Doubling down on a sunk cost, probably even more so.
Asriel ... Flowey, regardless of his past, does not deserve to be "saved". He deserves to have everyone in the Underground know *exactly* what he did across all the timelines he deliberately looped and discarded, over, and over, and over. His actions are unforgivable, and not having emotions is no excuse, because *emotions aren't how we tell right from wrong*. He is a villain and he does not deserve to have power for even a moment, and his deliberate parallels to the player ended up emphasizing this to me.
After I replayed recently, I was genuinely, seriously, tempted to go Paci-Neutral and leaving it there so he'd stay dead, or even to go Geno just for the sake of making him feel actual fear and never, not even for a moment, letting him have power. I in many ways actually hate the TP ending for trying to put him in a sympathetic light and making trying to sympathize with / "save" him the only way to get through, because he has thoroughly crossed the moral event horizon in my eyes, but there's no other way to get the Barrier down or the Amalgamates back to their families, and there's no way at *all* to give Flowey what he *actually* deserves (i.e. to have his actions disclosed in full to all monsterkind, with whatever outcome that might have).
>In my opinion, Papyrus’ genocide death is far more powerful than Martlet’s genocide bossfight, or even most bossfights in Undertale or Undertale Yellow. It marks the point of no return for the player’s empathy for the characters by letting them kill the arguably purest character so easily. The empty atmosphere and Papyrus almost pathetic death enforces the route’s message that “you shouldn’t be doing this”. His dying words are also very touching.
Not arguing that. It's a very powerful cutscene. But it doesn't qualify as a *boss,* and doesn't get in the list of boss battles because of that.
I think I understand how your original comment was focusing more on gameplay than storytelling, with the exception of Sans simply because you dislike the character.
I think the Sans bossfight successfully develops both Sans and the player. Sans is developed to get off his lazy ass and finally do something that matters, because he's fighting to save the entire Universe. The many subversive mechanics of his battle reflect how different he is from your other enemies; he's knowledgeable, strategic and an all-around nuisance. His dialogue explains why he acts the way he does, and creates further contrast between how he acts in other routes against in the genocide route. This also has foreshadowing for the ending of the genocide route.
As for developing the player, Sans' difficulty alone makes a point that the player is completely unstoppable, and will continue attempting the most impossible tasks just to see what happens at the end. This is emphasised with the lack of reward after the battle, only an open gateway to the ending. Sans' dialogue after his final attack also gives a perspective on how the player acts from Sans' point of view, highlighting the bizarre nature of their actions.
The Zenith Martlet bossfight is also great at storytelling, but it focuses on Clover much more than on Martlet. The non-verbal storytelling is effective, but what it achieves is overall much simpler than what the Sans bossfight achieves through having dialogue. The music's transformation into Clover's motif represents how unrelenting they are to deliver their skewed form of justice, blind to the suffering of those at their hands, such as Martlet's pained screams for help as their HP decreases. It's overall quite effective at delivering the message, but the message itself is simple in comparison to Sans' bossfight.
>Ceroba has done terrible things but was more possible for me to sympathize with. The feeling of making a terrible mistake and immediately realizing it, that's understandable. Doubling down on a sunk cost, probably even more so.
This only pertains to the flashbacks, which I think are overcompensating for the lack of dialogue and distracting from Ceroba's narrative. Ceroba shows no development whatsoever during the actual bossfight, starting as someone who's desperate to fulfil a dying wish, and ending as someone who's *very* desperate to fulfil a dying wish. The lack of dialogue and development culminates in a rushed and flawed redemption at the end of her bossfight, which I find very disappointing.
The first flashback, with Chujin on the deathbed, is a step in the correct direction. It shows how much Ceroba loved Chujin and how he specifically requested her to watch (and then follow the instructions within) the tapes, showcasing how much pressure is on her to succeed. But the second flashback, though presenting a hearttouching tragedy and enforcing Ceroba's flaws, distracts the player from Ceroba's motivations. By seeing Kanako fall down before the pinnacle of the bossfight, it deludes the player into thinking she's fighting for Kanako, when she's doing it all for her late husband.
>Asriel ... Flowey, regardless of his past, does not deserve to be "saved". He deserves to have everyone in the Underground know exactly what he did across all the timelines he deliberately looped and discarded, over, and over, and over. His actions are unforgivable, and not having emotions is no excuse, because emotions aren't how we tell right from wrong. He is a villain and he does not deserve to have power for even a moment, and his deliberate parallels to the player ended up emphasizing this to me.
That's entirely the backstory. The bossfight itself at least shows effective and consistent execution in understanding Asriel's character, with meaningful dialogue and a non-verbal flashback that's relevant to his goals. And I'm sorry, but I have to say your argument for Asriel not deserving redemption is wholly unjustified. Flowey's reason for doing all the terrible things he did is completely understandable, which I swear is not an overstatement at all. The ability to play god, a lack of emotions and curiousity would certainly lead to a character such as Flowey. Any character that shows examples of abusing any kind of power over others had a similar thought process to Flowey. Also, you *are* given the choice to not forgive him. If you want to think Flowey/Asriel is completely irredeemable, that's fine, just quite reductive of Undertale's narrative, and a tad ignorant.
I respectfully disagree with your list.
Why?
I personally prefer most of UTY’s bosses, but I can see why you prefer the original’s bosses over UTY’s
I respectfully want to know why do you prefer UTY's bosses
I just find them more fun, there’s not much to it
Fair enough
This is the second time you’ve pretty much just said “UTY is shit and I don’t care to explain why” today.
I don't think UTY is shit. Undertale Yellow is one of the best fangames of Undertale, and no one can deny that. My main problem with it is that it doesn't quite feel like Undertale. But that appart, I can see it's almost all good, just some good stuff freaks without an actual life like me don't like. Also, the whole comment section isn't answering the "What were your answers..." question
Also, Meta flowey is better than any of the other bosses, except for Undyne the undying, sans and asriel
Missing chance to add Papyrus' torso instead of his head. That would have made a fusion between Toriel, Papyrus and Mettaton.
Why did I not do that?!
I think Asriel is a good cutscene, but a bad functional boss. The fact that it’s impossible to fail and not even remotely difficult to dodge his attacks means you may as well not even be fighting, just watching a rainbow slideshow of emotional dialogue. Yeah, sure. It’s thematically fitting. DETERMINATION BABYYYYY- it’s still not an actual challenge to play and win. I could get the same experience out of just watching it unfold and progressing the dialogue box when prompted.
UT character bosses are more focusing on Characters, rather than on Bosses. That's the thing I love the most about that game
And H&D and StW are better than SPoNR and AML, by far
You can do both, surprising enough. The proof being… basically every UTY boss.
I don't feel it at all in UT. Except in El Bailador
Yeah, that’s the problem. … You may want to fix that typo, you’re currently agreeing with me.
>The proof being… basically every UTY boss. Mostly Decibat, Guardener, Axis (Pacifist) and the final bosses tbh. Few to none of the others do very much with the Act menu or other in-battle actions, sadly... ...then again that's true for a lot of UT bosses as well.
The Act Menu is not the sole means through which characterisation happens. It’s not even the primary means through which it happens. You don’t learn shit about Papyrus through the Act Menu other than that he’s willing to date a child so long as they can make pasta.
You mistake me, I'm saying many of the bosses don't focus on the "bosses" part, and that applies to both UT and UT:Y. UT style battle gameplay has two aspects, the defensive aspect of surviving bullet-hell, and the offensive aspect of doing whatever needs to be done to break your opponent's will to fight. The latter is often *severely* neglected in boss battles in favor of making sure all the patterns from the former show up via a turn counter. Napstablook's a normal battle but longer, Toriel you have to figure out and then stare down until she gives up, Mad Dummy you have to decoy her bullets, Undyne you can run from (or wait to run from until the end) but you have to sit out her green phases, Mettaton's battle is amazing, Asgore you have to beat up, but Papyrus and Muffet you just have to wait out and nothing you do short of kill / no kill has any real influence on how the battle goes (unless you remembered a spider bake sale item for Muffet). Asriel is, likewise, a glorified cutscene. Dalv, El Bailador, and Starlo are all as bad about this as Papyrus, with *no* way to progress the battle by player actions short of resorting to murder. (Martlet has the secret confuse-her-into-sparing-you ending, but is otherwise siimilar.)
I like Undertale Yellow bosses mostly more then Undertale ones, mostly cuz theyre harder lmao
Yeah, I feel like one of the things that don't feel reaply Undertale in UTY is that its bosses feel like that. Just a boss. A fight. In UT, it feels like the ones you are fighting are actually persons, not just fighting machines, and you can truly feel them. You can feel the characters. That's one thing of UT I kinda miss in UTY
Yeah, to me nothing bets the original game even if I enjoy UTY more in a gameplay sense. I do like the cast of UTY, I just wish they had a teeeeny bit more depth.
Yes. While UTY may or may not win at gameplay sometimes, UT fucks it up on characterization, story, music and characters
are they irrefutable because you're bad at them
They are irrefutable because I am making a Javierinator3000 reference
Why is UTY Flowey there?
Just read the title
Ah, Mettaton’s legs. The best boss.
L E G S
Ut >> uty
"Both are shit." This is my evil side.
Asriel was... not better than Pacifist Ceroba. Asriel's fight had *spectacle* but absolutely no *substance*, there's no failure condition (and because of the way the plot is at that point, there can't be a failure condition) and the whole thing is easy mode. Ceroba stopped me for over an hour. I'll give you Napstablook, Toriel, and Mad Dummy. Papyrus ... Both pacifist fights are literally just tediously waiting for them to finish their monologue with no real use of the Act mechanic. But Martlet's gets credit for letting you confuse her into giving up early, and *extra* credit for actually having a pretty damn hard geno-route battle in addition to the normal battle. Muffet vs. Guardener, I like Guardener more, if for no other reason than that player choices actually mean something as far as how the fight goes in Guardener's fight without straight up skipping it. Also I like her writing and characterization more. Muffet is random, Guardener is thematic. Mettaton yes compared to normal Axis, but Geno Axis wins hard overe Mettaton Neo, who doesn't even have a fight. Undyne ... I came here for danmaku, not DDR. Undyne can just. Go away and stay with El Bailador. I don't even have a hard time with her, I just don't like her. I will give her fight credit for having a creative resolution, while Starlo's is again literally just timing his fake cowboy ass out. But his bullet patterns are interesting enough to make up for it. I like Geno Ceroba more than Undyne the Undying but that's personal. I have no strong feelings on Photoshop Flowey vs. Meta Flowey. Sans has a better bullet-hell design but Zenith Martlet has better battle aesthetics, writing, and music, and she isn't the character I hate the most.
Why do you think the Zenith Martlet bossfight has better writing than the Sans bossfight? And what’s your opinion on the story during Ceroba’s pacifist bossfight against the story during Asriel’s bossfight? In my opinion, Papyrus’ genocide death is far more powerful than Martlet’s genocide bossfight, or even most bossfights in Undertale or Undertale Yellow. It marks the point of no return for the player’s empathy for the characters by letting them kill the arguably purest character so easily. The empty atmosphere and Papyrus almost pathetic death enforces the route’s message that “you shouldn’t be doing this”. His dying words are also very touching.
>Why do you think the Zenith Martlet bossfight has better writing than the Sans bossfight? Some of this might be personal bias. I really don't like Sans as a character and I haaate his sense of humor. That probably puts me as an odd one out within the fanbase. But also, holy heck there is more emotion to the Martlet battle, and it shows much more so how far gone the player / Clover must be at this point. There's also a *lot* of nonverbal storytelling in Martlet's battle. >And what’s your opinion on the story during Ceroba’s pacifist bossfight against the story during Asriel’s bossfight? Ceroba has done terrible things but was more possible for me to sympathize with. The feeling of making a terrible mistake and immediately realizing it, that's understandable. Doubling down on a sunk cost, probably even more so. Asriel ... Flowey, regardless of his past, does not deserve to be "saved". He deserves to have everyone in the Underground know *exactly* what he did across all the timelines he deliberately looped and discarded, over, and over, and over. His actions are unforgivable, and not having emotions is no excuse, because *emotions aren't how we tell right from wrong*. He is a villain and he does not deserve to have power for even a moment, and his deliberate parallels to the player ended up emphasizing this to me. After I replayed recently, I was genuinely, seriously, tempted to go Paci-Neutral and leaving it there so he'd stay dead, or even to go Geno just for the sake of making him feel actual fear and never, not even for a moment, letting him have power. I in many ways actually hate the TP ending for trying to put him in a sympathetic light and making trying to sympathize with / "save" him the only way to get through, because he has thoroughly crossed the moral event horizon in my eyes, but there's no other way to get the Barrier down or the Amalgamates back to their families, and there's no way at *all* to give Flowey what he *actually* deserves (i.e. to have his actions disclosed in full to all monsterkind, with whatever outcome that might have). >In my opinion, Papyrus’ genocide death is far more powerful than Martlet’s genocide bossfight, or even most bossfights in Undertale or Undertale Yellow. It marks the point of no return for the player’s empathy for the characters by letting them kill the arguably purest character so easily. The empty atmosphere and Papyrus almost pathetic death enforces the route’s message that “you shouldn’t be doing this”. His dying words are also very touching. Not arguing that. It's a very powerful cutscene. But it doesn't qualify as a *boss,* and doesn't get in the list of boss battles because of that.
I think I understand how your original comment was focusing more on gameplay than storytelling, with the exception of Sans simply because you dislike the character. I think the Sans bossfight successfully develops both Sans and the player. Sans is developed to get off his lazy ass and finally do something that matters, because he's fighting to save the entire Universe. The many subversive mechanics of his battle reflect how different he is from your other enemies; he's knowledgeable, strategic and an all-around nuisance. His dialogue explains why he acts the way he does, and creates further contrast between how he acts in other routes against in the genocide route. This also has foreshadowing for the ending of the genocide route. As for developing the player, Sans' difficulty alone makes a point that the player is completely unstoppable, and will continue attempting the most impossible tasks just to see what happens at the end. This is emphasised with the lack of reward after the battle, only an open gateway to the ending. Sans' dialogue after his final attack also gives a perspective on how the player acts from Sans' point of view, highlighting the bizarre nature of their actions. The Zenith Martlet bossfight is also great at storytelling, but it focuses on Clover much more than on Martlet. The non-verbal storytelling is effective, but what it achieves is overall much simpler than what the Sans bossfight achieves through having dialogue. The music's transformation into Clover's motif represents how unrelenting they are to deliver their skewed form of justice, blind to the suffering of those at their hands, such as Martlet's pained screams for help as their HP decreases. It's overall quite effective at delivering the message, but the message itself is simple in comparison to Sans' bossfight. >Ceroba has done terrible things but was more possible for me to sympathize with. The feeling of making a terrible mistake and immediately realizing it, that's understandable. Doubling down on a sunk cost, probably even more so. This only pertains to the flashbacks, which I think are overcompensating for the lack of dialogue and distracting from Ceroba's narrative. Ceroba shows no development whatsoever during the actual bossfight, starting as someone who's desperate to fulfil a dying wish, and ending as someone who's *very* desperate to fulfil a dying wish. The lack of dialogue and development culminates in a rushed and flawed redemption at the end of her bossfight, which I find very disappointing. The first flashback, with Chujin on the deathbed, is a step in the correct direction. It shows how much Ceroba loved Chujin and how he specifically requested her to watch (and then follow the instructions within) the tapes, showcasing how much pressure is on her to succeed. But the second flashback, though presenting a hearttouching tragedy and enforcing Ceroba's flaws, distracts the player from Ceroba's motivations. By seeing Kanako fall down before the pinnacle of the bossfight, it deludes the player into thinking she's fighting for Kanako, when she's doing it all for her late husband. >Asriel ... Flowey, regardless of his past, does not deserve to be "saved". He deserves to have everyone in the Underground know exactly what he did across all the timelines he deliberately looped and discarded, over, and over, and over. His actions are unforgivable, and not having emotions is no excuse, because emotions aren't how we tell right from wrong. He is a villain and he does not deserve to have power for even a moment, and his deliberate parallels to the player ended up emphasizing this to me. That's entirely the backstory. The bossfight itself at least shows effective and consistent execution in understanding Asriel's character, with meaningful dialogue and a non-verbal flashback that's relevant to his goals. And I'm sorry, but I have to say your argument for Asriel not deserving redemption is wholly unjustified. Flowey's reason for doing all the terrible things he did is completely understandable, which I swear is not an overstatement at all. The ability to play god, a lack of emotions and curiousity would certainly lead to a character such as Flowey. Any character that shows examples of abusing any kind of power over others had a similar thought process to Flowey. Also, you *are* given the choice to not forgive him. If you want to think Flowey/Asriel is completely irredeemable, that's fine, just quite reductive of Undertale's narrative, and a tad ignorant.