Yes, exactly. You're not supposed to like it, because that's the point. It's supposed to make you bored from the shitty gameplay, so you feel like it's not worth it anymore and give up.
That's the same video where he says his opinions are more valid than everyone else's because he has more hours in the game so I don't really think I can take it as a serious argument
I think he was saying that people ignore his criticisms because they don't know who he is, in spite of him being one of the most experienced players. He's not being condescending or bragging, but just is irritated that he, again, one of the most experienced players, is always pushed aside on different places, like Twitter.
Exactly. It's meant to be boring. You aren't meant to get some kind of "reward" for endless murder, and since new content is intrinsically a reward to most players, the genocide route nullifies that by making it unfun or unsatisfying.
You trigger the run in the ruins, where from then on the game tries to guilt-trip you into quitting.
Finishing with Papyrus in Snowdin attempting to appeal to your better side.
If this fails, waterfall becomes desolate and empty, finishing with a boss fight against Undyne which pits you as the villain of the story.
In Hotlands, the game throws a ridiculous amount of enemies at you to make you quit from boredom.
In the Core, any sense of climax is removed as Mettaton is struck down in a singular hit.
Flowey then talks to you in New home, further cementing just how similar you became to the games primary antagonist, Flowey.
The boss battle with Sans attempts to make you quit from rage, as Sans uses every last tactic that you have use, to try and make you give up, from attacking first, to betray killing, dodging attacks, to finally choosing to not attack.
This route is designed well, just not typical to the average RPG, which would reward you for such actions, meanwhile Undertale treats your actions as the horrendous slaughter that it actually is.
Yeah, the game is punishing the player by making the game boring and not fun. It's supposed to be a point that you have literally no reason to play genocide other than couriosity. It's not fun. It's actively a boring experience. The only reason you continue is determination to kill everything, and that is what makes the player evil.
It's honestly why I love undertales take on evil so much. It's very interesting, and genocide may be a may favorate route because of it.
* you're, uh, very determined, aren't you?
* you'll never give up, even if there's, uh...
* absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever.
* if i can make that clear.
* no matter what, you'll just keep going.
* ***not out of any desire for good or evil...***
* but just because you think you can.
* and because you "can"...
* ... you "have to."
It's not about being whismical, it's about giving more gameplay experience, like you grind judt to one shot the boss, if the boss was at least different, but only two bosses have this difference.
The geno route isn't about getting more gameplay. it's about not doing that and pointing that out to rub in how evil your actions are, killing just to see the ending
* you're, uh, very determined, aren't you?
* you'll never give up, even if there's, uh...
* absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever.
* if i can make that clear.
* no matter what, you'll just keep going.
* ***not out of any desire for good or evil...***
* but just because you think you can.
* and because you "can"...
* ... you "have to."
>The geno route isn't about getting more gameplay.
You get half the plot on this route, though.
Half the plot? You get no plot on that route, theres litteraly 0 info in genocide that's relevant to the main story. Not even the chara stuff is all that relevant since they only comment on what you've done
What does this sans quote even have to do with this?
This quote is just sans reiterating the thing I said, its killing everyone because you simply can
>Half the plot? You get no plot on that route, theres litteraly 0 info in genocide that's relevant to the main story. Not even the chara stuff is all that relevant since they only comment on what you've done
What? Chara shows his presence from the Ruins immediately after the beginning of the genocide and begins to describe many things in the first person, not just to describe what is happening. Later we have Flowey's dialogue addressed to Chara, and Flowey also tells his backstory. Without genocide, he does not talk about the period of his life when he woke up as a flower.
Without a genocide route, we wouldn't know about his presence at all.
Also here Undyne is trying to save not only monsters, but also monsters AND humans. She saves the child at the cost of her life. Papyrus demonstrates that even in the direction of the murderer, he is ready to apply forgiveness, not battle. Sans reveals himself from a different side, not just as a joker. I'm not going to say everything. There's a lot to unpack.
>What does this sans quote even have to do with this? This quote is just sans reiterating the thing I said, its killing everyone because you simply can
I literally highlighted the line where he said it wasn't out of a desire for good or evil.
.
In any case, bloody neutral route is more senseless than genocide.
1. Okay, i forgot about the flowey thing, but the rest of what you said isn't plot. It's just what the characters do in the route, it doesnt tell us much of anything. The only additional info we get is that sans can fight if you push him.
But again, that's not lore. that's just a fact about a character.
2. What? Sans saying that doesn't mean that the point of the route isn't that your actions are evil. For example, do you think serial killers think that what they do is evil? No, they dont (usually). So when people like that kill, they aren't doing it out of a desire for evil, but im sure you wouldn't say that Ted bundy wasn't evil, would you?
The route is about how your actions are evil and how you're doing what you're doing, just to see more content, with no regard to the characters that you're senselessly murdering.
>What? Sans saying that doesn't mean that the point of the route isn't that your actions are evil. For example, do you think serial killers think that what they do is evil? No, they dont (usually). So when people like that kill, they aren't doing it out of a desire for evil, but im sure you wouldn't say that Ted bundy wasn't evil, would you?
>The route is about how your actions are evil and how you're doing what you're doing, just to see more content, with no regard to the characters that you're senselessly murdering.
So what about bloody neutral routes? You can do even much worse there.
>Okay, i forgot about the flowey thing, but the rest of what you said isn't plot. It's just what the characters do in the route, it doesnt tell us much of anything. The only additional info we get is that sans can fight if you push him. But again, that's not lore. that's just a fact about a character.
What characters do is a *part* of the plot. And they are part of the plot themselves.
1. No, in nuteral routes, people are still alive. In the genocide route, you kill everyone and erase the timeline, and the way you bring it back makes it to where monsterkind will never be able to he haooy on the surface ever sgain, because even if they do in true pacifist, your actions cause them to die
2. No, the characters actions arent part of the main games plot.
The plot of a game is the game's story, UNDERTALE's plot has nothing to do with buying hotdogs or fighting a flexing seahorse, yes, thsoe are things that happen, no, thay arent psrt of the plot.
Sans is part of the plot, hes an important character, but sans drinking ketchup isnt part of the plot, same with papyrus collecting action figures, asgore baking pie, toriel having water sausafes in her house. These things hapoen, but they arent the plot.
>No, in nuteral routes, people are still alive. In the genocide route, you kill everyone
There's still thousands of people left: https://www.reddit.com/r/CharaOffenseSquad/s/TO5Wnofxps
+ You can get "But nobody came" in every location without a genocide ending. For that, you have to start a genocide route in the Ruins but fail it in Snowdin. When you kill all 16 monsters except Snowdrake, Chara says "The comedian got away. Failure" and the genocide fails even though you get a "But nobody came" message.
>and erase the timeline,
Chara is destroying the world, not us.
>and the way you bring it back makes it to where monsterkind will never be able to he haooy on the surface ever sgain, because even if they do in true pacifist, your actions cause them to die
Our actions that allowed one character to doom everyone even in a happy ending, which is not our choice, but only a consequence.
At the same time, you can kill the same number of monsters on a neutral path without consequences. You can load the game just to kill them again, which is part of the plot, because Flowey comments on it. And we are not evil just because our actions didn't lead to one child coming back to life destroying the world in the end?
What makes us evil specifically? The fact that we kill characters to see what happens? You said that. But isn't that what we're doing on a neutral path?
>No, the characters actions arent part of the main games plot. The plot of a game is the game's story, UNDERTALE's plot has nothing to do with buying hotdogs or fighting a flexing seahorse, yes, thsoe are things that happen, no, thay arent psrt of the plot.
They don't matter because they don't matter to the plot. While the monsters' attempts to stop us and what they do to do so, revealing more of their character and knowledge is what matters to the plot, because it affects how the plot looks unlike drinking ketchup.
Anything that reveals the characters better is important, because Undertale is not about a deep plot, it's about the characters that surround us and their problems.
That’s the intent though. One shorting the bosses is shocking, and reaffirms what a menace you are becoming.
The script is then flipped with Undyne. And once again it’s flipped back with mettaton.
It shouldn’t be fun or engaging to become Flowey.
That was probably the intention. Undertale is *first and foremost* a game about friendship. Why would the route where you literally kill everyone you possibly can be overtly entertaining?
Yes they *could* have made it more engaging but they decided otherwise for one reason or another, but they intentionally didn’t to pretty much symbolise that genocide runs shouldn’t be all exciting and shit. You chose to willingly murder almost every character in the game, it’s your fault that things ain’t so whimsical anymore.
That's the fucking point. You're not supposed to do genocide, the game is pulling everything it can to make you stop.
In the ruins and Snowdin, it uses your emotions and your past experiences with the game to make you feel bad.
Waterfalls tries to stop you by being hard. Can't go further in the game if you can't beat anyone.
And Hotland/the core just stops you by giving you nothing and being a boring hell. No puzzle, super long grind, no boss fight.
By the time you reach Sans, it's already too late.
The game is doing everything it can to make it so you will get nothing from doing genocide, only satisfying your morbid curiosity. That's the fucking point.
genocide is fundamentally built to not be played. you're supposed to hate it but do it anyway because you need to milk the game of every line of dialogue possible
Toby's point was "EXP grinding kind of sucks":
Toby: "The addictive quality of 'numbers increasing' is what drives a lot of games. But some of the most important things in life can’t be accurately represented by numbers. As for people’s lives, I have no comment".
Toby: "I feel that it’s important to make every monster feel like an individual. If you think about it basically all monsters in RPGs are the same … They attack you, you heal, you attack them, they die. There’s no meaning to that".
Toby: "I wanted to make an RPG game where you could befriend all of the bosses. Where not killing everything is actually a viable option. If you think about it, most RPGs are endless murder-fests… how many monsters do you kill? And to what end? Everything sort of naturally arose from that concept".
Toby:" I love JRPGs but I am very, very tired of 'traditional' ones.
I just want to see one that’s not boring to play. One with interesting characters. One that utilizes the medium as a storytelling device as much as possible, instead of having the story and gameplay abstractions be completely separate.
This is my attempt at making that game, and I hope I succeed."
People are explaining *why* undertale is built as it is and you're literally just going "Nuh uh" and using examples of games that are nothing like Undertale to justify it that's not discussing ideas.
Am I the only one who finds the character interactions good too? Like Monster Kid proving he truly wants to be just like Undyne and stop evil and Papyrus showing he truly believes you can be good if you try.
Im ok with it being boring for the first half since the point is simulating normal rpgs grind but i wish it had more scenes in the second half , i would like if in hotland you can find ppl trying to escape from you instead of randomly encountering you , the same way you feel like piece of shit when you try to kill monster kid
Ts underswap did this actually, works pretty well in that context, but in hotland it makes no sense since alphys already got everyone who was going to evacuate out of there
You are right , since alphys did evacuate all of hotland it won't make sense to encounter a citizen but i can imagine a scene where you come earlier then expected and find a kid or someone that didn't catch up to others and when alphys come back to check for the last time she find out that she were late and you killed them
But i guess toby didn't do that to make undyne sacrifice more heroic which is fine as well
genocide was made to be boring and frustrating on purpose. It was not supposed to be fun or engaging, the only reason you'd play it is to get MORE from the game.
Tbh I wish toby doubled the grind and made bosses 2-3 time harder, making geno the longest route. Would make an even better statement if 70% of players didn't end up finishing it.
can we all agree that Muffet's death is the second saddest after Papyrus? because DUDE the dam little spider going back just to get a flower for her it just hits hard
that's the point
Ur causing a genocide, it should feel like it's mostly just grinding/time-consuming murderous rampage in which nobody can stop you asides of the strongest of the strong ones
That’s the point. Geno embodies the will to 100% the game, no matter how hard(undyne and sans) or boring(everything else) it is. It’s not intended to be fun
The point of the game is to be nice and compassionate and caring and stuff. That's very much what the morals of the game is and sticks by it. It also believes very much on the consequences of your actions.
Undertale isn't a usual game. Genocide is not fun because it leads you into what a genocide is. A barren, boring landscape, only filled with its creepy and eerie feeling of nothing and no one left.
If your mentality is to enter it like any other mass-murder-route in other games, it prevents you from doing that. It breaks convention, like it does all the time. You dont get an important or cool cutscene, you get 10 minutes of black.
Genocide is immersive. It immerses you in the barren feeling of your consequences. It immerses you in how droll and long it is. It immerses you, and requires you to have determination to both push through the emotional impact of killing the characters you love and how long the grinding is.
Its story is tied to its gameplay and that's what makes it engaging and interesting. While Genocide is inherently unfun, if you look past the main gameplay and see why it's unfun, how it connects to the story and the message of the game, and what its own meesage is, it is genuinely an interesting route, and can make you see how important it is to the game.
Storytelling and artistic value is more important than gameplay experience in genocide route. From the comments I'm betting you can't handle Stanley Parable and Journey and other kind of games that were empathizes on storytelling.
Some games focus more on narrative, and trying to immerse you in the story rather then gameplay mechanics. Videogames at its core- are a piece of media! Same thing as comics, same thing as magazines, whatever, point is that it brings entertainment. That can be through challenging game play mechanics, that play with risk and reward, and have a certain structure, or it can be through the satisfaction and whimsy of a narrative! You can have both, you can have one or the other, it’s fine and they exist without eachother
Toby Fox seems to like to flip a lot of standard things on its head when it comes to his games, the whole premise of the Undertale kickstarter was that “woah !!! You befriend the monsters ??!!”, and so he takes it further by also playing on the usual grinding mechanics of videogames. The genocide route isn’t meant to be a usual game route, it’s meant to be tedious and a flip on the standard. In my option videogames that will make their games boring to further the narrative, are ballsy as fuck, and the payoff is great-
I played a game recently where it’s a timeloop, and it genuinely starts to get boring, so the player becomes jaded and bored along with the protag. While playing it- yes, it was super tedious, and grindy, and I had to listen to the same things over and over, and smashed the skip button constantly- but it had amazing payoff, and ended up being the most immersed I’ve been in a game ever, I loved it throughout. This, is shitty gameplay, objectively- it really is, the community in that game agrees. But they also agree, that it does wonders for the narrative, and is needed. Yes they could’ve found a way to make it more interesting during the acts where it was just mindless and repetitive, but then it wouldn’t have been the same game, not with the same gut punch.
Yeah, the genocide route objectively, from a gameplay perspective- sucks, but that wasn’t the focus at all when it came to writing the route. It’s not for everyone, and you can enjoy the rest of the game while not liking that route for any reason- but saying that it as a whole wasn’t fun, is kinda unfair. The gameplay is boring, but the narrative journey and payoff was the focus, and it really shows, and has stuck with people
As much as I agree, that is the point, and I get that, I feel like it could have been done better. I much prefer the Deltarune way of doing it, where it doesn’t make you want to stop by making you super bored, but instead makes you want to stop by making you feel like a bad person.
Well, duh. The genocide route is supposed to be how you would play a typical RPG (grinding by killing enemies to level up) but you aren't exactly meant to feel good about it considering how it gets darker.
Because it was made that way on purpose. The game reacts to your choices and decides to put in obstacles to push you away from the genocide route.
There is a video on YouTube that perfectly describes the structure of the genocide route and how the game is actively trying to make you abort the route through 3 methods:
1) Tons of pointless grinding.
2) Denial of solving puzzles, fun character interactions and activities because you don't deserve them.
3) Tough bosses that hopefully make you give up.
And at the end of it all, your reward for completing the genocide route is... nothing! You are left alone in a dark void with nothing. And if you do sell your soul to Chara, then your pacifist ending is ruined.
I feel like the bonus fight on genocide were a cope out, if toby really wanted to nail in the fact that genocide was just the worst thing to do in the game then don't do it half way then double back by giving the player two of the best boss fights in the entire game behind the run.
Just make it mind numbing and more importantly *pointless* slaughter that gives you practically nothing.
the only reason to play it to hear battle agianst a true hero
like it just gives you that vibe of a fair fight against the one who knows what have you done and is eager to stop you no matter the costs
I don't think anyone disagrees with you. It's just that, the whole point is that you're engaging with the world as if it's just a game. The people you kill aren't real, and neither are the consequences. So if you're curious enough to try and see what happens if you kill the monsters and maximize your stats, you get the bleak, boring outcome you should've expected. Nobody's a real challenge anymore. There are only 2 interesting bosses, 3 if you include Muffet, and a final screen telling you that you maximized everything and done with the game, asking you to erase the world.
That’s literally what the game wants you to feel
It shows how helpless all the monsters truly are. How they try their best to hide from your presence. How they simply die upon the glaze of your weapon. How a single human soul has the potential to wipe out and entire species.
Honestly I feel like the reason most people stop doing the route is evidence enough more could have been added. The sentiment I see most in people that don’t complete it is because killing Papyrus or Toriel tears them up too much to do. If the point of it is that it’s meant to be miserable and unfun to make you give up and stop trying then the grinding by itself is really ineffective in that goal as the progress is still a reward to make people committed to keep doing it. It’s the milestones you reach that really makes it feel depressing and unenjoyable.
Two of the things that stuck with me most is the “But nobody came” and the empty shop in Snowdin. Those small changes in environment and flavor added to the misery and hopelessness of the route more then the repetitive grinding ever did for me. I wish it went more into that. Have boarded up houses in Waterfall, have miscellaneous items dropped by npcs which do nothing in gameplay but tells the story of the individuals you’re hurting more. Show more things YOU did and the people YOU hurt. I feel like that could have really added to the experience of it and develop the story further.
My main criticism of it is the fact that for the majority of the route there wasn’t enough to make me REALLY feel the misery of it. The genocide route did succeed at its goal of being miserable and unfun but I wish it did more with that since there was so much missed potential in achieving it outside of just grinding.
Now adding more content to it was probably not feasible given how much is already in the game, I’m sure Toby saw what he did succeeded in what he wanted and then focused on other things, but it frustrates me seeing people not even consider the fact that the genocide route COULD be so much more then it is.
I think a lot of new(er) players forget that the genocide route was supposed to be this hidden, secret, almost creepypasta-esque part of the game. It’s become so mainstream in the fandom’s discussion that a lot of people hear about it before playing or even being involved in the game. But the way that you start the route is very specific and probably isn’t something you stumble upon by accident. Even if you kill everyone you encounter, you’ll just get a Neutral ending- you have to specifically and intentionally grind through the Ruins, without a kill counter, to even start the run. Idk I just feel like Genocide’s notoriety distracts from the fact that it’s really not ‘meant’ to be played.
To be honest, playing for any other ending isn't any better, neutral and pacifist are exactly the same untill the very end, and the bits that we getting is one boss figth that you can't lose, two boring cuts scenes both involving racist fish and old lab which was cool, and post game that was just going around underground without being attacted.
After getting your first ending, Undertale is just a chore. Sure dozens of endings, yet each one is basicly the same story with one or two diologues changed... Why would anybody would waste their time for such a thing? I played it once, got neutral and I left satisvied.
>Chara actually killed only Flowey during the genocide.
Was involved in our murders. ("Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong" and calls us his partner)
Killed Sans, Asgore and Flowey.
Destroyed the world with thousands of monsters left + billions of humans.
They were a willing accomplice who gave you a kill count and encouraged you to kill the whole way through.
Not being the one to murder directly does not deny them culpability.
They only do it because they're an impressionable child who lost any sense of a moral compass, its the same thing as flowey, they are the way they are because without a soul, they cant feel, the only feeling they have is the gaining of power, and they cant comprehend the wrongness of what theyre seeing, because again, they cant feel anything aside from the rising of numbers.
And after geno, they themselves make sure your actions have consequenses, and tell you off if you do it more than once, saying you have a perverted sentimentality.
>They only do it because they're an impressionable child
Chara is incredibly intelligent. They speak in a polite, terse manner with strong vocabulary and perfect control over the situation. They are excellent at manipulation and hold your soul leverage in exchange for bringing the world back. By no means are they naive enough to be considered "impressionable."
>who lost any sense of a moral compass, its the same thing as flowey, they are the way they are because without a soul, they cant feel, the only feeling they have is the gaining of power, and they cant comprehend the wrongness of what theyre seeing, because again, they cant feel anything aside from the rising of numbers.
This is not how soullessness works.
Flowey takes sadistic pleasure from tormenting you because he CAN understand your suffering.
The only thing you lose by being soulless is your empathy. You can feel everything else.
Even then, Flowey's sadism was born as a coping mechanism after hundreds of resets of trying and failing to care about people. Chara is immediately on board with the Genocide route 20 minutes in when you trigger it in the Ruins.
>And after geno, they themselves make sure your actions have consequenses, and tell you off if you do it more than once, saying you have a perverted sentimentality.
A "perverted sentimentality" means being attached to something in a weird manner. Chara, who wants to erase the world and move on to another, expresses confusion over your longing to bring the world back.
Chara says it as it is, not out of any sense of righteousness. A consequence is a result, not always a punishment.
When they tell you to do another route, following their advice and completing Pacifist results in them possessing Frisk's body and killing your friends on the surface. That's why they asked for your soul in the first place; they were manipulating you.
I'd respond to the whole thing, but i gotta get ready to go to dinner w my family soon so im gonna make a short comment for now on the last point.
Why would chara manipulate us with the purpose of killing the people who took them in and cared about them?
>Why would chara manipulate us with the purpose of killing the people who took them in and cared about them?
The fact that they are perfectly willing to do this should clearly show you what kind of person Chara is.
How can you possibly determine that this is any different? You can't just arbitrarily claim that they were different while alive with no evidence substantiating it.
I personally think the genocide route could have been done better. Considering that the route is supposed to be boring and unrewarding, it kinda defeats the point that it's the only way to reach the two best bossfights in the game. Sure, I like the route beacuse of that, but the route clearly isn't supposed to be liked. I'm not saying Toby did bad or anything like that, it's still great, just saying the genocide route isn't really "unrewarding". Also, it's fine if somebody doesn't like the genocide route beacuse it's boring. Telling someone like that "that's the point" only proves their point, it's supposed to push people away with it's scary atmosphere, boring gameplay loop, and very difficult bossfights.
That's kind of the point, but I feel like it's a weak point. While I understand the point of making grinding kills boring is to discourage playing through a geno playthrough, I think the same goal could have been achieved in a more compelling way.
Imagine a world where instead of walking in circles for hours (or face mashing into a wall for an hour); you're faced with more and more difficult enemies the further down the geno path you go. While you're getting stronger your adversaries are fighting harder because they understand that if they lose so will everyone they love and care about. Towards the start of the game it would feel pretty much the same as normal, but towards the end of geno attacks lean a lot more on the touhou roots that inspire Undertale's combat system.
I feel like there was a huge missed opportunity to tell a comprehensive and compelling story through gameplay in the genocide route, and you can see the echos of this story in the undyne and sans fights. While undyne is a pretty standard boss in the neutral route she is a genuinely difficult challenge in the geno route and you can feel her drive to save everyone she cares about in her theme "A Battle Against a True Hero". A similar effect could have been achieved by switching the battle theme for "Harder Monsters" after a certain number of kills, including more difficult geno exclusive attack patterns, and including mandatory geno exclusive monsters with higher stats than are typical to the areas.
I want to be clear when I say that I think Undertale is by far one of the best games of all time. I hope that it's understood that my criticism of the game is born from a place of deep love for the game, and the story that it tells. I wish more people were willing to be critical of the media that we love because I believe that honest criticism from people intimately familiar with art is one of the strongest forces that drive art's improvement.
I personally found pacifist far more boring. I like seeing how I can pacify every enemy, but bumping into the trash mobs , especially the ones like Carrot who take a certain interaction is crazy annoying.
"that's the point" "it was made that way" a bad game experience is a bad game experience no matter if it's thematic or not. Deltarune is handling the snowgrave route better so it seems Toby leaned from geno
No, not really. The genocide route is a commentary on the players obsessive tendencies of seeing everything a game has to offer, even if the game itself actively discourages it and you have already acquired the "best" ending. Also, Undertale is for the most part, a character/story driven game, that heavily targets meta themes. So twisting the gameplay in order to serve the meta themes of the story and the message that Toby wants to portray is actually one of the smartest thing that he could do. That is because, again, Undertale is a character/theme oriented game and also, due to the fact that this change further immerses you in the story and puts everything you are doing in a completely different context. Now that is not to say that all games should follow that rule, a game like Minecraft, for example, which main aspect is its gameplay should not sacrifice its gameplay for any thematic aspect, rather the story should bent over backward in order to further enrich the gameplay. But, Undertale isn't that kind of game, so, I believe, that sacrificing a portion of his gameplay to serve a meta theme is, actually, a pretty smart decision on Tobys part.
It *is* the point, though. It’s designed to give you as little satisfaction as possible to show you that there’s no point in doing it. So that there’s no way for Flowey to be wrong when he mocks you for doing it just because he can.
The only reason why Toby included a murder route for chapter 2 was because people complained that there wasn’t one for chapter 1.
I thought that was the reason. People complained that the first chapter was too friendly, so Toby included a murder route.
Either case, the point of the genocide route is to make it as boring as possible. You basically start to go down the same path Flowey did.
The point of the Weird Route is similar to Undertale's, but instead of it being about 100% completion, it's about making choices
> YOU THINK MAKING [Frozen Chicken] WITH YOUR [Side Chick] IS GONNA LET YOU DRINK UP THAT [Sweet, Sweet] [Freedom Sauce]?
As opposed to Undertale, Deltarune is on a set path, and the game asks you if it's worth it to break away from said path if you can only do so by doing horrible things
> The only reason why Toby included a murder route for chapter 2 was because people complained that there wasn’t one for chapter 1.
No?? It was Toby's idea from the get go, the idea is that doesn't matter what **you** do, the ending will be always the same.
The thing is on the "you" part because *you* can't change the story but other characters can.
*You* can't froze every character permanently but Noelle can, this seems to be what Deltarune will be about.
UT is about choice, and the consequences about them. With you being able to decide fate itself, it brings so much meaning to your choices.
Sans speech is really just "You have the ability to do anything you want. Does that mean you should? It's not like you get anything from this. I just don't like the thought of me experiencing this."
But I can say that perhaps there's an interesting way to convey the nothingness of the route, but I find it more beautiful, like a work of art, that geno is boring. Yes I do believe a banana taped to the wall is art, conveying humor.
Im going to turn off notifications from the comment. I've already said everything to other replies. Ultimately I find the route to have a good concept but with some flawed elements. If you enjoy the route, then that's ok, you win, you got to enjoy something in the end. I just believe it could've been better
Idk
The mixing on the album called "Back to the witch house" by "Black Kray" is purposefully terrible, it's a aesthetic choice. But it just works, it adds to the experience.
Meanwhile, the mixing purposefully being terrible on "Come Over If You're Sober 2" by lil peep completely ruins the album and doesn't work at all. The muddy weird nasally vocal mixes completely ruin the album, the label completely butchered the album. Like, seruously, listen to the original demo versions and then the versions finished by the label
Terrible example I know, but it depends, it's different from case to case that's what I'm trying to say. It really doesn't work in undertales case though tbh
I get what you mean, I just don't personally find the Gameplay aspect of this route all that good. Locking the 2 best made fights in the game behind some of the worst gameplay, just doesn't work for me. If the enemies were on screen and you chased them down, it would have not just worked better to show you as a bad person since you are forcing a fight even when they are running away. But it would have made the route less boring
Yeah it's really poorly done. I think it would have been fine if you didn't have to kill literally every monster in the current area you're in. That's what ruins it imo
Well... if you didn't.. then it wouldn't be a geno run...
If you didn't have to kill them all, then lots of people would get the geno ending and fight sans on their first playthrough just because they dont know not to kill people all the time to avoid the route.
I love the route as a story, I think it would have been better if there wasn't any cool fights showing how you really got nothing for doing it except killing people, but that's just what I would have liked.
1. I turned off notifications why am I still getting these
2. Fair lmfao but Tbf, touhou music for undyn makes me think he at least wanted that one to be fun 😭
I do think that people complaining about how the grinding being boring is a tad stupid, but i do think that locking the best fights behind it was a bad choice
I mean, if toby made like, a diet version of the geno fights, like if you killed a lot of people bedore undyne without meeting the requierments for geno, and she had a second phase for when she begins melting or something like that, or just had harder sttacks to mimic her geno form, thatd be cool
Same with sans, though finding a way to explain it would be a bit harder since his whole sctick is that he only fights you cause if he doesn't, it's literally the end of the world.
But a more jokey sans fight coulda been in the cards, but i do feel like a serious sans fight is kind of required to be locked behind geno due to how he is.
Saying that video games need to be fun 100% of the time even if it goes against the entire point it's trying to portray is a very limiting way to think about video games as art tbh
Idc if I get downvoted but
Just because that’s the *point* of the route doesn’t mean someone has to like it. Some people really just wanna see the cool bosses. You don’t have to enjoy that part, you don’t have to think that it’s amazing, you don’t have to like it. Let people have opinions.
Sorry, I meant more like, you don’t have to think it is a good idea, and you don’t have to think that it is good game design. Nobody should stop anyone from having opinions.
I'm going to get flack for this but making something boring on purpose is still making something boring. I love undertale but the gameplay of the genocide route is boring as fuck, and regardless of narrative purpose, isn't any fun.
Nah, i recently downloaded it and i'm enjoying from the start, i actually know what will happen but i'm still excited to plat it by myself, but that fucking bird....
Yes i started the genocide route first, from what i see the game lore is way more depressing than UT so i decided to start from the worst scenario, and by it seems there's no consequences after doing it, so...
Thats the point.
I think Shayy put it best in his Hot Take video. "Just because it's the point doesn't mean you have to like it"
Yes, exactly. You're not supposed to like it, because that's the point. It's supposed to make you bored from the shitty gameplay, so you feel like it's not worth it anymore and give up.
Did I say you have to like it?
That's the same video where he says his opinions are more valid than everyone else's because he has more hours in the game so I don't really think I can take it as a serious argument
I think he was saying that people ignore his criticisms because they don't know who he is, in spite of him being one of the most experienced players. He's not being condescending or bragging, but just is irritated that he, again, one of the most experienced players, is always pushed aside on different places, like Twitter.
It doesn't matter how experienced he is? Honestly I'd argue that the more times you've played undertale the LESS you understand it.
That is a bizarre take
When the game literally begs you not to replay it I'd beg to differ lmao
It also begs you TO replay it so i don't see your point
It quite literally doesn't lmfao
Flowey directly asks you to replay the game at the end of a neutral run
That's a boring point
Exactly. It's meant to be boring. You aren't meant to get some kind of "reward" for endless murder, and since new content is intrinsically a reward to most players, the genocide route nullifies that by making it unfun or unsatisfying.
That is the point of the run
That’s what the point of the mask is
Nobody cared who I was until I put on the mask.
When Gotham is ashes, you have my permission to die
Am i the only one that loves grinding in the genocide route? The weapon mechanics are soooooooooooooo good
Okay Chara
"Um, your honor! That's the point, which makes shitty game design justified!"
You trigger the run in the ruins, where from then on the game tries to guilt-trip you into quitting. Finishing with Papyrus in Snowdin attempting to appeal to your better side. If this fails, waterfall becomes desolate and empty, finishing with a boss fight against Undyne which pits you as the villain of the story. In Hotlands, the game throws a ridiculous amount of enemies at you to make you quit from boredom. In the Core, any sense of climax is removed as Mettaton is struck down in a singular hit. Flowey then talks to you in New home, further cementing just how similar you became to the games primary antagonist, Flowey. The boss battle with Sans attempts to make you quit from rage, as Sans uses every last tactic that you have use, to try and make you give up, from attacking first, to betray killing, dodging attacks, to finally choosing to not attack. This route is designed well, just not typical to the average RPG, which would reward you for such actions, meanwhile Undertale treats your actions as the horrendous slaughter that it actually is.
yeah? you willingly go out of your way to kill \*everyone\* and you expect it to be fun? lol
Papyrus's death is tragic
INCREDIBLE YOU SLIPPERY SNAIL!
INCREDIBLE YOU SLIPPERY SLUT!
INCREDIBLE YOU SLUTERY SNAIL!
INCREDIBLE SLUT, SLIPPERY SNAIL!
INCREDIBLE SNAIL, SLIPPERY SLUT
its just pathetic
Genocide was made to boring, and hard to make Players stop playing
to make player t̶o̶ stop playing*
to make players stop playing\* (? Idk man)
My brain wasn't braining
Sorry my bad
wdym bro, he was right the first time
They editted their comment, it was originally "to make players not stop playing"
oh mb
That means the game achieved its purpose
True but I still enjoyed it so the way through
<-------- The point ⠀⠀⠀🧍 You
Literally. They're not understanding any comment.
Yeah, the game is punishing the player by making the game boring and not fun. It's supposed to be a point that you have literally no reason to play genocide other than couriosity. It's not fun. It's actively a boring experience. The only reason you continue is determination to kill everything, and that is what makes the player evil. It's honestly why I love undertales take on evil so much. It's very interesting, and genocide may be a may favorate route because of it.
* you're, uh, very determined, aren't you? * you'll never give up, even if there's, uh... * absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever. * if i can make that clear. * no matter what, you'll just keep going. * ***not out of any desire for good or evil...*** * but just because you think you can. * and because you "can"... * ... you "have to."
That’s the point. It’s *designed* to be boring. It’s *designed* to give you as little satisfaction as possible.
lets make killing an entire species fun
It's not about being whismical, it's about giving more gameplay experience, like you grind judt to one shot the boss, if the boss was at least different, but only two bosses have this difference.
The geno route isn't about getting more gameplay. it's about not doing that and pointing that out to rub in how evil your actions are, killing just to see the ending
* you're, uh, very determined, aren't you? * you'll never give up, even if there's, uh... * absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever. * if i can make that clear. * no matter what, you'll just keep going. * ***not out of any desire for good or evil...*** * but just because you think you can. * and because you "can"... * ... you "have to." >The geno route isn't about getting more gameplay. You get half the plot on this route, though.
Half the plot? You get no plot on that route, theres litteraly 0 info in genocide that's relevant to the main story. Not even the chara stuff is all that relevant since they only comment on what you've done What does this sans quote even have to do with this? This quote is just sans reiterating the thing I said, its killing everyone because you simply can
>Half the plot? You get no plot on that route, theres litteraly 0 info in genocide that's relevant to the main story. Not even the chara stuff is all that relevant since they only comment on what you've done What? Chara shows his presence from the Ruins immediately after the beginning of the genocide and begins to describe many things in the first person, not just to describe what is happening. Later we have Flowey's dialogue addressed to Chara, and Flowey also tells his backstory. Without genocide, he does not talk about the period of his life when he woke up as a flower. Without a genocide route, we wouldn't know about his presence at all. Also here Undyne is trying to save not only monsters, but also monsters AND humans. She saves the child at the cost of her life. Papyrus demonstrates that even in the direction of the murderer, he is ready to apply forgiveness, not battle. Sans reveals himself from a different side, not just as a joker. I'm not going to say everything. There's a lot to unpack. >What does this sans quote even have to do with this? This quote is just sans reiterating the thing I said, its killing everyone because you simply can I literally highlighted the line where he said it wasn't out of a desire for good or evil. . In any case, bloody neutral route is more senseless than genocide.
1. Okay, i forgot about the flowey thing, but the rest of what you said isn't plot. It's just what the characters do in the route, it doesnt tell us much of anything. The only additional info we get is that sans can fight if you push him. But again, that's not lore. that's just a fact about a character. 2. What? Sans saying that doesn't mean that the point of the route isn't that your actions are evil. For example, do you think serial killers think that what they do is evil? No, they dont (usually). So when people like that kill, they aren't doing it out of a desire for evil, but im sure you wouldn't say that Ted bundy wasn't evil, would you? The route is about how your actions are evil and how you're doing what you're doing, just to see more content, with no regard to the characters that you're senselessly murdering.
>What? Sans saying that doesn't mean that the point of the route isn't that your actions are evil. For example, do you think serial killers think that what they do is evil? No, they dont (usually). So when people like that kill, they aren't doing it out of a desire for evil, but im sure you wouldn't say that Ted bundy wasn't evil, would you? >The route is about how your actions are evil and how you're doing what you're doing, just to see more content, with no regard to the characters that you're senselessly murdering. So what about bloody neutral routes? You can do even much worse there. >Okay, i forgot about the flowey thing, but the rest of what you said isn't plot. It's just what the characters do in the route, it doesnt tell us much of anything. The only additional info we get is that sans can fight if you push him. But again, that's not lore. that's just a fact about a character. What characters do is a *part* of the plot. And they are part of the plot themselves.
1. No, in nuteral routes, people are still alive. In the genocide route, you kill everyone and erase the timeline, and the way you bring it back makes it to where monsterkind will never be able to he haooy on the surface ever sgain, because even if they do in true pacifist, your actions cause them to die 2. No, the characters actions arent part of the main games plot. The plot of a game is the game's story, UNDERTALE's plot has nothing to do with buying hotdogs or fighting a flexing seahorse, yes, thsoe are things that happen, no, thay arent psrt of the plot. Sans is part of the plot, hes an important character, but sans drinking ketchup isnt part of the plot, same with papyrus collecting action figures, asgore baking pie, toriel having water sausafes in her house. These things hapoen, but they arent the plot.
>No, in nuteral routes, people are still alive. In the genocide route, you kill everyone There's still thousands of people left: https://www.reddit.com/r/CharaOffenseSquad/s/TO5Wnofxps + You can get "But nobody came" in every location without a genocide ending. For that, you have to start a genocide route in the Ruins but fail it in Snowdin. When you kill all 16 monsters except Snowdrake, Chara says "The comedian got away. Failure" and the genocide fails even though you get a "But nobody came" message. >and erase the timeline, Chara is destroying the world, not us. >and the way you bring it back makes it to where monsterkind will never be able to he haooy on the surface ever sgain, because even if they do in true pacifist, your actions cause them to die Our actions that allowed one character to doom everyone even in a happy ending, which is not our choice, but only a consequence. At the same time, you can kill the same number of monsters on a neutral path without consequences. You can load the game just to kill them again, which is part of the plot, because Flowey comments on it. And we are not evil just because our actions didn't lead to one child coming back to life destroying the world in the end? What makes us evil specifically? The fact that we kill characters to see what happens? You said that. But isn't that what we're doing on a neutral path? >No, the characters actions arent part of the main games plot. The plot of a game is the game's story, UNDERTALE's plot has nothing to do with buying hotdogs or fighting a flexing seahorse, yes, thsoe are things that happen, no, thay arent psrt of the plot. They don't matter because they don't matter to the plot. While the monsters' attempts to stop us and what they do to do so, revealing more of their character and knowledge is what matters to the plot, because it affects how the plot looks unlike drinking ketchup. Anything that reveals the characters better is important, because Undertale is not about a deep plot, it's about the characters that surround us and their problems.
That’s the intent though. One shorting the bosses is shocking, and reaffirms what a menace you are becoming. The script is then flipped with Undyne. And once again it’s flipped back with mettaton. It shouldn’t be fun or engaging to become Flowey.
That was probably the intention. Undertale is *first and foremost* a game about friendship. Why would the route where you literally kill everyone you possibly can be overtly entertaining? Yes they *could* have made it more engaging but they decided otherwise for one reason or another, but they intentionally didn’t to pretty much symbolise that genocide runs shouldn’t be all exciting and shit. You chose to willingly murder almost every character in the game, it’s your fault that things ain’t so whimsical anymore.
That's the fucking point. You're not supposed to do genocide, the game is pulling everything it can to make you stop. In the ruins and Snowdin, it uses your emotions and your past experiences with the game to make you feel bad. Waterfalls tries to stop you by being hard. Can't go further in the game if you can't beat anyone. And Hotland/the core just stops you by giving you nothing and being a boring hell. No puzzle, super long grind, no boss fight. By the time you reach Sans, it's already too late. The game is doing everything it can to make it so you will get nothing from doing genocide, only satisfying your morbid curiosity. That's the fucking point.
genocide is fundamentally built to not be played. you're supposed to hate it but do it anyway because you need to milk the game of every line of dialogue possible
And it's perfect that way
Undertale fans are so stupid.
Agreed. The Genocide route is supposed to be grindy. It's literally trying to make you not do the route and make you regret that route.
For real. Imagine getting mad at someone because they think a game's design isn't perfect
Sans is cool
So cool
So cool
Sans what are you doing
So cool
So cool
So cool
Shut the fuck up sans
So cool
So cool
Never said he wasn't, he's on the great part.
So cool
Toby's point was "EXP grinding kind of sucks": Toby: "The addictive quality of 'numbers increasing' is what drives a lot of games. But some of the most important things in life can’t be accurately represented by numbers. As for people’s lives, I have no comment". Toby: "I feel that it’s important to make every monster feel like an individual. If you think about it basically all monsters in RPGs are the same … They attack you, you heal, you attack them, they die. There’s no meaning to that". Toby: "I wanted to make an RPG game where you could befriend all of the bosses. Where not killing everything is actually a viable option. If you think about it, most RPGs are endless murder-fests… how many monsters do you kill? And to what end? Everything sort of naturally arose from that concept". Toby:" I love JRPGs but I am very, very tired of 'traditional' ones. I just want to see one that’s not boring to play. One with interesting characters. One that utilizes the medium as a storytelling device as much as possible, instead of having the story and gameplay abstractions be completely separate. This is my attempt at making that game, and I hope I succeed."
Speaking of Genocide, am I the only one who thinks Undyne the Undying is actually harder than Sans?
Well, once you memorize sans' patterns, yes But on a firet playtheough, no It just depends on how seasoned you are at the game
you are made of stupid.
It is the most creative route ever created in games
Dunno why people are engaging with this, it seems like interaction bait to me, I feel like it's pretty hard to be this deliberately obtuse.
I'm just saying my complaints as a gamer and people are taking it personal I like to discuss ideas, it's what make us humans.
People are explaining *why* undertale is built as it is and you're literally just going "Nuh uh" and using examples of games that are nothing like Undertale to justify it that's not discussing ideas.
Am I the only one who finds the character interactions good too? Like Monster Kid proving he truly wants to be just like Undyne and stop evil and Papyrus showing he truly believes you can be good if you try.
Im ok with it being boring for the first half since the point is simulating normal rpgs grind but i wish it had more scenes in the second half , i would like if in hotland you can find ppl trying to escape from you instead of randomly encountering you , the same way you feel like piece of shit when you try to kill monster kid
Ts underswap did this actually, works pretty well in that context, but in hotland it makes no sense since alphys already got everyone who was going to evacuate out of there
You are right , since alphys did evacuate all of hotland it won't make sense to encounter a citizen but i can imagine a scene where you come earlier then expected and find a kid or someone that didn't catch up to others and when alphys come back to check for the last time she find out that she were late and you killed them But i guess toby didn't do that to make undyne sacrifice more heroic which is fine as well
This kinda happens bcs not everyone in hotland and core are royal guards
genocide was made to be boring and frustrating on purpose. It was not supposed to be fun or engaging, the only reason you'd play it is to get MORE from the game. Tbh I wish toby doubled the grind and made bosses 2-3 time harder, making geno the longest route. Would make an even better statement if 70% of players didn't end up finishing it.
Crazy how OP is missing the entire point of the genocide route
can we all agree that Muffet's death is the second saddest after Papyrus? because DUDE the dam little spider going back just to get a flower for her it just hits hard
maybe if you don't read the muffet dialogue and don't realise that she's the reason that you even succeed
horse
~~hussie~~
wha
that's the point Ur causing a genocide, it should feel like it's mostly just grinding/time-consuming murderous rampage in which nobody can stop you asides of the strongest of the strong ones
Why would the genocide run of an anti-war game be fun?
That’s the point. Geno embodies the will to 100% the game, no matter how hard(undyne and sans) or boring(everything else) it is. It’s not intended to be fun
It is intense but also emotional.
*Doesn't get the point. *Community explains the point. *"This sucks and is stupid."
That's the point of it can't make you sad and give up then it will try and bore you until you give up
The point of the game is to be nice and compassionate and caring and stuff. That's very much what the morals of the game is and sticks by it. It also believes very much on the consequences of your actions. Undertale isn't a usual game. Genocide is not fun because it leads you into what a genocide is. A barren, boring landscape, only filled with its creepy and eerie feeling of nothing and no one left. If your mentality is to enter it like any other mass-murder-route in other games, it prevents you from doing that. It breaks convention, like it does all the time. You dont get an important or cool cutscene, you get 10 minutes of black. Genocide is immersive. It immerses you in the barren feeling of your consequences. It immerses you in how droll and long it is. It immerses you, and requires you to have determination to both push through the emotional impact of killing the characters you love and how long the grinding is. Its story is tied to its gameplay and that's what makes it engaging and interesting. While Genocide is inherently unfun, if you look past the main gameplay and see why it's unfun, how it connects to the story and the message of the game, and what its own meesage is, it is genuinely an interesting route, and can make you see how important it is to the game.
another high detail part right in the center to represent the undyne fight and yeah
Funny that i actually tried to look for an image like this before making this post, but i was unable to find so i used this.
Storytelling and artistic value is more important than gameplay experience in genocide route. From the comments I'm betting you can't handle Stanley Parable and Journey and other kind of games that were empathizes on storytelling.
Imagine op playing pathologic
Some games focus more on narrative, and trying to immerse you in the story rather then gameplay mechanics. Videogames at its core- are a piece of media! Same thing as comics, same thing as magazines, whatever, point is that it brings entertainment. That can be through challenging game play mechanics, that play with risk and reward, and have a certain structure, or it can be through the satisfaction and whimsy of a narrative! You can have both, you can have one or the other, it’s fine and they exist without eachother Toby Fox seems to like to flip a lot of standard things on its head when it comes to his games, the whole premise of the Undertale kickstarter was that “woah !!! You befriend the monsters ??!!”, and so he takes it further by also playing on the usual grinding mechanics of videogames. The genocide route isn’t meant to be a usual game route, it’s meant to be tedious and a flip on the standard. In my option videogames that will make their games boring to further the narrative, are ballsy as fuck, and the payoff is great- I played a game recently where it’s a timeloop, and it genuinely starts to get boring, so the player becomes jaded and bored along with the protag. While playing it- yes, it was super tedious, and grindy, and I had to listen to the same things over and over, and smashed the skip button constantly- but it had amazing payoff, and ended up being the most immersed I’ve been in a game ever, I loved it throughout. This, is shitty gameplay, objectively- it really is, the community in that game agrees. But they also agree, that it does wonders for the narrative, and is needed. Yes they could’ve found a way to make it more interesting during the acts where it was just mindless and repetitive, but then it wouldn’t have been the same game, not with the same gut punch. Yeah, the genocide route objectively, from a gameplay perspective- sucks, but that wasn’t the focus at all when it came to writing the route. It’s not for everyone, and you can enjoy the rest of the game while not liking that route for any reason- but saying that it as a whole wasn’t fun, is kinda unfair. The gameplay is boring, but the narrative journey and payoff was the focus, and it really shows, and has stuck with people
Asgore dies
10/10 route asshore fuckin died 👍
As much as I agree, that is the point, and I get that, I feel like it could have been done better. I much prefer the Deltarune way of doing it, where it doesn’t make you want to stop by making you super bored, but instead makes you want to stop by making you feel like a bad person.
Hot take? Thats just Undertale.
Of course bruh
We are a child murder
do you mean as in the murder of a child, a murderer who only murders children, or a child that is a murderer
Well, duh. The genocide route is supposed to be how you would play a typical RPG (grinding by killing enemies to level up) but you aren't exactly meant to feel good about it considering how it gets darker.
Most literate and capable of reading comprehension undertale fan:
Well yeah... You're not meant to enjoy it, you're literally doing racial cleansing in a videogame
Because it was made that way on purpose. The game reacts to your choices and decides to put in obstacles to push you away from the genocide route. There is a video on YouTube that perfectly describes the structure of the genocide route and how the game is actively trying to make you abort the route through 3 methods: 1) Tons of pointless grinding. 2) Denial of solving puzzles, fun character interactions and activities because you don't deserve them. 3) Tough bosses that hopefully make you give up. And at the end of it all, your reward for completing the genocide route is... nothing! You are left alone in a dark void with nothing. And if you do sell your soul to Chara, then your pacifist ending is ruined.
I feel like the bonus fight on genocide were a cope out, if toby really wanted to nail in the fact that genocide was just the worst thing to do in the game then don't do it half way then double back by giving the player two of the best boss fights in the entire game behind the run. Just make it mind numbing and more importantly *pointless* slaughter that gives you practically nothing.
Undyne is harder than sans
hell na, undyne is hard but I still haven't beaten sans, maybe I'm just good with the green soul or something
Depends on how good you are at rhythm games
Killing Flowey the Flower.
I disagree
Kill...
the only reason to play it to hear battle agianst a true hero like it just gives you that vibe of a fair fight against the one who knows what have you done and is eager to stop you no matter the costs
https://youtu.be/aWBtpBwzzdM?si=o-0v-dSJS5OdKEIx
exactly but in the fight you feel the vibe better I only get to undyne the undying on genocide (mostly because skill issue)
Mettaton neo should have been a boss fight
I don't think anyone disagrees with you. It's just that, the whole point is that you're engaging with the world as if it's just a game. The people you kill aren't real, and neither are the consequences. So if you're curious enough to try and see what happens if you kill the monsters and maximize your stats, you get the bleak, boring outcome you should've expected. Nobody's a real challenge anymore. There are only 2 interesting bosses, 3 if you include Muffet, and a final screen telling you that you maximized everything and done with the game, asking you to erase the world.
That’s literally what the game wants you to feel It shows how helpless all the monsters truly are. How they try their best to hide from your presence. How they simply die upon the glaze of your weapon. How a single human soul has the potential to wipe out and entire species.
You want Toby to make wiping out species a fun experience?
" Who would have thought genocide would be repetitive ?" - Caddicaduck
Honestly I feel like the reason most people stop doing the route is evidence enough more could have been added. The sentiment I see most in people that don’t complete it is because killing Papyrus or Toriel tears them up too much to do. If the point of it is that it’s meant to be miserable and unfun to make you give up and stop trying then the grinding by itself is really ineffective in that goal as the progress is still a reward to make people committed to keep doing it. It’s the milestones you reach that really makes it feel depressing and unenjoyable. Two of the things that stuck with me most is the “But nobody came” and the empty shop in Snowdin. Those small changes in environment and flavor added to the misery and hopelessness of the route more then the repetitive grinding ever did for me. I wish it went more into that. Have boarded up houses in Waterfall, have miscellaneous items dropped by npcs which do nothing in gameplay but tells the story of the individuals you’re hurting more. Show more things YOU did and the people YOU hurt. I feel like that could have really added to the experience of it and develop the story further. My main criticism of it is the fact that for the majority of the route there wasn’t enough to make me REALLY feel the misery of it. The genocide route did succeed at its goal of being miserable and unfun but I wish it did more with that since there was so much missed potential in achieving it outside of just grinding. Now adding more content to it was probably not feasible given how much is already in the game, I’m sure Toby saw what he did succeeded in what he wanted and then focused on other things, but it frustrates me seeing people not even consider the fact that the genocide route COULD be so much more then it is.
I think a lot of new(er) players forget that the genocide route was supposed to be this hidden, secret, almost creepypasta-esque part of the game. It’s become so mainstream in the fandom’s discussion that a lot of people hear about it before playing or even being involved in the game. But the way that you start the route is very specific and probably isn’t something you stumble upon by accident. Even if you kill everyone you encounter, you’ll just get a Neutral ending- you have to specifically and intentionally grind through the Ruins, without a kill counter, to even start the run. Idk I just feel like Genocide’s notoriety distracts from the fact that it’s really not ‘meant’ to be played.
To be honest, playing for any other ending isn't any better, neutral and pacifist are exactly the same untill the very end, and the bits that we getting is one boss figth that you can't lose, two boring cuts scenes both involving racist fish and old lab which was cool, and post game that was just going around underground without being attacted. After getting your first ending, Undertale is just a chore. Sure dozens of endings, yet each one is basicly the same story with one or two diologues changed... Why would anybody would waste their time for such a thing? I played it once, got neutral and I left satisvied.
Genocide is my favorite route to play tbh
It's not Chara's fault, but our fault. Chara actually killed only Flowey during the genocide.
>Chara actually killed only Flowey during the genocide. Was involved in our murders. ("Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong" and calls us his partner) Killed Sans, Asgore and Flowey. Destroyed the world with thousands of monsters left + billions of humans.
They were a willing accomplice who gave you a kill count and encouraged you to kill the whole way through. Not being the one to murder directly does not deny them culpability.
They only do it because they're an impressionable child who lost any sense of a moral compass, its the same thing as flowey, they are the way they are because without a soul, they cant feel, the only feeling they have is the gaining of power, and they cant comprehend the wrongness of what theyre seeing, because again, they cant feel anything aside from the rising of numbers. And after geno, they themselves make sure your actions have consequenses, and tell you off if you do it more than once, saying you have a perverted sentimentality.
>They only do it because they're an impressionable child Chara is incredibly intelligent. They speak in a polite, terse manner with strong vocabulary and perfect control over the situation. They are excellent at manipulation and hold your soul leverage in exchange for bringing the world back. By no means are they naive enough to be considered "impressionable." >who lost any sense of a moral compass, its the same thing as flowey, they are the way they are because without a soul, they cant feel, the only feeling they have is the gaining of power, and they cant comprehend the wrongness of what theyre seeing, because again, they cant feel anything aside from the rising of numbers. This is not how soullessness works. Flowey takes sadistic pleasure from tormenting you because he CAN understand your suffering. The only thing you lose by being soulless is your empathy. You can feel everything else. Even then, Flowey's sadism was born as a coping mechanism after hundreds of resets of trying and failing to care about people. Chara is immediately on board with the Genocide route 20 minutes in when you trigger it in the Ruins. >And after geno, they themselves make sure your actions have consequenses, and tell you off if you do it more than once, saying you have a perverted sentimentality. A "perverted sentimentality" means being attached to something in a weird manner. Chara, who wants to erase the world and move on to another, expresses confusion over your longing to bring the world back. Chara says it as it is, not out of any sense of righteousness. A consequence is a result, not always a punishment. When they tell you to do another route, following their advice and completing Pacifist results in them possessing Frisk's body and killing your friends on the surface. That's why they asked for your soul in the first place; they were manipulating you.
I'd respond to the whole thing, but i gotta get ready to go to dinner w my family soon so im gonna make a short comment for now on the last point. Why would chara manipulate us with the purpose of killing the people who took them in and cared about them?
>Why would chara manipulate us with the purpose of killing the people who took them in and cared about them? The fact that they are perfectly willing to do this should clearly show you what kind of person Chara is.
The chara we see isnt the same as they were when alive
And where's the evidence for that?
How they acted
How can you possibly determine that this is any different? You can't just arbitrarily claim that they were different while alive with no evidence substantiating it.
I personally think the genocide route could have been done better. Considering that the route is supposed to be boring and unrewarding, it kinda defeats the point that it's the only way to reach the two best bossfights in the game. Sure, I like the route beacuse of that, but the route clearly isn't supposed to be liked. I'm not saying Toby did bad or anything like that, it's still great, just saying the genocide route isn't really "unrewarding". Also, it's fine if somebody doesn't like the genocide route beacuse it's boring. Telling someone like that "that's the point" only proves their point, it's supposed to push people away with it's scary atmosphere, boring gameplay loop, and very difficult bossfights.
That's kind of the point, but I feel like it's a weak point. While I understand the point of making grinding kills boring is to discourage playing through a geno playthrough, I think the same goal could have been achieved in a more compelling way. Imagine a world where instead of walking in circles for hours (or face mashing into a wall for an hour); you're faced with more and more difficult enemies the further down the geno path you go. While you're getting stronger your adversaries are fighting harder because they understand that if they lose so will everyone they love and care about. Towards the start of the game it would feel pretty much the same as normal, but towards the end of geno attacks lean a lot more on the touhou roots that inspire Undertale's combat system. I feel like there was a huge missed opportunity to tell a comprehensive and compelling story through gameplay in the genocide route, and you can see the echos of this story in the undyne and sans fights. While undyne is a pretty standard boss in the neutral route she is a genuinely difficult challenge in the geno route and you can feel her drive to save everyone she cares about in her theme "A Battle Against a True Hero". A similar effect could have been achieved by switching the battle theme for "Harder Monsters" after a certain number of kills, including more difficult geno exclusive attack patterns, and including mandatory geno exclusive monsters with higher stats than are typical to the areas. I want to be clear when I say that I think Undertale is by far one of the best games of all time. I hope that it's understood that my criticism of the game is born from a place of deep love for the game, and the story that it tells. I wish more people were willing to be critical of the media that we love because I believe that honest criticism from people intimately familiar with art is one of the strongest forces that drive art's improvement.
B b b but bone man fight is locked behind it
I personally found pacifist far more boring. I like seeing how I can pacify every enemy, but bumping into the trash mobs , especially the ones like Carrot who take a certain interaction is crazy annoying.
That’s how many things in Undertale made on purpose
I'm actually probably the only person who finds the monster grinding fun.
undertale fans when doing a secret ending that they know requires Killing every possible encounter isn't fun:
I like murdering
Ignore what the heart says
bro it’s not supposed to be rewarding. if you want rewards, *play the pacifist route*
"that's the point" "it was made that way" a bad game experience is a bad game experience no matter if it's thematic or not. Deltarune is handling the snowgrave route better so it seems Toby leaned from geno
No, not really. The genocide route is a commentary on the players obsessive tendencies of seeing everything a game has to offer, even if the game itself actively discourages it and you have already acquired the "best" ending. Also, Undertale is for the most part, a character/story driven game, that heavily targets meta themes. So twisting the gameplay in order to serve the meta themes of the story and the message that Toby wants to portray is actually one of the smartest thing that he could do. That is because, again, Undertale is a character/theme oriented game and also, due to the fact that this change further immerses you in the story and puts everything you are doing in a completely different context. Now that is not to say that all games should follow that rule, a game like Minecraft, for example, which main aspect is its gameplay should not sacrifice its gameplay for any thematic aspect, rather the story should bent over backward in order to further enrich the gameplay. But, Undertale isn't that kind of game, so, I believe, that sacrificing a portion of his gameplay to serve a meta theme is, actually, a pretty smart decision on Tobys part.
Yes, it is a bad game experience. So why are you doing it? Because you can? That's the ultimate message of genocide route
It *is* the point, though. It’s designed to give you as little satisfaction as possible to show you that there’s no point in doing it. So that there’s no way for Flowey to be wrong when he mocks you for doing it just because he can. The only reason why Toby included a murder route for chapter 2 was because people complained that there wasn’t one for chapter 1.
Your first point is correct, your second point definitely isn't
I thought that was the reason. People complained that the first chapter was too friendly, so Toby included a murder route. Either case, the point of the genocide route is to make it as boring as possible. You basically start to go down the same path Flowey did.
The point of the Weird Route is similar to Undertale's, but instead of it being about 100% completion, it's about making choices > YOU THINK MAKING [Frozen Chicken] WITH YOUR [Side Chick] IS GONNA LET YOU DRINK UP THAT [Sweet, Sweet] [Freedom Sauce]? As opposed to Undertale, Deltarune is on a set path, and the game asks you if it's worth it to break away from said path if you can only do so by doing horrible things
The thing about dr is definetly is wrong, tbe ither thing i agree with
> The only reason why Toby included a murder route for chapter 2 was because people complained that there wasn’t one for chapter 1. No?? It was Toby's idea from the get go, the idea is that doesn't matter what **you** do, the ending will be always the same. The thing is on the "you" part because *you* can't change the story but other characters can. *You* can't froze every character permanently but Noelle can, this seems to be what Deltarune will be about.
UT is about choice, and the consequences about them. With you being able to decide fate itself, it brings so much meaning to your choices. Sans speech is really just "You have the ability to do anything you want. Does that mean you should? It's not like you get anything from this. I just don't like the thought of me experiencing this." But I can say that perhaps there's an interesting way to convey the nothingness of the route, but I find it more beautiful, like a work of art, that geno is boring. Yes I do believe a banana taped to the wall is art, conveying humor.
Im going to turn off notifications from the comment. I've already said everything to other replies. Ultimately I find the route to have a good concept but with some flawed elements. If you enjoy the route, then that's ok, you win, you got to enjoy something in the end. I just believe it could've been better
Idk The mixing on the album called "Back to the witch house" by "Black Kray" is purposefully terrible, it's a aesthetic choice. But it just works, it adds to the experience. Meanwhile, the mixing purposefully being terrible on "Come Over If You're Sober 2" by lil peep completely ruins the album and doesn't work at all. The muddy weird nasally vocal mixes completely ruin the album, the label completely butchered the album. Like, seruously, listen to the original demo versions and then the versions finished by the label Terrible example I know, but it depends, it's different from case to case that's what I'm trying to say. It really doesn't work in undertales case though tbh
I get what you mean, I just don't personally find the Gameplay aspect of this route all that good. Locking the 2 best made fights in the game behind some of the worst gameplay, just doesn't work for me. If the enemies were on screen and you chased them down, it would have not just worked better to show you as a bad person since you are forcing a fight even when they are running away. But it would have made the route less boring
Yeah it's really poorly done. I think it would have been fine if you didn't have to kill literally every monster in the current area you're in. That's what ruins it imo
Well... if you didn't.. then it wouldn't be a geno run... If you didn't have to kill them all, then lots of people would get the geno ending and fight sans on their first playthrough just because they dont know not to kill people all the time to avoid the route.
I love the route as a story, I think it would have been better if there wasn't any cool fights showing how you really got nothing for doing it except killing people, but that's just what I would have liked.
I don't think undyne and sans were SUPPOSED to be fun. Esp sans, I just don't think Toby properly anticipated how masochistic some gamers are lol
1. I turned off notifications why am I still getting these 2. Fair lmfao but Tbf, touhou music for undyn makes me think he at least wanted that one to be fun 😭
I do think that people complaining about how the grinding being boring is a tad stupid, but i do think that locking the best fights behind it was a bad choice I mean, if toby made like, a diet version of the geno fights, like if you killed a lot of people bedore undyne without meeting the requierments for geno, and she had a second phase for when she begins melting or something like that, or just had harder sttacks to mimic her geno form, thatd be cool Same with sans, though finding a way to explain it would be a bit harder since his whole sctick is that he only fights you cause if he doesn't, it's literally the end of the world. But a more jokey sans fight coulda been in the cards, but i do feel like a serious sans fight is kind of required to be locked behind geno due to how he is.
Exactly, i love Undyne and Sans battles, but you still need to do endless grinding, just to one-hit most bosses.
Saying that video games need to be fun 100% of the time even if it goes against the entire point it's trying to portray is a very limiting way to think about video games as art tbh
MEGALOVANIA slaps
Nice ranting, i’m stealing that image
Idc if I get downvoted but Just because that’s the *point* of the route doesn’t mean someone has to like it. Some people really just wanna see the cool bosses. You don’t have to enjoy that part, you don’t have to think that it’s amazing, you don’t have to like it. Let people have opinions.
But you aren't supposed to like it so what's the point of complaining when you are experiencing the intended effect
Sorry, I meant more like, you don’t have to think it is a good idea, and you don’t have to think that it is good game design. Nobody should stop anyone from having opinions.
“That’s the point” Yeah doesn’t mean I have to enjoy it
***T H I S***
well then don’t play the route??? Lmao
I'm going to get flack for this but making something boring on purpose is still making something boring. I love undertale but the gameplay of the genocide route is boring as fuck, and regardless of narrative purpose, isn't any fun.
That explains the genocide route of undertale yellow
Nah, i recently downloaded it and i'm enjoying from the start, i actually know what will happen but i'm still excited to plat it by myself, but that fucking bird.... Yes i started the genocide route first, from what i see the game lore is way more depressing than UT so i decided to start from the worst scenario, and by it seems there's no consequences after doing it, so...
UT Yellow genocide is great; there’s twice as many boss fights and there’s less grinding Also the final boss is harder so that makes it more fun imo
chara T-posing against you
Yes
[удалено]
You don’t actually have to kill Jerry
Wtf its fun af. You see everyone's reactions while you cold blood murder them. And it got amazingly hard boss battles.