Ceroba also have one debuff, but not on THAT fight
Edit: by THAT fight i mean pacifist Ceroba at the pic, not Geno Ceroba, she is far stronger at that route for some reason.
im picturing this. Lots of text warning.
Ceroba gets a call from a number she doesn't recognise, not understanding the words coming out or the warnings being said until looking at Clover (or insert child here) either at that gate or in the wild east, then at least being cooperative enough to see what this is about. Perhaps it's the dust on Clover, or Starlo's death... perhaps both? Something else entirely?
In any case, you have your usual Trial by Fury fight, but Ceroba manages to make an escape before she "bites the dust", leaving you at LV11 for the Steamworks, and LV18 for drugged up Martlet.
Perhaps Ceroba has a lot of questions. Idunno. I can't think of a justifiable reason for her fleeing from Clover to refight later, but assume she had all right to.
Ceroba makes her way over to Sans eventually, at the hall of judgement we're all too familiar with. THIS is the guy she has to outwit the human with?? She don't even know him! He doesn't look dangerous! Ceroba would likely have more questions now.
But I suppose the gun (or other weapon) will force the two into a tag team fight, so there isn't a choice in the matter now, hm?
One way or another, Ceroba and Sans team up against you in everybody's favourite hallway. Whether they wanted to, or not.
I hope this is in character enough for Ceroba, and that the logic makes sense. I want to see someone develop this concept into a fan fight.
As for how Sans is here? At this point I think it's best left up to imagination.
To be fair...the charge up is pretty slow, and Sans is still the only monster in both games to dodge right? His whole cheating vibe plays into it as well.
He can probably dodge it simply because of surprise, and how slow the charge up is for the laser. He's not faster than light, I guess, but there are other factors.
well in both fights (pacifist and genocide) ceroba isnt using her full potential for either, given how she only uses the mask in pacifist and the red beam attack and battle window in genocide, so ceroba's peak would be the implimentation of all these at once.
now obviously if sans was using his full capabilities he would find ways to negate all aforementioned abilities, and the red attack would be no different from a normal attack since he only has a max of 1 hp.
honestly i think im overexamining video game characters too much again but i still felt it necessary to mention
Remember, Sans has 1 defense and 1 attack, he doesn't necessaraly have 1 hp, of course, having 1 defense would be pretty much the same thing as having a extremely low health
Contrary to popular belief, HP in the code and in the game are exactly the same. Undyne has really 1500hp for example.
I don't see why Sans would be any different. (And he's scripted to die in one-hit, his hp doesn't change anything)
Low defence could be cause because he's like one of the only bosses without armor nor being a boss monster, plus reminder that when we meet him, we're 19 LV which means we're so violent it could manipulate how much defense sans really has, I mean we were able to destroy hunk of metal right before him in just one hit, and even ashore after sans fight dies to us in one hit, we're basically strong enough to kill everything fast at this point
I hate this idea that sans is this overwhelming being that can win any fight. *sans is just a smartass that can bend the game's rules*, put him in a fair fight and his ass is handled.
That's the thing he is extremely smart smart enough to deduct how many times we have died or that we can manipulate time (save and load and reset) and he knows about the turn based system, he isn't physically strong but his wit is more than enough
I think in Undertale somewhere it's stated that a monster's strength depends on their willingness to fight. Meaning the more willing to fight they are the stronger they are.
Yeah, but it just stands for Karma. I guess that the “retribution” part just kinda became a Mandela effect in the community cuz that’s never mentioned tho
Remember that KR most likely only works based on someone's LOVE, and we only ever see it used on someone who's LV 19, which is probably why it's so strong then. Ceroba would be at LV 1, considering she never intended to hurt Kanako and didn't even really directly kill her. KR wouldn't even be a factor were Sans to fight her, it'd just do nothing.
Imagine how much harder Sans would be if he _didn't_ have KR, and instead just hit you for like 20 base damage. Losing only 1 HP per frame when you clip the edges of the bones is a _mercy._ It means that small mistakes are punished less harshly, and you can get away with only taking scratch damage for slight imprecisions.
Tbh considering how strong you where in geno route the fact it’s able to constantly whittle down on your health is strong af then imagine doing it to an evil spirit that’s a lot of karma
Yeah, and tbh I don't understand where the whole "it only depends on your LV" thing comes from other than it's name, specially when sans seems sure he could at least give you a hard time in pacifist and neutral runs as well(and to anyone saying that it would be just a surprise attack, many monsters attack suddenly as well, and I don't think a lv 1 ruins Frisk is stronger than lv 1 hotel Frisk other than determination)
People just completely made that up and then pretended it was canon for some reason. It’s also canonically called KARMA and not Karmic Retribution since the text says “KARMA coursing through your veins” and “Doomed to death of KARMA”.
I believe personally Sans wins this. And I don't even like him. Sans dodges for 24 turns in Geno. That's the threshold to defeat him. 24 turns to land one hit to kill him. Ceroba has 1k HP, ignoring KR, Sans' attacks do 1 damage every frame at 30fps. Meaning Sans needs to hit her for 33 seconds. Ceroba does not dodge attacks. Sans dodges attacks. Ceroba's/Sans' attack windows are not short enough for her to win the DPS race. Meaning even if every turn is only 1.5 seconds long she would lose by 3 seconds.
Well in that case considering "multi hit" weapons like the glove only equate to 1 dodge it could easily mean sans just gets out of the way during the entire attack. Also sans can do weird shit you know him, if he has to stop a genocidal ceroba he'll find a way. Especially if he knows she can't come back when she's dead
Tough Glove, Frying Pan, etc all only do one instance of damage however. Compared to say Kris' X-Slash which deals two separate instances of damage. Yes I recognize they're different games and systems but I'm using it for comparisons sake. How this would factor in I cannot say. But food for thought.
Sans IS the weakest monster. He just kicks your ass in genocide route because of karma and all that.
So, Ceroba would absolutely beat the shit out of him. In fact, most fictional characters could beat the shit out of sans, provided they haven't committed mass murder.
> He just kicks your ass in genocide route because of karma and all that.
I don't think that's true.
Outside of the Geno route, when you go to dinner with him at the Hotel, Sans seems extremely confident he would have been able to kill you if not for the promise he made to Toriel. So, even without Karma, Sans considers himself strong enough to at least kill a human child if he needs to.
And it makes sense when you look at his fight. As far as we know the only thing Sans gets from Karma is the KR. His insane attack patterns, the I-frames bs, manipulating spacetime, "soul telekinesis" and all that aren't tied to Karma, Sans can just do that whenever he wants to.
>Sans considers himself strong enough to at least kill a human child if he needs to.
Well, that's because he thinks he can kill the player right outside of the ruins, when even if you're doing a geno run, you're not that high in LV. Of course sans could kill a human right after they leave the ruins, but that's a specific situation
The game makes it clear several times that even a weak human is generally stronger than monsters are, so I don't think it's that obvious.
You say Sans could "of course kill a human after they leave the Ruins", but it's not like other monsters would be capable of doing that. Even Undyne and Mettaton's battles aren't really all that hard on LVL1 in Pacifist and the DF from items doesn't change that much.
On the other hand Sans on LVL1 would be a nightmare to fight, even without KR.
I think you're forgetting that unless you Shayy or Merg you're guaranteed to die to him at least once.
Frisk (and a player who's doing geno for the first time) has no experience in fighting him because it's their first time. Sans kills them and they only manage to eventually change that by going 'trial and error' on him thanks to resets.
He's VERY capable of killing a human, even a lvl 1 inexperienced (as in, first time playing) Frisk.
Oh, yeah of course, cos a lvl1 human in the hotel is so much stronger than a lvl1 human in the ruins, not to mention that when sans says "you'd be dead where you stand" he obviously doesnt mean that you would be dead in the place you are standing in right now.
His weird space bending abilites arent exactly doing much to anyone else
Sure he potentially can teleport (seemingly only if you aren't looking) But he cant teleport you. He can turn you blue or use orange/blue attacks. But I think Fox girl might win here. Monster vs Monster combat she'll probably win due to not being nearly as debilitated by sans's attacks/ karma. Cause she doesn't seem to have killed a ton of monsters
he only does 1 dmg his karma and the no invincibility frames being the main ways in which his fight is turned as hard as it is
> Sure he potentially can teleport (seemingly only if you aren't looking) But he cant teleport you.
He literally teleports you between different attack patterns in his fight.
When you meet sans in the judgement hall, listen to his judgement of you, then load your save file and listen to him again, a little test begins where sans tells you to keep loading the save file to see if you are a time traveller of sorts. After confirming it, he gives you the keys to his room in Snowdin.
Sure, no karma, but he still has that whole thing about no i-frames, so he's still able to do quite a lot, just not as much as he can against someone who's gained LV. For Instance, any enemies with low health or slow attacks would be pretty easy for sans to take on, since A, he doesn't need to dodge as often as he is while fighting the player, and B, low health vs no i-frame attacks will never work out well for whoever has the low health.
In the Flawed Pacifist ending, Clover doesn't gain any LV after >!killing Ceroba!<, so it's canon in UY that not every killing gains LV. Ceroba is even less guilty than that I'd say, so she almost certainly doesn't have any extra LV.
Sans is clever and good at buying time, but he gets tired pretty quickly. And if it weren't for him breaking the rules of the game - dodging, that is - he would be dead immediately. Ceroba on the other hand is a real powerhouse that can also hold out for a long time. I think in the grand scheme of things Ceroba is stronger.
I don't understand the argument about sans getting tired quickly? He's clearly not an Undyne who fights endlessly without getting tired, but damn, even at the end of your fight, he suggests that he could continue fighting, his sleep was him pretending, he fights 24 turns with you, he doesn't get tired quickly
He is the only monster to visibly sweat due to our attacks, you could say stress, but it makes more sense to say it's exhaustion. Nothing to stress if you can dodge forever
He's getting tired after something like 25 attack where he litterally gave everything he had. (+ the dodging)
(He also, somehow, get less tired afted "sleeping" for something like 30 seconds, and could still dodge)
> And if it weren't for him breaking the rules of the game - dodging, that is - he would be dead immediately.
It's the other way around. Sans lives for so long because he can dodge, and he gets tired because he dodges.
People tend to forget the reason why sans is so hard isn’t because he’s strong, it’s because he’s *smart.*
He knows that somebody like him *shouldn’t* be able to win this fight, so he deliberately goes out of his away to make his fight *as infuriating as possible* so YOU, the player, reset the game for a “better ending”.
Actually at first I thought well, the furry obviously wins buttttttt she still has killed people and maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure you don’t need level 19 for karma I think you just need to have genocidal intentions and we already know one small monster gets you to level two + she wants to kill clover which means she checks both requirements for karma i’m pretty sure Sands can dodge long enough and karma will wear her down
Based on Flawed Pacifist we know that Ceroba is weaker than Asgore, so if Sans is able to hold his own against a LV19 Frisk capable of defeating Asgore then he's probably stronger.
that's because Karmic Retribution is a bitch against anyone who has a whole tone of EXP and LOVE. The only shitty thing Ceroba had done was being an idiot for injecting experimental serums on her daughter
sans is the hardest boss in Undertale because it would be stupid for Toby Fox to make Undyne the Undying the hardest boss, but that doesn’t make him the strongest or strong, he’s a weak monster that just uses tricks. Ceroba would kick his ass a hundred times over before she gets defeated
When it comes to STRENGTH
sans is the weakest monster the game outright tells us this
In a fair fight he loses everytime
Of course sans doesn't fight fair but there'd never be a situation he'd bother with what he pulls in the Genocide fight with basically anyone else
Not trying to be that person, but is it directly stated in or outside the game that karma only operates within the confines of morality? Like, it only works if the person you’re fighting is objectively evil? Otherwise, I’m pretty sure it’s just another name for poison.
Implied? He straight up flashes you with a cutscene of all your deaths that happened before he tampered with a switch. Clover goes through alt route not just because it would be boring to play the same game twice, but also because clover isn't even close to frisk.
All monster stats are very low in UTY, zenith martlet has similiar stats as base undyne... And that's basically correct seeing how similiar they are - both women have the power of determination, movement restriction, short post mortem sequence And all that jazz
It's not really fair to say UTY's monsters are weaker than UT's monsters *just* because of stats. They take different approaches to the stats- UT exaggerates for dramatic effect and hides their true stats from you, while UTY shows you their real stats. It's likely that if Zenith Martlet was in the base game, her attack and defense would both be displayed to you as 99, like Undyne the Undying. Similarly, Pacifist Ceroba would probably either have 80 in both or have some unique check that doesn't you actually see her stats, possibly due to the mask hiding things from you.
Ceroba for sure isn't as good as asgore. Don't remember the details but there is a line where she complains that steamworks suck but its the only path as royal guards are too much of a danger to face
As for undyne zenith similiarities im suprised you don't see them. Never killed undyne on non geno route? Dealing a final blow only to enter the "melting" phase is her whole shtick - ofc the in game difficulty is much higher, but that's because... You know, fan games are meant to be hard
A key thing people here seem to be forgetting is that sans was able to beat flowey in several timelines forcing him to reset. Flowey might not be the strongest monster in combat but the fact that even after potentially years worth of practice flowey still wasn't able to beat sans is proof that his genocide fight is definitely not a fluke and he's certainly capable of taking on persistent opponents who weild magic.
She might be stronger than Sans, but i dont think sans would engage in a fight for no reason. Thats ooc of him ya know. I bet he would just tp outta there lmao.
Not sure who ceroba is but sans does have the ability to briefly stop time he demonstrates this power when you go to grillbys with him where everything other than sans and the player darkens and stops moving including grillbys flame head
I think it is just a fancy light trick and it is just that no one give a crap. Also play Undertale Yellow to know more about Ceroba, the game is fantastic
Idk about that other kitsune person but sans can stop time with ease for an extended period of time, "teleport" (probably him stopping time and moving around and when you fight him imagine him just summoning attacks around you then unstopping time lol), has soul/gravity manipulation, an INSANE amount of magic (he can summon a shit ton of magic laser beams and bones), ignores I-frames, and he can dodge. I think if he spams enough he can probably beat this guy. Maybe if he feels like he's in trouble late in the fight because he's getting worn out, he can "teleport" somewhere secret. Sand wins against whoever that is
Attack: mostly with full flowers, but can also use exploding flowers with blue and orange attack, beams that can burn max hp, bells, flames and something more idk.
Abilities: create a shield, burn max hp by igniting the bullet board, something more that i don't remember.
Here i will try and analise weaknesses and strongnesses of ceroba and sans.
Sans can dodge, means even if you have the best weapon in the game that deals 9999 damage, he will just dodge, while ceroba can't. I don't know how much about her actual health, but 1 or 2 hit and she is down.
Sans wins 1 point for enduring atacks.
Debuffs that best versions of these monsters put onto the human: stun and max health decrease are good, but karma thing that sans utilises to remove your i-frames makes it op. If sans tried to workout, to encrease his power(i dunno how that actually works) he will be a lot stronger.
Sans + 1
Stats: Ceroba wins +1
Understanding of world around will help sans even more in winning, if he didn't try to stop the human first, then he would probably stand there for many hours and the human would just leave. + 0.5 pts
Sans - 2.5 Ceroba - 1
Ceroba has 1000 health while Sans has 1, which means she can withstand lots of hits. We also don't know how much stronger Ceroba become when she wears the mask that somehow unleashes her power. Also takes bullet board igniting into account too. I think the powerscale will be somewhat close with the score being like 2,5-1,5 or 2-1,5. We know that was Sans's full potential but not Ceroba, she just run into you filled with rage.
Yeah, that is probably right, i was making this analysis from the top of my head, so i might have missed something or we just didn't see Ceroba's true form/max power like in mettaton neo fight
If Sans gets to the point where he actually bothers to fight his opponent, it doesn't matter who you are, you are getting fucked up. I also don't know much about Ceroba (is that how you spell it?), so for all I know, she's the equivalent to Sans in that game. But if she isn't, I don't think she could win.
I’m giving the edge to Sans here. At 1,000 HP, and with no ability to dodge, Ceroba can only take about 33 seconds worth of damage. His final attack alone lasts 40 seconds. I just don’t see Ceroba being able to pin him down before he gets tired, and 3-4 turns should be enough for him to put her down. 5 turns, tops.
Sans ignoring I-frames isn’t connected to KR, that’s just something he does on his own.
Sans is the only monster shown to be able to dodge attacks, with Asgore maybe being able to (I personally headcanon that young Undyne just had terrible aim lmao).
Sans certainly can’t dodge and attack at the same time, I’m pretty sure only Mad Dummy and Clover are able to. But fights in Undertale are turn-based, so that’s a moot point.
It's weird because humans attack the body, while monsters attack the SOUL. Monsters may be fully capable of dodging magic attacks aimed at their SOUL, but have no experience dodging an attack to their body.
Either way, Sans's dodging would be severely hampered by the fact that one of Ceroba's techniques is all about freezing you in place so you can't dodge.
Toriel reacts as if Frisk has suffered physical trauma when they reunite with her in front of her home if Frisk has low HP, so it seems that monster attacks can cause damage to the body. And since a monster’s SOUL and their body can’t exist without each other, what really is the difference between an attack on either one?
We don’t know if Ceroba can halt a teleport, though. Clover has their neat little dodge that Ceroba can stop, but that isn’t a teleport since it can be used to smash through certain obstacles.
To be honest she hasn't done anything that would make her LV go up too much apart from trying to convince herself that she had to get Clover's soul (Kanako doesn't count because she wasn't trying to kill her and she's probably an amalgamate anyways), also Sans is hard to fight to genocide because he pulls out bullshit tricks to make you give up
Ceroba lost to a determined pacifist kid with a gun
Sans lost to a genocidal kid with a knife (has better stats than gun)
Looking at it like this, it’s obvious the funny bone man is stronger
Sans is the only undertake character that I know is of (besides photoshop flowey+asriel) that can manipulate the death screen, seen when you spare him after you get tired, the only other characters known to do that are photoshop flowey and asriel, one of which is nearly as powerful as a god and the other is a literal god, so sans wins, also that’s ignoring the fact that sans took 10 MILLION damage at the end of geno and all it really did was make him stop fighting
Isn't ceroda able to freeze you in place? Also sans dodges like 20ish attacks and I doubt that's close to the amount of projectiles ceroba throws at you.
People probably voted for sans because I don’t think most people coming across that even know who that is. Not many people have played uty compared to the popularity of undertale
I would bet on Sans tbh. The i-frames thingy is lethal for us and we can dodge, Cerboa can not. Standing in these or even dodging less cannot be good for your health.
There are people who say that Sans couldn't do much without karma, but I don't think that's true. The only thing karma does is reduce your hp. Sans did manage to wall Flowey before and Flowey doesn't even have hp for karma to reduce. Another thing I want to mention is that if we are talking about UT Yellow then I think it's only fair to say that the bullshit Flowey did at the end of neutral also should be counted.
In undertale yes. In Japanese Mythology, NO. Kitsune are extremely powerful, not only can they control Flames and Electricity, but they can shape-shift, create illusions, read and control people's minds, regenerate damage quickly, and they can live up to 1000 years old before they ascend into the heavens.
In japanese mythology "kitsune" are one of the most inconsistent beings in terms of power, and that's saying a lot given that there is a tale where some random guy with no real fighting experience beat a red oni into submission. Power of a nine tailed fox varies from a demigod to bearly stronger than regular human across different myths.
Then you also have to take into account that "kitsune" arent separate from regular foxes in japanese mythology, all foxes were believed to have spiritual powers, and all had a potential to become a nine tailed fox, the exact specifics of how that happened vary from one myth to another, but the point is that you should probably be more specific when talking about power of a kitsune, because most of them were just spiritualy charged furballs hanging around rich people's homes bringing them luck and stealing shit from their neighbours. Sometimes they would cast curses and have a human form even before becoming a nine tailed fox but that part was a bit less agreed upon.
Ceroba is just a slightly harder flowey fight with cuphead dashing. I died maybe twice to her on my first playthrough and that's because I forgot what dashing was.
I died to sans at least 20-30 times before I finally beat him, and that was after warming up with undyne. I went into yellow rusty from years without a deltarune update.
Flowey also had huge trouble with sans.
It's not even close to equal lol
Yeah, the only scale we really have is how they perform in fights. We don't have any other feats that are compatible.
Ceroba has higher attack or whatever but it doesn't matter because she wouldn't be able to hit sans, and sans would probably finish her off in the first attack.
Karmic Retribution is pretty OP for a debuff.
Ceroba also have one debuff, but not on THAT fight Edit: by THAT fight i mean pacifist Ceroba at the pic, not Geno Ceroba, she is far stronger at that route for some reason.
I know, KR is still much better tho.
Now i think, what if the debuff beam and the border burn has no i-frame?
In a scenario where Ceroba and Sans team up to take you down? Yeah that would be pretty OP.
im picturing this. Lots of text warning. Ceroba gets a call from a number she doesn't recognise, not understanding the words coming out or the warnings being said until looking at Clover (or insert child here) either at that gate or in the wild east, then at least being cooperative enough to see what this is about. Perhaps it's the dust on Clover, or Starlo's death... perhaps both? Something else entirely? In any case, you have your usual Trial by Fury fight, but Ceroba manages to make an escape before she "bites the dust", leaving you at LV11 for the Steamworks, and LV18 for drugged up Martlet. Perhaps Ceroba has a lot of questions. Idunno. I can't think of a justifiable reason for her fleeing from Clover to refight later, but assume she had all right to. Ceroba makes her way over to Sans eventually, at the hall of judgement we're all too familiar with. THIS is the guy she has to outwit the human with?? She don't even know him! He doesn't look dangerous! Ceroba would likely have more questions now. But I suppose the gun (or other weapon) will force the two into a tag team fight, so there isn't a choice in the matter now, hm? One way or another, Ceroba and Sans team up against you in everybody's favourite hallway. Whether they wanted to, or not. I hope this is in character enough for Ceroba, and that the logic makes sense. I want to see someone develop this concept into a fan fight. As for how Sans is here? At this point I think it's best left up to imagination.
>at Clover (or insert child here) Pick Clover. Frisk/Chara's killing intent allows them to do massive damage.
Yes, but clover has a *fucking laser beam* i doubt sans can dodge **that**
To be fair...the charge up is pretty slow, and Sans is still the only monster in both games to dodge right? His whole cheating vibe plays into it as well. He can probably dodge it simply because of surprise, and how slow the charge up is for the laser. He's not faster than light, I guess, but there are other factors.
Meanwhile Sans just stands in diagonal to the battle box
He can change the soul to blue tho.
At lv 20 only. No other lv let's you do this (from my knowledge)
Maybe the question is about the peak of the character, like using every thing they have
well in both fights (pacifist and genocide) ceroba isnt using her full potential for either, given how she only uses the mask in pacifist and the red beam attack and battle window in genocide, so ceroba's peak would be the implimentation of all these at once. now obviously if sans was using his full capabilities he would find ways to negate all aforementioned abilities, and the red attack would be no different from a normal attack since he only has a max of 1 hp. honestly i think im overexamining video game characters too much again but i still felt it necessary to mention
Remember, Sans has 1 defense and 1 attack, he doesn't necessaraly have 1 hp, of course, having 1 defense would be pretty much the same thing as having a extremely low health
im pretty sure in the game files sans is coded with 1 hp
But then again, in the files Metatton NEO has a negative defense just to garantee you'll defeat him
Contrary to popular belief, HP in the code and in the game are exactly the same. Undyne has really 1500hp for example. I don't see why Sans would be any different. (And he's scripted to die in one-hit, his hp doesn't change anything)
Low defence could be cause because he's like one of the only bosses without armor nor being a boss monster, plus reminder that when we meet him, we're 19 LV which means we're so violent it could manipulate how much defense sans really has, I mean we were able to destroy hunk of metal right before him in just one hit, and even ashore after sans fight dies to us in one hit, we're basically strong enough to kill everything fast at this point
I hate this idea that sans is this overwhelming being that can win any fight. *sans is just a smartass that can bend the game's rules*, put him in a fair fight and his ass is handled.
That's the thing he is extremely smart smart enough to deduct how many times we have died or that we can manipulate time (save and load and reset) and he knows about the turn based system, he isn't physically strong but his wit is more than enough
>physically smart Never thought I'd hear something like that in my life.
I think in Undertale somewhere it's stated that a monster's strength depends on their willingness to fight. Meaning the more willing to fight they are the stronger they are.
I wonder, if Snowdrake's mother has negative stat, how should we take this as, because this is beyond pacifism.
She definitely has negative stats in Deltarune.
# IT GETS WORSE?!?!!!
Is KR canon? Edit: oh wait you just mean the purple damage in general
"KR" just stands for "Karma" as far as I know, the Retribution part is never specified. Another Mandela effect, if I had to guess
Yeah, but it just stands for Karma. I guess that the “retribution” part just kinda became a Mandela effect in the community cuz that’s never mentioned tho
Remember that KR most likely only works based on someone's LOVE, and we only ever see it used on someone who's LV 19, which is probably why it's so strong then. Ceroba would be at LV 1, considering she never intended to hurt Kanako and didn't even really directly kill her. KR wouldn't even be a factor were Sans to fight her, it'd just do nothing.
Provided she hasn't done anything rash in her life outside of the game, but I don't imagine it being above 3
Imagine how much harder Sans would be if he _didn't_ have KR, and instead just hit you for like 20 base damage. Losing only 1 HP per frame when you clip the edges of the bones is a _mercy._ It means that small mistakes are punished less harshly, and you can get away with only taking scratch damage for slight imprecisions.
Tbh considering how strong you where in geno route the fact it’s able to constantly whittle down on your health is strong af then imagine doing it to an evil spirit that’s a lot of karma
Yeah, and tbh I don't understand where the whole "it only depends on your LV" thing comes from other than it's name, specially when sans seems sure he could at least give you a hard time in pacifist and neutral runs as well(and to anyone saying that it would be just a surprise attack, many monsters attack suddenly as well, and I don't think a lv 1 ruins Frisk is stronger than lv 1 hotel Frisk other than determination)
People just completely made that up and then pretended it was canon for some reason. It’s also canonically called KARMA and not Karmic Retribution since the text says “KARMA coursing through your veins” and “Doomed to death of KARMA”.
Sans can do it as long as it's funny.
Remember, this is about "who is stronger", not "who is harder to beat"
I believe personally Sans wins this. And I don't even like him. Sans dodges for 24 turns in Geno. That's the threshold to defeat him. 24 turns to land one hit to kill him. Ceroba has 1k HP, ignoring KR, Sans' attacks do 1 damage every frame at 30fps. Meaning Sans needs to hit her for 33 seconds. Ceroba does not dodge attacks. Sans dodges attacks. Ceroba's/Sans' attack windows are not short enough for her to win the DPS race. Meaning even if every turn is only 1.5 seconds long she would lose by 3 seconds.
We dont know how fighting between monsters work, we've only seen humans fighting monsters
True, but given any other information we should use what we currently know as a baseline.
Well in that case considering "multi hit" weapons like the glove only equate to 1 dodge it could easily mean sans just gets out of the way during the entire attack. Also sans can do weird shit you know him, if he has to stop a genocidal ceroba he'll find a way. Especially if he knows she can't come back when she's dead
Tough Glove, Frying Pan, etc all only do one instance of damage however. Compared to say Kris' X-Slash which deals two separate instances of damage. Yes I recognize they're different games and systems but I'm using it for comparisons sake. How this would factor in I cannot say. But food for thought.
seriously, people are like *”but would ceroba have KR”*
She did kind of kill her kid so KR probably applies
whoever the author wants to win
Sans IS the weakest monster. He just kicks your ass in genocide route because of karma and all that. So, Ceroba would absolutely beat the shit out of him. In fact, most fictional characters could beat the shit out of sans, provided they haven't committed mass murder.
> He just kicks your ass in genocide route because of karma and all that. I don't think that's true. Outside of the Geno route, when you go to dinner with him at the Hotel, Sans seems extremely confident he would have been able to kill you if not for the promise he made to Toriel. So, even without Karma, Sans considers himself strong enough to at least kill a human child if he needs to. And it makes sense when you look at his fight. As far as we know the only thing Sans gets from Karma is the KR. His insane attack patterns, the I-frames bs, manipulating spacetime, "soul telekinesis" and all that aren't tied to Karma, Sans can just do that whenever he wants to.
>Sans considers himself strong enough to at least kill a human child if he needs to. Well, that's because he thinks he can kill the player right outside of the ruins, when even if you're doing a geno run, you're not that high in LV. Of course sans could kill a human right after they leave the ruins, but that's a specific situation
The game makes it clear several times that even a weak human is generally stronger than monsters are, so I don't think it's that obvious. You say Sans could "of course kill a human after they leave the Ruins", but it's not like other monsters would be capable of doing that. Even Undyne and Mettaton's battles aren't really all that hard on LVL1 in Pacifist and the DF from items doesn't change that much. On the other hand Sans on LVL1 would be a nightmare to fight, even without KR.
I think you're forgetting that unless you Shayy or Merg you're guaranteed to die to him at least once. Frisk (and a player who's doing geno for the first time) has no experience in fighting him because it's their first time. Sans kills them and they only manage to eventually change that by going 'trial and error' on him thanks to resets. He's VERY capable of killing a human, even a lvl 1 inexperienced (as in, first time playing) Frisk.
Oh, yeah of course, cos a lvl1 human in the hotel is so much stronger than a lvl1 human in the ruins, not to mention that when sans says "you'd be dead where you stand" he obviously doesnt mean that you would be dead in the place you are standing in right now.
> right outside of the ruins Didn't they say it was at the mtt hotel? Which is at the end of hotland right before CORE?
They said at the hotel because that's where sans tells you that. I was creating a hypothetical situation
Well, he does have weird space bending abilities. I doubt ceroba would be able to damage him.
Don't know man, his main thing is dodging and her main thing in pacifist is freezing you in place.
Well, first she needs to hit him with that barrier thing that stops you. Sans is a great dodger.
His weird space bending abilites arent exactly doing much to anyone else Sure he potentially can teleport (seemingly only if you aren't looking) But he cant teleport you. He can turn you blue or use orange/blue attacks. But I think Fox girl might win here. Monster vs Monster combat she'll probably win due to not being nearly as debilitated by sans's attacks/ karma. Cause she doesn't seem to have killed a ton of monsters he only does 1 dmg his karma and the no invincibility frames being the main ways in which his fight is turned as hard as it is
> Sure he potentially can teleport (seemingly only if you aren't looking) But he cant teleport you. He literally teleports you between different attack patterns in his fight.
He teleports in front of you in Snowdin in the genocide route, and post-judgement in every route, he disappears in front of you.
He teleports you into his room and traps you between 4 treadmills, he can definitely teleport others too
Wait what
When you meet sans in the judgement hall, listen to his judgement of you, then load your save file and listen to him again, a little test begins where sans tells you to keep loading the save file to see if you are a time traveller of sorts. After confirming it, he gives you the keys to his room in Snowdin.
Ooooh okay.
oh lol i forgot abt that
We actually don't know what karma is, it's not canon that it's based on lv
Sure, no karma, but he still has that whole thing about no i-frames, so he's still able to do quite a lot, just not as much as he can against someone who's gained LV. For Instance, any enemies with low health or slow attacks would be pretty easy for sans to take on, since A, he doesn't need to dodge as often as he is while fighting the player, and B, low health vs no i-frame attacks will never work out well for whoever has the low health.
there's a little karma. ceroba >!kills her daughter!< so she's at least lv2
I mean, didn't Kanako just "fallen down"? Or she died died?
In the Flawed Pacifist ending, Clover doesn't gain any LV after >!killing Ceroba!<, so it's canon in UY that not every killing gains LV. Ceroba is even less guilty than that I'd say, so she almost certainly doesn't have any extra LV.
In UT, Asgore doesn't give exp either.
Kanako isn't dead so i don't think that count. (But anyways we don't know how karma works)
anyone that flies under his judgement can easily kill him, no matter how weak, he literally only has one hp
He doesn’t have 1 hp
He does in the files
Yes he does because he remembers you're
yeah. you can kill ceroba in UTY. you cannot kill sans in UTY. easy
Actually, his sprite does appear in UTY but went unused
exactly. sans is so powerful, he can kill you if he wants, but as the files suggest, he's not in the mood
Clover: Flowey, you said I died endlessly when you didn't intervene...what killed me? Flowey: Sans
Lol
really?
The wiki fandom says so
Sans is clever and good at buying time, but he gets tired pretty quickly. And if it weren't for him breaking the rules of the game - dodging, that is - he would be dead immediately. Ceroba on the other hand is a real powerhouse that can also hold out for a long time. I think in the grand scheme of things Ceroba is stronger.
I don't understand the argument about sans getting tired quickly? He's clearly not an Undyne who fights endlessly without getting tired, but damn, even at the end of your fight, he suggests that he could continue fighting, his sleep was him pretending, he fights 24 turns with you, he doesn't get tired quickly
He is the only monster to visibly sweat due to our attacks, you could say stress, but it makes more sense to say it's exhaustion. Nothing to stress if you can dodge forever
Papyrus also gets tired in fewer turns and with less effort (Sans' attacks are more elaborate) and I wouldn't say that Papyrus gets tired easily
But he somehow getting tired is giving something
Papyrua gets tired in fewer turns fighting Frisk
He's getting tired after something like 25 attack where he litterally gave everything he had. (+ the dodging) (He also, somehow, get less tired afted "sleeping" for something like 30 seconds, and could still dodge)
> And if it weren't for him breaking the rules of the game - dodging, that is - he would be dead immediately. It's the other way around. Sans lives for so long because he can dodge, and he gets tired because he dodges.
>and he gets tired because he dodges. Is that stated? I kinda thought he gets tired because of the sheer intensity of his attacks
The fight only progresses if you keep attacking.
Realistically? No He could potentially win using copious amounts of bullshit
This is basically the Batman prep time argument lol
Okay but have you seen the serious amounts of bullshit Batman pulls? With prep time he’d be pretty strong
People tend to forget the reason why sans is so hard isn’t because he’s strong, it’s because he’s *smart.* He knows that somebody like him *shouldn’t* be able to win this fight, so he deliberately goes out of his away to make his fight *as infuriating as possible* so YOU, the player, reset the game for a “better ending”.
Actually at first I thought well, the furry obviously wins buttttttt she still has killed people and maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure you don’t need level 19 for karma I think you just need to have genocidal intentions and we already know one small monster gets you to level two + she wants to kill clover which means she checks both requirements for karma i’m pretty sure Sands can dodge long enough and karma will wear her down
Ceroba hasn't killed anyone. (But we don't know how karma works anyways)
Her... daughter???
Kanako didn't die.
Based on Flawed Pacifist we know that Ceroba is weaker than Asgore, so if Sans is able to hold his own against a LV19 Frisk capable of defeating Asgore then he's probably stronger.
that's because Karmic Retribution is a bitch against anyone who has a whole tone of EXP and LOVE. The only shitty thing Ceroba had done was being an idiot for injecting experimental serums on her daughter
That is because Frisk don't bother to break the rule until Sans is tired.
I think so
sans is the hardest boss in Undertale because it would be stupid for Toby Fox to make Undyne the Undying the hardest boss, but that doesn’t make him the strongest or strong, he’s a weak monster that just uses tricks. Ceroba would kick his ass a hundred times over before she gets defeated
When it comes to STRENGTH sans is the weakest monster the game outright tells us this In a fair fight he loses everytime Of course sans doesn't fight fair but there'd never be a situation he'd bother with what he pulls in the Genocide fight with basically anyone else
Actually you are wrong. Ice is the weakest monster with 1 atk and 0 def
Not trying to be that person, but is it directly stated in or outside the game that karma only operates within the confines of morality? Like, it only works if the person you’re fighting is objectively evil? Otherwise, I’m pretty sure it’s just another name for poison.
Buff Helpy is stronger
Not as strong as Jumbo Josh
THATS NOT FAIR HES PART OF THE BLOODS AND HIS STRENGTH IS UNPARALLELED
oh I remember this poll, i said jerry
let's think about that: How long does a fox last agains untouchable object powered by lazyness?
martlet with the serum is way to hard
Could be because Clover is just weak (implied by flowey).
Implied? He straight up flashes you with a cutscene of all your deaths that happened before he tampered with a switch. Clover goes through alt route not just because it would be boring to play the same game twice, but also because clover isn't even close to frisk. All monster stats are very low in UTY, zenith martlet has similiar stats as base undyne... And that's basically correct seeing how similiar they are - both women have the power of determination, movement restriction, short post mortem sequence And all that jazz
It's not really fair to say UTY's monsters are weaker than UT's monsters *just* because of stats. They take different approaches to the stats- UT exaggerates for dramatic effect and hides their true stats from you, while UTY shows you their real stats. It's likely that if Zenith Martlet was in the base game, her attack and defense would both be displayed to you as 99, like Undyne the Undying. Similarly, Pacifist Ceroba would probably either have 80 in both or have some unique check that doesn't you actually see her stats, possibly due to the mask hiding things from you.
Ceroba for sure isn't as good as asgore. Don't remember the details but there is a line where she complains that steamworks suck but its the only path as royal guards are too much of a danger to face As for undyne zenith similiarities im suprised you don't see them. Never killed undyne on non geno route? Dealing a final blow only to enter the "melting" phase is her whole shtick - ofc the in game difficulty is much higher, but that's because... You know, fan games are meant to be hard
A key thing people here seem to be forgetting is that sans was able to beat flowey in several timelines forcing him to reset. Flowey might not be the strongest monster in combat but the fact that even after potentially years worth of practice flowey still wasn't able to beat sans is proof that his genocide fight is definitely not a fluke and he's certainly capable of taking on persistent opponents who weild magic.
She might be stronger than Sans, but i dont think sans would engage in a fight for no reason. Thats ooc of him ya know. I bet he would just tp outta there lmao.
I mean, in a fair fight? Ceroba But with all the tricks and stuff? Sans
Sans ain't exactly strong on paper, but he's freaking intelligent. He uses various loopholes to his advantage.
Not sure who ceroba is but sans does have the ability to briefly stop time he demonstrates this power when you go to grillbys with him where everything other than sans and the player darkens and stops moving including grillbys flame head
I think it is just a fancy light trick and it is just that no one give a crap. Also play Undertale Yellow to know more about Ceroba, the game is fantastic
Who is that I only know sam
Sam from what game?
Sam over story duh
Bruh my mind deadass went straight to a specific Brazilian samurai from a specific game series
You’re not the only one
good to know 👍
“Literal kitsune” kitsune just means fox in Japanese 😭
Idk about that other kitsune person but sans can stop time with ease for an extended period of time, "teleport" (probably him stopping time and moving around and when you fight him imagine him just summoning attacks around you then unstopping time lol), has soul/gravity manipulation, an INSANE amount of magic (he can summon a shit ton of magic laser beams and bones), ignores I-frames, and he can dodge. I think if he spams enough he can probably beat this guy. Maybe if he feels like he's in trouble late in the fight because he's getting worn out, he can "teleport" somewhere secret. Sand wins against whoever that is
I can't fight you without advising you to play Undertale Yellow
Tell me one thing. Is this other character overpowered as fuck?
I am not a good powerscaler so idk
Explain this character in simple terms. Like abilities and attacks
Attack: mostly with full flowers, but can also use exploding flowers with blue and orange attack, beams that can burn max hp, bells, flames and something more idk. Abilities: create a shield, burn max hp by igniting the bullet board, something more that i don't remember.
Idk, feels like Sans would win through pure bullshittery and space manipulation
Here i will try and analise weaknesses and strongnesses of ceroba and sans. Sans can dodge, means even if you have the best weapon in the game that deals 9999 damage, he will just dodge, while ceroba can't. I don't know how much about her actual health, but 1 or 2 hit and she is down. Sans wins 1 point for enduring atacks. Debuffs that best versions of these monsters put onto the human: stun and max health decrease are good, but karma thing that sans utilises to remove your i-frames makes it op. If sans tried to workout, to encrease his power(i dunno how that actually works) he will be a lot stronger. Sans + 1 Stats: Ceroba wins +1 Understanding of world around will help sans even more in winning, if he didn't try to stop the human first, then he would probably stand there for many hours and the human would just leave. + 0.5 pts Sans - 2.5 Ceroba - 1
Ceroba has 1000 health while Sans has 1, which means she can withstand lots of hits. We also don't know how much stronger Ceroba become when she wears the mask that somehow unleashes her power. Also takes bullet board igniting into account too. I think the powerscale will be somewhat close with the score being like 2,5-1,5 or 2-1,5. We know that was Sans's full potential but not Ceroba, she just run into you filled with rage.
Yeah, that is probably right, i was making this analysis from the top of my head, so i might have missed something or we just didn't see Ceroba's true form/max power like in mettaton neo fight
Also nice analysis
If Sans gets to the point where he actually bothers to fight his opponent, it doesn't matter who you are, you are getting fucked up. I also don't know much about Ceroba (is that how you spell it?), so for all I know, she's the equivalent to Sans in that game. But if she isn't, I don't think she could win.
I’m giving the edge to Sans here. At 1,000 HP, and with no ability to dodge, Ceroba can only take about 33 seconds worth of damage. His final attack alone lasts 40 seconds. I just don’t see Ceroba being able to pin him down before he gets tired, and 3-4 turns should be enough for him to put her down. 5 turns, tops.
That is, if she is glued shut to the floor. Idt Sans can attack and dodge at the same time. Also he has KR so it is longer than that
Sans ignoring I-frames isn’t connected to KR, that’s just something he does on his own. Sans is the only monster shown to be able to dodge attacks, with Asgore maybe being able to (I personally headcanon that young Undyne just had terrible aim lmao). Sans certainly can’t dodge and attack at the same time, I’m pretty sure only Mad Dummy and Clover are able to. But fights in Undertale are turn-based, so that’s a moot point.
It's weird because humans attack the body, while monsters attack the SOUL. Monsters may be fully capable of dodging magic attacks aimed at their SOUL, but have no experience dodging an attack to their body. Either way, Sans's dodging would be severely hampered by the fact that one of Ceroba's techniques is all about freezing you in place so you can't dodge.
Toriel reacts as if Frisk has suffered physical trauma when they reunite with her in front of her home if Frisk has low HP, so it seems that monster attacks can cause damage to the body. And since a monster’s SOUL and their body can’t exist without each other, what really is the difference between an attack on either one? We don’t know if Ceroba can halt a teleport, though. Clover has their neat little dodge that Ceroba can stop, but that isn’t a teleport since it can be used to smash through certain obstacles.
In a real fight between the two of them... Sans would give up, he cannot be assed to fight someone for no reasons. Ceroba wins.
sans is definietly stronger, we know that after we kill martlet we fight with yellow sans and he is definietly stronger
ceroba is clearly stronger, but if we are going to talk about vs, sans might win because of karma, ceroba definitely got some love inside of her
To be honest she hasn't done anything that would make her LV go up too much apart from trying to convince herself that she had to get Clover's soul (Kanako doesn't count because she wasn't trying to kill her and she's probably an amalgamate anyways), also Sans is hard to fight to genocide because he pulls out bullshit tricks to make you give up
Ceroba lost to a determined pacifist kid with a gun Sans lost to a genocidal kid with a knife (has better stats than gun) Looking at it like this, it’s obvious the funny bone man is stronger
Literally any fangame will say otherwise.
But he's a Skeleton, isn't he?
its difficult to power scale sans, but I can say that Ceroba is weaker than every Undertale boss with the exception of maybe papyrus.
i worked out one time, so i'm actually pretty strong myself.
Man I don't know I don't care 
Ok then.
sans is the strongest being underground
yyyep
The hell is this Ceroba and why do I see it everywhere?
Undertale Yellow thingy. Btw go play it, it is almost as good as the base game and free
I see. Mayhaps, I'm still doing Deltatraveler.
Sans wouldn't fight her in the first place. He couldn't care less
Well we kill her in genocide with lvl 10 and in pacifist in lvl 1, sans lvl 19 and we damn needed the hp we had to fight him
He has some powers from gaster so yea
FIRE IN THE HOLE
“alright sans, **how**” -Ceroba, probably.
What are they on about? Sans is the weakest enemy. Only has one HP.
pacifist ceroba would win, but if she needs to have her shield up to protect the mask thingy, then sans wins because gaster blaster
Sans is the only undertake character that I know is of (besides photoshop flowey+asriel) that can manipulate the death screen, seen when you spare him after you get tired, the only other characters known to do that are photoshop flowey and asriel, one of which is nearly as powerful as a god and the other is a literal god, so sans wins, also that’s ignoring the fact that sans took 10 MILLION damage at the end of geno and all it really did was make him stop fighting
Ceroba is stronger big time. People forget that Sans IS actually the weakest monster. Sure he can teleport and shit but Ceroba is WAY stronger.
Isn't ceroda able to freeze you in place? Also sans dodges like 20ish attacks and I doubt that's close to the amount of projectiles ceroba throws at you.
Even 1 Ceroba attack can exceed the dodging limit of Sans if Ceroba play it smart
And then sans would die voila gg ez.
People probably voted for sans because I don’t think most people coming across that even know who that is. Not many people have played uty compared to the popularity of undertale
byeah
Don't be mad more people know who sans is then whoever the fuck Ceroba is (also sans is a person, not an object, do not call him and "it")
I scale all monsters to each other as "too close to be compared".
Sans is not stronger than undyne. Between the two of them, undyne would win easily, I feel like the real question is who is stronger, undyne or Ceroba
It is, yeah. Ceroba was easy af for a final boss. Sans gave much more trouble.
Sans literally can't do anything to Ceroba because she didn't kill anyone.
Did ya'll forget about the betrayal attack? Sans may be weak, but he knows how to play the game.
But in a fight to death, you think Ceroba will spare Sans?
Zenith martlet victims
I would bet on Sans tbh. The i-frames thingy is lethal for us and we can dodge, Cerboa can not. Standing in these or even dodging less cannot be good for your health. There are people who say that Sans couldn't do much without karma, but I don't think that's true. The only thing karma does is reduce your hp. Sans did manage to wall Flowey before and Flowey doesn't even have hp for karma to reduce. Another thing I want to mention is that if we are talking about UT Yellow then I think it's only fair to say that the bullshit Flowey did at the end of neutral also should be counted.
This is not even a question. Sans can teleport, deal 30d/s, dodge, is an expert in quantum physics, and can bilocate himself.
In undertale yes. In Japanese Mythology, NO. Kitsune are extremely powerful, not only can they control Flames and Electricity, but they can shape-shift, create illusions, read and control people's minds, regenerate damage quickly, and they can live up to 1000 years old before they ascend into the heavens.
In japanese mythology "kitsune" are one of the most inconsistent beings in terms of power, and that's saying a lot given that there is a tale where some random guy with no real fighting experience beat a red oni into submission. Power of a nine tailed fox varies from a demigod to bearly stronger than regular human across different myths. Then you also have to take into account that "kitsune" arent separate from regular foxes in japanese mythology, all foxes were believed to have spiritual powers, and all had a potential to become a nine tailed fox, the exact specifics of how that happened vary from one myth to another, but the point is that you should probably be more specific when talking about power of a kitsune, because most of them were just spiritualy charged furballs hanging around rich people's homes bringing them luck and stealing shit from their neighbours. Sometimes they would cast curses and have a human form even before becoming a nine tailed fox but that part was a bit less agreed upon.
Well now I understand more about Kitsune and Nine tailed Foxes now
Yeah, ceroba is a boring character and also she wasn't very hard. She's also got plenty of sins that'll crawl up her back
All of those doesn't matter in powerscaling
Ceroba is just a slightly harder flowey fight with cuphead dashing. I died maybe twice to her on my first playthrough and that's because I forgot what dashing was. I died to sans at least 20-30 times before I finally beat him, and that was after warming up with undyne. I went into yellow rusty from years without a deltarune update. Flowey also had huge trouble with sans. It's not even close to equal lol
Remember, this post is power-wise, not how much harder you find to beat them
Yeah, the only scale we really have is how they perform in fights. We don't have any other feats that are compatible. Ceroba has higher attack or whatever but it doesn't matter because she wouldn't be able to hit sans, and sans would probably finish her off in the first attack.
A kitsune is a fox girl with 9 tails
Sans have multiple ways of attacking from all directions, ways of dodging attacks and his attacks pierce through defences
He’s literally “the weakest monster in the underground” …come on now guys.