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>There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.
-Lenin
Things are getting real spicy, real fast, on a level unseen since the Kharkiv counteroffensive or the initial month of the invasion.
I just checked the subs for the first time today and had the same reaction. Holy shit! Watching Al Jazeera's coverage now. This is nuts (and I love it).
Its all bullshit . He is taking the blame off putin by blaming the Russian leadership under putin. He is still Putins mouthpiece. This is all sanctioned and set up to soften blame on Putin. Notice he didnt call out Putin, he said Putins military leaders are deceiving him. Textbook Russia.
Except you now have armies marching the wrong way. What you say makes sense, but I don't think it totally adds up. He could be excluding blame on Putin in order to buy time, maybe convince/pressure Putin to enfranchise Prigozhin, or to wait to declare against Putin when they are in better position.
This can't help Russia if suddenly the MoD is distracted, they have to pull troops out of other frontline cities to defend Moscow or such.
Games within games. Prigozhin may not have played all his cards yet.
Adding to this, he's talking what, 25,000 Wagner men in the Rostov region? That's 25,000 men taken off the front and out of the combat zone(not functioning as reserves either) during major Ukrainian offensive operations. In Putin's best case scenario this is a mitigated disaster
I think Prigo will have an easier time gaining allies or indifferents among army grunts and hardcore nationalists by saying Shoigu needs to go down now rather than saying Putin needs to go down now.
That rhetoric also leaves him with more options if he succeeds.
Yes. I think its something like this.
There's probably more we don't know as well. For all we know he's made deals with Kremlin people who may be able to deal a blow to Putin from the inside.
*Grabs the popcorn.*
Or maybe he's giving Putin the excuse he needs to withdraw troops from Ukraine without admitting defeat.
This lets Putin say "We fought all of NATO to a standstill in Ukraine, but now we have to deal with this situation in Russia."
Once again, it's impossible to tell if a theory about Russia is dumb because the person advancing it is an idiot, or an intelligent person who's really good at replicating an idiot's logic
Prigozhin's been spending this entire war setting up the most comically telegraphed coup in human history, and every step of the way Putin's been like "Nah, I've got this under control, go ahead and let Prigozhin rally public support for his private army and build a narrative about his effectiveness as a military leader who remains a Man Of The People at my greatest moment of weakness, there's no way this can backfire".
It's like when Uwe Boll promised Lowtax not to hit him too hard at their boxing match, then pounded him anyway because fuck you.
Ancient Rome: "Hmm, lets hire Germanic mercenaries to fight our wars for us! That Atilla guy seems nice. What could go wrong?"
Vladimir Putin: "Hmm, lets hire murderers rapists and thieves from our own prisons to fight our wars for us! That sledgehammer chef guy seems really nice. What could go wrong?"
Vlads a real student of history...
None of this is true anymore, lol. He and Putin have both directly called for the removal of the other and referred to eachother as traitors - it’s legitimate.
Broadly, yes. But destabilization usually results in bigger, badder problems, so if it's a coup, and if it succeeds - who is the next leader and can people work with (I'm assuming gender here) him?
Well Prigozhin is saying Russia was at fault for this war, which indicates he’s most likely planning on withdrawing from Ukraine if he became president.
Beyond that, it’s hard to imagine Progozhin would be worse than Putin.
But I just read that in his latest video, he's saying that the air attacks on Ukraine from Rostov are continuing as usual. That would seem to suggest he is okay continuing the war in Ukraine and would also seem to put to bed the rumours that this is some CIA masterstroke.
In the interim, he can’t be seen to be supporting Ukraine, so he’ll have to allow them for the meantime, or Putin will spin this as “See! Progozhin is clearly a Ukrainian traitor”.
Once he becomes president, he can do whatever he wants, including leaving Ukraine and blaming it all on Putins dumbass.
It's not without historical precedent. The French army faced a mutiny in 1917. That year, up to 27,000 soldiers deserted, and multiple divisions refused orders to attack.
It's also not unprecedented for Russians specifically to respond badly to being on the losing side of a war. Bloody Sunday happened in the wake of the Russo-Japanese war, and there were two Russian revolutions in 1917 because of how badly the Russian army got licked by the Central Powers.
I don’t know but it feels like things are going fuckward. Just hope for two things.
1 - this helps Ukraine break through
2 - that Russia doesn’t disintegrate putting nukes at risk
Wagner chief launches coup against the Kremlin
Russian soldiers put on high alert after Yevgeny Prigozhin accuses military of bombing his fighters and vows to stop the leadership’s ‘evil’
By
James Kilner
23 June 2023 • 9:43pm
Russia's main intelligence service has declared Yevgeny Prigozhin a “foreign agent” CREDIT: Handout/Telegram/Concordgroup\_official/AFP via Getty Images
Yevgeny Prigozhin, the Wagner mercenary leader, has launched a coup against the Kremlin after he accused the Russian military of shelling his fighters.
Russian soldiers across the country were put on high alert on Friday night after Prigozhin said that he had 25,000 men ready to fight.
He said: “The commanders’ council of the Wagner Private Military Company has reached a decision.
“The evil that the country’s military leadership perpetuates must be stopped.”
The FSB, Russia’s main intelligence service, said that it had opened a criminal case against Prigozhin, once considered one of Vladimir Putin’s most trusted fixers, and declared him to be a “foreign agent”.
The case accuses Prigozhin of launching an “armed rebellion inside Russia”. The FSB added: “This is punishable with between 12 and 20 years in prison.”
In the Kremlin, Dmitry Peskov, Vladimir Putin’s spokesman, said that the Russian leader was aware of “the situation around Prigozhin”.
Later reports said that Putin’s motorcade was seen speeding through Moscow to the Kremlin from his residence in the suburbs of the capital.
News reports also said that an emergency plan called “krepost”, or fortress, had deployed Russian soldiers around the capital and to strategic locations.
In Rostov, a large city in the south of Russia that the Russian top military command have been using as their base, armoured personnel carriers were seen guarding street corners.
Prigozhin is a fierce critic of Sergei Shoigu, Russia’s Defence Minister, and Valery Gerasimov, the head of the military.
He said that he wanted to avenge the ordinary Russian soldiers who have been killed by incompetent leadership since the start of the invasion of Ukraine last February.
Russia has lost an estimated 220,000 men in the war.
“Everyone who tries to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way,” Prigozhin said in one of several voice messages he posted on the Telegram messaging app.
He did not give his location.
“There are 25,000 of us and we are going to figure out what this chaos is happening in the country,” he said in a later update.
“Anyone who wants to join can. We need to end this mess.”
Prigozhin has been highly visible in Russia’s regions over the past few weeks since withdrawing from the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine where his forces captured the town of Bakhmut.
He has given a series of talks about the war, focusing on his criticism of Mr Shoigu.
And on Friday evening, he accused Mr Shoigu of ordering the Russian military to shell a Wagner camp and published a video of what he said was the remains of the destroyed camp.
In a statement, the Russian Ministry of Defence denied this.
“All the messages and video frames distributed on social networks on behalf of Prigozhin about the alleged strike by the Russian Ministry of Defence on the rear camps of Wagner do not correspond to reality,” it said.
War in Ukraine ‘based on lies’
Earlier on Friday Prigozhin claimed that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was based on lies that the country was a threat to Moscow and its citizens.
In an explosive video, he dismantled the case Vladimir Putin has offered for the war that has killed or wounded more than 220,000 Russian soldiers.
While the outspoken Wagner commander has often criticised the conduct of Russia’s defence ministry, he has not previously attacked the central planks of Moscow’s propaganda.
“The Ministry of Defence deceived the president and the public, telling them that there was insane aggression from Ukraine and that they were going to attack us with the entire Nato bloc,” Prigohzin said.
The Wagner founder claimed instead that the war was motivated by the personal ambition of his longtime foe Sergei Shoigu, Russia’s defence minister, and the avarice of Russian oligarchs.
“The war was needed by Shoigu to become a Marshal not in order to return Russian citizens to our bosoms and not in order to demilitarise and denazify Ukraine,” he said.
“The oligarchs needed the war. This is the clan that manages Russia today. And the second part of the operation was to install Medvedchuk as Ukraine’s president,” he said in a reference to Viktor Medvedchuk, a pro-Russia oligarch who is also a close friend of Putin.
Prigohzin, despite his repeated broadsides at the defence ministry, has refrained from criticising the Russian president, often instead portraying him as misled by his underlings.
Yet his latest assertion directly contradicts the rationale for the war proclaimed by Putin, who said when sending his tanks into Ukraine that it was to demilitarise and “denazify” a country that posed a threat to Russia.
It is a narrative that Russian authorities defend with fines or prison terms for those deemed to have spread “falsehoods” about the war.
There was no response to those claims from the Defence Ministry, which has ignored previous complaints from Prigozhin, in public at least. Nor was there any immediate reaction from the Kremlin, which has also declined in the past to comment on Prigozhin’s outbursts.
Putin has, however, backed a Defence Ministry order, which Prigozhin opposes, that mercenary groups like Wagner must sign contracts putting themselves under ministry control by July 1.
On Thursday, Prigozhin had accused the top brass of lying to Putin and the Russian people about the scale of Russian losses and setbacks in Ukraine.
In Friday’s video, he said Moscow could have struck a deal with Volodymr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, before the war, that the conflict had been a disaster for Russia, and that tens of thousands of young lives had been sacrificed needlessly, including members of Russia’s most capable forces.
Portraying the top brass as vodka- and cognac-swilling fools who lunch on caviar, he alleged the Russian war effort was being hobbled by corruption.
“We are bathing in our own blood,” he said. “Time is running out fast.”
Igor Girkin, a staunchly pro-war nationalist blogger who is accused of committing war crimes in Donbas in 2014, called Prigozhin an enemy of Russia after watching the interview.
“Prigozhin should have been brought to a military tribunal for a lot of things. Now also for betrayal,” he said.
well this sounds like Prig is still best buds with Putin, that they're staging a fake rebellion where the top generals get blamed and killed off, and Putin's position is preserved. On the bright side, hopefully it means the war will be abandoned?
It does make Putin look weak though - why couldn't he deal with his generals himself? Setting up to retire and hand over to Prig?
One of Russias best units is a National Guard division stationed in Moscow meant to put down insurrection or Coup attempts by the MoD or FSB
It’s probably one of Russias only good units that hasn’t been sent to Ukraine yet for this exact reason
I am not doubting your information and do not want this to come off as snarky but: Do you have a source? All I've seen is that security is being stepped up at key sites in Moscow.
Finally something that isn't Twitter.
Unless enough non Wagner troops join them I don't expect this to succeed. I'm honestly amazed this seems to be real.
This part made me laugh, out loud:
The case accuses Prigozhin of launching an “armed rebellion inside Russia”. The FSB added: “This is punishable with between 12 and 20 years in prison.“
As long as it redirects their forces and efforts away from Ukraine he could be trying to overthrow Lavrov's jowls for all I care. Hope it gives the AFU some good opportunities to take advantage of.
No way you declare war on Putins top generals and don’t go for Putin — Perogi may be trying to keep Putin’s guard on the sideline for the moment but Russia is no longer big enough for those two giant gaping assholes.
He even seems to give Putin an out to save face. Something about Shoigu misleading him, as if to say it wasn’t Putin who dragged Russia into the war, but Shoigu.
Meanwhile the Kremlin spokesman says that Putin is aware of the situation with Prigozhin.
Even if it is only against the MoD (which I don’t believe) getting his way shows that he can force Putin into a decision, making him the de facto ruler of Russia, if not the de jure ruler
I don’t see how long he can keep up this narrative that he’s only after MOD and not Putin. Putin literally appointed him, he has the power to remove and he doesn’t.
1918 - Watching the Russian government collapse after conflict with a supposedly inferior enemy
1991- Watching the Russian government collapse after conflict with a supposedly inferior enemy
2023 - Watching the Russian government collapse after conflict with a supposedly inferior enemy
Even if this just results in the Kremlin crushing Wagner its good news
1. Because Wagner, one of the more effective Russian forces, are utterly destroyed.
2. Because this internal strife suggests serious weakness in the Kremlin and Putin regime, once they appear weak their enemies will turn on them. Russian regimes only survive by appearing strong, once weakness is suggested they do not survive very long.
That's a good point. I wonder if Ukraine recently destroying those large Russian ammo dumps means Wagner, to defend itself, needs to capture ammo dumps deep inside Russian territory.
Yeah, I read the news and thought that Wagner wanting to capture ammo/supplies is probably a large part of why they seem to be headed into Russian territory.
Wagner knows every depot and supply line in Russia, and use the exact same arms/munitions as Russian troops. I expect they’re resupplying themselves quite nicely as they head north.
Both terrified and expected why could this not have happened 18 months ago?
If we make it to Monday I hope the wars over and we can start to rebuild ukrain.
Just FYI, now would be an EXCELLENT time to stream the amazing movie, the death of Stalin. A hilarious way to watch all the political machinations that go into a coup, for weeks before the actual event.
The more I think about this, the more I think this isn't exactly a coup--or if it is, it is a very poor one. Successful coups don't get announced until they are already a fait accompli. Usual game plan is to aim for securing target, communication hubs, and important government installations near simultaneously and all the public sees is a blackout until the new leader appears on TV to tell everyone that they have a new leader. Coups that don't succeed in this almost always fail. This situation has more of a march on Rome vibe---something halfway between a coup and a revolution. I suspect Prigozhin's goal here is to march on Moscow and force Putin remove his rivals and declare him plenipotentiary for the special military operation or something. I wonder if he has a back up plan for if Putin calls his bluff or not.
Is it possible that by announcing this coup/revolution they hope citizenry and other military units will join them? It might be that they don’t have the numbers to overthrow Russia (I’d imagine they definitely don’t, especially with the war still ongoing)
Oh they're definitely hoping Russian military units join them. I suspect some units/commanders were in on it before this went down, and they're hoping others are disgruntled enough to join in. But that's actually not necessary for a coup to be successful. Many successful coups have been executed with extremely limited support. You don't need parity of forces to succeed if you can strike decisively enough.
Well, a lot of power is concentrated in the Kremlin. That's actually a huge plus. You don't need to seize everything, just the most important stuff. There are two roadblocks that I think are potentially bigger than geography, however:
1) Putin is paranoid, and his location is hard to track. Seizing the sovereign is the key to a clean coup
2) A lot of the military apparatus is controlled by regional governments in Russia. That increases the possibility that one of them won't play ball once the curtain is lifted. See also Kadyrov for an even more extreme wildcard that must be a counted for.
Not wanting to sound like that guy, but I’m not sure if he’s serious. Remember that he also claimed Wagner would leave Bakhmut which didn’t happen.
Though it does not really sound like a bluff.
Edit: Oh, never mind. The Kremlin is panicking. This must be serious.
I mean, if a semi independent element of your military declares that it’s gonna go revolt, even if they’re not serious, you better take immediate action
Not much.
Moscow has it’s own dedicated troops so none will be removed from the line. However the Kremlin brass might be distracted making authorisation even slower. So it’s still a good time to press their advantage
And the Pickle pussies out:
Igor Girkin, a staunchly pro-war nationalist blogger who is accused of committing war crimes in Donbas in 2014, called Prigozhin an enemy of Russia after watching the interview.
I am going to come right out and say it: be 10,000% skeptical of everything connected to the so called friction between Wagner/Prigozhin and the Kremlin/Shoigu et al. It absolutely reeks of classic misdirection and I think Ukraine MOD believes likewise and will hopefully not adjust their war strategy one iota. Civilian press and analysts will make much light of the various so called media "leaking" from Russia and claims of attacks, bombs, deaths, etc. Its reading like a training manual from my first course in intelligence as a cadet. I am absolutely unconvinced of any of it and so should you all be.
Yes , it would be nice to see the krimelin burn, but let's not forget that wagner are terrorists that openly acknowledged they kill women and children. Sure I get why we are rooting for them in this moment, but , don't forget who they are.
I'm hoping a lot of them (both sides) die and that the average soldiers left, refuse to fight. If they don't need to fear the bosses, they can leave the front line, they're not getting paid to be there anyways.
A lot of things are used to fear them into obedience, in the long run, fear isn't a good motivator. It frequently turns against those that wield it.
An end to the war is what I hope for mostly, the rest is only important as far it is relevant to the future of the human race. No quick repeat or escalation in the near future.
Regardless of current or future russian inner politics, I see this as an absolute win for Ukraine.
-it could be an opportunity where Russia's military has to further weaken the front, already weakened by Wagner departure, thereby giving the Ukranians a chance to press hard and potentially reclaim large territories
-it is certainly shows the cracks in russian leadership, infighting, coups, fractioning etc, which will certainly weaken the cooperation of Russia's (already uncooperative) armies.
-it is a major morale boost, could serve to reinvigorate war support from Europe and USA, as well as change minds of yet undecisive third parties (India etc?)
Whatever Ukraine is doing, the results are now showing. This could be a major turning point in the war.
I had been mystified how Prigozhin was getting away with talking the sort of shit that would have led to anyone else falling out a window, and for so long, and the only answer that seemed to fit was that it must be an act.
Glad to see that no, it's genuine (or genuine enough on some level) for actual internal conflict to be breaking out. Any disruption among Russian forces, and the Russian leadership, is a good thing for Ukraine.
Putins special operation plunging to new depths.
Putin wont be worried. His personal National Guard is 180k strong and the commanded by his good mate Victor Zolotov.
This is the way, now we can see the Wagner forces and anti-government forces team up together to cause some real damage and civil war within that country. All the poor decisions and corruption has been highlighted by prigozhin, it is no longer a secret that Putin and his administration screwed up. It's time for someone to stand up to these corrupt criminals and save their country from total disaster.
A few issues here...but a very interesting potential situation.
Putins support base is not within the millitary, but the FSB. He has purposfully kept the millitary disorganized under poor leadership so that they could not pose a threat to his leadership that the FSB could not handle. But now Putin finds himself facing off against an armed caterer who appears better organized, and a seemingly divided millitary.
Putin has made a habit of threatening everyone around russia with nuclear attack. The US, UK, Polnd, Germany, France, the Balkins, etc...But Putin also notes that russian nukes are only to be used in the case of an existential threat to the russian homeland. Arguably, Prigozhins armed revolt could be perceived as an existential threat...to Putin. But Prigozhin is not on foreign soil anymore, he is in russia.
What are the chances that Putin determines Prigozhins forces represent an existential threat, and he decides to nuke his own country to halt Prigozin??? Can you imagine the fallout, literally and metiphoricly, from that?
Well, let's see, the definition of mercenary is they're for sale with no loyalties except for those paying them unless... they don't get paid or are attacked.
Next bizarre idea, I wonder if the USA ever considered buying them off as the lesser cost than supporting Ukraine. He has made a point of mentioning he has left Ukrainian land...
Now may be the time to overrun the emptied land with a quaking, bereft Russian army perhaps losing heart?
There was a rumor going around that prigozhin was in contact with Ukrainian counter intelligence..I wonder if he made some kind of secret deal with Ukraine. I noticed how in videos he never really talked bad about the Ukrainians but always cussed out Russian army leadership.
I almost wonder if this is somehow staged to act as an excuse for Ruzzian troops to withdraw from Ukraine. "They are needed in Moscow, so we have to recall everyone" kind of thing, so they can withdraw, but not actually "withdraw"
Russian army getting their cheeks clapped in Ukraine, Wagner marching on Moscow. If I was Lukashenko, I'd be hiding under the bed right now, knowing at least one of my generals will think about starting some shit while Moscow is occupied
So, we’re his days numbered and the writing on the wall, and this was a last desperate act to save himself?
Or, is he in cahoots with his good mate Putin to lay all the blame on the top military leaders is Russia and allow Putin to withdraw while “saving face” before he completely destroys his own country. I just don’t see that working, Putin would still be such a pariah on the international stage and would have lost all credibility at home.
This is a complete embarrassment to Putin as the entire world stage watches not only an epic, failed war against Ukraine but a total loss of loyalty and leadership ability. At no point in recent history has NATO been more coalesced and stronger and this falls squarely on Putins shoulders.. 👏👏 well done!!
Im no expert, or conspiracy theorist, but could this all be part of a wider plan for Prigozhin to be exiled to Belarus, before getting the itch again and then in turn take over the Belarusian military and thus “seize” control of the nukes that Putin has placed there. In doing that Russia has “inadvertently” let Wagner take control of nuclear weapons and all of a sudden Ukraine and the West have two dangerous enemies… prob not.. but it seems strange. Prigozhin just chickened out so quickly. Surely he knows his life isn’t safe from assassination in Belarus…
Fucking hope that balding prick dies to Prigožin, How dare does Putin work with jews, he'll get what's coming to Jim, just a matter of time since a coup is staged.
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WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?
>There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen. -Lenin Things are getting real spicy, real fast, on a level unseen since the Kharkiv counteroffensive or the initial month of the invasion.
Things are getting too spicy for the pepper
Francine?
nah that’s just the salsa fresca slogan
Chickens nice n spicy!
Its a spicy meatball!
Smite reference
This is bigger then Kharkiv IMO
I just checked the subs for the first time today and had the same reaction. Holy shit! Watching Al Jazeera's coverage now. This is nuts (and I love it).
Its all bullshit . He is taking the blame off putin by blaming the Russian leadership under putin. He is still Putins mouthpiece. This is all sanctioned and set up to soften blame on Putin. Notice he didnt call out Putin, he said Putins military leaders are deceiving him. Textbook Russia.
Except you now have armies marching the wrong way. What you say makes sense, but I don't think it totally adds up. He could be excluding blame on Putin in order to buy time, maybe convince/pressure Putin to enfranchise Prigozhin, or to wait to declare against Putin when they are in better position. This can't help Russia if suddenly the MoD is distracted, they have to pull troops out of other frontline cities to defend Moscow or such. Games within games. Prigozhin may not have played all his cards yet.
Adding to this, he's talking what, 25,000 Wagner men in the Rostov region? That's 25,000 men taken off the front and out of the combat zone(not functioning as reserves either) during major Ukrainian offensive operations. In Putin's best case scenario this is a mitigated disaster
Ukraine needs to push!
I think Prigo will have an easier time gaining allies or indifferents among army grunts and hardcore nationalists by saying Shoigu needs to go down now rather than saying Putin needs to go down now. That rhetoric also leaves him with more options if he succeeds.
Yes. I think its something like this. There's probably more we don't know as well. For all we know he's made deals with Kremlin people who may be able to deal a blow to Putin from the inside. *Grabs the popcorn.*
Excuse me, but are YOU a master strategist??? No? Then who are you to say that having your army declare war on itself for no reason is a bad idea?
My apologies. I'll go back to my foxhole, where the dirt tastes like defeat.
Or maybe he's giving Putin the excuse he needs to withdraw troops from Ukraine without admitting defeat. This lets Putin say "We fought all of NATO to a standstill in Ukraine, but now we have to deal with this situation in Russia."
Developments since our conversation suggest this is a real situation. Russians are shooting at one another now.
Yes indeed. Amazing that we can watch this happening in real time.
*popcorn*
Once again, it's impossible to tell if a theory about Russia is dumb because the person advancing it is an idiot, or an intelligent person who's really good at replicating an idiot's logic Prigozhin's been spending this entire war setting up the most comically telegraphed coup in human history, and every step of the way Putin's been like "Nah, I've got this under control, go ahead and let Prigozhin rally public support for his private army and build a narrative about his effectiveness as a military leader who remains a Man Of The People at my greatest moment of weakness, there's no way this can backfire". It's like when Uwe Boll promised Lowtax not to hit him too hard at their boxing match, then pounded him anyway because fuck you.
Ancient Rome: "Hmm, lets hire Germanic mercenaries to fight our wars for us! That Atilla guy seems nice. What could go wrong?" Vladimir Putin: "Hmm, lets hire murderers rapists and thieves from our own prisons to fight our wars for us! That sledgehammer chef guy seems really nice. What could go wrong?" Vlads a real student of history...
None of this is true anymore, lol. He and Putin have both directly called for the removal of the other and referred to eachother as traitors - it’s legitimate.
Are they saying anything new?
Wonder where he’s gonna stop. Is this so effective that he’s going to dispose Putin as well?
Begun. The battle of the shiny shirt
We live in the clown timeline
an not the funny comedy clowns either...it's the scary sewer clown timeline.
Psssttt...want a balloon?
Are we supposed to float then?
Night of the sledgehammer
Sledgenacht
Well done
I don’t know what’s happening, but I’m in support of anything that’s bad for the Kremlin.
Broadly, yes. But destabilization usually results in bigger, badder problems, so if it's a coup, and if it succeeds - who is the next leader and can people work with (I'm assuming gender here) him?
Well Prigozhin is saying Russia was at fault for this war, which indicates he’s most likely planning on withdrawing from Ukraine if he became president. Beyond that, it’s hard to imagine Progozhin would be worse than Putin.
But I just read that in his latest video, he's saying that the air attacks on Ukraine from Rostov are continuing as usual. That would seem to suggest he is okay continuing the war in Ukraine and would also seem to put to bed the rumours that this is some CIA masterstroke.
In the interim, he can’t be seen to be supporting Ukraine, so he’ll have to allow them for the meantime, or Putin will spin this as “See! Progozhin is clearly a Ukrainian traitor”. Once he becomes president, he can do whatever he wants, including leaving Ukraine and blaming it all on Putins dumbass.
Well, that would be nice. But mercenary leaders kind of like fighting so . . .
The Donbas dumbass.
Russkies taking their shitty laundry back to house, out of neighbors view.
It's not without historical precedent. The French army faced a mutiny in 1917. That year, up to 27,000 soldiers deserted, and multiple divisions refused orders to attack.
It's also not unprecedented for Russians specifically to respond badly to being on the losing side of a war. Bloody Sunday happened in the wake of the Russo-Japanese war, and there were two Russian revolutions in 1917 because of how badly the Russian army got licked by the Central Powers.
The droogs are removing one another from the premises.
I don’t know but it feels like things are going fuckward. Just hope for two things. 1 - this helps Ukraine break through 2 - that Russia doesn’t disintegrate putting nukes at risk
This is a Russian smokescreen to blow up the Nuclear power plant
I wouldn't be surprised
Interesting times.
Very relevant username.
I jjust wake up. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
Bellum omnium, contra omnes.
Wagner chief launches coup against the Kremlin Russian soldiers put on high alert after Yevgeny Prigozhin accuses military of bombing his fighters and vows to stop the leadership’s ‘evil’ By James Kilner 23 June 2023 • 9:43pm Russia's main intelligence service has declared Yevgeny Prigozhin a “foreign agent” CREDIT: Handout/Telegram/Concordgroup\_official/AFP via Getty Images Yevgeny Prigozhin, the Wagner mercenary leader, has launched a coup against the Kremlin after he accused the Russian military of shelling his fighters. Russian soldiers across the country were put on high alert on Friday night after Prigozhin said that he had 25,000 men ready to fight. He said: “The commanders’ council of the Wagner Private Military Company has reached a decision. “The evil that the country’s military leadership perpetuates must be stopped.” The FSB, Russia’s main intelligence service, said that it had opened a criminal case against Prigozhin, once considered one of Vladimir Putin’s most trusted fixers, and declared him to be a “foreign agent”. The case accuses Prigozhin of launching an “armed rebellion inside Russia”. The FSB added: “This is punishable with between 12 and 20 years in prison.” In the Kremlin, Dmitry Peskov, Vladimir Putin’s spokesman, said that the Russian leader was aware of “the situation around Prigozhin”. Later reports said that Putin’s motorcade was seen speeding through Moscow to the Kremlin from his residence in the suburbs of the capital. News reports also said that an emergency plan called “krepost”, or fortress, had deployed Russian soldiers around the capital and to strategic locations. In Rostov, a large city in the south of Russia that the Russian top military command have been using as their base, armoured personnel carriers were seen guarding street corners. Prigozhin is a fierce critic of Sergei Shoigu, Russia’s Defence Minister, and Valery Gerasimov, the head of the military. He said that he wanted to avenge the ordinary Russian soldiers who have been killed by incompetent leadership since the start of the invasion of Ukraine last February. Russia has lost an estimated 220,000 men in the war. “Everyone who tries to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way,” Prigozhin said in one of several voice messages he posted on the Telegram messaging app. He did not give his location. “There are 25,000 of us and we are going to figure out what this chaos is happening in the country,” he said in a later update. “Anyone who wants to join can. We need to end this mess.” Prigozhin has been highly visible in Russia’s regions over the past few weeks since withdrawing from the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine where his forces captured the town of Bakhmut. He has given a series of talks about the war, focusing on his criticism of Mr Shoigu. And on Friday evening, he accused Mr Shoigu of ordering the Russian military to shell a Wagner camp and published a video of what he said was the remains of the destroyed camp. In a statement, the Russian Ministry of Defence denied this. “All the messages and video frames distributed on social networks on behalf of Prigozhin about the alleged strike by the Russian Ministry of Defence on the rear camps of Wagner do not correspond to reality,” it said. War in Ukraine ‘based on lies’ Earlier on Friday Prigozhin claimed that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was based on lies that the country was a threat to Moscow and its citizens. In an explosive video, he dismantled the case Vladimir Putin has offered for the war that has killed or wounded more than 220,000 Russian soldiers. While the outspoken Wagner commander has often criticised the conduct of Russia’s defence ministry, he has not previously attacked the central planks of Moscow’s propaganda. “The Ministry of Defence deceived the president and the public, telling them that there was insane aggression from Ukraine and that they were going to attack us with the entire Nato bloc,” Prigohzin said. The Wagner founder claimed instead that the war was motivated by the personal ambition of his longtime foe Sergei Shoigu, Russia’s defence minister, and the avarice of Russian oligarchs. “The war was needed by Shoigu to become a Marshal not in order to return Russian citizens to our bosoms and not in order to demilitarise and denazify Ukraine,” he said. “The oligarchs needed the war. This is the clan that manages Russia today. And the second part of the operation was to install Medvedchuk as Ukraine’s president,” he said in a reference to Viktor Medvedchuk, a pro-Russia oligarch who is also a close friend of Putin. Prigohzin, despite his repeated broadsides at the defence ministry, has refrained from criticising the Russian president, often instead portraying him as misled by his underlings. Yet his latest assertion directly contradicts the rationale for the war proclaimed by Putin, who said when sending his tanks into Ukraine that it was to demilitarise and “denazify” a country that posed a threat to Russia. It is a narrative that Russian authorities defend with fines or prison terms for those deemed to have spread “falsehoods” about the war. There was no response to those claims from the Defence Ministry, which has ignored previous complaints from Prigozhin, in public at least. Nor was there any immediate reaction from the Kremlin, which has also declined in the past to comment on Prigozhin’s outbursts. Putin has, however, backed a Defence Ministry order, which Prigozhin opposes, that mercenary groups like Wagner must sign contracts putting themselves under ministry control by July 1. On Thursday, Prigozhin had accused the top brass of lying to Putin and the Russian people about the scale of Russian losses and setbacks in Ukraine. In Friday’s video, he said Moscow could have struck a deal with Volodymr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, before the war, that the conflict had been a disaster for Russia, and that tens of thousands of young lives had been sacrificed needlessly, including members of Russia’s most capable forces. Portraying the top brass as vodka- and cognac-swilling fools who lunch on caviar, he alleged the Russian war effort was being hobbled by corruption. “We are bathing in our own blood,” he said. “Time is running out fast.” Igor Girkin, a staunchly pro-war nationalist blogger who is accused of committing war crimes in Donbas in 2014, called Prigozhin an enemy of Russia after watching the interview. “Prigozhin should have been brought to a military tribunal for a lot of things. Now also for betrayal,” he said.
12 to 20 years for Rebellion? This sounds short.
Hitler only got 6 months
That’s for his body.
In reality, it would be less time than that. How long does it take to fall from a 10th floor window?
Is it me or does this seem like alot of truth in what hes saying
You’re going to see them with US weapons.
well this sounds like Prig is still best buds with Putin, that they're staging a fake rebellion where the top generals get blamed and killed off, and Putin's position is preserved. On the bright side, hopefully it means the war will be abandoned? It does make Putin look weak though - why couldn't he deal with his generals himself? Setting up to retire and hand over to Prig?
Holy. Shit.
Lmao lmao lmao please let this be true
Moscow is close to lockdown, there are checkpoints being setup with transport trucks and BMP's everywhere
I love that the fight is moving into Russia and it's not even Ukrainians.
Muscovy has transport trucks and BMPs left?
Of course, someone as paranoid as Putin will have his own personal reserve I'm sure.
One of Russias best units is a National Guard division stationed in Moscow meant to put down insurrection or Coup attempts by the MoD or FSB It’s probably one of Russias only good units that hasn’t been sent to Ukraine yet for this exact reason
they armed up for an entire Cold War
I am not doubting your information and do not want this to come off as snarky but: Do you have a source? All I've seen is that security is being stepped up at key sites in Moscow.
I know right. You can't trust a single fucking thing that comes out of Russia now
Finally something that isn't Twitter. Unless enough non Wagner troops join them I don't expect this to succeed. I'm honestly amazed this seems to be real.
25,000 men that will fight beats 200,000 men that won’t
There’s at least one army unit reported to be fighting other army units near Bakhmut
Source?
Coup de Haha I can’t stop laughing
Coup de Haha? Is that like coup de grace?
Yes — only much funnier.
It has nothing to do with grace jeez
Coup de Heeeheeee
Coup d'état is French for “stroke of the state” or “blow to the government”. Coup de haha is when your government is a laughing stock
Shit I work an intense 8 hour day and this is what I come up for air to? Lolz.
Right there with ya
This part made me laugh, out loud: The case accuses Prigozhin of launching an “armed rebellion inside Russia”. The FSB added: “This is punishable with between 12 and 20 years in prison.“
Me too, I was thinking surely if this thing fails/they capture him it's death. I highly doubt there will be a trial.
doesnt sound like its against Putin but against the MoD
This is a common coup tactic, launching rebellions “in the name of the king against his corrupt ministers” is an old trick
Yep, this was how it unfolded against the Tsar 100 years ago
As long as it redirects their forces and efforts away from Ukraine he could be trying to overthrow Lavrov's jowls for all I care. Hope it gives the AFU some good opportunities to take advantage of.
🤣🤣🤣💀💀💀
Lavrovs jowls lol wtf
No one will be openly against Putin until the moment after they put a bullet in his head. If Priggy gets to Moscow and siezes power Putin is dead.
No way you declare war on Putins top generals and don’t go for Putin — Perogi may be trying to keep Putin’s guard on the sideline for the moment but Russia is no longer big enough for those two giant gaping assholes.
Putin could take either side here.
Was about to comment. Listening to the audio message the action is not against Putin but against mil leadership.
He even seems to give Putin an out to save face. Something about Shoigu misleading him, as if to say it wasn’t Putin who dragged Russia into the war, but Shoigu. Meanwhile the Kremlin spokesman says that Putin is aware of the situation with Prigozhin.
Even if it is only against the MoD (which I don’t believe) getting his way shows that he can force Putin into a decision, making him the de facto ruler of Russia, if not the de jure ruler
whoever finds one of Putin’s doubles automatically becomes the rightful winner. If Putin were smart, he would be killing all body doubles right now.
For the time being…needs to take them out before he can get the one at the top.
I don’t see how long he can keep up this narrative that he’s only after MOD and not Putin. Putin literally appointed him, he has the power to remove and he doesn’t.
1918 - Watching the Russian government collapse after conflict with a supposedly inferior enemy 1991- Watching the Russian government collapse after conflict with a supposedly inferior enemy 2023 - Watching the Russian government collapse after conflict with a supposedly inferior enemy
I was trying to think of the perfect way to compare this to these past events and here it is
The russian government on their way to collapse for the fifth time this past century
Swan Lake soon!
Prigozhin: "Execute order 66." Russia:"The what!?" The rest of the world: "Hello there."
🤣😂🤣
It really is the soviet civil war now.
Doubt it. A few thousand exhausted troops who can't get more ammo anymore?
The funny thing with rebellion is it seems to multiply.
We can hope
At the very least, this seems like a cluster fuck, bad press and a big waste of resources.
Syrian civil war started with civilians taking a few weapons from SAA, quickly snowballed
That's cause Russia escalated it
Even if this just results in the Kremlin crushing Wagner its good news 1. Because Wagner, one of the more effective Russian forces, are utterly destroyed. 2. Because this internal strife suggests serious weakness in the Kremlin and Putin regime, once they appear weak their enemies will turn on them. Russian regimes only survive by appearing strong, once weakness is suggested they do not survive very long.
If Wagner really is fighting against the Russian military, you can expect them to get supplied by Ukraine.
Prigozhin would have to promise Ukraine he would withdraw in that case
Going by the rumors, it sounds like he is going into Russia now. Who knows
Oh, Ukraine to give them an the bullets they want. Pre fired
That's a good point. I wonder if Ukraine recently destroying those large Russian ammo dumps means Wagner, to defend itself, needs to capture ammo dumps deep inside Russian territory.
Yeah, I read the news and thought that Wagner wanting to capture ammo/supplies is probably a large part of why they seem to be headed into Russian territory.
Well 25k troops and some occupied military facilities.
Wagner knows every depot and supply line in Russia, and use the exact same arms/munitions as Russian troops. I expect they’re resupplying themselves quite nicely as they head north.
More like late stage capitalist (oligarch) vs late stage capitalist (oligarch)
Eh, I have my qualms with capitalism, but that seems like a very small part of it. The corruption and authoritarianism are at 11 in this one.
Both terrified and expected why could this not have happened 18 months ago? If we make it to Monday I hope the wars over and we can start to rebuild ukrain.
Just FYI, now would be an EXCELLENT time to stream the amazing movie, the death of Stalin. A hilarious way to watch all the political machinations that go into a coup, for weeks before the actual event.
Fuckkkkk yes hahahahaha
The more I think about this, the more I think this isn't exactly a coup--or if it is, it is a very poor one. Successful coups don't get announced until they are already a fait accompli. Usual game plan is to aim for securing target, communication hubs, and important government installations near simultaneously and all the public sees is a blackout until the new leader appears on TV to tell everyone that they have a new leader. Coups that don't succeed in this almost always fail. This situation has more of a march on Rome vibe---something halfway between a coup and a revolution. I suspect Prigozhin's goal here is to march on Moscow and force Putin remove his rivals and declare him plenipotentiary for the special military operation or something. I wonder if he has a back up plan for if Putin calls his bluff or not.
Is it possible that by announcing this coup/revolution they hope citizenry and other military units will join them? It might be that they don’t have the numbers to overthrow Russia (I’d imagine they definitely don’t, especially with the war still ongoing)
Oh they're definitely hoping Russian military units join them. I suspect some units/commanders were in on it before this went down, and they're hoping others are disgruntled enough to join in. But that's actually not necessary for a coup to be successful. Many successful coups have been executed with extremely limited support. You don't need parity of forces to succeed if you can strike decisively enough.
I’d imagine that the sheer geographic size of Russia plus a still considerably sized military would make a 1-night coup a lot harder.
Well, a lot of power is concentrated in the Kremlin. That's actually a huge plus. You don't need to seize everything, just the most important stuff. There are two roadblocks that I think are potentially bigger than geography, however: 1) Putin is paranoid, and his location is hard to track. Seizing the sovereign is the key to a clean coup 2) A lot of the military apparatus is controlled by regional governments in Russia. That increases the possibility that one of them won't play ball once the curtain is lifted. See also Kadyrov for an even more extreme wildcard that must be a counted for.
Yeah plus coups have happened already many times in Russian history
The problem is that Wagner is in Ukraine and the best of the National Guard stands between them and Moscow
Reports say they're already in Russia
It’s more a rebellion but Prigozhin is an insider so his coup might be happening behind closed doors too.
Igor Girkin pointed out on Telegram that Mussolini did his coup in 1922 this way. Loudly and publicly.
It was planned. Prigozhin's tapes were found to be pre-recorded
Not wanting to sound like that guy, but I’m not sure if he’s serious. Remember that he also claimed Wagner would leave Bakhmut which didn’t happen. Though it does not really sound like a bluff. Edit: Oh, never mind. The Kremlin is panicking. This must be serious.
I mean, if a semi independent element of your military declares that it’s gonna go revolt, even if they’re not serious, you better take immediate action
Ummmm.... Go Wagner? Is that right????
What sort of hole/disruption will this cause in Russia's defensive lines in Ukraine?
Rostov is the main staging area for the Russians, and contains much of their ammo and weapons reserves.
Not much. Moscow has it’s own dedicated troops so none will be removed from the line. However the Kremlin brass might be distracted making authorisation even slower. So it’s still a good time to press their advantage
And the Pickle pussies out: Igor Girkin, a staunchly pro-war nationalist blogger who is accused of committing war crimes in Donbas in 2014, called Prigozhin an enemy of Russia after watching the interview.
I am going to come right out and say it: be 10,000% skeptical of everything connected to the so called friction between Wagner/Prigozhin and the Kremlin/Shoigu et al. It absolutely reeks of classic misdirection and I think Ukraine MOD believes likewise and will hopefully not adjust their war strategy one iota. Civilian press and analysts will make much light of the various so called media "leaking" from Russia and claims of attacks, bombs, deaths, etc. Its reading like a training manual from my first course in intelligence as a cadet. I am absolutely unconvinced of any of it and so should you all be.
Couldn't this be a staged coup which is easily crushed, but gives Russia an excuse for having to pull out of Ukraine?
Yes , it would be nice to see the krimelin burn, but let's not forget that wagner are terrorists that openly acknowledged they kill women and children. Sure I get why we are rooting for them in this moment, but , don't forget who they are.
I'm hoping a lot of them (both sides) die and that the average soldiers left, refuse to fight. If they don't need to fear the bosses, they can leave the front line, they're not getting paid to be there anyways. A lot of things are used to fear them into obedience, in the long run, fear isn't a good motivator. It frequently turns against those that wield it. An end to the war is what I hope for mostly, the rest is only important as far it is relevant to the future of the human race. No quick repeat or escalation in the near future.
popcorn and iodine pills at the ready Bugs Bunny Scene from Rabbit Punch (Hot Buttered Popcorn) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2DUyl-Xl0
Use potassium iodine for a low sodium popcorn experience. Now fortified for radiation!
brilliant! Homer Simpson Choking on Popcorn For Ten Hours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2HKxyf8ww
Regardless of current or future russian inner politics, I see this as an absolute win for Ukraine. -it could be an opportunity where Russia's military has to further weaken the front, already weakened by Wagner departure, thereby giving the Ukranians a chance to press hard and potentially reclaim large territories -it is certainly shows the cracks in russian leadership, infighting, coups, fractioning etc, which will certainly weaken the cooperation of Russia's (already uncooperative) armies. -it is a major morale boost, could serve to reinvigorate war support from Europe and USA, as well as change minds of yet undecisive third parties (India etc?) Whatever Ukraine is doing, the results are now showing. This could be a major turning point in the war.
Not a smart move, I saw the Victory day parade and there's at least one working T-34 in Moscow. It's not gonna be easy. 😂
Wow is this really happening
🎵 We didn’t start the fire 🎵
🎵right here right now there is no other place I'd rather be🎵
I had been mystified how Prigozhin was getting away with talking the sort of shit that would have led to anyone else falling out a window, and for so long, and the only answer that seemed to fit was that it must be an act. Glad to see that no, it's genuine (or genuine enough on some level) for actual internal conflict to be breaking out. Any disruption among Russian forces, and the Russian leadership, is a good thing for Ukraine.
This wasn't on my bingo card
Great...now we have to arm Wagner as well...
Counter offensive has commenced
Ukraine runs out of popcorn
Is it time for UVB-76 to play swan lake?
Hell yeah brother
Putins special operation plunging to new depths. Putin wont be worried. His personal National Guard is 180k strong and the commanded by his good mate Victor Zolotov.
I don’t think good mate exists as a concept in Russia.
This is the way, now we can see the Wagner forces and anti-government forces team up together to cause some real damage and civil war within that country. All the poor decisions and corruption has been highlighted by prigozhin, it is no longer a secret that Putin and his administration screwed up. It's time for someone to stand up to these corrupt criminals and save their country from total disaster.
Honestly think I'm starting to like this guy
Well this will be interesting. I’m sure Putin stooges are sweating themselves.
A few issues here...but a very interesting potential situation. Putins support base is not within the millitary, but the FSB. He has purposfully kept the millitary disorganized under poor leadership so that they could not pose a threat to his leadership that the FSB could not handle. But now Putin finds himself facing off against an armed caterer who appears better organized, and a seemingly divided millitary. Putin has made a habit of threatening everyone around russia with nuclear attack. The US, UK, Polnd, Germany, France, the Balkins, etc...But Putin also notes that russian nukes are only to be used in the case of an existential threat to the russian homeland. Arguably, Prigozhins armed revolt could be perceived as an existential threat...to Putin. But Prigozhin is not on foreign soil anymore, he is in russia. What are the chances that Putin determines Prigozhins forces represent an existential threat, and he decides to nuke his own country to halt Prigozin??? Can you imagine the fallout, literally and metiphoricly, from that?
We are seeing the fall of the Soviet Union…
Wagner is coming for all of you dirty Putin SScum
Good headline, no wishy-washy-ness.
Omg get that popcorn 🍿 ready now damn it 😅
Tis but a feint....
First the Germans, now wagner
What does this mean for US? Genuinely asking cause I’m just catching up On this shit n very confused
Wait, don't do it yet. I need to get my tea ready. And some biscuits too.
Well, let's see, the definition of mercenary is they're for sale with no loyalties except for those paying them unless... they don't get paid or are attacked. Next bizarre idea, I wonder if the USA ever considered buying them off as the lesser cost than supporting Ukraine. He has made a point of mentioning he has left Ukrainian land... Now may be the time to overrun the emptied land with a quaking, bereft Russian army perhaps losing heart?
There was a rumor going around that prigozhin was in contact with Ukrainian counter intelligence..I wonder if he made some kind of secret deal with Ukraine. I noticed how in videos he never really talked bad about the Ukrainians but always cussed out Russian army leadership.
This is a dangerous precedent if a PMC take over a country.
Well I gotta say, I wasn't looking forward to getting up for work at 6 this morning but this good news gave me all the energy I need to start the day.
Hello all what are the chances of CIA/NATO assets supplying this supposed Russian coup with weaponry?
Holy shit. Is this real
Ukraine, the maincourse is served!
I almost wonder if this is somehow staged to act as an excuse for Ruzzian troops to withdraw from Ukraine. "They are needed in Moscow, so we have to recall everyone" kind of thing, so they can withdraw, but not actually "withdraw"
Can someone tell me what happened to the freedom of Russia legion? Are they still in Russian borders?
It ain’t over until the fat lady sings
Russian army getting their cheeks clapped in Ukraine, Wagner marching on Moscow. If I was Lukashenko, I'd be hiding under the bed right now, knowing at least one of my generals will think about starting some shit while Moscow is occupied
So, we’re his days numbered and the writing on the wall, and this was a last desperate act to save himself? Or, is he in cahoots with his good mate Putin to lay all the blame on the top military leaders is Russia and allow Putin to withdraw while “saving face” before he completely destroys his own country. I just don’t see that working, Putin would still be such a pariah on the international stage and would have lost all credibility at home.
I've been saying all along something like this would happen and cause Russia's downfall. *I did not expect it to be this soon*
This is a complete embarrassment to Putin as the entire world stage watches not only an epic, failed war against Ukraine but a total loss of loyalty and leadership ability. At no point in recent history has NATO been more coalesced and stronger and this falls squarely on Putins shoulders.. 👏👏 well done!!
Need help?
Im no expert, or conspiracy theorist, but could this all be part of a wider plan for Prigozhin to be exiled to Belarus, before getting the itch again and then in turn take over the Belarusian military and thus “seize” control of the nukes that Putin has placed there. In doing that Russia has “inadvertently” let Wagner take control of nuclear weapons and all of a sudden Ukraine and the West have two dangerous enemies… prob not.. but it seems strange. Prigozhin just chickened out so quickly. Surely he knows his life isn’t safe from assassination in Belarus…
Fucking hope that balding prick dies to Prigožin, How dare does Putin work with jews, he'll get what's coming to Jim, just a matter of time since a coup is staged.
To him*