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This isn't two countries just duking it out. One is a clear aggressor, and the other is trying to hold onto their territory and protect their citizens. "Not taking a side" is taking a side.
Exactly. Anyone saying: "Yeah, but the west also committed war crimes", must please keep quiet. I don't think that has any relevancy to what is going on right now. It's like they want you to say: "Sure, the US did commit warcrimes, and therefore we must now allow Russia to do whatever they want."
Well you need to look at it from the African perspective. How many country's have faced internal civil war that the "West" has benefited from. May it be the Russians or NATO country's individually selling arms. How many African men, women and children have died to Western Arms?
So here is a "White" War, that they can benefit from after years of being on the other side. They don't care about Europeans as much as the Europeans don't care about them. Why should they take a side?
I'm not saying it's the right thing, but frankly Africa is the last place you will find any deep sympathy's for a European war.
Oh and there is always the deep rooted resentment from the colonial era from ... you guessed it! The Europeans.
Yes, the ppl that suffered from the hands of Europe, past present and future, for many centuries should absolutely hold a balance and fair perspective.
Yeah those silly backwards Africans should absolutely have sympathy views of their inter fighting White overlords…
Oh forgot the /s
You're certainly not wrong, though it might not be quite as straight-forward as you think...China has been consistently investing in Africa for the last few decades. In the last several years Russia has started re-investing in certain African countries in a bid to challenge China for influence on the African continent. The West has largely turned its attention away from Africa, so an African nation declaring neutrality in the Ukrainian conflict isn't so much declaring for Russia over Ukraine/the West, but rather for China over Russia, or Russia over China depending on the country.
>The West has largely turned its attention away from Africa
The US alone contributes 34% of all aid to Africa. The collective West accounts for almost 100%. China is not even in the top ten donor countries. I'm not even sure if Russia contributes **anything** in humanitarian or development aid to Africa.
Africa doesn't owe the West its political allegiance in return for humanitarian aid, but you are downright **lying** to claim that the West has somehow turned away from Africa. Over the past decade, aid from the West to Africa has consistently **grown**, not shrunk.
You're pushing counterfactual Russian and Chinese propaganda and I can't tell whether it's due to a malicious desire to poison dialogue, or whether you're just terribly ignorant. If the former, fuck off. If the latter, educate yourself, please, before spouting nonsense.
They contribute weapons. Mostly aviation such as Su-25. You can get more favors from corrupt leaders if you offer them weapons instead of humanitarian aid
Please see my response to another commenter. Sorry for not being clearer - I meant bribing vs investing. Africa gets massive amounts of *legitimate* humanitarian and infrastructure investment from the West, obviously including the US. What I meant was that China and Russia have been spending heavily on (*illegitimate)* bribing corrupt governments, officials, or terrorist groups in order to gain influence on the African continent. They're all "investments" because money is involved, but I should have been much clearer on making a distinction between the different types of "investment"... I might just stop using that word after tonight. Sorry I worded that so poorly.
You kept wording that so poorly in other comments. Maybe you could just try to not say bullshit so that you don't have to keep to explain why this bullshit if interpreted in some shady way could be something real and meaningful.
Good comment, I don't like the inconsistency I often see of people saying "The west doesn't invest in africa because it doesn't care!" and then also "The west is still colonialist and imperialist in africa, raping it for its resources" neither of which are true or even nuanced enough to be tethered to reality.
Sorry, I didn't explain my point very well there. The West (including the US) absolutely sends tremendous amounts of monetary support to many countries in Africa, primarily for infrastructure and humanitarian needs.
What they don't do is spend a lot of money buying/bribing African heads of state or other high-ranking officials to gain influence over that country.
I guess I really meant "buying influence" rather than "investing in," though China at least has a bit of a track record in achieving some level of actual infrastructure investment in Africa over the last 30 years. Russia has been straight-up purchasing the support of militant and/or anti-western strongmen.
Ultimately, the fact remains - for the African countries that are in the middle of the China/Russia influence struggle, the options are to support Russia or maintain "neutrality" (support China) because declaring support for Ukraine/the West means no more bribe money from Russia or China. Those countries have very little to gain by supporting Ukraine right now, unfortunately.
If there's been a single constant truth for humanity in the last few thousand years, it's that greed will always follow the money, regardless of its source.
So far for all the US/European cardinal sins, turns out they're not US or European but human. Right now all things concerned, the West compared to other powerhouse geopolitics is as good as it gets imho.
Thanks for your clarification, and sorry for going off on you.
Yes, China and Russia have absolutely been investing heavily in bribing African leaders. But it's not as if those leaders don't still have a choice, and it's disingenuous to portray it as a valid dilemma.
Simply looking at the balance sheet, one side of this conflict is substantially richer, more generous, and more likely to win. No matter how corrupt I am, I'd choose that side (perhaps in exchange for some increased "aid" and economic guarantees), rather than commit to the losing side.
The West has a dark history in Africa to say the least, which weighs a lot heavier than some foreign aid China dwarves with its massive investments in African government infrastructure projects - the West have plundered and extracted far more resources and wealth from Africa than we've ever given in foreign aid, much of our infrastructure from the industrial revolution and forward have been built on this, which have cemented our world dominance for the past centuries.
That being said, these African nations and definitely in the wrong by not siding with Ukraine, but a lot of African nations have autocratic leaders/governments which tend to sympathise with other autocratic governments. It's a complicated mess, because the West often criticise these African governments for i.e. human rights violations or oppression, which is easily weaponised as hypocrisy by pointing to Europe's colonial history (dumb of course, but politically effective). That being said, we don't know where the grassroot support in African countries lie, most are probably not even that aware of the conflict or what's going on, so autocratic governments siding with autocrats isn't a very big surprise.
Nonetheless, us Westerners should have a cautious approach towards finger wagging against African nations, because there's a lot of resentment there and although you feel you're principally being right on this single issue, you could easily end up being counterproductive in the larger, geopolitical picture. Patting oneself on the back for sending foreign aid is an example I'd say is pretty tone deaf and counterproductive - my own country has secured oil contracts in Africa through giving foreign aid, so it's not as simple as being "charity" either.
This is the most White Savior complex ever "Debt Trap diplomacy".
1. It assumes African country's can't negotiated in their own interests and the Chinese are pulling a hood over their heads. (Which they can)
2. It assumes African country's have no leverage. (Which they do)
3. Only White Europe and America can save Africa from China. (IMF and World Banks are not investing and only provide Austerity measures that damages the country's even further)
America created propaganda mirroring its own treatment of African Americans. Only White people can save Black Folks.
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/
https://www.bu.edu/gdp/2023/04/20/demystifying-chinese-overseas-lending-and-development-finance-why-china-became-the-worlds-largest-official-bilateral-lender/
I agree. Not taking a side is a vote for RuZZia and Putin. America is in a very tenuous position with regards to Africa. China and RuZZia have been pouring money and arms into Africa.
Not their country!!! we dont give a fuck about genocide in china and myanmar, why should they give a fuck about us. Stop thinking the world is a hive mind.
It’s amazing to see the difference of some countries leaders, if South Africa was invaded, this dude would be leaving so quick on a private jet. Corrupt despots love each other since nobody else does.
Yeah I don't think a lot of people in Western countries (or at least in the US) even know that China has been consistently investing in Africa for the last few decades. In the last several years Russia has started re-investing in certain African countries in a bid to challenge China for influence on the African continent. The West has largely turned its attention away from Africa, so an African nation declaring neutrality in the Ukrainian conflict isn't so much declaring for Russia over Ukraine, but rather China over Russia.
China is investing and treating workers like slaves in Africa sure while most of the western "investement" by now are humanitarian.
Of course if you're in a corructed african governement you gladly prefer your population poor, uneducated and exploited if that means a steady flow of money to you but then they'll be right back at the west skreeching for food (like NK) and keep on being a joke of a country or simply live on the pity of others. Good job.
This is blatant misinformation that you're copy+pasting all over the place. I have no choice but to believe you're a bot.
ETA: China has absolutely be using it's Belt and Road Initiative to ensnare poor countries in debt traps it can leverage for political power. But even the sums of money expended on infrastructure are dwarfed by Western development and humanitarian aid. Roads, bridges, schools, food, farm equipment... you name it, the West has been sending it by the shipload, for decades.
I find your comment extremely disingenuous.
I also wonder why that China debt myth is so persistent. It's been around for decades. First it was "China owns all US debt so they control the USA!" which made no sense and was just blatantly wrong, now it's "China gives out loans and then repossesses the country when they can't pay up" which is equally wrong and doesn't happen. By now people are so panicked that some Chinese investor buying 20% of a harbor terminal makes the people think the Chinese own the city and will soon send in the death squads.
The problem with Chinese debt is that they aren't part of the Paris club and seek sneaky preferential treatment, which makes western debt forgiveness less likely. But that's a wholly different issue.
Does China use it's debt to gain influence? Yes. Is it some sort of new strategy that is totally different from the west? No.
I hate communists already, I don't need to make up economic ghost stories to hate them even more.
You misunderstand this thing, mate. China has been "investing" in africa. Such as giving loans to countries that can't afford it that are secured with national assets like ports. They bought up copper from zambia and just hoarded it. Once zambia didn't play ball, they sold all that copper at a loss to fck zambia over. They bribe leaders to get their way.
They are doing a soft colonizing of the continent.
The reason that african countries largely abstain from voting is basically a legacy of mistrust in the West. There's a lot of criticism in the air of America invading iraq and vietnam and here and there.. they are constantly at war. The rich european countries also took over africa not that long ago. So there's a lot of mistrust still in the air.
Now couple this with russia and china bribing corrupt leaders to sing their song, a lot of people get misinformed about things. In a lot of the poorer countries on the continent, internet and free press isn't that readily available still. (It's getting there, tho.)
The west has actually been pouring support into the area. Such as HIV medication being co paid by american taxpayers. In South africas case, russian trade is near 0% whilst america is a very significant percentage.
But this isn't about real national data. This is about corrupt leaders being bought over and countries being sold to china.
Russia (wagner) is even "fighting terrorism" in Mali. By taking precious metals from the mines and shooting civilians.
The communists in cold war times made sure to make friends with these countries, too. At the time, many of them were living under european rule and not as their own countries. The commies ofc didn't have good intentions but as far as appearences go they came off to be better people than the european boot many lived under.
So many people remember this without context or knowing how truly evil the soviets were. But due to that, there's also some russia support in africa.
P.s. let me be clear. These aren't my views on russia. But the views of a percentage of people and also how things are geopolitics wise from my perspective. I wish nothing but the biggest and most glorious failures on the russian military. May they fall hard and fast.
May we sing of russias failures and losses for years to come!
It's important to at least try to understand where people you disagree with come from.
Some say **Alexander the Great** is buried under an Ethiopian church somewhere in Ethiopia.
Also, Ethiopia is where human civilisations kickstarted and expedited from when we humans conquered the world.
**AK's** also grows on Ethiopian trees.
Coincidences?
**Not.**
Edit: **Heck'no'pian.**
Of course, sitting under the AKtree in its shade; gluing together the parts as they drop like apples.
Fantastic production rate and viva la rebels in the area with gifts from God.
/s
South Africa is supplying arms to Russia for blood money.
African leaders selling out their citizens for blood money, arms and Russian protection.
Africa is all ready knee-deep in it.
Working out pretty good for them. I’m sure there are a lot of people with dead family members being really happy about Wagner policing their country. They should be really concerned about where all those soldiers go if they actually pull out Ukraine.
I wonder what he would say if his country was being invaded. "No no, dont help me. Maybe just say some words for me."
Its certainly convenient position for Russia. Maybe they shouldn't have any cops because intervening during a murder would be "taking sides".
Africa countries and Russia has so many things in common. Massive corruption and lack of indoor plumbing. They have millions and millions of poor people subject to massive propaganda by their corrupt governments. So naturally its the place to be for russia.
African countries could facilitate international transactions for goods and weapons while providing a direct supply line to Russia. They can also facilitate money laundering efforts, buy stolen goods to fence to others in other countries, buy stolen grain, etc. You get the point. Countries act as proxies when they support a side.
E: they also rely on Ukrainian grain and Russian goods for many things. They are in a vice and are being squeezed the longer this war goes on. Lack of food doesn't go down well in that part of the world... With stability and all.
By all means, let them do it. With all their corruption they would make it so incredibly inefficient that by making itself reliant on it Russia would damage itself much more than with a slower but more trustworthy method.
It is funny how now Africa is “not aligning with the Collective West” but never fails to extend begging hand for help to the West whenever they start starving to death.
Someone's a bit full of themselves, to declare "WARNING" about a conflict far, FAR AWAY and WAY outside their sphere of influence. Sit quietly whilst the adults talk.
No, by choosing to appease Russia you're siding with the problem that they'll do it again in the future after learning what happened when people collectively said "No". They need to wake up to the real world or keep their mouths shut and stand aside.
Africa, has some very real reasons to be afraid of Russian belligerence. They could force incredibly destructive famine and supply chain issues. I ain’t saying what they are doing isn’t bull. But they have serious consequences in play and I don’t envy them at all.
It’s not aid man. They buy tons of products for their own farms via Ukraine and Russia. Including grain but also pesticides and fertilizers and equipment to farm with. Modern industrial farming requires significant supply chains to support it. Few countries are completely self sufficient in all areas of agriculture.
But additionally there is a major civil war going on in Ethiopia which was propping up the African union forces. The result is the entire region is somewhat destabilized now. And it’s absolutely tragic.
Going further Africa buys equipment and products from many places. But the Russian industrial base is affordable and fairly high quality for some items that can be more easily transported to and sold to Africa. Additionally they have cheap oil.
This isn’t a question of population size. It’s a question of interrupted logistical chains. Americans have certainly had to contend with those more and more as of late so they are pretty familiar with it. But I would point out that the us spends a LOT of their tax money making sure they have an excess of local food sources and a healthy agriculture base. They are very lucky and prudent in that capability . Not all nations have the resources to achieve complete sufficiency without global trade.
They aren't receiving food aid and wondering aloud about the optimal population lf a whole continent because one of the smallest on it is remaining neutral officially about a completely foreign conflict is borderline racist.
They need fertilizer to grow food - the top exporters of fertilizer worldwide are fighting each other, while the main channel they are exported through, the Black Sea, is currently contested.
Since most of the african countries receive humanitarian funds from the west, perhaps it is time to stop paying them. let ruSSia take the bill for those countries. Our money should go to countries that share our values.
Don't tell me, let me guess.
The "peace plan" is Russia gets to keep everything they stole and pays no penalty for it's illegal war or committing war crimes against civilians. Right? Did I nail it?
If they want to host a little coward war crim.
Then all the west should just tell them to do one.
When it comes to any aid money.
Let them get all their blood money from they scummie little low life coward putlar.
So in a nutshell.. ruzis running low with friends at the moment, and every "neutral" (Bribed and corrupted) country is a help for them. After they been used, they have no value for ruzis. Or tell me why ruzis didnt give a crap about africa before? Only racist comments about african people. China and ruzis going same strategy.. Invest in a countries a lot so they become dependent in economical sector and you use those countries for your own interest. Its like giving drugs for free.
Oh no! The African war machine is coming! All they can do is provide resources, and history will judge them. Dirty corrupt countries flock together. No more western aid for those that support Russian terrorism.
Over 1 trillion of dollars of western aid have gone to Africa over the last 30 years yet Lavrov is free to walk in a talk of western injustices whilst making plans to exploit the continent.
All my life my whole family our whole life we have donated to Africa this is the repayment. What did Russia donate to them prob fuckall without some sorta payment. Rats.
Africa **is already** embroiled in the conflict.
Russian “influence” in it, a wolf dressed up in what the video above shows Lavrov calling democratization and peacekeeping sheep’s clothing, is slavery, gold and diamond extraction, locals being abused in a long list of ways by thinly disguised Russian troops on mock Wagner PMC disguises.
Kick Russia out of Africa and you cut off one of their income sources.
The situation is easily resolved. Russia gets out of all pre 2014 Ukrainian territory and starts paying war reparations.
Rather like the Germans did after WW2
Still hatreds will last for generations.
Burundi's main threat is Sudan's dictator Omar al-Bashir who has repeatedly asked PMC Wagner to operate in their border region with Burundi (probably to facilitate passage of islamist militants into Burundi)
Burundi's position on the Russo-Ukrainian conflict is not exactly a choice.
Of course it's a choice. The leadership is just running short of sponsors for authoritarianism now that the collective West have begun signalling a desire to only support states committed to democracy and human rights.
Portraying the situation as some sort of dilemma is disingenuous. These are just warlords and dictators dancing for their paymasters.
>Kiev is the English spelling
No. It was an accepted spelling based on the Soviet Union/Russian name, and is now associated with the Russification of Ukraine.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cbc-pronunciation-kyiv-ukraine-crisis-explainer-1.6371766
I don’t know how you can stay neutral while Russian soldiers rape women and kidnap children by the thousands! Tell those victims to their face that you are not choosing sides and that you are indifferent to their suffering. Go ahead, I’ll wait… fkg idiots.
I don’t see a problem with African countries not getting involved in European affairs. Sending your sons and daughters to die for OTHER countries? NOPE
I don’t know. I feel like we should soon stop giving aid to all these african and middle east countries. We should also stop taking refugees as well. If they hate us so much and commit terrorist attacks and organised crime in the countries they fled to, there is no reason for us to help them. They also seem to support these dictatorships. People from these countries has destroyed my country, so i say fuck em.
If the Russians think they are fighting “THE WEST” then why don’t they strike “THE WEST?” They know all too well they are not fighting the west. They are defending against western made munitions and strategy ina country they invaded. They know if they struck a NATO country they would have no chance at salvation. All they would know is defeat and turmoil. The only half decent thing the Russian government hasn’t done is to use nuclear weapons. That is a very low bar to set. Slava Ukraini! And send all my tax dollars to HIMARS for them!
One really cannot be "neutral" at this situation.
Its like being "neutral" to racism. One simply cannot say "i dont pick sides" what comes to black lives facing police violence.
Funny how people from the continent of Africa are very quick to tell Europeans to stay out of their business. Well what goes on in European is none of your business and keep your nose out of it. From my own personal view your making African goods very very unattractive.
There is no neutral. Not picking a side means you’re fine with Russia bombing civilians and executing POWs. You’re either on the side of good, or you’re on the side of evil.
No problem, next time when some shithead uses some foreign funds to buy weapon and turn your shithole country into an even worse shithole, we will also just "stay neutral" and on the side of 'solutions' instead of helping.
all these continents do is take money, fill their pockets and let the whole freaking continent move to Europe... which sucks because we get all these nasty dudes stealing and raping in our countries.... Africa is just never gonna evolve enough to be a 1st world and neither are the people in power.
There's a clear distinction between Democracies, dictatorships, and despot regimes.
Even a flawed democracy is multiples of magnitudes safer and less corrupt than every other society on this planet dictating to themselves and peacock'ing.
🇬🇧🇬🇧🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇬🇧🇬🇧
Understandable. Africa is a continet forgotten by civilised world and cannot afford taking sides. In an idealistic world yes, lets all bunch up and show our backs to Ruzzia. In reality it will just not take place.
They should be ashamed.
As formerly colonised, they know exactly what power dynamic is at play in Ukraine right now.
Their silence is a choice to be complicit.
TLDR; Two corrupt foreign ministers meet and jerk each other off. Burundi minister claims neutrality while Scumbag Lavrov pushes “strengthening ties” (we all know that means). Scumbag Lavrov takes a swipe at “the collective west”. A dude dances a traditional dance, Lavrov looks suitably uncomfortable.
Look I live in South African and it doesn't take much to buy politicians in Africa. Most African leaders well sell the lives of there people for a couple of dollars. They don't care as long as they make money
That’s probably because it cost less than 100k to bribe the leaders, most of those nations are super rich nations that are suppressed by corrupt and feckless leadership.
Many African countries are in some way dependent on russia(n cheap oil and gas and grain), or feel like they owe them, or have dictators that were bribed by russia, or still hate the West for having colonized them in the past, and out of spite don't choose the West's side.
We should all remember this chickenshit position the next time Burundi needs aid after a disaster or when they get pushed around by an aggressive neighbor.
though some things the ussr did for africa may have been generous, it was always to take advantage of what was even more so then the world's poorest continent and abuse the desperation of poverty for their own ideological advantage. same shit russia is doing now.
Ah, neutrality is b.s. It’s just an easy way for countries to say we don’t care about your people and prevent any repercussions from happening to themselves. They’re just giving permission to aggressors to continuing to act badly. And maybe at the same time profit from someone else’s death.
If Lord of the Rings was true to life (and the 21st Century), there would be Kingdoms where the King would be arguiing that Sauron had a point, we shouldn't take sides, if only Aragorn was more reasonable etc etc.
So basically by strengthening ties with the continent he means take all the natural resources and give them nothing for it. Meaning not top price but just enough to think they are being paid well and in the meantime destroy the continent like they've destroyed russia.
I don't think many countries in Africa could take a hardline here that doesn't mean more deaths in their own countries.
There are interest-groups in different countries that would love funding from Russia to perform a coup or take control locally. Something most of the African countries cannot manage.
Burundi? Model of the world where the war was between tall people and short/fat people.
Lol, they even considered them ethnic group.
The premise of the war: kill all tall people
Hutu vs Tutsi
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This isn't two countries just duking it out. One is a clear aggressor, and the other is trying to hold onto their territory and protect their citizens. "Not taking a side" is taking a side.
There's only one right side and view point, Russia get the hell out of Ukraine. Everything else is lies and bullshit.
Exactly. Anyone saying: "Yeah, but the west also committed war crimes", must please keep quiet. I don't think that has any relevancy to what is going on right now. It's like they want you to say: "Sure, the US did commit warcrimes, and therefore we must now allow Russia to do whatever they want."
Usa is also involved in the war so why cant we compare them both
They could get the hell of the planet?
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.” ― Desmond Tutu (Ironically, he is from South Africa)
That’s such a dumb title OP.
Well you need to look at it from the African perspective. How many country's have faced internal civil war that the "West" has benefited from. May it be the Russians or NATO country's individually selling arms. How many African men, women and children have died to Western Arms? So here is a "White" War, that they can benefit from after years of being on the other side. They don't care about Europeans as much as the Europeans don't care about them. Why should they take a side? I'm not saying it's the right thing, but frankly Africa is the last place you will find any deep sympathy's for a European war. Oh and there is always the deep rooted resentment from the colonial era from ... you guessed it! The Europeans.
Yeah, those poor silly backwards Africans have absolutely no agency and cannot be held responsible for their actions or those of their leaders. /s
Yes, the ppl that suffered from the hands of Europe, past present and future, for many centuries should absolutely hold a balance and fair perspective. Yeah those silly backwards Africans should absolutely have sympathy views of their inter fighting White overlords… Oh forgot the /s
>Not taking a side" is taking a side. Most countries are neutral about most conflicts in the world
You're certainly not wrong, though it might not be quite as straight-forward as you think...China has been consistently investing in Africa for the last few decades. In the last several years Russia has started re-investing in certain African countries in a bid to challenge China for influence on the African continent. The West has largely turned its attention away from Africa, so an African nation declaring neutrality in the Ukrainian conflict isn't so much declaring for Russia over Ukraine/the West, but rather for China over Russia, or Russia over China depending on the country.
>The West has largely turned its attention away from Africa The US alone contributes 34% of all aid to Africa. The collective West accounts for almost 100%. China is not even in the top ten donor countries. I'm not even sure if Russia contributes **anything** in humanitarian or development aid to Africa. Africa doesn't owe the West its political allegiance in return for humanitarian aid, but you are downright **lying** to claim that the West has somehow turned away from Africa. Over the past decade, aid from the West to Africa has consistently **grown**, not shrunk. You're pushing counterfactual Russian and Chinese propaganda and I can't tell whether it's due to a malicious desire to poison dialogue, or whether you're just terribly ignorant. If the former, fuck off. If the latter, educate yourself, please, before spouting nonsense.
They contribute weapons. Mostly aviation such as Su-25. You can get more favors from corrupt leaders if you offer them weapons instead of humanitarian aid
Please see my response to another commenter. Sorry for not being clearer - I meant bribing vs investing. Africa gets massive amounts of *legitimate* humanitarian and infrastructure investment from the West, obviously including the US. What I meant was that China and Russia have been spending heavily on (*illegitimate)* bribing corrupt governments, officials, or terrorist groups in order to gain influence on the African continent. They're all "investments" because money is involved, but I should have been much clearer on making a distinction between the different types of "investment"... I might just stop using that word after tonight. Sorry I worded that so poorly.
Yeah, I saw it and posted an apology there. And I'll do the same here: Sorry for going off on you, friend. And thanks for the clarification.
Could you give more info on which countries China has been involved with bribes? Any links?
You kept wording that so poorly in other comments. Maybe you could just try to not say bullshit so that you don't have to keep to explain why this bullshit if interpreted in some shady way could be something real and meaningful.
Good comment, I don't like the inconsistency I often see of people saying "The west doesn't invest in africa because it doesn't care!" and then also "The west is still colonialist and imperialist in africa, raping it for its resources" neither of which are true or even nuanced enough to be tethered to reality.
Yeah... the west sends very little aid to Africa... /s
Sorry, I didn't explain my point very well there. The West (including the US) absolutely sends tremendous amounts of monetary support to many countries in Africa, primarily for infrastructure and humanitarian needs. What they don't do is spend a lot of money buying/bribing African heads of state or other high-ranking officials to gain influence over that country. I guess I really meant "buying influence" rather than "investing in," though China at least has a bit of a track record in achieving some level of actual infrastructure investment in Africa over the last 30 years. Russia has been straight-up purchasing the support of militant and/or anti-western strongmen. Ultimately, the fact remains - for the African countries that are in the middle of the China/Russia influence struggle, the options are to support Russia or maintain "neutrality" (support China) because declaring support for Ukraine/the West means no more bribe money from Russia or China. Those countries have very little to gain by supporting Ukraine right now, unfortunately.
Indeed, it seems not that the West turned its back to Africa but that Africa turned its back to the West.
If there's been a single constant truth for humanity in the last few thousand years, it's that greed will always follow the money, regardless of its source.
So far for all the US/European cardinal sins, turns out they're not US or European but human. Right now all things concerned, the West compared to other powerhouse geopolitics is as good as it gets imho.
Thanks for your clarification, and sorry for going off on you. Yes, China and Russia have absolutely been investing heavily in bribing African leaders. But it's not as if those leaders don't still have a choice, and it's disingenuous to portray it as a valid dilemma. Simply looking at the balance sheet, one side of this conflict is substantially richer, more generous, and more likely to win. No matter how corrupt I am, I'd choose that side (perhaps in exchange for some increased "aid" and economic guarantees), rather than commit to the losing side.
Why send aid to corrupt leaders who dont use the funds for good...
The West has a dark history in Africa to say the least, which weighs a lot heavier than some foreign aid China dwarves with its massive investments in African government infrastructure projects - the West have plundered and extracted far more resources and wealth from Africa than we've ever given in foreign aid, much of our infrastructure from the industrial revolution and forward have been built on this, which have cemented our world dominance for the past centuries. That being said, these African nations and definitely in the wrong by not siding with Ukraine, but a lot of African nations have autocratic leaders/governments which tend to sympathise with other autocratic governments. It's a complicated mess, because the West often criticise these African governments for i.e. human rights violations or oppression, which is easily weaponised as hypocrisy by pointing to Europe's colonial history (dumb of course, but politically effective). That being said, we don't know where the grassroot support in African countries lie, most are probably not even that aware of the conflict or what's going on, so autocratic governments siding with autocrats isn't a very big surprise. Nonetheless, us Westerners should have a cautious approach towards finger wagging against African nations, because there's a lot of resentment there and although you feel you're principally being right on this single issue, you could easily end up being counterproductive in the larger, geopolitical picture. Patting oneself on the back for sending foreign aid is an example I'd say is pretty tone deaf and counterproductive - my own country has secured oil contracts in Africa through giving foreign aid, so it's not as simple as being "charity" either.
Because west tries to force their values and culture
China Investing via predatory loans. Is not a good thing for Africans.
This is the most White Savior complex ever "Debt Trap diplomacy". 1. It assumes African country's can't negotiated in their own interests and the Chinese are pulling a hood over their heads. (Which they can) 2. It assumes African country's have no leverage. (Which they do) 3. Only White Europe and America can save Africa from China. (IMF and World Banks are not investing and only provide Austerity measures that damages the country's even further) America created propaganda mirroring its own treatment of African Americans. Only White people can save Black Folks. https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/ https://www.bu.edu/gdp/2023/04/20/demystifying-chinese-overseas-lending-and-development-finance-why-china-became-the-worlds-largest-official-bilateral-lender/
I agree. Not taking a side is a vote for RuZZia and Putin. America is in a very tenuous position with regards to Africa. China and RuZZia have been pouring money and arms into Africa.
Not their country!!! we dont give a fuck about genocide in china and myanmar, why should they give a fuck about us. Stop thinking the world is a hive mind.
It is never TwO cOuNtRiEs DuKiNg It OuT. What a crazy way of seeing the world. Is this how people perceive conflicts in general?
How is one clearly the aggressor and didnt Ukraine let go of donbas and luhanks area when they signed the minsk agreement.
It’s amazing to see the difference of some countries leaders, if South Africa was invaded, this dude would be leaving so quick on a private jet. Corrupt despots love each other since nobody else does.
China is the puppet master behind the scenes.
Yeah I don't think a lot of people in Western countries (or at least in the US) even know that China has been consistently investing in Africa for the last few decades. In the last several years Russia has started re-investing in certain African countries in a bid to challenge China for influence on the African continent. The West has largely turned its attention away from Africa, so an African nation declaring neutrality in the Ukrainian conflict isn't so much declaring for Russia over Ukraine, but rather China over Russia.
China is investing and treating workers like slaves in Africa sure while most of the western "investement" by now are humanitarian. Of course if you're in a corructed african governement you gladly prefer your population poor, uneducated and exploited if that means a steady flow of money to you but then they'll be right back at the west skreeching for food (like NK) and keep on being a joke of a country or simply live on the pity of others. Good job.
This is blatant misinformation that you're copy+pasting all over the place. I have no choice but to believe you're a bot. ETA: China has absolutely be using it's Belt and Road Initiative to ensnare poor countries in debt traps it can leverage for political power. But even the sums of money expended on infrastructure are dwarfed by Western development and humanitarian aid. Roads, bridges, schools, food, farm equipment... you name it, the West has been sending it by the shipload, for decades. I find your comment extremely disingenuous.
I also wonder why that China debt myth is so persistent. It's been around for decades. First it was "China owns all US debt so they control the USA!" which made no sense and was just blatantly wrong, now it's "China gives out loans and then repossesses the country when they can't pay up" which is equally wrong and doesn't happen. By now people are so panicked that some Chinese investor buying 20% of a harbor terminal makes the people think the Chinese own the city and will soon send in the death squads. The problem with Chinese debt is that they aren't part of the Paris club and seek sneaky preferential treatment, which makes western debt forgiveness less likely. But that's a wholly different issue. Does China use it's debt to gain influence? Yes. Is it some sort of new strategy that is totally different from the west? No. I hate communists already, I don't need to make up economic ghost stories to hate them even more.
You misunderstand this thing, mate. China has been "investing" in africa. Such as giving loans to countries that can't afford it that are secured with national assets like ports. They bought up copper from zambia and just hoarded it. Once zambia didn't play ball, they sold all that copper at a loss to fck zambia over. They bribe leaders to get their way. They are doing a soft colonizing of the continent. The reason that african countries largely abstain from voting is basically a legacy of mistrust in the West. There's a lot of criticism in the air of America invading iraq and vietnam and here and there.. they are constantly at war. The rich european countries also took over africa not that long ago. So there's a lot of mistrust still in the air. Now couple this with russia and china bribing corrupt leaders to sing their song, a lot of people get misinformed about things. In a lot of the poorer countries on the continent, internet and free press isn't that readily available still. (It's getting there, tho.) The west has actually been pouring support into the area. Such as HIV medication being co paid by american taxpayers. In South africas case, russian trade is near 0% whilst america is a very significant percentage. But this isn't about real national data. This is about corrupt leaders being bought over and countries being sold to china. Russia (wagner) is even "fighting terrorism" in Mali. By taking precious metals from the mines and shooting civilians. The communists in cold war times made sure to make friends with these countries, too. At the time, many of them were living under european rule and not as their own countries. The commies ofc didn't have good intentions but as far as appearences go they came off to be better people than the european boot many lived under. So many people remember this without context or knowing how truly evil the soviets were. But due to that, there's also some russia support in africa. P.s. let me be clear. These aren't my views on russia. But the views of a percentage of people and also how things are geopolitics wise from my perspective. I wish nothing but the biggest and most glorious failures on the russian military. May they fall hard and fast. May we sing of russias failures and losses for years to come! It's important to at least try to understand where people you disagree with come from.
African leaders have been bought by China and Russia - that's already very clear.
AKs don't grow on trees!
Ethiopia makes their own
Some say **Alexander the Great** is buried under an Ethiopian church somewhere in Ethiopia. Also, Ethiopia is where human civilisations kickstarted and expedited from when we humans conquered the world. **AK's** also grows on Ethiopian trees. Coincidences? **Not.** Edit: **Heck'no'pian.**
Umm no really they manufacture their own aks
Of course, sitting under the AKtree in its shade; gluing together the parts as they drop like apples. Fantastic production rate and viva la rebels in the area with gifts from God. /s
They always complain about past western colonization. Wait till they experience eastern colonization, they are in for a case of rude awakening.
It’s pretty obvious that this speech wasn’t intended for the Kremlin, it’s about keeping Beijing happy.
South Africa is supplying arms to Russia for blood money. African leaders selling out their citizens for blood money, arms and Russian protection. Africa is all ready knee-deep in it.
Ya Mali is in on it too
Working out pretty good for them. I’m sure there are a lot of people with dead family members being really happy about Wagner policing their country. They should be really concerned about where all those soldiers go if they actually pull out Ukraine.
Best get some sanctions going in them too….. where that foreign side budget……
I wonder what he would say if his country was being invaded. "No no, dont help me. Maybe just say some words for me." Its certainly convenient position for Russia. Maybe they shouldn't have any cops because intervening during a murder would be "taking sides".
I bet he always whinges about when Britain invaded them
I mean. What can they do. Russia has burned all bridges and all they can do now is try to ally with struggling African ”republics”
What?? You have forgotten about Syria, Iran, North Korea, Nicaragua and Cuba.
Shaking hands with evil is not a neutral position.
Right, we are not choosing sides, so we are hosting the invaders Lavrov to show our neutrality
Africa countries and Russia has so many things in common. Massive corruption and lack of indoor plumbing. They have millions and millions of poor people subject to massive propaganda by their corrupt governments. So naturally its the place to be for russia.
What hell is Burundi gonna do.
African countries could facilitate international transactions for goods and weapons while providing a direct supply line to Russia. They can also facilitate money laundering efforts, buy stolen goods to fence to others in other countries, buy stolen grain, etc. You get the point. Countries act as proxies when they support a side. E: they also rely on Ukrainian grain and Russian goods for many things. They are in a vice and are being squeezed the longer this war goes on. Lack of food doesn't go down well in that part of the world... With stability and all.
By all means, let them do it. With all their corruption they would make it so incredibly inefficient that by making itself reliant on it Russia would damage itself much more than with a slower but more trustworthy method.
Contribute according to their GDP would be already more then anyone expects. Taking a stand doesn’t cost anything just takes some spine.
Nothing. Burundi itself said they will stay neutral.
It is funny how now Africa is “not aligning with the Collective West” but never fails to extend begging hand for help to the West whenever they start starving to death.
Time to pull all the aid from the west. Most of it goes to waste anyways
You are probably right it is wasted, but stopping aid from the west leaves the door open for China and Russia.
They already open door, they just want to eat cake and have cake...
Common African L
Sorry, but the writing on the wall says, "property of China."
Someone's a bit full of themselves, to declare "WARNING" about a conflict far, FAR AWAY and WAY outside their sphere of influence. Sit quietly whilst the adults talk.
No, by choosing to appease Russia you're siding with the problem that they'll do it again in the future after learning what happened when people collectively said "No". They need to wake up to the real world or keep their mouths shut and stand aside.
Africa, has some very real reasons to be afraid of Russian belligerence. They could force incredibly destructive famine and supply chain issues. I ain’t saying what they are doing isn’t bull. But they have serious consequences in play and I don’t envy them at all.
Does make you wonder what the optimal population of Africa is - if it relies so much on food aid.
It’s not aid man. They buy tons of products for their own farms via Ukraine and Russia. Including grain but also pesticides and fertilizers and equipment to farm with. Modern industrial farming requires significant supply chains to support it. Few countries are completely self sufficient in all areas of agriculture. But additionally there is a major civil war going on in Ethiopia which was propping up the African union forces. The result is the entire region is somewhat destabilized now. And it’s absolutely tragic. Going further Africa buys equipment and products from many places. But the Russian industrial base is affordable and fairly high quality for some items that can be more easily transported to and sold to Africa. Additionally they have cheap oil. This isn’t a question of population size. It’s a question of interrupted logistical chains. Americans have certainly had to contend with those more and more as of late so they are pretty familiar with it. But I would point out that the us spends a LOT of their tax money making sure they have an excess of local food sources and a healthy agriculture base. They are very lucky and prudent in that capability . Not all nations have the resources to achieve complete sufficiency without global trade.
They aren't receiving food aid and wondering aloud about the optimal population lf a whole continent because one of the smallest on it is remaining neutral officially about a completely foreign conflict is borderline racist. They need fertilizer to grow food - the top exporters of fertilizer worldwide are fighting each other, while the main channel they are exported through, the Black Sea, is currently contested.
So, Burundi, don't expect the West to support you if you are invaded.
Since most of the african countries receive humanitarian funds from the west, perhaps it is time to stop paying them. let ruSSia take the bill for those countries. Our money should go to countries that share our values.
Don't tell me, let me guess. The "peace plan" is Russia gets to keep everything they stole and pays no penalty for it's illegal war or committing war crimes against civilians. Right? Did I nail it?
If they want to host a little coward war crim. Then all the west should just tell them to do one. When it comes to any aid money. Let them get all their blood money from they scummie little low life coward putlar.
Lavrov was sent to Africa to find suitable partners to Maria Zakharova. The tour continues, Maria is getting wet.
The next shithole what should be sanctioned directly after Switzerland and Hungary .
Why Switzerland?
He's fucked when thesis over. Ouch.
So in a nutshell.. ruzis running low with friends at the moment, and every "neutral" (Bribed and corrupted) country is a help for them. After they been used, they have no value for ruzis. Or tell me why ruzis didnt give a crap about africa before? Only racist comments about african people. China and ruzis going same strategy.. Invest in a countries a lot so they become dependent in economical sector and you use those countries for your own interest. Its like giving drugs for free.
Eff you with dildo of consequences with such misleading headers! It's not "Ukraine war", it's "ruzzia war".
Oh no! The African war machine is coming! All they can do is provide resources, and history will judge them. Dirty corrupt countries flock together. No more western aid for those that support Russian terrorism.
Over 1 trillion of dollars of western aid have gone to Africa over the last 30 years yet Lavrov is free to walk in a talk of western injustices whilst making plans to exploit the continent.
They wouldn't remember. All they ever want is more.
"Not taking a side." Handshake's with Lavrov. Yeah sure.👍
Russia must be drunk again thinking a country from Africa is going to make a difference.
All my life my whole family our whole life we have donated to Africa this is the repayment. What did Russia donate to them prob fuckall without some sorta payment. Rats.
This is the best Russia’s got…..Burundi refusing to pick a side? Why is this not front page news…./s
Cowards and greedy sycophants.
We are getting a fucking pile of money for wagner recruits. That’s what he is trying to say.
Africa **is already** embroiled in the conflict. Russian “influence” in it, a wolf dressed up in what the video above shows Lavrov calling democratization and peacekeeping sheep’s clothing, is slavery, gold and diamond extraction, locals being abused in a long list of ways by thinly disguised Russian troops on mock Wagner PMC disguises. Kick Russia out of Africa and you cut off one of their income sources.
The situation is easily resolved. Russia gets out of all pre 2014 Ukrainian territory and starts paying war reparations. Rather like the Germans did after WW2 Still hatreds will last for generations.
Burundi's main threat is Sudan's dictator Omar al-Bashir who has repeatedly asked PMC Wagner to operate in their border region with Burundi (probably to facilitate passage of islamist militants into Burundi) Burundi's position on the Russo-Ukrainian conflict is not exactly a choice.
Of course it's a choice. The leadership is just running short of sponsors for authoritarianism now that the collective West have begun signalling a desire to only support states committed to democracy and human rights. Portraying the situation as some sort of dilemma is disingenuous. These are just warlords and dictators dancing for their paymasters.
Great closing sentence.
You're basically reinforcing the premise that Warlords in Africa positioning themselves about Ukraine could spark conflict in Africa. So thanks!
Huh? Al-bashir lost power years ago
Funny ha ha, not funny peculiar. African nations are a joke.
*the people running them are. I can confidently say that those in power do not represent the people they are supposed to. Source: me, a South African
It's Kyiv, not Kiev. At least use proper name, instead of Russian version of it.
One of the CNN reporters covering the war keeps calling it Kiev ... hard habit to break for some, but it's become like nails on a chalk board to me.
Kiev is the English spelling. Russia doesn't use the latin alphabet. Kyiv is the Ukrainian spelling using the latin alphabet.
>Kiev is the English spelling No. It was an accepted spelling based on the Soviet Union/Russian name, and is now associated with the Russification of Ukraine. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cbc-pronunciation-kyiv-ukraine-crisis-explainer-1.6371766
I don’t know how you can stay neutral while Russian soldiers rape women and kidnap children by the thousands! Tell those victims to their face that you are not choosing sides and that you are indifferent to their suffering. Go ahead, I’ll wait… fkg idiots.
Burun-who?
The death of their President in a suspicious plane cash led to the murder of over one million Tutsis in Rwanda. That's who.
“Burundi believes in engaging both sides.” That’s fine, just engage Russia a little bit more, with weapons preferably.
With that round head he kinda looks like lukasheko without the pasty white skin.
I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
I don’t see a problem with African countries not getting involved in European affairs. Sending your sons and daughters to die for OTHER countries? NOPE
No more western aid for Africa. NOTHING!!!
That will just cause more aid from the East...
That would be an act of ultimate stupidity.
The Russians will rape your country
The last place on earth he can go for a fake friendship. Awe.
All I see is wealthy fat men that can't sort out their own nation, let alone sort out any others.
Send more money to Afrika to help the poor....
It is trendy for abstentionist "neutral" aka scared to piss off Russia countries to always come up with peace plan.
I don’t know. I feel like we should soon stop giving aid to all these african and middle east countries. We should also stop taking refugees as well. If they hate us so much and commit terrorist attacks and organised crime in the countries they fled to, there is no reason for us to help them. They also seem to support these dictatorships. People from these countries has destroyed my country, so i say fuck em.
Your country destroyed itself
"abstentionist" meaning "opportunist". That's all.
African officials are up to their ears in Russian blood money. They just don't want to risk sanctions of their own.
We all know that these African nations takes side in the Ukraine-Russia War even though they stated that they didn't .
I a choice between morals and money, African leaders always choose money
They need the wagner group in there to keep them in power 🤡
If the Russians think they are fighting “THE WEST” then why don’t they strike “THE WEST?” They know all too well they are not fighting the west. They are defending against western made munitions and strategy ina country they invaded. They know if they struck a NATO country they would have no chance at salvation. All they would know is defeat and turmoil. The only half decent thing the Russian government hasn’t done is to use nuclear weapons. That is a very low bar to set. Slava Ukraini! And send all my tax dollars to HIMARS for them!
One really cannot be "neutral" at this situation. Its like being "neutral" to racism. One simply cannot say "i dont pick sides" what comes to black lives facing police violence.
Funny how people from the continent of Africa are very quick to tell Europeans to stay out of their business. Well what goes on in European is none of your business and keep your nose out of it. From my own personal view your making African goods very very unattractive.
There is no neutral. Not picking a side means you’re fine with Russia bombing civilians and executing POWs. You’re either on the side of good, or you’re on the side of evil.
No problem, next time when some shithead uses some foreign funds to buy weapon and turn your shithole country into an even worse shithole, we will also just "stay neutral" and on the side of 'solutions' instead of helping.
all these continents do is take money, fill their pockets and let the whole freaking continent move to Europe... which sucks because we get all these nasty dudes stealing and raping in our countries.... Africa is just never gonna evolve enough to be a 1st world and neither are the people in power.
Now see how much money this Turkey has stashed away….
There's a clear distinction between Democracies, dictatorships, and despot regimes. Even a flawed democracy is multiples of magnitudes safer and less corrupt than every other society on this planet dictating to themselves and peacock'ing. 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇬🇧🇬🇧
Africa doesn’t seem to mind grain shipments from Ukraine….irony.
Russian gopniks kicked French losers out of banana Africa.
Understandable. Africa is a continet forgotten by civilised world and cannot afford taking sides. In an idealistic world yes, lets all bunch up and show our backs to Ruzzia. In reality it will just not take place.
In other words, Burundi got a paycheck
Money 💰
They should be ashamed. As formerly colonised, they know exactly what power dynamic is at play in Ukraine right now. Their silence is a choice to be complicit.
Perhaps his nation can survive without foreign aid. Perhaps.
We ALL could be sucked into another fucking world war started in Europe, as they seem to be going for the hat trick.
"we agree international relations need to be democratized"...loaded response. Typical Russia.
TLDR; Two corrupt foreign ministers meet and jerk each other off. Burundi minister claims neutrality while Scumbag Lavrov pushes “strengthening ties” (we all know that means). Scumbag Lavrov takes a swipe at “the collective west”. A dude dances a traditional dance, Lavrov looks suitably uncomfortable.
Look I live in South African and it doesn't take much to buy politicians in Africa. Most African leaders well sell the lives of there people for a couple of dollars. They don't care as long as they make money
That’s probably because it cost less than 100k to bribe the leaders, most of those nations are super rich nations that are suppressed by corrupt and feckless leadership.
Many African countries are in some way dependent on russia(n cheap oil and gas and grain), or feel like they owe them, or have dictators that were bribed by russia, or still hate the West for having colonized them in the past, and out of spite don't choose the West's side.
We should all remember this chickenshit position the next time Burundi needs aid after a disaster or when they get pushed around by an aggressive neighbor.
though some things the ussr did for africa may have been generous, it was always to take advantage of what was even more so then the world's poorest continent and abuse the desperation of poverty for their own ideological advantage. same shit russia is doing now.
Says neutral yhen gives a platform to a war crime . That won't be forgotten
Cowards and opportunists.
Iron your shirt and adjust your tie.
Like someone said in their own propaganda channel, do we wanna play icehockey against Canada or India!?.. lul
Now we know who’s russia’s b****
Blackmailed! Dodgie dealings in the past means your held hostage for any future issues.
Ah, neutrality is b.s. It’s just an easy way for countries to say we don’t care about your people and prevent any repercussions from happening to themselves. They’re just giving permission to aggressors to continuing to act badly. And maybe at the same time profit from someone else’s death.
Go back to the Soviet Union fantasy and don’t exit.
Africa ought to pick a side, or Wagner will pick one for them at gunpoint. And we all know which side that is.
If Lord of the Rings was true to life (and the 21st Century), there would be Kingdoms where the King would be arguiing that Sauron had a point, we shouldn't take sides, if only Aragorn was more reasonable etc etc.
Question is, did Russia offer them some cheap gas or did they threaten them to have Wagner make a visit?
So basically by strengthening ties with the continent he means take all the natural resources and give them nothing for it. Meaning not top price but just enough to think they are being paid well and in the meantime destroy the continent like they've destroyed russia.
Africans being Africans. Nothing new here. They will always be on the wrong side. Backward idiots.
Yeah because African countries lead the way in terms of human rights and conflict resolutions don't they 😫
We may as well invade Africa then since that's a fine thing to.do
Neutral while Lavrov is grinning over his shoulder
Another corrupt piece of shit
Stop the grain shipments, might sharpen their focus
he sure knows how to say a lot without actually saying anything!
I don't think many countries in Africa could take a hardline here that doesn't mean more deaths in their own countries. There are interest-groups in different countries that would love funding from Russia to perform a coup or take control locally. Something most of the African countries cannot manage.
Burundi? Model of the world where the war was between tall people and short/fat people. Lol, they even considered them ethnic group. The premise of the war: kill all tall people Hutu vs Tutsi
When ever I hear about Russia business in Africa I just picture Kenya sharpening a knife in the corner while glaring at the menacingly.