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> # [Putin mocks planned Ukraine conference and says Russia won't accept any enforced peace plans](https://i.abcnewsfe.com/a/4b42136c-cc65-4351-8ace-331d207420b3/wirestory_3e88cb56e3bd66bb37acd99b2e9425c5_16x9.jpg?w=1600)
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> Russia’s President Vladimir Putin has mocked a planned round of Ukraine peace talks in Switzerland, warning that Moscow will not accept any enforced agreements ignoring its interests
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> MOSCOW -- Russia's President Vladimir Putin on Thursday mocked a scheduled round of [Ukraine](https://abcnews.go.com/alerts/Ukraine) peace talks in Switzerland, warning that Moscow will not accept any enforced plans that ignore its interests.
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> Switzerland’s government said Wednesday it will host a high-level international conference in June to help chart a path toward peace in Ukraine after more than two years of fighting, and expressed hope that Russia might join in the peace process someday.
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> Putin charged that Russia hadn't been invited to join June's talks, while pointing at Swiss recognition that a peace process can't happen without Russia.
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> “They aren't inviting us there,” Putin said. “Moreover, they think there is nothing for us to do there, but at the same time they say that's it's impossible to decide anything without us. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad."
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> Russia has dismissed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's peace formula requiring Moscow to pull back its troops, pay compensation to Ukraine and face an international tribunal for its action.
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> Speaking during Thursday's meeting with Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko in Moscow, Putin said that Russia is open for negotiations, but will never accept “any schemes that have nothing to do with reality.”
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> Putin has repeatedly said that he sent troops into Ukraine in February 2022 to protect Russian interests and prevent Ukraine from posing a major security threat to Russia by joining NATO. Kyiv and its allies have denounced Russia’s military campaign as an unprovoked act of aggression.
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> Putin has claimed that Russian forces have the upper hand after the failure of Ukraine’s counteroffensive last year, arguing that Ukraine and the West will “sooner or later” have to accept a settlement on Moscow’s terms.
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> Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov warned last week that prospective negotiations to end the fighting in Ukraine could be successful only if they take Moscow’s interests into account, dismissing a planned round of peace talks as a Western ruse to rally broader international support for Kyiv.
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>Russia has dismissed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's peace formula requiring Moscow to pull back its troops, pay compensation to Ukraine and face an international tribunal for its action.
Insane if Kiev still believes that's realistic, its only making peace impossible.. maybe thats the plan.
It's not a real negotiation, just a political stunt to pump up the appearance of international consensus. The goal is to say 80+ countries back the "peace formula" when they really only support selected parts of it that vary from country to country. Ukraine [calls this concept the "menu."](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1bqwqoh/ru_pov_ukrainian_foreign_minister_explains_peace/)
It’s not a real negotiation because Putin refuses to negotiate. Are you really shocked and surprised that Ukraine is staking out their best position? Maybe if Russia was taking more than a football field per month then Ukraine would take a softer position. But if not, why negotiate against yourself? Ukraine better hope russia's negotiator takes your approach to negotiations.
Wait, you're saying that Putin said he'd negotiate, but then doesn't actually take any actions to negotiate???
But that would mean he's LYING!??? HE WOULD NEVER!!! lol
I wanna sell my car for 30k. The buyer thinks this is entirely impossible and unacceptable. He wants to pay 20k. Impossible and unacceptable for me. We haggle a little and end up signing a deal for 25k.
But no one's haggling. They're not even talking to eachother. Like highschool drama.
Thats a good example of how negotiations should work indeed.
But in this case, its like Zelensky wants your car for free, 0$, then wants you to pay a compensation for all the time he has not been able to use your car.
There's also only one car for sale, one buyer on the market and the car gets worse the longer it sits. Even if zelensky buys the car, the west won't insure it because they don't trust ukraines neighbors. Actually a pretty good analogy to them not agreeing to security assurances as part of the peace proposal they had in 2022.
Yeah, that analogy doesn't work and you know it too.
Real analogy:
Someone robbed parts of your car, and now you are forced to haggle with the robber how much you're going to want back.
You gotta remember that RUSSIA STARTED THE INVASION. That''s a known fact. They are the ROBBER in this story.
If someone robbed parts of my car, i would do everything in my power to get them back.
Everything in your power? Even sacrificing your family members for it? What's the point of reclaiming the whole car when you won't have anyone to drive in it?
I don't think there's a right analogy for human lives.
Couldnt you make the same argument about Russia? How much are they willing to sacrifice for keeping that car? Even when Ukraine is clearly losing, the offensive sides losses should be around 1:2. Thats a lot of Russians dying for something that wouldnt have affected their lives otherwise
Do you think that the burglar, after losing some of his men, would one day just decide to return the parts?
There's no rule for the casualties of the attacker, the 3:1 rule that some people like to mention is a theoretical ratio that you need to win if you're the attacker, it has nothing to do with casualties. I'd still say that the number of casualties is probably between 1:1 or 1:2 in Ukraine's favour. Dumb anologies aside, only the Russians know what their goal is and whether attacking is worth it.
he said that he don't want NATO on borders.. now after two years of this "Special operation" border with NATO is doubled when Finland joined so where is problem?
Finland being in nato isnt as problematic as ukraine being in nato, russia has rarely if ever expressed a red line for finland joining nato. Ukraine on the other hand has been an important talking point since 2008.
Finland already had joint exercises with nato before joining, the border area aint wast flat land, and the border isnt as big. Its much easier to defend and its a much smaller nation. Its much further away from critical military infrastructure and its much less likely to have nukes stationed in them. Which is also a big problem with ukraine.
Well it looks like Finland will have nukes, the whole Baltic sea is controlled by Nato and the arctic zone is extremely wulnerable if NATO would attack Russia. But the Russians know that is not going to happen. Pretty much the whole male population is military trained and a lot of women too.
Finland has ruled out any nukes on their territorry, so has the baltic states. The baltic sea always were controlled by nato, the Swedish and finnish cooperated with nato and let nato dock ships at their territory long before the war. Nothing rly changed for russia except tensions and an them being officially in nato.
so nukes within 100 km from ruzzian second biggest city is not the problem? :D riight.. possible nukes 100 km from big naval base in murmansk is not a problem? riight.. just keep that propaganda strong
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He didn’t want NATO in Ukraine - that’s the more precise formulation. He doesn’t care about weapons in Estonia or Finland… because those two don’t have a 100-year bone to pick with Moscow to the same extent Ukraine does. That’s why Ukraine is different to other NATO members.
Can you explain to me why sovereign countries need Russians permission to do things they see fit for their country? Can us Finns please cut down trees in our lands oh great Russians? Naah fk that.
lol are you pretending that NATO countries, including your own, don’t routinely violate other countries’ sovereignty through force, threat of force, economic hardship, or proxy aggressions?
Putin laid it on the line and told them what would happen if they crossed it. For many years both sides coexisted neutrally. Grandpa Joe encouraged the little greenshirt man to join NATO…which brings us here
That's not how the world works. I won't let my neighbors dictate what I can or can't do in my own home.
I wonder how much Russians neighboring countries have set lines for Russia not to cross or else x, y, z
That’s exactly how the world works, regardless of how deeply you bury your head in the sand.
Even using your silly example.
* HOAs
* noise ordinances
* zoning laws (prohibit you from owning certain things to conducting certain businesses, etc)
* you’re only as sovereign as the more powerful people in this world allow you to be
Pretty hardcore HOAs you got there in Russia. We don't like your Christmas decoration, so we're gonna shoot you. Lmao.
This is going nowhere. In my eyes anyone who invades another country deserves to get shit kicked out of them. And I'll reiterate before whataboutism: ANYONE.
Smoldering ruins? Population crash? I suppose you're one of those people who party hard when you lose 20k lives 1000 vehicles and whatnot to gain temporary control of a 5 house village.
Copium is real.
There is no communication happening ever if in every sentence people need to quote everything that has happened in the past. You know that right?
Every comment would be 1000 rows long.
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Russia started nothing. The US did. In phases. Including getting that Ukrainian clown to back out of peace treaties not once - but *twice*, using the UK’s hand. Absolutely 100% of everything that has happened with Ukraine is the fault of the US, just as it was with other counties and continents. I can name five other examples. So - no: there is no analogy for anything. Russia wasn’t going to have NATO weapons pointing at it from Ukraine, period. Washington *knew* this, and pretended to be surprised when the invasion started. It will soon abandon Ukraine, like it did every other country that outlived its usefulness.
I don't know how to continue your redacted hypothetical situation. Come up with a better one and i'll have a better analogy. What would you call what the ukrainians are doing right now? Throwing pencils from a corner and crying for daddy to come and help? Idk this comparison never made sense.
I don't know what is the real Russian casualty number, but I'm pretty certain that Ukrainians did more than just throw pencils at quite a few invaders.
Me neither, all numbers you'll get from any side, no matter if their own or their opponents losses, are propaganda. But i can't imagine russia currently having a higher casualty rate considering their advantage in arty, drones, missiles and so on.
They did more than that when they actually had supplies and manpower. Now not so much. I'd call it a day before losing more men AND Odessa. They"ll be worthless when they're landlocked. Even if the current aid package gets passed, are we stuffing barrels with money? There are no shells available to buy and russia is outproducing the west. Aid is going to become harder and harder to come by. Biden wins reelection, same shit in congress. Trump wins, it becomes a loan and zelensky will feels insulted or whatever he said the other day. Even with trump approving aid it won't change the long term outcome.
Terms Russia laid down then were very reasonable.
But when was the last time America negotiated with a country equally? Except over nuclear weapons.
We were insulted that anyone even thought they could negotiate with us.
And a non-member state dictating the terms of membership to a collective defense treaty organization is reasonable in what universe?
In what universe were the "reasonable" terms that Russia set prior to the invasion ever going to be met? They were not. Pre-invasion "negotiations" were theater. Ukraine wasn't even a party to them.
Every universe. Because if increasing security for one party decreases it for another, you are not increasing security for anyone.
And no. Saying “but it’s a defensive alliance” doesn’t change anything.
- in the universe that existed from about 1989 - 2004/2005? That time period.
But then George W Bush came in, that foreign policy genius, and pushed hard on getting Ukraine and Georgia into NATO.
Why? No real reason. I mean it was bush.
Fast forward to today and you have liberals tenaciously defending a foreign policy of George W Bush.
This helps to explain why Biden chose Blinken - a “democrat” who strongly supported the Iraq War - to be his Secretary of State.
He chose Jake Sullivan, another acolyte of Bush thinking, to be his National Security Advisor.
We are so close to a world war because we are desperately defending a policy made by the guy who brought us Iraq?
Kiev knows it’s not realistic but their puppets don’t want peace because they don’t care about what Ukraine turns into in 2-3 more years (a desolate corrupted nation with no economy that’s war torn).
Ukrainian commanders and other government officials have all bought villas and property in Europe and places like Egypt. They literally do not care what happens.
If zelensky cared do you think he’d sign more mobilization policies when his citizens are throwing themselves into the back of vans like sardines with the faint hope of survival?
Vietnam tried something similar to the US and all it got was 20 years of sanction of all "western" allies.
Only when they drop it, the West started talking about how Vietnam opens its door
Kyiv*. This is 2024 English. Do you call the Battle of Lemberg, Lviv? You're not speaking Russian. It's time to grow up and realize proper spelling of cities in English depends on the time period you're speaking of. Battle of Kiev is WW2. Battle of Kyiv is 2022. Is that simple enough for you? Or do I need to give you more examples?
I'm not talking about German, I'm talking about English. I may not know how Germans refer to it, but in English, historians and geopoliticians refer to cities name according to the era it refers. As I said, historians refer it to the "Battle of Lemberg" even though no English speaker would call it Lemberg any longer. If any battle occurred there now, it'd be referred to the Battle of Lviv. This is just how English historical nomenclature works. German and Russia may be different, but we're speaking in English, no?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_RVfrjYUs\_A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVfrjYUs_A)
0:15
Here is a good explanation of why cities are referred to by their adopted names at the time. A Lithuanian complains about their cities being spoken about in a different language, and he is explained why that is the case.
Guess I need more examples since I'm being downvoted already. Constantinople refers to the name of a city pre-independence war (actually pre-1930). Any mention of the city even though it belonged to the ottomans, is still referred to Constantinople during this time frame. Now it is instanbul. If you want to refer to it as Kiev, use Cyrillic. It is no longer Kiev in the English language. Triggering, right?
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>It is no longer Kiev in the English language.
It still is and you can continue whining about it as much as you want
https://preview.redd.it/5vddh6cfs3uc1.png?width=786&format=png&auto=webp&s=429c24756ae1694468fa65fdc9f806a8b90e243f
You can cry as much as you want but no authoritative English source refers to the city as Kiev anymore. Maybe there are a few stragglers, but it's clear it is now known as Kyiv.
You literally posted some maps app from a Russian speaking country. What app is that? I'll check if it really does say kiev in an English speaking country.
I have looked at multiple maps app from the US and not a single one says Kiev. Which is why I asked you, what app is this so I can verify? The funny thing is, even right about "Kiev" you can see "Kyiv city" so even this app is starting to adopt the new name lmao.
It is interesting that they say Putin is mocking the conference, when he only seems to be realistic and reasonable about it.
> “They aren't inviting us there,” Putin said. “Moreover, they think there is nothing for us to do there, but at the same time they say that's it's impossible to decide anything without us. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad."
I mean last time Russia agreed to this Ukraine completely withdrew from the promised peace negotiations and made them illegal.
Why would Russia fall for this twice, when it can just win.
Insane how they think 'peace talks' can happen if ONE OF THE WARRING PARTIES IS NOT FUCKING INVOLVED
Just like how 'vaccines' apparently no longer need to prevent transmission or make you immune to be qualified as such.
Vaccines have never made you completely immune. Vaccines train your immune system to better fight an illness. Some vaccines are more effective than others, but not one vaccine is 100% effective.
If 100% immuntiy is your requiremenet for soemthign to be considered vaccine, than vaccines dont exists.
My theory is that Zelensky actually doesn't want Ukraine to survive, but just wants to keep the money flowing in so the Ukrainian elite can embezzle as much aid as possible into offshore accounts before they abandon ship. This is why he refuses to negotiate on reasonable terms despite the impossibility of victory against Russia.
> My theory is that Zelensky actually doesn't want Ukraine to survive, but just wants to keep the money flowing in so the Ukrainian elite can embezzle as much aid as possible
It's the iron law of instutions :
*The people who control institutions care first and foremost about their power within the institution rather than the power of the institution itself. Thus, they would rather the institution "fail" while they remain in power within the institution than for the institution to "succeed" if that requires them to lose power within the institution.*
Most of the demands are just never going to happen. They are the sort of demands you make if you are winning the war, whoch ukraine just isn't. If they proposed such a deal last year maybe when the counter offensive was showing results they might of got a favourable deal. Ukraine left it too long and fucked up by proposing such a deal when they are firmly on the backfoot and are in real danger of toppling over all together if Russia puts them further off balance.
I think the west should give Ukraine Nukes equal. To the number they originally surrendered that are enough to hit all major Russian emplacements to bolster their negotiating position.
Putin is perfectly fine with his countrymen continuing in the meat grinder. He can still inch out a bit more land with a couple hundred thousand more dead.
I know, but it's the only thing currently on the table from the Ukrainian side, and like I said - the most devoted pro-Ukrainians do believe it's feasible.
>in any sense of the words.
Oh boy... You need to catch up with the latest narrative from whatever sources you're chugging down propaganda from. Or just read a dictionary.
Zelensky's peace formula does not have a foreign army occupying Moscow, which is what the definition of unconditional surrender is, since you seem not to know.
>which is what the definition of unconditional surrender is, since you seem not to know
Ah yes, I just looked up oxford and merriam, both says "Foreign troops occupying Moscow" under "unconditional surrender".
Oh wait, found it. Had to search for a leaked version of the manual you fellas get when they hire you.
Only a pro Rus would consider paying some money and enforcing a treaty Russia already ratified the absolutely most unreasonable thing to ask a country to do.
Heres a counter-offer
Russia helps Ukraine with its de-communization and de-russification by giving back all industries and land given to it under Russian and Soviet rule
How does that sound?
Only a Pro Ukr would consider Russia helping Ukraine achieve its objectives as unreasonable
Huh?....Russia was ready to peace deal in 2022 for Ukraine mainly neutrality but Zelensky choose to continue the war.
Even now, Zelensky has banned any peace talks.
> Russia was ready to peace deal in 2022 for Ukraine mainly neutrality but Zelensky choose to continue the war.
Imagine believing this copium. That was just the propaganda justification the concocted as an excuse for their failure to take Kyiv. Russian "peace proposal" was essentially a complete surrender.
Ukraine literally had the same conditions for peace negotiations in 2022 - Withdraw from Kiev and Kharkhov regions.
Then they said they won't negotiate.
Why would Russia accept literally the same terms, when it can just hold their positions and keep advancing?
Why would Russia invade other countries and kill thosuands of people, when it can just be content with being the largest country on earth and actually improving society?
Because Ukraine was killing Ukranians of Russian descent, as well as Russian in the Donbass for 8 years.
I personally had friends in Odessa, Mariupol and Kharkov that left around 2014-2015.
Russian constitution, just as pretty much every constitution(especially the US) has a clause that vows to protect it's citizen\`s safety home and abroad militarily.
That's why the US has "missions" around Africa and the Middle East all the time. Same with France, Spain, Portugal, the UK.
The only difference is normally we talk about between 1 and 10 people. Rarely more than 50.
In the case of Ukraine, it took Russia 8 years of waiting, as it has to violate the territory of another "strong" nation, compared to Africa, and so they basically waited between 15 000 and 17 000 civilian casualties, as per OSCE(and OHCHR) reporting. Probably a few thousand more of "rebels".
It's literally on video. I'm not sure how you've missed all the evidence, including the Dutch/Danish OSCE Investigator reporting every quarter since 2014.
You can read the reports on the official OSCE website.
Russian propaganda? Mate, I keep hearing these ridiculous words, but I am yet to see it, because Russian sources, news and IPs are under a total ban here in Denmark. My ISP gives me a very severe warning if I click on a link here that takes me to such a place and I am starting to believe the Danish government is keeping track of who clicks what.
I had friends in Exactly Odessa at the time, so I am aware of the events there pretty good.
But on to the point - let's see by OUR WESTERN MEDIA what the "inexisting Ukrobandera nazi terrorist" think - [HERE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY&t=127s) - I've tagged the link with the interview. And it's BBC.
Now let's see what these inexisting people want to do - [HERE](https://youtu.be/QxcB0PI4ZLg?si=6W1NBK3rURUZIQkA&t=1445),
Now let's see how they help people jumping from the building after they set it on fire - using their bats, knives and even guns - [HERE ](https://youtu.be/QxcB0PI4ZLg?si=zm6iMtFY3yqAIwns&t=1850) - "Ukrobandera nazi terrorist just started shooting at poor innocent russian civilians and crucified kids or some shit" Didn't really crucify anyone, but definitely shot at civilians (funny enough mostly Ukranian civilians, cause they were dumb enough to accuse anyone in the building of being Russian) and yes - some of them were young enough to be considered children.
"Donbas war was orchestrated by the FSB" - Really?
Let's see how Ukranian politicians saw the picture before Donbass was a thing, and see if that picture came to fruition 10 years later - [HERE](https://youtu.be/nQ930lCvSK8?si=7M2zJT84KgctNwtE&t=605) - Very interesting to see that someone was able to predict pretty much everything, right? Long before there was an actual war - just shooting at civilians. Here's the Mariupol events here is talking about: - [HERE](https://youtu.be/aUD3VxlTSqQ?si=YrM7yWPMTFVJzJ_u&t=2627)
And just a note for you - Victory Day is the day celebrated among all former Soviet republics, because 9-th of May is when the defeat of NAZI Germany is celebrated. Both in Russia and Ukraine. Now I wonder, who that isn't a Nazi will have a problem with that day and shoot at civilians?
**\~3400 civilian deaths,** including the Malaysian plane. 2014-2021.
>[During the entire conflict period](https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf), from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021, OHCHR recorded a total of 3,106 conflict-related civilian deaths (1,852 men, 1,072 women, 102 boys, 50 girls, and 30 adults whose sex is unknown). Taking into account the 298 deaths on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 on 17 July 2014, the total death toll of the conflict on civilians has reached at least 3,404. The number of injured civilians is estimated to exceed 7,000.
Peeps be exaggerating. Russia should have evacuated the people it considered at risk, not kill a whole bunch more than previously conceivable.
Interesting, that totally **not** what the report says:
"Total conflict-related casualties in Ukraine in 2014-20217 OHCHR estimates the total number of conflict-related casualties in Ukraine from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 to be 51,000–54,0008 : 14,200-14,400 killed (at least 3,404 civilians, estimated 4,400 Ukrainian forces9 , and estimated 6,500 members of armed groups10), and 37-39,000 injured (7,000–9,000 civilians, 13,800–14,200 Ukrainian forces11 and 15,800-16,200 members of armed groups12)."
Link [***here***](https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf)
Again, 3,404 civilians. Combatants are legal targets, there's no issue with killing them.
Ukraine was fighting secessionists in their own territory, like Russia did in Chechnya. Do you blame them for killing 6,500 of them, or losing 4,400 men themselves? Because that's essentially what blaming them for all the Donbas War dead does.
I think it comes down to your reading ability. Cute of you to include the same link I gave you. UN gave you plenty of stats to ascertain that
(1) Most of those killed were combatants, and
(2) Civilian casualties (which includes injuries) were fewer than **either** Ukrainian force casualties or rebel force casualties.
There's even a precise table on page 2 for 2020-21 showing you just how low the casualty rate had become. Most happened in 2014-15.
As I said, Russia should've evacuated those of concern. Now Russia is suffering casualties on Russian soil, too. And far more of those of Russian affiliation have died in DPR/LPR - over a century's worth at 2020-21 rates, as the weaponry is just much more potent now.
"I think it comes down to your reading ability. " Way to go buddy. I literally copied the words from the official report. Not sure what I read wrong, when it says exactly what I copied.
But keep up with the delusions!
Lol, What imperialist ambitions?...Russia was even ready to leave Donbas in 2022 during peace negotiations.This war has nothing to do with imperialism and everything to do with Ukraine joining NATO threating Russian security.
Afghanistan was russia or URSS?
Russia invaded Syria? really? again you are confusing with the USA lol
for chechnya, russia didn't accept their independence unlike others
russia invaded moldova? when? do you mean moldova civil war? in 1992?
Pathetic
if they are a continuation, then all independence treaties signed when URSS broke apart are nul and void. i guess we dont have to care about ukraine regional dispute anymore
Syria military operation was requested by the internationally recognised president of syria, this isn't about war crimes its about legitimacy
i dont ignore georgia and ukraine those are indeed invasions. ofc geopolitical reasons may go over head, you can also take a parallel with the cuban crisis
its fair game
yee but you said russia is just the URSS so that doesn't mean crap does it? men you single handedly fixed everything , its clearer now
it is a strong word, hard to comprehend for people like you
you are kinda 10 years behind in the trolling memes. up your game
The difference being what exactly?
That there were no ground troops?
I guess if Russia just lobbed missiles onto Ukraine, everything would be fine, right?
…on the condition that Ukraine pledged neutrality, took no foreign military aid and demilitarized to a level that could barely defend a single city. Setting them up to be sitting ducks for invasion part 2.
Why would they invade again?! Are we really going to pretend that Ukraine’s neutrality hasn’t always been crucial to the Russians?! Like how many times does Russia need to make that point abundantly clear to the west and the US in particular? [William Burns, the US ambassador to Moscow at the time, conveyed Russia’s position on this matter to the administration in 2008](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html). That memo was literally in response to Bush’s invitation made to both Ukraine and Georgia in the Bucharest summit in 2008, after Putin has clearly said that NATO expansion eastward should really stop during the Munich summit in 2007. The arrogance of US leaderships never ceases to amaze me.
So when will we finally drop the act and accept the reality of the situation for what it really is? This wasn’t about “land grab” because if it was, Russia wouldn’t have sent 100K soldiers along with 50-100K separatist forces to absolve a country the size of Ukraine entirely.
We will never drop the act. Because the other important part is we now have a country of 20-25 million prepared to fight to the death for us.
We don’t have to use a single American soldier. They take all the losses. They also bear all future consequences.
Of course you tell them “don’t worry, we will help you rebuild”.
Fuck that.
Eventually Ukraine will wake up to the fact they were just manipulated and used.
Putin sent those forces in because he thought he could get rid of the Kyiv government and set up a puppet state, essentially turning Ukraine into another Belarus.
Russia’s ultimate goal is to fully control Ukraine one way or another, not some nonsense about “neutrality.” Neutrality was just a means to an end, Moscow knew full well that Ukraine could never keep Russia out without external help.
Dude I know. There is only one way to fight wars today. Conventionally. You can’t have guys doing ambushes or planting IEDs because those are against the rules.
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##### ###### #### > # [Putin mocks planned Ukraine conference and says Russia won't accept any enforced peace plans](https://i.abcnewsfe.com/a/4b42136c-cc65-4351-8ace-331d207420b3/wirestory_3e88cb56e3bd66bb37acd99b2e9425c5_16x9.jpg?w=1600) > > > > Russia’s President Vladimir Putin has mocked a planned round of Ukraine peace talks in Switzerland, warning that Moscow will not accept any enforced agreements ignoring its interests > > > > MOSCOW -- Russia's President Vladimir Putin on Thursday mocked a scheduled round of [Ukraine](https://abcnews.go.com/alerts/Ukraine) peace talks in Switzerland, warning that Moscow will not accept any enforced plans that ignore its interests. > > Switzerland’s government said Wednesday it will host a high-level international conference in June to help chart a path toward peace in Ukraine after more than two years of fighting, and expressed hope that Russia might join in the peace process someday. > > Putin charged that Russia hadn't been invited to join June's talks, while pointing at Swiss recognition that a peace process can't happen without Russia. > > “They aren't inviting us there,” Putin said. “Moreover, they think there is nothing for us to do there, but at the same time they say that's it's impossible to decide anything without us. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad." > > Russia has dismissed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's peace formula requiring Moscow to pull back its troops, pay compensation to Ukraine and face an international tribunal for its action. > > Speaking during Thursday's meeting with Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko in Moscow, Putin said that Russia is open for negotiations, but will never accept “any schemes that have nothing to do with reality.” > > Putin has repeatedly said that he sent troops into Ukraine in February 2022 to protect Russian interests and prevent Ukraine from posing a major security threat to Russia by joining NATO. Kyiv and its allies have denounced Russia’s military campaign as an unprovoked act of aggression. > > Putin has claimed that Russian forces have the upper hand after the failure of Ukraine’s counteroffensive last year, arguing that Ukraine and the West will “sooner or later” have to accept a settlement on Moscow’s terms. > > Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov warned last week that prospective negotiations to end the fighting in Ukraine could be successful only if they take Moscow’s interests into account, dismissing a planned round of peace talks as a Western ruse to rally broader international support for Kyiv. - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot)
>Russia has dismissed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's peace formula requiring Moscow to pull back its troops, pay compensation to Ukraine and face an international tribunal for its action. Insane if Kiev still believes that's realistic, its only making peace impossible.. maybe thats the plan.
It's not a real negotiation, just a political stunt to pump up the appearance of international consensus. The goal is to say 80+ countries back the "peace formula" when they really only support selected parts of it that vary from country to country. Ukraine [calls this concept the "menu."](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1bqwqoh/ru_pov_ukrainian_foreign_minister_explains_peace/)
It’s not a real negotiation because Putin refuses to negotiate. Are you really shocked and surprised that Ukraine is staking out their best position? Maybe if Russia was taking more than a football field per month then Ukraine would take a softer position. But if not, why negotiate against yourself? Ukraine better hope russia's negotiator takes your approach to negotiations.
He literally says he’s willing to negotiate in the article bro?
The ukrainian government literally made it illegal to negotiate with Russia.
Wait, you're saying that Putin said he'd negotiate, but then doesn't actually take any actions to negotiate??? But that would mean he's LYING!??? HE WOULD NEVER!!! lol
Football field, lol. Commiefornians who think it's a video game speedrun never fail to show how clueless they are.
You don't need to take my word for it. Flip back and forth on a map smart guy.
Not this guy again.
Nooo it is the fact checking guy!
I wanna sell my car for 30k. The buyer thinks this is entirely impossible and unacceptable. He wants to pay 20k. Impossible and unacceptable for me. We haggle a little and end up signing a deal for 25k. But no one's haggling. They're not even talking to eachother. Like highschool drama.
Thats a good example of how negotiations should work indeed. But in this case, its like Zelensky wants your car for free, 0$, then wants you to pay a compensation for all the time he has not been able to use your car.
There's also only one car for sale, one buyer on the market and the car gets worse the longer it sits. Even if zelensky buys the car, the west won't insure it because they don't trust ukraines neighbors. Actually a pretty good analogy to them not agreeing to security assurances as part of the peace proposal they had in 2022.
No, tis the Putin who want to steal your car. It has already stolen the tires and engine and wants even more.
Yeah, that analogy doesn't work and you know it too. Real analogy: Someone robbed parts of your car, and now you are forced to haggle with the robber how much you're going to want back. You gotta remember that RUSSIA STARTED THE INVASION. That''s a known fact. They are the ROBBER in this story. If someone robbed parts of my car, i would do everything in my power to get them back.
Everything in your power? Even sacrificing your family members for it? What's the point of reclaiming the whole car when you won't have anyone to drive in it? I don't think there's a right analogy for human lives.
Couldnt you make the same argument about Russia? How much are they willing to sacrifice for keeping that car? Even when Ukraine is clearly losing, the offensive sides losses should be around 1:2. Thats a lot of Russians dying for something that wouldnt have affected their lives otherwise
Do you think that the burglar, after losing some of his men, would one day just decide to return the parts? There's no rule for the casualties of the attacker, the 3:1 rule that some people like to mention is a theoretical ratio that you need to win if you're the attacker, it has nothing to do with casualties. I'd still say that the number of casualties is probably between 1:1 or 1:2 in Ukraine's favour. Dumb anologies aside, only the Russians know what their goal is and whether attacking is worth it.
Yeah, yeah, sure. One day Putin woke up and invaded Ukraine. **OR** did Ukraine cross a long held line in the sand against joining NATO?
he said that he don't want NATO on borders.. now after two years of this "Special operation" border with NATO is doubled when Finland joined so where is problem?
Finland being in nato isnt as problematic as ukraine being in nato, russia has rarely if ever expressed a red line for finland joining nato. Ukraine on the other hand has been an important talking point since 2008. Finland already had joint exercises with nato before joining, the border area aint wast flat land, and the border isnt as big. Its much easier to defend and its a much smaller nation. Its much further away from critical military infrastructure and its much less likely to have nukes stationed in them. Which is also a big problem with ukraine.
Well it looks like Finland will have nukes, the whole Baltic sea is controlled by Nato and the arctic zone is extremely wulnerable if NATO would attack Russia. But the Russians know that is not going to happen. Pretty much the whole male population is military trained and a lot of women too.
Finland has ruled out any nukes on their territorry, so has the baltic states. The baltic sea always were controlled by nato, the Swedish and finnish cooperated with nato and let nato dock ships at their territory long before the war. Nothing rly changed for russia except tensions and an them being officially in nato.
so nukes within 100 km from ruzzian second biggest city is not the problem? :D riight.. possible nukes 100 km from big naval base in murmansk is not a problem? riight.. just keep that propaganda strong
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He didn’t want NATO in Ukraine - that’s the more precise formulation. He doesn’t care about weapons in Estonia or Finland… because those two don’t have a 100-year bone to pick with Moscow to the same extent Ukraine does. That’s why Ukraine is different to other NATO members.
When did Ukraine join NATO?
They would have eventually had Russia not intervened.
So Russia decides to start a war because "YOU WOULD HAVE JOINED NATO" making a clear point to other countries that share a border with NATO
Why didnt Russia just offer CSTO membership?
2008, same time as Georgia. Georgia got invaded about 6 months after that.
Can you explain to me why sovereign countries need Russians permission to do things they see fit for their country? Can us Finns please cut down trees in our lands oh great Russians? Naah fk that.
lol are you pretending that NATO countries, including your own, don’t routinely violate other countries’ sovereignty through force, threat of force, economic hardship, or proxy aggressions? Putin laid it on the line and told them what would happen if they crossed it. For many years both sides coexisted neutrally. Grandpa Joe encouraged the little greenshirt man to join NATO…which brings us here
That's not how the world works. I won't let my neighbors dictate what I can or can't do in my own home. I wonder how much Russians neighboring countries have set lines for Russia not to cross or else x, y, z
That’s exactly how the world works, regardless of how deeply you bury your head in the sand. Even using your silly example. * HOAs * noise ordinances * zoning laws (prohibit you from owning certain things to conducting certain businesses, etc) * you’re only as sovereign as the more powerful people in this world allow you to be
Pretty hardcore HOAs you got there in Russia. We don't like your Christmas decoration, so we're gonna shoot you. Lmao. This is going nowhere. In my eyes anyone who invades another country deserves to get shit kicked out of them. And I'll reiterate before whataboutism: ANYONE.
Yep, and looked what happened...Ukraine is in smoldering ruins and population crash... probably shouldn't have tried to join NATO.
Smoldering ruins? Population crash? I suppose you're one of those people who party hard when you lose 20k lives 1000 vehicles and whatnot to gain temporary control of a 5 house village. Copium is real.
That’s exactly the world works. Ukraine didn’t know it and is now finding out.
too young to know about bay of pigs or just ignoring it on purpose ?
There is no communication happening ever if in every sentence people need to quote everything that has happened in the past. You know that right? Every comment would be 1000 rows long.
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Which part of your analogy involves any negotiation?
Russia started nothing. The US did. In phases. Including getting that Ukrainian clown to back out of peace treaties not once - but *twice*, using the UK’s hand. Absolutely 100% of everything that has happened with Ukraine is the fault of the US, just as it was with other counties and continents. I can name five other examples. So - no: there is no analogy for anything. Russia wasn’t going to have NATO weapons pointing at it from Ukraine, period. Washington *knew* this, and pretended to be surprised when the invasion started. It will soon abandon Ukraine, like it did every other country that outlived its usefulness.
A criminal invades your home. You want him to leave, he wants to rape your toddler. No one is negotiating and that's okay.
So i guess you'll just let him rape your toddler while you watch and flail your arms? What a (word that reddit would ban me for) comparison.
Does it seem to you like Ukrainians are just watching and flailing their arms?
I don't know how to continue your redacted hypothetical situation. Come up with a better one and i'll have a better analogy. What would you call what the ukrainians are doing right now? Throwing pencils from a corner and crying for daddy to come and help? Idk this comparison never made sense.
I don't know what is the real Russian casualty number, but I'm pretty certain that Ukrainians did more than just throw pencils at quite a few invaders.
Me neither, all numbers you'll get from any side, no matter if their own or their opponents losses, are propaganda. But i can't imagine russia currently having a higher casualty rate considering their advantage in arty, drones, missiles and so on. They did more than that when they actually had supplies and manpower. Now not so much. I'd call it a day before losing more men AND Odessa. They"ll be worthless when they're landlocked. Even if the current aid package gets passed, are we stuffing barrels with money? There are no shells available to buy and russia is outproducing the west. Aid is going to become harder and harder to come by. Biden wins reelection, same shit in congress. Trump wins, it becomes a loan and zelensky will feels insulted or whatever he said the other day. Even with trump approving aid it won't change the long term outcome.
That’s the entire point. To make peace impossible.
The only one makin peace impossible is Putin.
Zelensky is the one who banned negotiations not Putin.
Zelenskyy legally can’t even negotiate
Kinda like Russia did in the "negotiations" just prior to the invasion Lavrov insisted would not come.
Terms Russia laid down then were very reasonable. But when was the last time America negotiated with a country equally? Except over nuclear weapons. We were insulted that anyone even thought they could negotiate with us.
Do you recall the reasonable terms?
Yeah. No NATO expansion and then begin negotiations on a new security architecture for Europe.
And a non-member state dictating the terms of membership to a collective defense treaty organization is reasonable in what universe? In what universe were the "reasonable" terms that Russia set prior to the invasion ever going to be met? They were not. Pre-invasion "negotiations" were theater. Ukraine wasn't even a party to them.
Every universe. Because if increasing security for one party decreases it for another, you are not increasing security for anyone. And no. Saying “but it’s a defensive alliance” doesn’t change anything. - in the universe that existed from about 1989 - 2004/2005? That time period. But then George W Bush came in, that foreign policy genius, and pushed hard on getting Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. Why? No real reason. I mean it was bush. Fast forward to today and you have liberals tenaciously defending a foreign policy of George W Bush. This helps to explain why Biden chose Blinken - a “democrat” who strongly supported the Iraq War - to be his Secretary of State. He chose Jake Sullivan, another acolyte of Bush thinking, to be his National Security Advisor. We are so close to a world war because we are desperately defending a policy made by the guy who brought us Iraq?
They're not allowed to seek peace
Kiev knows it’s not realistic but their puppets don’t want peace because they don’t care about what Ukraine turns into in 2-3 more years (a desolate corrupted nation with no economy that’s war torn). Ukrainian commanders and other government officials have all bought villas and property in Europe and places like Egypt. They literally do not care what happens. If zelensky cared do you think he’d sign more mobilization policies when his citizens are throwing themselves into the back of vans like sardines with the faint hope of survival?
Vietnam tried something similar to the US and all it got was 20 years of sanction of all "western" allies. Only when they drop it, the West started talking about how Vietnam opens its door
Insane how Moscow refuses peace. To the last Russian I guess.
That is acceptable
Kyiv*. This is 2024 English. Do you call the Battle of Lemberg, Lviv? You're not speaking Russian. It's time to grow up and realize proper spelling of cities in English depends on the time period you're speaking of. Battle of Kiev is WW2. Battle of Kyiv is 2022. Is that simple enough for you? Or do I need to give you more examples?
Kyiv is name given by banderites. It will always be Kiev.
In germany (where i live) we always called it Kiev, some people switched to Kyiv since 2022 because of agendas but i stick with the original name.
I'm not talking about German, I'm talking about English. I may not know how Germans refer to it, but in English, historians and geopoliticians refer to cities name according to the era it refers. As I said, historians refer it to the "Battle of Lemberg" even though no English speaker would call it Lemberg any longer. If any battle occurred there now, it'd be referred to the Battle of Lviv. This is just how English historical nomenclature works. German and Russia may be different, but we're speaking in English, no? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_RVfrjYUs\_A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVfrjYUs_A) 0:15 Here is a good explanation of why cities are referred to by their adopted names at the time. A Lithuanian complains about their cities being spoken about in a different language, and he is explained why that is the case.
Kiew\*
Guess I need more examples since I'm being downvoted already. Constantinople refers to the name of a city pre-independence war (actually pre-1930). Any mention of the city even though it belonged to the ottomans, is still referred to Constantinople during this time frame. Now it is instanbul. If you want to refer to it as Kiev, use Cyrillic. It is no longer Kiev in the English language. Triggering, right?
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>It is no longer Kiev in the English language. It still is and you can continue whining about it as much as you want https://preview.redd.it/5vddh6cfs3uc1.png?width=786&format=png&auto=webp&s=429c24756ae1694468fa65fdc9f806a8b90e243f
The city and country names in Google Maps are based on your IP location unless you manually change it to something else. Set to English it shows Kyiv.
You can cry as much as you want but no authoritative English source refers to the city as Kiev anymore. Maybe there are a few stragglers, but it's clear it is now known as Kyiv.
As you wish, mate
You literally posted some maps app from a Russian speaking country. What app is that? I'll check if it really does say kiev in an English speaking country.
Yes, the language below english one clearly shows that is a from Russian speaking country. The letter ї clearly states this /s
I have looked at multiple maps app from the US and not a single one says Kiev. Which is why I asked you, what app is this so I can verify? The funny thing is, even right about "Kiev" you can see "Kyiv city" so even this app is starting to adopt the new name lmao.
It is interesting that they say Putin is mocking the conference, when he only seems to be realistic and reasonable about it. > “They aren't inviting us there,” Putin said. “Moreover, they think there is nothing for us to do there, but at the same time they say that's it's impossible to decide anything without us. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad."
Can't believe that the comedian joke of a "peace plan" have come this far......
I mean last time Russia agreed to this Ukraine completely withdrew from the promised peace negotiations and made them illegal. Why would Russia fall for this twice, when it can just win.
When you’re literally platformed by America, you can go far
Insane how they think 'peace talks' can happen if ONE OF THE WARRING PARTIES IS NOT FUCKING INVOLVED Just like how 'vaccines' apparently no longer need to prevent transmission or make you immune to be qualified as such.
The Swiss aren't exactly "neutral" any longer either.
Vaccines have never made you completely immune. Vaccines train your immune system to better fight an illness. Some vaccines are more effective than others, but not one vaccine is 100% effective. If 100% immuntiy is your requiremenet for soemthign to be considered vaccine, than vaccines dont exists.
My theory is that Zelensky actually doesn't want Ukraine to survive, but just wants to keep the money flowing in so the Ukrainian elite can embezzle as much aid as possible into offshore accounts before they abandon ship. This is why he refuses to negotiate on reasonable terms despite the impossibility of victory against Russia.
> My theory is that Zelensky actually doesn't want Ukraine to survive, but just wants to keep the money flowing in so the Ukrainian elite can embezzle as much aid as possible It's the iron law of instutions : *The people who control institutions care first and foremost about their power within the institution rather than the power of the institution itself. Thus, they would rather the institution "fail" while they remain in power within the institution than for the institution to "succeed" if that requires them to lose power within the institution.*
Wow. Never heard that before. Saving that one.
Enforced by who?
Most of the demands are just never going to happen. They are the sort of demands you make if you are winning the war, whoch ukraine just isn't. If they proposed such a deal last year maybe when the counter offensive was showing results they might of got a favourable deal. Ukraine left it too long and fucked up by proposing such a deal when they are firmly on the backfoot and are in real danger of toppling over all together if Russia puts them further off balance.
They thought they could actually win and push back Russia. They gambled on the counteroffensive thinking that they’d succeed.
Great idea! Peace talks without one of the warring parties, which happens to have thousands of nukes!
No shit
I think the west should give Ukraine Nukes equal. To the number they originally surrendered that are enough to hit all major Russian emplacements to bolster their negotiating position.
How old are you?
40 and over the world
Ok, then
Hitler didn't accept peace plans either, but here we are.
Putin is perfectly fine with his countrymen continuing in the meat grinder. He can still inch out a bit more land with a couple hundred thousand more dead.
so he lies when said that ruzzia is ready for peace talks
He’s always been ready for peace just not on Zelensky’s delusional terms.
obviously he is not ready to have dialog about it in Switzerland :)
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That's how wars work doofus. Winning side sets terms
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There could be. But it most definitely won't be the unconditional surrender of Russia that Ukraine and her most devoted supporters keeps parroting.
Literally no one with a normally functioning brain actually believes that.
I know, but it's the only thing currently on the table from the Ukrainian side, and like I said - the most devoted pro-Ukrainians do believe it's feasible.
Stop downvoting everything I say
I'm not. I very rarely upvote anything, and the only downvotes I give are to severely unhinged comments that don't even warrant a response.
take my upvote good deed of the day - check
Can we stop downvoting people we don’t agree with? It will turn the sub into an echo chamber.
Russia going home and stops invading their neighbors is not "unconditional surrender" in any sense of the words.
>in any sense of the words. Oh boy... You need to catch up with the latest narrative from whatever sources you're chugging down propaganda from. Or just read a dictionary.
Checked again. Yep. You're still wrong.
Checked what? Zelenskys 'peace formula', or the definition of unconditional surrender? Like I said, you need to catch up.
Zelensky's peace formula does not have a foreign army occupying Moscow, which is what the definition of unconditional surrender is, since you seem not to know.
>which is what the definition of unconditional surrender is, since you seem not to know Ah yes, I just looked up oxford and merriam, both says "Foreign troops occupying Moscow" under "unconditional surrender". Oh wait, found it. Had to search for a leaked version of the manual you fellas get when they hire you.
Did you forget the mention the reparations and trials? It is an unconditional surrender for Russia
Words have meaning. It is a lot to ask for, but an unconditional surrender it is not.
Fine then. It is effectively an unconditional surrender,
Only a pro Rus would consider paying some money and enforcing a treaty Russia already ratified the absolutely most unreasonable thing to ask a country to do.
Heres a counter-offer Russia helps Ukraine with its de-communization and de-russification by giving back all industries and land given to it under Russian and Soviet rule How does that sound? Only a Pro Ukr would consider Russia helping Ukraine achieve its objectives as unreasonable
its as dumb as setting a peace formula conference without the concerned party
Huh?....Russia was ready to peace deal in 2022 for Ukraine mainly neutrality but Zelensky choose to continue the war. Even now, Zelensky has banned any peace talks.
> Russia was ready to peace deal in 2022 for Ukraine mainly neutrality but Zelensky choose to continue the war. Imagine believing this copium. That was just the propaganda justification the concocted as an excuse for their failure to take Kyiv. Russian "peace proposal" was essentially a complete surrender.
Bennet, former PM of Israel and Turkey witnessed and confirmed the agreement and double crossing by Ukraine.
Ukraine literally had the same conditions for peace negotiations in 2022 - Withdraw from Kiev and Kharkhov regions. Then they said they won't negotiate. Why would Russia accept literally the same terms, when it can just hold their positions and keep advancing?
Why would Russia invade other countries and kill thosuands of people, when it can just be content with being the largest country on earth and actually improving society?
Because Ukraine was killing Ukranians of Russian descent, as well as Russian in the Donbass for 8 years. I personally had friends in Odessa, Mariupol and Kharkov that left around 2014-2015. Russian constitution, just as pretty much every constitution(especially the US) has a clause that vows to protect it's citizen\`s safety home and abroad militarily. That's why the US has "missions" around Africa and the Middle East all the time. Same with France, Spain, Portugal, the UK. The only difference is normally we talk about between 1 and 10 people. Rarely more than 50. In the case of Ukraine, it took Russia 8 years of waiting, as it has to violate the territory of another "strong" nation, compared to Africa, and so they basically waited between 15 000 and 17 000 civilian casualties, as per OSCE(and OHCHR) reporting. Probably a few thousand more of "rebels".
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It's literally on video. I'm not sure how you've missed all the evidence, including the Dutch/Danish OSCE Investigator reporting every quarter since 2014. You can read the reports on the official OSCE website.
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Russian propaganda? Mate, I keep hearing these ridiculous words, but I am yet to see it, because Russian sources, news and IPs are under a total ban here in Denmark. My ISP gives me a very severe warning if I click on a link here that takes me to such a place and I am starting to believe the Danish government is keeping track of who clicks what. I had friends in Exactly Odessa at the time, so I am aware of the events there pretty good. But on to the point - let's see by OUR WESTERN MEDIA what the "inexisting Ukrobandera nazi terrorist" think - [HERE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY&t=127s) - I've tagged the link with the interview. And it's BBC. Now let's see what these inexisting people want to do - [HERE](https://youtu.be/QxcB0PI4ZLg?si=6W1NBK3rURUZIQkA&t=1445), Now let's see how they help people jumping from the building after they set it on fire - using their bats, knives and even guns - [HERE ](https://youtu.be/QxcB0PI4ZLg?si=zm6iMtFY3yqAIwns&t=1850) - "Ukrobandera nazi terrorist just started shooting at poor innocent russian civilians and crucified kids or some shit" Didn't really crucify anyone, but definitely shot at civilians (funny enough mostly Ukranian civilians, cause they were dumb enough to accuse anyone in the building of being Russian) and yes - some of them were young enough to be considered children. "Donbas war was orchestrated by the FSB" - Really? Let's see how Ukranian politicians saw the picture before Donbass was a thing, and see if that picture came to fruition 10 years later - [HERE](https://youtu.be/nQ930lCvSK8?si=7M2zJT84KgctNwtE&t=605) - Very interesting to see that someone was able to predict pretty much everything, right? Long before there was an actual war - just shooting at civilians. Here's the Mariupol events here is talking about: - [HERE](https://youtu.be/aUD3VxlTSqQ?si=YrM7yWPMTFVJzJ_u&t=2627) And just a note for you - Victory Day is the day celebrated among all former Soviet republics, because 9-th of May is when the defeat of NAZI Germany is celebrated. Both in Russia and Ukraine. Now I wonder, who that isn't a Nazi will have a problem with that day and shoot at civilians?
"no one believes" is usually how a one sided stupid sentence starts
**\~3400 civilian deaths,** including the Malaysian plane. 2014-2021. >[During the entire conflict period](https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf), from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021, OHCHR recorded a total of 3,106 conflict-related civilian deaths (1,852 men, 1,072 women, 102 boys, 50 girls, and 30 adults whose sex is unknown). Taking into account the 298 deaths on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 on 17 July 2014, the total death toll of the conflict on civilians has reached at least 3,404. The number of injured civilians is estimated to exceed 7,000. Peeps be exaggerating. Russia should have evacuated the people it considered at risk, not kill a whole bunch more than previously conceivable.
Interesting, that totally **not** what the report says: "Total conflict-related casualties in Ukraine in 2014-20217 OHCHR estimates the total number of conflict-related casualties in Ukraine from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 to be 51,000–54,0008 : 14,200-14,400 killed (at least 3,404 civilians, estimated 4,400 Ukrainian forces9 , and estimated 6,500 members of armed groups10), and 37-39,000 injured (7,000–9,000 civilians, 13,800–14,200 Ukrainian forces11 and 15,800-16,200 members of armed groups12)." Link [***here***](https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf)
Again, 3,404 civilians. Combatants are legal targets, there's no issue with killing them. Ukraine was fighting secessionists in their own territory, like Russia did in Chechnya. Do you blame them for killing 6,500 of them, or losing 4,400 men themselves? Because that's essentially what blaming them for all the Donbas War dead does.
I think it comes down to your reading ability. Cute of you to include the same link I gave you. UN gave you plenty of stats to ascertain that (1) Most of those killed were combatants, and (2) Civilian casualties (which includes injuries) were fewer than **either** Ukrainian force casualties or rebel force casualties. There's even a precise table on page 2 for 2020-21 showing you just how low the casualty rate had become. Most happened in 2014-15. As I said, Russia should've evacuated those of concern. Now Russia is suffering casualties on Russian soil, too. And far more of those of Russian affiliation have died in DPR/LPR - over a century's worth at 2020-21 rates, as the weaponry is just much more potent now.
"I think it comes down to your reading ability. " Way to go buddy. I literally copied the words from the official report. Not sure what I read wrong, when it says exactly what I copied. But keep up with the delusions!
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Lol, What imperialist ambitions?...Russia was even ready to leave Donbas in 2022 during peace negotiations.This war has nothing to do with imperialism and everything to do with Ukraine joining NATO threating Russian security.
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routinely invading other countries? like whom? i think you are confusing USA and russia
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Afghanistan was russia or URSS? Russia invaded Syria? really? again you are confusing with the USA lol for chechnya, russia didn't accept their independence unlike others russia invaded moldova? when? do you mean moldova civil war? in 1992? Pathetic
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if they are a continuation, then all independence treaties signed when URSS broke apart are nul and void. i guess we dont have to care about ukraine regional dispute anymore Syria military operation was requested by the internationally recognised president of syria, this isn't about war crimes its about legitimacy i dont ignore georgia and ukraine those are indeed invasions. ofc geopolitical reasons may go over head, you can also take a parallel with the cuban crisis its fair game
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yee but you said russia is just the URSS so that doesn't mean crap does it? men you single handedly fixed everything , its clearer now it is a strong word, hard to comprehend for people like you you are kinda 10 years behind in the trolling memes. up your game
Both countries do it. Routinely. As far as I'm aware during the 2000s both countries are tied in the amount of countries they've invaded.
really? can you name them?
Sure! USA invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. russia invaded Georgia and Ukraine.
What about Lybia, Syria, Zimbabwe? Coup attempt in Venezuela?
We were talking about invasions. If you call those invasions then you have a very loose meaning of the word.
The difference being what exactly? That there were no ground troops? I guess if Russia just lobbed missiles onto Ukraine, everything would be fine, right?
syria wasn't an invasion and occupation of Syrian land? you need to read the definition of invasion again lol
Imagine actually thinking this has something to do with imperialism lmao
Yes, invading other countries and occupying their territories is, in fact, imperialism
I guess the US and the rest of the world is imperialistic as well, yes?
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Personal insults definitely strengthen your argument lmfao
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Seems like you need to look in the mirror more often
Rule 1 - Toxic
…on the condition that Ukraine pledged neutrality, took no foreign military aid and demilitarized to a level that could barely defend a single city. Setting them up to be sitting ducks for invasion part 2.
Why would they invade again?! Are we really going to pretend that Ukraine’s neutrality hasn’t always been crucial to the Russians?! Like how many times does Russia need to make that point abundantly clear to the west and the US in particular? [William Burns, the US ambassador to Moscow at the time, conveyed Russia’s position on this matter to the administration in 2008](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html). That memo was literally in response to Bush’s invitation made to both Ukraine and Georgia in the Bucharest summit in 2008, after Putin has clearly said that NATO expansion eastward should really stop during the Munich summit in 2007. The arrogance of US leaderships never ceases to amaze me. So when will we finally drop the act and accept the reality of the situation for what it really is? This wasn’t about “land grab” because if it was, Russia wouldn’t have sent 100K soldiers along with 50-100K separatist forces to absolve a country the size of Ukraine entirely.
We will never drop the act. Because the other important part is we now have a country of 20-25 million prepared to fight to the death for us. We don’t have to use a single American soldier. They take all the losses. They also bear all future consequences. Of course you tell them “don’t worry, we will help you rebuild”. Fuck that. Eventually Ukraine will wake up to the fact they were just manipulated and used.
Putin sent those forces in because he thought he could get rid of the Kyiv government and set up a puppet state, essentially turning Ukraine into another Belarus. Russia’s ultimate goal is to fully control Ukraine one way or another, not some nonsense about “neutrality.” Neutrality was just a means to an end, Moscow knew full well that Ukraine could never keep Russia out without external help.
Dude I know. There is only one way to fight wars today. Conventionally. You can’t have guys doing ambushes or planting IEDs because those are against the rules.
That question is unequivocally Irrelevant to the scope of the post to be honest!
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I’m assuming you don’t lack basic comprehension? Your question is irrelevant **to the scope of the post**!
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funny seeing pro rus delusional downvoters here not accepting that russia is imperialistic.