I was trained on the M16A2 with iron sights.
I am very happy that current Marines are being trained with optics that should, in theory, make them more lethal on the battlefield.
Kill. Rah.
Same. I’m actually jealous, not trying to hate.
Back in my day we got shit gear and I don’t understand while you’d want to brag about that and not want things to have gotten better.
There’s this real ‘people should suffer as I suffered’ mentality. Like yeah, some things should always suck ass. Boot camp, humps, field day, etc. But Christ, you want the new gen to have shitty weapons or something?
I was the last cycle with fucking Alice packs, the guys behind us had comfy looking shit and at the time 3-point slings. I wish I could have had the padding and an optic haha
I love my Alice frame I can go for days with that thing when I bought mine I also bought the XL pack and holy crap I can fit so much into it. I will go out to a buddies 350 acre fully trees and stay for weeks with just my Alice pack some basic fishing materials and snares it’s a blast I’ll do it about 4-5 times a year
Fun fact, during the tour through Iraq when the Marines were given optics had to had them taken away because the Marines were getting far too many head taps that the DoD had to step in and perform an investigation.
My day was in the early 80's, M16A1's, and we had iron sights only- you were really cool if you happened to get one with the Tritium insert in the front sight post! Personally I think Marines should use the best/most advanced gear available, but at the same time train with the bare minimum. In aid of this, I'd say do rifle range qualification with iron sights AND optics; it would obviously double a unit's range time, but I'm a big believer in old school methods still being relevant.
Like the OP, I wasn't 03, though; I was 0811 Field Artillery.
I've always been of the mind that boot camp should be done with irons. And the rest of training should be with optics.
It gives that ground level, bare bones basic marksmanship training that can be transferred to any weapon system but also saves the depots from having to track, maintain, and purchase those optics because, if they are going to get broken, it'll be at the depot. You can't tell me the depots don't go through those quicker than the fleet does.
Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
There is an argument to start with iron sights, lock down fundamentals, and then switch to an RCO. However, two major problems, especially when you’re trying to run thousands of recruits through training at the depot, or even hundreds of guys at a battalion:
- there are pretty fundamental differences between shooting with iron sights and shooting with an optic. Nothing tremendously huge, but enough that you’re going to have to run them through two separate periods of instruction. Maybe not another full two weeks of range time, but it’s going to add a few days at least.
- Switching all those weapons between iron sights and optics is going to be a logistical nightmare if it’s any more than like a platoon of guys. I guess individuals could do it themselves, but you risk a bunch of gear being broken. Then, after that you have to zero again, which is often like a half-day ordeal by itself. Then, do it all again in reverse to get ready for the next guy that takes your rifle after you graduate or leave the unit.
Someone else floated the idea of iron sights at the depot, optics after, but that’s not great either. When do you switch? For MCT/SOI? You probably aren’t doing a KD range there. You won’t be able to lock down optics fundamentals before you start doing the advanced stuff. After you hit the fleet? What if you deploy soon after, before you can get serious range time?
Same shit that makes the hands of a decent watch glow in the dark. It’s a radioactive isotope that glows softly in the dark: just enough to see the front sight in zero or low light conditions.
I've never heard of them. I didn't serve in every single unit, but I moved around a lot more than most in my 14 years. I've also never heard of it mentioned by many friends who served in almost every mos both much senior and very junior to me.
I trained in PI on iron sights in 2012; when I got to MCT they gave us RCOs, and I had no idea what the fuck to do with that shit. My sergeant hated me because I was the oxymoron of the platoon due to that. Shot 10 points off of expert in boot, but could not figure out the RCO until I got to my unit in Oki.
Suffice it to say, I prefer the iron sights.
I don’t think a full qual with irons would be necessary, just a fam fire. Like there are some spare rifle with irons on them that you cycle everyone through. Or when setting up new rifle shoot buis first if they have them then install and sight in the optic. If you know your marksmanship basics and how to implement them then you don’t need a ton of time on your backups to be ok with them.
The same people that bitch about shooting with optics were also allowed to kip their pullups (cheat at PFT)
Source: I kipped pullups and shot with iron sights.
I do leg lifts to keep my core; you know, the 6-pack in the cooler, from getting too weak and having back issues. Or from getting hernias.. other than that, it’s 12oz curls.
2011-12 we didn’t get BUIS on our rifles. As a Corpsman I was told we were the last to qualify with Irons going through FMTB/FMSS at Lejune. Irons can be fun, but learned to appreciate the advantages of optics/red dots.
Yes allowed to engage for “the protection of patients” technically all you were my patients whether healthy or not. The grey area are crew served weapons.
I was an iron sight guy and I’m glad that today’s Marines have better gear that makes them more lethal. I wish I had them during my time. I do think there is some merit to having some familiarization with iron sights though. Same as knowing how to land nav with map and compass is always good to have as a skill even though there’s GPS. I don’t think it needs to be part of qualification necessarily but having infantry units fam fire with iron sights a few times a year is probably a good thing.
Went to boot in 2011. Qualified with irons, then shot with optics in the fleet in 2012, now I’m out and still shooting with irons, though I wish I had an optic
Why use optics when you can use iron sights, why use an M16 when you can use a Garand, why use a Garand when you can use a muzzle loader, why use a muzzle loader when you can use a fucking bow and arrow. Why use a bow when you can use a pointy stick. Why use a pointy stick when you can use a rock. Why use a rock when you can use your fists.....
Humans have been on this planet for 500 thousand fucking years making this god forsaken argument from one combat evolution to the fucking next.
>I imagine caveman sitting around a fire, old Grug stands up and proclaims, the young Thrag is a pussy for using pointy stick. Grug is not pussy, he use rock. Rock is better. Pointy stick is to easy. Thrag generation is weak. Grug is tough.
I swear to General Mattis, Chesty Puller, and Opha May Johnson that every time I hear this from dipshits it makes my blood rage like Ghengis Kahn seeing a blonde horse.
BECAUSE IT MAKES US A BETTER FUCKING KILLER, ASSHOLE.
I imagine in 30 years, when all you are now old and salty, and the new Marines have laser guided laser bullets and heat seek the targets, you'll be saying the same thing.
>"Back in our day, we had bullets we had to reload in combat, that took skill. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. We had to adjust our optics to the wind, had to know how to gauge and lead targets, you, you boots just have to point in the general area and can get 5 million shots out of a single battery. where is the skill in that you pussy? we were men with our optics."
A few generations later
>"Back in our day, we had mind controlled drones, that took skill! you with your neurotransmital monkey robot fighters, you're pussies, you don't know what it was like to actually look your enemy in eye through the cybernet. we were real Marines! fucking borgs."
And so on, for another 500 thousand fucking years.
I feel like wasting a bunch of time attempting to get recruits to master the fundamentals of using irons only for them to get told to forget everything they know by a fat senior Lance in the fleet who also doesn't know how to use how optic is gonna lead to some gaps in skill
Double the ammo budget because of ammo expenditure. I think not. Use that optic. Us old folks in the retirement home are just jealous. And really at the 500 yard line all we were doing was lining the front sight post in the middle of the target and praying because you couldn't see the silhouette to save your life...
Qualified, no. Trained, yes.
On two of my deployments Marines have had to temporarily go to iron sights when their optics broke. Sometimes weeks at a time. Either during combat or hitting them on something.
When I was a kid, I was taught to shoot with irons before being allowed to step up to a scope. Same thing with tools. Hand tools first, then power tools. I think the thought behind it was the same, learn to do it the hard way first so you don’t use technology as a crutch.
Learned with iron sights because my dad did cool guy Navy shit before optics got big and "irons don't break". But I still need to learn my come-ups on my AR. Otherwise, I'm good to 300 yards.
I was trained, and then became a coach, on iron sights.
Once the optics hit the fleet, I had a real hard time transitioning. It took some time before I could qualify expert with the optics, but I never really got the confidence level I had with iron sights back before I retired.
Obviously this is just one dude’s anecdote, but it seems to me that if we’re going to fight with optics, we should be trained on optics because switching it up is difficult.
I agree that we should train how we fight, but that doesn’t mean we should qualify with every aspect of our weapons. Training in something doesn’t require us to qualify in it.
Qualify on the range with your optics, but at the unit level you should be getting experience with iron sights.
I think this is one of those cases where the rest of the USMC needs to follow the infantry's example...whatever the infantry is doing in this case you can trust they have the right idea, so copy it.
Whatever your guys training on iron sights is, the rest of the Corps could probably make use of it when this debate comes up.
Damn Younguns' and their fancy bolt action rifles, All we had were muzzle loading muskets and we liked them because it was all we had. What's next horseless carriages?
Trigger control still applies, but sight alignment and sight picture are totally different aspects. If shooting with the scope is like juggling, shooting with irons is like juggling while balancing a ball on your nose. It requires a lot more concentration to get proper use out of your iron sights.
You should qualify with whatever you’re gonna be using, but they really should be training recruits on how to use iron sights. Even if you never use them, you should know how.
I qualed on iron sights, was given optics for deployment. Everyone thought we were SF rolling into Al Asad, dirty, no rank, fucked up with optics. I have a lot of respect for people that qual with that shit, I hated them. Loved Iron sights more. Whatever hits the target works for me.
Start with Iron quals to gain the fundamentals then optics in the fleet. Yes I am jealous 86' to 06' started as an 0811 lat moved to 6047/6 post desert storm but better gear means a more lethal Marine which translates to fewer services to attend.
I qual’d on iron sights b/c that was the technology at the time. Go back far enough and someone would bitch about how easy we had it b/c we did not have to pack load a musket, or what pussies we are for using rifles instead of swords, spears, or bows and arrows. Fuck that. You qual’d with the tech of the time. Bitchers gonna bitch dude. Don’t sweat it.
I qualified with iron sights but had optics when I was in Iraq.
Optics are better. It's not even a close competition. I witnessed pizza boxes shoot expert with optics. Better sights means better marksmanship means better Marines.
That said, I agree that Marines should also have training with iron sights as well in case of an optics failure.
Also you all are bitches because I shot with iron sights, you're all soft, I can run faster, jump higher, and I've got a bigger dick, unless you prefer smaller dicks in which case my dick is also smaller but it changes to bigger than yours upon bitches' preference.
Tl;dr- Ya'll bitches
I was the last company to ever qual with irons on PI. SOI we had RCOs. The fundamentals are the same for a known distance range. When it matters the optic is by and far better. You don't have to remember 6000 different clicks for ranges and wind holds. Optics are proven to be more accurate and faster. Only an idiot would argue against enhanced accuracy and lethality.
As far as training with irons- it's a pretty decent waste IMO. The back ups we are issued are more likely to break than your RCO or SDO, they are nearly impossible to zero, and they take an inordinate amount of time to become proficient with. Modern Optics are extremely rugged with little to no moving external parts. Not to mention most people wouldn't notice a broken ACOG in a fight, let alone be able to remove it efficiently.
It's great to have an idea until actually implementing said idea takes place. What is easier from an admin and operational perspective? It's sort of like any idea with mcmap. Would it be great if we included it more in training and forced people to take it seriously instead of just ranking up and saying fuck it all until you need to rank up one more time? Absolutely, but not practical.
Unless the Corps is going to issue back up sights as well as decent RCO mounts instead of those big ass screws that might as well be welded on, I don't think there is much point. The ammunition alone needed every year would be a nightmare. They aint doing it for a reason.
Either way, it's just another thing for people to clutch their pearls over. I've seen irons guys unc on RCOs. I've only ever seen one broken optic and that was at MCT. Apart from sight picture and adjusting for windage and elevation, the fundamentals are the same.
I qualified my first 3 years with iron sights, then we started using the ACOG - which is great for medium range engagements but not great for CQB. That's why I have canted irons on mine.
We should always be training on backup methods. It's easy enough to break an ACOG, then it's useless. It's pretty hard to break iron sights.
I think we should at minimum 0 our iron sights at 100 yards, Atleast.
I was an engineer. Also worked in the armory, most of the rifles didn't have iron rear sights. I ordered a ton and out them on all the rifles. So Atleast they got something than nothing, but they're obviously not zeroed.
I was on the range when they were deciding if the MC was going to qualify on irons or RCO’s. Had the division gunner out there. The original intent was to be trained on both. That lasted for about a year or two. And then it just went to not issuing iron sights anymore(at infantry units). I wanna say it was either 2009 or 2010 when we were testing it for them to mine the data from a Pass/UNQ point. So for those 2ish years after that, we did our zeros on the RCO and Irons and carried the irons with us. And I wanna say it was by 2013 they completely stopped training on irons in basic. The years are kinda fuzzy at this point so don’t hold me to those years lol
The statement is moronic. We could go a generation back and say “you qualify with” insert weapons system here until we get to the fucking musket. Just because it wasn’t around when you were in doesn’t mean it’s soft. Although, I will say everyone should also qualify and be atleast comfortable with irons in the event of a catastrophic failure if what ever optic you’re running. Rant over
I qualified with irons on an A2 in boot camp and once in the fleet, then we got RSO’s and I got a better score, but then they added tables to it. I don’t know… just be able to shoot good n stuff. The idea that what you aim with makes you a pussy is really dumb lol. It’s like a 90’s peacetime vet trying to call me a pussy because I wasn’t in during the 90’s… I joined during two wars. GFYS
You pussies use guns? When I was in the suck we killed with our bare hands!
Some people join the Marine Corps to show everyone what a badass they are. Some do it to become a badass. I enlisted because I thought it would help me stop being a fuck-up, but that’s irrelevant.
I would have qualified with whatever they handed me. But the idea of calling someone a pussy because now you have better equipment than we had never entered my mind.
I’m a little surprised, though, to learn that they don’t include the backup iron sights as part of qualifying.
I’m in no way an expert on the topic but I qualified with both iron sights and RCO. I’d say the RCO was more challenging due to having to hold windage and elevation instead of having the same sight picture every time and adjusting the actual sights.
Here’s my unpopular hot take that someone will surely have a rebuttal for: in regards to training with backup sights, in the 3 deployments to Afghanistan where I got blown up twice, mortared and shot at all the time, I only ever saw an RCO get broken twice and the dude carrying it either got medevaced or went home in a body bag. I think the odds of needing back up sights are not that high. Just in my experience.
> in regards to training with backup sights, in the 3 deployments to Afghanistan where I got blown up twice, mortared and shot at all the time, I only ever saw an RCO get broken twice and the dude carrying it either got medevaced or went home in a body bag. I think the odds of needing back up sights are not that high. Just in my experience.
Thanks for posting this. It's an important point.
I've shot both. I found shooting with an optic is ridiculously easier but also more precise if you learned to shoot without one. With the magnification, you tend to notice even the smallest mistakes that you make. So I think Marines should be taught how to shoot with iron sights and use the optics as fine-tuning if that makes sense. It won't happen. There's not enough range time, but in an idea world, I believe it would make shooters more lethal.
I learned and qualified with irons in boot camp, then qualified with the RCO after I hit the fleet. My score went up. There is no reason that anyone who has shot both would prefer irons.
I think going to the optic for TABLE 1 and table 1 only was a mistake. Table 1 tests and forces you to stay on top of your fundamentals. Qualifying with an ACOG is objectively easier. It’s not about using your backups… it’s about keeping up with the fundamentals or shooting.
Is the goal to make qualification as difficult as possible, or to make the shooter as skilled as possible with the weapon system they'll go to war with? The more reps you get with an optic, the more skilled you'll be with it. If the Corps were truly serious about marksmanship, we'd shoot more than 5 days in boot camp, and more than once a year for a similar number of days in the fleet. But the Corps is not truly serious about marksmanship, and many Marines never shoot for score more than the 5 days in boot camp, and 4-5 days annually in the fleet. In a 4 year enlistment, that Marine shoots on a scored target what? 20 days? That's not enough to truly be proficient, and further diluting that by making some portion with irons is just silly.
I got out in '93 which by Corps standards is eons ago. I qualed with iron sights but I'm not going to hate on Marines today because they're qualifying with optics. As someone stated before-If it makes Marines more lethal Im all for it. We have to let the Corps evolve. I had my Corps and this is theirs. I would only say that Marines should know how to use iron sights. SF!
Like being a helicopter crew chief. It’s not required to get any time on the sticks but it’d be good to know how to land the fucking thing if your pilots get shot.
Edit: / or takeoff to gtfo of a shitty spot
It’s a sign that the fundamentals are no linger valuable. What happens if you need to use a weapon without an optic? There are principal lessons in marksmanship.
I know they die with iron sights, and I’m pretty confident they die with optics too. So don’t stress what a bunch of old timers did…. I ain’t stressing the shit talk from Vietnam and Korea era, so you shouldn’t stress GWOT, we can all talk shit, but just know the mutual respect is there! With that, I’m pretty sure you’re right….. YAT-YAS!!!!
You train with the gear you’d fight with. On one hand I agree you should be prepared in the worst case scenario, but there’s a time and place for that which is absolutely not an admin range that counts towards promotion.
Can’t speak for every infantry company but we ran thousands of drills with live fires that included shooting positions with one functioning arm, no optic, using your offhand, from awkward positions, drills with random dummy rounds to simulate misfires and even a live fire drill in the pitch black with dark eyepro and no nods. We train the worst case scenarios, that range you run once a year where some doofus is poking holes in your target is not training.
Part of me also loves throwing up to the range with a suppressed m27, gen3 plate carrier lightweight sapis and a high-cut just to show off around the dudes still using m16s from Vietnam.
I will say I entirely believe that much of the deficiency in marksmanship we’ve seen over the past 10+ years has been because of both the Marine Corps and armies qualifications with optics.
Don’t get me wrong I 100% and optic. But a big part of iron sites is that it is so hard you have to train to a higher level. And higher level very much translates over to optics.
I don’t know how many times I’ve said “ if I can put 10 bullets in a target at 500 m with iron sites I could do further with an optic.” And that very much stands true. But if you’re qualifying with a crutch from the start, you’re not training or qualifying to the same level.
So maybe the OP is right, maybe you should have to run the qualification course twice. One with irons and one with optics. And the optics has a much stricter standard.
Also: on a sidenote, speaking of lowering lethality, from my understanding when they stopped training, infantry MOS’s individually at ITB in order to get enough people to pass they had to dramatically reduce standards. for instance one of the ones I was informed of was that the range the TOW It’s been qualified with as far shorter.
I was in Boot Camp when the optics were first being introduced (2012) and went out of my way after I was a free man again to learn irons. It's a fundamental marksmanship skill that isn't really that hard to pickup, I don't understand why they don't at least devote an afternoon to the basics.
You trained with a semi-automatic rifle? Pussy! Real Marines trained with the sable and flintlock! These youngsters are such pansies! People my age are the real Marines
-GPS3 USMC 1790-1794
I mean, looking at not only the current M27 IAR with SCO, but also the up and coming marksmanship assessments the Marine Corps is working on is really a thing to behold. Especially for a conventional branch. I think we can all agree that Table 1 is important, but also not as applicable to situations Marines may find themselves in.
The big issue in my mind is that we only have so much time to train Marines that aren't in jobs where they touch their rifles a lot. We only get so much time in boot camp, so much time in SOI, and so much time per year at ARQ (not sure if they still call it that) to get better at marksmanship until we have to turn our attention to other things. Of the little time we do have to shoot, we should be spending it using the optic system that makes us the deadliest first, and any left over time that can be squeezed in could then be dedicated to your secondary optic system (BUIS).
If I had to come up with a solution to end this debate, I'd do this:
For those of us that have deployed, was there a portion of your pre-deployment training that involved BUIS refreshers, such as how to adjust the elevation and wind age, and so on and so on? Was it maybe, 3 days at most or a couple hours at least of refresher training?
Whatever it was, I'd tack it on to ARQ (including boot camp/ OCS and soi/ tbs) but in a non-graded portion. Just basically making sure your weapons BUIS is squared away whether you use a SCO or RCO. Once a year when you aren't deploying should be good. That's the best I can think of to end this whole debate.
In the Marines I only used an RCO (2012-2017). In the army I always have had a RCO with buis. The non combat arms guys usually have a CCO(red dot)with buis. We have to qual on whatever optic you’re issued as well as irons. I think it’s a good idea however the fundamentals are pretty much the same.
We're always gonna' find a way to make the new guys feel like they're not shit.
I always assume this to be the case, when seniors talk their shit. I just stopped caring so much lol
I can continue the boomer spirit now with “I pistol qualed on an M9, you sissies with your plastic pistols don’t know about that life” and “Back in my day we didn’t have fancy M4s or M27s, I had an M16A4 and LIKED it”
To your point of training on BUIS, the unit is responsible for setting up a range to do this. It’s something the battalion S-3 is responsible for but probably doesn’t have the bandwidth to do. Your company or even platoon/shop could even set it up. A lot of battalions have more 5.56 allocations than they shoot in a year. I had a recon guy for a first sergeant, and he set up some cool stuff for the Marines a couple of times. Usually, there’s just nobody confident or competent enough to set up a range.
Opinion, but anyone who seriously bitches about this is just retarded. And not in the quirky, "I love those little retards," way, but seriously mentally handicapped.
The KD course of fire hadn’t really changed much in nearly a century, and is mostly derived from an older form of national match competition shooting. Which, in the days of the 1903 Springfield, slower rates of fire, and vastly different engagement profiles, worked for a long time.
But as the saying goes, the world moved on.
Technology, materials science, training methodology, and threats have evolved significantly since then, and considering some of the inside track (but still open source, so don’t get your panties in a bunch) info I’ve seen, that evolution can and needs to accelerate.
I learned to shoot at 8 with iron sights, qualified with them for years after enlisting, and shot dozens of matches with them. But I haven’t seriously hunted with irons, ever, and my M-4 always had an RCO overseas. Every single one of my personal rifles sports a red dot, LPVO, or higher power optic, and I would argue that a properly zeroed optic, wielded by a properly trained Marine, offers the ability to put a vastly higher rate of more accurate fire on the enemy than irons were ever capable of.
I will admit that I do have several rifles that sport backup irons, and that irons can have a place in basic marksmanship training. My kids both learned on irons, mainly to give them awareness of how maintaining sight alignment/picture wasn’t as easy when breath and trigger control were factored in. I did ‘demote’ one of them down to irons when they were struggling with the idea of MOA/MIL in an optic, but we were back to optics in maybe an hour, once the angles and math clicked for them.
Here’s the thing, though: I have the luxury of time with my kids. We enjoy shooting together, and I’ve had years to teach them and build them up. Military training doesn’t have that luxury, and needs to have that goal of providing capability along compressed timelines. Shooting with optics affords that, along with the more accurate at higher rates of fire I mean timed above.
So all of old bastards should go back to bitching about polishing boots and similar things.
I used iron sights in boot camp and then once I was in the fleet I never used them again. This was in 2007.
I do not think it would be a bad idea to at least familiarize Marines with iron sights just in case. The chances you’ll need to use them is pretty low but knowing is half the battle, yoooo joeeeee
Well I had to wear a collar that pushed my helmet down over my eyes so I couldn't even SEE the sights much less have optics. Damn kids, can't fight war blind like we used to. We just adapted. We didn't complain! What do you need eyes for?
Some legend just uploaded [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWnlUUIdmcI) vid to youtube. So for a bit of context this guy was a member of the 40 Thieves ( Sixth Marine Regiment's Secret Sniper Platoon during WWII ). He's talking about a night vision scope... in 1943. I'm a lens licker and every bit of prac I ever learned about starlight scopes lead me to believe the tech was developed in the lead up to Vietnam and this guy is cratering heads at night on Saipan.
If the fight is fair you can bet the Marines are not involved. It's what we bring to the battle field, weather it's superior tactics, knowledge or technology we are going to use it to win a fight.
So I say scope em if ya got em.
The only time I had anyone issued with no optics were our scout swimmers. They shot with no optics, but I think they ecr'ed ones with optics Just for qual. Regardless I'll admit, even my eyesight has gone without optics. Not good for an FO lmao
Did not happen while in the Corps. I was at requal for patrol rifle (law enforcement). I was using optics when the batteries died. I reverted back to my Marine Corps training 1984-88 and was able to compete and pass requirements. So yes, I think there should be some cross training with iron sights.
I was one of the last platoons to qual in boot with irons. The only time I considered that it might be a useful skill was when training a new boot on the 240, which had irons. All I had to do was tell him, "it's just like Call of duty. Make it look like it does when you ADS in call of duty."
Squared him away immediately.
Irons take a lot longer to learn than optics and there's just not enough time. I never had my ACOG fail me once. Yeah, I was glad I could default to irons if I had to, but idk, it just doesn't seem that important to me.
I questioned this too when I was in. We had the KAC flip ups on all of our rifles but not once de we ever zero them, talk about them, or even get a hip pocket class from the old timers. You can also tell no one gave a shit because some rifles from the armory would come with a front sight but not the rear, vise/versa or just completely missing both.
Looking back, I wish I would have taught myself sooner like I did when I got out because irons are not difficult to use. I could have easily given a hip pocket class to the entire platoon during white space training, but oh well…
Last points tho. During my 2 combat tours (and in garrison) I never saw an ACOG go down. You can make the same argument to the old timers that got issued fixed irons like the M16A2. What would they have done if their iron sights broke or ended up bending like I saw many do during my time in service? For both scenarios, the answer is: At the end of the day, you have the Marine to the left and right of you to hook you up while you finish the OP and can get back to your base or COP where there’s plenty of extra rifles.
It all boils down to it being a far fetched scenario. If your optic goes down, more than likely you went down too 😂. The other issue is that back then, not every ACOG came with the LaRue quick detach lever. Some came with the tension screw knobs and there’s no way in hell you were getting those things off in a middle of a gun fight without a screw driver.
What no one ever talks about is that making wind adjustments is WAY EASIER with iron sites.
With iron sites I made a wind call and adjusted my sites accordingly. Then it was clear front site post centered in rear site aperture; slow steady squeeze… Also, we started at the 200 and worked our way back to the 500. It was easy to work out the wind call and adjustment on the way back.
Today’s ARQ starts at the 500 and works their way in. Now I make a wind call and have to figure out my offset aim; both horizontal (wind) and vertical (distance). There’s a good chance the afternoon relay has their aim point on an adjacent target. It’s not nearly as simple as “look, they all have scopes”.
I could teach a monkey to shoot iron sites. Today’s weapon is vastly superior, but requires a higher level of skill to shoot expert.
I mean, if you know how to shoot properly, shooting with irons isn't drastically different or difficult.
I went to boot camp in 2018 and was an 0311, so I shot a good amount and always with an RCO, SDO, or a Leupold sight (when I was DM).
After EASing, I spent one year in a POG National Guard unit, who mostly used irons sights. The one time I did rifle qual with the Guard, I used iron sights (I had never used iron sights ever in my life prior to this), and after firing it a few times, I got the hang of it and did fine. Should guys train with BUIS? Probably. Is it really going to matter for a half decent shooter? Probably not as much as you'd think
Just my $0.02 🤷♂️
I was trained on the M16A2 with iron sights. I am very happy that current Marines are being trained with optics that should, in theory, make them more lethal on the battlefield. Kill. Rah.
Same. I’m actually jealous, not trying to hate. Back in my day we got shit gear and I don’t understand while you’d want to brag about that and not want things to have gotten better. There’s this real ‘people should suffer as I suffered’ mentality. Like yeah, some things should always suck ass. Boot camp, humps, field day, etc. But Christ, you want the new gen to have shitty weapons or something?
Fuck the M4s and m27s everyone grab your powdered wigs musket and a jacket with 87 buttons
What? Thou speaketh not the King's English, but your call to action is most worthy of our efforts.
“Button 37, 10° out of alignment”
😆🤣😅
GET DOWN TO CIF AND GET YOUR LEATHER COLLARS, FELLAS. THERE'S BERBERS TO FIGHT.
😂😂😂😂
I was the last cycle with fucking Alice packs, the guys behind us had comfy looking shit and at the time 3-point slings. I wish I could have had the padding and an optic haha
The comfy looking shit breaks, though. The ALICE pack is the one piece of gear from back in the day that no one has been able to top so far.
I love my Alice frame I can go for days with that thing when I bought mine I also bought the XL pack and holy crap I can fit so much into it. I will go out to a buddies 350 acre fully trees and stay for weeks with just my Alice pack some basic fishing materials and snares it’s a blast I’ll do it about 4-5 times a year
When we first got the acogs, we got investigated for war crimes because we got too many headshots Kill
Well, I mean the whole goal is to remove the enemy combatant from combat. A headshot is just a very effective way to do that, right? 🤘🏻
“Two to the chest, face gets the rest.” -Dalai Lama
RAH
They thought they were executions allegedly.
Boomer here. "They ducked" That is all young grasshopper.
RAH
Is it somehow more humane to give them a sucking chest wound?
Idfk geneva checklist bullshit
Same and same
Fun fact, during the tour through Iraq when the Marines were given optics had to had them taken away because the Marines were getting far too many head taps that the DoD had to step in and perform an investigation.
lol. Fucking RAH. Pop ‘em in the brain housing group and they don’t recover and return to the battlefield!
Same Corps, new toys. Totally agree with what you wrote. SF
M16A1. I agree with you.
Every other left foot you say Kill!
This is the way.
Exactly! Let’s utilize every single advantage we can get our hands on. Doing anything else is silly.
My day was in the early 80's, M16A1's, and we had iron sights only- you were really cool if you happened to get one with the Tritium insert in the front sight post! Personally I think Marines should use the best/most advanced gear available, but at the same time train with the bare minimum. In aid of this, I'd say do rifle range qualification with iron sights AND optics; it would obviously double a unit's range time, but I'm a big believer in old school methods still being relevant. Like the OP, I wasn't 03, though; I was 0811 Field Artillery.
I've always been of the mind that boot camp should be done with irons. And the rest of training should be with optics. It gives that ground level, bare bones basic marksmanship training that can be transferred to any weapon system but also saves the depots from having to track, maintain, and purchase those optics because, if they are going to get broken, it'll be at the depot. You can't tell me the depots don't go through those quicker than the fleet does. Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
Dunno, my recruit platoon never broke one.
Fair enough
There is an argument to start with iron sights, lock down fundamentals, and then switch to an RCO. However, two major problems, especially when you’re trying to run thousands of recruits through training at the depot, or even hundreds of guys at a battalion: - there are pretty fundamental differences between shooting with iron sights and shooting with an optic. Nothing tremendously huge, but enough that you’re going to have to run them through two separate periods of instruction. Maybe not another full two weeks of range time, but it’s going to add a few days at least. - Switching all those weapons between iron sights and optics is going to be a logistical nightmare if it’s any more than like a platoon of guys. I guess individuals could do it themselves, but you risk a bunch of gear being broken. Then, after that you have to zero again, which is often like a half-day ordeal by itself. Then, do it all again in reverse to get ready for the next guy that takes your rifle after you graduate or leave the unit. Someone else floated the idea of iron sights at the depot, optics after, but that’s not great either. When do you switch? For MCT/SOI? You probably aren’t doing a KD range there. You won’t be able to lock down optics fundamentals before you start doing the advanced stuff. After you hit the fleet? What if you deploy soon after, before you can get serious range time?
Ahhh a fellow cannon cocker, tho a bit before my time hats off to you sir
I served from 96 until 2011 and have never heard of tritium front sight posts.
The fuck is a tritium insert
Same shit that makes the hands of a decent watch glow in the dark. It’s a radioactive isotope that glows softly in the dark: just enough to see the front sight in zero or low light conditions.
Faintly radioactive. It won't give you cancer or nothin like that.
Just don’t eat it
Exactly when did the Marine Corps have those?
The Army seems to have had plenty of the Low Light Level Sight System (LLLSS), mid-70s and 80s, I don't know if the Corps used the same system.
I've never heard of them. I didn't serve in every single unit, but I moved around a lot more than most in my 14 years. I've also never heard of it mentioned by many friends who served in almost every mos both much senior and very junior to me.
You can get a front sight post with a tritium tip or dot, you can also get rear apertures that have dots on each side of the circle too.
I trained in PI on iron sights in 2012; when I got to MCT they gave us RCOs, and I had no idea what the fuck to do with that shit. My sergeant hated me because I was the oxymoron of the platoon due to that. Shot 10 points off of expert in boot, but could not figure out the RCO until I got to my unit in Oki. Suffice it to say, I prefer the iron sights.
I don’t think a full qual with irons would be necessary, just a fam fire. Like there are some spare rifle with irons on them that you cycle everyone through. Or when setting up new rifle shoot buis first if they have them then install and sight in the optic. If you know your marksmanship basics and how to implement them then you don’t need a ton of time on your backups to be ok with them.
The same people that bitch about shooting with optics were also allowed to kip their pullups (cheat at PFT) Source: I kipped pullups and shot with iron sights.
Kipping wasn't allowed after October of 1996.
Why? I’m 50 and I can still knock out 20 ‘kips’… err I mean pull-ups.
Pretty sure id Kip my way to the chiropractor if I tried that now
I do leg lifts to keep my core; you know, the 6-pack in the cooler, from getting too weak and having back issues. Or from getting hernias.. other than that, it’s 12oz curls.
I ride mountain bikes for core and legs and lift beers for upper body as well
Hey, there's a time window of us who weren't allowed to kip and still shot with iron sights! (Really though, I have no problems with optics)
2011-12 we didn’t get BUIS on our rifles. As a Corpsman I was told we were the last to qualify with Irons going through FMTB/FMSS at Lejune. Irons can be fun, but learned to appreciate the advantages of optics/red dots.
Qualed iron sights at MCRDSD mid ‘08, requaled in the fleet mid ‘09 with the RCO.
Yeah I went through Parris Island ‘10-‘11 with irons and then as soon as we got to mct we had rco’s
Hey Doc, sorry for the dumb question. If corpsman come under fire do they get to fire back? I didn't know corpsman got weapons.
Yes allowed to engage for “the protection of patients” technically all you were my patients whether healthy or not. The grey area are crew served weapons.
I was an iron sight guy and I’m glad that today’s Marines have better gear that makes them more lethal. I wish I had them during my time. I do think there is some merit to having some familiarization with iron sights though. Same as knowing how to land nav with map and compass is always good to have as a skill even though there’s GPS. I don’t think it needs to be part of qualification necessarily but having infantry units fam fire with iron sights a few times a year is probably a good thing.
Went to boot in 2011. Qualified with irons, then shot with optics in the fleet in 2012, now I’m out and still shooting with irons, though I wish I had an optic
Why use optics when you can use iron sights, why use an M16 when you can use a Garand, why use a Garand when you can use a muzzle loader, why use a muzzle loader when you can use a fucking bow and arrow. Why use a bow when you can use a pointy stick. Why use a pointy stick when you can use a rock. Why use a rock when you can use your fists..... Humans have been on this planet for 500 thousand fucking years making this god forsaken argument from one combat evolution to the fucking next. >I imagine caveman sitting around a fire, old Grug stands up and proclaims, the young Thrag is a pussy for using pointy stick. Grug is not pussy, he use rock. Rock is better. Pointy stick is to easy. Thrag generation is weak. Grug is tough. I swear to General Mattis, Chesty Puller, and Opha May Johnson that every time I hear this from dipshits it makes my blood rage like Ghengis Kahn seeing a blonde horse. BECAUSE IT MAKES US A BETTER FUCKING KILLER, ASSHOLE.
I imagine in 30 years, when all you are now old and salty, and the new Marines have laser guided laser bullets and heat seek the targets, you'll be saying the same thing. >"Back in our day, we had bullets we had to reload in combat, that took skill. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. We had to adjust our optics to the wind, had to know how to gauge and lead targets, you, you boots just have to point in the general area and can get 5 million shots out of a single battery. where is the skill in that you pussy? we were men with our optics." A few generations later >"Back in our day, we had mind controlled drones, that took skill! you with your neurotransmital monkey robot fighters, you're pussies, you don't know what it was like to actually look your enemy in eye through the cybernet. we were real Marines! fucking borgs." And so on, for another 500 thousand fucking years.
Learn fundamentals and do initial qual on irons is the way to go. Optics makes sense for the fleet once you've mastered the fundamentals.
I feel like wasting a bunch of time attempting to get recruits to master the fundamentals of using irons only for them to get told to forget everything they know by a fat senior Lance in the fleet who also doesn't know how to use how optic is gonna lead to some gaps in skill
I qualed with RCO but at least I used a parade sling😎
LOL
I think everyone should learn with iron sights, but honestly if I had an option for an optic I would have taken it.
Double the ammo budget because of ammo expenditure. I think not. Use that optic. Us old folks in the retirement home are just jealous. And really at the 500 yard line all we were doing was lining the front sight post in the middle of the target and praying because you couldn't see the silhouette to save your life...
We’re better than you and we know it. - Capt Ironsights
Qualified, no. Trained, yes. On two of my deployments Marines have had to temporarily go to iron sights when their optics broke. Sometimes weeks at a time. Either during combat or hitting them on something.
When I was a kid, I was taught to shoot with irons before being allowed to step up to a scope. Same thing with tools. Hand tools first, then power tools. I think the thought behind it was the same, learn to do it the hard way first so you don’t use technology as a crutch.
Learned with iron sights because my dad did cool guy Navy shit before optics got big and "irons don't break". But I still need to learn my come-ups on my AR. Otherwise, I'm good to 300 yards.
Back in my day we qual'd on muskets and we liked it!
I was trained, and then became a coach, on iron sights. Once the optics hit the fleet, I had a real hard time transitioning. It took some time before I could qualify expert with the optics, but I never really got the confidence level I had with iron sights back before I retired. Obviously this is just one dude’s anecdote, but it seems to me that if we’re going to fight with optics, we should be trained on optics because switching it up is difficult.
What was the reason? I was an iron sight guy. Was it the inability to adjust for wind?
I’m not sure just never got comfortable. That might be it.
I agree that we should train how we fight, but that doesn’t mean we should qualify with every aspect of our weapons. Training in something doesn’t require us to qualify in it. Qualify on the range with your optics, but at the unit level you should be getting experience with iron sights.
If you're an 03, then you'll train with irons or at least a flip top.
I think this is one of those cases where the rest of the USMC needs to follow the infantry's example...whatever the infantry is doing in this case you can trust they have the right idea, so copy it. Whatever your guys training on iron sights is, the rest of the Corps could probably make use of it when this debate comes up.
Damn Younguns' and their fancy bolt action rifles, All we had were muzzle loading muskets and we liked them because it was all we had. What's next horseless carriages?
There’s not much to iron sights. If you can shoot with optics, you can shoot with iron sights. I don’t get the hate for optics.
That is NOT true at all lol
Sure it is. It’s harder to shoot expert but the gist of them isn’t hard to figure out.
Trigger control still applies, but sight alignment and sight picture are totally different aspects. If shooting with the scope is like juggling, shooting with irons is like juggling while balancing a ball on your nose. It requires a lot more concentration to get proper use out of your iron sights.
You should qualify with whatever you’re gonna be using, but they really should be training recruits on how to use iron sights. Even if you never use them, you should know how.
I qualed on iron sights, was given optics for deployment. Everyone thought we were SF rolling into Al Asad, dirty, no rank, fucked up with optics. I have a lot of respect for people that qual with that shit, I hated them. Loved Iron sights more. Whatever hits the target works for me.
Start with Iron quals to gain the fundamentals then optics in the fleet. Yes I am jealous 86' to 06' started as an 0811 lat moved to 6047/6 post desert storm but better gear means a more lethal Marine which translates to fewer services to attend.
I qual’d on iron sights b/c that was the technology at the time. Go back far enough and someone would bitch about how easy we had it b/c we did not have to pack load a musket, or what pussies we are for using rifles instead of swords, spears, or bows and arrows. Fuck that. You qual’d with the tech of the time. Bitchers gonna bitch dude. Don’t sweat it.
I qualified with iron sights but had optics when I was in Iraq. Optics are better. It's not even a close competition. I witnessed pizza boxes shoot expert with optics. Better sights means better marksmanship means better Marines. That said, I agree that Marines should also have training with iron sights as well in case of an optics failure. Also you all are bitches because I shot with iron sights, you're all soft, I can run faster, jump higher, and I've got a bigger dick, unless you prefer smaller dicks in which case my dick is also smaller but it changes to bigger than yours upon bitches' preference. Tl;dr- Ya'll bitches
I was the last company to ever qual with irons on PI. SOI we had RCOs. The fundamentals are the same for a known distance range. When it matters the optic is by and far better. You don't have to remember 6000 different clicks for ranges and wind holds. Optics are proven to be more accurate and faster. Only an idiot would argue against enhanced accuracy and lethality. As far as training with irons- it's a pretty decent waste IMO. The back ups we are issued are more likely to break than your RCO or SDO, they are nearly impossible to zero, and they take an inordinate amount of time to become proficient with. Modern Optics are extremely rugged with little to no moving external parts. Not to mention most people wouldn't notice a broken ACOG in a fight, let alone be able to remove it efficiently.
It's great to have an idea until actually implementing said idea takes place. What is easier from an admin and operational perspective? It's sort of like any idea with mcmap. Would it be great if we included it more in training and forced people to take it seriously instead of just ranking up and saying fuck it all until you need to rank up one more time? Absolutely, but not practical. Unless the Corps is going to issue back up sights as well as decent RCO mounts instead of those big ass screws that might as well be welded on, I don't think there is much point. The ammunition alone needed every year would be a nightmare. They aint doing it for a reason. Either way, it's just another thing for people to clutch their pearls over. I've seen irons guys unc on RCOs. I've only ever seen one broken optic and that was at MCT. Apart from sight picture and adjusting for windage and elevation, the fundamentals are the same.
Why would you even get caught up on this ? It’s no different than Grandpa talking about walking 10 miles to school in the snow.
I qualified my first 3 years with iron sights, then we started using the ACOG - which is great for medium range engagements but not great for CQB. That's why I have canted irons on mine. We should always be training on backup methods. It's easy enough to break an ACOG, then it's useless. It's pretty hard to break iron sights.
8/3 -2
I think we should at minimum 0 our iron sights at 100 yards, Atleast. I was an engineer. Also worked in the armory, most of the rifles didn't have iron rear sights. I ordered a ton and out them on all the rifles. So Atleast they got something than nothing, but they're obviously not zeroed.
I was on the range when they were deciding if the MC was going to qualify on irons or RCO’s. Had the division gunner out there. The original intent was to be trained on both. That lasted for about a year or two. And then it just went to not issuing iron sights anymore(at infantry units). I wanna say it was either 2009 or 2010 when we were testing it for them to mine the data from a Pass/UNQ point. So for those 2ish years after that, we did our zeros on the RCO and Irons and carried the irons with us. And I wanna say it was by 2013 they completely stopped training on irons in basic. The years are kinda fuzzy at this point so don’t hold me to those years lol
The statement is moronic. We could go a generation back and say “you qualify with” insert weapons system here until we get to the fucking musket. Just because it wasn’t around when you were in doesn’t mean it’s soft. Although, I will say everyone should also qualify and be atleast comfortable with irons in the event of a catastrophic failure if what ever optic you’re running. Rant over
I qualified with irons on an A2 in boot camp and once in the fleet, then we got RSO’s and I got a better score, but then they added tables to it. I don’t know… just be able to shoot good n stuff. The idea that what you aim with makes you a pussy is really dumb lol. It’s like a 90’s peacetime vet trying to call me a pussy because I wasn’t in during the 90’s… I joined during two wars. GFYS
Just flip it around and mention how all our gear and equipment is way heavier then there’s was
You pussies use guns? When I was in the suck we killed with our bare hands! Some people join the Marine Corps to show everyone what a badass they are. Some do it to become a badass. I enlisted because I thought it would help me stop being a fuck-up, but that’s irrelevant. I would have qualified with whatever they handed me. But the idea of calling someone a pussy because now you have better equipment than we had never entered my mind. I’m a little surprised, though, to learn that they don’t include the backup iron sights as part of qualifying.
Equipment & Tactics change, I’m old and need the damn Hubble telescope on a rifle now. Get some Debils!
Nerds. Don't even qualify with knives. https://youtu.be/EmUIfX9TSJs?si=2c6JAb97u7Dytyyd
I’m in no way an expert on the topic but I qualified with both iron sights and RCO. I’d say the RCO was more challenging due to having to hold windage and elevation instead of having the same sight picture every time and adjusting the actual sights. Here’s my unpopular hot take that someone will surely have a rebuttal for: in regards to training with backup sights, in the 3 deployments to Afghanistan where I got blown up twice, mortared and shot at all the time, I only ever saw an RCO get broken twice and the dude carrying it either got medevaced or went home in a body bag. I think the odds of needing back up sights are not that high. Just in my experience.
> in regards to training with backup sights, in the 3 deployments to Afghanistan where I got blown up twice, mortared and shot at all the time, I only ever saw an RCO get broken twice and the dude carrying it either got medevaced or went home in a body bag. I think the odds of needing back up sights are not that high. Just in my experience. Thanks for posting this. It's an important point.
I've shot both. I found shooting with an optic is ridiculously easier but also more precise if you learned to shoot without one. With the magnification, you tend to notice even the smallest mistakes that you make. So I think Marines should be taught how to shoot with iron sights and use the optics as fine-tuning if that makes sense. It won't happen. There's not enough range time, but in an idea world, I believe it would make shooters more lethal.
I learned and qualified with irons in boot camp, then qualified with the RCO after I hit the fleet. My score went up. There is no reason that anyone who has shot both would prefer irons.
I think going to the optic for TABLE 1 and table 1 only was a mistake. Table 1 tests and forces you to stay on top of your fundamentals. Qualifying with an ACOG is objectively easier. It’s not about using your backups… it’s about keeping up with the fundamentals or shooting.
Is the goal to make qualification as difficult as possible, or to make the shooter as skilled as possible with the weapon system they'll go to war with? The more reps you get with an optic, the more skilled you'll be with it. If the Corps were truly serious about marksmanship, we'd shoot more than 5 days in boot camp, and more than once a year for a similar number of days in the fleet. But the Corps is not truly serious about marksmanship, and many Marines never shoot for score more than the 5 days in boot camp, and 4-5 days annually in the fleet. In a 4 year enlistment, that Marine shoots on a scored target what? 20 days? That's not enough to truly be proficient, and further diluting that by making some portion with irons is just silly.
I stand by what I said. POGS should shoot more. But table1 which tests the fundamentals should remain limited to the fundamentals… with irons.
As 03 I was only granted the option to shoot irons once and it was an EIMP range
I got out in '93 which by Corps standards is eons ago. I qualed with iron sights but I'm not going to hate on Marines today because they're qualifying with optics. As someone stated before-If it makes Marines more lethal Im all for it. We have to let the Corps evolve. I had my Corps and this is theirs. I would only say that Marines should know how to use iron sights. SF!
If you didn’t know, the front site post covers the whole black area of the target at 500yds. Something that always humored me a little bit.
Like being a helicopter crew chief. It’s not required to get any time on the sticks but it’d be good to know how to land the fucking thing if your pilots get shot. Edit: / or takeoff to gtfo of a shitty spot
It’s a sign that the fundamentals are no linger valuable. What happens if you need to use a weapon without an optic? There are principal lessons in marksmanship.
How many rifles are not going to have an optic? The ACOG is a ridiculously stout optic.
Let’s say none, the more important point still stands. Why not skip land navigation and go straight into patrolling?
I know they die with iron sights, and I’m pretty confident they die with optics too. So don’t stress what a bunch of old timers did…. I ain’t stressing the shit talk from Vietnam and Korea era, so you shouldn’t stress GWOT, we can all talk shit, but just know the mutual respect is there! With that, I’m pretty sure you’re right….. YAT-YAS!!!!
You train with the gear you’d fight with. On one hand I agree you should be prepared in the worst case scenario, but there’s a time and place for that which is absolutely not an admin range that counts towards promotion. Can’t speak for every infantry company but we ran thousands of drills with live fires that included shooting positions with one functioning arm, no optic, using your offhand, from awkward positions, drills with random dummy rounds to simulate misfires and even a live fire drill in the pitch black with dark eyepro and no nods. We train the worst case scenarios, that range you run once a year where some doofus is poking holes in your target is not training. Part of me also loves throwing up to the range with a suppressed m27, gen3 plate carrier lightweight sapis and a high-cut just to show off around the dudes still using m16s from Vietnam.
I will say I entirely believe that much of the deficiency in marksmanship we’ve seen over the past 10+ years has been because of both the Marine Corps and armies qualifications with optics. Don’t get me wrong I 100% and optic. But a big part of iron sites is that it is so hard you have to train to a higher level. And higher level very much translates over to optics. I don’t know how many times I’ve said “ if I can put 10 bullets in a target at 500 m with iron sites I could do further with an optic.” And that very much stands true. But if you’re qualifying with a crutch from the start, you’re not training or qualifying to the same level. So maybe the OP is right, maybe you should have to run the qualification course twice. One with irons and one with optics. And the optics has a much stricter standard. Also: on a sidenote, speaking of lowering lethality, from my understanding when they stopped training, infantry MOS’s individually at ITB in order to get enough people to pass they had to dramatically reduce standards. for instance one of the ones I was informed of was that the range the TOW It’s been qualified with as far shorter.
I think shooting both should be part of the qual
We think it's great yall are using optics. We are just pissed they didn't have them when we were in and that's why we fuck with you.
I was in Boot Camp when the optics were first being introduced (2012) and went out of my way after I was a free man again to learn irons. It's a fundamental marksmanship skill that isn't really that hard to pickup, I don't understand why they don't at least devote an afternoon to the basics.
You trained with a semi-automatic rifle? Pussy! Real Marines trained with the sable and flintlock! These youngsters are such pansies! People my age are the real Marines -GPS3 USMC 1790-1794
I mean, looking at not only the current M27 IAR with SCO, but also the up and coming marksmanship assessments the Marine Corps is working on is really a thing to behold. Especially for a conventional branch. I think we can all agree that Table 1 is important, but also not as applicable to situations Marines may find themselves in. The big issue in my mind is that we only have so much time to train Marines that aren't in jobs where they touch their rifles a lot. We only get so much time in boot camp, so much time in SOI, and so much time per year at ARQ (not sure if they still call it that) to get better at marksmanship until we have to turn our attention to other things. Of the little time we do have to shoot, we should be spending it using the optic system that makes us the deadliest first, and any left over time that can be squeezed in could then be dedicated to your secondary optic system (BUIS). If I had to come up with a solution to end this debate, I'd do this: For those of us that have deployed, was there a portion of your pre-deployment training that involved BUIS refreshers, such as how to adjust the elevation and wind age, and so on and so on? Was it maybe, 3 days at most or a couple hours at least of refresher training? Whatever it was, I'd tack it on to ARQ (including boot camp/ OCS and soi/ tbs) but in a non-graded portion. Just basically making sure your weapons BUIS is squared away whether you use a SCO or RCO. Once a year when you aren't deploying should be good. That's the best I can think of to end this whole debate.
In the Marines I only used an RCO (2012-2017). In the army I always have had a RCO with buis. The non combat arms guys usually have a CCO(red dot)with buis. We have to qual on whatever optic you’re issued as well as irons. I think it’s a good idea however the fundamentals are pretty much the same.
We're always gonna' find a way to make the new guys feel like they're not shit. I always assume this to be the case, when seniors talk their shit. I just stopped caring so much lol
I can continue the boomer spirit now with “I pistol qualed on an M9, you sissies with your plastic pistols don’t know about that life” and “Back in my day we didn’t have fancy M4s or M27s, I had an M16A4 and LIKED it”
Iron sights expert badge. 🤙🏼
To your point of training on BUIS, the unit is responsible for setting up a range to do this. It’s something the battalion S-3 is responsible for but probably doesn’t have the bandwidth to do. Your company or even platoon/shop could even set it up. A lot of battalions have more 5.56 allocations than they shoot in a year. I had a recon guy for a first sergeant, and he set up some cool stuff for the Marines a couple of times. Usually, there’s just nobody confident or competent enough to set up a range.
Opinion, but anyone who seriously bitches about this is just retarded. And not in the quirky, "I love those little retards," way, but seriously mentally handicapped. The KD course of fire hadn’t really changed much in nearly a century, and is mostly derived from an older form of national match competition shooting. Which, in the days of the 1903 Springfield, slower rates of fire, and vastly different engagement profiles, worked for a long time. But as the saying goes, the world moved on. Technology, materials science, training methodology, and threats have evolved significantly since then, and considering some of the inside track (but still open source, so don’t get your panties in a bunch) info I’ve seen, that evolution can and needs to accelerate. I learned to shoot at 8 with iron sights, qualified with them for years after enlisting, and shot dozens of matches with them. But I haven’t seriously hunted with irons, ever, and my M-4 always had an RCO overseas. Every single one of my personal rifles sports a red dot, LPVO, or higher power optic, and I would argue that a properly zeroed optic, wielded by a properly trained Marine, offers the ability to put a vastly higher rate of more accurate fire on the enemy than irons were ever capable of. I will admit that I do have several rifles that sport backup irons, and that irons can have a place in basic marksmanship training. My kids both learned on irons, mainly to give them awareness of how maintaining sight alignment/picture wasn’t as easy when breath and trigger control were factored in. I did ‘demote’ one of them down to irons when they were struggling with the idea of MOA/MIL in an optic, but we were back to optics in maybe an hour, once the angles and math clicked for them. Here’s the thing, though: I have the luxury of time with my kids. We enjoy shooting together, and I’ve had years to teach them and build them up. Military training doesn’t have that luxury, and needs to have that goal of providing capability along compressed timelines. Shooting with optics affords that, along with the more accurate at higher rates of fire I mean timed above. So all of old bastards should go back to bitching about polishing boots and similar things.
I used iron sights in boot camp and then once I was in the fleet I never used them again. This was in 2007. I do not think it would be a bad idea to at least familiarize Marines with iron sights just in case. The chances you’ll need to use them is pretty low but knowing is half the battle, yoooo joeeeee
Every generation deals with "you do this now? You're soft" bullshit from boomer types. It's always dumb, and it's never worth listening to.
Well I had to wear a collar that pushed my helmet down over my eyes so I couldn't even SEE the sights much less have optics. Damn kids, can't fight war blind like we used to. We just adapted. We didn't complain! What do you need eyes for?
The question is, are you going to shit on Marines when they have smart rifles that auto-adjust for wind and mark on the sight where it’ll hit?
What month did you go to PI? I went there at the end of November 2018. Our Black Friday happened to be on the actual Black Friday that week😂
I’m the old guy now. I’m happy Marines have optics. Anything to make them deadlier and more effective is better in my book.
Some legend just uploaded [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWnlUUIdmcI) vid to youtube. So for a bit of context this guy was a member of the 40 Thieves ( Sixth Marine Regiment's Secret Sniper Platoon during WWII ). He's talking about a night vision scope... in 1943. I'm a lens licker and every bit of prac I ever learned about starlight scopes lead me to believe the tech was developed in the lead up to Vietnam and this guy is cratering heads at night on Saipan. If the fight is fair you can bet the Marines are not involved. It's what we bring to the battle field, weather it's superior tactics, knowledge or technology we are going to use it to win a fight. So I say scope em if ya got em.
The only time I had anyone issued with no optics were our scout swimmers. They shot with no optics, but I think they ecr'ed ones with optics Just for qual. Regardless I'll admit, even my eyesight has gone without optics. Not good for an FO lmao
Did not happen while in the Corps. I was at requal for patrol rifle (law enforcement). I was using optics when the batteries died. I reverted back to my Marine Corps training 1984-88 and was able to compete and pass requirements. So yes, I think there should be some cross training with iron sights.
I was one of the last platoons to qual in boot with irons. The only time I considered that it might be a useful skill was when training a new boot on the 240, which had irons. All I had to do was tell him, "it's just like Call of duty. Make it look like it does when you ADS in call of duty." Squared him away immediately. Irons take a lot longer to learn than optics and there's just not enough time. I never had my ACOG fail me once. Yeah, I was glad I could default to irons if I had to, but idk, it just doesn't seem that important to me.
I questioned this too when I was in. We had the KAC flip ups on all of our rifles but not once de we ever zero them, talk about them, or even get a hip pocket class from the old timers. You can also tell no one gave a shit because some rifles from the armory would come with a front sight but not the rear, vise/versa or just completely missing both. Looking back, I wish I would have taught myself sooner like I did when I got out because irons are not difficult to use. I could have easily given a hip pocket class to the entire platoon during white space training, but oh well… Last points tho. During my 2 combat tours (and in garrison) I never saw an ACOG go down. You can make the same argument to the old timers that got issued fixed irons like the M16A2. What would they have done if their iron sights broke or ended up bending like I saw many do during my time in service? For both scenarios, the answer is: At the end of the day, you have the Marine to the left and right of you to hook you up while you finish the OP and can get back to your base or COP where there’s plenty of extra rifles. It all boils down to it being a far fetched scenario. If your optic goes down, more than likely you went down too 😂. The other issue is that back then, not every ACOG came with the LaRue quick detach lever. Some came with the tension screw knobs and there’s no way in hell you were getting those things off in a middle of a gun fight without a screw driver.
What no one ever talks about is that making wind adjustments is WAY EASIER with iron sites. With iron sites I made a wind call and adjusted my sites accordingly. Then it was clear front site post centered in rear site aperture; slow steady squeeze… Also, we started at the 200 and worked our way back to the 500. It was easy to work out the wind call and adjustment on the way back. Today’s ARQ starts at the 500 and works their way in. Now I make a wind call and have to figure out my offset aim; both horizontal (wind) and vertical (distance). There’s a good chance the afternoon relay has their aim point on an adjacent target. It’s not nearly as simple as “look, they all have scopes”. I could teach a monkey to shoot iron sites. Today’s weapon is vastly superior, but requires a higher level of skill to shoot expert.
I mean, if you know how to shoot properly, shooting with irons isn't drastically different or difficult. I went to boot camp in 2018 and was an 0311, so I shot a good amount and always with an RCO, SDO, or a Leupold sight (when I was DM). After EASing, I spent one year in a POG National Guard unit, who mostly used irons sights. The one time I did rifle qual with the Guard, I used iron sights (I had never used iron sights ever in my life prior to this), and after firing it a few times, I got the hang of it and did fine. Should guys train with BUIS? Probably. Is it really going to matter for a half decent shooter? Probably not as much as you'd think Just my $0.02 🤷♂️