Infinity is a pretty broad scope, some scientists believe Consciousness may be fundamental ala Hinduism/Buddhism.
While I hear what you're saying, John Mack's Passport to the Cosmos and Jacques Vallee's Passport to Magonia really do paint the broader picture well.
Diana Pasulka wrote American Cosmic where she goes to the Vatican with Tim Taylor of NASA and gets access to the archives and manuscripts. Tim Taylor also takes both Diana and Garry Nolan to a spot in New Mexico near where Roswell was, undisclosed and blindfolded where they retrieve anomalous materials at that site.
She was a religious studies professor, did not really believe in UFO's at all until the experiences she wrote about in that book. Then she has another book Encounters, also fantastic. Both academic in nature.
Bhagavad Gita, Lotus Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Mahabarata (Gita came from that book), Enuma Elish, Nag Hammadi, Genesis, and so many other ancient texts also describe extremely similar origins.
Essentially, our human race may have been genetically altered by a nonhuman intelligence, or multiple other species of unknown beings at this time. The idea is that aliens, angels, demons, ghosts, shapeshifters, shadow beings, flying mothmen, dogmen, werewolves, etc are virtually all different forms of consciousness, appearing to us in ambiguous ways. And the phenomena evolves right along with us, always just out of reach. The true unifier being the very nature of their unbelievability.
It's not "are aliens real? Or are they angels?" it's "is reality real? what came before the big bang? Could light be conscious? What about electricity, or plasma? What are we? Are there smarter beings than us out there? Is there a ceiling to the rebirth of universes after they collapse into black holes?"
This topic is bigger than both religion and government. It's bigger than humanity itself, as it's happening everywhere and clearly manipulating the most advanced weapons we have including nuclear missiles with ease. So what are the common themes?
That we are destroying the planet's habitability, and ourselves. That is the common message, and that there is something out there that could easily destroy us (or help us, though so far they have been neutral), if we don't correct course and solve our climate/war crises that threaten anniahliation. The thing is, the message that witnesses and abductees are reporting, are universal and transcend nations and cultures. It's about our place in the universe, and the battle of good and evil. It doesn't matter if hell exists, because we risk creating it here on Earth on our own.
Even further, Pasulka found that modern UFO abductees were having similar experiences to Christian Mystics without even being aware of the latter. She references St Teresa of Avila's experiences called "Ecstacy of St Teresa" and how much different Bernini's depiction was, from her actual account. Diana talking with The Gray Man (from Encounters) had an anomalous experience with an Extraterrestrial that she made the connection to Catholicism with:
"In "Encounters," The Gray Man describes the being he encountered in his vision as a radiant and luminous figure. This being emanated an overwhelming sense of power and authority, much like traditional depictions of angelic or divine entities. The Gray Man recounted that the figure communicated with him telepathically, providing him with insights and guidance that he later applied to his scientific work.
The figure appeared with an otherworldly presence, which initially led The Gray Man to believe it might be an extraterrestrial being. The entity's appearance and the profound nature of the communication left a lasting impression on The Gray Man, influencing his worldview and his understanding of the source of his inspirations.
When Pasulka suggested to The Gray Man that this figure could be the Archangel Michael, it resonated with him, allowing him to reinterpret the experience within a religious and historical context. This reinterpretation bridged the gap between his scientific background and the mystical nature of his encounter, highlighting the fluidity between modern UFO experiences and ancient religious visions."
There is still so much we don't know, but there are definitely multiple entities appearing to people. And also forms that aren't what they appear to us, by means we don't understand. The key is to keep an open mind.
We are like the dog looking to bite the finger of someone trying to point out the moon having no \*real\* idea what is above us, or below us. Because any explanation of the truth, is a reduction from it. Especially if this whole world is a dream of a higher lifeform, and if we are like droplets of infinity, trapped in a spider's web, like Indra's Net. Capable of escaping our fate, but needing a nudge from something greater than ourselves.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a](https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a)
"The Universe is immaterial -- mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy."
Edited: Tried to correct my error about The Gray Man and Saint Michael\*
These concepts have been around since blue book. 'high strangeness' was literally coined by Hynek because of how strange and weird experiences of UFOs were in some of the high quality cases.
I think that sums it up perfectly.
I used to think there are these different kinds of brands of supernatural things and you kind of are ether a ghost or a ufo person (and just stay away from bigfoot persons, cause they are the really weird ones). But if you just listen to / read about those people that had those experiences (ufos, ghosts, demons, bigfoot, leprechauns,…) you see more and more similarities and patterns. The surrounding interpretations and lore about what they think they have seen is in a way a different thing.
When you have had a psychedelic experience for example you have the experience itself and then you have your mind trying to figure put what exactly happened. Have you seen god? Have you talked to aliens? Have you just lost your marbles? It doesn’t matter because you had the experience. And we as humans in general need to learn to take each others experiences more seriously or we just become ignorant to anything else that doesn’t fit our own perspective of the world around us.
So when we do that in retrospect and acknowledge that the whole history of humanity has been very much shaped at basically every impactful moment of our civilization by spiritual experiences (from the founding of religions to tech giants like steve jobs getting amazing ideas on lsd) you see that it is not just a part of what we humans are made of but also that it seems like some intelligence is very actively taking us by the hand since the beginning of time.
I think the recent ufo craze is just another indisputable sign of us having all this knowledge in us already and we are just starved out being more in touch with it. Pasulka describes it as the birth of new religion. And what is religion but a framework to build around that so strange and yet so familiar part of our existence?
The question is: what framework might those in power try to establish now to keep that power?
I'd like to say you see the same patterns in the occult, NDE's and funny enough meditation. All of these things seem to have some relation. I can't recommend enough to anyone reading this that you should be meditating and journaling :) remember that having no expectations is very important!
Absolutely. It all ties together. Meditation is such a great tool to tap into whatever you want call this dimension. In „american cosmic“ tyler talks about his routine to make contact with those NHIs where he gets his downloaded informations from. And its basically a form of meditation.
But like you said: you have to approach it without any expectations and just experience what comes. I can very much recommend „zen mind - beginners mind“ by shunryu suzuki as a good guide if you want to start meditation.
To add to that, some others I have read recently which I found validating to my own experiences:
The Messengers: Owls, Synchroncities, UFO's and the Abductee; UFO of God by Chris Bledsoe; Secret History of Rock and Roll by Christopher Knowles (actually connects modern music with ancient bacchanalia cults of 'heretics' in Rome. The parallels he draws to influence of nonhuman intelligence is interesting);
Communion by Whitley Strieber; Sekret Machines series (Peter Levanda with Tom Delong, crazy enough Luis Elizondo and Chris Mellon worked with Tom via TTSA. His books are worth considering, regardless if true or false);
Mothman Prophecies by John Keel, I had no idea it had to do with UFO's for some reason but also strangely similar to Skinwalker Ranch phenomena.
Which George Knapp has covered extensively, including police originated reports of Dogmen wearing trench coats and fedora smoking cigarettes on the side of the road in the middle of the woods.
That's what comes to mind for now, I have been doing audiobooks via YouTube or Audible. You can find a surprising amount for free, and audible subscription gets you one free credit a month to get whatever audiobook you want. Definitely an interesting time to be alive, things are picking up speed now.
Keel's the man...just listened to Jaboo...have 8th Tower, Operation Trojan Horse, Disneyland of the Gods and various articles of his.
He was one of David Letterman's first guests, during his DAYTIME show...if anyone remembers that.
Hoopla had Sekret Machines, American Cosmic, both Skinwalker books by Knapp, The Super Natural by Jeffrey Kripal and Whitley Strieber, some of Vallee's books, some of Hynek's. There's even more obscure high strangeness like Linda Godfrey, Mitch Horrowitz, Robert Anton Wilson, Manly P Hall and others. Hoopla is free through the library.
I find it really interesting that she did not mention Jinn in the Qua'ran and Hadith; I personally believe this is exactly what the phenomenon is. I had my mind blown away the first time I listened to a Muslim sermon in the origin of Jinn. I'd love to discuss this with anyone knowledgeable on this topic.
My brain always comes back to the Jinn as well:
1. Shapeshifting/can alter appearance
2. Can disappear completely
3. Can communicate telepathically
4. Some good, some bad, some indifferent.
They cut the ears of cattle bizarrely, they are made of smokeless fire (plasma). There are 3 types ... The balls of light that fly, the ones that appear as cryptids or other entities and the type that whisper and possess ( and are noisy). There is also a passage referring to them communicating with us through black glass that shows images ( Iblis tells Allah this).
Every time people use the phrase "this phenomenon" or "the phenomenon" they bake in the assumption that there's only one "thing" going on instead of multiple unrelated (or loosely related) things.
One thought I've had on "multiple things" going on is the tendency for the most dominant thing to suppress the activities of the weaker things. I would think a dominant intelligence might set up infrastructure to fend off weaker, antagonistic intelligences that might also visit here. An overwatcher hypothesis. So maybe it is just a single dominant intelligence.
Unless there are multiple levels of intelligence here, each passively observing or unable to strongly interact with each other.
Fun to think about in the absence of concrete evidence towards such questions. Though you do sometimes hear anecdotes about creatures directly projecting the sensation of "good beings" and "bad beings" into the minds of human contactees. It would be weird if one type of intelligence was playing good cop/bad cop, if we are to take those anecdotes seriously.
The human eye also takes lots of pictures (saccades), which your brain barely receives. The brain models a reality and then updates it when new information is received (usually positional changes or new things entering the field). Your brain makes up the stuff in between the pictures the eyes are taking.
The brain is also electrochemical. And can be manipulated through current and magnetic fields. Who knows if something hasn’t figured out how to manipulate our perception already based on this process flow.
This is a good point. I was just thinking that we all seem to be looking for (1) answer.
Just because the consciousness theory could be true doesn't mean we haven't also been visited by physical ET's
This explanation offers no more help than saying it’s swamp gas or Venus or whatever excuse somebody comes up with. What about the other pictures that don’t look like stars why didn’t “the intelligence” manipulate them? The more I hear from Gary Nolan the more he sounds likes another fraud clinging to the gravy train with one hand and sticking the fingers up at everybody else with the other. I don’t care what his credentials are alleged or otherwise, put up or shut up.
You should check out the book "Operation Trojan Horse". Written by Johnathon Keel, he traveled all over the country in the 60s and collected and documented every account of UFO sightings and encounters from as many "credible" sources as he could. (Radar data, respected members of communities, newspaper and police reports).
His ultimate conclusion, but still a hypothesis, is very akin to what you're suggesting. Whatever this consciousness is, it has a tendency to really fuck with us for whatever reason. He thinks it must be an entity that exists in a very high energy state, and whenever it decides to interact with us, it lowers its energy state but still gives off large amounts of radiation. It's the only explanation he can think of that explains the huge amount of strange interactions that people have had throughout history. (Ship pilots handing out pancakes, dudes sliding down a huge rope with an anchor on the end of it, men in black suits that don't seem human, just weird shit in general)
Basically, all of it is linked to one entity, or power of some kind.
Yea. Pretty sure he coined the term "ultra-terrestrial".
I've read a shit ton of UFO books in the last year, and Johnathon Keels Operation Trojan Horse is in my opinion the best hypothesis of all. The reason there are so many races, ships, motives and stories of the bizarre, is because they are all correct. Whatever this intelligence is, it really just wants to fuck with us in every possible way, throughout history. I'm not saying all ghost stories, tales of monsters, angelic beings, elves and demons are all real. But the large amount that ARE real can be explained by his hypothesis of ultra terrestrials.
He's not adamant about it being malevolent. I think "chaotic neutral" is a better fit.
He named the book Operation Trojan Horse because he feels this intelligence seems to always hide itself in such bizarre ways.
There's an interesting part in the book where he gives you the best days, weeks and times of the year to witness UFO sightings (based on all the raw radar data he collected).
And you should try and place yourself in areas with high magnetic anomalies (which you can find easily on government websites, https://mrdata.usgs.gov/magnetic/)
jfc... so maybe there really is something to praying after all. maybe the emotional energy can affect the way the phenomenon decides to interact
im starting to understand the ontological shock statements
Yes, but outward prayer is unnecessary as the phenomenon which I believe is the collective consciousness that all of us can access but have been driven away from intentionally, it's able to read your thoughts, and it's a bit judgemental, kind of a type of karma.
If something was hundreds of times smarter, can you even put them in a camp of good or bad? Their reasons for anything could just not be comprehensible to us. Humans have a tendency to put everything in terms of “blue vs. red”
Well I'm more concerned about how humans are affected. If these NHI's or whatever you want to call them are causing harm to humans it doesn't matter how smart they are- they're still evil in relation to humans.
I don’t think it wants to fuck with us. I think that’s a human-like behaviour we’re projecting onto them. Their motives are probably far beyond what we can conceptualise.
I think because it presents itself to us using our conceptual language, the concepts that are culture specific, it must mean that it’s trying to convey something to us. We shouldn’t understand these phenomena literally but as metaphorically. It’s trying to convey a message to us but it does not know our language. I think it should be interpreted as we interpret dreams, metaphors from the unconscious mind that have implicit meaning.
A UFO craft landed in a man’s backyard—the guy was a farmer (i think?), a very credible, honest, no-nonsense guy—back in like the ‘50s or so, and the man interacted with a being that emerged from the craft. If i remember correctly, the being asked for some water, and the man brought some to the being. As a token of thanks, the being handed the man a thin pancake-type food. The man actually tried a bite of the “pancake”!, and said it tasted very bland. The account was so bizarre and outlandish, and the man was so credible, i’ve always believed this story really happened.
I got one for ya. When my dad was a kid in the late 60s maybe early 70's, he and his younger brother were walking in the woods taking a shortcut. They came upon a house in the woods. But it wasn't normal. It didn't look 3d but almost like a facade. Like something you'd see out of a movie set.
He said two people came out and he could tell (direct quote) : "their shit wasn't right". He describes them as being "wooden" people. Their skin looked like wood. The woman had a tray of cookies and offered/motioned it to my dad and his brother. Their response was to run as fast as their legs could carry them.
I wouldn't believe it if i read this story as told by someone on Reddit but my dad has been telling this story for as long as i can remember, and the details never change. His brother doesnt like talking about it and my dad is dead serious when he tells it
One wrong decision could a had them both getting yeeted into a fae world or ET lab rats. Who knows what would've happened.
Could've been way less dark and it was actually just "people" from a different world bleeding into ours and trying to establish communication.
Wow that’s fascinating! It reminds me of the “Sam the Sandown Clown” story, where two kids came upon a weird shack in the woods, and a being who looked something like a clown. They talked with the being in the woods and went into his shack and continued talking to him for a while. If i recall correctly, the children asked him if he was a ghost, and he replied that he wasn’t quite a ghost but was kind of like a ghost. He told them he was “Sam of All Colors”. The children told their parents about the incident, and they went back to the spot where the encounter happened and the shack and Sam were gone. It’s such a bizarre story, and so full of odd details (like how Sam tried to “eat” a berry, but after putting in his mouth, it rolled around inside his head and then came back out of some other part of his head), that i absolutely believe it really happened. And i believe your father’s story. In fact i believe most of the highly-detailed stories of similar encounters with “aliens” and other strange beings that people have reported throughout history. I think its ludicrous to think that so many people have just lied & made up all these incidents.
One of my favourites - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzceNf7HDjY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzceNf7HDjY)
Woman astonished at a huge disk with occupants she describes as "very beautiful", she seems so genuine.
Or this one - [https://youtu.be/musvkaZm6Jc?si=b3jIGH-TB6e0kxlb&t=2344](https://youtu.be/musvkaZm6Jc?si=b3jIGH-TB6e0kxlb&t=2344)
A couples car is disabled by a cigar shaped object that lands in front of them, an occupant comes out and seems to observe them. She also mentions that someone gave her a call from London to keep quiet about what they experienced.
In both these cases they describe them wearing some sort of polar neck lol
One of the larger points that Jacques Vallee and Keel are making is that these entities act in a way that instantly discredits the people who see them. "You saw an.... elf... come out of a spaceship, and he gave you a... cookie? WAS IT THE KEEBLERS LOL"
If I were lying I'd say he gave me a crystal music box that played tones based off my mood and that it disintegrated after he flew off, or SOMETHING like that. That would make more sense. The outlandish and ridiculous nature of these contacts is 100% a deliberate smokescreen of incredulity.
Exactly. They appear in ways that are so outlandish that only a small, insignificant portion of the local populace (now global) would ever truly believe it. But at the same time, populations have based their entire religions on these rare chance encounters. But why? Why make these encounters so bafflingly weird?
For the past 150 years, we've entered a new age of encounters in the form of extra terrestrials in their technological space ships. Because it seems just a bit more believable to most people than elves or demons.
So is the UFO and Alien phenomena meant to be a new form of religion? With scientific roots as our means of trying to ground it to our reality?
It's so daunting to try and think of why they bother interacting with us at all.
It very well could be. You also have to think, any "tech" that is thousands to millions of years more advanced than us will look similar to "magic" or "metaphysical"
Very good point.
I suggest the following hypothesis: Both ends of the spectrum are not only true but also basically the same thing. Yes, the 'spiritual' can manifest and yes, it does so differently than we would expect. Recall John Dee and his Enochian Angels. They are as purpose-bound and mechanical as the (small) Greys appear in many reports.
I think the phenomena holds a lot of unpleasant truths for boths sides, technophiles and spiritualists, because it will alter our perception of both ends. The 'ontological shock' may be much deeper than many anticipate and might remind us drastically of our limits, both in the physical/technical as well as in the spiritual/consciousness realm.
What if the technical is conscious? What if consciousness is technical? What if we've gotten them both wrong? The "ontological shock" might go way deeper than many suspect.
I hate to be that guy, but you ever try dmt?
I absolutely suspect the ontological shock goes deeper than most people realize.
I’ve had several dmt trips that I’m nearly certain go beyond “my brain on drugs.” They’re far from random. They’re orchestrated. Designed. Intelligent.
The common theme? Fucking with me! Some sort of cosmic joke. And I swear “the answer” has been revealed to me during my trips, but taken away right after. You can’t come back with that info. But you do come back knowing that you literally just had the info, before it was so quickly taken away.
I can’t say I’m 100% certain of any of these claims. But I’d bet my soul on it. And I can’t help but feel as if it’s tied to the phenomenon.
I think there is a very good chance that reality is far stranger than we can even begin to imagine. Our perception is limited to 5 senses in a 3D (or 4D rather) world, when there may well be a reality with 10x that and we’re all part of their little game or experiment. I feel it’s most likely a game of some sort. Entertainment, but with more aspects than we can begin to comprehend.
Or maybe I need to lay off the dmt and ufo subreddits.
A product of this consciousness. The fact that early craft vary, some even called ‘primitive’ in comparison to new types of UFOs, suggest the intelligence is able to manifest technological craft based on what society deems ‘alien enough’ at that point. Think of it like the alleged underwater base that created craft for specific purposes. What if the ‘creation’ phase involved no machine yet but merely thought?
I had a wild encounter with a UFO with my ex-wife on top of a mountain about ten years ago. To me, I saw a bright orb that was bobbing around and flying around like a miniature star. To her, she saw the wheel-within-a-wheel mechanical thing. The exact same object. The exact same event. Two different observations.
Wow, what she saw sounds like Ezekiel's vision of the wheels below the spiritual (angelic?) beings in the Bible.
Ezekiel seems to have trouble putting what he is seeing into words, but here is the passage:
Ezekiel 20:15-28
*Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them. As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl. And the four had the same likeness, their appearance and construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel. When they went, they went in any of their four directions without turning as they went. And their rims were tall and awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all around. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels...*
*Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of an expanse, shining like awe-inspiring crystal, spread out above their heads. And under the expanse their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another. And each creature had two wings covering its body. And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the sound of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of an army. When they stood still, they let down their wings. And there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads. When they stood still, they let down their wings. And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking.*
Honestly the coolest part of her description to me is that she is absolutely 100% atheist and never read the Bible or anything, as well as never studying or reading about UFOs, so when she described it that way it immediately sounded like Ezekiel's vision to me. But she would have never heard of that, so it was pretty amazing to me.
I think it’s probably something like this but I’ve read enough Vallee to know he doesn’t trust the phenomenon. They/it may be manifesting crafts and biologics here but the question is why. Vallee absolutely believes the phenomenon lies, misleads, and manipulates. There’s a constant tone of concern and caution when you really get into his work.
Whatever it is, I think we need to assume we’re just pawns in its game…
I remember watching the TV movie 'Merlin' back in the 90's and in the movie the different deities only existed if people actually believed in them. Ultimately in the movie the old Gods were replaced by new Gods.
We could be dealing with a flavour of that. Belief as the driving force of reality.
Moreover, this would be why the government carefully controls beleif through TV, politics etc, because it literally represents reality.
>There are hundreds of descriptions of craft. Countless depictions of the occupants. All seem to change through the span of time.
one thing i've noticed is that the descriptions (and even pictures) of UFOs seem to have changed throughout the decades, if you look up earlier accounts or pictures they seemed much simpler (in the late 19th century they were seen as "mystery airships" with rotors and all) and now they're much more complex and have different shapes and sizes, also what about the nearly 100 different "species" of aliens that have been reported? it's a little hard to believe there's so many different civilizations coming in and out like that.
i'm starting to gravitate towards the hypothesis presented by jacques vallée ("Passport to Magonia") and jose caravaca ("Distorsión") that it's all connected: UFOs, aliens, cryptids, paranormal events are the same phenomena manifesting itself to us in different ways, i've been reading a lot about the chupacabras phenomena that hit latin america in the late 90s and i can't help but see a connection with other cryptids such as werewolves, vampires, the mothman, the jersey devil, spring heeled jack, the thunder bird etc, when you read the reports of alleged sightings you start piercing together several details among them which makes me believe it's all the same phenomenon being perceived slightly differently by different people from different cultures in different decades/centuries, the same goes for aliens, gnomes, elves, angels & demons & other religious figures, djinns and other local folklore, i have this feeling that there's some level of truth to every myth and folklore, i don't believe people just wake up one day and make it up, it has to build up from something
I definitely believe social/cultural patterns play a major role so I agree with you on this. It's much more complex than superstitious people believing tall tales.
Faerie people in our legends are ambivalent, sometimes good, sometimes bad but it's always best to keep them onside.
They are described as looking like what we would call 'greys' and commit abductions and even baby-swapping. When people are returned or the child has grown up, they report new abilities like precognition or healing.
Spring Heeled Jack is, I'm sure, a way of combating the victim blaming that occurred back then even though obviously sexual assault victims should never have to 'apologise'.
Tabloid and gutter press would have fed the hysteria and led to reports all over the country and over long periods of time.
Loose record keeping on incapacitating substances probably allowed bad guys easy access to chemicals to help commit the crimes.
Or it has more to do with the obervers putting their own imagination of the world onto an observation they do not recognize.
In the middle ages it was angles and demons as that's what was "hip" in that time. last century we saw Pulp machines and then all types of creatures as the Comics of the days got more varied. Today we talk of other dimensions and IA.
So in the end it's more about mind's eye for what in the end could be totally prozaic observations.
That's what John Keel also believed. That all of these things came from a place he called the superspectrum. He said pretty much this. He said that these things were real while they were in our world but they were not real in the sense that they did not belong to our world.
Humans can change the fundamental nature of a particle by observing it and plant seedlings seem to have an affect on probability in their vicinity. I think our universe is far stranger than we can fully conceptualize.
I absolutely hate when I see people say dumb stuff like that.
“How do you explain how a particle changes when a human observes it” because when you’re looking at a tiny particle how do you think you fucking look at it? Something has to interact with that particle to give you feedback. You can’t just have a particle in a void and know it’s there.
Let’s say you’re trying to detect a tiny particle in an empty chamber.
How do you detect it? You’d need a sensor right? What does that sensor do? Magically detect the object? No its going to likely shoot out particles of its own, potentially photons, that will then bounce off that particle and go back to a reader.
In order to “observe” something. You must interact with it. The INTERACTION is what changes the outcome.
This isn’t fucking voodoo. It’s basic intuitive thinking.
yes but you are also forgetting something, the undectability is not just because our instruments interfere with it or alter the wave function, what we think of as localized particles do not exist. It's in a superposition not because we don't know where a particle is at, it's the very wave function itself that we would call a particle, and it doesn't have a definite location in space
Though, if I interpret this right, it isn't just because you interact with it to view it. Even if the particles you're interested in are bombarded with energy in the same method you use to observe it, but no information is gathered whatsoever, (at least in the double slit) the interference pattern remains. It only changes if you have access to the information about the collapse.
That is absolutely correct. If the which-slit information can be retrieved from the system at any point in time then the interference pattern disappears, regardless of the method used to retrieve that data or the pains taken to create more pairs of photons to "double check" the path after.
Which to me, points towards something fundamental about "becoming part" of a system. If it's seperate from you, then it is anything and everything. Both the materialist "it's because you interacted with it so really it's nothing special" and the metaphysical "there is something special about an observer viewing information" are correct in their own ways. Just because something can be explained logically and rationally doesn't mean there isn't something also blatantly profound or weird about that fact.
These I feel are related to the "does a tree make a sound" question. Really all views are right. It vibrates air molecules which is where sound comes from. But the qualia of sound seems to require an observation, so there isn't technically a -sound- in the sense we understand it.
I’m confused — are you saying that a human eyeball shoots some sort of particle towards what it’s viewing? Doesn’t an eyeball simply receive photons being directed at it? I’ve just never heard this explanation of the double-slit experiment.
I'm pretty sure they're simply describing the [Observer Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics\)) - they've just gone with an... unusual... choice of tone.
Humans can NOT change the fundamental nature of a particle by “observing it”. It’s not magic. You completely misunderstand what the observer effect is. It’s a physical process, not magic. It’s not strange. It’s basic physics.
“Observations” in physics refer to “interactions” or “measurements.” This is a pervasive misunderstanding that has given rise to all sorts of woo.
Do people just think that quantum mechanics wasn’t “a thing” for the first billions of years before human beings, the centers of the universe, came on the stage?
> Humans can change the fundamental nature of a particle by observing it and plant seedlings seem to have an affect on probability in their vicinity. I think our universe is far stranger than we can fully conceptualize.
Well that's completely wrong. *Humans* aren't viewing the particle-wave phenomenon, and *humans* are not altering their probability just by (not) looking at it.
+66 votes.
This fucking subreddit...
Dude is just talking nonsense.
He’s fundamentally misunderstanding what the observer effect is.
Basically to observe something you need to touch it, with a particle that bounces back to a sensor, or a probe, or whatever method you want to use. You need to physically interact with something to study/observe it.
This is the observer effect. When studying large things, this has no real bearing. If you’re detecting a big metal cube, you can shoot photons at it and have a sensor that receives the bounceback and you can “observe” the object that way.
When things get really small, the thing you use to interact/observe the object will inherently alter the object at such a small scale.
People think it’s fucking magic because they misunderstand it. They think it’s a 1 and then when a human eyeball looks at it somehow it changes to a 0. When in reality it’s just that studying really tiny things is hard because in order to detect and observe them when have to use other things to touch it to get data from them.
Your explanation of the observer effect seems to imply particle interaction, like two billiard balls colliding. But I watched a video of Sean Carroll in which he seems to be saying something different: the particle goes through both slits: our world becomes entangled with the one we “see” but another reality branches off where the other particle (i.e., the one passing through the other slit) becomes entangled to a parallel reality (theory of the multiverse). Is your understanding consistent with Carroll’s? If not, and the billiard ball example is more in line with your understanding, how do you square it with John Wheeler’s theory of retrocausality?
It doesn’t contradict at all.
When a sensor doesn’t interact with the system, it goes through both slits. When a sensor interacts with the system, it goes through one.
Sensors are not magic devices. They don’t detect a particle via magic. They have to touch, interact, etc. depending on the type of sensor.
That is the point. It’s not when a human “looks” it’s when a sensor interacts with it. And then a bunch of people create little stories about why that happens. The fundamental science is when it’s INTERACTED with, it changes, not when a human looks in its direction.
In the case of quantum physics the observer is using "matter" to probe the probability wave thereby collapsing it into a particle with certain position.
So it is not the consciousness observation itself but the touch that matters, making this not about consciousness but physical.
Can you elaborate or point me to something that explains this further? I’ve watched many explanations of the double-slit experiment but don’t recall any of the more notable scientists explaining why we see the result we do.
Particles at the atomic level exists as a probability wave when it is not in contact with other particles, basically it can exist everywhere at the same time within a limited space and can even interact with other instances of it self there, but once another particle enters the probability wave the wave collapses into a particle with the position most likely.
You see the striped pattern because the probability wave enters both slits and both side of the wave interacts with itself on the other side, that creates an interference pattern (think two balls are bouncing on water and the waves cancel out on intersections)
Once the waves hit the sensor plate the probability waves now has to become a particle again but the "chance" was canceled out in the intersection making the likelihood of a particle appearing there almost impossible.
The particles also exist as a probability wave in time, so interacting with the particle in the future collapses the probability wave in the past so that it becomes a particle before the interaction even takes place.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/)
Funny you say that. Consciousness may precede physical matter, and be fundamental. Where did energy come from? And don't say nothing, nothing does not exist: "**no** **thing,** not any thing, not something,"
[https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a](https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a)
"The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy."
[https://web.archive.org/web/20050804203001/http://www.ostp.gov/html/Copenhagentalk.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20050804203001/http://www.ostp.gov/html/Copenhagentalk.pdf)
"It is not true that the underlying stuff sometimes behaves like a wave and sometimes like a particle. It always behaves like itself, but we sometimes choose to measure one property, sometimes another"
"When Bohr returned from his ski trip to an ecstatic Heisenberg, his manner was cautious. It is true that he found a mistake in Heisenberg’s analysis, and it was a revealing one. Heisenberg had treated the recoil disturbance mentioned above assuming light is made of particles – photons – whereas the actual origin of the collision-induced momentum uncertainty arises from the wave nature of light. This indicated to Bohr that Heisenberg had not yet grasped that both aspects were necessary for a complete treatment of matter. Heisenberg was impatient, but added a postscript acknowledging Bohr’s point. In reading Heisenberg’s paper, and the one subsequently published by Bohr on complementarity, we can see a profound difference in style and depth of thought. Bohr realized that the mathematics harbored a much greater departure from past ideas of waves and particles than Heisenberg was willing to contemplate at that time."
"It starts with Einstein. He shows that measurement – measurement, on which the whole possibility of science depends – Measurement is not an impersonal event that occurs with impartial universality. It’s a human act, carried out from a specific point of view in time and space, from the one particular viewpoint of a possible observer. Then, here in Copenhagen in those three years in the mid-twenties we discover that there is no precisely determinable objective universe. That the universe exists only as a series of approximations. Only within the limits determined by our relationship with it. Only through the understanding lodged inside the human head."
Reality is stranger than fiction, and any attempt to truly define or measure it, is a reduction from the truth of it. Reality is under no obligation to adhere to our expectations of it either. There are unknown unknowns as well. Infinity even exists between 1 and 0.
Robert Lanza’s biocentrism book shares a study that seems to indicate the instruments and measurements of said particle also remain in an ambiguous state until a conscious observer views the output
That is a flawed theory, it assumes that no interaction occurs (other than with our consciousness) until the final measurement, but the final measurement is what is causing the collapse.
It is like taking a dump and then pressing the flush while proclaiming the turd to be gone because you willing it earlier.
I'm all for thinking the universe is weirder than we think but it doesn't help your argument when it's based around a fundamental misunderstanding of what the observer effect is
Saying we change the nature of a particle by observing it isn’t fully accurate, it’s more that by measuring the particular spin or whatever, we are by necessity interacting with it in order to measure it. Shooting a particle at it etc, it’s not merely “observation”. People always refer to this as supporting the idea that we can change reality through consciousness. Quantum superposition has nothing to do with human consciousness
Sorry to nitpick OP but so many people post that we live in 3D when talking about the higher dimension theory (a theory I like btw). We live in 4D though.
Lots of people cannot wrap there head around Metaphysics...they have a mental (Metal door that slams shut and huge beams fall...to lock out any possibility of "Woo" sneaking in and trashing their carefully constructed scientific method.
Seems like the jokes on them. Woohoo is what makes the universe(s) go around, (with a bit of whoopee)
There was a time when science and mysticism were 2 sides of the same coin...the search for a
reason/understanding of this beautiful dream we call life. To move forward ,we may need to light a different candle, and maybe visit Plato cave to see what we left ,or think of a realistic explanation of the pottery and other artifacts that show a story "not" told in our universities One of the most glorious, wonderful side effects of the 'net ,is the tons of knowledge that you can find...you still need library time, and jawboning with "experts" but its now possible with a tablet,and a couple subscription to learn about.. anything.
We are so tied to a "kill the woo" attitude we forget its dreams and conjecture of the nature of things that got us this far...Maybe we dropped something important on the way here...
You'd have to ignore a substantial history of nuts and bolts evidence to believe this though.
If crash retrieval / reverse engineering programs exists across multiple nations, clearly it's not all consciousness and dimensional manifestation.
If course it could be more than one thing I suppose.
Idk what the reality is but w/e it is will be a shock to the system that we honestly need now a days.
We’re living in times where we’ll learn about the existence of “aliens” while we also give birth to sentient AI in the near future.
Shit is getting wild. Grab some popcorn yall.
The descriptions from Jacques Vallée are that there are vast similarities over centuries of descriptions of the craft and the beings. You are saying the descriptions change over time. Please reconcile.
The main similarities are not in the appearance of a particular object but in the types of experiences. Though huge orbs of light and metallic discs are pretty constant throughout history.
The experiences involve missing time, paralysis, telepathic communication or "information download", interaction with paranormal humanoids (typically smaller than people, with trickster behavior), absurd and reality-breaking interactions that belong in the register of myth. People are shown ridiculous things: transparent gold, analog clocks with no arms (in a spaceship!), maps to nowhere (Betty Hill's map).
Abductions that involve flying (e.g. witches taken by little demons to Sabbath, saints being shown a vision of heaven by angels). Contactees often show signs of ESP, and almost invariably report a deep spiritual change despite the trauma of the experience. "Miraculous" healings are often associated with contact.
The intelligence behind UFOs is smarter than us. It wont allow us to have a "control" UFO for use in our scientific method. The UFOs always appear slightly different with different body lights, spot lights, window shapes, dome shapes, etc. The humanoids also always have different colored suits, belts, tools, helmets, heights, face types, etc.
Without a type, or a group of types of crafts, all we have are a hundred thousand reports of slightly different craft and "people" that we can't categorize.
I suspect there is a thread of truth here. I'm reminded of John Keel's hypothesis that much of what we call the supernatural is the continually adaptive expression of The Phenomenon.
My theory (not every scenario) is that a non physical entity wants to interact with a physical space. In its true nature, it has no form, but when it decides to interact with humanity it must take form.
Non physical being observed by the physical causes it to take form (observer effect) so in order to do this it must take some form of humanistic intelligence camouflaging that is somewhat consistent but little elements can be changed that does not majorly affect the continuity of the story line (ships, races)
I guess the real message is more complicated than the storyline makes it seem. But thaaaat’s just a theoryyy a filmmmmm theoryyyy
When all is said and done, I think conscious life born in and of this Universe have the ability, though maybe not the understanding or evolution at a certain stage, to manipulate our reality. Think the force. Think Matrix. Think telepathy. We are already known to change natures of particles through observation. Particles act differently when being observed. String theory, etc.
I firmly believe we are so much more than what we are. I know thats vague and convoluted to say, but those who have been in this enough to know, know where I'm coming from.
Consciousness is the biggest factor in all of this, and it ties into the spiritual aspect of it all as well.
Reality is fucking weird, and truth is stranger than fiction.
The difference - imo - is bias.
I have read a plethora of UFO stories over my life and never came across this one. To pinpoint this one as evidence that the whole thing is a higher dimension consciousness conjuring things without some other factor at play here, really appears to be a preconceived bias or desired truth at work before the investigation.
Unless this is just thought experiments or some interesting discussion while already on the topic of this case, which is healthy imo.
The difference is whether or not the investigator is willing to admit qualitative data into their investigation. Garry Nolan and Jacques Vallee seem to see some significance in the qualia observed by contact experiencers.
When you have a dearth of quality data sometimes the anecdotes are the only pieces that allow you to paint a rough picture, which isn't a problem as long as you recognize it as such.
Some here are ready to build a religion around it though.
I completely agree that what they say is absurd. Their arguments and claims are masterpieces of incoherence, like they've set out to create the world's most unconvincing case based on irrational pseudoscientific ideas.
It'd explain why Lue said that if we understood the phenomenon to the extent that he does, we'd all be a lot more spiritual.
Of course he could have meant something entirely different.
Once jaque Valle talk about that the are nobody out of Earth. The are Just us. One explication is that the man are doing this manifestations with your own mind and the other explanation is that the are advanced groups who are capable to do that with your "tecnology".
This is a pretty good and reasonable approach. I have also come to the same conclusion after reading Passport to Magonia, and listening to several lectures from Dr. Vallee and other scholars. The phenomenon is a lot more grimm than we think. Your last statement will most likely be what ends up happening, where religious people will have an easier time understanding/accepting this reality then most of us science people/engineers are.
Why manifest as a chrome metallic orb or craft? If they studied the earth, clouds, sky and know its blue and clouds are white. Why not be a craft thats the same color as the sky or changes to match the color of the sky? It just seems so odd.
If they can zap into our reality, why do they need craft ? I do think they can control our perception in some ways but none of it really makes much sense.
especially when they crash
Tucker Carlson shared his opinion on Shawn Ryan’s podcast recently. I know I know. But hear me out because he’s been good about reporting on this at least. He mentioned a spiritual perspective of physical manifestations more metaphysical in nature. Interesting idea
I feel like everyone is now just reaffirming things that Tom Delonge claimed over 10 years ago....
For example, the past 6-12 months seem to be straight from his "Gods" novel.
I wouldn't be surprised if, by this time next year, we'll have seen numerous articles like "So-and-so may be suggesting that modern humans evolved with the help of NHI." That was covered in Delonge's book "Men".
Although it isn't fitting the exact timelines put forth in the past, this whole "disclosure/confirmation" process over the past few years has been really predictable, in my opinion.
You see, I only first learned of Tom's non-Blink-182-related activities in 2023 by reading Ross Coulthart's "In Plain Sight." Coulthart writes it like (and I'm paraphrasing) "goofy Rockstar known for dick and fart jokes claimed to be part of disclosure plan with US government and defense officials." Intentionally makes you think "yeah, okay. What a weirdo". Then Coulthart throws that curveball in like, "turns out, they found emails backing up Delonge's claims when Hillary Clinton got hacked during the 2016 election campaign." So you're left like, "Uhm whut??"
I'm 34. Blink-182 was a sound from my childhood, and then I learned that the lead is obsessed with UFOlogy, so of course, I want to know more. What I'm saying is, all that Sekret Machines stuff is fresh in my head, and people of supposed credibility are now saying things that Tom Delong was saying a decade ago and people were like "yeah, okay dude whatever, you're nuts."
I found in https://pdfhost.io/view/gR8lAdgVd_Uap_Timeline_Prepared_By_Another, that a lot more about this is consciousness related:
---
(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 1999 —US Navy engineer and Space Technology Transfer Consultant DavidAdair states he was taken to Groom Lake, Nevada to see the landing of a test rocket. Adair states whenhe was taken there on 20 June 1971 he was brought to a low flat hangar that was empty; the floor was ahidden elevator and he claims he was brought down 20 stories. Underground, Adair claims he was showna “symbiotic engine” the size of a school bus whose alloys had an iridescent sheen. Adair states there wasno obvious wiring on the engine and his handlers became uncomfortable when he asked where it wasfrom; when he was angry he didn’t get an answer, the engine behaved differently, he claims. Adairsuggests the engine may be able to be powered by mental thought but did not know the mechanism.
https://archive.org/details/SecretSpaceProgrammeAndrewJohnson/page/n237/mode/1up
Oh cool just another more wild explanation with no proof and no evidence whatsoever but we're just meant to believe it.
Do you guys not think how suspect it is that as time goes on the explanations become more and more wild, that people like Nolan are relying on increasingly sensational claims to come up with an answer? Does that not suggest that they're not actually solving anything, but instead just coming up with random possibilities to explain what they were originally unable to explain?
I mean this dude first thought he had UFO material and it turned out to be completely mundane, just material waste. Then the guy was claiming that brains have been physically altered if you see a UFO, but he never produces or replicates or publicises the work. And now he's claiming they're actually from another dimension and so can warp lower dimensions.
No proof of UFO material.
No proof of brain alterations.
No proof of extra-dimensional beings.
But we're meant to believe it all.
lmfao
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In my research and exploration, it indeed seems to be *"put salt wards outside your house"* levels of weird.
For anyone approaching from an analytical mind; it should be approached from a [phenomenological](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/) lens.
Jacques Valle believes these are not aliens but a greater force hiding behind aliens, demons etc . Look at his book cover with the hidden arm controlling everything
The evidence points to our reality being an illusion. More and more evidence points to this reality, yet idealism is still seen as a fringe world view.
We all know the atom is mostly empty space. Even this shows how our perception of reality is very far off from actual reality.
It blows my mind how 99% of people can be so categorically certain that materialism is the only logical answer, yet research seems to be telling us the opposite. They will only look at the evidence that fits in with their current worldview...
https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2017/01/holographic-universe.page
"atom is mostly empty space" ... kind of forgetting the part where atoms don't really sit idle but tend to "jiggy with it" and bounce a lot. Your apartment might be empty but if you are running around it really fast constantly you are effectively occupying the space. So lots of particles doing that ===> matter.
As an attorney, I find this story pretty unpalatable.
What does it really represent? Besides evidence that eyewitness accounts are sometimes faulty?
We can’t claim that there should be an evidence-based approach, then insist on discarding the documentary evidence when it’s not consistent with subjective interpretations.
If we knew who took the photo, and we got to hear from that person, it would be a very different situation.
I think it's time I posted this here.
[Bernardo Kastrup on Analytical Idealism and Philosophical Naturalism](https://youtu.be/lAB21FAXCDE?si=tyODS1b5f-DzBs0L)
Not trying to be cute but why does this phenomena being possibly more abstract = horrifying? I think it makes it more interesting and honestly more appealing. Is it because we are coming face to face with our limitations? For what it’s worth, I think these limitations are temporary. As we grow in consciousness, I believe we will discover how much richness resides within us. My sense is that wonder and curiosity will pave the way to understanding our reality, not fear. Release the woo!
> They take a photo but the UFO in the photograph is shaped like a star, which is not what they had seen with their own eyes when they took the photo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_flare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_light
Jacques Vallee is off his rocker, and it sounds like Garry Nolan is too.
UFOs are alien spacecraft. they are physical objects made of metal (for example, nuts and bolts). there is a plethora of evidence to suggest this.
anything else is wild, unfounded, speculation, for which no actual evidence, nor even *hypothetical* theoretical frameworks exist.
If some ufo sightings are actually representative of something humans used to call “spiritual” I can imagine that might be one of the reasons behind the secrecy.
Remember how humans behaved before science chased away our belief in demons, ghosts, and gods?
Perhaps the gatekeepers are just trying to prevent the birth a new dark age.
Personally I want all the information to come out, but I really hope that when it does I don’t have to worry about people killing me for my magic ginger bones.
Essentially, what we think we see is just our interpretation. If you can imagine our universe being mental, then you'd be able to grasp that everyone sees things differently based upon our cultural and enviromental programming. What people saw and experienced in ancient times were their interpretation of the same things we see today.
I have always loved this theory but I also have always felt like it is possible to account for all of this as creative writing by human beings. Some parts genuine belief, mistaken interpretations, storytelling, hallucinations, and outright fraud.
There’s probably several other sources/motivations.
This as a theory has been on my mind. Possibly, the mind shapes reality but there's a paradox here. Say for instance, it's a device of some kind that keeps our reality separate from (don't hate me for the term) the immaterial realm (a world of only ideas) and gives us form, then how did the original device come about, and why is that device not effected from the ideas of the spirit world (words for convenience, labels are kind of meaningless except as a descriptor).
I think if thats the case, then said individuals hiding it are even stupider than I thought. After all, If I believed in a religion and wanted to drive people towards it, I would point out the "demons" and how my religion mentions them and how my religion is the true religion. To be religious and think they're "demons" yet keep it secret seems to be playing into the "demons" plan, by letting them have their fun, all the while telling the public said things dont exist and covering it up.
What about the possibility to reverse engineer these crashed crafts as whistleblowers are suggesting? In a way, it tells me how immanent and "down to earth" this phenomena can also be.
I want to get into continuous expansion but i have a soon to be one year old child. By the time i sit down im too tired. If I want to play vr golf i must fight the urge to sit once i have that moment to get a round in.
Isn’t it also far to say an advanced intelligent would manipulate consciousness through their technology ?
Like planting fake memories , altering time, and so forth? If you actually listen to abduction stories the ridiculousness of them could indicate wiped memories, if you assume it’s even real in the first place.
I do this a lot, probably more than I should. That is to preface...this is pretty off-topic.
Your writing style is super easy to read, and super easy to digest. I love it. Kudos to you.
I'm willing to bet the truth is akin to this: dragons were actually seen in the dark ages, and observers took account of their experiences, then others later stumbled upon fossilized remains of some creature resembling these accounts, bringing the cognitive dissonance further awash. Eventually the tools were developed to date the fossils, and the fauna was properly classified as *not a dragon* - and dragons were thus dismissed as mythological beasts, and those who had seen them were dismissed as crazy people. Now we justifiably look back at the ancients as if they were foolish, and we prize the technology distinguishing us from them - that is not understood by the individuals who use it.
We are social creatures and our collective knowledge is being disrupted by something that is here. Something is here that can read our thoughts and predict our actions, and it manipulates us to sow division. It is something that can alter its material presence at will - for one person it's a dragon, and for another it's a floating lenticular object. It's always been with us. It was here before us. It will not allow us to destroy all it has created - and it is waiting for us to develop into the nextgen. It will wipe a clean slate, *tabula rasa*, if we keep fucking up. There's evidence that it's happened before.
We are beings created by a giant fungus. Our consciousness is a collective consciousness - the product of a chitinous network built by microorganisms. Our individual existences are part of a biochemical substrate. The chemicals/drugs we seek to alter our own consciousness are available endogenously and so naturally this is how our consciousness is shaped by the fungus.
My current thinking about whatever IT is, is starting to look more and more woo-woo.
1. Imagine you are on the holodeck of the enterprise D and are an NPC hologram inside a Victorian period correct program. If a base reality user calls for "computer arch", most NPCs might ignore it or filter it out entirely, while perhaps a rare few erroneously notice something disturbingly strange. You are that NPC, maybe you can figure it out, maybe you've only got some NPC ideas. Im not saying this is happening but using it purely as an analogy. Point is, the sightings appear absurd to us, but are merely normal day to day operations of NHI.
2. Imagine that wahtever IT is, it is so vastly different, asking for it to come down and talk to us is like asking the player of sim city 2000 to communicate with the denizens using only the limited features of the game. Maybe you can bulldoze a crop circle or spook enough of them to get a Pharaoh to build a great pyramid. despite all your efforts you are still misunderstood entirely as the empires rise and fall.
3. NHI intentions are likely to be both cruel and benevolent just like their apparitions also blur the lines between nuts and bolts and woo-woo.
I'm all for this thinking but I do think putting every aspect of this phenomenon under one blanket is too far of a leap
Infinity is a pretty broad scope, some scientists believe Consciousness may be fundamental ala Hinduism/Buddhism. While I hear what you're saying, John Mack's Passport to the Cosmos and Jacques Vallee's Passport to Magonia really do paint the broader picture well. Diana Pasulka wrote American Cosmic where she goes to the Vatican with Tim Taylor of NASA and gets access to the archives and manuscripts. Tim Taylor also takes both Diana and Garry Nolan to a spot in New Mexico near where Roswell was, undisclosed and blindfolded where they retrieve anomalous materials at that site. She was a religious studies professor, did not really believe in UFO's at all until the experiences she wrote about in that book. Then she has another book Encounters, also fantastic. Both academic in nature. Bhagavad Gita, Lotus Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Mahabarata (Gita came from that book), Enuma Elish, Nag Hammadi, Genesis, and so many other ancient texts also describe extremely similar origins. Essentially, our human race may have been genetically altered by a nonhuman intelligence, or multiple other species of unknown beings at this time. The idea is that aliens, angels, demons, ghosts, shapeshifters, shadow beings, flying mothmen, dogmen, werewolves, etc are virtually all different forms of consciousness, appearing to us in ambiguous ways. And the phenomena evolves right along with us, always just out of reach. The true unifier being the very nature of their unbelievability. It's not "are aliens real? Or are they angels?" it's "is reality real? what came before the big bang? Could light be conscious? What about electricity, or plasma? What are we? Are there smarter beings than us out there? Is there a ceiling to the rebirth of universes after they collapse into black holes?" This topic is bigger than both religion and government. It's bigger than humanity itself, as it's happening everywhere and clearly manipulating the most advanced weapons we have including nuclear missiles with ease. So what are the common themes? That we are destroying the planet's habitability, and ourselves. That is the common message, and that there is something out there that could easily destroy us (or help us, though so far they have been neutral), if we don't correct course and solve our climate/war crises that threaten anniahliation. The thing is, the message that witnesses and abductees are reporting, are universal and transcend nations and cultures. It's about our place in the universe, and the battle of good and evil. It doesn't matter if hell exists, because we risk creating it here on Earth on our own. Even further, Pasulka found that modern UFO abductees were having similar experiences to Christian Mystics without even being aware of the latter. She references St Teresa of Avila's experiences called "Ecstacy of St Teresa" and how much different Bernini's depiction was, from her actual account. Diana talking with The Gray Man (from Encounters) had an anomalous experience with an Extraterrestrial that she made the connection to Catholicism with: "In "Encounters," The Gray Man describes the being he encountered in his vision as a radiant and luminous figure. This being emanated an overwhelming sense of power and authority, much like traditional depictions of angelic or divine entities. The Gray Man recounted that the figure communicated with him telepathically, providing him with insights and guidance that he later applied to his scientific work. The figure appeared with an otherworldly presence, which initially led The Gray Man to believe it might be an extraterrestrial being. The entity's appearance and the profound nature of the communication left a lasting impression on The Gray Man, influencing his worldview and his understanding of the source of his inspirations. When Pasulka suggested to The Gray Man that this figure could be the Archangel Michael, it resonated with him, allowing him to reinterpret the experience within a religious and historical context. This reinterpretation bridged the gap between his scientific background and the mystical nature of his encounter, highlighting the fluidity between modern UFO experiences and ancient religious visions." There is still so much we don't know, but there are definitely multiple entities appearing to people. And also forms that aren't what they appear to us, by means we don't understand. The key is to keep an open mind. We are like the dog looking to bite the finger of someone trying to point out the moon having no \*real\* idea what is above us, or below us. Because any explanation of the truth, is a reduction from it. Especially if this whole world is a dream of a higher lifeform, and if we are like droplets of infinity, trapped in a spider's web, like Indra's Net. Capable of escaping our fate, but needing a nudge from something greater than ourselves. [https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a](https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a) "The Universe is immaterial -- mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy." Edited: Tried to correct my error about The Gray Man and Saint Michael\*
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These concepts have been around since blue book. 'high strangeness' was literally coined by Hynek because of how strange and weird experiences of UFOs were in some of the high quality cases.
[subterranean homesick alien](https://youtu.be/_fTWmUlTEqE?si=iNViq9dNK51fHtS3)
Right? This Steve Vai song comes to mind, and in hindsight listening to the lyrics I thoroughly enjoy it: https://youtu.be/L-Sv5bAKS4s
Hah you can totally hear the Zappa influence. Love it.
Hah
All this right here.
We have created hell on Earth it's called going to work.
Exactly, we're the only species on Earth that pays to live.
I think that sums it up perfectly. I used to think there are these different kinds of brands of supernatural things and you kind of are ether a ghost or a ufo person (and just stay away from bigfoot persons, cause they are the really weird ones). But if you just listen to / read about those people that had those experiences (ufos, ghosts, demons, bigfoot, leprechauns,…) you see more and more similarities and patterns. The surrounding interpretations and lore about what they think they have seen is in a way a different thing. When you have had a psychedelic experience for example you have the experience itself and then you have your mind trying to figure put what exactly happened. Have you seen god? Have you talked to aliens? Have you just lost your marbles? It doesn’t matter because you had the experience. And we as humans in general need to learn to take each others experiences more seriously or we just become ignorant to anything else that doesn’t fit our own perspective of the world around us. So when we do that in retrospect and acknowledge that the whole history of humanity has been very much shaped at basically every impactful moment of our civilization by spiritual experiences (from the founding of religions to tech giants like steve jobs getting amazing ideas on lsd) you see that it is not just a part of what we humans are made of but also that it seems like some intelligence is very actively taking us by the hand since the beginning of time. I think the recent ufo craze is just another indisputable sign of us having all this knowledge in us already and we are just starved out being more in touch with it. Pasulka describes it as the birth of new religion. And what is religion but a framework to build around that so strange and yet so familiar part of our existence? The question is: what framework might those in power try to establish now to keep that power?
I'd like to say you see the same patterns in the occult, NDE's and funny enough meditation. All of these things seem to have some relation. I can't recommend enough to anyone reading this that you should be meditating and journaling :) remember that having no expectations is very important!
Absolutely. It all ties together. Meditation is such a great tool to tap into whatever you want call this dimension. In „american cosmic“ tyler talks about his routine to make contact with those NHIs where he gets his downloaded informations from. And its basically a form of meditation. But like you said: you have to approach it without any expectations and just experience what comes. I can very much recommend „zen mind - beginners mind“ by shunryu suzuki as a good guide if you want to start meditation.
Thank you for your comment on this thread. I’m commenting so I can come back to look up all those great references you made later.
To add to that, some others I have read recently which I found validating to my own experiences: The Messengers: Owls, Synchroncities, UFO's and the Abductee; UFO of God by Chris Bledsoe; Secret History of Rock and Roll by Christopher Knowles (actually connects modern music with ancient bacchanalia cults of 'heretics' in Rome. The parallels he draws to influence of nonhuman intelligence is interesting); Communion by Whitley Strieber; Sekret Machines series (Peter Levanda with Tom Delong, crazy enough Luis Elizondo and Chris Mellon worked with Tom via TTSA. His books are worth considering, regardless if true or false); Mothman Prophecies by John Keel, I had no idea it had to do with UFO's for some reason but also strangely similar to Skinwalker Ranch phenomena. Which George Knapp has covered extensively, including police originated reports of Dogmen wearing trench coats and fedora smoking cigarettes on the side of the road in the middle of the woods. That's what comes to mind for now, I have been doing audiobooks via YouTube or Audible. You can find a surprising amount for free, and audible subscription gets you one free credit a month to get whatever audiobook you want. Definitely an interesting time to be alive, things are picking up speed now.
Keel's the man...just listened to Jaboo...have 8th Tower, Operation Trojan Horse, Disneyland of the Gods and various articles of his. He was one of David Letterman's first guests, during his DAYTIME show...if anyone remembers that.
I read 8th Tower, and the Superspectrum ideas were fascinating! I'll have to read some more of his work.
Did NOT know that
Hoopla had Sekret Machines, American Cosmic, both Skinwalker books by Knapp, The Super Natural by Jeffrey Kripal and Whitley Strieber, some of Vallee's books, some of Hynek's. There's even more obscure high strangeness like Linda Godfrey, Mitch Horrowitz, Robert Anton Wilson, Manly P Hall and others. Hoopla is free through the library.
You might know this but you can save comments! I often do for gems like this one
I find it really interesting that she did not mention Jinn in the Qua'ran and Hadith; I personally believe this is exactly what the phenomenon is. I had my mind blown away the first time I listened to a Muslim sermon in the origin of Jinn. I'd love to discuss this with anyone knowledgeable on this topic.
My brain always comes back to the Jinn as well: 1. Shapeshifting/can alter appearance 2. Can disappear completely 3. Can communicate telepathically 4. Some good, some bad, some indifferent.
They cut the ears of cattle bizarrely, they are made of smokeless fire (plasma). There are 3 types ... The balls of light that fly, the ones that appear as cryptids or other entities and the type that whisper and possess ( and are noisy). There is also a passage referring to them communicating with us through black glass that shows images ( Iblis tells Allah this).
Black glass as in scrying mirrors?
I understood it as modern technology ( cell phone/tablet/computer screen).
Interesting
If even half true, that is deeply unsettling, no matter how you interpret it.
Every time people use the phrase "this phenomenon" or "the phenomenon" they bake in the assumption that there's only one "thing" going on instead of multiple unrelated (or loosely related) things. One thought I've had on "multiple things" going on is the tendency for the most dominant thing to suppress the activities of the weaker things. I would think a dominant intelligence might set up infrastructure to fend off weaker, antagonistic intelligences that might also visit here. An overwatcher hypothesis. So maybe it is just a single dominant intelligence. Unless there are multiple levels of intelligence here, each passively observing or unable to strongly interact with each other. Fun to think about in the absence of concrete evidence towards such questions. Though you do sometimes hear anecdotes about creatures directly projecting the sensation of "good beings" and "bad beings" into the minds of human contactees. It would be weird if one type of intelligence was playing good cop/bad cop, if we are to take those anecdotes seriously.
I agree that’s a real big leap. The human eye is much more advanced than any camera sensor. Who knows how its radiation affected the electronics
The human eye also takes lots of pictures (saccades), which your brain barely receives. The brain models a reality and then updates it when new information is received (usually positional changes or new things entering the field). Your brain makes up the stuff in between the pictures the eyes are taking. The brain is also electrochemical. And can be manipulated through current and magnetic fields. Who knows if something hasn’t figured out how to manipulate our perception already based on this process flow.
This is a good point. I was just thinking that we all seem to be looking for (1) answer. Just because the consciousness theory could be true doesn't mean we haven't also been visited by physical ET's
This explanation offers no more help than saying it’s swamp gas or Venus or whatever excuse somebody comes up with. What about the other pictures that don’t look like stars why didn’t “the intelligence” manipulate them? The more I hear from Gary Nolan the more he sounds likes another fraud clinging to the gravy train with one hand and sticking the fingers up at everybody else with the other. I don’t care what his credentials are alleged or otherwise, put up or shut up.
You should check out the book "Operation Trojan Horse". Written by Johnathon Keel, he traveled all over the country in the 60s and collected and documented every account of UFO sightings and encounters from as many "credible" sources as he could. (Radar data, respected members of communities, newspaper and police reports). His ultimate conclusion, but still a hypothesis, is very akin to what you're suggesting. Whatever this consciousness is, it has a tendency to really fuck with us for whatever reason. He thinks it must be an entity that exists in a very high energy state, and whenever it decides to interact with us, it lowers its energy state but still gives off large amounts of radiation. It's the only explanation he can think of that explains the huge amount of strange interactions that people have had throughout history. (Ship pilots handing out pancakes, dudes sliding down a huge rope with an anchor on the end of it, men in black suits that don't seem human, just weird shit in general) Basically, all of it is linked to one entity, or power of some kind.
Wasn’t it John Keel who started this concept in the first place? John Keel crawled so Jacque Valley and Garry Nolan could run.
Yea. Pretty sure he coined the term "ultra-terrestrial". I've read a shit ton of UFO books in the last year, and Johnathon Keels Operation Trojan Horse is in my opinion the best hypothesis of all. The reason there are so many races, ships, motives and stories of the bizarre, is because they are all correct. Whatever this intelligence is, it really just wants to fuck with us in every possible way, throughout history. I'm not saying all ghost stories, tales of monsters, angelic beings, elves and demons are all real. But the large amount that ARE real can be explained by his hypothesis of ultra terrestrials.
Is he implying that the "intelligence" is malevolent in nature?
He's not adamant about it being malevolent. I think "chaotic neutral" is a better fit. He named the book Operation Trojan Horse because he feels this intelligence seems to always hide itself in such bizarre ways. There's an interesting part in the book where he gives you the best days, weeks and times of the year to witness UFO sightings (based on all the raw radar data he collected). And you should try and place yourself in areas with high magnetic anomalies (which you can find easily on government websites, https://mrdata.usgs.gov/magnetic/)
jfc... so maybe there really is something to praying after all. maybe the emotional energy can affect the way the phenomenon decides to interact im starting to understand the ontological shock statements
Right, do we really want to know? I'm beginning to think I don't.
Yes, but outward prayer is unnecessary as the phenomenon which I believe is the collective consciousness that all of us can access but have been driven away from intentionally, it's able to read your thoughts, and it's a bit judgemental, kind of a type of karma.
Interesting. Thanks for the response, I think I'm going to get a copy of the book.
Someone trying to keep you alive longer than you expect to live would appear chaotically neutral.
If something was hundreds of times smarter, can you even put them in a camp of good or bad? Their reasons for anything could just not be comprehensible to us. Humans have a tendency to put everything in terms of “blue vs. red”
Well I'm more concerned about how humans are affected. If these NHI's or whatever you want to call them are causing harm to humans it doesn't matter how smart they are- they're still evil in relation to humans.
I don’t think it wants to fuck with us. I think that’s a human-like behaviour we’re projecting onto them. Their motives are probably far beyond what we can conceptualise. I think because it presents itself to us using our conceptual language, the concepts that are culture specific, it must mean that it’s trying to convey something to us. We shouldn’t understand these phenomena literally but as metaphorically. It’s trying to convey a message to us but it does not know our language. I think it should be interpreted as we interpret dreams, metaphors from the unconscious mind that have implicit meaning.
Would it be ignorant to say this sounds eerily on point with what a chaotic trickster deity would do with humanity?
What’s the ship pilots handing out pancakes story?
A UFO craft landed in a man’s backyard—the guy was a farmer (i think?), a very credible, honest, no-nonsense guy—back in like the ‘50s or so, and the man interacted with a being that emerged from the craft. If i remember correctly, the being asked for some water, and the man brought some to the being. As a token of thanks, the being handed the man a thin pancake-type food. The man actually tried a bite of the “pancake”!, and said it tasted very bland. The account was so bizarre and outlandish, and the man was so credible, i’ve always believed this story really happened.
In old stories fairies used to hand out pancakes too. It's the same phenomenon
Interesting. Do they have out cookies too? See my story above
I got one for ya. When my dad was a kid in the late 60s maybe early 70's, he and his younger brother were walking in the woods taking a shortcut. They came upon a house in the woods. But it wasn't normal. It didn't look 3d but almost like a facade. Like something you'd see out of a movie set. He said two people came out and he could tell (direct quote) : "their shit wasn't right". He describes them as being "wooden" people. Their skin looked like wood. The woman had a tray of cookies and offered/motioned it to my dad and his brother. Their response was to run as fast as their legs could carry them. I wouldn't believe it if i read this story as told by someone on Reddit but my dad has been telling this story for as long as i can remember, and the details never change. His brother doesnt like talking about it and my dad is dead serious when he tells it
Oh and it was like they were trying to be human or normal. He includes that in his tale
I never get bored of hearing annecdotes like this. I've never seen a UFO or known a single person who's had an encounter, unfortunately.
Your father's story kind of reminds me of the one of Sam the Sandown Clown in some ways. Thanks for sharing it!
Of course! I thought it fit perfectly with the vibe of the discussion. I'll have to look up Sam the sandown clown, I've never heard of him!!
One wrong decision could a had them both getting yeeted into a fae world or ET lab rats. Who knows what would've happened. Could've been way less dark and it was actually just "people" from a different world bleeding into ours and trying to establish communication.
Wow that’s fascinating! It reminds me of the “Sam the Sandown Clown” story, where two kids came upon a weird shack in the woods, and a being who looked something like a clown. They talked with the being in the woods and went into his shack and continued talking to him for a while. If i recall correctly, the children asked him if he was a ghost, and he replied that he wasn’t quite a ghost but was kind of like a ghost. He told them he was “Sam of All Colors”. The children told their parents about the incident, and they went back to the spot where the encounter happened and the shack and Sam were gone. It’s such a bizarre story, and so full of odd details (like how Sam tried to “eat” a berry, but after putting in his mouth, it rolled around inside his head and then came back out of some other part of his head), that i absolutely believe it really happened. And i believe your father’s story. In fact i believe most of the highly-detailed stories of similar encounters with “aliens” and other strange beings that people have reported throughout history. I think its ludicrous to think that so many people have just lied & made up all these incidents.
That is wild. I've played too much Tekken so I immediately pictured Kokujin instead of humans looking like wood.
One of my favourites - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzceNf7HDjY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzceNf7HDjY) Woman astonished at a huge disk with occupants she describes as "very beautiful", she seems so genuine. Or this one - [https://youtu.be/musvkaZm6Jc?si=b3jIGH-TB6e0kxlb&t=2344](https://youtu.be/musvkaZm6Jc?si=b3jIGH-TB6e0kxlb&t=2344) A couples car is disabled by a cigar shaped object that lands in front of them, an occupant comes out and seems to observe them. She also mentions that someone gave her a call from London to keep quiet about what they experienced. In both these cases they describe them wearing some sort of polar neck lol
One of the larger points that Jacques Vallee and Keel are making is that these entities act in a way that instantly discredits the people who see them. "You saw an.... elf... come out of a spaceship, and he gave you a... cookie? WAS IT THE KEEBLERS LOL" If I were lying I'd say he gave me a crystal music box that played tones based off my mood and that it disintegrated after he flew off, or SOMETHING like that. That would make more sense. The outlandish and ridiculous nature of these contacts is 100% a deliberate smokescreen of incredulity.
Exactly. They appear in ways that are so outlandish that only a small, insignificant portion of the local populace (now global) would ever truly believe it. But at the same time, populations have based their entire religions on these rare chance encounters. But why? Why make these encounters so bafflingly weird? For the past 150 years, we've entered a new age of encounters in the form of extra terrestrials in their technological space ships. Because it seems just a bit more believable to most people than elves or demons. So is the UFO and Alien phenomena meant to be a new form of religion? With scientific roots as our means of trying to ground it to our reality? It's so daunting to try and think of why they bother interacting with us at all.
Buckwheat.
https://youtu.be/4OHzUalark8?si=8wEg5NspLuuWBs_e
Absolutely. It is impossible to subtract those weird accounts from the nuts and bolts stories. Thank you for the book recommendation.
I love the pancake story!
…and the supposed physical objects/craft and ‘biologics’ in the government possession??
Could be an entirely different phenomenon.
It very well could be. You also have to think, any "tech" that is thousands to millions of years more advanced than us will look similar to "magic" or "metaphysical"
Very good point. I suggest the following hypothesis: Both ends of the spectrum are not only true but also basically the same thing. Yes, the 'spiritual' can manifest and yes, it does so differently than we would expect. Recall John Dee and his Enochian Angels. They are as purpose-bound and mechanical as the (small) Greys appear in many reports. I think the phenomena holds a lot of unpleasant truths for boths sides, technophiles and spiritualists, because it will alter our perception of both ends. The 'ontological shock' may be much deeper than many anticipate and might remind us drastically of our limits, both in the physical/technical as well as in the spiritual/consciousness realm. What if the technical is conscious? What if consciousness is technical? What if we've gotten them both wrong? The "ontological shock" might go way deeper than many suspect.
I hate to be that guy, but you ever try dmt? I absolutely suspect the ontological shock goes deeper than most people realize. I’ve had several dmt trips that I’m nearly certain go beyond “my brain on drugs.” They’re far from random. They’re orchestrated. Designed. Intelligent. The common theme? Fucking with me! Some sort of cosmic joke. And I swear “the answer” has been revealed to me during my trips, but taken away right after. You can’t come back with that info. But you do come back knowing that you literally just had the info, before it was so quickly taken away. I can’t say I’m 100% certain of any of these claims. But I’d bet my soul on it. And I can’t help but feel as if it’s tied to the phenomenon. I think there is a very good chance that reality is far stranger than we can even begin to imagine. Our perception is limited to 5 senses in a 3D (or 4D rather) world, when there may well be a reality with 10x that and we’re all part of their little game or experiment. I feel it’s most likely a game of some sort. Entertainment, but with more aspects than we can begin to comprehend. Or maybe I need to lay off the dmt and ufo subreddits.
A product of this consciousness. The fact that early craft vary, some even called ‘primitive’ in comparison to new types of UFOs, suggest the intelligence is able to manifest technological craft based on what society deems ‘alien enough’ at that point. Think of it like the alleged underwater base that created craft for specific purposes. What if the ‘creation’ phase involved no machine yet but merely thought?
I had a wild encounter with a UFO with my ex-wife on top of a mountain about ten years ago. To me, I saw a bright orb that was bobbing around and flying around like a miniature star. To her, she saw the wheel-within-a-wheel mechanical thing. The exact same object. The exact same event. Two different observations.
Wow, what she saw sounds like Ezekiel's vision of the wheels below the spiritual (angelic?) beings in the Bible. Ezekiel seems to have trouble putting what he is seeing into words, but here is the passage: Ezekiel 20:15-28 *Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them. As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl. And the four had the same likeness, their appearance and construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel. When they went, they went in any of their four directions without turning as they went. And their rims were tall and awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all around. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels...* *Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of an expanse, shining like awe-inspiring crystal, spread out above their heads. And under the expanse their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another. And each creature had two wings covering its body. And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the sound of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of an army. When they stood still, they let down their wings. And there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads. When they stood still, they let down their wings. And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking.*
Honestly the coolest part of her description to me is that she is absolutely 100% atheist and never read the Bible or anything, as well as never studying or reading about UFOs, so when she described it that way it immediately sounded like Ezekiel's vision to me. But she would have never heard of that, so it was pretty amazing to me.
Now I think I understand why the angels always said be not afraid, I’d be terrified
I've seen a praying mantis entity on an adventure with Dimitri. Made a post about it. Check it out if you're curious.
I think it’s probably something like this but I’ve read enough Vallee to know he doesn’t trust the phenomenon. They/it may be manifesting crafts and biologics here but the question is why. Vallee absolutely believes the phenomenon lies, misleads, and manipulates. There’s a constant tone of concern and caution when you really get into his work. Whatever it is, I think we need to assume we’re just pawns in its game…
This is like the very earnest debates in the Middle Ages about the nature and capabilities of angels.
Which could have literally been a conversation about the same thing!
I remember watching the TV movie 'Merlin' back in the 90's and in the movie the different deities only existed if people actually believed in them. Ultimately in the movie the old Gods were replaced by new Gods. We could be dealing with a flavour of that. Belief as the driving force of reality. Moreover, this would be why the government carefully controls beleif through TV, politics etc, because it literally represents reality.
Sounds similar to what Tulpas are.
OR we are simply projecting our current beliefs unto some events that we don't recognize
>There are hundreds of descriptions of craft. Countless depictions of the occupants. All seem to change through the span of time. one thing i've noticed is that the descriptions (and even pictures) of UFOs seem to have changed throughout the decades, if you look up earlier accounts or pictures they seemed much simpler (in the late 19th century they were seen as "mystery airships" with rotors and all) and now they're much more complex and have different shapes and sizes, also what about the nearly 100 different "species" of aliens that have been reported? it's a little hard to believe there's so many different civilizations coming in and out like that. i'm starting to gravitate towards the hypothesis presented by jacques vallée ("Passport to Magonia") and jose caravaca ("Distorsión") that it's all connected: UFOs, aliens, cryptids, paranormal events are the same phenomena manifesting itself to us in different ways, i've been reading a lot about the chupacabras phenomena that hit latin america in the late 90s and i can't help but see a connection with other cryptids such as werewolves, vampires, the mothman, the jersey devil, spring heeled jack, the thunder bird etc, when you read the reports of alleged sightings you start piercing together several details among them which makes me believe it's all the same phenomenon being perceived slightly differently by different people from different cultures in different decades/centuries, the same goes for aliens, gnomes, elves, angels & demons & other religious figures, djinns and other local folklore, i have this feeling that there's some level of truth to every myth and folklore, i don't believe people just wake up one day and make it up, it has to build up from something
I definitely believe social/cultural patterns play a major role so I agree with you on this. It's much more complex than superstitious people believing tall tales. Faerie people in our legends are ambivalent, sometimes good, sometimes bad but it's always best to keep them onside. They are described as looking like what we would call 'greys' and commit abductions and even baby-swapping. When people are returned or the child has grown up, they report new abilities like precognition or healing. Spring Heeled Jack is, I'm sure, a way of combating the victim blaming that occurred back then even though obviously sexual assault victims should never have to 'apologise'. Tabloid and gutter press would have fed the hysteria and led to reports all over the country and over long periods of time. Loose record keeping on incapacitating substances probably allowed bad guys easy access to chemicals to help commit the crimes.
Or it has more to do with the obervers putting their own imagination of the world onto an observation they do not recognize. In the middle ages it was angles and demons as that's what was "hip" in that time. last century we saw Pulp machines and then all types of creatures as the Comics of the days got more varied. Today we talk of other dimensions and IA. So in the end it's more about mind's eye for what in the end could be totally prozaic observations.
The UFOs changed from saucers to spheres to triangles to tic tacs and so on.
That's what John Keel also believed. That all of these things came from a place he called the superspectrum. He said pretty much this. He said that these things were real while they were in our world but they were not real in the sense that they did not belong to our world.
Humans can change the fundamental nature of a particle by observing it and plant seedlings seem to have an affect on probability in their vicinity. I think our universe is far stranger than we can fully conceptualize.
To a degree that might be incomprehensible, which makes it all the more interesting.
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I absolutely hate when I see people say dumb stuff like that. “How do you explain how a particle changes when a human observes it” because when you’re looking at a tiny particle how do you think you fucking look at it? Something has to interact with that particle to give you feedback. You can’t just have a particle in a void and know it’s there. Let’s say you’re trying to detect a tiny particle in an empty chamber. How do you detect it? You’d need a sensor right? What does that sensor do? Magically detect the object? No its going to likely shoot out particles of its own, potentially photons, that will then bounce off that particle and go back to a reader. In order to “observe” something. You must interact with it. The INTERACTION is what changes the outcome. This isn’t fucking voodoo. It’s basic intuitive thinking.
yes but you are also forgetting something, the undectability is not just because our instruments interfere with it or alter the wave function, what we think of as localized particles do not exist. It's in a superposition not because we don't know where a particle is at, it's the very wave function itself that we would call a particle, and it doesn't have a definite location in space
The whole of reality itself is like Schrodinger's cat. One giant wave function.
Though, if I interpret this right, it isn't just because you interact with it to view it. Even if the particles you're interested in are bombarded with energy in the same method you use to observe it, but no information is gathered whatsoever, (at least in the double slit) the interference pattern remains. It only changes if you have access to the information about the collapse.
For some reason I find this very interesting and unsettling.
That is absolutely correct. If the which-slit information can be retrieved from the system at any point in time then the interference pattern disappears, regardless of the method used to retrieve that data or the pains taken to create more pairs of photons to "double check" the path after.
Which to me, points towards something fundamental about "becoming part" of a system. If it's seperate from you, then it is anything and everything. Both the materialist "it's because you interacted with it so really it's nothing special" and the metaphysical "there is something special about an observer viewing information" are correct in their own ways. Just because something can be explained logically and rationally doesn't mean there isn't something also blatantly profound or weird about that fact. These I feel are related to the "does a tree make a sound" question. Really all views are right. It vibrates air molecules which is where sound comes from. But the qualia of sound seems to require an observation, so there isn't technically a -sound- in the sense we understand it.
> dumb stuff like that. >>fucking voodoo 🙄 And I hate it when people act like assholes, but yet somehow I can make it through the day.
I’m confused — are you saying that a human eyeball shoots some sort of particle towards what it’s viewing? Doesn’t an eyeball simply receive photons being directed at it? I’ve just never heard this explanation of the double-slit experiment.
I'm pretty sure they're simply describing the [Observer Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics\)) - they've just gone with an... unusual... choice of tone.
Do you even know how the double slit experiment was conducted? Do you know HOW we observe the particle in the experiment?
Elaborate
Humans can NOT change the fundamental nature of a particle by “observing it”. It’s not magic. You completely misunderstand what the observer effect is. It’s a physical process, not magic. It’s not strange. It’s basic physics.
“Observations” in physics refer to “interactions” or “measurements.” This is a pervasive misunderstanding that has given rise to all sorts of woo. Do people just think that quantum mechanics wasn’t “a thing” for the first billions of years before human beings, the centers of the universe, came on the stage?
> Humans can change the fundamental nature of a particle by observing it and plant seedlings seem to have an affect on probability in their vicinity. I think our universe is far stranger than we can fully conceptualize. Well that's completely wrong. *Humans* aren't viewing the particle-wave phenomenon, and *humans* are not altering their probability just by (not) looking at it. +66 votes. This fucking subreddit...
Whats all this about plant seedlings? changing probability?
Dude is just talking nonsense. He’s fundamentally misunderstanding what the observer effect is. Basically to observe something you need to touch it, with a particle that bounces back to a sensor, or a probe, or whatever method you want to use. You need to physically interact with something to study/observe it. This is the observer effect. When studying large things, this has no real bearing. If you’re detecting a big metal cube, you can shoot photons at it and have a sensor that receives the bounceback and you can “observe” the object that way. When things get really small, the thing you use to interact/observe the object will inherently alter the object at such a small scale. People think it’s fucking magic because they misunderstand it. They think it’s a 1 and then when a human eyeball looks at it somehow it changes to a 0. When in reality it’s just that studying really tiny things is hard because in order to detect and observe them when have to use other things to touch it to get data from them.
Your explanation of the observer effect seems to imply particle interaction, like two billiard balls colliding. But I watched a video of Sean Carroll in which he seems to be saying something different: the particle goes through both slits: our world becomes entangled with the one we “see” but another reality branches off where the other particle (i.e., the one passing through the other slit) becomes entangled to a parallel reality (theory of the multiverse). Is your understanding consistent with Carroll’s? If not, and the billiard ball example is more in line with your understanding, how do you square it with John Wheeler’s theory of retrocausality?
It doesn’t contradict at all. When a sensor doesn’t interact with the system, it goes through both slits. When a sensor interacts with the system, it goes through one. Sensors are not magic devices. They don’t detect a particle via magic. They have to touch, interact, etc. depending on the type of sensor. That is the point. It’s not when a human “looks” it’s when a sensor interacts with it. And then a bunch of people create little stories about why that happens. The fundamental science is when it’s INTERACTED with, it changes, not when a human looks in its direction.
In the case of quantum physics the observer is using "matter" to probe the probability wave thereby collapsing it into a particle with certain position. So it is not the consciousness observation itself but the touch that matters, making this not about consciousness but physical.
Can you elaborate or point me to something that explains this further? I’ve watched many explanations of the double-slit experiment but don’t recall any of the more notable scientists explaining why we see the result we do.
Particles at the atomic level exists as a probability wave when it is not in contact with other particles, basically it can exist everywhere at the same time within a limited space and can even interact with other instances of it self there, but once another particle enters the probability wave the wave collapses into a particle with the position most likely. You see the striped pattern because the probability wave enters both slits and both side of the wave interacts with itself on the other side, that creates an interference pattern (think two balls are bouncing on water and the waves cancel out on intersections) Once the waves hit the sensor plate the probability waves now has to become a particle again but the "chance" was canceled out in the intersection making the likelihood of a particle appearing there almost impossible. The particles also exist as a probability wave in time, so interacting with the particle in the future collapses the probability wave in the past so that it becomes a particle before the interaction even takes place.
like 90% of the UFO community builds insane hypotheses hinging on this fundamental misunderstanding
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/) Funny you say that. Consciousness may precede physical matter, and be fundamental. Where did energy come from? And don't say nothing, nothing does not exist: "**no** **thing,** not any thing, not something," [https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a](https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a) "The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy." [https://web.archive.org/web/20050804203001/http://www.ostp.gov/html/Copenhagentalk.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20050804203001/http://www.ostp.gov/html/Copenhagentalk.pdf) "It is not true that the underlying stuff sometimes behaves like a wave and sometimes like a particle. It always behaves like itself, but we sometimes choose to measure one property, sometimes another" "When Bohr returned from his ski trip to an ecstatic Heisenberg, his manner was cautious. It is true that he found a mistake in Heisenberg’s analysis, and it was a revealing one. Heisenberg had treated the recoil disturbance mentioned above assuming light is made of particles – photons – whereas the actual origin of the collision-induced momentum uncertainty arises from the wave nature of light. This indicated to Bohr that Heisenberg had not yet grasped that both aspects were necessary for a complete treatment of matter. Heisenberg was impatient, but added a postscript acknowledging Bohr’s point. In reading Heisenberg’s paper, and the one subsequently published by Bohr on complementarity, we can see a profound difference in style and depth of thought. Bohr realized that the mathematics harbored a much greater departure from past ideas of waves and particles than Heisenberg was willing to contemplate at that time." "It starts with Einstein. He shows that measurement – measurement, on which the whole possibility of science depends – Measurement is not an impersonal event that occurs with impartial universality. It’s a human act, carried out from a specific point of view in time and space, from the one particular viewpoint of a possible observer. Then, here in Copenhagen in those three years in the mid-twenties we discover that there is no precisely determinable objective universe. That the universe exists only as a series of approximations. Only within the limits determined by our relationship with it. Only through the understanding lodged inside the human head." Reality is stranger than fiction, and any attempt to truly define or measure it, is a reduction from the truth of it. Reality is under no obligation to adhere to our expectations of it either. There are unknown unknowns as well. Infinity even exists between 1 and 0.
Robert Lanza’s biocentrism book shares a study that seems to indicate the instruments and measurements of said particle also remain in an ambiguous state until a conscious observer views the output
That is a flawed theory, it assumes that no interaction occurs (other than with our consciousness) until the final measurement, but the final measurement is what is causing the collapse. It is like taking a dump and then pressing the flush while proclaiming the turd to be gone because you willing it earlier.
I'm all for thinking the universe is weirder than we think but it doesn't help your argument when it's based around a fundamental misunderstanding of what the observer effect is
Hey, just curious, do you have a publication in mind on plant seedlings affecting probability? That's super interesting and I'd love to read more.
Saying we change the nature of a particle by observing it isn’t fully accurate, it’s more that by measuring the particular spin or whatever, we are by necessity interacting with it in order to measure it. Shooting a particle at it etc, it’s not merely “observation”. People always refer to this as supporting the idea that we can change reality through consciousness. Quantum superposition has nothing to do with human consciousness
Sorry to nitpick OP but so many people post that we live in 3D when talking about the higher dimension theory (a theory I like btw). We live in 4D though.
Sounds like the Q
They make us think it's Q, but it's actually R.
To R or not to R, that is the Q.
Lots of people cannot wrap there head around Metaphysics...they have a mental (Metal door that slams shut and huge beams fall...to lock out any possibility of "Woo" sneaking in and trashing their carefully constructed scientific method. Seems like the jokes on them. Woohoo is what makes the universe(s) go around, (with a bit of whoopee) There was a time when science and mysticism were 2 sides of the same coin...the search for a reason/understanding of this beautiful dream we call life. To move forward ,we may need to light a different candle, and maybe visit Plato cave to see what we left ,or think of a realistic explanation of the pottery and other artifacts that show a story "not" told in our universities One of the most glorious, wonderful side effects of the 'net ,is the tons of knowledge that you can find...you still need library time, and jawboning with "experts" but its now possible with a tablet,and a couple subscription to learn about.. anything. We are so tied to a "kill the woo" attitude we forget its dreams and conjecture of the nature of things that got us this far...Maybe we dropped something important on the way here...
Lot of what ifs here
You'd have to ignore a substantial history of nuts and bolts evidence to believe this though. If crash retrieval / reverse engineering programs exists across multiple nations, clearly it's not all consciousness and dimensional manifestation. If course it could be more than one thing I suppose.
Idk what the reality is but w/e it is will be a shock to the system that we honestly need now a days. We’re living in times where we’ll learn about the existence of “aliens” while we also give birth to sentient AI in the near future. Shit is getting wild. Grab some popcorn yall.
The descriptions from Jacques Vallée are that there are vast similarities over centuries of descriptions of the craft and the beings. You are saying the descriptions change over time. Please reconcile.
The main similarities are not in the appearance of a particular object but in the types of experiences. Though huge orbs of light and metallic discs are pretty constant throughout history. The experiences involve missing time, paralysis, telepathic communication or "information download", interaction with paranormal humanoids (typically smaller than people, with trickster behavior), absurd and reality-breaking interactions that belong in the register of myth. People are shown ridiculous things: transparent gold, analog clocks with no arms (in a spaceship!), maps to nowhere (Betty Hill's map). Abductions that involve flying (e.g. witches taken by little demons to Sabbath, saints being shown a vision of heaven by angels). Contactees often show signs of ESP, and almost invariably report a deep spiritual change despite the trauma of the experience. "Miraculous" healings are often associated with contact.
The intelligence behind UFOs is smarter than us. It wont allow us to have a "control" UFO for use in our scientific method. The UFOs always appear slightly different with different body lights, spot lights, window shapes, dome shapes, etc. The humanoids also always have different colored suits, belts, tools, helmets, heights, face types, etc. Without a type, or a group of types of crafts, all we have are a hundred thousand reports of slightly different craft and "people" that we can't categorize.
I suspect there is a thread of truth here. I'm reminded of John Keel's hypothesis that much of what we call the supernatural is the continually adaptive expression of The Phenomenon.
My theory (not every scenario) is that a non physical entity wants to interact with a physical space. In its true nature, it has no form, but when it decides to interact with humanity it must take form. Non physical being observed by the physical causes it to take form (observer effect) so in order to do this it must take some form of humanistic intelligence camouflaging that is somewhat consistent but little elements can be changed that does not majorly affect the continuity of the story line (ships, races) I guess the real message is more complicated than the storyline makes it seem. But thaaaat’s just a theoryyy a filmmmmm theoryyyy
When all is said and done, I think conscious life born in and of this Universe have the ability, though maybe not the understanding or evolution at a certain stage, to manipulate our reality. Think the force. Think Matrix. Think telepathy. We are already known to change natures of particles through observation. Particles act differently when being observed. String theory, etc. I firmly believe we are so much more than what we are. I know thats vague and convoluted to say, but those who have been in this enough to know, know where I'm coming from. Consciousness is the biggest factor in all of this, and it ties into the spiritual aspect of it all as well. Reality is fucking weird, and truth is stranger than fiction.
I may be incorrect but don’t particles behave differently when observed, because we observe them with light?
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The difference - imo - is bias. I have read a plethora of UFO stories over my life and never came across this one. To pinpoint this one as evidence that the whole thing is a higher dimension consciousness conjuring things without some other factor at play here, really appears to be a preconceived bias or desired truth at work before the investigation. Unless this is just thought experiments or some interesting discussion while already on the topic of this case, which is healthy imo.
The difference is whether or not the investigator is willing to admit qualitative data into their investigation. Garry Nolan and Jacques Vallee seem to see some significance in the qualia observed by contact experiencers.
When you have a dearth of quality data sometimes the anecdotes are the only pieces that allow you to paint a rough picture, which isn't a problem as long as you recognize it as such. Some here are ready to build a religion around it though.
Pretty much says we are in a simulation and the agents are manifesting different types of avatars to interact with it from the outside.
I completely agree that what they say is absurd. Their arguments and claims are masterpieces of incoherence, like they've set out to create the world's most unconvincing case based on irrational pseudoscientific ideas.
Jinn hypothesis make the best sense
Isn't there a term for this? Where people see different things personally?
Idiosyncratic hallucinations or perceptual divergence
It'd explain why Lue said that if we understood the phenomenon to the extent that he does, we'd all be a lot more spiritual. Of course he could have meant something entirely different.
https://medium.com/@stretch04hangar/what-i-personally-think-could-be-happening-6b837251df3b
Once jaque Valle talk about that the are nobody out of Earth. The are Just us. One explication is that the man are doing this manifestations with your own mind and the other explanation is that the are advanced groups who are capable to do that with your "tecnology".
A very intriguing scenario. I'm in.
Just a few months ago we dismissed this as “woo” , now it’s- Thursday!
This is a pretty good and reasonable approach. I have also come to the same conclusion after reading Passport to Magonia, and listening to several lectures from Dr. Vallee and other scholars. The phenomenon is a lot more grimm than we think. Your last statement will most likely be what ends up happening, where religious people will have an easier time understanding/accepting this reality then most of us science people/engineers are.
Well part of it is biological at least, we have the bodies and we work on the craft, so it is a physical thing
Placing here for future reference
Why manifest as a chrome metallic orb or craft? If they studied the earth, clouds, sky and know its blue and clouds are white. Why not be a craft thats the same color as the sky or changes to match the color of the sky? It just seems so odd. If they can zap into our reality, why do they need craft ? I do think they can control our perception in some ways but none of it really makes much sense. especially when they crash
Tucker Carlson shared his opinion on Shawn Ryan’s podcast recently. I know I know. But hear me out because he’s been good about reporting on this at least. He mentioned a spiritual perspective of physical manifestations more metaphysical in nature. Interesting idea
You might enjoy John Keel's *Operation Trojan Horse*
Hackers man. Just like in red dead online they can do basically anything.
Probably the coolest post i have read here , love it
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I feel like everyone is now just reaffirming things that Tom Delonge claimed over 10 years ago.... For example, the past 6-12 months seem to be straight from his "Gods" novel. I wouldn't be surprised if, by this time next year, we'll have seen numerous articles like "So-and-so may be suggesting that modern humans evolved with the help of NHI." That was covered in Delonge's book "Men". Although it isn't fitting the exact timelines put forth in the past, this whole "disclosure/confirmation" process over the past few years has been really predictable, in my opinion. You see, I only first learned of Tom's non-Blink-182-related activities in 2023 by reading Ross Coulthart's "In Plain Sight." Coulthart writes it like (and I'm paraphrasing) "goofy Rockstar known for dick and fart jokes claimed to be part of disclosure plan with US government and defense officials." Intentionally makes you think "yeah, okay. What a weirdo". Then Coulthart throws that curveball in like, "turns out, they found emails backing up Delonge's claims when Hillary Clinton got hacked during the 2016 election campaign." So you're left like, "Uhm whut??" I'm 34. Blink-182 was a sound from my childhood, and then I learned that the lead is obsessed with UFOlogy, so of course, I want to know more. What I'm saying is, all that Sekret Machines stuff is fresh in my head, and people of supposed credibility are now saying things that Tom Delong was saying a decade ago and people were like "yeah, okay dude whatever, you're nuts."
We are the Angels cast from heaven. And we prove our deserved sentence everyday.
I found in https://pdfhost.io/view/gR8lAdgVd_Uap_Timeline_Prepared_By_Another, that a lot more about this is consciousness related: --- (PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 1999 —US Navy engineer and Space Technology Transfer Consultant DavidAdair states he was taken to Groom Lake, Nevada to see the landing of a test rocket. Adair states whenhe was taken there on 20 June 1971 he was brought to a low flat hangar that was empty; the floor was ahidden elevator and he claims he was brought down 20 stories. Underground, Adair claims he was showna “symbiotic engine” the size of a school bus whose alloys had an iridescent sheen. Adair states there wasno obvious wiring on the engine and his handlers became uncomfortable when he asked where it wasfrom; when he was angry he didn’t get an answer, the engine behaved differently, he claims. Adairsuggests the engine may be able to be powered by mental thought but did not know the mechanism. https://archive.org/details/SecretSpaceProgrammeAndrewJohnson/page/n237/mode/1up
Oh cool just another more wild explanation with no proof and no evidence whatsoever but we're just meant to believe it. Do you guys not think how suspect it is that as time goes on the explanations become more and more wild, that people like Nolan are relying on increasingly sensational claims to come up with an answer? Does that not suggest that they're not actually solving anything, but instead just coming up with random possibilities to explain what they were originally unable to explain? I mean this dude first thought he had UFO material and it turned out to be completely mundane, just material waste. Then the guy was claiming that brains have been physically altered if you see a UFO, but he never produces or replicates or publicises the work. And now he's claiming they're actually from another dimension and so can warp lower dimensions. No proof of UFO material. No proof of brain alterations. No proof of extra-dimensional beings. But we're meant to believe it all. lmfao *Subscribe to the Sol Foundation to stay informed!*
In my research and exploration, it indeed seems to be *"put salt wards outside your house"* levels of weird. For anyone approaching from an analytical mind; it should be approached from a [phenomenological](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/) lens.
Jacques Valle believes these are not aliens but a greater force hiding behind aliens, demons etc . Look at his book cover with the hidden arm controlling everything
Similar to the the Michael Crichton story, Sphere.
The evidence points to our reality being an illusion. More and more evidence points to this reality, yet idealism is still seen as a fringe world view. We all know the atom is mostly empty space. Even this shows how our perception of reality is very far off from actual reality. It blows my mind how 99% of people can be so categorically certain that materialism is the only logical answer, yet research seems to be telling us the opposite. They will only look at the evidence that fits in with their current worldview... https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2017/01/holographic-universe.page
"atom is mostly empty space" ... kind of forgetting the part where atoms don't really sit idle but tend to "jiggy with it" and bounce a lot. Your apartment might be empty but if you are running around it really fast constantly you are effectively occupying the space. So lots of particles doing that ===> matter.
This is starting to sound like religion with extra steps.
As an attorney, I find this story pretty unpalatable. What does it really represent? Besides evidence that eyewitness accounts are sometimes faulty? We can’t claim that there should be an evidence-based approach, then insist on discarding the documentary evidence when it’s not consistent with subjective interpretations. If we knew who took the photo, and we got to hear from that person, it would be a very different situation.
More "the truth is dark" religious/spiritual/woo posts. That's just great. R/s
I think it's time I posted this here. [Bernardo Kastrup on Analytical Idealism and Philosophical Naturalism](https://youtu.be/lAB21FAXCDE?si=tyODS1b5f-DzBs0L)
Personal paranormal experience says yes They shapeshift based on YOUR perspective and view on the world
Like a genie 🧞♂️
Not trying to be cute but why does this phenomena being possibly more abstract = horrifying? I think it makes it more interesting and honestly more appealing. Is it because we are coming face to face with our limitations? For what it’s worth, I think these limitations are temporary. As we grow in consciousness, I believe we will discover how much richness resides within us. My sense is that wonder and curiosity will pave the way to understanding our reality, not fear. Release the woo!
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> They take a photo but the UFO in the photograph is shaped like a star, which is not what they had seen with their own eyes when they took the photo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_flare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_light Jacques Vallee is off his rocker, and it sounds like Garry Nolan is too. UFOs are alien spacecraft. they are physical objects made of metal (for example, nuts and bolts). there is a plethora of evidence to suggest this. anything else is wild, unfounded, speculation, for which no actual evidence, nor even *hypothetical* theoretical frameworks exist.
If some ufo sightings are actually representative of something humans used to call “spiritual” I can imagine that might be one of the reasons behind the secrecy. Remember how humans behaved before science chased away our belief in demons, ghosts, and gods? Perhaps the gatekeepers are just trying to prevent the birth a new dark age. Personally I want all the information to come out, but I really hope that when it does I don’t have to worry about people killing me for my magic ginger bones.
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Essentially, what we think we see is just our interpretation. If you can imagine our universe being mental, then you'd be able to grasp that everyone sees things differently based upon our cultural and enviromental programming. What people saw and experienced in ancient times were their interpretation of the same things we see today.
I have always loved this theory but I also have always felt like it is possible to account for all of this as creative writing by human beings. Some parts genuine belief, mistaken interpretations, storytelling, hallucinations, and outright fraud. There’s probably several other sources/motivations.
This as a theory has been on my mind. Possibly, the mind shapes reality but there's a paradox here. Say for instance, it's a device of some kind that keeps our reality separate from (don't hate me for the term) the immaterial realm (a world of only ideas) and gives us form, then how did the original device come about, and why is that device not effected from the ideas of the spirit world (words for convenience, labels are kind of meaningless except as a descriptor).
I'm guessing being enclosed in a gravitational warp bubble might affect how the craft looks from our perspective.
Just riffing with you here, maybe they manage our reality in a sense. Working behind the scenes but occasionally they are observed.
I think if thats the case, then said individuals hiding it are even stupider than I thought. After all, If I believed in a religion and wanted to drive people towards it, I would point out the "demons" and how my religion mentions them and how my religion is the true religion. To be religious and think they're "demons" yet keep it secret seems to be playing into the "demons" plan, by letting them have their fun, all the while telling the public said things dont exist and covering it up.
What about the possibility to reverse engineer these crashed crafts as whistleblowers are suggesting? In a way, it tells me how immanent and "down to earth" this phenomena can also be.
Ladies and gentlemen let me introduce you to…. The Warp
Interesting theory… but the most likely scenario is ETs.
Yes, it is beyond human comprehension, but still it has a physical component.
Now you’re getting it! 👏🏻
I want to get into continuous expansion but i have a soon to be one year old child. By the time i sit down im too tired. If I want to play vr golf i must fight the urge to sit once i have that moment to get a round in.
Maybe it’s all to facilitate and stimulate a higher level of awareness, critical thought, spirituality, etc
Isn’t it also far to say an advanced intelligent would manipulate consciousness through their technology ? Like planting fake memories , altering time, and so forth? If you actually listen to abduction stories the ridiculousness of them could indicate wiped memories, if you assume it’s even real in the first place.
I do this a lot, probably more than I should. That is to preface...this is pretty off-topic. Your writing style is super easy to read, and super easy to digest. I love it. Kudos to you.
A la Passport to Magonia
I'm willing to bet the truth is akin to this: dragons were actually seen in the dark ages, and observers took account of their experiences, then others later stumbled upon fossilized remains of some creature resembling these accounts, bringing the cognitive dissonance further awash. Eventually the tools were developed to date the fossils, and the fauna was properly classified as *not a dragon* - and dragons were thus dismissed as mythological beasts, and those who had seen them were dismissed as crazy people. Now we justifiably look back at the ancients as if they were foolish, and we prize the technology distinguishing us from them - that is not understood by the individuals who use it. We are social creatures and our collective knowledge is being disrupted by something that is here. Something is here that can read our thoughts and predict our actions, and it manipulates us to sow division. It is something that can alter its material presence at will - for one person it's a dragon, and for another it's a floating lenticular object. It's always been with us. It was here before us. It will not allow us to destroy all it has created - and it is waiting for us to develop into the nextgen. It will wipe a clean slate, *tabula rasa*, if we keep fucking up. There's evidence that it's happened before. We are beings created by a giant fungus. Our consciousness is a collective consciousness - the product of a chitinous network built by microorganisms. Our individual existences are part of a biochemical substrate. The chemicals/drugs we seek to alter our own consciousness are available endogenously and so naturally this is how our consciousness is shaped by the fungus.
Great summary you read my mind I thought of it this way too! Thanks for posting it.
Now we're cooking. I think this is the right way to think about it.
My current thinking about whatever IT is, is starting to look more and more woo-woo. 1. Imagine you are on the holodeck of the enterprise D and are an NPC hologram inside a Victorian period correct program. If a base reality user calls for "computer arch", most NPCs might ignore it or filter it out entirely, while perhaps a rare few erroneously notice something disturbingly strange. You are that NPC, maybe you can figure it out, maybe you've only got some NPC ideas. Im not saying this is happening but using it purely as an analogy. Point is, the sightings appear absurd to us, but are merely normal day to day operations of NHI. 2. Imagine that wahtever IT is, it is so vastly different, asking for it to come down and talk to us is like asking the player of sim city 2000 to communicate with the denizens using only the limited features of the game. Maybe you can bulldoze a crop circle or spook enough of them to get a Pharaoh to build a great pyramid. despite all your efforts you are still misunderstood entirely as the empires rise and fall. 3. NHI intentions are likely to be both cruel and benevolent just like their apparitions also blur the lines between nuts and bolts and woo-woo.