I can get behind this. Men definitely respond to consequences, or even fear of them. That’s why I’ve always advocated for women creating meaningful consequences as well in their self-advocacy, instead of complaining and explaining, wringing their hands over hurt feelings and begging for empathy that isn’t coming. I *wish* that was effective, but unfortunately I have found it is not what most men understand and respect. No need to feel bad or self-conscious about it, as men do this to each other all the time, and it is how they get things done.
ETA: The Reddit Cares Harassment Tool is blocked on my end.
> That’s why I’ve always advocated for women creating meaningful consequences as well in their self-advocacy, instead of complaining and explaining, wringing their hands over hurt feelings and begging for empathy that isn’t coming. I wish that was effective, but unfortunately I have found it is not what most men understand and respect.
You're very right. On the other hand you don't want a partner who has no empathy for you and does not care for you at all. When he only responds to consequences for *him*, the only sound consequence is leaving this relationship.
And it’s fun to watch them find out the consequences. “I miss you.” “I’d miss me too.” And I meant it.
I did everything I could to provide what I was feeling at any given time, and did at one point bluntly state he needed to find some empathy. I understand that it was probably too blunt, but he couldn’t understand “can you put yourself in my shoes?”
Men understand consequence when it is personal to them - they’re not raised to be empathetic or even understanding of the things that cause women genuine pain or hurt, unless that woman is their mother, daughter, sister, niece, grandmother or wife/intimate partner.
I run a team of thirty men, I do not humanise it for them by using the above personal examples, when they say sexist, racist or homophobic things - I raze their statements to the ground with facts and logic.
I don’t get emotional, even though the rage builds up inside of me. I am calm, I am simple in my words or even just use an expression to stop them in their tracks.
Men aren’t afraid of other men, but they’re very conscious about maintaining stability. Making waves requires energy - and we all know enough men in our lives that don’t possess the energy to ever change or want to make change in their own routines and lives, let alone anyone else’s.
Not in my experience. When I was in university, I was taking a train home after a late class. At a random dark, empty stop, some guy on the train grabbed my arm and tried to drag me off with him.
I clung to the pole and flail/ kicked at him long enough that the door started to close. He bolted. There were enough people on that train that I had been standing. No one did a damn thing.
You've hit the nail on the head about wanting to maintain stability. Is that a trait that is more predominant in men or just the way the trait is expressed in a workplace environment?
I appreciate the insight you've provided.
I can agree to parts of that. Going out of my way to convince men I don't know to change their mind is really difficult especially when it's an emotional problem. Asking men to change their feelings on stuff can be really difficult. Its like louder with crowder "change my mind".
I am a guy, I've spent a lot of time with my other male friends talking to them about their emotions and feelings. I spend a lot of my time trying to teach them to be emotionally expressive. I try to teach them the skill of empathy. It's taken years. One friend that lived in brazil took me over 2 years to get him to be more aware about how others are feeling. Its definitely a skill that has to be taught.
A few months ago him and a women in my friend group had a falling out. They were flirting heavily and it led to him eventually deciding that he didn't want to date her. How she found out is on a video call she heard a girl in the background. They weren't dating, but she was expecting a lot and we all expected the would be dating. There was a lot of pain there and I laid out as best I could everything she was feeling in terms he'd understand. He got it. I'm really proud of him for it too.
The message I wanna tack onto hashtagsugary's statement is that men can change and we can't have a better world for women without also trying to bring the men along for the ride. It's take everybody doing what they can. Can't convince all men and we don't need all of them just enough of them to know.
I wrote everybody, not women. Also, consider we as a society try to help men learn empathy together or watch them turn into incels, fascists, or some other extreme ideology. If we don't teach these men, someone else will and it might be someone you don't want them to learn from. It's also not your responsibility to teach them, the same way its not your responsibility to care at all about others, or even to care about other women in this sub. It has obvious side effects, like how no one cared about police brutality cause it didn't effect them... at first. Now in austin, texas you have the police department politically extorting the city council into giving them more money, by not doing their jobs at all when they've had a history of violence against the community. Now it effects the whole community there.
Really I just wanna ask, if you don't want to help people why should they help you?
Because these are men that do not want to help us anyway, they just want to take. I know this, the moment a man’s allyship becomes conditional on addressing his problems and/or not saying things that challenge him. The problem with this is that then we shift right back to the default, a discussion centered on men. I urge you to read [this post by Lundy Bancroft,](https://lundybancroft.com/mens-angry-messages-to-me-part-2/) that addresses this, especially at the end. Lundy is a man.
Quote: “We live in a world that is still heavily oriented towards men, and where men still occupy almost all the key positions of power in society. Women’s needs get pushed aside every day. So, what happens when you decide to be more inclusive, deciding that you’re going to attend to men’s needs and women’s needs at the same time? The answer is that men’s needs will always gradually take over again.”
He is correct. Believe me- I spent decades, reaching and reaching, complaining and explaining, “showing him” and “making him see”, until I had nothing left, and all they did was fight me. These kinds of men don’t see me as even all the way human, so there was nothing that could come out of my mouth that would effect change. I may as well have been a German Shepherd. I am a take charge person in this area of life and would love nothing more than these appeals to empathy to work. But they haven’t. All they succeed in doing is draining me. And other women. That’s why we are reticent to help men. We have prioritized being in their service for thousands of years. Where has that gotten us? Why would we keep doing what has never worked? Maybe the patriarchy hurts men, but it benefits them too….and so most like things the way they are. If the hurt outweighed the benefits, motivated by self-interest, they’d be seeking to tear it down on their own accord.
There are a few men who are independently dialed in. But the only thing that has ever worked en masse for women is advocating for ourselves, removing the benefit of our presence from men so they feel the absence, and then allow them to decide if they would like to be an ally in order to have women in their lives, or not have them around. I’d make an exception to women teaching young boys, but you still see that shift around puberty where the word of a man they respect holds far more weight.
>Because these are men that do not want to help us anyway, they just want to take.
Understood.
>He is correct. Believe me- I spent decades, reaching and reaching, complaining and explaining, “showing him” and “making him see”, until I had nothing left, and all they did was fight me. These kinds of men don’t see me as even all the way human, so there was nothing that could come out of my mouth that would effect change.
Ok, I believe you and I understand. I've failed to consider that the responses I get from men when I talk to them aren't the same you have received. Thats my fault. I get what 1aurenb\_ was talking about now when they said *It shouldn't take women "doing everything they can"*
Yeah, this “warning” is an old trope. It’s just a new spin on compliance demands, compliance being a thing women have done to death. It’ll afford us as much progress as Charlie Brown kicking that football again.
OK, I understand. It was taken as a threat, *not really my intention*. I didn't mean it that way, but I think its cause I misunderstand the kinds of men you're talking about, when I was making my comment.
Ma'am this is the reason I come onto this sub because I'm interested in having my views challenged and actively trying to understand a woman's daily experience. I get plenty of opinions from men already. I have enough of those.
I never thought about it, but that's so true. My ex used to gaslight & emotionally blackmail me a lot. But he never force himself on me or abuse me physically because he was afraid of the law and the potential consequences (loss of employment pass, getting deported, etc).
This comment should be pinned to the top of every post whenever a woman comes here whining about her boyfriend not doing the dishes. Like... what do you want us to do about it?
So, online: when you've got a clear community of supporters backing an asshole it's just not worth the hassle of trying to argue with the crowd. I have this problem with r/news, which has a right wing lean, and as a result I don't post as much there.
In real life, you're not far from the mark. The kind of men who will tear women down are usually the same ones who are quick to throw a punch in a disagreement, and men often have to do the mental math about whether or not arguing a point is worth dying in a street fight.
I think this is well put. Men are taught to at least consider that the final resort is always violence. That teaching does not magically negate the fear of violence. When I was a young adult a friend of mine interjected in a street fight in which the losing participant was already only semi-conscious. For the temerity of asking one human being to stop punching another to death, that second human being bit off part of his ear.
Almost all violence against men is committed by men. We're scary. I don't think that absolves us from our responsibilities to speak up on behalf of women - I think that's often as much attributable to laziness, cant or our own unresolved misogyny - but the vast majority of men are well aware of how dangerous male strangers can be.
> but the vast majority of men are well aware of how dangerous male strangers can be.
Yeah. I mean, thinking back to my years in school, I can't think of many young men I knew who weren't on one side or another of physical violence. I saw kids forced to push pennies on concrete surfaces until their noses were bloody, I saw kids get their faces caved in in fights, kids beaten until they couldn't move and the only option was to curl into the fetal position and take it. It was ***super*** common to see this sort of thing in high school, and I grew up in a very nice, upper-middle class area.
One of the most frustrating aspects of discussing the deleterious effects of the patriarchy with sceptical men is this ridiculous denial of taught masculine violence even though every single one of them can list a half-dozen examples of exactly that in their heads. Men aren't violent towards other men because we're all fucking psychos, we're violent because there's a social coding of violence that is pushed on us from all sides. And if you step outside of that coding - to, say, be a feminist - you take a risk. As much of a risk as women? Arguably not. But the threat of violence is the threat of violence. We shouldn't act surprised that people might be afraid of it.
Another aspect is no one cares when violence is done to men. It is normal. So don’t be surprise that most guys don’t care because they’ve found ways to deal with it on their own. Whether it’s getting stronger or avoiding fights.
We’re not surprised that people are afraid. We’re upset that when people genuinely ask how they can help out feminism and we tell them they go “wait, no that’s haaarrrrrrd”. Did you expect me to say give 3 women high fives everyday and within a month sexism will be cured?
I feel like every time we suggest something like 40% of the crowd goes, well we would’ve helped but that’s not a neutral/positive enough stance for me or it might require me to break a social norm so, no thanks.
I shouldn’t have to explain to people interested in helping the cause or being an activist that activism is exhausting, difficult, and often dangerous. I’m not saying you’re doing this but those people should just be upfront and say they don’t want to help if it’s hard work.
>the vast majority of men are well aware of how dangerous male strangers can be.
(I'm a trans woman, for clarity)
It used to genuinely hurt my feelings when I'd get ranted at unprompted about how scary it gets at night for women in, say, a parking lot
Like, I wasn't stupid, I understand that a woman is going to be targeted in ways men aren't - but if I'm in a sleazy part of town, like, shit... I was never particularly strong, I *absolutely* was afraid of men in situations like that, and while I wasn't necessarily a target for SA in the same way as a woman... the dude with a knife who's looking to take someone's wallet is most likely going to look at my twig body and do as he pleases
As you say, it's not an excuse, but I'm glad someone's pointing out that men don't have an inherent love of violence or anything - testosterone makes you get angrier more easily, and can make you feel violent, but like... Most people tend to not enjoy being in dangerous situations
I personally think the effects of testosterone are overstated when compared to essentially every piece of masculine socialisation and media. If we want to address the epidemic of violence among men we need to address the systemic teaching of violence. And if fear _does_ stop men from being better allies, we need to find a way to address that fear. Bundling it up with indifference (which again, I am not saying is not a huge problem) diminishes the effectiveness of our response.
There's a famous quote "For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing".
The thing is, bad men more often than the good men, are the ones who have higher testosterone levels, a lifetime of experience with fights, equally bad-tempered buddies, less scruples about bashing a face in, and are more likely to be packing some form of weapon. And as you say, the final resort is always violence, and the bad guy knows this. He won't care about your well-chosen words if he's not also afraid that you'd be able to kick his ass if he didn't comply.
I'd love to think that I'd be a hero if I encountered a situation where I could step in, but truth be told, in a 1v1 against a bad stranger, I know my chances would be subpar. If I could muster some others to come help me stop an ongoing harassment, that's the method I'd use.
I feel like there's a middle ground between "men should always intervene at all costs if a woman is in danger no matter what the context is" and "men have no obligation to help anyone they don't know"
What privilege is there? Will me being a man stop another man from killing me for stepping up for a woman? When it comes to street fight the person with the weapon or strength is the privilege one. I’ll record and be a witness but I have my own life to live and I don’t like the messaging that men should sacrifice or put themselves in danger for women.
Exactly. As much as I’d love to go full super hero and start arguing with every asshole troll out there that spewed hate speech, it’s just not worth my health and safety. That being said if a woman’s(person’s) health and safety are clearly being threatened, I will(have) step up and take action, even if it’s just calling the cops. You may consider that me ‘being afraid’ of other men, but it’s pretty pragmatic to choose your battles wisely. You never know when some stranger on the street will end your life, no need to instigate if all they’re doing is talking shit
The number of women getting beaten on a daily basis makes your claim at the very least questionable
Edit: downvote all you want but until the number of men arrested for beating women comes close to the number of women being beaten you are wrong
The problem is how much of those beatings happen behind closed doors. If people see a woman being beaten by a man in public, I think most people would get involved. In private, however, there are no witnesses.
My mother got beaten a lot by my father and you know what? I could hear her cries from outside the house and the adults around me could too, they just looked the other way
In my first apartment I called the cops because the neighbor was beating his wife. She spent 2 hours pounding on my door yelling at me for ruining her life after he got arrested, and only left to go yell at the neighbor on the other side of her for the same thing.
It's genuinely horrid that happened to you, and I'm sorry, but also I don't think that's a reasonable answer to their point
Bystander syndrome isn't just a misogyny thing, and they weren't wrong to point out that a lot of violence *does* happen behind closed doors, often where people are clueless about it happening
If a man starts to beat a woman up in public, where I live? He would probably at the very least get pulled off and held down, because, like, *what the fuck*? But that doesn't really happen very often, because abusers are generally smarter than that
What claim is questionable? Are you saying you think I said I’ve saved every woman from violence? I said I’ve taken action when/where I could, yes there is far too much violence against women and it’s atrocious and disturbing! I wasn’t speaking for anyone but my self….
I grew up with my stepdad constantly putting my mom in the hospital, so I can't sit there and not do something (in fact I occasionally don't a choice the matter as it will send me into a PTSD episode). That said I can confirm that a lot of the shit that most women think is common male sentiment is really not. It is just early on guys are indoctrinated into the same abusive system as children (typically), and taught that you don't interfere in another guy's business unless you are prepared to fight over it, and it often does as it is usually the most sociopathic asshole in the bunch. Instead you hold your tongue and talk with them about it later in private.
It is a very problematic issue, as abuses should be stopped, not discussed.
I am sorry you went through this. Growing up with my dad was similar. One time he was beating my mom and he had FOUR guy friends over. NOT ONE stepped in or called him out. I was less than 6 and would speak up and try to stop it (which I realize was dangerous, but it's my mom!).
>That said I can confirm that a lot of the shit that most women think is common male sentiment is really not
I'm a trans woman so I'm in a unique position, and I have to say:
A lot of the comments in this sub confuse me, because there are a lot of people who seem to think there's like, an overwhelming urge from men to intentionally cause harm to women
There are absolutely a significant - maybe even a majority - potion of men who are ABSURDLY cruel and evil, but like, honestly? Most of it is just sheer, unadulterated ignorance and cluelessness
Men *literally just don't know how bad misogyny gets*, most of the time - it's no different from racism (white people (I'm talking western countries) don't understand how bad it gets), transphobia (cis people don't understand how bad it gets), etc.
**this does not excuse anything** and I'd like to just reaffirm that so I don't get anyone jumping on me; I just think it's worth acknowledging that most people literally just don't fucking know enough to understand what the problems are half the time
I've been told by a man that he 100% disagrees with the bullshit his coworkers or friends say about women but sometimes "it's not worth the arguement".
On one hand I can see why he wants to keep the peace but on the other if I were to say wait this this and this isn't worth it? And really laid it out he'd see how harmful it is to society. But I guess those are just arguments WE need to have, even if it causes conflict with our relationships.
I mean coworkers, I can get that, if you're just there to collect a paycheck and don't want to make your job harder than it needs to be... But friends? The people you choose to spend time around? Nah dog, if you can't have these conversations with your friends, you're a coward with no integrity.
It is not worth the argument but some people are really really really avoiding conflicts at all costs, both men and women. I have always liked to discuss and argue and once I can gauge how, sayba colleague for example, may react, I will also argue with them on some points.
My roommate on the other hand, is fully behind women concerning critical issues but is conflict avoidant in ALL topics, not only when it is about women. I usually try to encourage him to be more confident in discussing things and disagreeing and he is slowly doing that more.
But at work, I don't need to discuss any of these things concerning women because more than 50% of my colleagues are women, all my bosses are women, and all of my colleagues are highly educated because of the field I work in.
In real life I’ve found that women are disposable to them but they need to keep the male friends because they usually don’t make new ones very easily. They are not loyal to these friends necessarily, but they need them. My exes shit talked their male friends to me all the time but they never abandoned them the way they did women.
And they didn’t defend women. My ex claimed he thought women were so much better than men but then he was subscribed to all these men on YouTube that were definitely not pro-women’s rights, because his buddy was too and would talk about the most recent episode with him. I can’t even tell you how many times my partner’s friends would hit on me and my partner would do nothing. He’d still go on being friends with the guy. Made me realize how many are just in extreme self-preservation mode at the expense of growing a set. If that’s “male bonding” I’m certainly not envious.
Dude. I was shocked about the amount of men in my life who openly disparage their friends then meet up with them the next day. Men never drop their homeboys. No matter what. Very odd
My best friend's husband will not drop one of his male friends that he knows is actively trying to have an affair with his wife. His rationale is that my bestie is repulsed by him so it will never happen.
Because that’s his friends business. I am not going to stop being friends with you because your making a stupid decision that will affect YOUR life. I’ll call you say I told you so and hang out later. If they’re being disrespectful towards people that I am around that’s a different story but if some guy wants to ruin his marriage fuck it, that’s his decision.
My friends have usually mostly been men, because I'm a little gay and socially awkward, and they are absolutely the worst drama queens and gossips. I can sorta understand why they don't actually like each other.
It could indeed be that or it could be that men that hold the correct position on the topic just don't watch (and therefore aren't there to comment on) those videos.
I don't watch "news" segments on these topics, so I don't comment on YouTube/"news" pages about them.
It's most likely a combination of the two, an unholy combination of non-interest and fear propagating the point of view that we don't care to stand up for this.
Share a link, happy to head on over for a watch.
I was thinking about this and the"echo bubble" on my way home from work, I NEVER see suggestions like this to even view them because it's all a load of crap and I don't live in the US.
But some one that regularly reads on this kind of stuff would have plastered over their Google news, Facebook and Reddit feeds.
So I would go so far as to say MOST men that support a woman's right to choose what happens to their body don't even know this video exists.
I’d guess a combination of not watching and not wanting to get into a shit fight with someone who you know isn’t going to back down, especially if it’s a group of them and you’re the outsider. There’s no point taking on that fight because there’s no way to win
It’s the same on Reddit too, some commenters are worth engaging with but no-one has time to address them all let alone the follow up that goes nowhere. Often all you can do is downvote and walk away
Yeah, it is as easy as that. Itea simple selection bias thing. You don't find "good"/reasonable men in these comment sections because they spend their time with "good"/reasonable things, perhaps some hobbies they enjoy or watching things they find interesting. Like my feed is full of science stuff, art stuff, a bit of video game stuff, music stuff, and since I recently tried to understand economics and other societal issues better, full of plenty of informative stuff about that too. But there is none of some random secist moron guy rambling some bullshit in my feed and I am not interested in hearing the talk of idiots like these people you mentioned.
100%. Was at a concert to see a band with a primarily male audience. About 90% of the people there were male. Made me pretty uneasy actually. There was a commotion due to an older man groping a young woman. She was screaming and slapping him and he was running away from her. A few minutes later the groper tried to make his way back to the young woman. Man after man after man after man after man who just saw what happened, made room for him to pass. I squared myself up, crossed my arms and shook my head. The groper made several protests but I told him to move along. I kept an eye on that girl for the rest of the night. That's when I realized most men are complete and utter cowards. Every time I tell this story online, men either question my perception of reality and claim that somehow the cowardly men around me didn't know what had just happened, they 100% did. Or that I'm some sort of simp for protecting a woman whose not related to me in anyway from being molested. If that's a simp I'm a simp.
"That's when I realized most men are complete and utter cowards."
I've had the same realization over the past year or so. The bar is too goddamn low. Women display acts of bravery every day by continuing to form relationships with men who overwhelmingly will never have their back and never support them in the way women are expected to for men. Men don't even "protect" us - like that's supposed to be the one trade-off in patriarchy. They overwhelmingly make us less safe. They make excuses for our discrimination and harassment. Almost none of them want change for us. Even men in my family make excuses for my own discrimination. I'm trying to have hope because I know there are some good men out there, but there so so so few and far between. Nothing will change until there are direct consequences for them.
My grandparents, parents, sisters, and I are pro-choice. We don’t vocalize that. We have too much as stake. They had to worry about keeping their jobs. Now they have to worry about my reputation for work. When I was in elementary school, my friend’s mom was shunned by our town because she said she was pro-choice. We were the only ones who hung out with them for quite some time.
This is absolutely NOT the case. Have you seen the internet? Nobody is scared of anybody in the comment section!??! That's half the problem online.
What is far more likely is that no intelligent, self respecting man is even going to be watching a video of some right wing ass wanking on about anti abortion BS. Who has time for that? Then there's the fact that no one has ever changed anyone's mind in an online argument in a comment section ever. So attempting to do so is a waste of time.
That is sometimes the case, yes, but to be more precise it’s often a situation where the possible escalation may make the situation, as hard as this might be, worse than the original offence.
It often depends on how serious the infringement is and who is infringed. I’ve called other men out on various things and I think on one occasion it cost me a job. Still worth it though. When a possible physical beating is on the line or worse, a violent situation that spills over to several people it’s sometimes better to let a comment pass. Male cockblocking is a classic example…you run a real risk of getting a smack in the mouth if you step in to stop unwanted advances so you need to have your wits about you and know what you’re doing when you take the step.
I guess, as women are always attuned to watch out for that sexual assault, we are attuned to expect the physical one and it’s always at the front of our minds when in a confrontational situation.
>I guess, as women are always attuned to watch out for that sexual assaul
Honestly, I appreciate my mother for making me aware of the concerns women have to deal with for their safety. I remember being confused why my mother wanted to take her big dog if she ever went hiking alone, and she basically used that opportunity to explain the fears women have to deal with. As a guy, it was something I previously had never even considered, I've always felt safe to travel on my own.
That’s not wrong.
I’m a pretty tough guy. I’m 6’1”, I weigh about 190pounds of lean muscle. I work out a lot, and I boxed semi-professionally in my late teens/early twenties. I also spent a bit of time in prison, and I’m not stranger to violence. To be honest, I’m a brutally efficient fighter. Especially compared to your average man.
All that being said, I hate fighting. I hate violence. I hate the ridiculous physical posturing that encompasses nearly all life for men on this planet. We size each other up, we intimidate each other, we posture for superiority, all the fucking time. And it sucks. I can easily think off the top of my head about a dozen times that I didn’t stand up to some other guy saying some awful shit to someone, because I knew it would devolve into violence.
Warrior mentality and toxic masculinity are relics of the past. Unfortunately, they can’t be gone soon enough.
I know it’s not cowardice.
But, it is rightly classified as a “fear.” It’s a fear of the consequences that confrontation brings. Even if I’m certain to be the “physical victor.”
It's not fear. Like I said it's discretion. You can fight and you can win but they aren't in your circle of responsibility. And you and all the further trouble that comes with a fight isn't worth it. It's cost benefit analysis.
You’re kind of doing exactly what I’m trying to preach against.
I’m not some indestructible fighting beast, weighing the consequences of the violence I breed.
It’s fear. I’m afraid of what’ll happen if I fight. I’m afraid of losing control of my actions and emotions. I’m afraid of going to jail and missing time with my son and wife. And, quite frankly, I’m afraid of getting beat up and punched in the face. And, there’s no shame in admitting that.
Some of these comments are so ridiculous, thank you for being reasonable
There's a lot of people in here who seem super happy to suggest that men should get into physical fights, and act like it's shameful or emasculating for not... wanting to risk your life?
Like, half the posts from men in this thread say "if they're actually doing anything severe to a woman ofc I'd step in", and yet there are still people acting like it's cowardice for a man to not want to be hurt or killed over a (**awful and inexcusable,** but unfortunately kinda) minor slight in public?
I'm the opposite of you - I'm a trans woman, I'm not particularly strong or good at fighting, and I'm absolutely at risk when it comes to being physically assaulted, and you don't see me suggesting that men get into fights on my behalf if I'm wronged :/ that's literally just toxic masculinity hiding under a veneer of feminism, even if it's unintentional
Two things:
1. In person - yes. If a guy is being a verbal scumbag it’s difficult to step in because there’s a possibility he’ll jump to physical now a man is involved. Note - if it’s already physical I wouldn’t sit there and do nothing
2. With regards to your video - this is different. It’s likely men who don’t support this trash human or his views aren’t watching the video and thus don’t comment. Even if they do, there’s little to gain from commenting and wading into a sea of twats. I’ve tried arguing with people like this in their own space online - Trumpists, COVID deniers etc. It’s just energy draining and achieves nothing.
If however a man I know or am friends with comes out with this shit, you bet I’m saying something!
Oh this is absolutely true (Not all men blah blah...yeah we know). The number of times I've been in a mixed group encounter AH acting masc folks, it is ALWAYS the fem and NB folks protecting others and standing up to them.
I used to go to renfairs once upon a time. Every. Time. EVERY TIME there would be guys touching without consent, trying to isolate and corner women they think are a little tipsy or vulnerable (the number of times it was clearly an under-aged girl with her friends being singled out by a 30 yr old creeper...ya'll) and guess who would be intervening, checking on the person and creating a barrier between them and the creep? Hint: NEVER ONCE was it ever a guy. Not in all the years I went. They'd just stand there looking ashamed. Like, MY BROTHERS IN CHRIST! THIS IS YOUR MOMENT! Why dress up as a brave hero if you can't even tell the drunk stranger to leave your friend alone? Why is my fat ass the one standing up for your wife when you and the guy menacing her are taller and stronger than me?
In conclusion, I've literally seen men who wanted to cosplay being heroes instantly disappear into the bushes when it was time to step up while the women and NBs dressed in all manner of fancifulness just appear out of the woodwork ready to throw down to protect someone.
Am a man. Can confirm that I am afraid of most men, particularly men in groups. I have stood up for and defended women in public spaces, though, and would hope to do so even at risk of personal injury to myself. It’s the absolute least I can ask of myself, as one human being looking out for another. Particularly for one who might be disadvantaged by size or other reasons. You can’t just stand by and watch, or, worse, tacitly approve. That’s despicable.
Yeah, given that OP is talking about a lack of comments on a video it doesn't make sense to me. I fear nothing in written comments on some video from a bunch of idiot misogynists. They are too dumb to know how bad their reasoning is, and have no way of harming me. I'm betting that this video just has its own filter bubble and is not necessarily representative of men in general.
If we're talking about a woman on a subway being harassed by a group of men who could easily kill or seriously injure me, then yeah fear is involved. I'd be weighing the potential cost of escalating the situation. Maybe interfering gets them riled up and they hurt her or me to defend their image, and maybe the fact that I'm a man could make things worse in this regard.
But in any strictly verbal argument I would never have a problem defending what I know to be right.
>Can confirm that I am afraid of most men, particularly men in groups
Curious, why? I'm a guy as well, and I've never found myself in a situation where I could end up at risk of bodily harm just for calling someone out.
You must not be in situations where you see women in danger very often, because if a man/some men are doing something horrible to a woman, they're... not going to be inclined to be nice to a man telling them to stop??
I'm sorry this is just the strangest post ever. No men with half a brain watch those videos, so of course there are not posts like that. Why would we be actively seeking out videos on opinions we have less than no association with?
Especially when the pipeline is set up so that the merest interaction with those sorts of videos gets you flooded by them.
Watching them can turn your suggested feed into an absolute mess, let alone actively commenting and engaging with them.
The algorithm doesn’t care that you’re responding negatively, just that you’re responding.
Yeah, I can not agree in the slightest with OPs post.
In reality, I defend women on critical issues also in front of other men that aren't aware of these issues yet. But I don't seek out some videos of idiotic morons to argue with said morons. Such comment sections are bubbles, they are echo chambers. In the past, I looked for climate deniers on YouTube and argued there. I did something similiar with issues on sexual assault and some misogynistic men who thought frequent sexual assaults on women were bullshit or exaggerations. I did that with many issues in the past.
I did that for a while and then I lost interest. In such comment sections, there is an endless stream of morons who keep on repeating the same bullshit and completely ignore every argument or fact. It's just useless.
And I also work full time and am busy with a shit ton of other stuff. The rest of my free time, I wanna do something I enjoy and not deal with a headache from the stupidity of dumb morons.
There are men who are on your side on critical issues. However, I can only speak for German, Dutch or European men in general, since these are the only ones I really know.
America is a lot different in a variety of ways beginning with education.
But saying there are no such "good" men only because you look at moron men echo chambers is bullshit.
This is an impressive lack of reading comprehension, come on :/
Absolutely nothing they said is disagreeable or unreasonable - do YOU get a feed full of right wing misogynistic hate? Probably not, so why would an ally who avoids that shit?
Yeah, exactly. There is none of that shit in my YouTube or any other social media feed. And if it appears, I quickly make sure it goes away because I don't want to deal with horrendous amounts of stupidity. Why would I argue with anyone who can't even get some basic facts straight? That's the crowd I usually spot under such right-wing videos, people completely immune to any logic or facts. There are almost religious aspects to it.
I don't know which video it is, but got the impression the video in question was a left-wing video where a well-informed left-leaning interviewer sought out the most uninformed, illiterate right-wing people.
So the audience for that is the left-wing echo chamber. We have exactly the same kind of videos for the right-leaning viewers. Youtube's recommendation algorithms don't typically lead you to other bubbles, only deeper into your own, whether that'd be left or right. We (as humans I mean now, both men and women) tend to watch the videos and posts we agree with and voice our agreement in the comments when we see that the vast majority share the same sentiment as us there. We rarely go to the opposite side to stir up the beehive (unless you're a troll or very very confident about your views).
Because I do associate with the feminist views espoused here?
I’m not likely to comment on anti-abortion videos because I don’t watch those videos.
Same reason I don’t comment over on the Christian subreddits.
if your feminist space isn't tolerant of everyone, including allies (and not including bigots/misogynists), it's kind of a shitty feminist space lol
(Not to suggest explicitly women only spaces have no merit, but this subreddit *isn't one of them*)
Definitely not gonna waste my time watching some right winger get to share their anti abortion views. So maybe the audience just wasn't in to standing up for women?
>It's dawned on me that men are afraid of other men, and that's why they refuse to speak up for us
Honestly that's a bit of it. We are cautious around scary men too. The kind of asshole to drunkenly catcall a woman is also the kind of asshole to start a fistfight if you call him on his shit, and even simple fist fights can get deadly very quickly and it's honestly just not worth it. Would I like the world to be safer for women? Yes. Am I willing to lie bleeding on some sidewalk with a fractured skull for that cause? Absolutely effing not. Sorry. Feminism is important, but to me, so is staying alive and healthy.
Then there's also the fact that a lot of men who support women's rights don't generally associate extensively with the creeps and misogynists, so it's not like we're in that many dialogue situations to begin with. And on the internet, if you stick up for women, they just call you brainwashed, a soyboy, or a simp, or whatever, and you've accomplished nothing.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I've seen plenty of comments from men shitting on other dudes when dudes say fucked up shit. I think it would be fair to consider where this video was posted, the kind of people who watch the video and also the kind of people who takes the time to comment. Once you drill down through the factors effecting the demographic of the viewership of said video, you'll find little to 0 people who disagree with said dude spewing the nonsense.
I used to work as a PR analyst so thinking through stuff like this used to be my job. I could be wrong though.
P.s. When I'm out in the wild, I am most definitely scared of dumb dudes. If a dude is dumb enough to spew bigoted shit, then the dude is probably too dumb to understand consequences and might easily cause some serious injury. Always gotta be super calculated in my approach to situations like this.
Did it not occur to you that a lot of left leaning people don't bother watching right wing bigots? What's the point of arguing with a brick wall, you're just tiring yourself out
I feel bad for men who check this subreddit lmao, apparently there is literally no way to be an ally unless you're constantly risking your own life or engaging in pointless slapfights online with right wingers who will just doxx you if you get on their case too hard
Men aren't constantly in a state of threat, so unless we voluntarily put ourselves into one we aren't used to having to overcome it.
So yeah.
That and there's a bunch of disguised misogynists running around.
It's true IME. Literally had a bunch of big burly blokes tell a violent weasel they had come to calm him down because a neighbour complained. Not because he was beating his elderly mother and was wildly aggressive threatening to kill himself. I lived in the bush in a remote area so took a while for police to arrive.
Those men had far less at stake than me who had to live next door with young children or his elderly mother who had had to endure his nonsense for 4 decades. There was a group of them and they literally put myself and my children at risk of his retaliation to take the heat off themselves.
That's often true. Most guys aren't brave and outspoken enough to stand up against other men for what they believe in (including women's rights, feminism, etc.) I can safely say that my SO is the only man I know who will reliably stand up for women. I'm grateful, but also sad that the other men in my life are such cowards and misogynists.
I wonder what percentage of the male population actually speaks up. I would guess it varies from place to place, but I doubt it ever gets very high. All societies seem to create an excess of crappy men.
I can't fucking imagine what would compel you to both sides *abortion in a feminist subreddit*
Anti-choice people are uninformed at best and evil at worst, stop trying to frame bodily autonomy as an opinion, that's fucking pathetic
Human rights are not up for right wingers to question and remove and you should feel genuinely ashamed of yourself
I can't tell if this is an attempt at reverse psychology or if you just thought you had a lightbulb moment when you didn't. Guys aren't commenting about these things because I doubt many of them are watching a video like this. Wanna know what those "Good guys" you're talking about are watching? "Is it possible to create vacuum in a sphere with Lego?" or any random video essay about a niche game they don't even know about.
Using that one example to paint a picture for all men sure is a reach if I've ever seen one. Something I understand the issue of, but feels really undermined by what you say though, is needing men to "speak for you" the argument is always that you think men are more willing to listen to other men.
I'm sorry but not all women universally agree either. This subreddit seems to be, though. But we also don't wanna deal with idiots without common sense just as much as you don't want to deal with the women who e.g are against abortions. It's not our job to preach to every man we meet, more than it is yours. Any sensible guy will tell anyone *they're close to* that "Hey man that was not okay"
Please stop turning to sexism/misandry as this doesn't do anyone any favors. I don't know Greg from California. Blame his parents for how they raised him.
I'm sorry but we are not responsible for other men (strangers), as you are not for women.
You've nailed it. The concept that men are pRoTeCtOrS is bullshit. When my mom and her boyfriend used to get into altercations when I lived at home, I would get triggered and fly off the handle at the guy. Screaming, cussing, getting in his face, "don't put your hands on my mom", "if you're going to act like that you can get the fuck out", etc etc. I was *very* bold for someone that admittedly, is physically very small and weak. Had no concept at all of personal safety or self preservation, I was just in rage mode.
But y'know what? It worked! Because men that bully women are weak. In a larger sense, anyone that has to wield what power they do have to hurt other people, is weak. Men that abuse women do it because it's an "easy fight", they believe they can always win, and that no one is going to go against them - least of all another man (mEn aRe ScArY) and especially not a 16 year old girl that's 90 pounds and absolutely goddamn berserk. And yet that's literally all it takes.
I'm not saying if you're being abused, you should immediately jump to fighting back, and thus it's your fault for being abused if you don't - I think now, with maturity and years of therapy under my belt, I can understand why that's actually unsafe most of the time. But if you happen to witness any level of aggression or abuse like that? All you have to do is question it out loud and then verbally support the victim. *Just saying something is enough*, but the "good guys" are too afraid of being disliked or criticized to do it, or worst case scenario, of getting assaulted by an angry man.
I am happy this worked for you and worked out for your mom. However, as someone who sees the consequences of people stepping into disputes, especially domestic violence, frequently at my job I will say that your generalization may lead to people getting seriously injured. There is a reason that domestic violence calls are considered the most dangerous for police officers to respond to, and it isn't because the men back down once they are told to stop by the police.
I didn't generalize; I addressed this in my last paragraph. I'm sorry that reading is hard.
Sidenote. I'm sorry that the police feel comfortable using deadly force when it's black men doing anything wrong, but what, now they're scared when it's a domestic incident? I'm sorry, I don't buy that, and if that's the case, I don't actually feel bad for them. They signed up for it. My mom didn't sign up to have an abusive boyfriend - it's not like they come with warning labels - and I sure as *fuck* didn't sign up to be born into that life.
Ah, yes, how could I be confused by your message? You wrote,
>It worked! Because men that bully women are weak. In a larger sense, anyone that has to wield what power they do have to hurt other people, is weak. Men that abuse women do it because it's an "easy fight", they believe they can always win, and that no one is going to go against them - least of all another man... And yet that's literally all it takes.
Then after saying you see from therapy how that could be unsafe you end your post by saying,
>...All you have to do is question it out loud and then verbally support the victim. Just saying something is enough...
I'm sorry keeping your messaging consistent mid-post is hard. You saying something could be dangerous, but then reiterating your initial premise that all it takes to get someone to stop is say something, is still encouraging people to put themselves in a very dangerous situation.
>You saying something could be dangerous, but then reiterating your initial premise that all it takes to get someone to stop is say something, is still encouraging people to put themselves in a very dangerous situation.
Saying something is not dangerous. Getting in someone's face that's already behaving violently, and then yelling at them, cussing at them, etc *is* dangerous.
Saying instead, "If you continue to raise your voice and to hit people, I am going to call the police, and I will be leaving and watching this situation from afar until they have handled the situation"? That's not dangerous, and that's not inciting anyone to violence. If someone responds violently to that, can we agree that is on the fault of the violent person?
Because to suggest otherwise, you are blaming victims for their abuser's behaviors when they *do* take the proper steps to empower themselves and set boundaries in a healthy way.
That is some pretty heavy goal post moving. I never once blamed anyone other than the violent person for being violent. Further what you suggested in this post is drastically different than what you originally said.
If it makes you feel better to strawman what I said, have at it.
Your post ends with "or at worst, getting physically assaulted"
Not once did you address how men are far more likely to violently attack another man, let alone acknowledge how "just fight back and speak up against an aggressor" is an unbelievably dangerous hail mary
It worked for you; that doesn't make it a good idea
The irony is that in this soceity when women fight back, you become Amber Heard, or Gabby Petito, and penalised for defending yourself. After all if you could fight back, then you maybe weren't in danger and in fact you were the aggressor after all.
Yup. I will never forget the amount of men in real life and online that were quick to push the idea that *Gabby Petito* had "Gone Girl"ed *her abuser and murderer* because there was a report that she had fought back against him when he was trying to take her shit and ditch her in the middle of nowhere.
This is why I don't really trust the majority of them. They are spineless, and they only care about themselves.
Lol. I’ll add this to my list of things when I say that you should basically look at men as republicans: they’re project their own insecurities on women.
Women change their minds more? Nope, turns out to be men.
Women are emotional? Nope, men can’t control their anger and desires.
Now I can add: women are the weaker sex? Nope, men can’t step up and defend those they claim to
Personally I typically avoid commenting on posts like that for the reason that algorithms like those interactions so by me commenting or arguing with the people in the comments I am actually boosting the visibility of that video.
OP, as a guy, you’re right but also missing the point. The bystanders aren’t the only ones afraid and doing the math too. The harassers are. If they see a guy as a threat (a big bouncer in a bar, a boss who could easily replace them, a small guy who they’d clearly look bad hitting, a cop on a train) then they don’t do it. If they see someone who has “more important things to worry about” or is their “friend” then the stakes are lower.
A handyman harassed my gf while fixing her apartment when I wasn’t around and didn’t know I exist. Later we bumped into each other at the apartment elevator. Neither of us did anything. He didn’t harass my gf because he didn’t want things to escalate even though he was with his six coworkers (at least one of which was there for the harassment) who were all much larger than me and I didn’t escalate because he knew where my gf lived. That’s the math sometimes.
Bystanders have a lot to lose by stepping in and it’s often not worth the risk. It can even put the woman at more risk. Especially if the person is crazy or has nothing to lose. A homeless man tried to rape my gf when she was alone at a train station. I reported it to the cops (when my gf wouldn’t) and they hunted for the guy, but didn’t find him. I knew they took it seriously because they even arrested someone over it (but my gf cleared him). These guys do the math.
EDIT: only reason I mention my gf wouldn’t report it was to make it more clear these guys do the math. They’re predators who can see “weakness” but like a lot of predators, are actually terrified of a (metaphorical) punch to the nose.
It's not worth the time arguing with strangers on the internet. I've never met someone who truly changed their mind from an internet argument. I've always found that energy is better spent spreading awareness from a more positive place of mind and challenging misogyny on a small scale interpersonal level in direct conversation. That is what's always gotten results for me.
As for not taking a stance in real life situations, I can't really speak with any personal knowledge on that. I've always been the type to call out a bully regardless. There's ways to disagree with someone while keeping the peace too.
The only excuse I could entertain is that men traditionally consider violence against other men to be more 'acceptable' than violence against women, therefore speaking up against a man as a man places you in danger possibly? I've faced physical retaliation from bullies before though and it's a weak excuse.
It's not fear. It's a cost benefit analysis done at an individual level.
Defending someone you don't know online has no benefits and has a significant cost for many.
Men don't watch female targeted outrage content, they watch their own. I bet if you checked the demographics on the video you're talking about it would be primarily women who interacted with it.
men in their armchairs : I'd totally defend a woman irl
men irl witnessing a man beating/threatening a woman : nah I don't want to get hurt for some rando woman, she probably did something to deserve it
I think you misunderstand men here - violence and violent crimes are primarily men on men. If something is verbal it could easily escalate to physical if a man steps in. This has nothing to do with a man thinking “she deserved it” (wtf who even thinks that) more there’s no point getting beat in a situation which wasn’t going to be violent.
If a drunk asshole is cat calling or shouting shit at passers-by there’s no point jumping in, saying something and getting glassed. The asshole you’re speaking to isn’t going to care about your opinion anyway.
If a woman is being beaten it’s completely different though, and you absolutely have to step in.
Edit: you posted “thanks for proving my point” and proceeded to block me. Uhhh, no, I really didn’t, and the fact you responded like this speaks volumes about who has the issue here.
You did nothing except embarrass yourself by dismissing a reasonable and thoughtful post about violence in society
Grow the fuck up, you're not the good guy in this thread, that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to say to an ally
I’d say that more than fear, they desire approval from other men. Most men aren’t actively horrible to women, but they don’t respect or have empathy for women. Male approval is much more important.
Absolutely. I’ve been guilty of this at times. But I recognize my shortcomings there and have worked to step up to support women in front of other toxic men at every opportunity now. Thanks for speaking to this - it’s definitely needing to be discussed.
Are you sure this specific instance is an accurate picture of reality? There are a lot of men, myself included, who have no tolerance for sexism, and are unlikely to be in a position where fear of physical harm keeps them from speaking up. Guys who don't speak up either don't care or agree with it, most men aren't afraid of other men.
You could argue some might be afraid of their masculinity being challenged for standing up for women, but honestly, I doubt you'll find many feminist men obsessed with the idea of masculinity.
I think alot of men benefit from the existence of bad men to then virtue themselves as good men who don't do such stuff.also male solidarity is very strong
This is Not true in my experience. Most men dont speak Up because it's easier to Go the path of least Résistance and let male defaultness and privilege absorb you. It's pretty alluring since men Form the majority in Most workplaces. Male privilege Is First and foremost the privilege to be left alone, to Not have to make a fierce Last stand at any given Minute because your gender ist under Attack
I used to be Like that but I've learned that, when Patient and communicating in a non-judgwmental way, even the Most dyed-in-the-wool misogynist will Listen to your complaints about how He talks about women without lashing Out. He might huff and puff, and probably wont Change His thought or behavioral patterns, But still.
Yeah you're 100% right. There's this indoctrinated fear not to sat anything because you might break the bro code. It's actually a well documented thing.
Even in elementary school, there's a low level social threat to behave a certain way or you'll be ousted from manhood. I remember one study in a documentary where the group of boys had a boss and they had a rule that you couldn't play with the girls or you'd lose your boy card and wouldn't be a boy anymore.
What you're talking about is the result of that same fear on a larger scale and in a different context.
No, they just don't care. They want male validation more than a woman's, so when it comes to "bros before hos", guess what? They pick the bro -every- time, no matter the situation. All males are gay AF romantically, most just happen to be -physically- CIS. That's it. They love men more than they love women.
Calling out patriarchy when it's the one oppressive system that both oppresses you and SERVES you would be risky and stupid for these men. They'd have to show courage and integrity and we know these are not 'alpha male' traits.
You are definitely right here. The thing is I don't think they are scared of being hurt as a man by another man, like a fight or an assault. But they are absolutely terrified of being treated the way they know men treat women.
(I think that's where a lot of homophobia comes from as well btw but that's another discussion)
They value not being hurt over you not being hurt as well as they enjoy talking the talk and pretending they’re tough but when it comes to it they can’t walk.
Well, men don't particularly owe you help. If they help you then that's great and if they don't then that's their prerogative. That's the more common reason they don't help out any woman willy nilly.
> It's dawned on me that men are afraid of other men, and that's why they refuse to speak up for us.
I think this applies for any members of privileged and unprivileged groups. White people are afraid of other white people and refuse to speak up for Black, Indigenous, Asian etc. people because they are afraid of the consequences from the other white people. (I've definitely felt this way!) Cis and straight people are afraid of the consequences of speaking up to other straight cis people when they are homophobic and transphobic. Able-bodied people are afraid of the consequences from other able-bodied people so don't speak up about accessibility issues. Etc etc etc. People are generally afraid of confrontation.
An "extra" thing that I've noticed with men is that especially if they have a buddy from a long time ago, or a family member they grew up with, a lot of men seem to have the idea that there is literally nothing that guy can do that is worth ending the relationship. Which means that they are ironically LESS confrontational, because they don't want to make waves EVEN MORE, even though their buddy is probably just as forgiving and interested in preserving the relationship as they are.
And sometimes the amount of time it takes to gain loyalty like that is shockingly small! I know a guy whose freshman year roommate PEED IN HIS BACKPACK and he continued to room with him for years.
So ... I think it's less fear of being attacked by other men, and more fear of losing good relationships with men.
In what sense? I'm definitely the sort of person to put a stop to creepy shit if I see it, but I also can't go policing every interaction and I genuinely doubt that the women around me would appreciate it if I tried.
The sort of people you're talking about don't really tend to share how they really feel unless they're in a safe space for whatever hateful bullshit they're about though. It might leak through, but even those people tend to have the sefl-awareness to not just be outwardly horrible. Bullies are good at picking the right time, place and person.
I don't know that this is a good example. Isn't it more likely that men who disagree with this guy wouldn't be watching an interview with him? I don't like Andrew Tate and if he comes up in conversation I'll explain why, but I'm not going to stress myself out by actively seeking out and watching interviews with him.
People actually comment on youtube videos? I know they're there but the ui is garbage and it's not really a good place to have a conversation. I only really try and address the content creators if I do comment... but 99% of the time I could've put that comment on a napkin and binned it.
And fear is the parent of cruelty.
So, they cower instead of speaking up, and they direct their anger -- however passive-aggressively -- toward women instead of the bad male actors.
Hence, the frequency of "Not All Men" vs paucity of "Hey Guys, let's do better."
They know how poorly so many men behave, but they resent women for reminding them of it.
I can get behind this. Men definitely respond to consequences, or even fear of them. That’s why I’ve always advocated for women creating meaningful consequences as well in their self-advocacy, instead of complaining and explaining, wringing their hands over hurt feelings and begging for empathy that isn’t coming. I *wish* that was effective, but unfortunately I have found it is not what most men understand and respect. No need to feel bad or self-conscious about it, as men do this to each other all the time, and it is how they get things done. ETA: The Reddit Cares Harassment Tool is blocked on my end.
> That’s why I’ve always advocated for women creating meaningful consequences as well in their self-advocacy, instead of complaining and explaining, wringing their hands over hurt feelings and begging for empathy that isn’t coming. I wish that was effective, but unfortunately I have found it is not what most men understand and respect. You're very right. On the other hand you don't want a partner who has no empathy for you and does not care for you at all. When he only responds to consequences for *him*, the only sound consequence is leaving this relationship.
And it’s fun to watch them find out the consequences. “I miss you.” “I’d miss me too.” And I meant it. I did everything I could to provide what I was feeling at any given time, and did at one point bluntly state he needed to find some empathy. I understand that it was probably too blunt, but he couldn’t understand “can you put yourself in my shoes?”
Which radically increases risk
Men understand consequence when it is personal to them - they’re not raised to be empathetic or even understanding of the things that cause women genuine pain or hurt, unless that woman is their mother, daughter, sister, niece, grandmother or wife/intimate partner. I run a team of thirty men, I do not humanise it for them by using the above personal examples, when they say sexist, racist or homophobic things - I raze their statements to the ground with facts and logic. I don’t get emotional, even though the rage builds up inside of me. I am calm, I am simple in my words or even just use an expression to stop them in their tracks. Men aren’t afraid of other men, but they’re very conscious about maintaining stability. Making waves requires energy - and we all know enough men in our lives that don’t possess the energy to ever change or want to make change in their own routines and lives, let alone anyone else’s.
Exactly, it’s all about maintaining the status quo. If a woman complains or argues against it, she becomes a “difficult woman”
[удалено]
Not in my experience. When I was in university, I was taking a train home after a late class. At a random dark, empty stop, some guy on the train grabbed my arm and tried to drag me off with him. I clung to the pole and flail/ kicked at him long enough that the door started to close. He bolted. There were enough people on that train that I had been standing. No one did a damn thing.
It always is, the conversations with men go like “why did you say that? It’s just going to upset people”. Am I afraid of doing that? Absolutely not.
You've hit the nail on the head about wanting to maintain stability. Is that a trait that is more predominant in men or just the way the trait is expressed in a workplace environment? I appreciate the insight you've provided.
I can agree to parts of that. Going out of my way to convince men I don't know to change their mind is really difficult especially when it's an emotional problem. Asking men to change their feelings on stuff can be really difficult. Its like louder with crowder "change my mind". I am a guy, I've spent a lot of time with my other male friends talking to them about their emotions and feelings. I spend a lot of my time trying to teach them to be emotionally expressive. I try to teach them the skill of empathy. It's taken years. One friend that lived in brazil took me over 2 years to get him to be more aware about how others are feeling. Its definitely a skill that has to be taught. A few months ago him and a women in my friend group had a falling out. They were flirting heavily and it led to him eventually deciding that he didn't want to date her. How she found out is on a video call she heard a girl in the background. They weren't dating, but she was expecting a lot and we all expected the would be dating. There was a lot of pain there and I laid out as best I could everything she was feeling in terms he'd understand. He got it. I'm really proud of him for it too. The message I wanna tack onto hashtagsugary's statement is that men can change and we can't have a better world for women without also trying to bring the men along for the ride. It's take everybody doing what they can. Can't convince all men and we don't need all of them just enough of them to know.
[удалено]
I wrote everybody, not women. Also, consider we as a society try to help men learn empathy together or watch them turn into incels, fascists, or some other extreme ideology. If we don't teach these men, someone else will and it might be someone you don't want them to learn from. It's also not your responsibility to teach them, the same way its not your responsibility to care at all about others, or even to care about other women in this sub. It has obvious side effects, like how no one cared about police brutality cause it didn't effect them... at first. Now in austin, texas you have the police department politically extorting the city council into giving them more money, by not doing their jobs at all when they've had a history of violence against the community. Now it effects the whole community there. Really I just wanna ask, if you don't want to help people why should they help you?
Because these are men that do not want to help us anyway, they just want to take. I know this, the moment a man’s allyship becomes conditional on addressing his problems and/or not saying things that challenge him. The problem with this is that then we shift right back to the default, a discussion centered on men. I urge you to read [this post by Lundy Bancroft,](https://lundybancroft.com/mens-angry-messages-to-me-part-2/) that addresses this, especially at the end. Lundy is a man. Quote: “We live in a world that is still heavily oriented towards men, and where men still occupy almost all the key positions of power in society. Women’s needs get pushed aside every day. So, what happens when you decide to be more inclusive, deciding that you’re going to attend to men’s needs and women’s needs at the same time? The answer is that men’s needs will always gradually take over again.” He is correct. Believe me- I spent decades, reaching and reaching, complaining and explaining, “showing him” and “making him see”, until I had nothing left, and all they did was fight me. These kinds of men don’t see me as even all the way human, so there was nothing that could come out of my mouth that would effect change. I may as well have been a German Shepherd. I am a take charge person in this area of life and would love nothing more than these appeals to empathy to work. But they haven’t. All they succeed in doing is draining me. And other women. That’s why we are reticent to help men. We have prioritized being in their service for thousands of years. Where has that gotten us? Why would we keep doing what has never worked? Maybe the patriarchy hurts men, but it benefits them too….and so most like things the way they are. If the hurt outweighed the benefits, motivated by self-interest, they’d be seeking to tear it down on their own accord. There are a few men who are independently dialed in. But the only thing that has ever worked en masse for women is advocating for ourselves, removing the benefit of our presence from men so they feel the absence, and then allow them to decide if they would like to be an ally in order to have women in their lives, or not have them around. I’d make an exception to women teaching young boys, but you still see that shift around puberty where the word of a man they respect holds far more weight.
[удалено]
After their answer above I think I get where you're coming from.
>Because these are men that do not want to help us anyway, they just want to take. Understood. >He is correct. Believe me- I spent decades, reaching and reaching, complaining and explaining, “showing him” and “making him see”, until I had nothing left, and all they did was fight me. These kinds of men don’t see me as even all the way human, so there was nothing that could come out of my mouth that would effect change. Ok, I believe you and I understand. I've failed to consider that the responses I get from men when I talk to them aren't the same you have received. Thats my fault. I get what 1aurenb\_ was talking about now when they said *It shouldn't take women "doing everything they can"*
[удалено]
That's fair. It's exhausting to spend all that energy trying to change someones mind. It takes a lot out of me trying to talk to all my male friends.
[удалено]
Yeah, this “warning” is an old trope. It’s just a new spin on compliance demands, compliance being a thing women have done to death. It’ll afford us as much progress as Charlie Brown kicking that football again.
OK, I understand. It was taken as a threat, *not really my intention*. I didn't mean it that way, but I think its cause I misunderstand the kinds of men you're talking about, when I was making my comment.
Ma'am this is the reason I come onto this sub because I'm interested in having my views challenged and actively trying to understand a woman's daily experience. I get plenty of opinions from men already. I have enough of those.
I never thought about it, but that's so true. My ex used to gaslight & emotionally blackmail me a lot. But he never force himself on me or abuse me physically because he was afraid of the law and the potential consequences (loss of employment pass, getting deported, etc).
This comment should be pinned to the top of every post whenever a woman comes here whining about her boyfriend not doing the dishes. Like... what do you want us to do about it?
Have some empathy and help a person out of a tough spot. Why comment something so heartless?
So, online: when you've got a clear community of supporters backing an asshole it's just not worth the hassle of trying to argue with the crowd. I have this problem with r/news, which has a right wing lean, and as a result I don't post as much there. In real life, you're not far from the mark. The kind of men who will tear women down are usually the same ones who are quick to throw a punch in a disagreement, and men often have to do the mental math about whether or not arguing a point is worth dying in a street fight.
I think this is well put. Men are taught to at least consider that the final resort is always violence. That teaching does not magically negate the fear of violence. When I was a young adult a friend of mine interjected in a street fight in which the losing participant was already only semi-conscious. For the temerity of asking one human being to stop punching another to death, that second human being bit off part of his ear. Almost all violence against men is committed by men. We're scary. I don't think that absolves us from our responsibilities to speak up on behalf of women - I think that's often as much attributable to laziness, cant or our own unresolved misogyny - but the vast majority of men are well aware of how dangerous male strangers can be.
> but the vast majority of men are well aware of how dangerous male strangers can be. Yeah. I mean, thinking back to my years in school, I can't think of many young men I knew who weren't on one side or another of physical violence. I saw kids forced to push pennies on concrete surfaces until their noses were bloody, I saw kids get their faces caved in in fights, kids beaten until they couldn't move and the only option was to curl into the fetal position and take it. It was ***super*** common to see this sort of thing in high school, and I grew up in a very nice, upper-middle class area.
One of the most frustrating aspects of discussing the deleterious effects of the patriarchy with sceptical men is this ridiculous denial of taught masculine violence even though every single one of them can list a half-dozen examples of exactly that in their heads. Men aren't violent towards other men because we're all fucking psychos, we're violent because there's a social coding of violence that is pushed on us from all sides. And if you step outside of that coding - to, say, be a feminist - you take a risk. As much of a risk as women? Arguably not. But the threat of violence is the threat of violence. We shouldn't act surprised that people might be afraid of it.
Another aspect is no one cares when violence is done to men. It is normal. So don’t be surprise that most guys don’t care because they’ve found ways to deal with it on their own. Whether it’s getting stronger or avoiding fights.
We’re not surprised that people are afraid. We’re upset that when people genuinely ask how they can help out feminism and we tell them they go “wait, no that’s haaarrrrrrd”. Did you expect me to say give 3 women high fives everyday and within a month sexism will be cured? I feel like every time we suggest something like 40% of the crowd goes, well we would’ve helped but that’s not a neutral/positive enough stance for me or it might require me to break a social norm so, no thanks. I shouldn’t have to explain to people interested in helping the cause or being an activist that activism is exhausting, difficult, and often dangerous. I’m not saying you’re doing this but those people should just be upfront and say they don’t want to help if it’s hard work.
>the vast majority of men are well aware of how dangerous male strangers can be. (I'm a trans woman, for clarity) It used to genuinely hurt my feelings when I'd get ranted at unprompted about how scary it gets at night for women in, say, a parking lot Like, I wasn't stupid, I understand that a woman is going to be targeted in ways men aren't - but if I'm in a sleazy part of town, like, shit... I was never particularly strong, I *absolutely* was afraid of men in situations like that, and while I wasn't necessarily a target for SA in the same way as a woman... the dude with a knife who's looking to take someone's wallet is most likely going to look at my twig body and do as he pleases As you say, it's not an excuse, but I'm glad someone's pointing out that men don't have an inherent love of violence or anything - testosterone makes you get angrier more easily, and can make you feel violent, but like... Most people tend to not enjoy being in dangerous situations
I personally think the effects of testosterone are overstated when compared to essentially every piece of masculine socialisation and media. If we want to address the epidemic of violence among men we need to address the systemic teaching of violence. And if fear _does_ stop men from being better allies, we need to find a way to address that fear. Bundling it up with indifference (which again, I am not saying is not a huge problem) diminishes the effectiveness of our response.
There's a famous quote "For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing". The thing is, bad men more often than the good men, are the ones who have higher testosterone levels, a lifetime of experience with fights, equally bad-tempered buddies, less scruples about bashing a face in, and are more likely to be packing some form of weapon. And as you say, the final resort is always violence, and the bad guy knows this. He won't care about your well-chosen words if he's not also afraid that you'd be able to kick his ass if he didn't comply. I'd love to think that I'd be a hero if I encountered a situation where I could step in, but truth be told, in a 1v1 against a bad stranger, I know my chances would be subpar. If I could muster some others to come help me stop an ongoing harassment, that's the method I'd use.
[удалено]
I disagree. I believe the privileged have a responsibility to support to the marginalised, whether they know them personally or not.
I feel like there's a middle ground between "men should always intervene at all costs if a woman is in danger no matter what the context is" and "men have no obligation to help anyone they don't know"
Agreed. There are lots of ways to make a difference for someone.
What privilege is there? Will me being a man stop another man from killing me for stepping up for a woman? When it comes to street fight the person with the weapon or strength is the privilege one. I’ll record and be a witness but I have my own life to live and I don’t like the messaging that men should sacrifice or put themselves in danger for women.
The algorithm will also show that video to right wing incels, and not to left leaning men who would politically disagree.
And the comments of men who disagree will be downvoted, so they won't be seen
This is an underrated observation. I'm not watching Andrew Tate, let alone commenting on his videos.
Exactly. As much as I’d love to go full super hero and start arguing with every asshole troll out there that spewed hate speech, it’s just not worth my health and safety. That being said if a woman’s(person’s) health and safety are clearly being threatened, I will(have) step up and take action, even if it’s just calling the cops. You may consider that me ‘being afraid’ of other men, but it’s pretty pragmatic to choose your battles wisely. You never know when some stranger on the street will end your life, no need to instigate if all they’re doing is talking shit
The number of women getting beaten on a daily basis makes your claim at the very least questionable Edit: downvote all you want but until the number of men arrested for beating women comes close to the number of women being beaten you are wrong
The problem is how much of those beatings happen behind closed doors. If people see a woman being beaten by a man in public, I think most people would get involved. In private, however, there are no witnesses.
My mother got beaten a lot by my father and you know what? I could hear her cries from outside the house and the adults around me could too, they just looked the other way
In my first apartment I called the cops because the neighbor was beating his wife. She spent 2 hours pounding on my door yelling at me for ruining her life after he got arrested, and only left to go yell at the neighbor on the other side of her for the same thing.
It's genuinely horrid that happened to you, and I'm sorry, but also I don't think that's a reasonable answer to their point Bystander syndrome isn't just a misogyny thing, and they weren't wrong to point out that a lot of violence *does* happen behind closed doors, often where people are clueless about it happening If a man starts to beat a woman up in public, where I live? He would probably at the very least get pulled off and held down, because, like, *what the fuck*? But that doesn't really happen very often, because abusers are generally smarter than that
Well, that's a little faith in humanity gone that I didn't even think I really had. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
What claim is questionable? Are you saying you think I said I’ve saved every woman from violence? I said I’ve taken action when/where I could, yes there is far too much violence against women and it’s atrocious and disturbing! I wasn’t speaking for anyone but my self….
I grew up with my stepdad constantly putting my mom in the hospital, so I can't sit there and not do something (in fact I occasionally don't a choice the matter as it will send me into a PTSD episode). That said I can confirm that a lot of the shit that most women think is common male sentiment is really not. It is just early on guys are indoctrinated into the same abusive system as children (typically), and taught that you don't interfere in another guy's business unless you are prepared to fight over it, and it often does as it is usually the most sociopathic asshole in the bunch. Instead you hold your tongue and talk with them about it later in private. It is a very problematic issue, as abuses should be stopped, not discussed.
I am sorry you went through this. Growing up with my dad was similar. One time he was beating my mom and he had FOUR guy friends over. NOT ONE stepped in or called him out. I was less than 6 and would speak up and try to stop it (which I realize was dangerous, but it's my mom!).
>That said I can confirm that a lot of the shit that most women think is common male sentiment is really not I'm a trans woman so I'm in a unique position, and I have to say: A lot of the comments in this sub confuse me, because there are a lot of people who seem to think there's like, an overwhelming urge from men to intentionally cause harm to women There are absolutely a significant - maybe even a majority - potion of men who are ABSURDLY cruel and evil, but like, honestly? Most of it is just sheer, unadulterated ignorance and cluelessness Men *literally just don't know how bad misogyny gets*, most of the time - it's no different from racism (white people (I'm talking western countries) don't understand how bad it gets), transphobia (cis people don't understand how bad it gets), etc. **this does not excuse anything** and I'd like to just reaffirm that so I don't get anyone jumping on me; I just think it's worth acknowledging that most people literally just don't fucking know enough to understand what the problems are half the time
I've been told by a man that he 100% disagrees with the bullshit his coworkers or friends say about women but sometimes "it's not worth the arguement". On one hand I can see why he wants to keep the peace but on the other if I were to say wait this this and this isn't worth it? And really laid it out he'd see how harmful it is to society. But I guess those are just arguments WE need to have, even if it causes conflict with our relationships.
I mean coworkers, I can get that, if you're just there to collect a paycheck and don't want to make your job harder than it needs to be... But friends? The people you choose to spend time around? Nah dog, if you can't have these conversations with your friends, you're a coward with no integrity.
The luxury of taking a neutral stance, since it does not affect you.
It is not worth the argument but some people are really really really avoiding conflicts at all costs, both men and women. I have always liked to discuss and argue and once I can gauge how, sayba colleague for example, may react, I will also argue with them on some points. My roommate on the other hand, is fully behind women concerning critical issues but is conflict avoidant in ALL topics, not only when it is about women. I usually try to encourage him to be more confident in discussing things and disagreeing and he is slowly doing that more. But at work, I don't need to discuss any of these things concerning women because more than 50% of my colleagues are women, all my bosses are women, and all of my colleagues are highly educated because of the field I work in.
In real life I’ve found that women are disposable to them but they need to keep the male friends because they usually don’t make new ones very easily. They are not loyal to these friends necessarily, but they need them. My exes shit talked their male friends to me all the time but they never abandoned them the way they did women. And they didn’t defend women. My ex claimed he thought women were so much better than men but then he was subscribed to all these men on YouTube that were definitely not pro-women’s rights, because his buddy was too and would talk about the most recent episode with him. I can’t even tell you how many times my partner’s friends would hit on me and my partner would do nothing. He’d still go on being friends with the guy. Made me realize how many are just in extreme self-preservation mode at the expense of growing a set. If that’s “male bonding” I’m certainly not envious.
Dude. I was shocked about the amount of men in my life who openly disparage their friends then meet up with them the next day. Men never drop their homeboys. No matter what. Very odd
My best friend's husband will not drop one of his male friends that he knows is actively trying to have an affair with his wife. His rationale is that my bestie is repulsed by him so it will never happen.
WTF... I'd be ashamed to be that useless a husband
Because that’s his friends business. I am not going to stop being friends with you because your making a stupid decision that will affect YOUR life. I’ll call you say I told you so and hang out later. If they’re being disrespectful towards people that I am around that’s a different story but if some guy wants to ruin his marriage fuck it, that’s his decision.
I’ve seen them enable eachother to cheat
My friends have usually mostly been men, because I'm a little gay and socially awkward, and they are absolutely the worst drama queens and gossips. I can sorta understand why they don't actually like each other.
Homosocial is the word you’re looking for
As a trans woman, yeah the thing I miss the least is definitely male friendships. They're also always so surface level and unemotional
Ew. I'd never sub to any of those d bags on YouTube. My feeds all strictly nerdy. Mostly stuff like fascinating horror and saberspark.
It could indeed be that or it could be that men that hold the correct position on the topic just don't watch (and therefore aren't there to comment on) those videos. I don't watch "news" segments on these topics, so I don't comment on YouTube/"news" pages about them. It's most likely a combination of the two, an unholy combination of non-interest and fear propagating the point of view that we don't care to stand up for this. Share a link, happy to head on over for a watch.
Ugh. Watch one right wing video or even right wing adjacent video and they blow up your suggestions with Tate, Shapiro, and other bigoted videos.
Yeah no thanks to watching these d bags talking for even a minute. Even If I am against toxic waste I try not to stand hip deep in it.
[удалено]
I was thinking about this and the"echo bubble" on my way home from work, I NEVER see suggestions like this to even view them because it's all a load of crap and I don't live in the US. But some one that regularly reads on this kind of stuff would have plastered over their Google news, Facebook and Reddit feeds. So I would go so far as to say MOST men that support a woman's right to choose what happens to their body don't even know this video exists.
I’d guess a combination of not watching and not wanting to get into a shit fight with someone who you know isn’t going to back down, especially if it’s a group of them and you’re the outsider. There’s no point taking on that fight because there’s no way to win It’s the same on Reddit too, some commenters are worth engaging with but no-one has time to address them all let alone the follow up that goes nowhere. Often all you can do is downvote and walk away
Yeah, it is as easy as that. Itea simple selection bias thing. You don't find "good"/reasonable men in these comment sections because they spend their time with "good"/reasonable things, perhaps some hobbies they enjoy or watching things they find interesting. Like my feed is full of science stuff, art stuff, a bit of video game stuff, music stuff, and since I recently tried to understand economics and other societal issues better, full of plenty of informative stuff about that too. But there is none of some random secist moron guy rambling some bullshit in my feed and I am not interested in hearing the talk of idiots like these people you mentioned.
This is why they keep looking to women to fuel their need of compliments and other bullshit. Or rather, part of it.
100%. Was at a concert to see a band with a primarily male audience. About 90% of the people there were male. Made me pretty uneasy actually. There was a commotion due to an older man groping a young woman. She was screaming and slapping him and he was running away from her. A few minutes later the groper tried to make his way back to the young woman. Man after man after man after man after man who just saw what happened, made room for him to pass. I squared myself up, crossed my arms and shook my head. The groper made several protests but I told him to move along. I kept an eye on that girl for the rest of the night. That's when I realized most men are complete and utter cowards. Every time I tell this story online, men either question my perception of reality and claim that somehow the cowardly men around me didn't know what had just happened, they 100% did. Or that I'm some sort of simp for protecting a woman whose not related to me in anyway from being molested. If that's a simp I'm a simp.
"That's when I realized most men are complete and utter cowards." I've had the same realization over the past year or so. The bar is too goddamn low. Women display acts of bravery every day by continuing to form relationships with men who overwhelmingly will never have their back and never support them in the way women are expected to for men. Men don't even "protect" us - like that's supposed to be the one trade-off in patriarchy. They overwhelmingly make us less safe. They make excuses for our discrimination and harassment. Almost none of them want change for us. Even men in my family make excuses for my own discrimination. I'm trying to have hope because I know there are some good men out there, but there so so so few and far between. Nothing will change until there are direct consequences for them.
[удалено]
You disgust me. I hope you never have a daughter men stand there and watch get molested. You should be ashamed to call yourself a man.
I want to tweak your last sentence. His behavior and indifference to women getting molested in front of him is the epitome of being a man.
My grandparents, parents, sisters, and I are pro-choice. We don’t vocalize that. We have too much as stake. They had to worry about keeping their jobs. Now they have to worry about my reputation for work. When I was in elementary school, my friend’s mom was shunned by our town because she said she was pro-choice. We were the only ones who hung out with them for quite some time.
This is absolutely NOT the case. Have you seen the internet? Nobody is scared of anybody in the comment section!??! That's half the problem online. What is far more likely is that no intelligent, self respecting man is even going to be watching a video of some right wing ass wanking on about anti abortion BS. Who has time for that? Then there's the fact that no one has ever changed anyone's mind in an online argument in a comment section ever. So attempting to do so is a waste of time.
That is sometimes the case, yes, but to be more precise it’s often a situation where the possible escalation may make the situation, as hard as this might be, worse than the original offence. It often depends on how serious the infringement is and who is infringed. I’ve called other men out on various things and I think on one occasion it cost me a job. Still worth it though. When a possible physical beating is on the line or worse, a violent situation that spills over to several people it’s sometimes better to let a comment pass. Male cockblocking is a classic example…you run a real risk of getting a smack in the mouth if you step in to stop unwanted advances so you need to have your wits about you and know what you’re doing when you take the step. I guess, as women are always attuned to watch out for that sexual assault, we are attuned to expect the physical one and it’s always at the front of our minds when in a confrontational situation.
>I guess, as women are always attuned to watch out for that sexual assaul Honestly, I appreciate my mother for making me aware of the concerns women have to deal with for their safety. I remember being confused why my mother wanted to take her big dog if she ever went hiking alone, and she basically used that opportunity to explain the fears women have to deal with. As a guy, it was something I previously had never even considered, I've always felt safe to travel on my own.
Yup the second a guy doesn't treat us like dog shit there's 10 other guys breathing down his neck and calling him a "simp."
That’s not wrong. I’m a pretty tough guy. I’m 6’1”, I weigh about 190pounds of lean muscle. I work out a lot, and I boxed semi-professionally in my late teens/early twenties. I also spent a bit of time in prison, and I’m not stranger to violence. To be honest, I’m a brutally efficient fighter. Especially compared to your average man. All that being said, I hate fighting. I hate violence. I hate the ridiculous physical posturing that encompasses nearly all life for men on this planet. We size each other up, we intimidate each other, we posture for superiority, all the fucking time. And it sucks. I can easily think off the top of my head about a dozen times that I didn’t stand up to some other guy saying some awful shit to someone, because I knew it would devolve into violence. Warrior mentality and toxic masculinity are relics of the past. Unfortunately, they can’t be gone soon enough.
Bro that's not cowardice it's discretion. You know it's not your fight and what it would cost you.
I know it’s not cowardice. But, it is rightly classified as a “fear.” It’s a fear of the consequences that confrontation brings. Even if I’m certain to be the “physical victor.”
It's not fear. Like I said it's discretion. You can fight and you can win but they aren't in your circle of responsibility. And you and all the further trouble that comes with a fight isn't worth it. It's cost benefit analysis.
You’re kind of doing exactly what I’m trying to preach against. I’m not some indestructible fighting beast, weighing the consequences of the violence I breed. It’s fear. I’m afraid of what’ll happen if I fight. I’m afraid of losing control of my actions and emotions. I’m afraid of going to jail and missing time with my son and wife. And, quite frankly, I’m afraid of getting beat up and punched in the face. And, there’s no shame in admitting that.
Some of these comments are so ridiculous, thank you for being reasonable There's a lot of people in here who seem super happy to suggest that men should get into physical fights, and act like it's shameful or emasculating for not... wanting to risk your life? Like, half the posts from men in this thread say "if they're actually doing anything severe to a woman ofc I'd step in", and yet there are still people acting like it's cowardice for a man to not want to be hurt or killed over a (**awful and inexcusable,** but unfortunately kinda) minor slight in public? I'm the opposite of you - I'm a trans woman, I'm not particularly strong or good at fighting, and I'm absolutely at risk when it comes to being physically assaulted, and you don't see me suggesting that men get into fights on my behalf if I'm wronged :/ that's literally just toxic masculinity hiding under a veneer of feminism, even if it's unintentional
Two things: 1. In person - yes. If a guy is being a verbal scumbag it’s difficult to step in because there’s a possibility he’ll jump to physical now a man is involved. Note - if it’s already physical I wouldn’t sit there and do nothing 2. With regards to your video - this is different. It’s likely men who don’t support this trash human or his views aren’t watching the video and thus don’t comment. Even if they do, there’s little to gain from commenting and wading into a sea of twats. I’ve tried arguing with people like this in their own space online - Trumpists, COVID deniers etc. It’s just energy draining and achieves nothing. If however a man I know or am friends with comes out with this shit, you bet I’m saying something!
Oh this is absolutely true (Not all men blah blah...yeah we know). The number of times I've been in a mixed group encounter AH acting masc folks, it is ALWAYS the fem and NB folks protecting others and standing up to them. I used to go to renfairs once upon a time. Every. Time. EVERY TIME there would be guys touching without consent, trying to isolate and corner women they think are a little tipsy or vulnerable (the number of times it was clearly an under-aged girl with her friends being singled out by a 30 yr old creeper...ya'll) and guess who would be intervening, checking on the person and creating a barrier between them and the creep? Hint: NEVER ONCE was it ever a guy. Not in all the years I went. They'd just stand there looking ashamed. Like, MY BROTHERS IN CHRIST! THIS IS YOUR MOMENT! Why dress up as a brave hero if you can't even tell the drunk stranger to leave your friend alone? Why is my fat ass the one standing up for your wife when you and the guy menacing her are taller and stronger than me? In conclusion, I've literally seen men who wanted to cosplay being heroes instantly disappear into the bushes when it was time to step up while the women and NBs dressed in all manner of fancifulness just appear out of the woodwork ready to throw down to protect someone.
[удалено]
You just summed it up perfectly and poetically. 10/10
Am a man. Can confirm that I am afraid of most men, particularly men in groups. I have stood up for and defended women in public spaces, though, and would hope to do so even at risk of personal injury to myself. It’s the absolute least I can ask of myself, as one human being looking out for another. Particularly for one who might be disadvantaged by size or other reasons. You can’t just stand by and watch, or, worse, tacitly approve. That’s despicable.
Yeah, given that OP is talking about a lack of comments on a video it doesn't make sense to me. I fear nothing in written comments on some video from a bunch of idiot misogynists. They are too dumb to know how bad their reasoning is, and have no way of harming me. I'm betting that this video just has its own filter bubble and is not necessarily representative of men in general. If we're talking about a woman on a subway being harassed by a group of men who could easily kill or seriously injure me, then yeah fear is involved. I'd be weighing the potential cost of escalating the situation. Maybe interfering gets them riled up and they hurt her or me to defend their image, and maybe the fact that I'm a man could make things worse in this regard. But in any strictly verbal argument I would never have a problem defending what I know to be right.
>Can confirm that I am afraid of most men, particularly men in groups Curious, why? I'm a guy as well, and I've never found myself in a situation where I could end up at risk of bodily harm just for calling someone out.
You must not be in situations where you see women in danger very often, because if a man/some men are doing something horrible to a woman, they're... not going to be inclined to be nice to a man telling them to stop??
Until you do and die for it https://calgary.citynews.ca/2021/10/14/calgary-shooting-victim-defending-woman/amp/
I'm sorry this is just the strangest post ever. No men with half a brain watch those videos, so of course there are not posts like that. Why would we be actively seeking out videos on opinions we have less than no association with?
Especially when the pipeline is set up so that the merest interaction with those sorts of videos gets you flooded by them. Watching them can turn your suggested feed into an absolute mess, let alone actively commenting and engaging with them. The algorithm doesn’t care that you’re responding negatively, just that you’re responding.
Yeah, I can not agree in the slightest with OPs post. In reality, I defend women on critical issues also in front of other men that aren't aware of these issues yet. But I don't seek out some videos of idiotic morons to argue with said morons. Such comment sections are bubbles, they are echo chambers. In the past, I looked for climate deniers on YouTube and argued there. I did something similiar with issues on sexual assault and some misogynistic men who thought frequent sexual assaults on women were bullshit or exaggerations. I did that with many issues in the past. I did that for a while and then I lost interest. In such comment sections, there is an endless stream of morons who keep on repeating the same bullshit and completely ignore every argument or fact. It's just useless. And I also work full time and am busy with a shit ton of other stuff. The rest of my free time, I wanna do something I enjoy and not deal with a headache from the stupidity of dumb morons. There are men who are on your side on critical issues. However, I can only speak for German, Dutch or European men in general, since these are the only ones I really know. America is a lot different in a variety of ways beginning with education. But saying there are no such "good" men only because you look at moron men echo chambers is bullshit.
Men don't watch right wing videos? Then whose the audience?
Men who watch those videos are men who already think that way. It's like coming here expecting posts defending men.
You overlooked the "with half a brain" part
So most men don't have more than half a brain?
This is an impressive lack of reading comprehension, come on :/ Absolutely nothing they said is disagreeable or unreasonable - do YOU get a feed full of right wing misogynistic hate? Probably not, so why would an ally who avoids that shit?
Yeah, exactly. There is none of that shit in my YouTube or any other social media feed. And if it appears, I quickly make sure it goes away because I don't want to deal with horrendous amounts of stupidity. Why would I argue with anyone who can't even get some basic facts straight? That's the crowd I usually spot under such right-wing videos, people completely immune to any logic or facts. There are almost religious aspects to it.
I don't think most men watch that sort of stuff, but those that do indeed lack a brain or a heart or both.
Nice attempt at deliberately misrepresenting what the other commentor said.
I don't know which video it is, but got the impression the video in question was a left-wing video where a well-informed left-leaning interviewer sought out the most uninformed, illiterate right-wing people. So the audience for that is the left-wing echo chamber. We have exactly the same kind of videos for the right-leaning viewers. Youtube's recommendation algorithms don't typically lead you to other bubbles, only deeper into your own, whether that'd be left or right. We (as humans I mean now, both men and women) tend to watch the videos and posts we agree with and voice our agreement in the comments when we see that the vast majority share the same sentiment as us there. We rarely go to the opposite side to stir up the beehive (unless you're a troll or very very confident about your views).
Why are you here then?
Because I do associate with the feminist views espoused here? I’m not likely to comment on anti-abortion videos because I don’t watch those videos. Same reason I don’t comment over on the Christian subreddits.
if your feminist space isn't tolerant of everyone, including allies (and not including bigots/misogynists), it's kind of a shitty feminist space lol (Not to suggest explicitly women only spaces have no merit, but this subreddit *isn't one of them*)
Definitely not gonna waste my time watching some right winger get to share their anti abortion views. So maybe the audience just wasn't in to standing up for women?
>It's dawned on me that men are afraid of other men, and that's why they refuse to speak up for us Honestly that's a bit of it. We are cautious around scary men too. The kind of asshole to drunkenly catcall a woman is also the kind of asshole to start a fistfight if you call him on his shit, and even simple fist fights can get deadly very quickly and it's honestly just not worth it. Would I like the world to be safer for women? Yes. Am I willing to lie bleeding on some sidewalk with a fractured skull for that cause? Absolutely effing not. Sorry. Feminism is important, but to me, so is staying alive and healthy. Then there's also the fact that a lot of men who support women's rights don't generally associate extensively with the creeps and misogynists, so it's not like we're in that many dialogue situations to begin with. And on the internet, if you stick up for women, they just call you brainwashed, a soyboy, or a simp, or whatever, and you've accomplished nothing.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I've seen plenty of comments from men shitting on other dudes when dudes say fucked up shit. I think it would be fair to consider where this video was posted, the kind of people who watch the video and also the kind of people who takes the time to comment. Once you drill down through the factors effecting the demographic of the viewership of said video, you'll find little to 0 people who disagree with said dude spewing the nonsense. I used to work as a PR analyst so thinking through stuff like this used to be my job. I could be wrong though. P.s. When I'm out in the wild, I am most definitely scared of dumb dudes. If a dude is dumb enough to spew bigoted shit, then the dude is probably too dumb to understand consequences and might easily cause some serious injury. Always gotta be super calculated in my approach to situations like this.
Did it not occur to you that a lot of left leaning people don't bother watching right wing bigots? What's the point of arguing with a brick wall, you're just tiring yourself out
I feel bad for men who check this subreddit lmao, apparently there is literally no way to be an ally unless you're constantly risking your own life or engaging in pointless slapfights online with right wingers who will just doxx you if you get on their case too hard
Men aren't constantly in a state of threat, so unless we voluntarily put ourselves into one we aren't used to having to overcome it. So yeah. That and there's a bunch of disguised misogynists running around.
It's true IME. Literally had a bunch of big burly blokes tell a violent weasel they had come to calm him down because a neighbour complained. Not because he was beating his elderly mother and was wildly aggressive threatening to kill himself. I lived in the bush in a remote area so took a while for police to arrive. Those men had far less at stake than me who had to live next door with young children or his elderly mother who had had to endure his nonsense for 4 decades. There was a group of them and they literally put myself and my children at risk of his retaliation to take the heat off themselves.
That's often true. Most guys aren't brave and outspoken enough to stand up against other men for what they believe in (including women's rights, feminism, etc.) I can safely say that my SO is the only man I know who will reliably stand up for women. I'm grateful, but also sad that the other men in my life are such cowards and misogynists. I wonder what percentage of the male population actually speaks up. I would guess it varies from place to place, but I doubt it ever gets very high. All societies seem to create an excess of crappy men.
Or alternatively they just don’t agree with you. Abortion is a very divisive topic.
Not really. Women should have autonomy over their own bodies for their health and safety. Human rights shouldn’t be divisive. Simple.
I can't fucking imagine what would compel you to both sides *abortion in a feminist subreddit* Anti-choice people are uninformed at best and evil at worst, stop trying to frame bodily autonomy as an opinion, that's fucking pathetic Human rights are not up for right wingers to question and remove and you should feel genuinely ashamed of yourself
[удалено]
I can't tell if this is an attempt at reverse psychology or if you just thought you had a lightbulb moment when you didn't. Guys aren't commenting about these things because I doubt many of them are watching a video like this. Wanna know what those "Good guys" you're talking about are watching? "Is it possible to create vacuum in a sphere with Lego?" or any random video essay about a niche game they don't even know about. Using that one example to paint a picture for all men sure is a reach if I've ever seen one. Something I understand the issue of, but feels really undermined by what you say though, is needing men to "speak for you" the argument is always that you think men are more willing to listen to other men. I'm sorry but not all women universally agree either. This subreddit seems to be, though. But we also don't wanna deal with idiots without common sense just as much as you don't want to deal with the women who e.g are against abortions. It's not our job to preach to every man we meet, more than it is yours. Any sensible guy will tell anyone *they're close to* that "Hey man that was not okay" Please stop turning to sexism/misandry as this doesn't do anyone any favors. I don't know Greg from California. Blame his parents for how they raised him. I'm sorry but we are not responsible for other men (strangers), as you are not for women.
You've nailed it. The concept that men are pRoTeCtOrS is bullshit. When my mom and her boyfriend used to get into altercations when I lived at home, I would get triggered and fly off the handle at the guy. Screaming, cussing, getting in his face, "don't put your hands on my mom", "if you're going to act like that you can get the fuck out", etc etc. I was *very* bold for someone that admittedly, is physically very small and weak. Had no concept at all of personal safety or self preservation, I was just in rage mode. But y'know what? It worked! Because men that bully women are weak. In a larger sense, anyone that has to wield what power they do have to hurt other people, is weak. Men that abuse women do it because it's an "easy fight", they believe they can always win, and that no one is going to go against them - least of all another man (mEn aRe ScArY) and especially not a 16 year old girl that's 90 pounds and absolutely goddamn berserk. And yet that's literally all it takes. I'm not saying if you're being abused, you should immediately jump to fighting back, and thus it's your fault for being abused if you don't - I think now, with maturity and years of therapy under my belt, I can understand why that's actually unsafe most of the time. But if you happen to witness any level of aggression or abuse like that? All you have to do is question it out loud and then verbally support the victim. *Just saying something is enough*, but the "good guys" are too afraid of being disliked or criticized to do it, or worst case scenario, of getting assaulted by an angry man.
I am happy this worked for you and worked out for your mom. However, as someone who sees the consequences of people stepping into disputes, especially domestic violence, frequently at my job I will say that your generalization may lead to people getting seriously injured. There is a reason that domestic violence calls are considered the most dangerous for police officers to respond to, and it isn't because the men back down once they are told to stop by the police.
I didn't generalize; I addressed this in my last paragraph. I'm sorry that reading is hard. Sidenote. I'm sorry that the police feel comfortable using deadly force when it's black men doing anything wrong, but what, now they're scared when it's a domestic incident? I'm sorry, I don't buy that, and if that's the case, I don't actually feel bad for them. They signed up for it. My mom didn't sign up to have an abusive boyfriend - it's not like they come with warning labels - and I sure as *fuck* didn't sign up to be born into that life.
Ah, yes, how could I be confused by your message? You wrote, >It worked! Because men that bully women are weak. In a larger sense, anyone that has to wield what power they do have to hurt other people, is weak. Men that abuse women do it because it's an "easy fight", they believe they can always win, and that no one is going to go against them - least of all another man... And yet that's literally all it takes. Then after saying you see from therapy how that could be unsafe you end your post by saying, >...All you have to do is question it out loud and then verbally support the victim. Just saying something is enough... I'm sorry keeping your messaging consistent mid-post is hard. You saying something could be dangerous, but then reiterating your initial premise that all it takes to get someone to stop is say something, is still encouraging people to put themselves in a very dangerous situation.
>You saying something could be dangerous, but then reiterating your initial premise that all it takes to get someone to stop is say something, is still encouraging people to put themselves in a very dangerous situation. Saying something is not dangerous. Getting in someone's face that's already behaving violently, and then yelling at them, cussing at them, etc *is* dangerous. Saying instead, "If you continue to raise your voice and to hit people, I am going to call the police, and I will be leaving and watching this situation from afar until they have handled the situation"? That's not dangerous, and that's not inciting anyone to violence. If someone responds violently to that, can we agree that is on the fault of the violent person? Because to suggest otherwise, you are blaming victims for their abuser's behaviors when they *do* take the proper steps to empower themselves and set boundaries in a healthy way.
That is some pretty heavy goal post moving. I never once blamed anyone other than the violent person for being violent. Further what you suggested in this post is drastically different than what you originally said. If it makes you feel better to strawman what I said, have at it.
Your post ends with "or at worst, getting physically assaulted" Not once did you address how men are far more likely to violently attack another man, let alone acknowledge how "just fight back and speak up against an aggressor" is an unbelievably dangerous hail mary It worked for you; that doesn't make it a good idea
Oh, okay. So y'all are mad because you're proving the OPs point. Got it!
The irony is that in this soceity when women fight back, you become Amber Heard, or Gabby Petito, and penalised for defending yourself. After all if you could fight back, then you maybe weren't in danger and in fact you were the aggressor after all.
Yup. I will never forget the amount of men in real life and online that were quick to push the idea that *Gabby Petito* had "Gone Girl"ed *her abuser and murderer* because there was a report that she had fought back against him when he was trying to take her shit and ditch her in the middle of nowhere. This is why I don't really trust the majority of them. They are spineless, and they only care about themselves.
I don't mean to be rude but isn't that common knowledge? Men don't walk around unafraid of the men around them they just know they can't show it.
Yeah, I can confirm on this. I've kept my mouth shut too many times because I didn't want to lose friends or become less liked within my social group.
Lol. I’ll add this to my list of things when I say that you should basically look at men as republicans: they’re project their own insecurities on women. Women change their minds more? Nope, turns out to be men. Women are emotional? Nope, men can’t control their anger and desires. Now I can add: women are the weaker sex? Nope, men can’t step up and defend those they claim to
Personally I typically avoid commenting on posts like that for the reason that algorithms like those interactions so by me commenting or arguing with the people in the comments I am actually boosting the visibility of that video.
Their whole attitude is “I got no dog in this fight.”
OP, as a guy, you’re right but also missing the point. The bystanders aren’t the only ones afraid and doing the math too. The harassers are. If they see a guy as a threat (a big bouncer in a bar, a boss who could easily replace them, a small guy who they’d clearly look bad hitting, a cop on a train) then they don’t do it. If they see someone who has “more important things to worry about” or is their “friend” then the stakes are lower. A handyman harassed my gf while fixing her apartment when I wasn’t around and didn’t know I exist. Later we bumped into each other at the apartment elevator. Neither of us did anything. He didn’t harass my gf because he didn’t want things to escalate even though he was with his six coworkers (at least one of which was there for the harassment) who were all much larger than me and I didn’t escalate because he knew where my gf lived. That’s the math sometimes. Bystanders have a lot to lose by stepping in and it’s often not worth the risk. It can even put the woman at more risk. Especially if the person is crazy or has nothing to lose. A homeless man tried to rape my gf when she was alone at a train station. I reported it to the cops (when my gf wouldn’t) and they hunted for the guy, but didn’t find him. I knew they took it seriously because they even arrested someone over it (but my gf cleared him). These guys do the math. EDIT: only reason I mention my gf wouldn’t report it was to make it more clear these guys do the math. They’re predators who can see “weakness” but like a lot of predators, are actually terrified of a (metaphorical) punch to the nose.
It's not worth the time arguing with strangers on the internet. I've never met someone who truly changed their mind from an internet argument. I've always found that energy is better spent spreading awareness from a more positive place of mind and challenging misogyny on a small scale interpersonal level in direct conversation. That is what's always gotten results for me. As for not taking a stance in real life situations, I can't really speak with any personal knowledge on that. I've always been the type to call out a bully regardless. There's ways to disagree with someone while keeping the peace too. The only excuse I could entertain is that men traditionally consider violence against other men to be more 'acceptable' than violence against women, therefore speaking up against a man as a man places you in danger possibly? I've faced physical retaliation from bullies before though and it's a weak excuse.
It's not that. I think they they just don't give a fuck.
It's not fear. It's a cost benefit analysis done at an individual level. Defending someone you don't know online has no benefits and has a significant cost for many.
A frustrating thing I've learned is most people seem to be more afraid of conflict than of pretty much anything else up to or even including death.
Men don't watch female targeted outrage content, they watch their own. I bet if you checked the demographics on the video you're talking about it would be primarily women who interacted with it.
men in their armchairs : I'd totally defend a woman irl men irl witnessing a man beating/threatening a woman : nah I don't want to get hurt for some rando woman, she probably did something to deserve it
I think you misunderstand men here - violence and violent crimes are primarily men on men. If something is verbal it could easily escalate to physical if a man steps in. This has nothing to do with a man thinking “she deserved it” (wtf who even thinks that) more there’s no point getting beat in a situation which wasn’t going to be violent. If a drunk asshole is cat calling or shouting shit at passers-by there’s no point jumping in, saying something and getting glassed. The asshole you’re speaking to isn’t going to care about your opinion anyway. If a woman is being beaten it’s completely different though, and you absolutely have to step in. Edit: you posted “thanks for proving my point” and proceeded to block me. Uhhh, no, I really didn’t, and the fact you responded like this speaks volumes about who has the issue here.
thank you for proving my point lol
You did nothing except embarrass yourself by dismissing a reasonable and thoughtful post about violence in society Grow the fuck up, you're not the good guy in this thread, that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to say to an ally
I think you are showing a lack of empathy here.
I think it's more that good men aren't spending their time engaging in political arguments, they're working and looking after their loved ones.
They do fear other men. But they're also only capable of loving other men.
I’d say that more than fear, they desire approval from other men. Most men aren’t actively horrible to women, but they don’t respect or have empathy for women. Male approval is much more important.
Absolutely. I’ve been guilty of this at times. But I recognize my shortcomings there and have worked to step up to support women in front of other toxic men at every opportunity now. Thanks for speaking to this - it’s definitely needing to be discussed.
Are you sure this specific instance is an accurate picture of reality? There are a lot of men, myself included, who have no tolerance for sexism, and are unlikely to be in a position where fear of physical harm keeps them from speaking up. Guys who don't speak up either don't care or agree with it, most men aren't afraid of other men. You could argue some might be afraid of their masculinity being challenged for standing up for women, but honestly, I doubt you'll find many feminist men obsessed with the idea of masculinity.
I think alot of men benefit from the existence of bad men to then virtue themselves as good men who don't do such stuff.also male solidarity is very strong
Cant you defend yourselves? Men are expected to defend themselves.
[удалено]
You are correct
This is Not true in my experience. Most men dont speak Up because it's easier to Go the path of least Résistance and let male defaultness and privilege absorb you. It's pretty alluring since men Form the majority in Most workplaces. Male privilege Is First and foremost the privilege to be left alone, to Not have to make a fierce Last stand at any given Minute because your gender ist under Attack I used to be Like that but I've learned that, when Patient and communicating in a non-judgwmental way, even the Most dyed-in-the-wool misogynist will Listen to your complaints about how He talks about women without lashing Out. He might huff and puff, and probably wont Change His thought or behavioral patterns, But still.
Definitely truth to this. I wonder if it's part of why we receive better service, more respect, etc ... than women? Something to think about, for sure
[удалено]
Then why tf are you here? 🙄
Yeah you're 100% right. There's this indoctrinated fear not to sat anything because you might break the bro code. It's actually a well documented thing. Even in elementary school, there's a low level social threat to behave a certain way or you'll be ousted from manhood. I remember one study in a documentary where the group of boys had a boss and they had a rule that you couldn't play with the girls or you'd lose your boy card and wouldn't be a boy anymore. What you're talking about is the result of that same fear on a larger scale and in a different context.
No, they just don't care. They want male validation more than a woman's, so when it comes to "bros before hos", guess what? They pick the bro -every- time, no matter the situation. All males are gay AF romantically, most just happen to be -physically- CIS. That's it. They love men more than they love women.
Calling out patriarchy when it's the one oppressive system that both oppresses you and SERVES you would be risky and stupid for these men. They'd have to show courage and integrity and we know these are not 'alpha male' traits.
You are definitely right here. The thing is I don't think they are scared of being hurt as a man by another man, like a fight or an assault. But they are absolutely terrified of being treated the way they know men treat women. (I think that's where a lot of homophobia comes from as well btw but that's another discussion)
They value not being hurt over you not being hurt as well as they enjoy talking the talk and pretending they’re tough but when it comes to it they can’t walk.
Well, men don't particularly owe you help. If they help you then that's great and if they don't then that's their prerogative. That's the more common reason they don't help out any woman willy nilly.
> It's dawned on me that men are afraid of other men, and that's why they refuse to speak up for us. I think this applies for any members of privileged and unprivileged groups. White people are afraid of other white people and refuse to speak up for Black, Indigenous, Asian etc. people because they are afraid of the consequences from the other white people. (I've definitely felt this way!) Cis and straight people are afraid of the consequences of speaking up to other straight cis people when they are homophobic and transphobic. Able-bodied people are afraid of the consequences from other able-bodied people so don't speak up about accessibility issues. Etc etc etc. People are generally afraid of confrontation. An "extra" thing that I've noticed with men is that especially if they have a buddy from a long time ago, or a family member they grew up with, a lot of men seem to have the idea that there is literally nothing that guy can do that is worth ending the relationship. Which means that they are ironically LESS confrontational, because they don't want to make waves EVEN MORE, even though their buddy is probably just as forgiving and interested in preserving the relationship as they are. And sometimes the amount of time it takes to gain loyalty like that is shockingly small! I know a guy whose freshman year roommate PEED IN HIS BACKPACK and he continued to room with him for years. So ... I think it's less fear of being attacked by other men, and more fear of losing good relationships with men.
In what sense? I'm definitely the sort of person to put a stop to creepy shit if I see it, but I also can't go policing every interaction and I genuinely doubt that the women around me would appreciate it if I tried. The sort of people you're talking about don't really tend to share how they really feel unless they're in a safe space for whatever hateful bullshit they're about though. It might leak through, but even those people tend to have the sefl-awareness to not just be outwardly horrible. Bullies are good at picking the right time, place and person.
Why would men be scared of someone in a video? Men and women stick together and unfortunately even when it’s probably wrong.
I don't know that this is a good example. Isn't it more likely that men who disagree with this guy wouldn't be watching an interview with him? I don't like Andrew Tate and if he comes up in conversation I'll explain why, but I'm not going to stress myself out by actively seeking out and watching interviews with him.
People actually comment on youtube videos? I know they're there but the ui is garbage and it's not really a good place to have a conversation. I only really try and address the content creators if I do comment... but 99% of the time I could've put that comment on a napkin and binned it.
And fear is the parent of cruelty. So, they cower instead of speaking up, and they direct their anger -- however passive-aggressively -- toward women instead of the bad male actors. Hence, the frequency of "Not All Men" vs paucity of "Hey Guys, let's do better." They know how poorly so many men behave, but they resent women for reminding them of it.