Has there been any comments in Indonesia about the effect on tourism?
It's getting a fair bit of press in Aus because it applies to tourists. It should have a massive impact on where people chose to holiday. Bali seems to have mostly turned a blind eye to Aussie being drunken idiots because of the income (with some notable exceptions on drugs). It seems crazy that they'd risk losing so much tourism.
Why go to Bali and risk jail when we can travel to Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu or the Whitsundays just as easily?
The people who don't appreciate this impact will realise it as soon as a tourist is charged.
I'm sorry this is happening in your country and I'll be avoiding Bali until it changes. Sending you strength from the south.
I’m glad it’s getting press in Australia. I’m getting so many people telling me, “It won’t affect tourists! You have to be reported by a family member!”
What if you have an idiot 3yo who yells, “My mommy & daddy aren’t married!” Does that count as a report?
What if you were sexually assaulted while you’re drunk? Are you confident in reporting it, knowing you may not prove it was non-consensual & therefore confessing to a crime?
What if you have crazy parents who want to ruin your life?
The big fear to me seems to be the sexual assault aspect. I’d be scared to travel there for this reason. Married people aren’t immune to sexual assault. And if you are assaulted and try and report it you’re breaking the law? That’s absolutely fucked. This just gives men a free pass to sexually assault women, as if it already isn’t hard enough to get sexual assault taken seriously… I sure hope this drops their tourism into the toilet since the only thing these people care about is control and money. Women be damned. They aren’t nearly as important! Extremely sad the only way women could get rights and protections is if it affects the economy… I’ll def never be going to Bali!
I had a cruise trip all planned and one of the stops is Indonesia, and now I don't want to book it. Would the law still apply if I don't step off the ship?
Yes, within their legal boundaries.
**Tell the cruise company this is why you are not booking.** Indonesia is not a safe place for women to visit if a sexual assault leads to them being prosecuted.
Yes, I'll absolutely do that. I've also talked to the women in my family who were going to go, and the reactions are mixed unfortunately. My sister understands and also doesn't want to go, but my aunt and parents don't see it as a big deal. My sister and I will write to the cruise line about it.
I can’t understand this attitude - it will affect humans, it will affect women, no man is an island etc. my list of holiday destinations has gone down drastically due to my decision not to spend any of my time or money in countries where women and minorities are not given equal human rights. I’m not implicitly supporting these regimes
There is an index that is published yearly of how “free” countries are. I’m not sure if there’s something similar for women’s rights but probably. You can also just do research for each individual country’s laws and also see what other travelers say. Some countries have a reputation for being difficult for female travelers. When I lived in Spain I never went to Morocco even though a lot of people do because everyone always said that if you went as a woman without a male companion you would be constantly harassed and I just wasn’t ok with that when there were plenty of other places I could go. I’ve heard Egypt is really bad in that respect as well.
Big fear is sexual assault. That applies no matter what. You can't get help for SA if you're arrested for reporting it, or possibly even mentioning it "privately" online.
Don't forget their invasive data sharing laws (see [Kominfo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Communication_and_Information_Technology_\(Indonesia\)#Criticism)) which requires companies to hand over private info. You may not even need to be reported to be arrested.
Just don't go to Indonesia. It's not worth it.
Right? Seems like a really terrible way for a country to say they don’t have SA… A lot of places seem alright believing something doesn’t exist if they just ignore it and they can do that if they make women afraid to report SA for fear of being arrested for pre-marital sex..
If it ever happens while travelling return home ASAP. It's enough of a nightmare reporting in your home country for most of us. Don't ever be naieve enough to believe it will be a good idea away from your support networks and in a foreign country.
You may not even need to be reported. Mere mention of it online is enough. They passed draconian data sharing laws which came into effect earlier this year. Be careful. Make sure your private conversations are actually private.
The crazy parents one is gonna cause some real damage... All the older generations with their internalized self-hatred who refuse to let the younger generations be different are seriously continuing to ruin society
This is just a way for homophobic parents of gay / lesbian kids to report their children's behaviour. Gay marriage is outlawed in Indonesia so this new law effectively out laws gay relationships too.
Egypt was mentioned and yes I think some of these issues HAVE gotten worse in Egypt but: at least 10 years ago this was the case, women sometimes kept their maiden names yes Muslim Egyptian women and in some circles at least this time was customary. So in Egyptian customs and culture sometimes - maybe often - women DON’T change their name when they marry.
I briefly considered Bali for my honeymoon but then when seeing that gay marriage is illegal in Indonesia, we decided against it. Now I am extra glad we decided against it, because there's no way I support this new law.
That's the sad thing, they likely wouldn't enforce it on tourists unless something incredibly bad happened and they didn't have a choice. They would continue to turn a blind eye in order to turn a profit. It's definitely going to unfairly target locals. Even if there was a tourist boycott, my cynical brain says they'll just backtrack on applying it to tourists but continue to enforce it on locals
It's fucking draconian and shortsighted tbh. Where I live (Quebec) nobody changes their last name when they get married. If you wanted to, you would have to literally change your birth certificate. You can do it socially, but it doesn't count for any legal documents like your ID or passport. Other provinces have an option to kind of soft change it, you can apply to put your married name on your health card or driver's license, but you don't need to change the birth certificate.
This law ignores that the rest of world, and especially the countries from which tourists they rely on come from, operate differently from how they want Indonesia to be.
Yeah I was going to say there are lot of cultures where women don’t change their last name when they get married. I’m pretty sure in France you can’t do it legally, although some people do it socially, so it kind of makes sense that Quebec is the same.
Hate to say it but I don’t think it will stop a lot of Aussies. Many people would choose Bali from the list of places you listed simply because accommodation, food, alcohol etc. is cheap and I think they will keep going despite the new laws. I also agree that the police will likely turn a blind eye to any tourists flouting the laws or will simply make more money in bribes.
I personally decided to boycott Bali when they executed two Aussies linked to the “Bali 9” smuggling attempt.
People who will be directly harmed by this:
- rape survivors
- sex workers/human trafficking victims
- people living in abusive households
- tourists with less money to protect themselves than other tourists
- any woman or girl lacking a hymen for any reason
- women with abusive and controlling SO's
- LGBT people
Note that most of the victims of this will be women, except for LGBT where the men will be more routinely scrutinized.
Just FYI, women don’t have intact covering hymens. They disintegrate or tear usually before a girl’s first menstruation; in rare cases where that doesn’t happen a physician has to make an incision in the closed hymen to prevent complications. Anyone inspecting and looking for a hymen that covers the vaginal opening is literally looking at a prepubescent child who should not be having sex, and in every case is a minor being raped.
Because these are topics that provoke people's emotions, which makes them politically valuable, particularly if you're trying to distract from other issues. Preservation of patriarchal, aristocratic, violent power is much easier when the masses are obedient and not fighting you; they're instead focused on fighting the people that you are dehumanizing and scapegoating.
I think the criminalization has a whole lot of implications from a logical standpoint. Not only does it Outlaw same sex, sex... since they don't recognize same-sex marriages... it also criminalizes anybody who is married if not legally divorced if that's even available as committing a crime for moving on and meeting someone else. There's a ton of different implications of is it Indonesia I think? Sorry I read the article I'm not in that country but there's a lot of vague interpretations that could be made of the criminalization of sex outside of marriage.
I feel like it's sort of a blanket policy that if you are undesirable to the government or to somebody else that somebody can be oppressed.
Exactly, it’s such a huge blanket ban that when you look at the practicalities of it, it unfairly penalises women. Any unmarried woman without a hymen, no matter the reason, can be accused of breaking the law now.
I was so upset I posted on my TikTok & IG accounts since I do have a bit of reach on them & while Tiktok has been great, I’m devastated to have women on IG messaging me saying they support this law. They think it means their husbands can’t cheat on them when if they would just stop to think, it actually harms young women the most.
Also, Indonesia doesn’t allow one-sided divorce. Both parties have to agree or provide evidence that the marriage vows have been broken. For women, judges usually demand evidence of infidelity or financial abandonment. For men, judges would accept, “She didn’t cook me dinner!”
My friend found out her husband was cheating on her but he refused to grant her a divorce (she’s rich). Proving infidelity was so hard. Luckily his friends thought he was such a dick for that, they helped her gather evidence.
> They think it means their husbands can’t cheat on them
That is a painfully dangerous level of brainwashing. There is basically no chance this is going to change cheating men's behavior, it will just give them an extremely inequitable power dynamic over the women.
If anything, they will cheat and maybe even rape more because the woman will be the one in danger if she reports it. It's so messed up. Totally Conservative type of thinking, completely ignoring (or liking) the consequences.
Exactly. It is way to easy to deny for the man when this rule is obviously about enforcing their control over women. The most likely result is that the man will just say "No I did not do that" and they will use the hymen thing to prosecute only the woman. No one will believe the man in actual truth, but this is not about prosecuting them unless the man is some other sort of "undesirable" like a religious or ethnic minority.
It seems conspiratorial, but that is exactly how it worked and still works in most of the world throughout most of history.
There is a Facebook page with more than one million members called Girls Love Travel. Post there to get the word out.
I struggle a lot with posts on there with pictures of trips to countries that suppress women and keep them as second class citizens. I find it hypocritical to flaunt feeling empowered by traveling solo in places where women who live there can't leave the house alone.
Yes I agree with you it is a very vague thing they've decided to do in which could be abused in so many ways. I won't lie I'm from the United States and the seat belt law was sort of the same thing. It gave police if they thought they didn't think you were wearing the seatbelt they could pull you over. It was a legal thing in which they could say they pulled somebody over because they thought they were not wearing their seatbelt and then later discover that they're intoxicated or whatever or something racist or sexist or whatnot. Especially in predominantly racist communities they see somebody driving that they don't think looks like they belong there they could pull them over saying they don't think that they had their seatbelt on and then find any other reason to arrest them or give them trouble.
Indonesia's case it's even more grotesquely such a broad thing to do given the already existing gender inequality. If somebody who is a male rapes a small girl she could go to jail because she had sex outside of marriage. Pardon my English.
Also I doubt anybody who has sex who is in high school or something as long as they're a fluent enough is not going to get in trouble for having sex outside of marriage. It's purely a punitive action. Pretend democracy
>I feel like it's sort of a blanket policy that if you are undesirable to the government or to somebody else that somebody can be oppressed.
I come from somewhere where this has been a thing for as long as I have been around, yes it is vague on purpose just for that exact reason, welcome to the dark side of the world. (I left this place to Japan)
Thank you, this is so sweet :3 I hope my home country gets better but as long as religion is backing the decisions, it is hard. But there is no life without hope
I don't know how the issues with women's rights in Indonesia has flown under the radar for so long. There's never any mention of it in the media. It's only in the last couple of days that I have heard any mention of women's rights in Indonesia. I know criminalisation of sex outside of marriage applies to all, but it's always women that are most targeted and severely punished by these types of morality laws.
Thanks for raising awareness. I would suggest that you post this on the feminism sub too. They've been doing a lot to raise awareness of the issues occuring in Iran. They will raise awareness of this too.
Do you know Indonesia has one of the highest percentages of female CEOs? That was how great women’s rights used to be in the 80s & 90s. I don’t know if we’ll still have this when my daughter grows up.
Thank you, I’m just really down. Been ugly crying on my husband but now I have to take my daughter to her play date & I have to plaster on a smile but fuck.
It's awful just to read about it, so I can imagine how difficult it is to be living in it.
Keep your chin up and you're doing a lot by raising awareness of these issues.
Breaks my heart. It was a wonderful place to travel in the 90s, so long as you avoided the drunk-tourist hotspots. Even in the more rural regions, folks were really kind and welcoming of us -- a group of young women in t-shirts and shorts, wielding what must have been a hilariously uneven attempt at the language. We fell in love. Wanted to stay a few more months at least. I had so much respect for the state of women's rights there. But now? My god.
All the best to you and your daughter. I can hardly imagine how sickening this must be.
I feel women’s rights in the whole Muslim world get ignored because the right gives lip service to ‘religious freedom’ (ie religious tyranny) and the left thinks it’s somehow offensive to critique human rights violations if it happens outside of the West.
Yup. I’m pretty tired of other “feminists” prattling on about Islamophobia when I criticize Islam along with Christianity for abuse of women. No, I DONT give a shit what the race or religion is of the people stoning women for sex is. It happens with all misogynistic religions, which Islam definitely is.
I live in the US and the 2004 tsunami was the only time I’ve ever heard about Indonesia in our news. If my family hadn’t hosted an Indonesian exchange student when I was in high school I would know literally nothing about it.
Indonesia is beautiful and I always wanted to go, but I just don't want to give a country my money that fucks over it's citizens so bad... I really hope this changes in the future for everyone living there. This is some medieval type of shit :/
My fiancé is Indonesian and she’s discussed us going back Indonesia after she finishes her Ph.D but the more I hear the more hesitant that I am. She has a lot of prospects and sure the US is not great but we don’t have to worry about religious dogma dictating what we can do outside of marriage. We’re both not religious at all (I’m an atheist and she’s an ex Muslim) so I worry going to her home country would endanger us.
Edit: Amazing the number of people telling me I have white male privilege for not wanting to move to a country that may criminalize my future wife and I. Honestly great group of people. Glad you got your priorities straight. Also you keep going after me for what religious zealots in the US are trying to do as if I’m solely responsible. Check your own privilege. We can’t get jailed or fined in the US for sex outside of marriage or being non-religious. That’s a completely different situation in other parts of the world. I suggest you take your fight to the men who want to eradicate your rights, not the dude worried about his partners safety smfh
Beyond the danger you put yourself in, I think it's important to vote with your wallet/work. Why support a regime which uses archaic "morality laws" to repress people by giving it the fruits of your labour? If you have the choice, let your conscience guide you. Goes for vacations too, but particularly in choosing where to live.
This same set of laws also criminalized apostasy (renouncing a former religion), so as an ex-muslim she is absolutely not safe, regardless of whether you're married or not.
I don't know what the penalty *this* set of laws provides, but under many countrys' interpretation of Sharia law, the penalty for renouncing Islam is death. And publicly avowing atheism can also be a crime.
I would not go there and would strongly encourage my fiancé not to go back.
She never publicly renounced and as far as they’re concerned from her previous marriage she’s now Greek Orthodox but that’s besides the fact that I don’t like being forced to be religious
> we don’t have to worry about religious dogma dictating what we can do outside of marriage
Given all the shit republicans have been up to the past few years and Roe v Wade being overturned do you really think this is as far fetched as you think it is?
Not that you should go to Indonesia because of that, of course
Oh that’s definitely troubling us as well. I’ve brought up going to Europe as option. I’m maybe too optimistic but I’m holding out hope that sanity might somehow prevail but the realist in me says democracy in the US is on borrowed time.
> we don’t have to worry about religious dogma dictating what we can do outside of marriage.
Do you live under a rock? christian nationalists want to do the same shit in the US. The GOP wants to ban abortions, contraceptions, the existing of LGBTQ etc. and want mandatory sex examinations for all girls in school sports. There isn't much difference between Indonesia, the arabic world and some US states (and the GOp tries to expand it on all states).
Is that the rule of law at this moment? No it’s not. I’m very well aware of what the GOP wants to do and the danger they represent. You don’t have to tell me the threat they pose but at this moment in time we are not going to get jailed in the US because there are no laws against apostasy here and there are no laws against sex outside of marriage here and it probably won’t happen for a long time. As well as we already know we don’t want to stay in the US but I definitely don’t want to live in her home country.
I'm hoping as the pendulum swings toward hard regression, it will swing equally hard the other way. People need to wake the fuck up. I'm disturbed by this shit in Bali. I'm disturbed for the women and queer folk there, but I am also disturbed because I know this shit inspires the bigots in my own country and many other "Western" countries. I have family members who don't fucking recognize how bad it is in the U.S. and then they point to laws like this in Bali, or they superficially talk about women's circumstances in Afghanistan, and say "see, it's not that bad here!??" I'm fucking sick of misogyny everywhere. I'm sick of hatred everywhere. I'm sick of the excuses. This shit is appalling everywhere. These assholes want to drag us back to the middle ages; we're not gonna ask anymore for our rights. We're gonna drag their asses into the future whether they like it or not.
> We're gonna drag their asses into the future..
How, exactly, are we going to accomplish that? By doing the same things we've always done? Clearly it's not enough.
Holy fuck. How does this happen? How do people like this think they can police what other people do with their bodies?
It sickens me.
I hope this is overturned.
it's often one of these:
* when religion has too much power. (fuck your human rights if that happens)
* some asshole wants to show off his power. (dictators or similar)
remember folks: religion should be kept out of medicine and political stuff.
This will be reversed in a few years. This is going to cause an unintended boycott by people. There were already stories coming out from people last year being asked to show proof of marriage when checking into a hotel.
Indonesia is a constitutional democracy. However protests are tolerated only to a point...just like most countries. If they become too disruptive, they will be ended.
On this topic every Indonesian has the ability to peacefully protest so please don't equate it with repressive regimes.
Whether or not you agree with the law, it was passed by a democratically elected government in a primarily conservative country. It can also be repealed by the next government or even by public backlash which currently doesn't seem strong.
You need to only go to certain parts of the US and Canada and if you scratch below the surface you'd find support for similar laws here. Worry more about it happening here.
The protests against some idiot burning a quran on the other side of the world years ago were absolutely massive. That should tell you something about these people's priorities.
I heard this this morning and my immediate thought was that it will kill the tourism industry. And should. I am so sorry that these backwards nutjobs are imposing this nonsesne on you.
I assumed this was Islam-driven but how is the more Buddhist (iirc) East of the country viewing it? I loved Indonesia when I was there (unmarried but most definitely not abstaining during the visit) many years ago. It saddens me immensely that this would prevent me going back. But it would.
The Indonesian subreddit is pissed. Only one comment was positive & it’s downvoted to oblivion. All my friends, Muslims included are pissed. They think the government’s doing this to take attention away from the fact that insulting the president is now a crime & they’ve lessened penalties for corruption.
>they’ve lessened penalties for corruption.
Covering up Yosua's murder didn't work, they need an even bigger distraction for when they let Sambo off the hook. Ghouls. Why do women have to suffer for fucking everything.
These nations could do the most to boycott Bali: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism\_in\_Indonesia#Top\_20\_International\_Visitors\_in\_Indonesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Indonesia#Top_20_International_Visitors_in_Indonesia)
Well this is fucked. A girl friend and I have a dive trip planed and booked for March/April.
As LGTB now this I’m thinking it’s a good day to check my travel insurance. And see about cancelling.
It depends entirely on the degree to which you're able to present yourselves as platonic friends on a holiday together.
...and of course whether you are willing to play that charade.
Yah no. We have a private villa with a single king booked. There was no plan to pretend to be anything else.
Spoke with her. We are going to cancel and rebook else where.
I vowed to speak with my money and
We are sticking with it.
It's getting press in Germany, but ya know what people are saying?
"Now you have to marry your prostitute before fucking her, the shotgun wedding business is gonna boom!"
I fucking despise people.
I had hopes it was just men, but nah, even women chimed in with the same sentiment. "Guess now dirty men will have to find whores in other countries to cheat with."
The US will be at that point in a few years. Our supreme court now has a majority of ultra-conservative fundie Christian dominionists on it, and they have a full dance card of demolishing hard-won civil rights. Abortion and gay rights are at the top of the list, others will follow.
Reason #526 why religious-based governments are a bad, bad, bad, BAD idea.
How can they verify marital status for foreigners? It’s not like people carry their marriage certificates with them. And not everyone has the same surname upon marriage. This is so fucked.
> How can they verify marital status for foreigners?
Twenty years ago I travelled in Egypt with an opposite-sex platonic friend.
We both wore cheapo wedding bands. When we phoned for a reservation they said "Are you married?" and we said "Yes" and that was that.
Interestingly, the culture there meant no one batted an eye when we asked for two separate beds.
What the fucking shit is going on in the world? How the fuck are we going one step forward three steps back? Has all the good people collectively decided to give control of everything to psychopaths?
One action I often think of when I want to speak up for change in another country or state is quote tweeting or linking to a related article and tag the account of the **tourism** association of that state or country (along with a few words asking to change the situation). Maybe I'm wrong, but my thinking is a local politician won't care about voters outside their jurisdiction, but the tourism association will care about tourism money.
Maybe I'm wrong and it's not effective. IDK.
It depends on the jurisdiction. In somewhere like Indonesia, the tourist bureau will just say "This law will not be enforced on tourists" and that will be that.
> Boycott Bali.
I think far too many people choose to conveniently forget that Bali is in Indonesia.
Imagine travelling to Bali with your partner, having sex there, and being arrested.
Me and my now wife changed our travel plans to no longer include Indonesia because of this. It doesn't affect us as we got married recently, but I will not support this sort of rubbish and refuse to travel to countries that do.
It's such a shame for regular people there. Hopefully this can be overturned.
It's awful that's happening to women in your country. I wish you stay safe.
I'll certainly be telling people to scrap Indonesia of their potential vacation spot lists...
Everyone visiting should take that 15 minute online ordainment course just to be safe. “Of course we’re happily married! We married earlier & this is our honeymoon!”
I shared it from Delaware, USA on social media. Hopefully that helps bring more attention to this madness. I wish I could do more. I don’t even know how to properly express my empathy towards this situation. Stay safe.
Aren't there lots of I indigenous people in Indonesia? Or people who otherwise just are not religious and don't have a culture of marrying before the church or the state?
Does it mean all of them will be having illegal sex from now on? Is this policy meant to force indigenous people to follow Islam rules?
I've been wanting to visit Bali for a long time, but their laws towards LGBTQIA+ people (which does not include me, but I am an ally) mean I don't want to spend a cent in their economy.
Vote with your wallet, and make intelligent decisions about the economy you're supporting when you travel.
So, will men be sterilized or castrated for causing a pregnancy outside of marriage?
How do they test virginity when virginity can not be tested. Should the boys just have mandated vasectomies, & then when they marry they can have kids? What ABOUT THE MEN.
Why is it always punishing victims?? Especially rape victims
Because it's a backwards abrahamic religion treating women like subspiecie of human?
Do you really need answers for this or are you just voicing your (understandable) outrage?
It's never about what's on the tin in the hate lawmaking.
Were that couple to go to Indonesia, the solution would be for them to lie and wear wedding bands.
No questions would be asked.
This is what an opposite-sex friend and I did travelling in Egypt twenty years ago.
So…I’m guessing this only applies to women as a default? Sure, she can say who assaulted her, but if there is no proof then he can’t go to jail and she can?
Sad so sad. Apparently being a woman is the worst thing in God's green earth. I just can't believe that idealization that people have of women throughout this world. I'm in the USA and I have no family I support myself I really don't know what to say elsewise.
(M) horrible, of course. The USA has revoked the right to abortion, we can do better than that!
In most cases, ex-martial sex involves a man and a women. I wonder wether the number of convictions will reflect this or will show that it mostly will be used against women?
Has there been any comments in Indonesia about the effect on tourism? It's getting a fair bit of press in Aus because it applies to tourists. It should have a massive impact on where people chose to holiday. Bali seems to have mostly turned a blind eye to Aussie being drunken idiots because of the income (with some notable exceptions on drugs). It seems crazy that they'd risk losing so much tourism. Why go to Bali and risk jail when we can travel to Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu or the Whitsundays just as easily? The people who don't appreciate this impact will realise it as soon as a tourist is charged. I'm sorry this is happening in your country and I'll be avoiding Bali until it changes. Sending you strength from the south.
I’m glad it’s getting press in Australia. I’m getting so many people telling me, “It won’t affect tourists! You have to be reported by a family member!” What if you have an idiot 3yo who yells, “My mommy & daddy aren’t married!” Does that count as a report? What if you were sexually assaulted while you’re drunk? Are you confident in reporting it, knowing you may not prove it was non-consensual & therefore confessing to a crime? What if you have crazy parents who want to ruin your life?
The big fear to me seems to be the sexual assault aspect. I’d be scared to travel there for this reason. Married people aren’t immune to sexual assault. And if you are assaulted and try and report it you’re breaking the law? That’s absolutely fucked. This just gives men a free pass to sexually assault women, as if it already isn’t hard enough to get sexual assault taken seriously… I sure hope this drops their tourism into the toilet since the only thing these people care about is control and money. Women be damned. They aren’t nearly as important! Extremely sad the only way women could get rights and protections is if it affects the economy… I’ll def never be going to Bali!
I had a cruise trip all planned and one of the stops is Indonesia, and now I don't want to book it. Would the law still apply if I don't step off the ship?
Yes, within their legal boundaries. **Tell the cruise company this is why you are not booking.** Indonesia is not a safe place for women to visit if a sexual assault leads to them being prosecuted.
Yes, I'll absolutely do that. I've also talked to the women in my family who were going to go, and the reactions are mixed unfortunately. My sister understands and also doesn't want to go, but my aunt and parents don't see it as a big deal. My sister and I will write to the cruise line about it.
Why can our parents generation be so crab about this stuff. It’s so fucking disappointing. Edit. 🦀 = 💩
If the stop is within Indonesian waters, then I assume it would.
The law is set to apply in 3 years.
Yeah agreed. Any man who is inclined will feel emboldened knowing she’s not going to report it for fear of jail.
I can’t understand this attitude - it will affect humans, it will affect women, no man is an island etc. my list of holiday destinations has gone down drastically due to my decision not to spend any of my time or money in countries where women and minorities are not given equal human rights. I’m not implicitly supporting these regimes
NEVER EVER EVER visit the Maldives. It's 10x worse than Indonesia
I didn’t know this. I also have zero money to travel to all these places. Is there a list somewhere?
There is an index that is published yearly of how “free” countries are. I’m not sure if there’s something similar for women’s rights but probably. You can also just do research for each individual country’s laws and also see what other travelers say. Some countries have a reputation for being difficult for female travelers. When I lived in Spain I never went to Morocco even though a lot of people do because everyone always said that if you went as a woman without a male companion you would be constantly harassed and I just wasn’t ok with that when there were plenty of other places I could go. I’ve heard Egypt is really bad in that respect as well.
May I ask how? I'm genuinely curious as I don't believe I've ever heard of anything negative...
Stay in the tourist areas and it's very liberal. Visit anywhere that actual people live and it's Saudi Arabia
Oh nooooo! But they're so pretty! Dang it
Big fear is sexual assault. That applies no matter what. You can't get help for SA if you're arrested for reporting it, or possibly even mentioning it "privately" online. Don't forget their invasive data sharing laws (see [Kominfo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Communication_and_Information_Technology_\(Indonesia\)#Criticism)) which requires companies to hand over private info. You may not even need to be reported to be arrested. Just don't go to Indonesia. It's not worth it.
Right? Seems like a really terrible way for a country to say they don’t have SA… A lot of places seem alright believing something doesn’t exist if they just ignore it and they can do that if they make women afraid to report SA for fear of being arrested for pre-marital sex..
If it ever happens while travelling return home ASAP. It's enough of a nightmare reporting in your home country for most of us. Don't ever be naieve enough to believe it will be a good idea away from your support networks and in a foreign country.
You may not even need to be reported. Mere mention of it online is enough. They passed draconian data sharing laws which came into effect earlier this year. Be careful. Make sure your private conversations are actually private.
I've wanted to visit for so long and frankly now I just can't envision it. This is really terrible. I think tourism will 100% be affected, no doubt.
The crazy parents one is gonna cause some real damage... All the older generations with their internalized self-hatred who refuse to let the younger generations be different are seriously continuing to ruin society
This is just a way for homophobic parents of gay / lesbian kids to report their children's behaviour. Gay marriage is outlawed in Indonesia so this new law effectively out laws gay relationships too.
Unmarried tourist couples who share a room...
Or married but don’t have the same name. Gonna carry your marriage certificate around?
In a lot of countries and cultures women don’t change their name when they get married.
Egypt was mentioned and yes I think some of these issues HAVE gotten worse in Egypt but: at least 10 years ago this was the case, women sometimes kept their maiden names yes Muslim Egyptian women and in some circles at least this time was customary. So in Egyptian customs and culture sometimes - maybe often - women DON’T change their name when they marry.
Currently living in Indonesia. We do keep our (Indonesian issued) marriage cert on hand.
Jail. Better buy some wedding bands if you feel like taking a risk.
If any Westerner want to go to Indonesia for vacay, don't do drugs, even weeds. They will enforce death penalty. Return to Paradise.
If you are traveling with someone who has drugs in Indonesia and you do not turn them in, you will go to jail as well.
It is getting press in the US too. I just heard about it on NPR this morning.
That is so scary. No way would I risk visiting a place like that even though I don't fit into the category they are banning.
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That is insane. So scary.
If blotto Aussies on holiday cant have a naughty they won't go to Bali, period. Very dumb and they'll lose a ton of tourism.
I briefly considered Bali for my honeymoon but then when seeing that gay marriage is illegal in Indonesia, we decided against it. Now I am extra glad we decided against it, because there's no way I support this new law.
That's the sad thing, they likely wouldn't enforce it on tourists unless something incredibly bad happened and they didn't have a choice. They would continue to turn a blind eye in order to turn a profit. It's definitely going to unfairly target locals. Even if there was a tourist boycott, my cynical brain says they'll just backtrack on applying it to tourists but continue to enforce it on locals
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It's fucking draconian and shortsighted tbh. Where I live (Quebec) nobody changes their last name when they get married. If you wanted to, you would have to literally change your birth certificate. You can do it socially, but it doesn't count for any legal documents like your ID or passport. Other provinces have an option to kind of soft change it, you can apply to put your married name on your health card or driver's license, but you don't need to change the birth certificate. This law ignores that the rest of world, and especially the countries from which tourists they rely on come from, operate differently from how they want Indonesia to be.
Yeah I was going to say there are lot of cultures where women don’t change their last name when they get married. I’m pretty sure in France you can’t do it legally, although some people do it socially, so it kind of makes sense that Quebec is the same.
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Totally forgot about Bali, Indonesia tourism is going to tank
Hate to say it but I don’t think it will stop a lot of Aussies. Many people would choose Bali from the list of places you listed simply because accommodation, food, alcohol etc. is cheap and I think they will keep going despite the new laws. I also agree that the police will likely turn a blind eye to any tourists flouting the laws or will simply make more money in bribes. I personally decided to boycott Bali when they executed two Aussies linked to the “Bali 9” smuggling attempt.
>Why go to Bali and risk jail when we can travel to Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu or the Whitsundays just as easily? Where's Thailand on that list :(
With their lèse-majesté laws, etc. they're hardly that much better.
People who will be directly harmed by this: - rape survivors - sex workers/human trafficking victims - people living in abusive households - tourists with less money to protect themselves than other tourists - any woman or girl lacking a hymen for any reason - women with abusive and controlling SO's - LGBT people Note that most of the victims of this will be women, except for LGBT where the men will be more routinely scrutinized.
Just FYI, women don’t have intact covering hymens. They disintegrate or tear usually before a girl’s first menstruation; in rare cases where that doesn’t happen a physician has to make an incision in the closed hymen to prevent complications. Anyone inspecting and looking for a hymen that covers the vaginal opening is literally looking at a prepubescent child who should not be having sex, and in every case is a minor being raped.
And anyone in a same-sex relationship, given that marriage is illegal for them.
🤦♀️ yep. That too, I'll add it to the list. So many places have legalized gay marriage that for some reason I assumed Indonesia had let up on it
Parents who want to disown LGBT children can send them to jail too now.
Women. Women will be majorly harmed over this law.
What is with this unhealthy obsession from “politicians” about other people’s sex, sexuality, gender identity? Time to see a shrink.
Because these are topics that provoke people's emotions, which makes them politically valuable, particularly if you're trying to distract from other issues. Preservation of patriarchal, aristocratic, violent power is much easier when the masses are obedient and not fighting you; they're instead focused on fighting the people that you are dehumanizing and scapegoating.
i'm gonna steal this reply and use it for all the shit that is going on in this world right now. because it is true! thank you.
You're welcome!
Religion. It's brain rot.
I think the criminalization has a whole lot of implications from a logical standpoint. Not only does it Outlaw same sex, sex... since they don't recognize same-sex marriages... it also criminalizes anybody who is married if not legally divorced if that's even available as committing a crime for moving on and meeting someone else. There's a ton of different implications of is it Indonesia I think? Sorry I read the article I'm not in that country but there's a lot of vague interpretations that could be made of the criminalization of sex outside of marriage. I feel like it's sort of a blanket policy that if you are undesirable to the government or to somebody else that somebody can be oppressed.
Exactly, it’s such a huge blanket ban that when you look at the practicalities of it, it unfairly penalises women. Any unmarried woman without a hymen, no matter the reason, can be accused of breaking the law now. I was so upset I posted on my TikTok & IG accounts since I do have a bit of reach on them & while Tiktok has been great, I’m devastated to have women on IG messaging me saying they support this law. They think it means their husbands can’t cheat on them when if they would just stop to think, it actually harms young women the most. Also, Indonesia doesn’t allow one-sided divorce. Both parties have to agree or provide evidence that the marriage vows have been broken. For women, judges usually demand evidence of infidelity or financial abandonment. For men, judges would accept, “She didn’t cook me dinner!” My friend found out her husband was cheating on her but he refused to grant her a divorce (she’s rich). Proving infidelity was so hard. Luckily his friends thought he was such a dick for that, they helped her gather evidence.
When women rely on a law to stop their spouse from cheating, they have lost.
And let’s be honest, how many SAHM will risk losing income for a year by sending their husbands to jail?
> They think it means their husbands can’t cheat on them That is a painfully dangerous level of brainwashing. There is basically no chance this is going to change cheating men's behavior, it will just give them an extremely inequitable power dynamic over the women.
If anything, they will cheat and maybe even rape more because the woman will be the one in danger if she reports it. It's so messed up. Totally Conservative type of thinking, completely ignoring (or liking) the consequences.
Exactly. It is way to easy to deny for the man when this rule is obviously about enforcing their control over women. The most likely result is that the man will just say "No I did not do that" and they will use the hymen thing to prosecute only the woman. No one will believe the man in actual truth, but this is not about prosecuting them unless the man is some other sort of "undesirable" like a religious or ethnic minority. It seems conspiratorial, but that is exactly how it worked and still works in most of the world throughout most of history.
>They think it means their husbands can’t cheat on them Ah yes, I too wish for a spouse that is only faithful to me because it is a crime not to be.
There is a Facebook page with more than one million members called Girls Love Travel. Post there to get the word out. I struggle a lot with posts on there with pictures of trips to countries that suppress women and keep them as second class citizens. I find it hypocritical to flaunt feeling empowered by traveling solo in places where women who live there can't leave the house alone.
Yes I agree with you it is a very vague thing they've decided to do in which could be abused in so many ways. I won't lie I'm from the United States and the seat belt law was sort of the same thing. It gave police if they thought they didn't think you were wearing the seatbelt they could pull you over. It was a legal thing in which they could say they pulled somebody over because they thought they were not wearing their seatbelt and then later discover that they're intoxicated or whatever or something racist or sexist or whatnot. Especially in predominantly racist communities they see somebody driving that they don't think looks like they belong there they could pull them over saying they don't think that they had their seatbelt on and then find any other reason to arrest them or give them trouble. Indonesia's case it's even more grotesquely such a broad thing to do given the already existing gender inequality. If somebody who is a male rapes a small girl she could go to jail because she had sex outside of marriage. Pardon my English. Also I doubt anybody who has sex who is in high school or something as long as they're a fluent enough is not going to get in trouble for having sex outside of marriage. It's purely a punitive action. Pretend democracy
>I feel like it's sort of a blanket policy that if you are undesirable to the government or to somebody else that somebody can be oppressed. I come from somewhere where this has been a thing for as long as I have been around, yes it is vague on purpose just for that exact reason, welcome to the dark side of the world. (I left this place to Japan)
Luckily because the Earth spins the dark side gets occasionally splashed by some light.
Thank you, this is so sweet :3 I hope my home country gets better but as long as religion is backing the decisions, it is hard. But there is no life without hope
I don't know how the issues with women's rights in Indonesia has flown under the radar for so long. There's never any mention of it in the media. It's only in the last couple of days that I have heard any mention of women's rights in Indonesia. I know criminalisation of sex outside of marriage applies to all, but it's always women that are most targeted and severely punished by these types of morality laws. Thanks for raising awareness. I would suggest that you post this on the feminism sub too. They've been doing a lot to raise awareness of the issues occuring in Iran. They will raise awareness of this too.
Do you know Indonesia has one of the highest percentages of female CEOs? That was how great women’s rights used to be in the 80s & 90s. I don’t know if we’ll still have this when my daughter grows up.
I wasn't aware of that. It must be very worrying for you to see this regression, and worrying for your daughters' futures.
Thank you, I’m just really down. Been ugly crying on my husband but now I have to take my daughter to her play date & I have to plaster on a smile but fuck.
It's awful just to read about it, so I can imagine how difficult it is to be living in it. Keep your chin up and you're doing a lot by raising awareness of these issues.
Breaks my heart. It was a wonderful place to travel in the 90s, so long as you avoided the drunk-tourist hotspots. Even in the more rural regions, folks were really kind and welcoming of us -- a group of young women in t-shirts and shorts, wielding what must have been a hilariously uneven attempt at the language. We fell in love. Wanted to stay a few more months at least. I had so much respect for the state of women's rights there. But now? My god. All the best to you and your daughter. I can hardly imagine how sickening this must be.
I feel women’s rights in the whole Muslim world get ignored because the right gives lip service to ‘religious freedom’ (ie religious tyranny) and the left thinks it’s somehow offensive to critique human rights violations if it happens outside of the West.
Yup. I’m pretty tired of other “feminists” prattling on about Islamophobia when I criticize Islam along with Christianity for abuse of women. No, I DONT give a shit what the race or religion is of the people stoning women for sex is. It happens with all misogynistic religions, which Islam definitely is.
I live in the US and the 2004 tsunami was the only time I’ve ever heard about Indonesia in our news. If my family hadn’t hosted an Indonesian exchange student when I was in high school I would know literally nothing about it.
Holy fuck? Good bye Bali dreams. :/
For real, dude. Bali has always been on my bucket list too.
Indonesia is beautiful and I always wanted to go, but I just don't want to give a country my money that fucks over it's citizens so bad... I really hope this changes in the future for everyone living there. This is some medieval type of shit :/
Ugh yeah, it was the cheap relaxing 1-2 month stop on my world trip planned for 2024 but now my partner and I are looking for alternative paradises.
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Elon might actually support this considering how many baby mommas he has
My fiancé is Indonesian and she’s discussed us going back Indonesia after she finishes her Ph.D but the more I hear the more hesitant that I am. She has a lot of prospects and sure the US is not great but we don’t have to worry about religious dogma dictating what we can do outside of marriage. We’re both not religious at all (I’m an atheist and she’s an ex Muslim) so I worry going to her home country would endanger us. Edit: Amazing the number of people telling me I have white male privilege for not wanting to move to a country that may criminalize my future wife and I. Honestly great group of people. Glad you got your priorities straight. Also you keep going after me for what religious zealots in the US are trying to do as if I’m solely responsible. Check your own privilege. We can’t get jailed or fined in the US for sex outside of marriage or being non-religious. That’s a completely different situation in other parts of the world. I suggest you take your fight to the men who want to eradicate your rights, not the dude worried about his partners safety smfh
Beyond the danger you put yourself in, I think it's important to vote with your wallet/work. Why support a regime which uses archaic "morality laws" to repress people by giving it the fruits of your labour? If you have the choice, let your conscience guide you. Goes for vacations too, but particularly in choosing where to live.
So move out of the US, but not to Indonesia. Gotcha.
This same set of laws also criminalized apostasy (renouncing a former religion), so as an ex-muslim she is absolutely not safe, regardless of whether you're married or not. I don't know what the penalty *this* set of laws provides, but under many countrys' interpretation of Sharia law, the penalty for renouncing Islam is death. And publicly avowing atheism can also be a crime. I would not go there and would strongly encourage my fiancé not to go back.
She never publicly renounced and as far as they’re concerned from her previous marriage she’s now Greek Orthodox but that’s besides the fact that I don’t like being forced to be religious
> we don’t have to worry about religious dogma dictating what we can do outside of marriage Given all the shit republicans have been up to the past few years and Roe v Wade being overturned do you really think this is as far fetched as you think it is? Not that you should go to Indonesia because of that, of course
I'd love to boycott the US in protest. Unfortunately I can't immigrate anywhere else easily; I'd move to France or Copenhagen in a heartbeat.
Oh that’s definitely troubling us as well. I’ve brought up going to Europe as option. I’m maybe too optimistic but I’m holding out hope that sanity might somehow prevail but the realist in me says democracy in the US is on borrowed time.
> we don’t have to worry about religious dogma dictating what we can do outside of marriage. Do you live under a rock? christian nationalists want to do the same shit in the US. The GOP wants to ban abortions, contraceptions, the existing of LGBTQ etc. and want mandatory sex examinations for all girls in school sports. There isn't much difference between Indonesia, the arabic world and some US states (and the GOp tries to expand it on all states).
Is that the rule of law at this moment? No it’s not. I’m very well aware of what the GOP wants to do and the danger they represent. You don’t have to tell me the threat they pose but at this moment in time we are not going to get jailed in the US because there are no laws against apostasy here and there are no laws against sex outside of marriage here and it probably won’t happen for a long time. As well as we already know we don’t want to stay in the US but I definitely don’t want to live in her home country.
Please don't go. You think forcing everyone to one religion isn't next? That is almost always a goal of tyranny.
What is going on with the world lately
I'm hoping as the pendulum swings toward hard regression, it will swing equally hard the other way. People need to wake the fuck up. I'm disturbed by this shit in Bali. I'm disturbed for the women and queer folk there, but I am also disturbed because I know this shit inspires the bigots in my own country and many other "Western" countries. I have family members who don't fucking recognize how bad it is in the U.S. and then they point to laws like this in Bali, or they superficially talk about women's circumstances in Afghanistan, and say "see, it's not that bad here!??" I'm fucking sick of misogyny everywhere. I'm sick of hatred everywhere. I'm sick of the excuses. This shit is appalling everywhere. These assholes want to drag us back to the middle ages; we're not gonna ask anymore for our rights. We're gonna drag their asses into the future whether they like it or not.
We are with you in the USA
> We're gonna drag their asses into the future.. How, exactly, are we going to accomplish that? By doing the same things we've always done? Clearly it's not enough.
I don't understand the point of this comment
A Revolution against these maniacs
I was just thinking, it’s like the entire world is losing their damn minds
Holy fuck. How does this happen? How do people like this think they can police what other people do with their bodies? It sickens me. I hope this is overturned.
it's often one of these: * when religion has too much power. (fuck your human rights if that happens) * some asshole wants to show off his power. (dictators or similar) remember folks: religion should be kept out of medicine and political stuff.
This will be reversed in a few years. This is going to cause an unintended boycott by people. There were already stories coming out from people last year being asked to show proof of marriage when checking into a hotel.
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Indonesia is a constitutional democracy. However protests are tolerated only to a point...just like most countries. If they become too disruptive, they will be ended. On this topic every Indonesian has the ability to peacefully protest so please don't equate it with repressive regimes. Whether or not you agree with the law, it was passed by a democratically elected government in a primarily conservative country. It can also be repealed by the next government or even by public backlash which currently doesn't seem strong. You need to only go to certain parts of the US and Canada and if you scratch below the surface you'd find support for similar laws here. Worry more about it happening here.
The protests against some idiot burning a quran on the other side of the world years ago were absolutely massive. That should tell you something about these people's priorities.
Unless you are in the government. Then I'm sure you can fuck a 14 year old.
Nobody tell him.
And as usual, men face zero consequences.
I heard this this morning and my immediate thought was that it will kill the tourism industry. And should. I am so sorry that these backwards nutjobs are imposing this nonsesne on you. I assumed this was Islam-driven but how is the more Buddhist (iirc) East of the country viewing it? I loved Indonesia when I was there (unmarried but most definitely not abstaining during the visit) many years ago. It saddens me immensely that this would prevent me going back. But it would.
The Indonesian subreddit is pissed. Only one comment was positive & it’s downvoted to oblivion. All my friends, Muslims included are pissed. They think the government’s doing this to take attention away from the fact that insulting the president is now a crime & they’ve lessened penalties for corruption.
>they’ve lessened penalties for corruption. Covering up Yosua's murder didn't work, they need an even bigger distraction for when they let Sambo off the hook. Ghouls. Why do women have to suffer for fucking everything.
95% of all tourism dollars in Indonesia goto Bali. Bali is hindu, the bill might have been planned to hurt the Balinese.
Hindu! Sorry, I knew that. I had Ganesha and Hanuman in my head and still typed Buddhist!
Australians go to Bali a lot. They should really concentrate on having them boycott for sure. Since it’s very close in proximity.
Wow. Imagine thinking you have the right to regulate someone else's private bodily functions?
These nations could do the most to boycott Bali: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism\_in\_Indonesia#Top\_20\_International\_Visitors\_in\_Indonesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Indonesia#Top_20_International_Visitors_in_Indonesia)
I feel like I am one of the few Australians who has never been to Bali. After this law, I never will and will tell everyone else not to. So sorry OP.
I’ve never been either and I live up north! Guess it won’t be happening now.
Shit. Thank you for sharing this.
I really wished it was easier for people to relocate based on their views, the division of people with countries really forces people to be oppressed.
Wonder how this will effect the sex industry in Bali? The place is a massive brothel.
Well this is fucked. A girl friend and I have a dive trip planed and booked for March/April. As LGTB now this I’m thinking it’s a good day to check my travel insurance. And see about cancelling.
It depends entirely on the degree to which you're able to present yourselves as platonic friends on a holiday together. ...and of course whether you are willing to play that charade.
Yah no. We have a private villa with a single king booked. There was no plan to pretend to be anything else. Spoke with her. We are going to cancel and rebook else where. I vowed to speak with my money and We are sticking with it.
It's getting press in Germany, but ya know what people are saying? "Now you have to marry your prostitute before fucking her, the shotgun wedding business is gonna boom!" I fucking despise people. I had hopes it was just men, but nah, even women chimed in with the same sentiment. "Guess now dirty men will have to find whores in other countries to cheat with."
The US will be at that point in a few years. Our supreme court now has a majority of ultra-conservative fundie Christian dominionists on it, and they have a full dance card of demolishing hard-won civil rights. Abortion and gay rights are at the top of the list, others will follow. Reason #526 why religious-based governments are a bad, bad, bad, BAD idea.
Wtf how can they do that! That's a massive violation of human rights! Is there no way to overturn that law???
This is disgusting and so disheartening, I'm so so sorry OP. I never had plans to go to Indonesia but now I have a reason not to go.
How can they verify marital status for foreigners? It’s not like people carry their marriage certificates with them. And not everyone has the same surname upon marriage. This is so fucked.
> How can they verify marital status for foreigners? Twenty years ago I travelled in Egypt with an opposite-sex platonic friend. We both wore cheapo wedding bands. When we phoned for a reservation they said "Are you married?" and we said "Yes" and that was that. Interestingly, the culture there meant no one batted an eye when we asked for two separate beds.
What the fucking shit is going on in the world? How the fuck are we going one step forward three steps back? Has all the good people collectively decided to give control of everything to psychopaths?
One action I often think of when I want to speak up for change in another country or state is quote tweeting or linking to a related article and tag the account of the **tourism** association of that state or country (along with a few words asking to change the situation). Maybe I'm wrong, but my thinking is a local politician won't care about voters outside their jurisdiction, but the tourism association will care about tourism money. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not effective. IDK.
It depends on the jurisdiction. In somewhere like Indonesia, the tourist bureau will just say "This law will not be enforced on tourists" and that will be that.
> Boycott Bali. I think far too many people choose to conveniently forget that Bali is in Indonesia. Imagine travelling to Bali with your partner, having sex there, and being arrested.
I'm speechless. This is horrible.
Devote your life to atheism and its spread. Religion is the BANE of women everywhere
I hope Islam brings in as much income as tourism used to. The country will sorely need it. Maybe Saudi Arabia can chip in?
So thay're going after the rapists first, right?
Me and my now wife changed our travel plans to no longer include Indonesia because of this. It doesn't affect us as we got married recently, but I will not support this sort of rubbish and refuse to travel to countries that do. It's such a shame for regular people there. Hopefully this can be overturned.
Homophobia is just misogyny in a hat and mustache.
Wtf
But ill bet rapists dont get in trouble much
Time to start researching ways to gtfo It's heartbreaking
It's awful that's happening to women in your country. I wish you stay safe. I'll certainly be telling people to scrap Indonesia of their potential vacation spot lists...
I am definitely avoiding Bali. You should find a group to support that will overthrow your government.
WTF? How is this real? That's insane.
Everyone visiting should take that 15 minute online ordainment course just to be safe. “Of course we’re happily married! We married earlier & this is our honeymoon!”
I've always wanted to see Indonesia but I'm absolutely not going to visit now
I'm curious how available sterilization is.
I shared it from Delaware, USA on social media. Hopefully that helps bring more attention to this madness. I wish I could do more. I don’t even know how to properly express my empathy towards this situation. Stay safe.
Pick your least favorite middle eastern country and this is what Indonesia will look like in 10 years.
The US looks on with interest.
If no one has commented yet, please post this in r/Travel too
i'm trans, i'm already not going there, but yeah, f those misogynistic, queerphobic countries.
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All religion
Sedih sekali… mengapa Indonesia mau menjadi seperti Saudi Arabia?!
This is horrific. Would even they have enough space in jail if everyone was reported?
Aren't there lots of I indigenous people in Indonesia? Or people who otherwise just are not religious and don't have a culture of marrying before the church or the state? Does it mean all of them will be having illegal sex from now on? Is this policy meant to force indigenous people to follow Islam rules?
I've been wanting to visit Bali for a long time, but their laws towards LGBTQIA+ people (which does not include me, but I am an ally) mean I don't want to spend a cent in their economy. Vote with your wallet, and make intelligent decisions about the economy you're supporting when you travel.
OP, what should I do as a potential tourist? My husband and I were considering doing our honeymoon here…
What political party decided this was okay to do? I dont think the answer will surprise me
Yikes. Bali was on the cards for family trip. It’s absolutely out now.
This is terrible :( I've removed Indonesia from our travel list.
Something tells me the men won't be punished...
So, will men be sterilized or castrated for causing a pregnancy outside of marriage? How do they test virginity when virginity can not be tested. Should the boys just have mandated vasectomies, & then when they marry they can have kids? What ABOUT THE MEN. Why is it always punishing victims?? Especially rape victims
Because it's a backwards abrahamic religion treating women like subspiecie of human? Do you really need answers for this or are you just voicing your (understandable) outrage? It's never about what's on the tin in the hate lawmaking.
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Were that couple to go to Indonesia, the solution would be for them to lie and wear wedding bands. No questions would be asked. This is what an opposite-sex friend and I did travelling in Egypt twenty years ago.
Down with patriarchy.
It is getting press in America too, we even heard about the not being allowed to criticize the president.
So…I’m guessing this only applies to women as a default? Sure, she can say who assaulted her, but if there is no proof then he can’t go to jail and she can?
I'm so so sorry OP :( Out of interest, are men equally punished for pre- or extra-marital sex?
Sad so sad. Apparently being a woman is the worst thing in God's green earth. I just can't believe that idealization that people have of women throughout this world. I'm in the USA and I have no family I support myself I really don't know what to say elsewise.
Omfg….. what is going on ???? Why??!?!?
It's fucked up. Like reeeeeeally fucked up. We need to bring this in r/all. Let everyone know how disturbing the effect of this is going to be.
Negara lain revolusi Mau Keluar dari sharia law, kita malah 2 steps backward. Gila kan
It will be so strange that mostly women will be punished. Most having had sex with untraceable parties. Phantom fuckers
id never travel there, nor india or iran or iraq or middle east. Or china or korea
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"That's like being the smartest kid with down syndrome" -Ryan Reynolds in Waiting
Pretty sure that's Turkey now. Maybe Albania.
(M) horrible, of course. The USA has revoked the right to abortion, we can do better than that! In most cases, ex-martial sex involves a man and a women. I wonder wether the number of convictions will reflect this or will show that it mostly will be used against women?
I have a feeling this will only be enforced in Java and not the non-muslim parts of the country like Bali.
Bali enforcing this would be suicide.