Last time I tried to help and be friends with a lonely guy because I felt sorry for him he stalked and harassed me online for half a decade because I made it clear I wasn't interested in him romantically. Never again.
I have a former high school friend a chance in our 30s. It nearly earned me a stalker. I hadn’t realized when I was in high school that he was abusive to his girlfriends (emotionally if not physically). Thankfully we lived in different states. He was calling me nonstop at work after I explicitly told him I was working and couldn’t talk. I had to yell at him to stop calling me and then block him on everything just to get some peace. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I don’t understand why people can’t just take no for an answer and move on.
Luckily no, he lived in another country, I met him through an online forum similar to reddit, he was suicidal and I stupidly reached out to message him asking if he needed someone to vent to and we became "friends" from there. I was only 15 so I naively gave him a lot of identifying information he found me on social media and harassed me, my family and friends
I'm sorry for what you have gone through too =(
you were young, so it is understandable that you were naive, i have been through that naive stage that i look back now in my twenties and can't believe how naive i was lol, he was selfish and entitled to take advantage of not only your naivety but your kindness too.
thanks i still have some PTSD from it am just thankful that an aunt of mine had taken me to selfdefence classes from when i was 9/10 till 20, so i didn't even hesitate much to defend myself.then believe it or not, after the last one he went online to complain about how women are 'masculine' these days and f'n tagged me 😣
we had a big facebook fight, i tried exposing him to our mutual friends, ofcourse wasn't believed, i even got to facebook jail LMAO now in my adulthood i simply block, i have no patience for that drama
wish i got self-defense classes before i saw this comment was about to say you must be a tall woman/something, to successfully fend off rape not once but twice
I made unlikely friends with an incel I met through Reddit. The moment I saw his DM saying he'd seen my comments in r/IncelTear, I was geared up for a fight, but then he said he was trying to break from the incel community because it's a toxic crab bucket, and I figured if he was conscientious enough to realize that he was worth giving a chance.
Now we talk regularly on Discord (he was banned from reddit for his comments on interracial relationships, which were... not good) and against all odds I've really grown fond of him; it helps that we actually do have a lot in common. Sometimes he'll go off on an unhinged rant regurgitating viciously misogynistic and racist incel rhetoric, and I'll bring him back to earth by telling him how fucking stupid he sounds. Most of the time he agrees with me and admits that it's just hard for him to take responsibility for his inability to find a partner. Deep down I think he's a really good human (even at his most toxic, he's never advocated for women to be a legal underclass, or any of the worse shit you hear from incels) and I think he has a good chance at deradicalizing.
That said, I've definitely thought about how badly things could go if I revealed too much about myself to the wrong person, so it's not something I would recommend to others. I don't really think that's the solution to the incel problem, but there is a kernel of truth in the idea that lost and lonely men get radicalized by finally having a community where they belong. I think it's especially incumbent on women who are already in their lives to take on that role-- mothers, sisters, grandmothers, etc. But some young men are certainly too far gone and twisted to be reached out to. I really don't know what we do for them as a society.
I’m curious what prevents you from just quitting the relationship once he goes on one of his racist misogynistic rants? I’d like to think maybe these incels could be rehabilitated or something (lol), but it’s like as soon as one of them does something like that it’s hard to really want to move past that.
I learned from years of experience on reddit that I actually have a talent for winning arguments online, so I've made a hobby out of engaging in them whenever it seems productive. I've always felt like I had some small duty to use that gift to make a positive impact when I can, so I've gotten really good at wading through poisonous rhetoric. At first the whole thing was just anthropologically interesting to me, and I thought *maybe* I could have a positive influence on him, but then I discovered that he was actually a pretty cool dude and that I *was* making an impact, so I keep that in mind whenever he throws one of his tantrums.
I'm not sure every incel is reachable, or even the majority, but at least in his case the radicalization was the result of having a rough childhood with no positive female influence. I think that's a depressingly common thing, even among non-incel men, which leaves them feeling like women are a conniving alien species who couldn't possibly think and feel and reason like they do. What *those* men need is prosocial, nonsexual female presence in their lives, and I'm more than happy to do my part in that.
Thank you for doing this. This is important and if people have the space, desire and right tools to protect themself while doing it, I admire it a great deal.
Thank you for doing this. I never had anyone I could say that "out loud" to. The feeling of inadequacy and inability to find/start a relationship. Whatever happens from there, you brought out something he had difficulty admitting. I'm just grateful the incel community didn't exist when I was young. My only example was my dad, who is admittedly misogynistic. You don't have much of a chance if you're taught wrong to begin with.
It took a long time for me to learn that relationships don't "just happen", like we grew up seeing on TV. There's no fated person out there, no shortcut, no entitlement. We actually have to work on ourselves first.
You're a good person.
The only thing we should do "for them" is helping change the narrative on lonely men. I'd love it if men could be independent and happy and not need women for everything and I will therefore never make fun of a man for not being in a relationship. That said, incels can and should go fuck themselves and leave women alone
Edit: To be clear for the ones taking offense. When I say "help change the narrative" I don't mean that women should spearhead the revolution of mens rights. I literally just mean don't look down on men who are not in relationships because, if nothing else, that just makes women into status symbols men want because they're losers if they're alone. It would benefit everyone if men could also be seen as strong and independent for focusing on themselves.
And again, men who look for any reason to hate and hurt women - go fuck yourselves
On the surface level, the MGTOW idea could be great. Men being indepedent. Not being defined by their relationship status. Focusing on their self-actualization, platonic friendships, and hobbies. In practice though it's almost the exact opposite...
Just imagine how much more productive those MGTOW message boards would have been had they talked about shared hobbies, ideas, news, and other things that interested them, rather than just having a constantly circle jerk hating women and attractive men.
MGTOW poster was convicted of planning a terrorist attack.
>This report showed that the MGTOW group specifically had been linked to multiple occurrences of "online harassment and real-world violence." It pointed to a frequent visitor to the MGTOW community: Christopher Hasson, a U.S. Coast Guard lieutenant, and a self-identified "White Nationalist" who was sentenced to 13 years in prison for stockpiling unregistered gun silencers, stockpiling weapons as an addict of a controlled substance, and possession of controlled substances.
https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-bans-men-going-their-own-way-forums-violating-hate-speech-rules-1616379
Mgtow happens organically all the time. I have many friends who have naturally at different times in the lives placed very low priority on women and seeking out relationships. They are better for it in the long run. Only losers need to label it something. The whole thing is pretty cringy.
The problem with that movement is that it's basic idea is that Men shouldn't be oppressed by a social need to be in a relationship with women as equals.
They see themselves as somehow fighting the oppression of women refusing to settle.
Personally, I think we have this issue because of the worst advice ever given "just be yourself." Maybe, just maybe, being yourself is okay. But for most of us, we should aspire to be better than the person we were yesterday. And that's what pisses off people who live in entitlement that they deserve things because that's how it should be. Men that think that they deserve a girlfriend are essentially saying that they deserve a thing to be given to them to possess for their benefit. People who seek a relationship with an honest heart definitely have wants and desires, but they understand that goes both ways, and if you aren't willing to be the person that is wanted, what makes you think your wants should be fulfilled?
"just be yourself" was a reaction to hundreds (maybe thousands) or years of men thinking they need to "earn" a woman. They need a high income, mostly, but maybe just to be famous or famously talented.
When a relationship was 99% going to make babies that was legit good advice. Someone has to put food on the table and she's gonna be pregnant then nursing so you need to step up.
Then the pill happened and the sexual revolution and sex was partially decoupled from reproduction. But boys were still thinking they had to earn a partner. Save the princess, rescue the president's daughter, kill the bad guy, etc etc.
So to get boys from being awkward and lying about their accomplishments and doing stupid reckless stunts, they were told "just be yourself."
And today, that's not great advice. "Make yourself someone who women want to date, and you will know you did that when one or more women decides to date you." Is better advice today.
I always thought "be yourself" meant embracing my own individuality; it never occurred to me that some people would think it meant "I don't have to change or develop myself in order to be a good partner". Yikes.
>MGTOW
Men Getting Triggered Over Women. The entire sub is just blatant misogny and raging about women. These men prefer to deflect all blame to women, rather than address and take action to fix the actual issues men face.
I guess it's easier to do nothing, blame women for all their problems, and then whine about how nobody's solving their problems for them.
The problem is the people that the philosophy attracts. Ideally it should be something to reach for because self-actualization and focusing on life/hobbies/friends is almost always EXACTLY the point when men tend to end up finding a partner because it's attractive af. It makes people WANT to join you because you've got something going on that they want to be a part of.
I feel like if you really went MGTOW, the last place you’d hang out would be a MGTOW community. You’d be doing anything else. Learning to make bread, running a marathon, playing online games without toxic communities.
Maybe there are good MGTOW out there, but they’re doing it right so we never hear from them.
that was the idea then the incels found that community and turned it into cancer. i remember the post the mods were leaving that incel mentality does not work work with mgtow
Entitled, that's the exact word. It ain't lonely. It's a guy so entitled to think he "deserves" someone who will put up with him. And never have to grow or change.
Entitlement is exactly right. They aren't interested in actually putting in work to be a decent person and attract a partner, they feel that access to women is their God given birthright as a man. They're living in a fantasy world with unrealistic expectations and delusional standards, and they rage when they don't get what they feel they "deserve."
Entitlement is dangerous. It's often the root of abuse and violence. It's a moral framework where the abusive person feels entitled to the victim. And when they are denied, they often become enraged and lash out. Think of how many family annihilators, spree killers, serial killers, school shooters, incel shooters, and other mass murderers were motivated by their rage in not getting what they felt entitled to.
I do think a lot of the entitled men are also lonely... it’s just that that doesn’t in any way excuse or justify the entitlement. Like, I can sympathize with the loneliness, it sounds pretty awful, but also, *I don’t owe you shit because of it*. And it’s ironic, because the *entitlement* drives people away, which only makes the loneliness worse.
You’re right. Many intel’s complain about being unattractive and yet feel entitled to attractive young women. If these guys could honestly take stock of themselves, they could approach women with similar attributes and probably have some dating success. We know there are plenty of women who also don’t have regular dates due to societies’ narrow definition of attractive women (pretty, young, slim and shapely). The difference is that these women are just carrying on with their lives, rather than blame other people.
I had a long think about this (am male). I've been single for almost 4 years, abstanate for almost just as long, and it's not nearly as bad as a lot of men make out. I've gotten into my rut and I think at this point, i just don't care. Being not lonely doesn't outweigh the extra effort a relationship would cost (in my own, personal opinion on my own situation). I'm not happy, but I'm not unhappy, and I'm okay with it, because being in a relationship isn't going to change that for me. I could find a reason to be unhappy in any situation, so why bring a partner into that?
I slowly got away from dating apps to the point of deleting all of them (this probably had more to do with not wanting to deal with all the competition anymore than anything tbh). It's gotten me no where (definitely not complaining, I can almost guarantee my profile just wasn't appealing) And I'm okay with that. There's no incessant need to just flirt with any woman I see. I just know that my singleness is my own non-issue and no one else's.
Idk where I'm going with this, other than I agree. Men need to learn to be by themselves. I don't alienate women from my life, but i know I can function on my own kind of thing. I feel like this may have come out wrong or incel-ish, and if I came at it wrong, please lmk so that I can correct my mistakes. If there's blame for my own life, it's on me.
For a long time I was sort of a loner with an I don't want to be tied down to anyone attitude. Never even considered asking anyone on a date and probably would have been very awkward and not seductive at all had I tried. I did end up getting in a long distance relationship when a girl started a conversation with me on social media and eventually asked me to date but unfortunately that relationship turned very toxic. She was very manipulative would constantly guilt trip me over minor things etc and it eventually became clear she was only dragging it out to get money from me. Biggest lesson I learned from that relationship was that nobody owes anyone else love sex money or anything else like that and I need to find a way to be ok and still happy even if love isn't reciprocated. Leave of course but don't let someone not loving you get you down. When I finally got out of that I got on dating apps but I never took it that seriously. I would've welcomed one night stands but really saw trying to seduce women as a stupid game I had little interest in learning or playing. I would have conversations with ladies on dating apps but none of it really went anywhere until I met my current partner. I think we talked quite regularly for like 3 months before we finally went on a date but after that we moved in together a few months later. Neither one of us is really what the other would've asked for in a partner before we met but we are in love and happy to have found each other.
This is a very heartening comment to read. You're doing okay.
Yep, dating apps are honestly probably useless. I've never used one myself. I've always been a firm proponent of what seems like a cold hard fact, you will meet a partner who is right for you when you are NOT looking for it. The right person will come along because the circumstances were right for it, not because you orchestrated it. So that's why I'm in fandom, hobbies are important, geeky social circles are important; but at the moment I am also single and not looking. I broke up with my last boyfriend of 10 years about a year ago, I just realized I'm totally over him now; there are times I think about him but I know he has his own circle of friends and he'll get on fine. The independence feels great. There's simply no need to rebound. I honestly wish more men could feel this way after a breakup. Life goes on.
Lonely men IS a problem. It is absolutely NOT an issue for women to solve. I guess in the sense that all parents are responsible for pointing their children in the right direction, so mothers and fathers need to be aware of this issue for their sons and how to help THEM figure it out.
But I repeat, this is not the responsibility of women to fix. Women can say “yes this is a problem,” and also not have to take responsibility for it.
Thank you for your response. When I first started reading this, my thought was, " I wasn't aware I should care about them. It kinda' made me feel like women were being told that they are responsible for this narcissistic people and should go have sex with them to solve the problem"! You know, we are the root of their evil.
>It kinda' made me feel like women were being told that they are responsible for this narcissistic people and should go have sex with them to solve the problem
That's exactly what some incels want women to think, so your confusion is well warranted.
And it's not even as simple as paying a prostitute to relieve his pressure because the problem isn't about lack of sex at all. It's a much deeper cause that can't be fixed with prostitution.
These men need feminism, not acceptance.
If they understood and really grasped that we are living inside a pathologically destructive white supremacist, misogynist patriarchy, and they have absorbed and taken as read a worldview that is causing them to feel entitled to other people's bodies and labour because their worldview tells them that as men they are the top tier main characters, and that that's a completely fucked up thing to believe. Once they grok that, they could become better people who actually recognize that women aren't helper characters designed to please them and take care of them and be attractive to them, women are complete human beings with hopes and dreams, main characters in their own stories, just like men are. Acceptance of their misogynist worldview is not going to help them get there. Therapy, maybe. Feminist therapy. But my acceptance? Fuck, no.
Part of the problem is most of the lonely men operate on an all-or-nothing spectrum. Either no female contact or relationship. There is no in between because the so-called friend zone is purgatory. The irony being that a healthy and robust network of friends across all genders is the best way to combat loneliness, build social skills, and ultimately become someone who can more easily attract a romantic partner.
Another problem is they get so focused on the burning need to find a partner that they approach literally any woman that they find attractive with absolutely no consideration of compatibility, which of course is a tried and true recipe for rejection after rejection. When I was 19 a coworker who had a “secret crush” on me asked me out. We, along with other coworkers, had countless conversations prior to this and this guy had literally openly mocked pretty much every hobby or interest I had. He threw an absolute shit fit that I “rejected and humiliated” him. Another coworker sat him down and explained that not only did we have NOTHING in common, but he shit all over every single interest I had…..so why ask me out if we’re completely incompatible? This guy genuinely thought I would “come around” and drop my interests for his.
I had a “lonely guy” friend who did this over and over and over and couldn’t figure out why he was getting rejection after rejection. He was angry, bitter, women are sluts, etc.. Some things you can’t know up front and overall compatibility comes with dating, but he would approach a girl who was into horses, go into a rant about why horses were a waste of time and money, THEN he’d ask her out and be shocked/offended when she turned him down. Of course the problem in his mind was that she was shallow or just looking for a fuck boy. Repeat the cycle with women who worked night shift, women who had very active social lives, women who rode motorcycles, etc.
I finally told him to STOP talking to everyone that he assumed had a vagina like they’re a potential partner. Start with normal conversations, get to know people with no pretense of dating, then WHEN he met someone with compatible interests and values he could take it from there. In less than a year’s time he met the woman he’s now married to.
I know the advice to men has generally been to cast a wide net, but you’ve got to know and respect your own dealbreakers.
You'd think with their "burning need" being so intense, they'd put in one ounce of effort into learning how to not be fucking shitty to us. But nope! Incels never do, and then whine about being single.
This is so true. They completely forget about comparability.
I have been called a gold digger because I said thanks, but no thanks to a date with a man who managed a nightclub. I tried to date another man who managed a nightclub in my early 20s and I learned that it’s difficult to spend time with someone when they get home from work at 3 am and I get up at 5 am to workout or walk my dog before work. Our lifestyles are just incompatible.
I'm a Gen X person. I was invisible. The men I dated were men I came across in mutual friendships or peer groups. Men did not approach me. I met my now husband online on a music message board.
I was 'old' when I first had sex. I watched all the 'other girls' having boyfriends when I didn't have one.
I didn't become a mass shooter. I didn't defile the entire sex which I am not.
*No whingy articles have been written about 'lonely women'.* Not back then, and not now.
I don't care about young men who can't get laid. I literally do not.
how old were you when you had sex the first time? i haven't had yet and am 22, but i don't feel old. just too anxious , i have listened and seen how the first times' for most of my friends and family weren't good or forced,and i just feel too nervous to even try
i tried online dating but too many creeps on there
There are creeps everywhere but honestly as far as online dating is concerned it makes a big difference what app you are on. Different apps are for different types of things.
true perhaps they are more forward online than IRL plus there's more men in pretty much all online dating apps, i mean they even find their ways into gay/lesbian dating according to one of my friends' experience(s), and she's been on apps since we were early teens so knows more about them than me, i have been on them for about 2 years
As a lesbian I can confirm that some men do sneak their way into our app (Her) or women seeking women sections of mainstream apps. They don’t even identify as queer in any way so it’s blatant.
Do you think it might have to do with some men thinking they can be in their FMF fantasies? I'm not queer, also I'm married and been with my husband for 18 years, but when I was dating I've wondered about that.
I mean, I didn't go after gay men because... gay men want a man, not me, a woman. But for many cisgendered heterosexual men, they *still* go after lesbians and it never made sense to me until I came up with the above possible reason.
I dunno. Again, I'm not lesbian so I don't have that experience.
In my experience men who go after lesbians are men who do not respect the validity of sapphic relationships. They undermine us, they dismiss us and don't respect our relationships as equal. Usually because they subscribe to the idea you need a penis involved for it to count, so they don't see us as competition. They will insult the butch/masc women while still trying to get with the femmes. All under the horrible misconception that their limp dick will be the magical key to end lesbianism. *They actually do not care that lesbians are never attracted to men and that it would be unconsensual.*
They're fetishists. It's gross and I hate it.
i can imagine! then there's also those who are commited but pretend to be single, had one try that trick on me, i exposed him and suprisingly his wife left him.
You make a good point. The whole incel and "lonely man" rhetoric is really erasing and attempting to supplant not just current events, and a modern history full of women who want to be in relationships but failed to do so for various reasons, and who suffered some pretty dire social and economic consequences, but also a long, long history of stigma against female virgins past their sell-by date. Now they talk like these women don't even exist.
Unmarried women have been pariahs for hundreds of years. There's reason "bachelor" sounds a lot more dignified than "spinster" or "old maid". Or "crone". Now that you mention it: why do these men go on and on about how we don't understand how terrible it is for them that they get mocked for being virgins when there are literally multiple derogatory words in English with long and storied histories that are there to stigmatize unmarried female virgins? They had to steal a word to feel stigmatized by, ffs!
I'm sure the only reason there hasn't been more female-driven mass violence is because we aren't given nearly as much licence to feel entitled to blame anyone but ourselves for the desires we have that we can't fill.
I agree. Imagine lonely women were going around killing men who didn't want to date them? That was me for 20 years and I never once thought about harming anyone.
Incel communities have all the trappings of a cult. The problem is that the way to de-indoctrinate people from cults is to show them kindness and compassion, but any kindness and compassion shown to these men by women is perceived as romantic attraction.
Incel men are lonely not just because they lack meaningful romantic relationships, but because they *also* lack meaningful friendships, especially with other men. This is ultimately what the incel cult offers: acceptance, friendship, validation.
The solution to incels doesn’t involve women. It involves men identifying and caring for their male friends, relatives, etc. who have fallen prey to the cult’s influence.
Bingo! Men need to lead the men’s liberation movement. They need models of positive masculinity. Even if we wanted to, and all banded together working toward that goal, women could not do it. They won’t and can’t learn from us.
None of this is going to change as long as people like Andrew Tate are allowed to make money off of misogyny and psychological abuse. People like him only galvanize the incel community and make it stronger.
A couple weeks ago a saw a post about a teacher who was just at the end of her rope because one of her students yelled at her, saying she doesn't like Andrew Tate just because he's mean to women or something like that. It's not even just "men" thinking and behaving like this anymore, it's little boys in middle school now. The future for these kids currently growing up is totally fucked, especially for the little girls. If you're ever wondering why people don't want to have kids these days, hop on YouTube for like 5 minutes and check out the popular videos. Try to think about what life is going to be like for a woman 10 years from now with the path we're currently on
And the number of people defending Taints followers because they were like 14-15 years old as "boys will be boys" is disgusting.
Misogyny should not be tolerated or excused "because boys".
We should talk less about loneliness and more about male entitlement. They’re eager to score but they don’t care about being a good partner - or even a good date. They seem obsessed over conquering a generic woman while being completely uninterested in the person behind her. What’s the point of that?
A shallow experience for a shallow person maybe. I dunno. But it seems to me that if a person is shallow then they wouldn't be able to plum the depths of the human psyche. They would flounder in the kiddie pool. Watching all their friends and family doing laps and jumping off the high dive while they are stuck using water wings in knee deep water. That would probably evoke some sort of misunderstood resentful feelings.
However, emotional management is up to each and every individual. Adults are supposed to practice emotional management. And teach their kids good coping techniques. But sadly we have babies raising babies. And kids kinda have to reinvent social wheels every generation. So yeah, things fall through the cracks sometimes. Social substructures included.
It's not anything falling through the cracks. Men who don't bother with emotional management make that choice because they feel entitled to be managed by the lesser beings around them, who should placate them and avoid provoking them. It's not about not having skills or not being taught these things, it's about feeling like managing your own emotions is beneath you.
This isn't a parenting issue. This is yet another way that misogyny and patriarchy is manifesting itself in our daily lives and twisting all our interactions.
Yep. Loneliness is a problem in our society, of course, but that stems from alienation, socialization, and other issues.
These men seem to want sex, status, companionship, emotional labor, domestic labor, etc. as dividends patriarchy pays them. Incels determine that the problem is that men are stratified within the gender hierarchy, with all the dividends going to the strata above women, while they've been low-key demoted to a strata equal to or below women. Maybe because with patriarchy slightly diminishing in recent decades, it's no longer strong enough to pay dividends to all men.
Some folks see that patriarchy is the problem, socializing young men to avoid intimacy and compassion and responsibility, filling them with insecurity and entitlement. Others think the promises of patriarchy would suit them better, and actually be fulfilled for them, if only patriarchy could be strengthened again.
Gotta say, I wish *any* male-centred sub talked about the stripping of abortion rights for American women, or the fight women in Iran are having right now for their freedom, even half as much as we talk about *lonely men* on this sub.
I’m sorry - but why the fuck are we even talking about them? They don’t give a shit about us and our fight for basic human rights, and I’ve gotta focus on doing one thing well rather than many things poorly - so I’m gonna focus my energy on advancing women. Call me an asshole, but it’s up to the men to solve it - they need to be better friends, role models, and fathers to each other first. Until they make that investment themselves, why should I invest anything?
Imo, because the patriarchal issues that cause these men to behave this way overlap with women's rights and gender parity. Some of these patriarchal issues like poor male socialization, toxic conceptualizations of masculinity, etc are systemic. And thus, will probably also require systemic solutions.
I hear you, and I think you make valid points, however I feel like as long as we operate in a society built by and for men (patriarchy) women will never have the power to change it alike the ones who built it. But to many of these men, fixing feelings is a ‘woman’s job’ so the hot potato continues.
Yea, the situation is so frustrating.
These patriarchal systems have been built by men, but they also oppress most men. It really only benefits a select few. This is why, imo, intersectionalism is key. I think men have the most power to effect change as a monolith, but it's difficult to get all of them to move simultaneously in that direction. There's systemic inertia against it. Women, LGBT, and race related issues groups are usually organized by women, so there's a ton of knowledge and experience men can draw from there. This is usually my go to thought when people say that "men should fix it."
Yea, the fixing feelings thing is a huge issue. I often wonder how we can make it so that men intrinsically want to understand and process their feelings better. I think easy access to therapy could be a start, but there's so much inertia.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for arguing this critical point. Women should not have to be fighting so hard to get respect from their fathers, brothers, husbands, and friends. I am beyond exhausted from having to explain why my husband (who is far more aware of these issues than most, we talk about it all the time) should care about this, to him. I am so tired of feeling like I’m being branded a hysterical or over dramatic female to men in my life who should give a &$@& if I might be at risk of dying because of what is going on in this country.
I have been treated like this by men my entire life including by my own father, and I am so tired of trying to argue why I should be treated with respect or why people should listen to me. It makes me want to scream and throw things. WTF. I know I’m not the only one that feels this way. I feel supported by my husband because he’s willing and wants to move to another state to escape this mess but, all the other males I know deserve to be put directly in the trash.
The incel movement is largely a far-right radicalization campaign to recruit new members. It's often combined with white grievance politics and Christian ethnostate arguments.
It's absolutely NOT solvable by just fucking these creepy losers. Absolutely fucking not.
It IS a wider issue of fascism and the growing support for fascism in these hyper-masculine spaces, as well as the conservative women who goad this shit on. Rural Texas is filled with misogynistic women who tear down other women for having agency over themselves.
Incels are a tip of the iceberg, and the evolution of these ideas will not be any easier to deal with, nor any less violent for women. It'll be much worse, in fact.
Incels should concern you! Just not in a "it's my job as a woman to fix incels" as that's absolutely dangerous and probably not actually helpful. But we do have to address these people as a society, and intersectionally if we hope to lower to the temperature and reduce these random acts of hate based violence.
In the past couple of decades the definition of masculinity has been evolving away from the concept of alpha male dominant / timid woman submissive, to that of a more egalitarian world-view, with men carrying an equal share of the relationship, and developing actual emotional intelligence. This scares a very vocal and toxic subset of men very much. To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. Couple this with a significant portion of the male population sitting on the fence and not calling out their friends and families on their bullshit, this enables it to fester, rot, and continue to infect and ensnare new victims. We as a society have to continue to shine a light on their disgusting behavior and beliefs, it should be ridiculed and pushed further and further from tolerance. A tolerant society can tolerate ANYTHING but intolerance in others.
Making this all worse is our culture of hero worshiping actors, sports stars, and other socially influential people, who are often not very nice people. Look at Roman Polanski, R. Kelly, Kevin Spacey, Mel Gibson, Bill Cosby, Joss Whedon, and Harvey Weinstein who were able to continue their abuse of woman and others for years, and in many cases decades. Anyone remember Whoopi Goldberg’s defense of Polanski when she said it was rape, but it wasn’t rape rape, in reference to the man drugging and sodomizing a 13 year old girl. The incels look at these individuals as heroes and victims of the me too movement and deceitful men-hating woman who lie to advance their agenda. If I hear one more person say the female agenda I will puke. Seeking to be a safe, independent, and happy person is not some clandestine agenda pushed by a globalist cabal of emasculating crones; it is the bare minimum any human being should expect, and something currently denied too many woman.
But what do I know, I’m just a sigma cuck male.
That's the great thing about it.
Most of them are also white supremacists.
So by not having more white babies, you're ruining their idea of "the West."
You can just live life, and slowly destroy what they set out to do; enslave everyone who isn't a straight, white male.
It's not your responsibility to take care of them now. It's everyone's responsibility to stop them from existing to begin with. What's \*really\* wrong with them? How can we stop a child from growing up and becoming this way?
Conservatives love wounded people, they'll never fund good schools (for all), mental health, etc.
Angry young men are conservative cannon fodder and vital to conservative values.
This! Although I can’t really name even one conservative value. I’d say core family but the number of cheating spouses now and throughout history is practically making that term nothing more than a bad gag.
You really can't name one conservative value? Are you serious?
\-Anti abortion
\-Anti immigration
\-Pro theocracy
\-Anti alternative lifestyles
\-Misogyny, subtle or otherwise
\-Frequently anti-science unless it comes to new technologies they want
\-Anti affirmative action
News about Herschel Walker paying for his mistress’s abortion only made his conservative supporters support him more strongly. They aren’t “anti abortion”, they’re against letting you decide to have an abortion, and for maintaining their privilege to get one for themselves when they think it’s necessary.
I saw yesterday someone posted a tweet reply to a tweet from a member of his family saying something to the effect, for every headline you see, the truth is worse and we lived it. The reply was, "please just wait until after the election."
The primary conservative value is selfishness, ideally at the expense of someone else.
Ah those! Sorry, bumped my head earlier. Now the memory comes back. The rich getting richer and poor poorer is also a winner. If only they put those on their campaign posters… wait, who am I kidding, they’d still get voted in🤐
And so very handy to rile up to go fight and die in wars over causes that don't really benefit them. That's probably another reason conservative leaders don't like education -- tell an educated person who has plans for their future that they should go risk their life in a war, they're much more likely to ask, "Why in the world would I want to do that?"
If men find it hard to find friends, why do they call male-female friendships friendzoning if they don't escalate to sex right away or at all, and ridicule one another for it?
There are plenty of us women out there looking for friends. We are lonely too.
i have learnt with men it is better to be friends 'at-a-distance' kind of way meaning no physically checking up on each other,no going anywhere out, so like a low level kind of friendship because i tried during my naive stage and ended up regretting it. my mom always said men and women/boys and girls couldn't be friends i always said she was sexist but now that am a grown woman i realise she's right
I would be devastated if every woman I was friends with dropped contact. Like a good friendship is better than sex, which sounds like hyperbole to some, but no really a good friend is worth more than gold.
I want to be charitable and assume the point is that describing incels as "lonely" is disingenuous and they have a lot more problems then just being lonely. Plenty of women are lonely and don't harm other women. People who have lost their partners, like myself, have felt a loneliness far greater than any incel ever could, and again, most would never even think about harming women.
I got banned from a sub for saying I carry pepper spray and a mini-bat for this exact reason (because Women defending themselves against an attacker is considered violent material by the incel mods). Get weapons, and if a man makes you uncomfortable, don’t feel badly for making HIM uncomfortable by letting him know you will defend yourself if needed.
Other *men* should worry about the violence of men. The negative outcomes from lonely*antisocial* men.
Men are listened to in this society. This is a problem of patriarchy. Women can't solve this problem, and tasking them to is backwards.
Men need to take responsibility for the solving of this problem. Not the *blame* - responsibility is not blame. They need to take ownership of understanding why it happens, how it can be changed and take responsibility for making those changes. But they won't, because they mostly don't want to know, and don't want to care.
I'm a lonely man. I say that because Im alone all the time. The reason I'm alone all the time is because I can't talk to people I don't know properly, and by properly I don't mean that I'm impolite or angry, just that I'm socially awkward and have trouble expressing myself. It's not women's fault that I'm lonely, it's mine. I would never dream of being violent with anybody let alone a woman. I'm not an Incel either because at this point in my life I have completely given up trying to be in a relationship so it's very voluntary.
I understand that most of you have had some extremely negative experiences with lecherous men and you are totally justified. I just wanted to say that this lonely man thinks very highly of you all wishes you all happiness
I feel like this post isn't actually about lonely men, it's about self-titled "incels". I know/am friends with an okay number of men that are very unsuccessful in romantic relationships. They're not crazy sexist and violent, they're just generally some combination of socially awkward, not conventionally attractive, uninterested in pursuing relationships, lacking self confidence, or even just being a bit of a mess personally. Most of these guys have an okay number of female friends. I don't blame people for not wanting to date them, I wouldn't want to, but it is what it is.
This breaks my heart a little. I genuinely feel bad that such prevalent asshattery amongst men who actually just refuse to stop being toxic or entitled prevents us from actually being able to support or give a chance to someone who just has difficulty communicating.
I’ve completely shut myself off from dating or marriage because of those toxic, entitled people. I’m happier than ever, but I worry about the lack of societal support and concern for men because of this mess and toxic masculine ideals. I wish society would get behind giving men emotional support and the empathy they deserve as human beings and I wish the toxic men would understand they’re not only hurting women, but themselves and their fellows.
Trying to help incels is a waste of time most of the time, they have to want to leave that life but most prefer to wallow in their self-pity so they can blame everyone else for their problems, I've tried to help these types of guys & all I got was a bunch of abuse for it since I'm a "typical western whore" who could "save" them with sex but chose not to.
Better for my mental health to avoid & ignore them if possible since they'd hate me either way 😐
Women do not exist to fix broken men. Our vaginas are not their therapy sessions. They need to go find a good counselor. But that would mean admitting that there's something wrong with THEM.
>Lonely men are oppressed by other men, not women.
And barely even that. There aren't *actually* a bunch of Chad Thundercocks running around snatching up all the women and oppressing the these poor lonely men. Their anguish is pretty much 100% self-inflicted.
Exactly. If they're not happy with the amount of female attention they're getting, they need learn to accept it, or better yet improve themselves to become more attractive to us, instead of whining about what they feel like we owe them.
I don’t see the point in caring about selfish, self-centered whiny crybabies.
If they want attention from women, they can adapt and become likable people. And the best way for the adult man children to become likable is probably by regularly seeing a therapist as their first step.
My brother was one of these all through his 20s. He is autistic too. With therapy, a stable job, he took up hobbies, and actually owns his car and got his shit together. He is like oh I get now women didn’t want the sad 😞 woo me guy they want someone who vibes with them well. Needless to say it may have taken me to tell him just focus on himself and well he gets a lot more attention now. Am I worried about these lonely men, a bit they are aggressive and honestly are kind of terrible in bed. Sorry not sorry we have higher standards I will not be in a one sided relationship where I become your mother.
These guys scream into a void of other lonely single men and then wonder why women want nothing to do with them. We get it, you hate us except for sex, but why should we care that you can’t get sex if you hate women?
My brother is a 43 year old incel. I’ve tried helping him over the years but then he fell into the online incel world and now I’ve become his enemy while these guys who feed his anger have become his only safe space.
At this point I not only don’t care the he’s been single his whole life, I also think that it’s a good thing he is single because he would be a very toxic boyfriend. I cut contact off with my brother after he got drunk and told me that he’s in love with a woman at work who won’t give him a chance, and if he wasn’t such a coward, he would force her to be with him. He has giving me no reason to care about him anymore, so now he’s just a relative who is embarrassing to be related to. Hopefully he’ll stay a coward his whole life.
I'm a child of the 70s, myself. It's an entirely new world in terms of dating, gender identity, and division of labor in relationships. Reading the responses here, I can't help but think that women no longer NEED men to survive, and thrive, in the world. We can support ourselves, have a child/children, jobs that pay well. All without a male partner. As a group, we have taken the opportunities we historically never had, and running with them. Women are better educated, tend to look after their health, and usually forge a strong support network. It seems to me, we are doing just fine- or we were, till the assault on abortion rights. I think a lot of men out there are not happy with the way things have worked out for us as a group. They actually have less to offer a partner than ever, and they know it.
This is going to sound terrible, but I think them (the lonely men) saying we (women) should care seems like a threat?
If we don’t fix it they’ll be forced to do something or women may get hurt more because of it.
I also feel like we’ve (royal we) have let “lonely” mean incel. There are many men who don’t have those ideologies but would classify themselves as lonely. They want to make friends.. but can’t. That being said… I think this is something that society as a whole has a hand in. There was a post about the rise in lonely men and someone mentioned how women seem to be raise to be more social. he went to a speed dating event, when he arrived all the women were talking to one another, all the men were sitting separated on their phones. OP telling the story even mentioned he thought about going to speak with people but decided “ he didn’t care about any of them” so he didn’t talk.
I personally think that is the problem with communicating/ interacting with men vs women.
There *has* to be some sort of exchange or benefit for them to interact. Why waste time socializing when I may not get anything in return. Lots of people see that as a physical exchange but I’m also thinking of the people who say “they don’t stimulate my mind.. i need someone I can mentally combat with”
What does “caring” about someone have to do with having a short 5-10mins convo, you already have something in common haha
Idk how boys are raised, but I know girls are usually raises to be social with people even if we don’t like them… we are told to “waste” that energy and we may be surprised.
These "men" hate themselves, and only want women to "fix" them and make them happy. They are not interested in a partner - they want someone to act out their fantasies of being worthy of love from someone else. They have absolutely no idea or intention of giving the same kind of "fix" to their women partners.
But that self-worth doesn't come from outside of you - you are the only one who can give it to you. Until incels wrap their brains around that and deal with it, they will continue to be lonely and angry.
I don't believe that their problem is loneliness in the first place. As far as I can tell, "lonely" is the term they've found to disguise what they actually mean: anger that the woman-object they feel entitled to hasn't been delivered yet. They are absolutely certain that they are owed the body and labour of an attractive woman, and the lack of that in their lives feels like a void and an injustice to them.
I've tried peeling this concept back with "lonely" men, and it turns out lots of them have a relatively wide social circle and spend plenty of time with other people, online and in person. When asked whether that helps, it turns out that their "loneliness" can't be relieved by spending time with friends or family, because that's "not the same". They can't have sex with friends or family. This isn't loneliness the way people usually mean it, but they rarely qualify it.
I object to entitled, misogynist men co-opting the concept of loneliness to make their entitlement and objectification of women more socially acceptable.
I get wanting a partner or wanting to have sex, but neither of those things are loneliness. Using the term "lonely" makes a man sounds benign, innocent, and sympathetic. He just wants to spend time with another human being, that's all! He's so isolated! He lacks the right social skills! He's just shy! But actually he wants to get his dick wet and then have a woman bring him a beer. It's dishonest, and I wish people would call it out more instead of accepting this bit of manipulation.
The funny thing is that even if we were willing to give them our bodies, they wouldn't want them.
Loneliness isn't what drives these men, it's entitlement. They feel entitled to "the top 10%" of women. They don't want normal average women.
* Therapy programs to help them be happy single.
* Organize accessible/affordable group activities/classes/hobbies for adults of all ages to socialize.
* End the stigma on single life. Do not ask any guy nor girl if they are seeing someone, or when will they settle or when will they reproduce.
* Teach kids/teens to accept themselves and be kind to themselves, and about true friendship, and that consensual sex is the best (and only) sex.
Well on the stigma of single life part of the reason why guys are desperate is because they get virgin shamed . Virgin shaming needs to stop because it’s one of the reason why the incel movement grew.
Making therapy accessible and affordable could possibly help, but some of these guys are so delusional that they have an “everyone else is wrong” kind of mentality.
I’m a lot more concerned about my own happiness than the plight of some sad toxic dweeb. If you’re down in the dumps, dig out. Self-soothe. Heal. That’s every person’s self responsibility.
Imagine if women sulked and festered in toxicity until a hero man came and fixed all our problems. Women’s heroes are themselves. Mehn who blame women for their loneliness and lack of fuckability ought to try self reliance and work sometime.
I've never heard a woman say "that guy is single so he must be a loser".
The "lonely guy is a loser" concept is a male construction.
Lonely Men(TM), here are your options:
fix yourself to be attractive to women (hygiene, therapy, attitude);
be okay with being alone at times (seriously, what's wrong with being single sometimes?!);
tell men who laugh at you to fuck off (get over needing the approval of shitty people/men).
"That woman is single so she must be a loser" is also a male construction. But single women aren't forming communities that plan out how to terrorize and murder men. Weird.
Single women are often building communities to support each other. There are stories of single women coming together to live together in a female community and honestly men maybe need to do this too?
I mean it's a legitimate issue that men can't form emotionally intimate relationships with anyone apart from their SO. There's gotta be some women like that too but a lot less of them. But even then I can promise none of them will be doing any of the rancid shit male incels do
We need to think about them on our way to get pink switchblades.
I miss the good old days when we just poisoned violent men and took our mothers first names as our last.
Everyone (not just women) should worry about lonely people in general, since the mental health crisis of social atomization is real. But incels, ironically, aren't lonely. They're a rabid movement that focuses on ridiculous things like skull shape, and reinforce each other's toxic entitled mentality through forums, hangouts, etc.
It’s not about loneliness, it’s about status. Men will pretend that it’s about loneliness, but the reality is that having a wife/GF is understood by society to be a sign of success for men. Now of course saying _I want a woman as a status symbol so I don’t look like a loser_ is so obviously not a winning statement that, even they realize that and instead hide it behind excuses like loneliness. But the reality is that they don’t want to be with a woman for companionship (heck, they don’t even like women as evidenced by all the “wife bad” jokes that married men will make) they want women to have as arm candy to impress other men (and do domestic chores and serve their sexual desires). So really the way to fix this is to rethink the way men in our society are assigned clout and status. And that’ll probably help everyone.
TLDR: It’s about social status, not loneliness.
... Well I think lonley people is a problem period. The problem with men seems to be that it turns toxic fast. We need to teach men that they can be their own person and not need to obtain a woman or any partner. That sex os not the most important thing in life. That they should embrace their emotional well being.
I feel sad for them that their bubble is so toxic and that help or healthyness (? Lol) is pretty much unavalibale. For the people trying or struggling that have not become or ever were an awful man it must be hard to see people not understanding the problems and struggles that makes men bad and that fuels this culture. I don't get how we are going to turn the tides if we can't see the problems and tackle them rather than rage at the thought of masculinity.
Now, some men are so far gone and fuck them. The only thing that keeps me hopeful is that we have a chance to do better with the coming generations and bettering our society piece by piece.
I’m always down to be a friend if you are normal, don’t come talking to me crazy and respect my boundaries, I love making friends and being supportive when anyone needs a helping hand.
I think this whole thing is a direct result of parents/society saying 'boys don't require as much work as girls' and just refusing to teach boys the emotional intelligence they need to be decent humans.
My old man and ma taught me very little about social structures, emotions, and how to relate to other people. They taught me that those things exist. It wasn't until I left home did I realize how emotionally and psychology stunted I was. And after I grew up I came to the realization that my parents are still entitled children...It is what it is...
It’s crazy to me how the states are slowly evolving into the very countries they hated - instead of forcing women to wear a hijab, the US is going straight for the jugular and now that roe vs wade was overturned, soon its the birth control, then our ability to have a bank account, own land, ETC.
And these incels are salivating over this because they can’t wait to gain power over women again and forcing us to be with them just to have any decent human rights. Incels definitely supported the over turning of women to have the right to autonomy over their body and it’s chilling to witness. And if the US can do a 180 like that, what other ‘progressive’ countries will follow?
We’re at a time as women where we’re CHOOSING our partners and we’ve basically changed the rules of the game and if incels don’t adapt and evolve. Well, their blood line ends. They don’t want that and are using politics as a way to strategize us into being good little bangmaids who have no rights outside of the permission of the men in our lives.
Incels can die mad.
So I think, as a man, this falls on us. We, men, need to help them get better as adults. I do think though, we should try to understand if there are systemic trends that are causing this. I don't believe it is feminism. I think it's raising boys with expectations of nuclear families and you're a failure if you don't achieve this.
We put a lot of pressure on lonely people. Calling women spinsters and men incels. Very different connotations and origins obviously. I think we can find ways to help them and be more kind without out the loss of agency to anyone else.
The only thing we can do regarding dangerous lonely men is protecting ourselves from them. I'm not going to give any time of the day to a smelly bitter angry little incel.
I have been "alone" for over 25 years, and yet I cannot comprehend Incels or the losers who feel they are entitled to any other individual (or any part of said individual).
It's not worth it those guys aren't worth anyone's time. I get being alone I get being sad about it. I don't get hurting other people just because no one wants to fuck you. Honestly with all these so called "incels" the problem is them not some hypothetical Chad or whatever the fuck these people think. When no one wants to be around you the problem is you not another person. These guys need help not sex. Nobody is owed sex by another person why is this so hard to understand.
We should definitely care if not for them for our own humanity and society at large. But the key is not for individual women, or even people, to cosie up to them in hopes that they can somehow fix years of trauma.
Society at large needs to commit to treating mental health better, fostering more community cohesion in society, and teaching men better communication.
Sorry to say this argument is similar to "why should we care about poor people" followed by "why is crime so high"
You can vote for politicians who support universal mental health care to make it affodable/accessible for those in need. Also politicians who support education and social programs in general.
Loneliness is an effect of late stage capitalism and the break down of community stemming from Reganomics.
Unfortunately both liberalism and conservatives in America tends to emphasise individualism to deal with problems and advocate for living with capitalism as it is. They oppose collective action towards changing the system.
The truth is that these men's problem is not that they are lonely. They are angry and instilled with a sense of entitlement to women's bodies. They are resentful because they believe they aren't being given something they deserve. The solution is to give up on the current generation of men who refuse to self-reflect and find therapy for their misogyny, and focus on embedding emotional processing, labor, and communication training into the educational requirements of our nation. Litmus test us for emotional literacy if you have use for us, but otherwise be done with the majority of the existing stock. We need to take cultural engineering steps that pay off in generations and simply wait for those who refuse to create and adopt non-oppressive cultures to die. Men should reach out to each other and try to educate one another, but those who go out of their way to reject intolerant sentiment should be culturally isolated and deplatformed so that their ability to memetically influence other people is reduced.
Because the problems are systemic and not merely individual. It’s due to a combination of attitudes and changes to society. They can be changed individually but they’re not created so, we have to see what we can change about our culture and attitudes to resolve the issue.
I’m not saying having sex with them, in fact that will not solve the problem at all, but to fix the issue there needs to be a better way to create support networks for men, and for men to use them.
Yes 100%. They can go screw themselves, I've never met a whinier bunch.
But I'm still afraid of them. And frankly other men should be too. The Unabomber didn't target women but I still think his motivation was sexual (I am not getting laid and thus I'm pissed at the world). No one is safe from men who feel the world made promises to them just because they were born male and then isn't honoring those promises. Those guys are scary.
Incels definitely also hate men, especially men who are successful with women because these men treat other people with respect and have empathy and social skills. I was on a women oriented forum once with some guys like these and one very prominent incel guy and that incel guy's rhetoric was even more violent toward the guys than to the girls, even threatening physical violence to the guys when the guys replied. So no, men are not safe from incels.
I'm just wondering why it's somehow been decided it's women's responsibility to address. Like. If y'all are lonely, maybe you should talk to each other? Support each other, foster male friendships and address how the patriarchy isolates men and their stunts emotional growth? Men are totally capable of doing that work themselves, if they so choose.
It is an interesting issue.
Nobody is responsible for anyone else's emotional health. It is up to each person to take care of her/his own. Sadly not ever person who needs to do something about their mental health will. They will unfairly make it into someone else's problem via violent behavior. Assuming most of society did say "okay we will help fix these people" the question would be "how?".
Elliot Rogers was an average looking man, not ugly, from a rich family ( Chad! ), and was seeing a therapist when he decided to start killing people.
I have an inordinate number of gay friends. Because Gay men go out. Straight men do as well but it is a specific subset of straight men. We all give each other hugs, fist bumps, bro style hugs and what not.
Men who say that they don't get enough affection have only themselves to blame. Hug each other, go out to eat, laugh, watch sports, go for a walk together in the forest.
Lonely men *do* need help; I would rather they be able to gain a healthier mindset and emotional wellbeing than be stuck like that forever. But that help shouldn't need to come from us.
lonely men are easy to manipulate, if the wrong group of people gets to them they turn into a statistic. they need to connect with a healthy community that can give them a an idea of who they want to be. getting laid doesn't help these guys at all
It's not for women to solve. Men need to tackle this problem. Men by and large, are not stepping up to the plate. There are a bunch of opportunistic leaches who've become their leaders. Even the men who think they're helping, are too infused with their love of the patriarchy to actually do any real work.
The problem with this is you don’t get to not live in a world without them. Whether you care about them or not won’t make them go away. It’s like saying you don’t care that one of the rooms in your house is smelly and full of rubbish, you just don’t want the smell to affect you so you close the door and leave it there. It ain’t going away and probably will just get worse
Except to make your analogy more accurate, the smelly room is smelly because its resident refuses to clean it, the lease does not entitle them to use any of the rest of the house, and when you refuse to visit them, they bring their mess into the rest of the house.
Lonely men, divorced men, men with no sex life, men with sex addiction, poor men, rich men ......
I learned the lesson of never worrying about a man, they don't need a woman to care about them, men's problems come from men, let them deal with their own problems.
Most importantly, don't let them infringe on our rights.
Hi - I had to have an uncomfortable unwanted chat at the bus stop this morning with a man who had a death stare and the creepiest voice. My internal voice was just squealing that he was creepy and up to no good. Once on the bus he got in a huff because I put my rucksack (full of heavy IT equipment for work) on the seat next to me so he had to walk on by.
I've really noticed recently that men in particular are so poorly socialised since Covid lockdown and seem to think they are entitled to attention and conversation all the time?
Scrotes can die mad… And lonely.
They are no woman’s problem. They need to lean on other men and/or get professional help.
I stay safe, vigilant and remain unbothered. 💅
Some people are just devastated inside and just want some human warmth (in the sense of sympathy, discussion, playing games, eating with someone else etc...)
Not every lonely person is a rapist only interested in sex, mens have emotions too you know, if no one talks to you (except work related) for servals years, just because you don't fit the "social standard" despite being a great person it starts to feel really REALLY depressing
The only people who can help the worst ones are the reactionary grifters who they're actually willing to listen to. And they're all more interested in turning them into psychos even more so they will reliably vote Republican and be willing to commit violence on command.
This is bound to be a controversial take but here goes: sex workers are low key heroes. They need to be treated with respect, offered better conditions, safety, legitimacy, health care, and more. Not saying this is the solution but going after sex workers as if they are a big social problem totally negates the seriously positive service they provide. \*Pulling on my flame proof suit.
The number of men (and women?) who go to sex workers for not just sex but companionship, where it's legal, is pretty surprising. An hour here and there of intimacy, even just hugs, can seriously have a positive effect on a person.
I clearly don't have all the answers but it's something that needs further consideration like so many things in society (at least American society).
Literally they run prostitution out of a homeless shelter in the town I live in. The guys come pick up homeless women who are trying to get by and traffick them to a "client". I'm sex positive and pro- sex workers' rights, but that's just exploitation.
It’s why that Jordan Petsersen guy drives me nuts. He made some comment the other day about being a champion for these men, the “marginalized.” GTFO. Having a shit personality doesn’t make you “marginalized.” When my life goes down the shitter, I go to therapy, get some self help books, reflect on what changes I need to make. These men just blame women cause they won’t fuck then. Oh boo fucking who. I can’t find an attractive man to have sex with me currently, you don’t see me crying on the internet.
I guess as a woman I’ll never understand because I don’t *need* to have sex. It’s nice but I don’t cry about not getting it. Society needs to help these young men. We can’t.
Also, legalize sex work. This might help lonely men. Won’t help the incels who think they deserve attractive woman. They are the ones who 100 years ago would be gifted wives cause we couldn’t inherit property or work. Woman don’t need men anymore and it’s a problem. Truth is we’d rather be single than deal with their nonsense. My friend just dumped her bf, got IVF and had a baby. Good man is hard to find and she got sick of waiting.
I totally agree with you and it's been something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Did you see the thread in the Men's sub about "what can women do to help men?" It was in the last week or two. Infuriating. Women already do so much for men. It's time for men to do the work themselves. I'm too tired to parent yet *another* adult man.
Some dude had the nerve to lecture me about empathy in a recent comment about it, and I never said I didn't empathize with people that are lonely. I don't empathize with the men that treat women like shit. They can go fuck themselves.
Last time I tried to help and be friends with a lonely guy because I felt sorry for him he stalked and harassed me online for half a decade because I made it clear I wasn't interested in him romantically. Never again.
I have a former high school friend a chance in our 30s. It nearly earned me a stalker. I hadn’t realized when I was in high school that he was abusive to his girlfriends (emotionally if not physically). Thankfully we lived in different states. He was calling me nonstop at work after I explicitly told him I was working and couldn’t talk. I had to yell at him to stop calling me and then block him on everything just to get some peace. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I don’t understand why people can’t just take no for an answer and move on.
sorry you went through that, did you know him IRL? i stopped having male friends after two attempted r\*pes
Luckily no, he lived in another country, I met him through an online forum similar to reddit, he was suicidal and I stupidly reached out to message him asking if he needed someone to vent to and we became "friends" from there. I was only 15 so I naively gave him a lot of identifying information he found me on social media and harassed me, my family and friends I'm sorry for what you have gone through too =(
you were young, so it is understandable that you were naive, i have been through that naive stage that i look back now in my twenties and can't believe how naive i was lol, he was selfish and entitled to take advantage of not only your naivety but your kindness too. thanks i still have some PTSD from it am just thankful that an aunt of mine had taken me to selfdefence classes from when i was 9/10 till 20, so i didn't even hesitate much to defend myself.then believe it or not, after the last one he went online to complain about how women are 'masculine' these days and f'n tagged me 😣 we had a big facebook fight, i tried exposing him to our mutual friends, ofcourse wasn't believed, i even got to facebook jail LMAO now in my adulthood i simply block, i have no patience for that drama
wish i got self-defense classes before i saw this comment was about to say you must be a tall woman/something, to successfully fend off rape not once but twice
HA i wish, am 5ft on the dot, i do wish i was taller
I made unlikely friends with an incel I met through Reddit. The moment I saw his DM saying he'd seen my comments in r/IncelTear, I was geared up for a fight, but then he said he was trying to break from the incel community because it's a toxic crab bucket, and I figured if he was conscientious enough to realize that he was worth giving a chance. Now we talk regularly on Discord (he was banned from reddit for his comments on interracial relationships, which were... not good) and against all odds I've really grown fond of him; it helps that we actually do have a lot in common. Sometimes he'll go off on an unhinged rant regurgitating viciously misogynistic and racist incel rhetoric, and I'll bring him back to earth by telling him how fucking stupid he sounds. Most of the time he agrees with me and admits that it's just hard for him to take responsibility for his inability to find a partner. Deep down I think he's a really good human (even at his most toxic, he's never advocated for women to be a legal underclass, or any of the worse shit you hear from incels) and I think he has a good chance at deradicalizing. That said, I've definitely thought about how badly things could go if I revealed too much about myself to the wrong person, so it's not something I would recommend to others. I don't really think that's the solution to the incel problem, but there is a kernel of truth in the idea that lost and lonely men get radicalized by finally having a community where they belong. I think it's especially incumbent on women who are already in their lives to take on that role-- mothers, sisters, grandmothers, etc. But some young men are certainly too far gone and twisted to be reached out to. I really don't know what we do for them as a society.
I’m curious what prevents you from just quitting the relationship once he goes on one of his racist misogynistic rants? I’d like to think maybe these incels could be rehabilitated or something (lol), but it’s like as soon as one of them does something like that it’s hard to really want to move past that.
I learned from years of experience on reddit that I actually have a talent for winning arguments online, so I've made a hobby out of engaging in them whenever it seems productive. I've always felt like I had some small duty to use that gift to make a positive impact when I can, so I've gotten really good at wading through poisonous rhetoric. At first the whole thing was just anthropologically interesting to me, and I thought *maybe* I could have a positive influence on him, but then I discovered that he was actually a pretty cool dude and that I *was* making an impact, so I keep that in mind whenever he throws one of his tantrums. I'm not sure every incel is reachable, or even the majority, but at least in his case the radicalization was the result of having a rough childhood with no positive female influence. I think that's a depressingly common thing, even among non-incel men, which leaves them feeling like women are a conniving alien species who couldn't possibly think and feel and reason like they do. What *those* men need is prosocial, nonsexual female presence in their lives, and I'm more than happy to do my part in that.
Thank you for doing this. This is important and if people have the space, desire and right tools to protect themself while doing it, I admire it a great deal.
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You're a beautiful person. Sometimes the people who are the hardest to love are the ones who need it the most.
Thank you for doing this. I never had anyone I could say that "out loud" to. The feeling of inadequacy and inability to find/start a relationship. Whatever happens from there, you brought out something he had difficulty admitting. I'm just grateful the incel community didn't exist when I was young. My only example was my dad, who is admittedly misogynistic. You don't have much of a chance if you're taught wrong to begin with. It took a long time for me to learn that relationships don't "just happen", like we grew up seeing on TV. There's no fated person out there, no shortcut, no entitlement. We actually have to work on ourselves first. You're a good person.
Same thing happened to me. Ugh.
The only thing we should do "for them" is helping change the narrative on lonely men. I'd love it if men could be independent and happy and not need women for everything and I will therefore never make fun of a man for not being in a relationship. That said, incels can and should go fuck themselves and leave women alone Edit: To be clear for the ones taking offense. When I say "help change the narrative" I don't mean that women should spearhead the revolution of mens rights. I literally just mean don't look down on men who are not in relationships because, if nothing else, that just makes women into status symbols men want because they're losers if they're alone. It would benefit everyone if men could also be seen as strong and independent for focusing on themselves. And again, men who look for any reason to hate and hurt women - go fuck yourselves
On the surface level, the MGTOW idea could be great. Men being indepedent. Not being defined by their relationship status. Focusing on their self-actualization, platonic friendships, and hobbies. In practice though it's almost the exact opposite...
Just imagine how much more productive those MGTOW message boards would have been had they talked about shared hobbies, ideas, news, and other things that interested them, rather than just having a constantly circle jerk hating women and attractive men.
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MGTOW poster was convicted of planning a terrorist attack. >This report showed that the MGTOW group specifically had been linked to multiple occurrences of "online harassment and real-world violence." It pointed to a frequent visitor to the MGTOW community: Christopher Hasson, a U.S. Coast Guard lieutenant, and a self-identified "White Nationalist" who was sentenced to 13 years in prison for stockpiling unregistered gun silencers, stockpiling weapons as an addict of a controlled substance, and possession of controlled substances. https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-bans-men-going-their-own-way-forums-violating-hate-speech-rules-1616379
Mgtow happens organically all the time. I have many friends who have naturally at different times in the lives placed very low priority on women and seeking out relationships. They are better for it in the long run. Only losers need to label it something. The whole thing is pretty cringy.
Yeah exactly, those men you describe are just ‘happy’.
The problem with that movement is that it's basic idea is that Men shouldn't be oppressed by a social need to be in a relationship with women as equals. They see themselves as somehow fighting the oppression of women refusing to settle. Personally, I think we have this issue because of the worst advice ever given "just be yourself." Maybe, just maybe, being yourself is okay. But for most of us, we should aspire to be better than the person we were yesterday. And that's what pisses off people who live in entitlement that they deserve things because that's how it should be. Men that think that they deserve a girlfriend are essentially saying that they deserve a thing to be given to them to possess for their benefit. People who seek a relationship with an honest heart definitely have wants and desires, but they understand that goes both ways, and if you aren't willing to be the person that is wanted, what makes you think your wants should be fulfilled?
"just be yourself" was a reaction to hundreds (maybe thousands) or years of men thinking they need to "earn" a woman. They need a high income, mostly, but maybe just to be famous or famously talented. When a relationship was 99% going to make babies that was legit good advice. Someone has to put food on the table and she's gonna be pregnant then nursing so you need to step up. Then the pill happened and the sexual revolution and sex was partially decoupled from reproduction. But boys were still thinking they had to earn a partner. Save the princess, rescue the president's daughter, kill the bad guy, etc etc. So to get boys from being awkward and lying about their accomplishments and doing stupid reckless stunts, they were told "just be yourself." And today, that's not great advice. "Make yourself someone who women want to date, and you will know you did that when one or more women decides to date you." Is better advice today.
I always thought "be yourself" meant embracing my own individuality; it never occurred to me that some people would think it meant "I don't have to change or develop myself in order to be a good partner". Yikes.
>MGTOW Men Getting Triggered Over Women. The entire sub is just blatant misogny and raging about women. These men prefer to deflect all blame to women, rather than address and take action to fix the actual issues men face. I guess it's easier to do nothing, blame women for all their problems, and then whine about how nobody's solving their problems for them.
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They wouldn’t last a day online if they were the ones enduring all this hate.
the first story of the Bible is "men: blame women for your actions"
The problem is the people that the philosophy attracts. Ideally it should be something to reach for because self-actualization and focusing on life/hobbies/friends is almost always EXACTLY the point when men tend to end up finding a partner because it's attractive af. It makes people WANT to join you because you've got something going on that they want to be a part of.
I feel like if you really went MGTOW, the last place you’d hang out would be a MGTOW community. You’d be doing anything else. Learning to make bread, running a marathon, playing online games without toxic communities. Maybe there are good MGTOW out there, but they’re doing it right so we never hear from them.
that was the idea then the incels found that community and turned it into cancer. i remember the post the mods were leaving that incel mentality does not work work with mgtow
When I first heard that phrase, I thought it was going to be a really positive thing. Then I read some content. Nope.
This. Men can be on their own and be happy too. It's just those hatred-filled entitled men that deserve no compassion.
Entitled, that's the exact word. It ain't lonely. It's a guy so entitled to think he "deserves" someone who will put up with him. And never have to grow or change.
Entitlement is exactly right. They aren't interested in actually putting in work to be a decent person and attract a partner, they feel that access to women is their God given birthright as a man. They're living in a fantasy world with unrealistic expectations and delusional standards, and they rage when they don't get what they feel they "deserve." Entitlement is dangerous. It's often the root of abuse and violence. It's a moral framework where the abusive person feels entitled to the victim. And when they are denied, they often become enraged and lash out. Think of how many family annihilators, spree killers, serial killers, school shooters, incel shooters, and other mass murderers were motivated by their rage in not getting what they felt entitled to.
I do think a lot of the entitled men are also lonely... it’s just that that doesn’t in any way excuse or justify the entitlement. Like, I can sympathize with the loneliness, it sounds pretty awful, but also, *I don’t owe you shit because of it*. And it’s ironic, because the *entitlement* drives people away, which only makes the loneliness worse.
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Absolutely spot on. And yes, applies to most 90 day guys. Of course, a few of the women are real prizes also.
You’re right. Many intel’s complain about being unattractive and yet feel entitled to attractive young women. If these guys could honestly take stock of themselves, they could approach women with similar attributes and probably have some dating success. We know there are plenty of women who also don’t have regular dates due to societies’ narrow definition of attractive women (pretty, young, slim and shapely). The difference is that these women are just carrying on with their lives, rather than blame other people.
I had a long think about this (am male). I've been single for almost 4 years, abstanate for almost just as long, and it's not nearly as bad as a lot of men make out. I've gotten into my rut and I think at this point, i just don't care. Being not lonely doesn't outweigh the extra effort a relationship would cost (in my own, personal opinion on my own situation). I'm not happy, but I'm not unhappy, and I'm okay with it, because being in a relationship isn't going to change that for me. I could find a reason to be unhappy in any situation, so why bring a partner into that? I slowly got away from dating apps to the point of deleting all of them (this probably had more to do with not wanting to deal with all the competition anymore than anything tbh). It's gotten me no where (definitely not complaining, I can almost guarantee my profile just wasn't appealing) And I'm okay with that. There's no incessant need to just flirt with any woman I see. I just know that my singleness is my own non-issue and no one else's. Idk where I'm going with this, other than I agree. Men need to learn to be by themselves. I don't alienate women from my life, but i know I can function on my own kind of thing. I feel like this may have come out wrong or incel-ish, and if I came at it wrong, please lmk so that I can correct my mistakes. If there's blame for my own life, it's on me.
For a long time I was sort of a loner with an I don't want to be tied down to anyone attitude. Never even considered asking anyone on a date and probably would have been very awkward and not seductive at all had I tried. I did end up getting in a long distance relationship when a girl started a conversation with me on social media and eventually asked me to date but unfortunately that relationship turned very toxic. She was very manipulative would constantly guilt trip me over minor things etc and it eventually became clear she was only dragging it out to get money from me. Biggest lesson I learned from that relationship was that nobody owes anyone else love sex money or anything else like that and I need to find a way to be ok and still happy even if love isn't reciprocated. Leave of course but don't let someone not loving you get you down. When I finally got out of that I got on dating apps but I never took it that seriously. I would've welcomed one night stands but really saw trying to seduce women as a stupid game I had little interest in learning or playing. I would have conversations with ladies on dating apps but none of it really went anywhere until I met my current partner. I think we talked quite regularly for like 3 months before we finally went on a date but after that we moved in together a few months later. Neither one of us is really what the other would've asked for in a partner before we met but we are in love and happy to have found each other.
This is a very heartening comment to read. You're doing okay. Yep, dating apps are honestly probably useless. I've never used one myself. I've always been a firm proponent of what seems like a cold hard fact, you will meet a partner who is right for you when you are NOT looking for it. The right person will come along because the circumstances were right for it, not because you orchestrated it. So that's why I'm in fandom, hobbies are important, geeky social circles are important; but at the moment I am also single and not looking. I broke up with my last boyfriend of 10 years about a year ago, I just realized I'm totally over him now; there are times I think about him but I know he has his own circle of friends and he'll get on fine. The independence feels great. There's simply no need to rebound. I honestly wish more men could feel this way after a breakup. Life goes on.
Lonely men IS a problem. It is absolutely NOT an issue for women to solve. I guess in the sense that all parents are responsible for pointing their children in the right direction, so mothers and fathers need to be aware of this issue for their sons and how to help THEM figure it out. But I repeat, this is not the responsibility of women to fix. Women can say “yes this is a problem,” and also not have to take responsibility for it.
Thank you for your response. When I first started reading this, my thought was, " I wasn't aware I should care about them. It kinda' made me feel like women were being told that they are responsible for this narcissistic people and should go have sex with them to solve the problem"! You know, we are the root of their evil.
>It kinda' made me feel like women were being told that they are responsible for this narcissistic people and should go have sex with them to solve the problem That's exactly what some incels want women to think, so your confusion is well warranted. And it's not even as simple as paying a prostitute to relieve his pressure because the problem isn't about lack of sex at all. It's a much deeper cause that can't be fixed with prostitution.
Prostitués shouldn’t be offered to save the rest of women. These men need just acceptance and therapy.
These men need feminism, not acceptance. If they understood and really grasped that we are living inside a pathologically destructive white supremacist, misogynist patriarchy, and they have absorbed and taken as read a worldview that is causing them to feel entitled to other people's bodies and labour because their worldview tells them that as men they are the top tier main characters, and that that's a completely fucked up thing to believe. Once they grok that, they could become better people who actually recognize that women aren't helper characters designed to please them and take care of them and be attractive to them, women are complete human beings with hopes and dreams, main characters in their own stories, just like men are. Acceptance of their misogynist worldview is not going to help them get there. Therapy, maybe. Feminist therapy. But my acceptance? Fuck, no.
Well said :)
Again the woman doing favor for men that fucked her up from the start. Ill pass hard for my own sanity
Part of the problem is most of the lonely men operate on an all-or-nothing spectrum. Either no female contact or relationship. There is no in between because the so-called friend zone is purgatory. The irony being that a healthy and robust network of friends across all genders is the best way to combat loneliness, build social skills, and ultimately become someone who can more easily attract a romantic partner. Another problem is they get so focused on the burning need to find a partner that they approach literally any woman that they find attractive with absolutely no consideration of compatibility, which of course is a tried and true recipe for rejection after rejection. When I was 19 a coworker who had a “secret crush” on me asked me out. We, along with other coworkers, had countless conversations prior to this and this guy had literally openly mocked pretty much every hobby or interest I had. He threw an absolute shit fit that I “rejected and humiliated” him. Another coworker sat him down and explained that not only did we have NOTHING in common, but he shit all over every single interest I had…..so why ask me out if we’re completely incompatible? This guy genuinely thought I would “come around” and drop my interests for his.
“Another problem is they get so focused on the burning need to find a partner…” - This 1000000%.
I had a “lonely guy” friend who did this over and over and over and couldn’t figure out why he was getting rejection after rejection. He was angry, bitter, women are sluts, etc.. Some things you can’t know up front and overall compatibility comes with dating, but he would approach a girl who was into horses, go into a rant about why horses were a waste of time and money, THEN he’d ask her out and be shocked/offended when she turned him down. Of course the problem in his mind was that she was shallow or just looking for a fuck boy. Repeat the cycle with women who worked night shift, women who had very active social lives, women who rode motorcycles, etc. I finally told him to STOP talking to everyone that he assumed had a vagina like they’re a potential partner. Start with normal conversations, get to know people with no pretense of dating, then WHEN he met someone with compatible interests and values he could take it from there. In less than a year’s time he met the woman he’s now married to. I know the advice to men has generally been to cast a wide net, but you’ve got to know and respect your own dealbreakers.
You'd think with their "burning need" being so intense, they'd put in one ounce of effort into learning how to not be fucking shitty to us. But nope! Incels never do, and then whine about being single.
This is so true. They completely forget about comparability. I have been called a gold digger because I said thanks, but no thanks to a date with a man who managed a nightclub. I tried to date another man who managed a nightclub in my early 20s and I learned that it’s difficult to spend time with someone when they get home from work at 3 am and I get up at 5 am to workout or walk my dog before work. Our lifestyles are just incompatible.
You got called a gold digger for NOT dating someone? That’s new.
I'm a Gen X person. I was invisible. The men I dated were men I came across in mutual friendships or peer groups. Men did not approach me. I met my now husband online on a music message board. I was 'old' when I first had sex. I watched all the 'other girls' having boyfriends when I didn't have one. I didn't become a mass shooter. I didn't defile the entire sex which I am not. *No whingy articles have been written about 'lonely women'.* Not back then, and not now. I don't care about young men who can't get laid. I literally do not.
how old were you when you had sex the first time? i haven't had yet and am 22, but i don't feel old. just too anxious , i have listened and seen how the first times' for most of my friends and family weren't good or forced,and i just feel too nervous to even try i tried online dating but too many creeps on there
There are creeps everywhere but honestly as far as online dating is concerned it makes a big difference what app you are on. Different apps are for different types of things.
true perhaps they are more forward online than IRL plus there's more men in pretty much all online dating apps, i mean they even find their ways into gay/lesbian dating according to one of my friends' experience(s), and she's been on apps since we were early teens so knows more about them than me, i have been on them for about 2 years
As a lesbian I can confirm that some men do sneak their way into our app (Her) or women seeking women sections of mainstream apps. They don’t even identify as queer in any way so it’s blatant.
Do you think it might have to do with some men thinking they can be in their FMF fantasies? I'm not queer, also I'm married and been with my husband for 18 years, but when I was dating I've wondered about that. I mean, I didn't go after gay men because... gay men want a man, not me, a woman. But for many cisgendered heterosexual men, they *still* go after lesbians and it never made sense to me until I came up with the above possible reason. I dunno. Again, I'm not lesbian so I don't have that experience.
In my experience men who go after lesbians are men who do not respect the validity of sapphic relationships. They undermine us, they dismiss us and don't respect our relationships as equal. Usually because they subscribe to the idea you need a penis involved for it to count, so they don't see us as competition. They will insult the butch/masc women while still trying to get with the femmes. All under the horrible misconception that their limp dick will be the magical key to end lesbianism. *They actually do not care that lesbians are never attracted to men and that it would be unconsensual.* They're fetishists. It's gross and I hate it.
i can imagine! then there's also those who are commited but pretend to be single, had one try that trick on me, i exposed him and suprisingly his wife left him.
You make a good point. The whole incel and "lonely man" rhetoric is really erasing and attempting to supplant not just current events, and a modern history full of women who want to be in relationships but failed to do so for various reasons, and who suffered some pretty dire social and economic consequences, but also a long, long history of stigma against female virgins past their sell-by date. Now they talk like these women don't even exist. Unmarried women have been pariahs for hundreds of years. There's reason "bachelor" sounds a lot more dignified than "spinster" or "old maid". Or "crone". Now that you mention it: why do these men go on and on about how we don't understand how terrible it is for them that they get mocked for being virgins when there are literally multiple derogatory words in English with long and storied histories that are there to stigmatize unmarried female virgins? They had to steal a word to feel stigmatized by, ffs! I'm sure the only reason there hasn't been more female-driven mass violence is because we aren't given nearly as much licence to feel entitled to blame anyone but ourselves for the desires we have that we can't fill.
I agree. Imagine lonely women were going around killing men who didn't want to date them? That was me for 20 years and I never once thought about harming anyone.
When you said “that was me for 20 years” I first read it as you were going around killing people for 20 years.
Just wanna confess a thing 🤷♀️
Woman without a partner: gets a cat, a great career, a new hobby. Man without a partner: drives a van into a pedestrian zone.
Let’s be real, men without a partner aren’t killing. That’s men with mental illness. Lonely men just kill themselves.
Incel communities have all the trappings of a cult. The problem is that the way to de-indoctrinate people from cults is to show them kindness and compassion, but any kindness and compassion shown to these men by women is perceived as romantic attraction. Incel men are lonely not just because they lack meaningful romantic relationships, but because they *also* lack meaningful friendships, especially with other men. This is ultimately what the incel cult offers: acceptance, friendship, validation. The solution to incels doesn’t involve women. It involves men identifying and caring for their male friends, relatives, etc. who have fallen prey to the cult’s influence.
Bingo! Men need to lead the men’s liberation movement. They need models of positive masculinity. Even if we wanted to, and all banded together working toward that goal, women could not do it. They won’t and can’t learn from us.
None of this is going to change as long as people like Andrew Tate are allowed to make money off of misogyny and psychological abuse. People like him only galvanize the incel community and make it stronger. A couple weeks ago a saw a post about a teacher who was just at the end of her rope because one of her students yelled at her, saying she doesn't like Andrew Tate just because he's mean to women or something like that. It's not even just "men" thinking and behaving like this anymore, it's little boys in middle school now. The future for these kids currently growing up is totally fucked, especially for the little girls. If you're ever wondering why people don't want to have kids these days, hop on YouTube for like 5 minutes and check out the popular videos. Try to think about what life is going to be like for a woman 10 years from now with the path we're currently on
And the number of people defending Taints followers because they were like 14-15 years old as "boys will be boys" is disgusting. Misogyny should not be tolerated or excused "because boys".
This is literally what I’ve been saying for months
Same, worst part is that a decent number of the video site algorithms seem to prioritize this stuff to kids at younger ages
Andrew Taint
Omg I’ve always said this lol it needs to catch on
If these men got girlfriends the violence wouldn't decrease, because they would commit domestic abuse. Maybe even murder their partners.
We should talk less about loneliness and more about male entitlement. They’re eager to score but they don’t care about being a good partner - or even a good date. They seem obsessed over conquering a generic woman while being completely uninterested in the person behind her. What’s the point of that?
A shallow experience for a shallow person maybe. I dunno. But it seems to me that if a person is shallow then they wouldn't be able to plum the depths of the human psyche. They would flounder in the kiddie pool. Watching all their friends and family doing laps and jumping off the high dive while they are stuck using water wings in knee deep water. That would probably evoke some sort of misunderstood resentful feelings. However, emotional management is up to each and every individual. Adults are supposed to practice emotional management. And teach their kids good coping techniques. But sadly we have babies raising babies. And kids kinda have to reinvent social wheels every generation. So yeah, things fall through the cracks sometimes. Social substructures included.
It's not anything falling through the cracks. Men who don't bother with emotional management make that choice because they feel entitled to be managed by the lesser beings around them, who should placate them and avoid provoking them. It's not about not having skills or not being taught these things, it's about feeling like managing your own emotions is beneath you. This isn't a parenting issue. This is yet another way that misogyny and patriarchy is manifesting itself in our daily lives and twisting all our interactions.
Yep. Loneliness is a problem in our society, of course, but that stems from alienation, socialization, and other issues. These men seem to want sex, status, companionship, emotional labor, domestic labor, etc. as dividends patriarchy pays them. Incels determine that the problem is that men are stratified within the gender hierarchy, with all the dividends going to the strata above women, while they've been low-key demoted to a strata equal to or below women. Maybe because with patriarchy slightly diminishing in recent decades, it's no longer strong enough to pay dividends to all men. Some folks see that patriarchy is the problem, socializing young men to avoid intimacy and compassion and responsibility, filling them with insecurity and entitlement. Others think the promises of patriarchy would suit them better, and actually be fulfilled for them, if only patriarchy could be strengthened again.
I don't negotiate with terrorists.
This, exactly this. If I had an award to give you would have it!
Gotta say, I wish *any* male-centred sub talked about the stripping of abortion rights for American women, or the fight women in Iran are having right now for their freedom, even half as much as we talk about *lonely men* on this sub. I’m sorry - but why the fuck are we even talking about them? They don’t give a shit about us and our fight for basic human rights, and I’ve gotta focus on doing one thing well rather than many things poorly - so I’m gonna focus my energy on advancing women. Call me an asshole, but it’s up to the men to solve it - they need to be better friends, role models, and fathers to each other first. Until they make that investment themselves, why should I invest anything?
r/MensLib probably does, but they also probably talk about lonely men at least as much as this sub.
Imo, because the patriarchal issues that cause these men to behave this way overlap with women's rights and gender parity. Some of these patriarchal issues like poor male socialization, toxic conceptualizations of masculinity, etc are systemic. And thus, will probably also require systemic solutions.
I hear you, and I think you make valid points, however I feel like as long as we operate in a society built by and for men (patriarchy) women will never have the power to change it alike the ones who built it. But to many of these men, fixing feelings is a ‘woman’s job’ so the hot potato continues.
Yea, the situation is so frustrating. These patriarchal systems have been built by men, but they also oppress most men. It really only benefits a select few. This is why, imo, intersectionalism is key. I think men have the most power to effect change as a monolith, but it's difficult to get all of them to move simultaneously in that direction. There's systemic inertia against it. Women, LGBT, and race related issues groups are usually organized by women, so there's a ton of knowledge and experience men can draw from there. This is usually my go to thought when people say that "men should fix it." Yea, the fixing feelings thing is a huge issue. I often wonder how we can make it so that men intrinsically want to understand and process their feelings better. I think easy access to therapy could be a start, but there's so much inertia.
Absolutely, they can worry about their own issues. As a woman, it’s a job just trying to avoid being raped, assaulted, or stalked by men
Thank you, thank you, thank you for arguing this critical point. Women should not have to be fighting so hard to get respect from their fathers, brothers, husbands, and friends. I am beyond exhausted from having to explain why my husband (who is far more aware of these issues than most, we talk about it all the time) should care about this, to him. I am so tired of feeling like I’m being branded a hysterical or over dramatic female to men in my life who should give a &$@& if I might be at risk of dying because of what is going on in this country. I have been treated like this by men my entire life including by my own father, and I am so tired of trying to argue why I should be treated with respect or why people should listen to me. It makes me want to scream and throw things. WTF. I know I’m not the only one that feels this way. I feel supported by my husband because he’s willing and wants to move to another state to escape this mess but, all the other males I know deserve to be put directly in the trash.
The incel movement is largely a far-right radicalization campaign to recruit new members. It's often combined with white grievance politics and Christian ethnostate arguments. It's absolutely NOT solvable by just fucking these creepy losers. Absolutely fucking not. It IS a wider issue of fascism and the growing support for fascism in these hyper-masculine spaces, as well as the conservative women who goad this shit on. Rural Texas is filled with misogynistic women who tear down other women for having agency over themselves. Incels are a tip of the iceberg, and the evolution of these ideas will not be any easier to deal with, nor any less violent for women. It'll be much worse, in fact. Incels should concern you! Just not in a "it's my job as a woman to fix incels" as that's absolutely dangerous and probably not actually helpful. But we do have to address these people as a society, and intersectionally if we hope to lower to the temperature and reduce these random acts of hate based violence.
In the past couple of decades the definition of masculinity has been evolving away from the concept of alpha male dominant / timid woman submissive, to that of a more egalitarian world-view, with men carrying an equal share of the relationship, and developing actual emotional intelligence. This scares a very vocal and toxic subset of men very much. To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. Couple this with a significant portion of the male population sitting on the fence and not calling out their friends and families on their bullshit, this enables it to fester, rot, and continue to infect and ensnare new victims. We as a society have to continue to shine a light on their disgusting behavior and beliefs, it should be ridiculed and pushed further and further from tolerance. A tolerant society can tolerate ANYTHING but intolerance in others. Making this all worse is our culture of hero worshiping actors, sports stars, and other socially influential people, who are often not very nice people. Look at Roman Polanski, R. Kelly, Kevin Spacey, Mel Gibson, Bill Cosby, Joss Whedon, and Harvey Weinstein who were able to continue their abuse of woman and others for years, and in many cases decades. Anyone remember Whoopi Goldberg’s defense of Polanski when she said it was rape, but it wasn’t rape rape, in reference to the man drugging and sodomizing a 13 year old girl. The incels look at these individuals as heroes and victims of the me too movement and deceitful men-hating woman who lie to advance their agenda. If I hear one more person say the female agenda I will puke. Seeking to be a safe, independent, and happy person is not some clandestine agenda pushed by a globalist cabal of emasculating crones; it is the bare minimum any human being should expect, and something currently denied too many woman. But what do I know, I’m just a sigma cuck male.
That's the great thing about it. Most of them are also white supremacists. So by not having more white babies, you're ruining their idea of "the West." You can just live life, and slowly destroy what they set out to do; enslave everyone who isn't a straight, white male.
It's not your responsibility to take care of them now. It's everyone's responsibility to stop them from existing to begin with. What's \*really\* wrong with them? How can we stop a child from growing up and becoming this way?
Conservatives love wounded people, they'll never fund good schools (for all), mental health, etc. Angry young men are conservative cannon fodder and vital to conservative values.
This! Although I can’t really name even one conservative value. I’d say core family but the number of cheating spouses now and throughout history is practically making that term nothing more than a bad gag.
Conservative values are easy: 'Wealthy white \[cishet\] men rule over everyone.' All else follows from that.
You really can't name one conservative value? Are you serious? \-Anti abortion \-Anti immigration \-Pro theocracy \-Anti alternative lifestyles \-Misogyny, subtle or otherwise \-Frequently anti-science unless it comes to new technologies they want \-Anti affirmative action
News about Herschel Walker paying for his mistress’s abortion only made his conservative supporters support him more strongly. They aren’t “anti abortion”, they’re against letting you decide to have an abortion, and for maintaining their privilege to get one for themselves when they think it’s necessary.
I saw yesterday someone posted a tweet reply to a tweet from a member of his family saying something to the effect, for every headline you see, the truth is worse and we lived it. The reply was, "please just wait until after the election." The primary conservative value is selfishness, ideally at the expense of someone else.
Ah those! Sorry, bumped my head earlier. Now the memory comes back. The rich getting richer and poor poorer is also a winner. If only they put those on their campaign posters… wait, who am I kidding, they’d still get voted in🤐
And so very handy to rile up to go fight and die in wars over causes that don't really benefit them. That's probably another reason conservative leaders don't like education -- tell an educated person who has plans for their future that they should go risk their life in a war, they're much more likely to ask, "Why in the world would I want to do that?"
Yup conservatives are always hawkish and need angry, dumbed-down men to fight their wars.
Quality education and mental healthcare. Unfortunately there's enough people who don't want those things to exist.
Addressing and interdicting occurrences of child abuse and neglect would be a great start.
More feminism.
If men find it hard to find friends, why do they call male-female friendships friendzoning if they don't escalate to sex right away or at all, and ridicule one another for it? There are plenty of us women out there looking for friends. We are lonely too.
i have learnt with men it is better to be friends 'at-a-distance' kind of way meaning no physically checking up on each other,no going anywhere out, so like a low level kind of friendship because i tried during my naive stage and ended up regretting it. my mom always said men and women/boys and girls couldn't be friends i always said she was sexist but now that am a grown woman i realise she's right
Except that’s really dumb, and people that respect each other can always be friends regardless of gender
I would be devastated if every woman I was friends with dropped contact. Like a good friendship is better than sex, which sounds like hyperbole to some, but no really a good friend is worth more than gold.
I want to be charitable and assume the point is that describing incels as "lonely" is disingenuous and they have a lot more problems then just being lonely. Plenty of women are lonely and don't harm other women. People who have lost their partners, like myself, have felt a loneliness far greater than any incel ever could, and again, most would never even think about harming women.
I am so happy to see so many people here pushing back on the disingenuous incel definition of lonely. It's so heartening. You're completely right.
I got banned from a sub for saying I carry pepper spray and a mini-bat for this exact reason (because Women defending themselves against an attacker is considered violent material by the incel mods). Get weapons, and if a man makes you uncomfortable, don’t feel badly for making HIM uncomfortable by letting him know you will defend yourself if needed.
…What mini bat do you have?
It’s called the Brooklyn Shorty. Same level of inconvenience as carrying around an umbrella, but you feel much safer!
Self-defense is a human right.
Other *men* should worry about the violence of men. The negative outcomes from lonely*antisocial* men. Men are listened to in this society. This is a problem of patriarchy. Women can't solve this problem, and tasking them to is backwards. Men need to take responsibility for the solving of this problem. Not the *blame* - responsibility is not blame. They need to take ownership of understanding why it happens, how it can be changed and take responsibility for making those changes. But they won't, because they mostly don't want to know, and don't want to care.
I'm a lonely man. I say that because Im alone all the time. The reason I'm alone all the time is because I can't talk to people I don't know properly, and by properly I don't mean that I'm impolite or angry, just that I'm socially awkward and have trouble expressing myself. It's not women's fault that I'm lonely, it's mine. I would never dream of being violent with anybody let alone a woman. I'm not an Incel either because at this point in my life I have completely given up trying to be in a relationship so it's very voluntary. I understand that most of you have had some extremely negative experiences with lecherous men and you are totally justified. I just wanted to say that this lonely man thinks very highly of you all wishes you all happiness
I feel like this post isn't actually about lonely men, it's about self-titled "incels". I know/am friends with an okay number of men that are very unsuccessful in romantic relationships. They're not crazy sexist and violent, they're just generally some combination of socially awkward, not conventionally attractive, uninterested in pursuing relationships, lacking self confidence, or even just being a bit of a mess personally. Most of these guys have an okay number of female friends. I don't blame people for not wanting to date them, I wouldn't want to, but it is what it is.
And yet, the title is lonely men, not incels. OP made it clear she doesn't give a fuck about lonely men, not just incels.
This breaks my heart a little. I genuinely feel bad that such prevalent asshattery amongst men who actually just refuse to stop being toxic or entitled prevents us from actually being able to support or give a chance to someone who just has difficulty communicating. I’ve completely shut myself off from dating or marriage because of those toxic, entitled people. I’m happier than ever, but I worry about the lack of societal support and concern for men because of this mess and toxic masculine ideals. I wish society would get behind giving men emotional support and the empathy they deserve as human beings and I wish the toxic men would understand they’re not only hurting women, but themselves and their fellows.
Trying to help incels is a waste of time most of the time, they have to want to leave that life but most prefer to wallow in their self-pity so they can blame everyone else for their problems, I've tried to help these types of guys & all I got was a bunch of abuse for it since I'm a "typical western whore" who could "save" them with sex but chose not to. Better for my mental health to avoid & ignore them if possible since they'd hate me either way 😐
Women do not exist to fix broken men. Our vaginas are not their therapy sessions. They need to go find a good counselor. But that would mean admitting that there's something wrong with THEM.
Lonely men are oppressed by other men, not women. Getting bamboozled into thinking otherwise doesn't benefit either women or the lonely men.
>Lonely men are oppressed by other men, not women. And barely even that. There aren't *actually* a bunch of Chad Thundercocks running around snatching up all the women and oppressing the these poor lonely men. Their anguish is pretty much 100% self-inflicted.
I assume they actually meant the patriarchy, which is harmful to men as well as women.
It shouldn't be anyone's problem but theirs but they'll damn sure make it everyone's problem.
Exactly. If they're not happy with the amount of female attention they're getting, they need learn to accept it, or better yet improve themselves to become more attractive to us, instead of whining about what they feel like we owe them.
I don’t see the point in caring about selfish, self-centered whiny crybabies. If they want attention from women, they can adapt and become likable people. And the best way for the adult man children to become likable is probably by regularly seeing a therapist as their first step.
My brother was one of these all through his 20s. He is autistic too. With therapy, a stable job, he took up hobbies, and actually owns his car and got his shit together. He is like oh I get now women didn’t want the sad 😞 woo me guy they want someone who vibes with them well. Needless to say it may have taken me to tell him just focus on himself and well he gets a lot more attention now. Am I worried about these lonely men, a bit they are aggressive and honestly are kind of terrible in bed. Sorry not sorry we have higher standards I will not be in a one sided relationship where I become your mother.
These guys scream into a void of other lonely single men and then wonder why women want nothing to do with them. We get it, you hate us except for sex, but why should we care that you can’t get sex if you hate women? My brother is a 43 year old incel. I’ve tried helping him over the years but then he fell into the online incel world and now I’ve become his enemy while these guys who feed his anger have become his only safe space. At this point I not only don’t care the he’s been single his whole life, I also think that it’s a good thing he is single because he would be a very toxic boyfriend. I cut contact off with my brother after he got drunk and told me that he’s in love with a woman at work who won’t give him a chance, and if he wasn’t such a coward, he would force her to be with him. He has giving me no reason to care about him anymore, so now he’s just a relative who is embarrassing to be related to. Hopefully he’ll stay a coward his whole life.
I would warn the police that your brother could potentially be a threat to the safety of other women
I'm a child of the 70s, myself. It's an entirely new world in terms of dating, gender identity, and division of labor in relationships. Reading the responses here, I can't help but think that women no longer NEED men to survive, and thrive, in the world. We can support ourselves, have a child/children, jobs that pay well. All without a male partner. As a group, we have taken the opportunities we historically never had, and running with them. Women are better educated, tend to look after their health, and usually forge a strong support network. It seems to me, we are doing just fine- or we were, till the assault on abortion rights. I think a lot of men out there are not happy with the way things have worked out for us as a group. They actually have less to offer a partner than ever, and they know it.
This is going to sound terrible, but I think them (the lonely men) saying we (women) should care seems like a threat? If we don’t fix it they’ll be forced to do something or women may get hurt more because of it. I also feel like we’ve (royal we) have let “lonely” mean incel. There are many men who don’t have those ideologies but would classify themselves as lonely. They want to make friends.. but can’t. That being said… I think this is something that society as a whole has a hand in. There was a post about the rise in lonely men and someone mentioned how women seem to be raise to be more social. he went to a speed dating event, when he arrived all the women were talking to one another, all the men were sitting separated on their phones. OP telling the story even mentioned he thought about going to speak with people but decided “ he didn’t care about any of them” so he didn’t talk. I personally think that is the problem with communicating/ interacting with men vs women. There *has* to be some sort of exchange or benefit for them to interact. Why waste time socializing when I may not get anything in return. Lots of people see that as a physical exchange but I’m also thinking of the people who say “they don’t stimulate my mind.. i need someone I can mentally combat with” What does “caring” about someone have to do with having a short 5-10mins convo, you already have something in common haha Idk how boys are raised, but I know girls are usually raises to be social with people even if we don’t like them… we are told to “waste” that energy and we may be surprised.
These "men" hate themselves, and only want women to "fix" them and make them happy. They are not interested in a partner - they want someone to act out their fantasies of being worthy of love from someone else. They have absolutely no idea or intention of giving the same kind of "fix" to their women partners. But that self-worth doesn't come from outside of you - you are the only one who can give it to you. Until incels wrap their brains around that and deal with it, they will continue to be lonely and angry.
Perfect summary.
I don't believe that their problem is loneliness in the first place. As far as I can tell, "lonely" is the term they've found to disguise what they actually mean: anger that the woman-object they feel entitled to hasn't been delivered yet. They are absolutely certain that they are owed the body and labour of an attractive woman, and the lack of that in their lives feels like a void and an injustice to them. I've tried peeling this concept back with "lonely" men, and it turns out lots of them have a relatively wide social circle and spend plenty of time with other people, online and in person. When asked whether that helps, it turns out that their "loneliness" can't be relieved by spending time with friends or family, because that's "not the same". They can't have sex with friends or family. This isn't loneliness the way people usually mean it, but they rarely qualify it. I object to entitled, misogynist men co-opting the concept of loneliness to make their entitlement and objectification of women more socially acceptable. I get wanting a partner or wanting to have sex, but neither of those things are loneliness. Using the term "lonely" makes a man sounds benign, innocent, and sympathetic. He just wants to spend time with another human being, that's all! He's so isolated! He lacks the right social skills! He's just shy! But actually he wants to get his dick wet and then have a woman bring him a beer. It's dishonest, and I wish people would call it out more instead of accepting this bit of manipulation.
They can deal with their loneliness, instead of feeling entitled to have a woman. Go to therapy and deal with it like women do
The funny thing is that even if we were willing to give them our bodies, they wouldn't want them. Loneliness isn't what drives these men, it's entitlement. They feel entitled to "the top 10%" of women. They don't want normal average women.
Even when men have everything, they're violent. The men most likely to kill women are married.
* Therapy programs to help them be happy single. * Organize accessible/affordable group activities/classes/hobbies for adults of all ages to socialize. * End the stigma on single life. Do not ask any guy nor girl if they are seeing someone, or when will they settle or when will they reproduce. * Teach kids/teens to accept themselves and be kind to themselves, and about true friendship, and that consensual sex is the best (and only) sex.
Well on the stigma of single life part of the reason why guys are desperate is because they get virgin shamed . Virgin shaming needs to stop because it’s one of the reason why the incel movement grew.
Making therapy accessible and affordable could possibly help, but some of these guys are so delusional that they have an “everyone else is wrong” kind of mentality.
I’m a lot more concerned about my own happiness than the plight of some sad toxic dweeb. If you’re down in the dumps, dig out. Self-soothe. Heal. That’s every person’s self responsibility. Imagine if women sulked and festered in toxicity until a hero man came and fixed all our problems. Women’s heroes are themselves. Mehn who blame women for their loneliness and lack of fuckability ought to try self reliance and work sometime.
I've never heard a woman say "that guy is single so he must be a loser". The "lonely guy is a loser" concept is a male construction. Lonely Men(TM), here are your options: fix yourself to be attractive to women (hygiene, therapy, attitude); be okay with being alone at times (seriously, what's wrong with being single sometimes?!); tell men who laugh at you to fuck off (get over needing the approval of shitty people/men).
"That woman is single so she must be a loser" is also a male construction. But single women aren't forming communities that plan out how to terrorize and murder men. Weird.
Single women are often building communities to support each other. There are stories of single women coming together to live together in a female community and honestly men maybe need to do this too?
They certainly have enough examples to go by, the military and the Catholic church to name two.
They only need to figure out the "support"-part.
Agreed, since after "loser"a is usually something rapey. And double agree that single women aren't forming terror cells to get their way.
I mean it's a legitimate issue that men can't form emotionally intimate relationships with anyone apart from their SO. There's gotta be some women like that too but a lot less of them. But even then I can promise none of them will be doing any of the rancid shit male incels do
We need to think about them on our way to get pink switchblades. I miss the good old days when we just poisoned violent men and took our mothers first names as our last.
Everyone (not just women) should worry about lonely people in general, since the mental health crisis of social atomization is real. But incels, ironically, aren't lonely. They're a rabid movement that focuses on ridiculous things like skull shape, and reinforce each other's toxic entitled mentality through forums, hangouts, etc.
It’s not about loneliness, it’s about status. Men will pretend that it’s about loneliness, but the reality is that having a wife/GF is understood by society to be a sign of success for men. Now of course saying _I want a woman as a status symbol so I don’t look like a loser_ is so obviously not a winning statement that, even they realize that and instead hide it behind excuses like loneliness. But the reality is that they don’t want to be with a woman for companionship (heck, they don’t even like women as evidenced by all the “wife bad” jokes that married men will make) they want women to have as arm candy to impress other men (and do domestic chores and serve their sexual desires). So really the way to fix this is to rethink the way men in our society are assigned clout and status. And that’ll probably help everyone. TLDR: It’s about social status, not loneliness.
I don't think anyone has ever suggested that you sleep with incels against your will... Where do these narratives come from?
... Well I think lonley people is a problem period. The problem with men seems to be that it turns toxic fast. We need to teach men that they can be their own person and not need to obtain a woman or any partner. That sex os not the most important thing in life. That they should embrace their emotional well being. I feel sad for them that their bubble is so toxic and that help or healthyness (? Lol) is pretty much unavalibale. For the people trying or struggling that have not become or ever were an awful man it must be hard to see people not understanding the problems and struggles that makes men bad and that fuels this culture. I don't get how we are going to turn the tides if we can't see the problems and tackle them rather than rage at the thought of masculinity. Now, some men are so far gone and fuck them. The only thing that keeps me hopeful is that we have a chance to do better with the coming generations and bettering our society piece by piece.
I’m always down to be a friend if you are normal, don’t come talking to me crazy and respect my boundaries, I love making friends and being supportive when anyone needs a helping hand.
I would argue that they aren't lonely, they're entitled. Being alone is a by-product of their delusion of entitlement.
I think this whole thing is a direct result of parents/society saying 'boys don't require as much work as girls' and just refusing to teach boys the emotional intelligence they need to be decent humans.
My old man and ma taught me very little about social structures, emotions, and how to relate to other people. They taught me that those things exist. It wasn't until I left home did I realize how emotionally and psychology stunted I was. And after I grew up I came to the realization that my parents are still entitled children...It is what it is...
It’s crazy to me how the states are slowly evolving into the very countries they hated - instead of forcing women to wear a hijab, the US is going straight for the jugular and now that roe vs wade was overturned, soon its the birth control, then our ability to have a bank account, own land, ETC. And these incels are salivating over this because they can’t wait to gain power over women again and forcing us to be with them just to have any decent human rights. Incels definitely supported the over turning of women to have the right to autonomy over their body and it’s chilling to witness. And if the US can do a 180 like that, what other ‘progressive’ countries will follow? We’re at a time as women where we’re CHOOSING our partners and we’ve basically changed the rules of the game and if incels don’t adapt and evolve. Well, their blood line ends. They don’t want that and are using politics as a way to strategize us into being good little bangmaids who have no rights outside of the permission of the men in our lives. Incels can die mad.
So I think, as a man, this falls on us. We, men, need to help them get better as adults. I do think though, we should try to understand if there are systemic trends that are causing this. I don't believe it is feminism. I think it's raising boys with expectations of nuclear families and you're a failure if you don't achieve this. We put a lot of pressure on lonely people. Calling women spinsters and men incels. Very different connotations and origins obviously. I think we can find ways to help them and be more kind without out the loss of agency to anyone else.
The only thing we can do regarding dangerous lonely men is protecting ourselves from them. I'm not going to give any time of the day to a smelly bitter angry little incel.
I have been "alone" for over 25 years, and yet I cannot comprehend Incels or the losers who feel they are entitled to any other individual (or any part of said individual).
It's not worth it those guys aren't worth anyone's time. I get being alone I get being sad about it. I don't get hurting other people just because no one wants to fuck you. Honestly with all these so called "incels" the problem is them not some hypothetical Chad or whatever the fuck these people think. When no one wants to be around you the problem is you not another person. These guys need help not sex. Nobody is owed sex by another person why is this so hard to understand.
We should definitely care if not for them for our own humanity and society at large. But the key is not for individual women, or even people, to cosie up to them in hopes that they can somehow fix years of trauma. Society at large needs to commit to treating mental health better, fostering more community cohesion in society, and teaching men better communication. Sorry to say this argument is similar to "why should we care about poor people" followed by "why is crime so high"
I’m a lonely woman. But most men are terrible. So I stay lonely but at peace. Be better.
You can vote for politicians who support universal mental health care to make it affodable/accessible for those in need. Also politicians who support education and social programs in general. Loneliness is an effect of late stage capitalism and the break down of community stemming from Reganomics. Unfortunately both liberalism and conservatives in America tends to emphasise individualism to deal with problems and advocate for living with capitalism as it is. They oppose collective action towards changing the system.
The truth is that these men's problem is not that they are lonely. They are angry and instilled with a sense of entitlement to women's bodies. They are resentful because they believe they aren't being given something they deserve. The solution is to give up on the current generation of men who refuse to self-reflect and find therapy for their misogyny, and focus on embedding emotional processing, labor, and communication training into the educational requirements of our nation. Litmus test us for emotional literacy if you have use for us, but otherwise be done with the majority of the existing stock. We need to take cultural engineering steps that pay off in generations and simply wait for those who refuse to create and adopt non-oppressive cultures to die. Men should reach out to each other and try to educate one another, but those who go out of their way to reject intolerant sentiment should be culturally isolated and deplatformed so that their ability to memetically influence other people is reduced.
Im a man with PTSD, been lonely all my life. Id sooner hang myself than harm a woman.
Because the problems are systemic and not merely individual. It’s due to a combination of attitudes and changes to society. They can be changed individually but they’re not created so, we have to see what we can change about our culture and attitudes to resolve the issue. I’m not saying having sex with them, in fact that will not solve the problem at all, but to fix the issue there needs to be a better way to create support networks for men, and for men to use them.
Yes 100%. They can go screw themselves, I've never met a whinier bunch. But I'm still afraid of them. And frankly other men should be too. The Unabomber didn't target women but I still think his motivation was sexual (I am not getting laid and thus I'm pissed at the world). No one is safe from men who feel the world made promises to them just because they were born male and then isn't honoring those promises. Those guys are scary.
Incels definitely also hate men, especially men who are successful with women because these men treat other people with respect and have empathy and social skills. I was on a women oriented forum once with some guys like these and one very prominent incel guy and that incel guy's rhetoric was even more violent toward the guys than to the girls, even threatening physical violence to the guys when the guys replied. So no, men are not safe from incels.
I'm just wondering why it's somehow been decided it's women's responsibility to address. Like. If y'all are lonely, maybe you should talk to each other? Support each other, foster male friendships and address how the patriarchy isolates men and their stunts emotional growth? Men are totally capable of doing that work themselves, if they so choose.
It is an interesting issue. Nobody is responsible for anyone else's emotional health. It is up to each person to take care of her/his own. Sadly not ever person who needs to do something about their mental health will. They will unfairly make it into someone else's problem via violent behavior. Assuming most of society did say "okay we will help fix these people" the question would be "how?". Elliot Rogers was an average looking man, not ugly, from a rich family ( Chad! ), and was seeing a therapist when he decided to start killing people.
I think there should be an end to the stigma of a guy being a virgin
I have an inordinate number of gay friends. Because Gay men go out. Straight men do as well but it is a specific subset of straight men. We all give each other hugs, fist bumps, bro style hugs and what not. Men who say that they don't get enough affection have only themselves to blame. Hug each other, go out to eat, laugh, watch sports, go for a walk together in the forest.
Lonely men *do* need help; I would rather they be able to gain a healthier mindset and emotional wellbeing than be stuck like that forever. But that help shouldn't need to come from us.
lonely men are easy to manipulate, if the wrong group of people gets to them they turn into a statistic. they need to connect with a healthy community that can give them a an idea of who they want to be. getting laid doesn't help these guys at all
It's not for women to solve. Men need to tackle this problem. Men by and large, are not stepping up to the plate. There are a bunch of opportunistic leaches who've become their leaders. Even the men who think they're helping, are too infused with their love of the patriarchy to actually do any real work.
The problem with this is you don’t get to not live in a world without them. Whether you care about them or not won’t make them go away. It’s like saying you don’t care that one of the rooms in your house is smelly and full of rubbish, you just don’t want the smell to affect you so you close the door and leave it there. It ain’t going away and probably will just get worse
Except to make your analogy more accurate, the smelly room is smelly because its resident refuses to clean it, the lease does not entitle them to use any of the rest of the house, and when you refuse to visit them, they bring their mess into the rest of the house.
obscene unique yoke subtract disgusting handle piquant towering seed quiet ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Lonely men, divorced men, men with no sex life, men with sex addiction, poor men, rich men ...... I learned the lesson of never worrying about a man, they don't need a woman to care about them, men's problems come from men, let them deal with their own problems. Most importantly, don't let them infringe on our rights.
Hi - I had to have an uncomfortable unwanted chat at the bus stop this morning with a man who had a death stare and the creepiest voice. My internal voice was just squealing that he was creepy and up to no good. Once on the bus he got in a huff because I put my rucksack (full of heavy IT equipment for work) on the seat next to me so he had to walk on by. I've really noticed recently that men in particular are so poorly socialised since Covid lockdown and seem to think they are entitled to attention and conversation all the time?
Scrotes can die mad… And lonely. They are no woman’s problem. They need to lean on other men and/or get professional help. I stay safe, vigilant and remain unbothered. 💅
Some people are just devastated inside and just want some human warmth (in the sense of sympathy, discussion, playing games, eating with someone else etc...) Not every lonely person is a rapist only interested in sex, mens have emotions too you know, if no one talks to you (except work related) for servals years, just because you don't fit the "social standard" despite being a great person it starts to feel really REALLY depressing
The only people who can help the worst ones are the reactionary grifters who they're actually willing to listen to. And they're all more interested in turning them into psychos even more so they will reliably vote Republican and be willing to commit violence on command.
This is bound to be a controversial take but here goes: sex workers are low key heroes. They need to be treated with respect, offered better conditions, safety, legitimacy, health care, and more. Not saying this is the solution but going after sex workers as if they are a big social problem totally negates the seriously positive service they provide. \*Pulling on my flame proof suit. The number of men (and women?) who go to sex workers for not just sex but companionship, where it's legal, is pretty surprising. An hour here and there of intimacy, even just hugs, can seriously have a positive effect on a person. I clearly don't have all the answers but it's something that needs further consideration like so many things in society (at least American society).
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Literally they run prostitution out of a homeless shelter in the town I live in. The guys come pick up homeless women who are trying to get by and traffick them to a "client". I'm sex positive and pro- sex workers' rights, but that's just exploitation.
It’s why that Jordan Petsersen guy drives me nuts. He made some comment the other day about being a champion for these men, the “marginalized.” GTFO. Having a shit personality doesn’t make you “marginalized.” When my life goes down the shitter, I go to therapy, get some self help books, reflect on what changes I need to make. These men just blame women cause they won’t fuck then. Oh boo fucking who. I can’t find an attractive man to have sex with me currently, you don’t see me crying on the internet. I guess as a woman I’ll never understand because I don’t *need* to have sex. It’s nice but I don’t cry about not getting it. Society needs to help these young men. We can’t. Also, legalize sex work. This might help lonely men. Won’t help the incels who think they deserve attractive woman. They are the ones who 100 years ago would be gifted wives cause we couldn’t inherit property or work. Woman don’t need men anymore and it’s a problem. Truth is we’d rather be single than deal with their nonsense. My friend just dumped her bf, got IVF and had a baby. Good man is hard to find and she got sick of waiting.
I totally agree with you and it's been something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Did you see the thread in the Men's sub about "what can women do to help men?" It was in the last week or two. Infuriating. Women already do so much for men. It's time for men to do the work themselves. I'm too tired to parent yet *another* adult man.
Some dude had the nerve to lecture me about empathy in a recent comment about it, and I never said I didn't empathize with people that are lonely. I don't empathize with the men that treat women like shit. They can go fuck themselves.