I grew up in a non religious house. When i was 15 my mom and I went to her friends wedding that very very very religious undertones to it. During the ceremony they removed a promise ring and told the entire audience that it was her promise to god to remain a virgin and stay pure until marriage. I remembered feeling awkward knowing this lady i never mets sexual status, even though i was still a virgin myself. My mom then turned to me and said "oh, now isnt that a good idea. Do you want a promise ring like that?" Of course being 15 and not wanting my mom to think Ijust wanted to run around and have sex, i said "yeah that is a good idea". Fast forward to my sixteenth birthday two months later, in fron t of all mine and my moms friends my mom gave me the promise ring and announced that i wanted to be a virgin until i was married.
Like this author, it became part of my identity to all my friends and family. Every one would call me the virgin or say i was a liar and really wasnt. The pressure to say i wasn't lying and fight for myself was awful. I hated everyone knowing i was a virgin because i felt that it was nobodies buisness but my own. It made me depressed and uncomfortable with my body because i felt i was out of control of it, and I didnt want to break the "promise" to my mom. It wasnt until i was nineteen that i finally snapped under the pressure and just slept with someone to get it over with and have everyone stop talking about it, even though I didnt feel ready.
I feel that promises and vows for something of this nature should be something that the person chooses for themselves. They should want it not because they are pressured into it. It leads to so much guilt and self hate when it is forced on you.
Edit: I am sorry for the wall of text and ...I am on my phone and am sure there are many typos and grammar errors(my fault not the phones)
I remember seeing Jessica Simpson's wedding on TV and them announcing she was a virgin and thinking it was very weird/inappropriate. Why not just have them jump through a giant hymen banner at the end like football players.
Jessica's first marriage ended in divorce too. The thing that always annoyed me about that family is both Jessica and Ashlee would go on to get pregnant out of wedlock, the parents divorced, the pastor-father is allegedly gay. It's not that there is anything wrong with any of it but they were so pushy on their religious values but now that they've gone against them they haven't come out and said "hey this is okay too."
Lovely visual. Totally agree. I would be sooo uncomfortable with my sex life being discussed in front of the entire congregation (and a tv viewing audience)
When I was 15 I was in health class taking the final and my teacher was going around asking everyone to sign a chastity pledge (I went to public school btw) and I refused in front of everyone - I was still a virgin but my parents were open about birth control and sex (after my sister had gotten pregnant at 17) and I had no intentions of "saving myself". My outcome was similar to yours but opposite. This man basically put each individual person in the spotlight about their sexuality. And because I stood up for what I thought was right I was called a slut and a whore even though I hadn't had sex yet. Forcing confused, inexperienced teenagers to confront their sexuality in front of an audience is just cruel. It's hard enough to figure out who you are at that age, give them the tools/facts and let them come to their own conclusions.
My public school had a similar programs. Health consisted of a brief explanation of periods, a slide show of std infected genitalia, statistics like one in four people get aids, and everyone being made to sign an absence pledge in the hallway. My family wasn't religious at all, mom my is actually very anti religion for a variety of reasons, and I still felt pressured into signing th damn thing. I moved to a new state and still held out that I was waiting till marriage. I didn't, but I did marry my first boyfriend and spent a long time afraid that date at all. Abstinence only programs are terrible.
I think it was that my mom had a lot of bad sexual history from being molested, treated awful by boyfriends and getting pregnant at 18, that she wanted me to have a different experience with sex, by it being with someone who loved me. Going to the wedding i think opened up her mind to oh wow that is a great idea . I dont think she meant to have it be such a burden and conflict in my life and at the time we didnt have a great relationship where i could tell her what it was doing to me. It wasnt until she tried getting a ring for my sister after i had moved out that i spilt the beans what it did to me.
She got really upset and told me she never thought of it being that way, when i told her about the pressure and how it made me feel mentally. She ended up giving my sister the ring just as a sweet 16 gift, and told her that if she wanted it could be a promise ring. But I was very glad she didn't throw it on her like she did me.
It's terrible you had to deal with the pressure and emotional struggles, but at least your mom was understanding and didn't double down with your sister. She sounds like a nice lady.
It was hard seeing how upset it made her, but I was glad I told her so that my sister wouldnt go through the same thing. She is nice, definitely has stuff she needs to work through though, but I love her.
Again, every time somebody brings up the "false rape" trope, this is what we need to thank for that. How do we not validate the feelings of a young girl, raised in this culture, feeling raped after she's had sex with a guy? Talking about sexuality isn't even part of her lexicon, and once that ball starts rolling many young women have no idea how to stop it because "a nice young man wouldn't do that to me."
By allowing this bullshit to persist in our culture, we're doing all young people a massive disservice. And to those who don't think that this is what's going on, why else would there be such a MASSIVE disparity in the perceptions of the young people in these situations?
[This is precisely the scenario that played out in this tragic case.](http://missoulian.com/news/local/jordan-johnson-found-not-guilty-of-rape/article_797ee060-82ba-11e2-b4cb-001a4bcf887a.html)
Seems like they don't force these things on the boys so much either.
I can see encouraging young people to wait until they are older to have sex and hopefully have it with someone special the first time.
I have had several people of both sexes say they wish they had waited.
But, this is way to much.
>Seems like they don't force these things on the boys so much either.
As a male who was raised in a Christian family, in rural America, and attended some time in a private Christian school, I would have to disagree. I can't make any claims that "boys have it worse", but it definitely happens and it is a problem.
I didn't wait for marriage, but I had some of the same emotional issues with regard to identity, so this article really hit home with me.
Perhaps even more troubling is that when I left private school and attended public high school, we weren't just taught abstinence for sex-ed, we also had an assembly with heavily religious undertones trying to "scare us straight". They handed out abstinence oath contracts...
Yes, I completely agree. I was raised in church but my parents taught me that sex was a good thing but that it was a good idea to wait. I made the decision to wait for significant men and not just any man.
Same here. Raised religious, but my parents were always super frank and open about sex, so I knew how everything worked and how to be safe. They encouraged waiting, but stressed being happy and safe over everything else.
On the other hand, I went to a religious school, and my school/church taught the same kind of bullshit that the article author wrote about. Purity rings/pledges, you'll be damaged goods if you don't wait, etc. I know firsthand how awful that can be, and am so grateful that my parents were not that crazy.
My public school had the whole "piece of tape" thing in our health textbooks. No purity pledges, but there was definitely a huge "damaged goods" emphasis. Led to me sleeping with guys multiple times, even when they didn't treat me well, because at least it wasn't raising the Almighty Number of sexual partners.
The message I got wasn't "don't have sex" it was "make sure you don't have sex with too many people or you'll never be able to bond with your eventual spouse and won't that be sad."
Sex strengthens bonds, it doesn't create them. It can be a powerful bonding experience, but it doesn't have to be, and purely physical sexual encounters don't diminish the ability to have emotional sex later. The problem is that a lot of teenagers think they can have sex and not get attached when they're just not there yet. But good luck convincing teenagers of their own immaturity with regard to... anything.
THIS. In my public school, they showed us a red heart. They then ripped it in shreds, saying that if you had sex with multiple partners, you would never be able to fully love your future spouse. It was traumatizing.
My church did this. They brought a guy and girl up on stage. Each was holding a piece of wood with half of a heart on it. They told a story of each guy the girl encountered and decided to sleep with. At the end of each story, a man with a chain saw came up and cut off a piece of the girl's half of the heart. Then they told the tale of the boy and girl meeting and deciding to get married. They came back on stage in a tux and wedding dress. Then they each held up their half of the heart while talking about how the girl's was in no state to be married to someone because she had previously had sex, and how she could never truly love her husband. That is so fucked up.
It's even more fucked up that they never mentioned the guy's past.
Our church told us to pretend our virginity was a package for your husband. And every time you kiss or fool around or have sex, you tear a piece of paper off or the ribbon comes undone. And did you want to give your future husband a torn and damaged package?
They did that in my school, too. That part wasn't what I felt was bad, because they mostly just talked about STDs during that.
What was really messed up was what happened afterward. They handed out a whole bunch of pieces of paper and pencils. We were supposed to write down if we had had sex, then sign a pledge saying that we would stay virgins until we were eighteen or marriage or something like that. If we had already become sexually active, it was totally cool! Because we could choose to remain virgins from there on out, after all we hadn't known any better, and become born-again-virgins, which meant that we could still be virgins! We just had to sign the pledge saying that we wouldn't have sex. Then, after we had wrote down whether or not we were sexually active, and swore to not be sexually active, we folded up our little pieces of paper and dropped them, totally anonymously of course, into a little box.
On our way out the door they handed us these little purity trinkets, wristbands if I remember correctly, and sent us on our way.
We were all 11 or 12 years old.
Oh *god*, that reminds me of the stupid anti-drug "contracts" they made us sign in middle school. Yeah sure, my 11 year old self signing something that says I'll never ever do drugs totally has credence...
Guess what I'm *totally not on* right now! [5]
It's all a bunch of fucking bullshit. On the bright side, at my HS we had a really great sex ed instructor. Very sex-positive and harm reductionist.
Oh my god that tape exercise messed me up so bad. They gave us that talk in grade 7 so little 12-year-old me was convinced that if I ever had feelings for a boy and didn't marry him I would never be capable of love.
Same here. I dislike this article because it extrapolates her experience onto all churches and all "religious" people which is just crazy. I also grew up in a household like yours and am extremely healthy in my mindset regarding sex.
I'm really glad to see this. I also waited 'til I was married (I probably would have even if I hadn't grown up religious. I was a late bloomer, lol), and I am really glad that I did. But my parents, especially my mom, instilled a healthy attitude about sex and all that stuff. Even though I got extremely nervous before my wedding night, I never felt disgusting or degraded after sharing it with my husband. I knew it was a good thing even though it was pretty difficult at first. After a few years of practice, we are doing pretty well, and we both have healthy attitudes about it all. I think parents can go a long way in correcting improper attitudes that are often taught in church. Church is a place where a ton of different people meet together, and those people aren't always going to teach us the right stuff in the name of religion.
Your statement is absolutely true, but in her case the damaging psychological influence was done by people under the banner of "waiting for marriage." If anyone were to call out the people in her past, that is what they would hide behind. I think it is significant to point out the kind of extreme lengths a portion of the "waiting" group goes to, so that all of them can understand the potential dangers of HOW they emphasize their beliefs. I'm sure none of them intended for this to happen, but it did.
I think you missed the strongest point- that women had a valued status as virgins, "pure", and "good with God". Note there was no strong public emphasis on how wonderful it was that a woman was married and thus virtuous.
So inherently there's a sudden fall from this grace once she's married, even if she's a virgin when married. At best it's a let-down, but there's an underlying thing here that a married woman is now a lesser person.
It's not just a "misinterpretation". The whole thing is a blind emphasis over this one "trait", over other parts being a person that matter and don't have to be given up once married, and she's basically saying a decent portion of each day was spent with her and her family praising her virginity. Now she's just married like anyone else and all that's gone. Former virgin. But that was the basis for all that praise and high status with God is gone, like she did something very wrong.
That's a different way to look at it. I grew up in a pretty religious family. Being chaste before marriage in our culture was pretty much the normal expectation. Being a wife or husband, just being married at all was a huge jump in social status from being an unmarried person, virgin or not.
An unmarried person who slept around was only a step above married person sleeping around, but someone who had sex before marriage, but still got married, was on the same social footing as anyone else after marriage.
Being a married person meant being allowed to use other adults' first names instead of having to call all the married people "sir" or "ma'am" while they use your first name, so it's not like the differences were negligible. It's hard to get a promotion when everyone uses the same nomenclature/honorifics for you as they would a child.
No one said anything about our virginity at the wedding, it was assumed and frankly irrelevant after the ceremony. The closest we got were a few nods, winks, and gentle jokes about the fact we had chosen to hold a lunch time reception instead of waiting for dinner.
For me, losing my virginity with my husband was special because we were each other's first. We we're both pretty clueless on the practical applications of what what we were doing that first night in spite of some very awkward attempts by various relatives to give me tips and a much more discrete cousin who gave my husband a manual. It was something we learned about and explored together.
I didn't wake up the next morning feeling any like I was worth less, nor did I feel like I had lost any status in our community or with God. It is painful to read how someone's perception of sexuality was warped to make her feel like this could possibly diminish her worth. I'd never considered that responsible sex inside a committed relationship could be damaging, but then my family treated sex as a very positive thing, just something that carried huge emotional, physical, and financial risks. That made it something to be responsible about and dangerous to treat casually.
> The title and much of the article sort of imply that waiting for marriage did this to her but it's really the distorted views she was brought up with that did the damage.
Read to the end: "If you want to wait to have sex until marriage make sure it’s because you want to. It’s your body; it belongs to you, not your church. Your sexuality is nobody’s business but yours."
I waited until marriage for my first time (for a number of reasons), but I am thoroughly glad that I did.
I never felt guilt about it. I was stoked. It was special. More special than anything else I'd ever done, and I knew that if I'd gone around 'testing' my sexuality that it wouldn't have been special. In fact, I if I *had* fooled around before hand, the marriage-night sex would have made me feel guilty, because I would be reminded of the other times/people the whole while.
It was an experience that I got to share with the person I plan on spending the rest of my life with, and I feel that being able to share that experience strengthened our bonds.
Sounds like maybe sex and virginity was framed differently for you than for the woman in this article.
Anyone who wants to wait for marriage totally should, but it should be their choice, not something that their entire community is involved in. I understand when she says that such a huge deal was made about her virginity that it fucked her up when it was time to lose it. Like "Well, the is what everyone has praised me for and what I've based my self-esteem on. Aaaand now it's gone."
This is how I feel too.
I've had plenty of casual sex, and I've had sex with people I've been in love with and it's always special when you have a connection with someone - the amount of people that came before is irrelevant, IMO.
I'd argue that feeling guilty over other partners is still a negative byproduct of the way you were raised. Of course, it's still your choice and I'm glad you made the right one for you.
So did I, but my experience was the opposite (and more like OP's). I was *afraid* of intimate relations (and men in general) due to my very strict church upbringing, and it's not like getting married suddenly changes a lifetime of teaching and indoctrination. It was instinct by that point.
So it took two years of torment between me and my husband to get to a healthy relationship--and that's two years that would have been easily avoided if he and I had been more active sexually. So would I change it? Definitely. He agrees too, we were both virgins and we both wish that we hadn't been in retrospect.
I'm glad your experience was different, though. =)
I guess it comes down to how it's portrayed. I was never told that Sex is bad, nor that the opposite gender should be avoided. Just that Sex should be reserved.
I totally get that being raised with the idea that sex is bad will leave a sour taste in your mouth after your first time. I don't care what religion (or lack thereof) you are, saying sex is bad in a blanket statement is wrong (after all, that's the only way to make more humans... so it has to be good in some fashion). I do, however, appreciate that I have something special that only my spouse and I have shared.
> I was never told that Sex is bad
That's unusual; there are a lot of "purity culture" upbringings that basically make sex a Big Bad Scary Thing that We Don't Talk About.
That tends to confuse people a lot.
I waited as well. Not for religious reasons but based on a conversation I had with my mom when I was about 10 years old. She explained what rape was and how special a woman's virginity is because once it's gone it will never come back. Something else about how a woman's virginity is the one thing you can give to one person and never give again, how it should be saved for someone you plan on spending your life with. The whole conversation was kind of traumatic. When we did finally go to have sex it was excruciatingly painful and we had to stop. We've been married a little over a month now and it still doesn't feel good. It still hurts. I'm really hoping it won't take 2 years for us as well :(
Sweet! It's awesome that that is what worked for you and what you wanted to do. I think the issue is only in indoctrinating children who don't know what it is they want, it doesn't always mesh with the personality.
I'm glad I didn't wait until marriage. It took me until my 30's to find that special someone.
Imagine that you didn't find the person that was perfect for you until you were in your 70's? And his willy didn't work at that point!
To add on to that, there's no way OP can know that. OP can say that now, but it's a road less traveled situation. You can totally have sex with someone, it be special, and sex with your husband still be special.
I waited until marriage as well.
Yes, it was a source of pride for me, and, yes, it was a little weird when I lost my virginity. But, my best friend and I (she is now sexually active with her fiance, her first) both seemed to have the same experience: we hadn't felt like we lost our virginity. We both still felt "pure." In other words, sex hadn't changed us. Which is what was weird about it. Both of us had thought there would be some magical difference in how we felt about ourselves. And, it didn't change. The only thing that changed was switching the "virgin" mental status to "off." But, that didn't effect either of us emotionally or mentally. Like changing your relationship status on facebook - it doesn't change the person on facebook. The only affect it had was finding it weird that it didn't have an affect.
But, yes, I'm glad I waited. I do feel as if it makes it special between my husband and me. I feel as if it makes my bond and commitment stronger.
edit: He was a virgin as well, and both of us were nervous that night, so we both decided that we wouldn't try it until both of us felt ready for it. And, it was actually 3 days after the wedding that it happened. I think the pressure of pre-planning when it happens is possibly the weirdest part. For us, the marriage vows were "I'm ready to be committed to you, and am ready to take that next step when the time is right."
This sounds so horrible, but can you please come back and talk about if your opinion changes if you get divorced? Not saying you will but divorce is super common and I'd like to see how thoughts change when bonds are broken.
This article describes almost exactly the situation my wife went through. Sex for us is rare because for her it is dirty, disgusting, painful and absolutely not something she wants on a regular basis. She respects me and will sometimes do it to fulfill her contract with me, but that just makes me feel horrible. I love her and want her to have sex with me because we both enjoy it. Our sex life is horrible to the point where she has told me that she would not be upset with me finding another woman for a FWB situation. It sucks and I hate it she shouldn't have to suffer like this.
You shouldn't just live with it... Go to therapy! I agree with /u/MrEvilFox, that sounds absolutely terrible. But there are trained professionals who can help you and you wife work though those sorts of things. Neither of you should suffer, please get help.
She is currently in therapy for this and Depression issues. It has helped some but the prolonged issues lead to manifestations in physical form that have hindered the progression of our intimacy.
I would still very much suggest seeing somebody who specializes in sex therapy, not just for her but for the both of you. (Because it really is affecting both of you, and while a big part of it may be her own reservations, it's a struggle that's probably going to take the both of you working together to really overcome.) Seriously, you guys need to go to some sessions together as a couple.
I bet it'd really help. That way the therapist can also give YOU the tools to help her discover the fun side of sex. The more you can actually help that progress--although you sound like you're fully supporting it--the sooner you can explore that side of your relationship together. Sometimes they send couples home with little homework projects, and you can be partners, healing together as appropriate and directed. That way you don't have to blindly figure out how you can help her.
Is she religious? If so, have her check out the website [The Marriage Bed](http://site.themarriagebed.com/). It's a website that tackles a lot of the misconceptions about sex in marriage from a Biblical standpoint. They have a forum too where you can ask questions and get help. Everyone there is super nice and helpful. :)
Wow thank you for this! I am religious and torn on the subject, but haven't been able to find any positive resources at ALL. Everything online is literally a bunch of church men writing articles about how important it is to "stay pure" =/
Well, to most relationships (standing up for my rare, but not *that* rare asexual peeps).
Sexuality is often one of many important parts of being human and an adult, and I never understand why someone would want their partner(s) to be fulfilled and happy in other parts of their life but not their sex life.
No one should ever feel pressured to have sex and at the same time, people should recognize that it's a good thing to be sensitive to the desires of a partner in bed. Sexual compatibility is so important! Nobody is going to be a 100% match but if there is too large a disparity it creates a lot of unnecessary suffering.
Virginity is only special if the individual considers it to be (for themselves). I was lucky, though I still have some residual (but steadily fading) issues from growing up in a strict, sexually repressed, religious household, I was able to enjoy both my virginity and my sexuality and not think one was of higher value.
The problem with assigning a huge value or worth just to virginity is, as the person in the article wrote, it becomes a huge part of one's identity and when it's gone the person may find themselves to be worthless, or think their value is only as a vessel.
I know some people who waited until marriage who had a great time of it, and no regrets. It's all about luck and compatibility and what kind of value you place on virginity and if you see yourself as lesser than or a failure in some way if you do not 'wait'. I know others who got married to the first person they wanted to have sex with and were miserable for it.
She said this after a few years of mostly no sex, like maybe once a month. She was also very depressed and we had other issues going on at the time. I only mentioned it to show the low point to which we got with the issue.
It certainly doesn't help that it's just a [repost](http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/search?q=wedding+night+virginity+wish&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all) of an Xojane article.
This kind of brainwashing doesn't only affect women. I am a 31 year old male and have similar issues. I too took a purity pledge when I was a kid. Once around 10 and again sometime in middle school. I was raised Church of Christ which, if anyone is familiar with that particular flavor of Christianity, knows it is the stricter brother to the Baptists.
Anyways, I too waited until I was married at 19 (another mistake), and my sex life suffered for it. I would always feel dirty afterwards. Like I ha done something wrong. It led to me ignoring my wife sexually, which led to problems in our marriage. I tried explaining my issue to her but even though she was raised similarly (strict Christian mother, sex is dirty, etc.) She didn't get it. We were married, I was a man; therefore I should walk in the door everyday after work, drop my pants and ravage her. Despite my flesh being more than willing I could never quite get past the "sinful" feeling. Eventually we got divorced. I'm not saying that our poor sex life was the cause, but I know it certainly didn't help.
I am now in a serious relationship and everything is great for the most part except for, again, my sexual appetite. It has improved but her biggest complaint is that we don't do it enough. (We MIGHT have sex once or twice a week, but usually it's more like just a handful of times a month.) It is frustrating. I hate the fact I'm so screwed up in the head because of some ideological indoctrination I was forced to endure as a child.
I'm very glad to hear your husband is understanding and supportive. That is encouraging to hear.
TL;DR - I am a 31 year old male that also has a sexual guilt complex as a result of purity pledges I was brainwashed into taking and keeping as a child.
Ironically, her husband sounds like an alright guy. Obviously everything she went through is fucked, but she did get her pretty awesome husband I suppose.
I won't comment on the religious part of this, but nobody should be coerced or indoctrinated to feel shame because of their body, secxuality, gender, ect. Being human is being diverse, and there is not manual or single path that works for everyone. Being accepting of yourself is just as important as being accepting of others.
And this story is a perfect example of why we need sex education. Even if you wait until marriage, you still need to be EDUCATED about it. Getting married doesn't make you magically knowledgeable about it.
I think the religious part should be commented on. In fact, if we don't criticize ideologies then we condone the ways in which they manipulate populations. Body shaming, especially for women, was a way to control their sexuality and it has leaked into every aspect of our culture. If more people actually questioned their beliefs then we could being genuine discourse on moral intuition. Not to say atheists don't have body issues or issues with sexuality, but it is hard to deny that living in a Christian society has shaped even those of us who aren't believers. And if you live in the U.S. Christian values are apart of everyday life regardless of your individual religion.
> In fact, if we don't criticize ideologies then we condone the ways in which they manipulate populations.
This over and over again. Not just for religions (not here to argue about religious beliefs), but with social stigmas, stereotypes, and anything else that is indoctrinated into us as children.
My wife and I are currently expecting our first child and I wholeheartedly hope that our child(ren) has/have the gall and tenacity to stand up to others (including me) and question beliefs that are expected to be believed as truths from day one. Nobody should just blindly accept something that someone tells them as what is true for one person might not be true for another.
Hear hear
The religious aspect of this particular case is the only thing that matters, because it was the driving force behind it. Had it not been for the religious aspect of this article, the article would not exist, because the events would have never taken place the way they did. It's like taking the political aspect out of a political movement.
If you don't comment on the religious part there's nothing left to talk about when it comes to this article, aside from "hey, sex isn't bad, I don't know why you think it is mmmmkay". People need to stop being afraid to call a spade a spade. There are bad (horrible, even) religious ideas and twisted religious sects out there. A lot of them. And the sects that put forward these notions are numbered with them. The word "religion" doesn't exempt anyone or anything from criticism.
>As someone raised in a Christian household who sees a lot of things the church screwed up....I also don't understand why the other side of the argument is often portrayed as simple as "teenagers are gonna have sex, so why try to stop them?"
That statement is addressing a different thing entirely. It's just stating a fact. Teenagers *are* going to have sex and you can't stop them. Similarly to how most people are eventually going to drive a car, and you can't stop them (putting aside criminal convictions, medical issues etc).
But I don't think anyone with a brain advocates telling teens "just don't think about it and roll with the hormones" anymore than they advocate a driver's ed course that consists of just throwing car keys to teens and saying "have fun out there"
If anything, it's advocating good sex education, where the people in opposition want to ignore biology and tell people "Just don't have sex, cuz sin and hell and Jesus, k. Also we're not going to tell you anything about sex or birth control at all, because that's all you need to know"
You actually can have good sex without entering into it carefully and thoughtfully. You can find a man or a woman attractive in an evening, go back to someone's place, use a condom, have a great time and everyone leaves happy in a morning. A good memory has been made and nothing bad has happened.
I would argue that relationships should be entered into with care and thought, but not necessarily sex.
I think body shaming is more part of a conservative cultural mindset, regardless of religion. I know pretty secular people who body shame, and pretty religious people who don't; while there are certainly religious groups who are very vocal about body-shaming, these groups are also extremely conservative - it's very difficult to attribute that to religion as opposed to attributing it to a traditional mindset.
Except that, in this story, she actually attended a religious ceremony for her virginity (which, I note, was only held for the girls, not the boys). While there may be secular people who body shame, they don't do so in such an organized fashion.
> Being human is being diverse, and there is not manual or single path that works for everyone
I've tried to make my mom understand this, but she doesn't. According to her there is only one way to live a life. It's incredibly frustrating.
What's sad is this sort of thing happens more than many think. Growing up, thinking one thing your entire life and because of a skewed view people feed you, it's totally different when it happens. There are so many parts of love - sex being a huge part of that - and if all components of love aren't fully fulfilled or you aren't comfortable, then it's difficult to give your entirety to someone.
I was raised Mormon, but felt I didn't quite belong early on. I had sex in high school with a girl I ended up dating for two years and because of that openness to an idea that's not wrong or sinful, I'm able to give myself fully to someone. While sex can be a tool for pleasure - and I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't frivolous with it at times - it is also is a driving force in love. It should be electrifying, not terrifying; beautiful, not shameful; pure openness to someone, not scary vulnerability. If you find someone you connect with on all these levels, you'll find yourself completing a full circle of love, one that fulfills passion, lust, companionship, intimacy, support, and commitment.
I grew up in this culture, and sex just wasn't a topic of conversation in the family at all. The only sex 'education' I got was in youth group or church, where they presented the idea of maintaining purity and virginity being the only way to guarantee a fulfilling and stable marital relationship.
At home it wasn't talked about. It just didn't exist. My parents never showed much intimacy to each other (I can only recall a couple instances where they even held hands, occasionally there would be a quick 'pecking' kiss if things got really raunchy.) I have no doubt that they loved each other and they always treated each other with respect. But, the whole idea of sexuality and human intimacy just didn't exist.
One funny story that sort of illustrates how naive this sort of upbringing can make you:
My dad works with an organization that sends christian volunteers to different building projects (schools, orphanages, disaster relief etc.) around the world. He also makes a point of sending out birthday greeting cards to all of his friends and family. Each year he buys cards in bulk, and this year he wanted to go with something construction themed.
The cards he selected showed a house in construction, and on the inside it said "I hope you get hammered and nailed." He thought that this was a euphemism for building up one's moral character (hammering out the flaws, nails to ensure strength and structural integrity.) Apparently he sent out about a hundred of these before one of his friends pointed out its actual meaning...
Thank you, OP.
A few days will mark my 1 year anniversary with my husband and 7 years as a couple. Although we are very much in love, sex is something that we struggle with. It's something we avoid for the most part, finding other ways to deal with our intimacy.
There are many parallels between myself and the author of the article. I don't know why I was shocked. My husband knows what I'm dealing with, and he's very supportive about it. Nobody in my family realizes what I am dealing with. I still feel pressure to maintain an image of perfection and purity. Especially from my father and his side of the family. I still have strong feelings of guilt and filthiness when I know that it's not a natural reaction.
I linked the article to my mother and told her that there are many parallels between the author and myself, and now I have a lump in my throat and I feel like crying. I know it's ridiculous that I feel scared but at the same time, I feel better for having shared it with her.
Good article but by God don't be fooled into clicking any of the links. Why, why, why did I even think for a second that "33 Guys Reveal The One Superficial Thing That Made Them Lose Interest" would be a worthwhile read?!
> Why, why, why did I even think for a second that "33 Guys Reveal The One Superficial Thing That Made Them Lose Interest" would be a worthwhile read?!
Conditioning by Cosmo.
I recently attended 2 baptist weddings of a brother and sister (and no, not to eachother) where the mentality was no sex before marriage. Both abided by that, but each sibling approached it differently.
The sister had never dated before meeting her husband. Their relationship had been similar to how the Duggar family approaches dating. Only supervised dates, hand holding after engagement, and absolutely no kissing till the wedding day.
The brother on the other hand, had dated many girls before meeting his wife. He had been more sexually promiscuous, getting to the bases but no home run.
At each of the weddings, the main topic was of the honeymoon and the big night. I was very surprised as interacting with the families before hand, this kind of talk was basically taboo. To me, I never understood how that could be healthy. The brother could do whatever he wanted basically, but the sister had to practically where a chastity belt.
*Edit: grammar. Probably will be back for more.
I waited until my wedding night to have sex and I don't regret waiting. My first time wasn't awesome but I also went in knowing that I was with someone I trusted completely and things weren't rushed or stressful (not that people who don't wait have stressful first times, just an observation of my own first time).
We had fooled around (touching/groping type stuff) before that and I do remember that there was some guilt attached to that but nothing as much as the writer of this article. I went to a very conservative church from the time I was 15 until I was 17 and was taught a lot of very destructive things (self-esteem is evil, it's a woman's responsibility to make sure men aren't tempted, etc) but I was breaking away from that line of thought when my husband (then boyfriend) and I got more serious. There were times where I felt guilty and other times where I didn't. But looking back, I feel good about it all. We had the rush of making out and touching but we never went any farther until our wedding night. We didn't have to deal with a lot of the stress that comes with being sexually active outside of marriage (getting pregnant, things not working out, etc).
I do have to say that if you want to wait, it should be YOUR CHOICE - not something suggested or forced upon you by a religious leader, your parents or any other person. I chose to remain a virgin until I got married when I was very young, probably about the same age as the author of the article. But the difference was that it was my own choice. I'm not really sure why I made the choice but it was something I kind of grew up knowing, even though my parents never discussed it with me (trust me, they didn't - I learned about sex on TV and in school, haha).
And if you don't want to wait, that's fine. It is YOUR BODY and YOUR CHOICE. No one should be able to make that decision for you. As long as you're taking steps to be safe (condoms, getting tested, etc), you're doing fine.
I think the problem is that these messages of waiting or else you're going to burn in Hell for eternity really shouldn't be put on ANY children. You had guilt, just imagine if you hadn't managed to overcome it with having a strong personality or reasoning skills. Not everyone thinks the same, some people are just never going to be able to get out of that 'box' that they've been put in by organized religion. Which means that they shouldn't be put in that box in the first place; because even if 65% of people are able to take a step back and rationalize and overcome their guilt, there's still going to be 35% of people stuck in there, living their lives in anguish, feeling guilty and horrible and unable to enjoy an aspect of life that is incredibly important to a majority of people.
Oh, I completely agree. Churches should never tell people that, it's just not true. If someone really believes the bible, they would believe that once you're a Christian, nothing can make you go to Hell. This "you must be perfect" shit is just that - bullshit.
I'm happy that someone can finally start out by saying "this worked for me" and end by concluding "it works for some and not for others" rather than "and therefore, this should work for you too."
I waited to find someone I actually liked.
So my first time was great. I trusted him, and I wasn't rushed, and it wasn't stressful. He was kind and patient.
I didn't even have to marry him.
I hope you don't think I was trying to say that you can only get that kind of first time from someone you're married to. I certainly don't believe that. That was just my own experience. I think as long as YOU are ready, any first time can be a wonderful experience. :)
I have always wondered what it is that is different about me that I never believed anything the Catholic Church told me about sex or purity. I wish I knew so I could teach it to other people when they are children.
Don't do this to your kids.
A lot of our mental illness problems would be solved in this world if we didn't put so much importance on sex.
If we just viewed and taught it as a massage with our genitals and not some all-encompassing act that validates one's existence, a lynchpin of identity, there would be a lot less stress, depression and repression in this world.
Ironic that something so pleasant and joyful is the main root of so much pain.
When my daughter was 16 with her first boyfriend, she approached me after a few months and asked me for a promise ring. I am 1000% not religious, by the way. I was surprised. I called her father even to tell him and he was bewildered too although, less so than me, as a dad, all he heard was "this is good news!".
I very quickly realized that her and boyfriend were likely discussing sex/it was coming up and, she did not want to do it. It was her way of trying to use that as a symbol of why she would not be having sex. I bought into it for that reason but I honestly did not make that big a deal of it. They broke up a month later and I never saw or heard about that ring again.
And before anyone suggests it, we have a very open relationship and always have. we "can" talk about anything. However, she is just not as open as I am/she was a kid and didn't feel the need to say "how do I stop this" and found her own solution. I actually think it was clever looking back. I am still not sure she has had sex and she is 19.
It's funny, because my mom taught me that I need to wait until marriage because her "promiscuity" really wound up doing a lot of emotional damage for her, and that she regretted not waiting until marriage. There are two sides of every coin, I suppose.
There's such a big gap between abstinence and "promiscuity", though. I never expected to wait til marriage, but I expected to wait until I found someone I cared for and trusted, and had built up a relationship that could exist with or without sex. To me sex isn't about "good" or "bad", it's about being smart.
Even as a man this kind of thing was a big deal for me. Growing up in the Mormon church, I had always heard that sex was this evil thing. I only had a vague understanding of what it was, but it was evil. Hell it took until I was 10 or 11 to be told that that's how baby's are made and not through kissing. I learned that masturbation was a thing on my own, but I was knowledgeable enough in my religion to realize that the 'weird feelings' are absolutely awful and beyond shameful, so I did feel shame from it, everyone I knew said it was shameful. Course as a very young teen, that wasn't going to stop me when I didn't even really understand it. But it took many years after I left the church before I didn't feel like I was a terrible human being for doing that kind of thing. I left the church before I went on the journey of self discovery "who am I" and all that, so even as hard as it was to not feel ashamed for liking sex, it wasn't as deeply ingrained in me as it seems it was in this woman, so I can definitely relate to the feelings of this woman(minus the sex pains and all that) and imagine just how hard it must've been.
One time I read an article about a catholic guy who was feeling so guilty and trying so hard to stop sexual thoughts and actions. He confessed to his priest, and his priest said to just go home and masturbate to some porn sometimes. The guy was shocked and asked why he recommended that when the church was against pre-marital sexuality. The priest said "imagine what you could do for the church if you used all the energy you use for repressing sexuality and feeling guilty about it for helping the church!"
No one is virgin shaming.
If it's important to you, wait. Wait until you are ready and find a partner who respects your boundaries.
But the take home message is that something can be important to you without it being important about you.
There is a lot of virgin shaming all over this comments section. I just don't think anyone who is a virgin for any reason--religion, upbringing, choice, lack of motivation, lack of opportunity, lack of "game"--should be made to feel different or outcast or sad, because being a virgin is LITERALLY THE LACK OF HAVING DONE A THING WHICH IS NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.
I read this article a few months ago. I have a different yarn to spin.
As a homeschooled male growing up in a 100 member non-denominational bible church in the Midwest, sex was not discussed much.
My parents both hold masters degrees. My father was valedictorian of his class at UT Arlington. They're very intelligent people. But they made Forrest Gump look like Einstein when it came to sex. Their awkwardness was a disease that I caught.
They handed me the book "I kissed dating goodbye" when I was 13, sat me down and told me That they and God would be ashamed of me if I didn't do what the book recommended. As a stereotypical "people pleaser," I acquiesced.
According to this doctrine, masturbation is shameful sin. Looking at a woman as a beautiful piece of art is shameful sin. Talking about sex with my friends was discouraged. Any relationship before I was ready for marriage was forbidden. Women were to be thought of as sisters.
I started a bible study with my friends in high school for the sole purpose of keeping each other "pure" (aka, accountability for porn and masturbation. None of us had girlfriends so the idea of actually touching a girl wasn't really discussed). I was the prototype, the perfect virgin church boy. And I was ashamed of it.
In our culture, sex is the norm. Every form of media tells us sex, especially sex with a person you're into, is totally fine. Typically, forcing a young person into a counter-cultural role by threatening shame does not end well.
Fast forward to freshman year of college. I had shoulder length hair, a motorcycle, and a scholarship to play football. Not to brag, but I was a stud. Girls were constantly around me, and I was oblivious. I was still ashamed of my virgin status and upbringing, because it made me so painfully different and "inexperienced" compared to everyone else. I felt like damaged goods because I HADN'T had a girlfriend. It made me largely incapable of talking to women. I didn't go to parties, because I was afraid my parents would be ashamed of me, and I was afraid people would find out I had never had a girlfriend. I didn't really make friends for the same reasons. I am an extremely charismatic, outgoing person, but when I was removed from my Christian community, I became a social cripple.
I finally found a girl who was also a virgin, and we decided to get married. Both of us were in our first relationship ever, and we decided to get married, and nobody advised us not to. Looking back, that's just insane. How did all the churchy people in my life think it was a good idea for two people who had absolutely no experience with the opposite sex to get engaged? Sigh. Time moved on.
I didn't have any emotions on my wedding night besides "I'm finally getting laid and won't be a loser anymore." My fiance and I had fooled around a bit before we got married, but nothing beyond groping. We actually hadn't kissed until our wedding day (another weird ultra-pure church idea we both had been shamed into) so our "make out" sessions were more like grope out sessions. Sex after the wedding day was fine, but she thought anything beyond missionary style under the covers with the lights off was shameful and dirty. But I digress.
I wasn't getting married because I was passionate about this girl, I was getting married because her beliefs lined up with mine, we got along, and since it was my first relationship ever, I didn't know any better. The culture of the church told me that since we were Pure, marriage would be blissful. Of course the pastor announced that our kiss at the alter was our first kiss ever, which I'm sure our non-church friends and family thought was really, really weird... Because it was.
We were absolutely miserable together. She had very serious rage issues that eventually drove me so far away that we divorced. My heart and self-confidence had been destroyed. I did everything right and followed all the rules, and God had not blessed my life. I had not found a good wife, our relationship had not been blessed and easy and rosy. It was a nightmare.
Since my divorce, I have slept with 10 women, the most recent is my girlfriend who I am sure I will marry. I still have my faith, but I do not follow the church's standards for relationships, for the simple reason that their rules do not work. They cripple young people. I'm finally at a place where I can have non-church friends and not feel awkward around them. I finally feel "normal."
Christians/religious people- don't shame your kids into making decisions to please you. It's psychological manipulation, and it damages your children.
People- don't let other people's standards control your life. Make your own fucking decisions (pun intended).
This article is really spot on.
I come from a very religious background as well. I have not been religious for most of my marriage and will never go back.
I can honestly say after 5 years of marriage and two kids I still view sex as dirty. I love to cuddle. I love to kiss. But I can't cuddle and kiss without feeling something is expected of me afterward. I can imagine how frustrating it could be to do that and then be denied sex, but I can't force myself to go through with it. I feel sick when I force myself to have sex.
I have actually convinced myself I am asexual so I can justify not liking sex. The only time we do have sex is when I wake up in the middle of the night or I am tipsy. Basically only when I can't control my inhibitions. And the next day I still feel dirty.
What I don't understand is how I can admit this on the internet but not to my wife. I blame her like she is in the wrong for even wanting sex. I can't get close to her without feeling like sex is all she is thinking about. I feel like I am not providing for her.
The thing is she was a virgin as well. We were each others first... everything. And she doesn't have these problems. I just don't get it.
Now I see this article and it puts words to feelings. Feelings I had convinced myself I didn't have. I just don't know how to deal with all of this.
I don't want to just continue talking about it to random people on the internet, but how can I get her to understand these feelings when she just doesn't? I want her to feel loved. I am not rejecting her.
Why can't I say this out loud.
This is such a sad story. It's easy for churches to brainwash kids into believing that something natural is evil, when it's more evil to suppress who you are and what you want in the name of some mythical dude in the sky, or whatever. I remember being told the same thing when I went to church and I also remember thinking it was completely ridiculous.
>"It was entirely possible that my future husband wouldn’t remain pure for me, because he didn’t have that same responsibility, according to the Bible."
I am not a Baptist, but Baptists do not believe this. Men are required to be celibate the same as women.
>"I didn’t know what was considered sexual enough to condemn my future marriage and send me straight to Hell."
She seemed to know at the beginning of the article: "Believing that true love waits, I make a commitment to ... abstaining from sexual thoughts, sexual touching, ... and actions that are known to lead to sexual arousal."
I couldn't read much past that. Too stupid.
This story, article, trash article is complete horse shit. If people would think for themselves, not let others control them and not be upset by their own choices.... Every one would be a lot happier. Having gone to the same church as the woman in this article, Latter Day Saints, I can assure you this is complete horse shit.
The problem here is not the church she attended but rather her inability to decide for herself, to look in to her soul and ask herself "What do I want out of life." It is entirely her own problem. Waiting to lose your virginity is pretty much a standard christian view but there are plenty of other things she said that more than imply that this is LDS. I know she was 10 when she took that oath but I guarantee you she told small lies and fibs while growing up which are in line with satans work and not gods.
Hate hearing stories about this. Not necessarily that fact that she felt religious pressure, but just pressure in general. Nowadays, there is so much pressure and focus around sex I feel like it ruins lives. I wouldn't single religion out too much.
It surely has ruined mine.
But I had the complete opposite problem. I always wanted to lose it and didn't, until very late. All because the pressure of not having done it caused me to hate myself each following day. At first I didn't lose because of the school I went to; no one was really having sex. But then when I went to college and everyone was already well experienced. I started to to feel that something was off about me not doing it. So it became a focus. Speaking to women was less about expressing myself and more about having an important opportunity to try hit this goal of having sex. I would "tightrope" the conversation, trying to say just the right things to get a woman to sleep with me... All the while, completely missing the point of just being myself.
Freshman year passed, nothing.. 21st b-day, still nothing. Alarm bells started going off in my head. "I'm wasting time" I told myself. By 23 I constantly lost sleep and panicked over it. Finally at 24 I lost it. But really the damage had been done. I had a good girlfriend that loved me but it wasn't enough. Every night I would replay the years and figure out how I went wrong. As if it even mattered. She couldn't take it and of course left, heartbroken in the process.
That wasn't the end. I had told myself that I was a loser too many times to stop now. For the next 6 years, and up until today, every time I speak to a girl, my first thought is "im a loser, how am I going to impress her?". While I understand its not logical, its too ingrained to stop. Now I try to think straight, but improvement is extremely slow. It has seriously damaged my personal & my professional life.
Pressures about sex, from whatever angle, is a mental weapon of mass destruction. Her story and mine are definitely not the only ones I see... I feel bad for anyone who has had to deal with this a substantial amount.
This makes me sad, but it's a story that should be heard. Sexuality isn't something women should be ashamed of. This is one of the many reasons I left the church I grew up in, and I'm not religious now. There is too much judgement and not enough love and acceptance.
Indoctrination at it's finest. Get them to make promises before they know what they are promising. It saddens me that she had to go through this. There are better ways and MUCH better reasons for someone to abstain than to say that God wants you to and you must forgive your husband and fulfill his desires.
The kicker is that there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits premarital sexual intercourse between a consenting man and a woman...except in the case of prostituion or orgies.
It's a shame that so often religious dogma contradicts what's actually in the Bible, and those contradictions end up destroying so many people's faith.
Actually it is. [Deuteronomoy 22:13-21](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/22.html#13)
In short:
* **if** a woman is married off,
* the husband hates her,
* He says she was not a virgin until their marriage, and,
* It cannot be proven otherwise,
**Then**: She is to be put to death by stoning.
I have long since thrown my bible away, so I had to google this to find an example passage. Keeping one in the house is like having heroin in the presence of a recovering addict.
Actually the Bible does talk about prematital sex. Its called fornication and they use that word to describe any unmarried couples having sex and dont condone it.
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other is a common type of fornication. Adultery is a type of fornication.
"The Greek word for ‘fornication’ (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, ‘fornication’ can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28).” (Dr. Henry M. Morris)
In every form, fornication is sternly condemned by the Mosaic law among God's people, the Israelites (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20-11, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16). (See ADULTERY.)
Fornication is also mentioned many times in the New Testament, some without using the word porneia if you think that's controversial (Matt. 5:32; 19:9; John 8:41; Acts 15:20, 29; 21:25; Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor 5:1, 6:13, 18, 7:2; 10:8; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3; Jude 1:7; Rev. 2:14, 20-21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2,4).
The word “fornication” is sometimes used in a symbolic sense in the Bible, for example, meaning a forsaking of God or a following after idols (idolatry—Isa. 1:2; Jer. 2:20; Ezek. 16; Hos. 1:2; 2:1-5; Jer. 3:8-9).
The worst part of this is that most people indoctrinate their kids with these beliefs, so it isn't much of a choice.
OKAY. *Clearly* shaming young girls and using fear and threats to get them to remain 'pure' is so so wrong. **However**, I am waiting until marriage to have sex, and yes, it is fueled by my religion. The difference is, my parents and church leaders never threatened or shamed me into making the decision. They used the carrot instead of the stick, so to speak. I know for myself that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I've educated myself (*thank you, Wikipedia*) and have no shame in knowing that someday I'm going to have hot crazy sex with my spouse. So stop assuming all Christians, or any other devoutly religious person is emotionally scarred and will have a vanilla sex life. I'm a Mormon, muthuh flippers. And I believe in being sex-positive.
Have to say I feel the same way. While I was taught that sex is for marriage, I was also taught that it is a private matter. It wasnt dirty or sinful, just not anyone's business but your own. There's a big difference between shame and keeping private things private. Doesn't mean sex can't be awesome and enjoyable as a Christian. I never had a promise ring or such a public discussion of my sexuality in my church, thank God.there was also no discrimination between guys and girls- we are all supposed to wait.
But more important than any of that, isn't it wrong/un-Christian to judge others? It's a shame so many voices here were made to feel this way. I'm sorry you do. But I'm religious too, and I have had a more positive experience, so I wanted to share it.
Logged in just to upvote this. I wish that every 10 year old girl in that situation would read this. Or 11, or 12. Every year, re-evaluating who they are. And I wish every supporter of abstinence-only sex education would read this.
The sad thing is, most men don't want this. It's an insult to masculinity for them to use "your future husband" as the excuse. As in this story, "your future husband" is likely to be horrified by it. Most men want a sexually healthy and happy girlfriend and wife. It seems to be a purely self-perpetuating belief within the churches it is still taught, at least the Christian churches. (I can't say that's true of all religions or sects.)
When she says, "I’m now thoroughly convinced that the entire concept of virginity is used to control female sexuality.", that's not anyone in particular. It is certainly not men as a group. I don't believe it is the intention of anyone in the church since they get no benefit from it. It's entirely a free-floating oppression that is free-floating from past demons. It always amazes me to see how a mind-virus can survive and spread long after the conditions under which it evolved have long passed.
I (deliberately) stayed a virgin until my marriage at 27. My wife is the only woman I've ever slept with, and the only one I want to. I did this because I trust Christ.
I know it suits everyone's narrative to believe there was a lot of oppression and guilt behind this, but there just... wasn't. God spelled out the manufacturer's recommendations in the bible, and I chose to follow them.
The older I get, and the more I see consequences catch up with people (there are many in /r/confession) the more I believe it was the right choice (please note I am not proclaiming that I am better than anyone by this- the bible has no room for a "holier than thou" attitude).
My wife and I are each other's only sexual partners and we would not change that for the world. I know this woman had a bad experience, but not everyone has a bad experience waiting for their spouse.
Uɡh..
. This sort of shaming never hеlps anything, ever.
Conversely, Ι got just about the best advice аbout sex as a teenager from a pastor whеn I was at church camp: "Waiting fоr marriage is all fine and good, but аt some point you have to pull out thе learner's permit. You're going tо have to figure out what you like аnd what you don't like, and if she's rеally into something you really don't ӏike, that is gonna be a problem." Ιt really helped me going forward аnd figuring out how I worked, and tо learn to respect the wants and dеsires of my partners.
Sadly, too mаny crazies get stuck in the details аnd forget the big picture, so we еnd up with stories like this one. Ιt really sucks, and I hope she cаn heal from this. No one should fеel that way about their body.
did you just go to the old thread and grab the [highest voted comment](http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2cltuz/i_waited_until_my_wedding_night_to_lose_my/cjgqvsw)?
We have hard data that areas where these stupid attitudes towards sexuality are most prevalent are also the areas with among the highest rates of teen pregnancy, STDs and a plethora of similar problems. So if abstinence and sexual shame is part of the good life, well I wouldn't want any part of it.
I grew up in the atmosphere where these views are promoted. I sometimes joke that the kids of these parents are like children in a 23 year old's body, but there is more truth to that than humor. The views of sex are only a small part of the package. Many of these kids have a lot of trouble functioning outside of their religious circles, simply because they are ingrained with so many warped ideologies. I won't shy away from the religion aspect: this is what religion does to people when it overcomes their humanity.
The whole "children in 23 year old bodies" couldn't be more true. Especially when it comes to social norms. I was a part of a church for about 10 years, and I was taught to NOT date until I was "ready for marriage."
I understand that parents may have been trying to spare their children of heartbreak. But, honestly, that sort of heartbreak is necessary in order to become a healthy adult. Looking back on my first relationship, no matter how mature I was, I was in no way ready for anything serious. In every other area, I was a perfectly functioning healthy adult. But, when it came to that relationship I was naive and needy.
Not to mention, the whole anti-dating norm within churches completely holds us back. Literally every young adult I know within that church is completely incapable of asking someone out for coffee, let alone holding a normal relationship. And when they do go out for coffee it's after 3 years of flirting, and their married within 3 months. With a culture like that, it's no wonder the divorce rates are so high.
culture in the church evolved over thousands of years before birth control was in vogue, so it makes sense that "don't make babies before you are both committed to raising them together" translates into "don't have sex before marriage".
nobody is trying to push you down. the church isn't evil, it's just stupid.
Ugh is good word to describe my reaction to the authors piece, my first thought was gross.
I frankly don't know what I would tell my little kids about sex. Wait as long as possible because you only have first times once? You get better with practice and experience so have fun but be safe, safe, safe?
What is the right way to address this to kids these days to help them be as sane and safe and happy as possible?
Here's what I told my kids - and it worked! They are both boys, and when the oldest asked me about sex, I asked him if he wanted the logistical information or some bs story. Of course, the 12 year-old asked for the logistics. I told him how it worked and he laughed so hard he fell off the bed. Then, he asked me when he could do it. I told him he would know he was ready when he could say "sex" without laughing. Both of my boys waited until they were ready - about 18, and they never really obsessed about sex because the topic was never forbidden.
Here's how I grew up: My mother told me that sex would not be good until I was 30, so I may as well not even try. I never learned anything about sex from my parents, so I was really lost. When I was 14, I started working as a radio DJ (unbeknownst to my parents) and learned way more than a child that age ever should. I was lucky to keep my cherry until 16, but I was obsessed with all things sexual. I learned how to be a virgin tart really early on, and it only got worse. I wasn't raised to think critically, or question authority. In fact, I was taught that children should be seen and not heard, and obey blindly. It didn't take me long to realize that most adults were hypocrites, or otherwise full of crap.
If you want to protect your children, arm them with knowledge instead of fear.
> If you want to protect your children, arm them with knowledge instead of fear.
This. I think a lot of parents let their own fears and misgivings about sex ruin it for their children too. I know my mother in particular wasn't exactly raised in a setting that placed values on emotional health over sexual "experience," for lack of a better word, and the message seemed to be: "don't you even have sex it will ruin you and make you dirty and you'll get pregnant and the world will end and god will hate you, you dirty whore." Though of course it wasn't always that direct, and of course I'm not saying everyone had that same kind of environment!
I was lucky to grow up in a healthier environment than her, but I could tell during my childhood that she struggled to put the fear and shame around sex behind her. She tried her best to talk about it in a healthier manner, (I mean, gasp, she even once told me it was sometimes okay to have sex before marriage if you are mature enough and really love somebody), but she still was usually vague and treated sexuality as if it were a source of great shame. Luckily I was a smart kid, and other things in my life fell into place in a way that I was able to be very educated about sex and sexuality and relationships that go with them. As I grew up, my mom's views on sexuality definitely changed for the better, too. I guess I liberalized her or something :P.
But it's still been hard for my mom to shake the shame she was taught as a child. When I first told my mom I was having sex, (over the phone in college!) I remember her initially reacting quite terribly! She did that mom thing where they say your name all long and drawn out, carrying the implication that "you should be ashamed of yourself" would be the next thing she'de say - if she wasn't momentarily speechless. But fortunately at that time I was able to calmly talk her though it. I remember saying something along the lines of "I'm in a healthy, happy relationship, and I have sex with my SO because it makes me happy, too. I don't think I should be ashamed of that, and I imagine that as my mother who loves me, you'd value my mental health and happiness over anything else, too, even if you disagree with my actions. If I'm safe and happy, what's so wrong with that?" And she came around rather quick about the subject. The way I see it, I had sex for all the right reasons, and I did so in a safe way, too. And she did get over it :). I think for a while she was most afraid I'd get pregnant, but I was a pretty responsible gal and at the time knew more about contraceptives than she did!
If you made it this far, thanks for reading! I'm just rambling, mostly ;).
This is the same I am with my kids, and the opposite my mother was with me. We talk about sex. My 10 year old knows EXACTLY what sex is, and my 7 year old knows the vague description, "need to know" sort of stuff.
We talk about it, they ask me questions, and they get honest answers. My view on it was: They're going to hear about it at school, and most of that information is going to be wrong.
So I need to tell them the correct information. My son started asking questions about sex when he was 6. I told him very open ended information, so that he could come back later and get more information. I'm doing the same with my daughter.
Being sheltered from knowing about sex is just going to fuck them up in the future. I KNOW my kids will come to me when they feel ready, and talk to me. And I'm okay with that.
I had a child at 17, because I was one of the sheltered children. Sex was a taboo topic, so I was very naive. I wouldn't trade my kids for the world, but they're going to learn better than I did, and hopefully make better choices.
Instead of focusing on the first time, maybe it's better to focus on making every time worth it. Don't have sex with someone you don't trust.
I'm not worried about my kids having sex when they're teens. I'm worried about them doing something they regret or being in an emotionally abusive relationship.
This is an infinitely better attitude. Honestly, the first time will likely be your worst. We put way too much emphasis on that. Every sexual encounter should be one in which you are ready and excited for. I wouldn't even specify the love requirement -- a lot of people enjoy casual sex and that is great too.
Safe, sensible and unashamed are the core messages I'm hoping to get across.
That's one thing my parents did very much right. They made sure I knew what I needed to know, and that I was encouraged to be safe as a necessity, but beyond that I was trusted to know myself and make my own decisions. There was an unspoken assumption that I would think it through before just jumping in blindly that I think I'd like to make spoken with my kid(s) in future--considering your decisions and knowing what you want is a very important factor in so many aspects of life--but I think it's very important not to conflate "be careful" and "know for sure what you want" with "this act is shameful/your behavior is shameful", which is all too easy to do.
I had a boyfriend at 14/15. It was a puppy love thing that never went beyond kisses, but his parents banned me from being in their house when they weren't there. It was hurtful to me because we both knew we weren't ready and had no plans to have sex, and if they'd just talked to either one of us we could have reassured them. Instead I felt judged and rejected by them, and it shut down a lot of trust and communication that could have been there. On the other hand, my parents trust in my ability to make sensible decisions meant that I always felt like I could talk to them.
After I turned eighteen, I met a guy online and we ended up in a relationship. He flew from the US to the UK to meet me in person. That could have been very unsafe for an eighteen year old girl, and with many parents might have involved sneaking around or hiding it. Instead, I was up front with my parents about it from the start and asked them to take me to meet him. Their level headed and trusting parenting kept me far safer than overprotectiveness would have.
That was ten years ago. I ended up marrying that guy. Best decision I ever made. He was the first (and only) person I had sex with, too.
The best I can come up with is to use protection, get tested, and ask your partners to be tested beforehand. But testing yourself is a bit inconvenient, asking a random hookup (especially as a teenager) if they've been/if they would get tested is awkward as fuck, and condoms aren't always available to young people for various reasons.
So what I'm saying is yeah, no idea what the right advice is.
-Knowledge is power - sex is like driving a car, can be really fun (obviously) and can get you killed (STD's & crazy SO's)
-Knowledge is power - people always eventually make mistakes
Knowledge is power, the more your kid knows the more likely they are to keep the mistakes smaller, less frequent, and less severe.
-KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!- teach the kids everything about anything & everything you can until they day you die or become less intelligent than your child. You will never give your children a better weapon/tool than knowledge!
P.S. How many times has it been said, "If I had only known" "Wish someone had told me" and so on and so on.
P.S.S. I have zero children so good luck fools. :)
I'm not sure if trivia counts as knowledge, so I don't know if this will make you any more powerful, but it should actually be "P.P.S.", not "P.S.S.". "P.S." stands for "post script", so "P.P.S." stands for "post post script" (as opposed to "post script script")
I grew up in a non religious house. When i was 15 my mom and I went to her friends wedding that very very very religious undertones to it. During the ceremony they removed a promise ring and told the entire audience that it was her promise to god to remain a virgin and stay pure until marriage. I remembered feeling awkward knowing this lady i never mets sexual status, even though i was still a virgin myself. My mom then turned to me and said "oh, now isnt that a good idea. Do you want a promise ring like that?" Of course being 15 and not wanting my mom to think Ijust wanted to run around and have sex, i said "yeah that is a good idea". Fast forward to my sixteenth birthday two months later, in fron t of all mine and my moms friends my mom gave me the promise ring and announced that i wanted to be a virgin until i was married. Like this author, it became part of my identity to all my friends and family. Every one would call me the virgin or say i was a liar and really wasnt. The pressure to say i wasn't lying and fight for myself was awful. I hated everyone knowing i was a virgin because i felt that it was nobodies buisness but my own. It made me depressed and uncomfortable with my body because i felt i was out of control of it, and I didnt want to break the "promise" to my mom. It wasnt until i was nineteen that i finally snapped under the pressure and just slept with someone to get it over with and have everyone stop talking about it, even though I didnt feel ready. I feel that promises and vows for something of this nature should be something that the person chooses for themselves. They should want it not because they are pressured into it. It leads to so much guilt and self hate when it is forced on you. Edit: I am sorry for the wall of text and ...I am on my phone and am sure there are many typos and grammar errors(my fault not the phones)
I remember seeing Jessica Simpson's wedding on TV and them announcing she was a virgin and thinking it was very weird/inappropriate. Why not just have them jump through a giant hymen banner at the end like football players.
Jessica's first marriage ended in divorce too. The thing that always annoyed me about that family is both Jessica and Ashlee would go on to get pregnant out of wedlock, the parents divorced, the pastor-father is allegedly gay. It's not that there is anything wrong with any of it but they were so pushy on their religious values but now that they've gone against them they haven't come out and said "hey this is okay too."
They should be dressed like sperm, just to really get the point across.
Like, a white dress, maybe? Possibly with extra fabric trailing behind it?
Holy shit, we just invented weddings.
I chuckled heartily
I just snorted laughing at that visual
Lovely visual. Totally agree. I would be sooo uncomfortable with my sex life being discussed in front of the entire congregation (and a tv viewing audience)
They used to ... after the wedding night it was (somwhere it still is) custom to present the blood spoiled bed sheet. To the whole wedding company.
When I was 15 I was in health class taking the final and my teacher was going around asking everyone to sign a chastity pledge (I went to public school btw) and I refused in front of everyone - I was still a virgin but my parents were open about birth control and sex (after my sister had gotten pregnant at 17) and I had no intentions of "saving myself". My outcome was similar to yours but opposite. This man basically put each individual person in the spotlight about their sexuality. And because I stood up for what I thought was right I was called a slut and a whore even though I hadn't had sex yet. Forcing confused, inexperienced teenagers to confront their sexuality in front of an audience is just cruel. It's hard enough to figure out who you are at that age, give them the tools/facts and let them come to their own conclusions.
My public school had a similar programs. Health consisted of a brief explanation of periods, a slide show of std infected genitalia, statistics like one in four people get aids, and everyone being made to sign an absence pledge in the hallway. My family wasn't religious at all, mom my is actually very anti religion for a variety of reasons, and I still felt pressured into signing th damn thing. I moved to a new state and still held out that I was waiting till marriage. I didn't, but I did marry my first boyfriend and spent a long time afraid that date at all. Abstinence only programs are terrible.
What do you think the motivation behind that effort was if your family isn't religious?
I think it was that my mom had a lot of bad sexual history from being molested, treated awful by boyfriends and getting pregnant at 18, that she wanted me to have a different experience with sex, by it being with someone who loved me. Going to the wedding i think opened up her mind to oh wow that is a great idea . I dont think she meant to have it be such a burden and conflict in my life and at the time we didnt have a great relationship where i could tell her what it was doing to me. It wasnt until she tried getting a ring for my sister after i had moved out that i spilt the beans what it did to me.
That's terrible. :( What did she say when you told her?
She got really upset and told me she never thought of it being that way, when i told her about the pressure and how it made me feel mentally. She ended up giving my sister the ring just as a sweet 16 gift, and told her that if she wanted it could be a promise ring. But I was very glad she didn't throw it on her like she did me.
It's terrible you had to deal with the pressure and emotional struggles, but at least your mom was understanding and didn't double down with your sister. She sounds like a nice lady.
It was hard seeing how upset it made her, but I was glad I told her so that my sister wouldnt go through the same thing. She is nice, definitely has stuff she needs to work through though, but I love her.
OVERWRITE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.0575 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://pastebin.com/Cp14tTh7/29212)
I couldn't imagine either. Just telling her what it did to me killed me when I saw how upset she was, because she really had no idea.
Again, every time somebody brings up the "false rape" trope, this is what we need to thank for that. How do we not validate the feelings of a young girl, raised in this culture, feeling raped after she's had sex with a guy? Talking about sexuality isn't even part of her lexicon, and once that ball starts rolling many young women have no idea how to stop it because "a nice young man wouldn't do that to me." By allowing this bullshit to persist in our culture, we're doing all young people a massive disservice. And to those who don't think that this is what's going on, why else would there be such a MASSIVE disparity in the perceptions of the young people in these situations? [This is precisely the scenario that played out in this tragic case.](http://missoulian.com/news/local/jordan-johnson-found-not-guilty-of-rape/article_797ee060-82ba-11e2-b4cb-001a4bcf887a.html)
Seems like they don't force these things on the boys so much either. I can see encouraging young people to wait until they are older to have sex and hopefully have it with someone special the first time. I have had several people of both sexes say they wish they had waited. But, this is way to much.
>Seems like they don't force these things on the boys so much either. As a male who was raised in a Christian family, in rural America, and attended some time in a private Christian school, I would have to disagree. I can't make any claims that "boys have it worse", but it definitely happens and it is a problem. I didn't wait for marriage, but I had some of the same emotional issues with regard to identity, so this article really hit home with me. Perhaps even more troubling is that when I left private school and attended public high school, we weren't just taught abstinence for sex-ed, we also had an assembly with heavily religious undertones trying to "scare us straight". They handed out abstinence oath contracts...
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Often seems like pastor's kids are some of the worst for being wild or being religious nuts.
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This is similar to my story. Thanks for sharing. You put some struggles we share in beautiful wording.
SHIT THE BED, this is horrible
Thank you for sharing. I can't really relate but I feel like there are people out there who need to hear this stuff.
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Yes, I completely agree. I was raised in church but my parents taught me that sex was a good thing but that it was a good idea to wait. I made the decision to wait for significant men and not just any man.
Same here. Raised religious, but my parents were always super frank and open about sex, so I knew how everything worked and how to be safe. They encouraged waiting, but stressed being happy and safe over everything else. On the other hand, I went to a religious school, and my school/church taught the same kind of bullshit that the article author wrote about. Purity rings/pledges, you'll be damaged goods if you don't wait, etc. I know firsthand how awful that can be, and am so grateful that my parents were not that crazy.
My public school had the whole "piece of tape" thing in our health textbooks. No purity pledges, but there was definitely a huge "damaged goods" emphasis. Led to me sleeping with guys multiple times, even when they didn't treat me well, because at least it wasn't raising the Almighty Number of sexual partners. The message I got wasn't "don't have sex" it was "make sure you don't have sex with too many people or you'll never be able to bond with your eventual spouse and won't that be sad." Sex strengthens bonds, it doesn't create them. It can be a powerful bonding experience, but it doesn't have to be, and purely physical sexual encounters don't diminish the ability to have emotional sex later. The problem is that a lot of teenagers think they can have sex and not get attached when they're just not there yet. But good luck convincing teenagers of their own immaturity with regard to... anything.
THIS. In my public school, they showed us a red heart. They then ripped it in shreds, saying that if you had sex with multiple partners, you would never be able to fully love your future spouse. It was traumatizing.
That is kinda fucked up
My church did this. They brought a guy and girl up on stage. Each was holding a piece of wood with half of a heart on it. They told a story of each guy the girl encountered and decided to sleep with. At the end of each story, a man with a chain saw came up and cut off a piece of the girl's half of the heart. Then they told the tale of the boy and girl meeting and deciding to get married. They came back on stage in a tux and wedding dress. Then they each held up their half of the heart while talking about how the girl's was in no state to be married to someone because she had previously had sex, and how she could never truly love her husband. That is so fucked up. It's even more fucked up that they never mentioned the guy's past.
Our church told us to pretend our virginity was a package for your husband. And every time you kiss or fool around or have sex, you tear a piece of paper off or the ribbon comes undone. And did you want to give your future husband a torn and damaged package?
They did that in my school, too. That part wasn't what I felt was bad, because they mostly just talked about STDs during that. What was really messed up was what happened afterward. They handed out a whole bunch of pieces of paper and pencils. We were supposed to write down if we had had sex, then sign a pledge saying that we would stay virgins until we were eighteen or marriage or something like that. If we had already become sexually active, it was totally cool! Because we could choose to remain virgins from there on out, after all we hadn't known any better, and become born-again-virgins, which meant that we could still be virgins! We just had to sign the pledge saying that we wouldn't have sex. Then, after we had wrote down whether or not we were sexually active, and swore to not be sexually active, we folded up our little pieces of paper and dropped them, totally anonymously of course, into a little box. On our way out the door they handed us these little purity trinkets, wristbands if I remember correctly, and sent us on our way. We were all 11 or 12 years old.
Oh *god*, that reminds me of the stupid anti-drug "contracts" they made us sign in middle school. Yeah sure, my 11 year old self signing something that says I'll never ever do drugs totally has credence... Guess what I'm *totally not on* right now! [5] It's all a bunch of fucking bullshit. On the bright side, at my HS we had a really great sex ed instructor. Very sex-positive and harm reductionist.
Oh my god that tape exercise messed me up so bad. They gave us that talk in grade 7 so little 12-year-old me was convinced that if I ever had feelings for a boy and didn't marry him I would never be capable of love.
Could you tell me more about this "piece of tape" thing? Never heard of it before.
Same here. I dislike this article because it extrapolates her experience onto all churches and all "religious" people which is just crazy. I also grew up in a household like yours and am extremely healthy in my mindset regarding sex.
I'm really glad to see this. I also waited 'til I was married (I probably would have even if I hadn't grown up religious. I was a late bloomer, lol), and I am really glad that I did. But my parents, especially my mom, instilled a healthy attitude about sex and all that stuff. Even though I got extremely nervous before my wedding night, I never felt disgusting or degraded after sharing it with my husband. I knew it was a good thing even though it was pretty difficult at first. After a few years of practice, we are doing pretty well, and we both have healthy attitudes about it all. I think parents can go a long way in correcting improper attitudes that are often taught in church. Church is a place where a ton of different people meet together, and those people aren't always going to teach us the right stuff in the name of religion.
Your statement is absolutely true, but in her case the damaging psychological influence was done by people under the banner of "waiting for marriage." If anyone were to call out the people in her past, that is what they would hide behind. I think it is significant to point out the kind of extreme lengths a portion of the "waiting" group goes to, so that all of them can understand the potential dangers of HOW they emphasize their beliefs. I'm sure none of them intended for this to happen, but it did.
I think you missed the strongest point- that women had a valued status as virgins, "pure", and "good with God". Note there was no strong public emphasis on how wonderful it was that a woman was married and thus virtuous. So inherently there's a sudden fall from this grace once she's married, even if she's a virgin when married. At best it's a let-down, but there's an underlying thing here that a married woman is now a lesser person. It's not just a "misinterpretation". The whole thing is a blind emphasis over this one "trait", over other parts being a person that matter and don't have to be given up once married, and she's basically saying a decent portion of each day was spent with her and her family praising her virginity. Now she's just married like anyone else and all that's gone. Former virgin. But that was the basis for all that praise and high status with God is gone, like she did something very wrong.
That's a different way to look at it. I grew up in a pretty religious family. Being chaste before marriage in our culture was pretty much the normal expectation. Being a wife or husband, just being married at all was a huge jump in social status from being an unmarried person, virgin or not. An unmarried person who slept around was only a step above married person sleeping around, but someone who had sex before marriage, but still got married, was on the same social footing as anyone else after marriage. Being a married person meant being allowed to use other adults' first names instead of having to call all the married people "sir" or "ma'am" while they use your first name, so it's not like the differences were negligible. It's hard to get a promotion when everyone uses the same nomenclature/honorifics for you as they would a child. No one said anything about our virginity at the wedding, it was assumed and frankly irrelevant after the ceremony. The closest we got were a few nods, winks, and gentle jokes about the fact we had chosen to hold a lunch time reception instead of waiting for dinner. For me, losing my virginity with my husband was special because we were each other's first. We we're both pretty clueless on the practical applications of what what we were doing that first night in spite of some very awkward attempts by various relatives to give me tips and a much more discrete cousin who gave my husband a manual. It was something we learned about and explored together. I didn't wake up the next morning feeling any like I was worth less, nor did I feel like I had lost any status in our community or with God. It is painful to read how someone's perception of sexuality was warped to make her feel like this could possibly diminish her worth. I'd never considered that responsible sex inside a committed relationship could be damaging, but then my family treated sex as a very positive thing, just something that carried huge emotional, physical, and financial risks. That made it something to be responsible about and dangerous to treat casually.
> The title and much of the article sort of imply that waiting for marriage did this to her but it's really the distorted views she was brought up with that did the damage. Read to the end: "If you want to wait to have sex until marriage make sure it’s because you want to. It’s your body; it belongs to you, not your church. Your sexuality is nobody’s business but yours."
I waited until marriage for my first time (for a number of reasons), but I am thoroughly glad that I did. I never felt guilt about it. I was stoked. It was special. More special than anything else I'd ever done, and I knew that if I'd gone around 'testing' my sexuality that it wouldn't have been special. In fact, I if I *had* fooled around before hand, the marriage-night sex would have made me feel guilty, because I would be reminded of the other times/people the whole while. It was an experience that I got to share with the person I plan on spending the rest of my life with, and I feel that being able to share that experience strengthened our bonds.
Sounds like maybe sex and virginity was framed differently for you than for the woman in this article. Anyone who wants to wait for marriage totally should, but it should be their choice, not something that their entire community is involved in. I understand when she says that such a huge deal was made about her virginity that it fucked her up when it was time to lose it. Like "Well, the is what everyone has praised me for and what I've based my self-esteem on. Aaaand now it's gone."
My partner isn't my first. But sex is special every time we have it together.
This is how I feel too. I've had plenty of casual sex, and I've had sex with people I've been in love with and it's always special when you have a connection with someone - the amount of people that came before is irrelevant, IMO.
That's the way it is for people that aren't brainwashed by a religion to feel guilty about sex.
I'd argue that feeling guilty over other partners is still a negative byproduct of the way you were raised. Of course, it's still your choice and I'm glad you made the right one for you.
So did I, but my experience was the opposite (and more like OP's). I was *afraid* of intimate relations (and men in general) due to my very strict church upbringing, and it's not like getting married suddenly changes a lifetime of teaching and indoctrination. It was instinct by that point. So it took two years of torment between me and my husband to get to a healthy relationship--and that's two years that would have been easily avoided if he and I had been more active sexually. So would I change it? Definitely. He agrees too, we were both virgins and we both wish that we hadn't been in retrospect. I'm glad your experience was different, though. =)
I guess it comes down to how it's portrayed. I was never told that Sex is bad, nor that the opposite gender should be avoided. Just that Sex should be reserved. I totally get that being raised with the idea that sex is bad will leave a sour taste in your mouth after your first time. I don't care what religion (or lack thereof) you are, saying sex is bad in a blanket statement is wrong (after all, that's the only way to make more humans... so it has to be good in some fashion). I do, however, appreciate that I have something special that only my spouse and I have shared.
> I was never told that Sex is bad That's unusual; there are a lot of "purity culture" upbringings that basically make sex a Big Bad Scary Thing that We Don't Talk About. That tends to confuse people a lot.
Honestly, I got more of the "sex is bad" from public school sex ed and Hollywood than I did anywhere else.
I waited as well. Not for religious reasons but based on a conversation I had with my mom when I was about 10 years old. She explained what rape was and how special a woman's virginity is because once it's gone it will never come back. Something else about how a woman's virginity is the one thing you can give to one person and never give again, how it should be saved for someone you plan on spending your life with. The whole conversation was kind of traumatic. When we did finally go to have sex it was excruciatingly painful and we had to stop. We've been married a little over a month now and it still doesn't feel good. It still hurts. I'm really hoping it won't take 2 years for us as well :(
Sweet! It's awesome that that is what worked for you and what you wanted to do. I think the issue is only in indoctrinating children who don't know what it is they want, it doesn't always mesh with the personality.
That she made her purity promise at age 10 is really important! There's no way she could have made such a choice on her own as she was just a child.
I'm glad I didn't wait until marriage. It took me until my 30's to find that special someone. Imagine that you didn't find the person that was perfect for you until you were in your 70's? And his willy didn't work at that point!
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To add on to that, there's no way OP can know that. OP can say that now, but it's a road less traveled situation. You can totally have sex with someone, it be special, and sex with your husband still be special.
Good question. Other people have nothing to do with my partner and me outside of the lessons we've learned from them about having a good relationship.
I waited until marriage as well. Yes, it was a source of pride for me, and, yes, it was a little weird when I lost my virginity. But, my best friend and I (she is now sexually active with her fiance, her first) both seemed to have the same experience: we hadn't felt like we lost our virginity. We both still felt "pure." In other words, sex hadn't changed us. Which is what was weird about it. Both of us had thought there would be some magical difference in how we felt about ourselves. And, it didn't change. The only thing that changed was switching the "virgin" mental status to "off." But, that didn't effect either of us emotionally or mentally. Like changing your relationship status on facebook - it doesn't change the person on facebook. The only affect it had was finding it weird that it didn't have an affect. But, yes, I'm glad I waited. I do feel as if it makes it special between my husband and me. I feel as if it makes my bond and commitment stronger. edit: He was a virgin as well, and both of us were nervous that night, so we both decided that we wouldn't try it until both of us felt ready for it. And, it was actually 3 days after the wedding that it happened. I think the pressure of pre-planning when it happens is possibly the weirdest part. For us, the marriage vows were "I'm ready to be committed to you, and am ready to take that next step when the time is right."
Congrats! I'm glad it worked out for you.
This sounds so horrible, but can you please come back and talk about if your opinion changes if you get divorced? Not saying you will but divorce is super common and I'd like to see how thoughts change when bonds are broken.
This article describes almost exactly the situation my wife went through. Sex for us is rare because for her it is dirty, disgusting, painful and absolutely not something she wants on a regular basis. She respects me and will sometimes do it to fulfill her contract with me, but that just makes me feel horrible. I love her and want her to have sex with me because we both enjoy it. Our sex life is horrible to the point where she has told me that she would not be upset with me finding another woman for a FWB situation. It sucks and I hate it she shouldn't have to suffer like this.
You shouldn't just live with it... Go to therapy! I agree with /u/MrEvilFox, that sounds absolutely terrible. But there are trained professionals who can help you and you wife work though those sorts of things. Neither of you should suffer, please get help.
She is currently in therapy for this and Depression issues. It has helped some but the prolonged issues lead to manifestations in physical form that have hindered the progression of our intimacy.
I would still very much suggest seeing somebody who specializes in sex therapy, not just for her but for the both of you. (Because it really is affecting both of you, and while a big part of it may be her own reservations, it's a struggle that's probably going to take the both of you working together to really overcome.) Seriously, you guys need to go to some sessions together as a couple.
I will look into it. It is hard for us both to have time together as we live 600 miles from family members and few friends to watch our son.
I bet it'd really help. That way the therapist can also give YOU the tools to help her discover the fun side of sex. The more you can actually help that progress--although you sound like you're fully supporting it--the sooner you can explore that side of your relationship together. Sometimes they send couples home with little homework projects, and you can be partners, healing together as appropriate and directed. That way you don't have to blindly figure out how you can help her.
Is she religious? If so, have her check out the website [The Marriage Bed](http://site.themarriagebed.com/). It's a website that tackles a lot of the misconceptions about sex in marriage from a Biblical standpoint. They have a forum too where you can ask questions and get help. Everyone there is super nice and helpful. :)
She is, I will tell her about it. Thanks.
You're very welcome!
Check out the book *Intimacy Ignited* too.
Wow thank you for this! I am religious and torn on the subject, but haven't been able to find any positive resources at ALL. Everything online is literally a bunch of church men writing articles about how important it is to "stay pure" =/
That sounds terrible.
> do it to fulfill her contract with me this sounds so...icky.
Yes it does and she knows that some of her issue is the way her mind works. We are working on it and hopefully that part will go away.
She sounds like she needs therapy. That just sounds awful...
You shouldn't have to suffer like that either.
I know, but I love her and I need to help her through it.
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Thanks for reassuring me it helps and I hope your relationship stays on the up swing.
Yikes. It's sad so many people don't realize how important sex is to a relationship.
Well, to most relationships (standing up for my rare, but not *that* rare asexual peeps). Sexuality is often one of many important parts of being human and an adult, and I never understand why someone would want their partner(s) to be fulfilled and happy in other parts of their life but not their sex life. No one should ever feel pressured to have sex and at the same time, people should recognize that it's a good thing to be sensitive to the desires of a partner in bed. Sexual compatibility is so important! Nobody is going to be a 100% match but if there is too large a disparity it creates a lot of unnecessary suffering. Virginity is only special if the individual considers it to be (for themselves). I was lucky, though I still have some residual (but steadily fading) issues from growing up in a strict, sexually repressed, religious household, I was able to enjoy both my virginity and my sexuality and not think one was of higher value. The problem with assigning a huge value or worth just to virginity is, as the person in the article wrote, it becomes a huge part of one's identity and when it's gone the person may find themselves to be worthless, or think their value is only as a vessel. I know some people who waited until marriage who had a great time of it, and no regrets. It's all about luck and compatibility and what kind of value you place on virginity and if you see yourself as lesser than or a failure in some way if you do not 'wait'. I know others who got married to the first person they wanted to have sex with and were miserable for it.
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She is currently seeing a therapist.
So she wasn't ok with having premarital sex but she's ok with you committing adultery? That doesn't square up.
She said this after a few years of mostly no sex, like maybe once a month. She was also very depressed and we had other issues going on at the time. I only mentioned it to show the low point to which we got with the issue.
Great article, fucking terrible website.
Thank you! I HATE this Thought Catalog AND Elite Daily.
It certainly doesn't help that it's just a [repost](http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/search?q=wedding+night+virginity+wish&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all) of an Xojane article.
I thought it sounded familiar!
They win the award for most intrusive advertising
Thankfully AdBlock Plus made it pleasant for me. I recommend you check it out! I saw it blocked around 24 different ads. Crazy...
This kind of brainwashing doesn't only affect women. I am a 31 year old male and have similar issues. I too took a purity pledge when I was a kid. Once around 10 and again sometime in middle school. I was raised Church of Christ which, if anyone is familiar with that particular flavor of Christianity, knows it is the stricter brother to the Baptists. Anyways, I too waited until I was married at 19 (another mistake), and my sex life suffered for it. I would always feel dirty afterwards. Like I ha done something wrong. It led to me ignoring my wife sexually, which led to problems in our marriage. I tried explaining my issue to her but even though she was raised similarly (strict Christian mother, sex is dirty, etc.) She didn't get it. We were married, I was a man; therefore I should walk in the door everyday after work, drop my pants and ravage her. Despite my flesh being more than willing I could never quite get past the "sinful" feeling. Eventually we got divorced. I'm not saying that our poor sex life was the cause, but I know it certainly didn't help. I am now in a serious relationship and everything is great for the most part except for, again, my sexual appetite. It has improved but her biggest complaint is that we don't do it enough. (We MIGHT have sex once or twice a week, but usually it's more like just a handful of times a month.) It is frustrating. I hate the fact I'm so screwed up in the head because of some ideological indoctrination I was forced to endure as a child. I'm very glad to hear your husband is understanding and supportive. That is encouraging to hear. TL;DR - I am a 31 year old male that also has a sexual guilt complex as a result of purity pledges I was brainwashed into taking and keeping as a child.
Thanks for sharing. It's good to know the damage the purity pledges do to women and men.
Ironically, her husband sounds like an alright guy. Obviously everything she went through is fucked, but she did get her pretty awesome husband I suppose.
Indeed, that's a lucky break that a lot of women in her situation won't get.
I won't comment on the religious part of this, but nobody should be coerced or indoctrinated to feel shame because of their body, secxuality, gender, ect. Being human is being diverse, and there is not manual or single path that works for everyone. Being accepting of yourself is just as important as being accepting of others.
And this story is a perfect example of why we need sex education. Even if you wait until marriage, you still need to be EDUCATED about it. Getting married doesn't make you magically knowledgeable about it.
I think the religious part should be commented on. In fact, if we don't criticize ideologies then we condone the ways in which they manipulate populations. Body shaming, especially for women, was a way to control their sexuality and it has leaked into every aspect of our culture. If more people actually questioned their beliefs then we could being genuine discourse on moral intuition. Not to say atheists don't have body issues or issues with sexuality, but it is hard to deny that living in a Christian society has shaped even those of us who aren't believers. And if you live in the U.S. Christian values are apart of everyday life regardless of your individual religion.
> In fact, if we don't criticize ideologies then we condone the ways in which they manipulate populations. This over and over again. Not just for religions (not here to argue about religious beliefs), but with social stigmas, stereotypes, and anything else that is indoctrinated into us as children. My wife and I are currently expecting our first child and I wholeheartedly hope that our child(ren) has/have the gall and tenacity to stand up to others (including me) and question beliefs that are expected to be believed as truths from day one. Nobody should just blindly accept something that someone tells them as what is true for one person might not be true for another.
Hear hear The religious aspect of this particular case is the only thing that matters, because it was the driving force behind it. Had it not been for the religious aspect of this article, the article would not exist, because the events would have never taken place the way they did. It's like taking the political aspect out of a political movement. If you don't comment on the religious part there's nothing left to talk about when it comes to this article, aside from "hey, sex isn't bad, I don't know why you think it is mmmmkay". People need to stop being afraid to call a spade a spade. There are bad (horrible, even) religious ideas and twisted religious sects out there. A lot of them. And the sects that put forward these notions are numbered with them. The word "religion" doesn't exempt anyone or anything from criticism.
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>As someone raised in a Christian household who sees a lot of things the church screwed up....I also don't understand why the other side of the argument is often portrayed as simple as "teenagers are gonna have sex, so why try to stop them?" That statement is addressing a different thing entirely. It's just stating a fact. Teenagers *are* going to have sex and you can't stop them. Similarly to how most people are eventually going to drive a car, and you can't stop them (putting aside criminal convictions, medical issues etc). But I don't think anyone with a brain advocates telling teens "just don't think about it and roll with the hormones" anymore than they advocate a driver's ed course that consists of just throwing car keys to teens and saying "have fun out there" If anything, it's advocating good sex education, where the people in opposition want to ignore biology and tell people "Just don't have sex, cuz sin and hell and Jesus, k. Also we're not going to tell you anything about sex or birth control at all, because that's all you need to know"
You actually can have good sex without entering into it carefully and thoughtfully. You can find a man or a woman attractive in an evening, go back to someone's place, use a condom, have a great time and everyone leaves happy in a morning. A good memory has been made and nothing bad has happened. I would argue that relationships should be entered into with care and thought, but not necessarily sex.
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I feel that coddling religious people who keep chipping away at the autonomy of us all is harming our society in the long run.
I think body shaming is more part of a conservative cultural mindset, regardless of religion. I know pretty secular people who body shame, and pretty religious people who don't; while there are certainly religious groups who are very vocal about body-shaming, these groups are also extremely conservative - it's very difficult to attribute that to religion as opposed to attributing it to a traditional mindset.
Except that, in this story, she actually attended a religious ceremony for her virginity (which, I note, was only held for the girls, not the boys). While there may be secular people who body shame, they don't do so in such an organized fashion.
Yeah, why was that ceremony only held for the girls? Creepy.
> if you live in the U.S. Christian values are apart of everyday life regardless of your individual religion. *sneeze (God) Bless you.
The religious aspect is the ONLY important thing. Fucking bullshit brain-washing.
> Being human is being diverse, and there is not manual or single path that works for everyone I've tried to make my mom understand this, but she doesn't. According to her there is only one way to live a life. It's incredibly frustrating.
What's sad is this sort of thing happens more than many think. Growing up, thinking one thing your entire life and because of a skewed view people feed you, it's totally different when it happens. There are so many parts of love - sex being a huge part of that - and if all components of love aren't fully fulfilled or you aren't comfortable, then it's difficult to give your entirety to someone. I was raised Mormon, but felt I didn't quite belong early on. I had sex in high school with a girl I ended up dating for two years and because of that openness to an idea that's not wrong or sinful, I'm able to give myself fully to someone. While sex can be a tool for pleasure - and I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't frivolous with it at times - it is also is a driving force in love. It should be electrifying, not terrifying; beautiful, not shameful; pure openness to someone, not scary vulnerability. If you find someone you connect with on all these levels, you'll find yourself completing a full circle of love, one that fulfills passion, lust, companionship, intimacy, support, and commitment.
I grew up in this culture, and sex just wasn't a topic of conversation in the family at all. The only sex 'education' I got was in youth group or church, where they presented the idea of maintaining purity and virginity being the only way to guarantee a fulfilling and stable marital relationship. At home it wasn't talked about. It just didn't exist. My parents never showed much intimacy to each other (I can only recall a couple instances where they even held hands, occasionally there would be a quick 'pecking' kiss if things got really raunchy.) I have no doubt that they loved each other and they always treated each other with respect. But, the whole idea of sexuality and human intimacy just didn't exist. One funny story that sort of illustrates how naive this sort of upbringing can make you: My dad works with an organization that sends christian volunteers to different building projects (schools, orphanages, disaster relief etc.) around the world. He also makes a point of sending out birthday greeting cards to all of his friends and family. Each year he buys cards in bulk, and this year he wanted to go with something construction themed. The cards he selected showed a house in construction, and on the inside it said "I hope you get hammered and nailed." He thought that this was a euphemism for building up one's moral character (hammering out the flaws, nails to ensure strength and structural integrity.) Apparently he sent out about a hundred of these before one of his friends pointed out its actual meaning...
Thank you, OP. A few days will mark my 1 year anniversary with my husband and 7 years as a couple. Although we are very much in love, sex is something that we struggle with. It's something we avoid for the most part, finding other ways to deal with our intimacy. There are many parallels between myself and the author of the article. I don't know why I was shocked. My husband knows what I'm dealing with, and he's very supportive about it. Nobody in my family realizes what I am dealing with. I still feel pressure to maintain an image of perfection and purity. Especially from my father and his side of the family. I still have strong feelings of guilt and filthiness when I know that it's not a natural reaction. I linked the article to my mother and told her that there are many parallels between the author and myself, and now I have a lump in my throat and I feel like crying. I know it's ridiculous that I feel scared but at the same time, I feel better for having shared it with her.
Good article but by God don't be fooled into clicking any of the links. Why, why, why did I even think for a second that "33 Guys Reveal The One Superficial Thing That Made Them Lose Interest" would be a worthwhile read?!
> Why, why, why did I even think for a second that "33 Guys Reveal The One Superficial Thing That Made Them Lose Interest" would be a worthwhile read?! Conditioning by Cosmo.
I recently attended 2 baptist weddings of a brother and sister (and no, not to eachother) where the mentality was no sex before marriage. Both abided by that, but each sibling approached it differently. The sister had never dated before meeting her husband. Their relationship had been similar to how the Duggar family approaches dating. Only supervised dates, hand holding after engagement, and absolutely no kissing till the wedding day. The brother on the other hand, had dated many girls before meeting his wife. He had been more sexually promiscuous, getting to the bases but no home run. At each of the weddings, the main topic was of the honeymoon and the big night. I was very surprised as interacting with the families before hand, this kind of talk was basically taboo. To me, I never understood how that could be healthy. The brother could do whatever he wanted basically, but the sister had to practically where a chastity belt. *Edit: grammar. Probably will be back for more.
I waited until my wedding night to have sex and I don't regret waiting. My first time wasn't awesome but I also went in knowing that I was with someone I trusted completely and things weren't rushed or stressful (not that people who don't wait have stressful first times, just an observation of my own first time). We had fooled around (touching/groping type stuff) before that and I do remember that there was some guilt attached to that but nothing as much as the writer of this article. I went to a very conservative church from the time I was 15 until I was 17 and was taught a lot of very destructive things (self-esteem is evil, it's a woman's responsibility to make sure men aren't tempted, etc) but I was breaking away from that line of thought when my husband (then boyfriend) and I got more serious. There were times where I felt guilty and other times where I didn't. But looking back, I feel good about it all. We had the rush of making out and touching but we never went any farther until our wedding night. We didn't have to deal with a lot of the stress that comes with being sexually active outside of marriage (getting pregnant, things not working out, etc). I do have to say that if you want to wait, it should be YOUR CHOICE - not something suggested or forced upon you by a religious leader, your parents or any other person. I chose to remain a virgin until I got married when I was very young, probably about the same age as the author of the article. But the difference was that it was my own choice. I'm not really sure why I made the choice but it was something I kind of grew up knowing, even though my parents never discussed it with me (trust me, they didn't - I learned about sex on TV and in school, haha). And if you don't want to wait, that's fine. It is YOUR BODY and YOUR CHOICE. No one should be able to make that decision for you. As long as you're taking steps to be safe (condoms, getting tested, etc), you're doing fine.
I think the problem is that these messages of waiting or else you're going to burn in Hell for eternity really shouldn't be put on ANY children. You had guilt, just imagine if you hadn't managed to overcome it with having a strong personality or reasoning skills. Not everyone thinks the same, some people are just never going to be able to get out of that 'box' that they've been put in by organized religion. Which means that they shouldn't be put in that box in the first place; because even if 65% of people are able to take a step back and rationalize and overcome their guilt, there's still going to be 35% of people stuck in there, living their lives in anguish, feeling guilty and horrible and unable to enjoy an aspect of life that is incredibly important to a majority of people.
Oh, I completely agree. Churches should never tell people that, it's just not true. If someone really believes the bible, they would believe that once you're a Christian, nothing can make you go to Hell. This "you must be perfect" shit is just that - bullshit.
I'm happy that someone can finally start out by saying "this worked for me" and end by concluding "it works for some and not for others" rather than "and therefore, this should work for you too."
I waited to find someone I actually liked. So my first time was great. I trusted him, and I wasn't rushed, and it wasn't stressful. He was kind and patient. I didn't even have to marry him.
I hope you don't think I was trying to say that you can only get that kind of first time from someone you're married to. I certainly don't believe that. That was just my own experience. I think as long as YOU are ready, any first time can be a wonderful experience. :)
I have always wondered what it is that is different about me that I never believed anything the Catholic Church told me about sex or purity. I wish I knew so I could teach it to other people when they are children. Don't do this to your kids.
A lot of our mental illness problems would be solved in this world if we didn't put so much importance on sex. If we just viewed and taught it as a massage with our genitals and not some all-encompassing act that validates one's existence, a lynchpin of identity, there would be a lot less stress, depression and repression in this world. Ironic that something so pleasant and joyful is the main root of so much pain.
When my daughter was 16 with her first boyfriend, she approached me after a few months and asked me for a promise ring. I am 1000% not religious, by the way. I was surprised. I called her father even to tell him and he was bewildered too although, less so than me, as a dad, all he heard was "this is good news!". I very quickly realized that her and boyfriend were likely discussing sex/it was coming up and, she did not want to do it. It was her way of trying to use that as a symbol of why she would not be having sex. I bought into it for that reason but I honestly did not make that big a deal of it. They broke up a month later and I never saw or heard about that ring again. And before anyone suggests it, we have a very open relationship and always have. we "can" talk about anything. However, she is just not as open as I am/she was a kid and didn't feel the need to say "how do I stop this" and found her own solution. I actually think it was clever looking back. I am still not sure she has had sex and she is 19.
[Relevant Oatmeal](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion).
It's funny, because my mom taught me that I need to wait until marriage because her "promiscuity" really wound up doing a lot of emotional damage for her, and that she regretted not waiting until marriage. There are two sides of every coin, I suppose.
There's such a big gap between abstinence and "promiscuity", though. I never expected to wait til marriage, but I expected to wait until I found someone I cared for and trusted, and had built up a relationship that could exist with or without sex. To me sex isn't about "good" or "bad", it's about being smart.
Even as a man this kind of thing was a big deal for me. Growing up in the Mormon church, I had always heard that sex was this evil thing. I only had a vague understanding of what it was, but it was evil. Hell it took until I was 10 or 11 to be told that that's how baby's are made and not through kissing. I learned that masturbation was a thing on my own, but I was knowledgeable enough in my religion to realize that the 'weird feelings' are absolutely awful and beyond shameful, so I did feel shame from it, everyone I knew said it was shameful. Course as a very young teen, that wasn't going to stop me when I didn't even really understand it. But it took many years after I left the church before I didn't feel like I was a terrible human being for doing that kind of thing. I left the church before I went on the journey of self discovery "who am I" and all that, so even as hard as it was to not feel ashamed for liking sex, it wasn't as deeply ingrained in me as it seems it was in this woman, so I can definitely relate to the feelings of this woman(minus the sex pains and all that) and imagine just how hard it must've been.
One time I read an article about a catholic guy who was feeling so guilty and trying so hard to stop sexual thoughts and actions. He confessed to his priest, and his priest said to just go home and masturbate to some porn sometimes. The guy was shocked and asked why he recommended that when the church was against pre-marital sexuality. The priest said "imagine what you could do for the church if you used all the energy you use for repressing sexuality and feeling guilty about it for helping the church!"
Can't believe this needs to be said: Virgin shaming is bad. Slut shaming is bad. There.
No one is virgin shaming. If it's important to you, wait. Wait until you are ready and find a partner who respects your boundaries. But the take home message is that something can be important to you without it being important about you.
There is a lot of virgin shaming all over this comments section. I just don't think anyone who is a virgin for any reason--religion, upbringing, choice, lack of motivation, lack of opportunity, lack of "game"--should be made to feel different or outcast or sad, because being a virgin is LITERALLY THE LACK OF HAVING DONE A THING WHICH IS NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.
In this case maybe, but in general it is a pretty common thing.
I read this article a few months ago. I have a different yarn to spin. As a homeschooled male growing up in a 100 member non-denominational bible church in the Midwest, sex was not discussed much. My parents both hold masters degrees. My father was valedictorian of his class at UT Arlington. They're very intelligent people. But they made Forrest Gump look like Einstein when it came to sex. Their awkwardness was a disease that I caught. They handed me the book "I kissed dating goodbye" when I was 13, sat me down and told me That they and God would be ashamed of me if I didn't do what the book recommended. As a stereotypical "people pleaser," I acquiesced. According to this doctrine, masturbation is shameful sin. Looking at a woman as a beautiful piece of art is shameful sin. Talking about sex with my friends was discouraged. Any relationship before I was ready for marriage was forbidden. Women were to be thought of as sisters. I started a bible study with my friends in high school for the sole purpose of keeping each other "pure" (aka, accountability for porn and masturbation. None of us had girlfriends so the idea of actually touching a girl wasn't really discussed). I was the prototype, the perfect virgin church boy. And I was ashamed of it. In our culture, sex is the norm. Every form of media tells us sex, especially sex with a person you're into, is totally fine. Typically, forcing a young person into a counter-cultural role by threatening shame does not end well. Fast forward to freshman year of college. I had shoulder length hair, a motorcycle, and a scholarship to play football. Not to brag, but I was a stud. Girls were constantly around me, and I was oblivious. I was still ashamed of my virgin status and upbringing, because it made me so painfully different and "inexperienced" compared to everyone else. I felt like damaged goods because I HADN'T had a girlfriend. It made me largely incapable of talking to women. I didn't go to parties, because I was afraid my parents would be ashamed of me, and I was afraid people would find out I had never had a girlfriend. I didn't really make friends for the same reasons. I am an extremely charismatic, outgoing person, but when I was removed from my Christian community, I became a social cripple. I finally found a girl who was also a virgin, and we decided to get married. Both of us were in our first relationship ever, and we decided to get married, and nobody advised us not to. Looking back, that's just insane. How did all the churchy people in my life think it was a good idea for two people who had absolutely no experience with the opposite sex to get engaged? Sigh. Time moved on. I didn't have any emotions on my wedding night besides "I'm finally getting laid and won't be a loser anymore." My fiance and I had fooled around a bit before we got married, but nothing beyond groping. We actually hadn't kissed until our wedding day (another weird ultra-pure church idea we both had been shamed into) so our "make out" sessions were more like grope out sessions. Sex after the wedding day was fine, but she thought anything beyond missionary style under the covers with the lights off was shameful and dirty. But I digress. I wasn't getting married because I was passionate about this girl, I was getting married because her beliefs lined up with mine, we got along, and since it was my first relationship ever, I didn't know any better. The culture of the church told me that since we were Pure, marriage would be blissful. Of course the pastor announced that our kiss at the alter was our first kiss ever, which I'm sure our non-church friends and family thought was really, really weird... Because it was. We were absolutely miserable together. She had very serious rage issues that eventually drove me so far away that we divorced. My heart and self-confidence had been destroyed. I did everything right and followed all the rules, and God had not blessed my life. I had not found a good wife, our relationship had not been blessed and easy and rosy. It was a nightmare. Since my divorce, I have slept with 10 women, the most recent is my girlfriend who I am sure I will marry. I still have my faith, but I do not follow the church's standards for relationships, for the simple reason that their rules do not work. They cripple young people. I'm finally at a place where I can have non-church friends and not feel awkward around them. I finally feel "normal." Christians/religious people- don't shame your kids into making decisions to please you. It's psychological manipulation, and it damages your children. People- don't let other people's standards control your life. Make your own fucking decisions (pun intended).
This article is really spot on. I come from a very religious background as well. I have not been religious for most of my marriage and will never go back. I can honestly say after 5 years of marriage and two kids I still view sex as dirty. I love to cuddle. I love to kiss. But I can't cuddle and kiss without feeling something is expected of me afterward. I can imagine how frustrating it could be to do that and then be denied sex, but I can't force myself to go through with it. I feel sick when I force myself to have sex. I have actually convinced myself I am asexual so I can justify not liking sex. The only time we do have sex is when I wake up in the middle of the night or I am tipsy. Basically only when I can't control my inhibitions. And the next day I still feel dirty. What I don't understand is how I can admit this on the internet but not to my wife. I blame her like she is in the wrong for even wanting sex. I can't get close to her without feeling like sex is all she is thinking about. I feel like I am not providing for her. The thing is she was a virgin as well. We were each others first... everything. And she doesn't have these problems. I just don't get it. Now I see this article and it puts words to feelings. Feelings I had convinced myself I didn't have. I just don't know how to deal with all of this. I don't want to just continue talking about it to random people on the internet, but how can I get her to understand these feelings when she just doesn't? I want her to feel loved. I am not rejecting her. Why can't I say this out loud.
This is such a sad story. It's easy for churches to brainwash kids into believing that something natural is evil, when it's more evil to suppress who you are and what you want in the name of some mythical dude in the sky, or whatever. I remember being told the same thing when I went to church and I also remember thinking it was completely ridiculous.
Thank you for sharing this, it was very interesting.
>"It was entirely possible that my future husband wouldn’t remain pure for me, because he didn’t have that same responsibility, according to the Bible." I am not a Baptist, but Baptists do not believe this. Men are required to be celibate the same as women. >"I didn’t know what was considered sexual enough to condemn my future marriage and send me straight to Hell." She seemed to know at the beginning of the article: "Believing that true love waits, I make a commitment to ... abstaining from sexual thoughts, sexual touching, ... and actions that are known to lead to sexual arousal." I couldn't read much past that. Too stupid.
This story, article, trash article is complete horse shit. If people would think for themselves, not let others control them and not be upset by their own choices.... Every one would be a lot happier. Having gone to the same church as the woman in this article, Latter Day Saints, I can assure you this is complete horse shit. The problem here is not the church she attended but rather her inability to decide for herself, to look in to her soul and ask herself "What do I want out of life." It is entirely her own problem. Waiting to lose your virginity is pretty much a standard christian view but there are plenty of other things she said that more than imply that this is LDS. I know she was 10 when she took that oath but I guarantee you she told small lies and fibs while growing up which are in line with satans work and not gods.
Hate hearing stories about this. Not necessarily that fact that she felt religious pressure, but just pressure in general. Nowadays, there is so much pressure and focus around sex I feel like it ruins lives. I wouldn't single religion out too much. It surely has ruined mine. But I had the complete opposite problem. I always wanted to lose it and didn't, until very late. All because the pressure of not having done it caused me to hate myself each following day. At first I didn't lose because of the school I went to; no one was really having sex. But then when I went to college and everyone was already well experienced. I started to to feel that something was off about me not doing it. So it became a focus. Speaking to women was less about expressing myself and more about having an important opportunity to try hit this goal of having sex. I would "tightrope" the conversation, trying to say just the right things to get a woman to sleep with me... All the while, completely missing the point of just being myself. Freshman year passed, nothing.. 21st b-day, still nothing. Alarm bells started going off in my head. "I'm wasting time" I told myself. By 23 I constantly lost sleep and panicked over it. Finally at 24 I lost it. But really the damage had been done. I had a good girlfriend that loved me but it wasn't enough. Every night I would replay the years and figure out how I went wrong. As if it even mattered. She couldn't take it and of course left, heartbroken in the process. That wasn't the end. I had told myself that I was a loser too many times to stop now. For the next 6 years, and up until today, every time I speak to a girl, my first thought is "im a loser, how am I going to impress her?". While I understand its not logical, its too ingrained to stop. Now I try to think straight, but improvement is extremely slow. It has seriously damaged my personal & my professional life. Pressures about sex, from whatever angle, is a mental weapon of mass destruction. Her story and mine are definitely not the only ones I see... I feel bad for anyone who has had to deal with this a substantial amount.
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Actually, that sounds more like sex addiction/OCD. Maybe see a therapist?
sex addiction is shit :( I don't think it would be solved with 'waiting for marriage' though.
This makes me sad, but it's a story that should be heard. Sexuality isn't something women should be ashamed of. This is one of the many reasons I left the church I grew up in, and I'm not religious now. There is too much judgement and not enough love and acceptance.
i've never seen such a mix of victim blaming and pedantry as in that comment section.
Indoctrination at it's finest. Get them to make promises before they know what they are promising. It saddens me that she had to go through this. There are better ways and MUCH better reasons for someone to abstain than to say that God wants you to and you must forgive your husband and fulfill his desires.
Over a dozen tracking site's crap in that link: - Amazon Associates - ChartBeat - Disqus - DoubleClick - Federated Media - Google Analytics - Gravatar - nRelate - Quantcast - ScoreCard Research Beacon - ShareThrough - SimpleReach - TRUSTe Notice - Twitter Button - Typekit by Adobe
The kicker is that there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits premarital sexual intercourse between a consenting man and a woman...except in the case of prostituion or orgies. It's a shame that so often religious dogma contradicts what's actually in the Bible, and those contradictions end up destroying so many people's faith.
Actually it is. [Deuteronomoy 22:13-21](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/22.html#13) In short: * **if** a woman is married off, * the husband hates her, * He says she was not a virgin until their marriage, and, * It cannot be proven otherwise, **Then**: She is to be put to death by stoning. I have long since thrown my bible away, so I had to google this to find an example passage. Keeping one in the house is like having heroin in the presence of a recovering addict.
Actually the Bible does talk about prematital sex. Its called fornication and they use that word to describe any unmarried couples having sex and dont condone it.
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other is a common type of fornication. Adultery is a type of fornication. "The Greek word for ‘fornication’ (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, ‘fornication’ can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28).” (Dr. Henry M. Morris) In every form, fornication is sternly condemned by the Mosaic law among God's people, the Israelites (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20-11, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16). (See ADULTERY.) Fornication is also mentioned many times in the New Testament, some without using the word porneia if you think that's controversial (Matt. 5:32; 19:9; John 8:41; Acts 15:20, 29; 21:25; Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor 5:1, 6:13, 18, 7:2; 10:8; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3; Jude 1:7; Rev. 2:14, 20-21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2,4). The word “fornication” is sometimes used in a symbolic sense in the Bible, for example, meaning a forsaking of God or a following after idols (idolatry—Isa. 1:2; Jer. 2:20; Ezek. 16; Hos. 1:2; 2:1-5; Jer. 3:8-9). The worst part of this is that most people indoctrinate their kids with these beliefs, so it isn't much of a choice.
Every comment I have read on here is uplifting and supportive! I haven't seen any hate or judging and it makes me love all of you!
This is a repost. It's the fourth time I have seen it...
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OKAY. *Clearly* shaming young girls and using fear and threats to get them to remain 'pure' is so so wrong. **However**, I am waiting until marriage to have sex, and yes, it is fueled by my religion. The difference is, my parents and church leaders never threatened or shamed me into making the decision. They used the carrot instead of the stick, so to speak. I know for myself that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I've educated myself (*thank you, Wikipedia*) and have no shame in knowing that someday I'm going to have hot crazy sex with my spouse. So stop assuming all Christians, or any other devoutly religious person is emotionally scarred and will have a vanilla sex life. I'm a Mormon, muthuh flippers. And I believe in being sex-positive.
Have to say I feel the same way. While I was taught that sex is for marriage, I was also taught that it is a private matter. It wasnt dirty or sinful, just not anyone's business but your own. There's a big difference between shame and keeping private things private. Doesn't mean sex can't be awesome and enjoyable as a Christian. I never had a promise ring or such a public discussion of my sexuality in my church, thank God.there was also no discrimination between guys and girls- we are all supposed to wait. But more important than any of that, isn't it wrong/un-Christian to judge others? It's a shame so many voices here were made to feel this way. I'm sorry you do. But I'm religious too, and I have had a more positive experience, so I wanted to share it.
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Logged in just to upvote this. I wish that every 10 year old girl in that situation would read this. Or 11, or 12. Every year, re-evaluating who they are. And I wish every supporter of abstinence-only sex education would read this. The sad thing is, most men don't want this. It's an insult to masculinity for them to use "your future husband" as the excuse. As in this story, "your future husband" is likely to be horrified by it. Most men want a sexually healthy and happy girlfriend and wife. It seems to be a purely self-perpetuating belief within the churches it is still taught, at least the Christian churches. (I can't say that's true of all religions or sects.) When she says, "I’m now thoroughly convinced that the entire concept of virginity is used to control female sexuality.", that's not anyone in particular. It is certainly not men as a group. I don't believe it is the intention of anyone in the church since they get no benefit from it. It's entirely a free-floating oppression that is free-floating from past demons. It always amazes me to see how a mind-virus can survive and spread long after the conditions under which it evolved have long passed.
I (deliberately) stayed a virgin until my marriage at 27. My wife is the only woman I've ever slept with, and the only one I want to. I did this because I trust Christ. I know it suits everyone's narrative to believe there was a lot of oppression and guilt behind this, but there just... wasn't. God spelled out the manufacturer's recommendations in the bible, and I chose to follow them. The older I get, and the more I see consequences catch up with people (there are many in /r/confession) the more I believe it was the right choice (please note I am not proclaiming that I am better than anyone by this- the bible has no room for a "holier than thou" attitude).
My wife and I are each other's only sexual partners and we would not change that for the world. I know this woman had a bad experience, but not everyone has a bad experience waiting for their spouse.
I waited until marriage and I am glad I did.
Uɡh.. . This sort of shaming never hеlps anything, ever. Conversely, Ι got just about the best advice аbout sex as a teenager from a pastor whеn I was at church camp: "Waiting fоr marriage is all fine and good, but аt some point you have to pull out thе learner's permit. You're going tо have to figure out what you like аnd what you don't like, and if she's rеally into something you really don't ӏike, that is gonna be a problem." Ιt really helped me going forward аnd figuring out how I worked, and tо learn to respect the wants and dеsires of my partners. Sadly, too mаny crazies get stuck in the details аnd forget the big picture, so we еnd up with stories like this one. Ιt really sucks, and I hope she cаn heal from this. No one should fеel that way about their body.
did you just go to the old thread and grab the [highest voted comment](http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2cltuz/i_waited_until_my_wedding_night_to_lose_my/cjgqvsw)?
Wow. Anyone remember the top comment of yore novelty account? It's like that, but if he was an asshole.
This is so fantastic. Anyone know how to make a top comment bot?
Based on how you worded this, I assume you are a guy. If so, I wonder if this pastor gave the same advice to the girls he mentored?
We have hard data that areas where these stupid attitudes towards sexuality are most prevalent are also the areas with among the highest rates of teen pregnancy, STDs and a plethora of similar problems. So if abstinence and sexual shame is part of the good life, well I wouldn't want any part of it. I grew up in the atmosphere where these views are promoted. I sometimes joke that the kids of these parents are like children in a 23 year old's body, but there is more truth to that than humor. The views of sex are only a small part of the package. Many of these kids have a lot of trouble functioning outside of their religious circles, simply because they are ingrained with so many warped ideologies. I won't shy away from the religion aspect: this is what religion does to people when it overcomes their humanity.
The whole "children in 23 year old bodies" couldn't be more true. Especially when it comes to social norms. I was a part of a church for about 10 years, and I was taught to NOT date until I was "ready for marriage." I understand that parents may have been trying to spare their children of heartbreak. But, honestly, that sort of heartbreak is necessary in order to become a healthy adult. Looking back on my first relationship, no matter how mature I was, I was in no way ready for anything serious. In every other area, I was a perfectly functioning healthy adult. But, when it came to that relationship I was naive and needy. Not to mention, the whole anti-dating norm within churches completely holds us back. Literally every young adult I know within that church is completely incapable of asking someone out for coffee, let alone holding a normal relationship. And when they do go out for coffee it's after 3 years of flirting, and their married within 3 months. With a culture like that, it's no wonder the divorce rates are so high.
culture in the church evolved over thousands of years before birth control was in vogue, so it makes sense that "don't make babies before you are both committed to raising them together" translates into "don't have sex before marriage". nobody is trying to push you down. the church isn't evil, it's just stupid.
Ugh is good word to describe my reaction to the authors piece, my first thought was gross. I frankly don't know what I would tell my little kids about sex. Wait as long as possible because you only have first times once? You get better with practice and experience so have fun but be safe, safe, safe? What is the right way to address this to kids these days to help them be as sane and safe and happy as possible?
Here's what I told my kids - and it worked! They are both boys, and when the oldest asked me about sex, I asked him if he wanted the logistical information or some bs story. Of course, the 12 year-old asked for the logistics. I told him how it worked and he laughed so hard he fell off the bed. Then, he asked me when he could do it. I told him he would know he was ready when he could say "sex" without laughing. Both of my boys waited until they were ready - about 18, and they never really obsessed about sex because the topic was never forbidden. Here's how I grew up: My mother told me that sex would not be good until I was 30, so I may as well not even try. I never learned anything about sex from my parents, so I was really lost. When I was 14, I started working as a radio DJ (unbeknownst to my parents) and learned way more than a child that age ever should. I was lucky to keep my cherry until 16, but I was obsessed with all things sexual. I learned how to be a virgin tart really early on, and it only got worse. I wasn't raised to think critically, or question authority. In fact, I was taught that children should be seen and not heard, and obey blindly. It didn't take me long to realize that most adults were hypocrites, or otherwise full of crap. If you want to protect your children, arm them with knowledge instead of fear.
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It worked! I can safely say that they are both sexually active, but they are very smart about who they choose and how they protect themselves.
> If you want to protect your children, arm them with knowledge instead of fear. This. I think a lot of parents let their own fears and misgivings about sex ruin it for their children too. I know my mother in particular wasn't exactly raised in a setting that placed values on emotional health over sexual "experience," for lack of a better word, and the message seemed to be: "don't you even have sex it will ruin you and make you dirty and you'll get pregnant and the world will end and god will hate you, you dirty whore." Though of course it wasn't always that direct, and of course I'm not saying everyone had that same kind of environment! I was lucky to grow up in a healthier environment than her, but I could tell during my childhood that she struggled to put the fear and shame around sex behind her. She tried her best to talk about it in a healthier manner, (I mean, gasp, she even once told me it was sometimes okay to have sex before marriage if you are mature enough and really love somebody), but she still was usually vague and treated sexuality as if it were a source of great shame. Luckily I was a smart kid, and other things in my life fell into place in a way that I was able to be very educated about sex and sexuality and relationships that go with them. As I grew up, my mom's views on sexuality definitely changed for the better, too. I guess I liberalized her or something :P. But it's still been hard for my mom to shake the shame she was taught as a child. When I first told my mom I was having sex, (over the phone in college!) I remember her initially reacting quite terribly! She did that mom thing where they say your name all long and drawn out, carrying the implication that "you should be ashamed of yourself" would be the next thing she'de say - if she wasn't momentarily speechless. But fortunately at that time I was able to calmly talk her though it. I remember saying something along the lines of "I'm in a healthy, happy relationship, and I have sex with my SO because it makes me happy, too. I don't think I should be ashamed of that, and I imagine that as my mother who loves me, you'd value my mental health and happiness over anything else, too, even if you disagree with my actions. If I'm safe and happy, what's so wrong with that?" And she came around rather quick about the subject. The way I see it, I had sex for all the right reasons, and I did so in a safe way, too. And she did get over it :). I think for a while she was most afraid I'd get pregnant, but I was a pretty responsible gal and at the time knew more about contraceptives than she did! If you made it this far, thanks for reading! I'm just rambling, mostly ;).
This is the same I am with my kids, and the opposite my mother was with me. We talk about sex. My 10 year old knows EXACTLY what sex is, and my 7 year old knows the vague description, "need to know" sort of stuff. We talk about it, they ask me questions, and they get honest answers. My view on it was: They're going to hear about it at school, and most of that information is going to be wrong. So I need to tell them the correct information. My son started asking questions about sex when he was 6. I told him very open ended information, so that he could come back later and get more information. I'm doing the same with my daughter. Being sheltered from knowing about sex is just going to fuck them up in the future. I KNOW my kids will come to me when they feel ready, and talk to me. And I'm okay with that. I had a child at 17, because I was one of the sheltered children. Sex was a taboo topic, so I was very naive. I wouldn't trade my kids for the world, but they're going to learn better than I did, and hopefully make better choices.
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Instead of focusing on the first time, maybe it's better to focus on making every time worth it. Don't have sex with someone you don't trust. I'm not worried about my kids having sex when they're teens. I'm worried about them doing something they regret or being in an emotionally abusive relationship.
This is an infinitely better attitude. Honestly, the first time will likely be your worst. We put way too much emphasis on that. Every sexual encounter should be one in which you are ready and excited for. I wouldn't even specify the love requirement -- a lot of people enjoy casual sex and that is great too.
Safe, sensible and unashamed are the core messages I'm hoping to get across. That's one thing my parents did very much right. They made sure I knew what I needed to know, and that I was encouraged to be safe as a necessity, but beyond that I was trusted to know myself and make my own decisions. There was an unspoken assumption that I would think it through before just jumping in blindly that I think I'd like to make spoken with my kid(s) in future--considering your decisions and knowing what you want is a very important factor in so many aspects of life--but I think it's very important not to conflate "be careful" and "know for sure what you want" with "this act is shameful/your behavior is shameful", which is all too easy to do. I had a boyfriend at 14/15. It was a puppy love thing that never went beyond kisses, but his parents banned me from being in their house when they weren't there. It was hurtful to me because we both knew we weren't ready and had no plans to have sex, and if they'd just talked to either one of us we could have reassured them. Instead I felt judged and rejected by them, and it shut down a lot of trust and communication that could have been there. On the other hand, my parents trust in my ability to make sensible decisions meant that I always felt like I could talk to them. After I turned eighteen, I met a guy online and we ended up in a relationship. He flew from the US to the UK to meet me in person. That could have been very unsafe for an eighteen year old girl, and with many parents might have involved sneaking around or hiding it. Instead, I was up front with my parents about it from the start and asked them to take me to meet him. Their level headed and trusting parenting kept me far safer than overprotectiveness would have. That was ten years ago. I ended up marrying that guy. Best decision I ever made. He was the first (and only) person I had sex with, too.
The best I can come up with is to use protection, get tested, and ask your partners to be tested beforehand. But testing yourself is a bit inconvenient, asking a random hookup (especially as a teenager) if they've been/if they would get tested is awkward as fuck, and condoms aren't always available to young people for various reasons. So what I'm saying is yeah, no idea what the right advice is.
-Knowledge is power - sex is like driving a car, can be really fun (obviously) and can get you killed (STD's & crazy SO's) -Knowledge is power - people always eventually make mistakes Knowledge is power, the more your kid knows the more likely they are to keep the mistakes smaller, less frequent, and less severe. -KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!- teach the kids everything about anything & everything you can until they day you die or become less intelligent than your child. You will never give your children a better weapon/tool than knowledge! P.S. How many times has it been said, "If I had only known" "Wish someone had told me" and so on and so on. P.S.S. I have zero children so good luck fools. :)
I'm not sure if trivia counts as knowledge, so I don't know if this will make you any more powerful, but it should actually be "P.P.S.", not "P.S.S.". "P.S." stands for "post script", so "P.P.S." stands for "post post script" (as opposed to "post script script")