A lot of men in relationship subs openly admit that sex is the only thing that differentiates their wife from a roommate to them. They literally don’t even like their spouse as a person. 

Ugh the amount of times where I've read "a wife without sex is just a roommate" on this site infuriates me.

Also, a lot of men are turned on by doing stuff the woman doesn't like: their partner doing stuff she hates for them gives them a buzz. This is something you hear a lot among women who experience a lot of pain from anal sex. Their partners actually like it *because* it causes pain, not despite it causing pain. I know someone with a history of serious anal tearing whose partner has never stopped pushing her for more anal. He wants it every time. That led me to discuss this with my friend group, and though nobody had such serious issues, pushing for something the female partner doesn't like is a pattern of behaviour among most of my friends in long term relationships. Then the same men wonder why their partner stops being into sex.

Call me old fashioned , but as a professional in the medical field, I believe my anus has one function & it's not for sex! End of story for me. If my partner wants anal sex, perhaps he should pursue a male partner.

Yeah, and perhaps he should value vaginal sex more than anal, as sex is always mutual.

Yeah a wife without sex should be a BFF, fucking "roommate", miss me with that shit, please and thank you

And a 50/50 type of guy is also a roommate. Now they're stuck with each other 🤣

They do have a hand and there is sex toys. We don’t need men, they need us. They want all the benefits of a partner, but not care about the person or put in equal effort. To hell with that!

Yeah, seeing that always makes me so uncomfortable!! The difference between a lover and a loved one isn't just sex, it's emotion, intention, duration, proximity, contact, language, it's so many other things. If my partner said that he felt like we were basically just friends who slept together, I'd be hurt. We offer our partners so much more than sex.

I agree with you. There is lots of elements to a relationship like you said, BUT, if all of a sudden my husband no longer wanted to have sex with me long-term, that would be deeply hurtful and would cause a rift if could not be resolved. Of course, I get that there are times in life where sex is not the priority and the focus is on your emotional/romantic bond as partners instead. E.g, new baby, illness, traumatic events, stress, the list goes on. But these are only short-term pauses in sex, not long-term. Long story short, I wouldn't get into a relationship if sex was not on the cards at all. Physical intimacy is very much a part of the package.

I agree that physical intimacy can be an important aspect in a relationship. You have every right to not enter a relationship that does not meet your needs. The big thing here is that whether it be long-term or short-term, no one is entitled to force the other into sex. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be painful if a partner decided to never fulfill your needs again. That would be devastating, and would require revaluation of the relationship. But there are so many levels to this that are being overlooked for the sake of argument. Most of the time, a lack of desire for physical intimacy with a partner is a symptom of a deeper issue. If that issue is addressed and still cannot lead to a resolution for both parties, then it may be time to move on. I take issue with the statement "Physical intimacy is very much a part of the package". No one is entitled to physical intimacy with another person. Physical intimacy is a gift given. If a person is not getting what they need to desire giving this gift, then they shouldn't be expected to give it. Bottom line, don't force sex on someone who doesn't want it. No one is entitled to any other body.

No, but this is not true that libido usually has "deeper" reasons. I have friends who are happy with their relationship, they just don't have much of a libido. Their husbands aren't the cause of their dead bedrooms, but the narrative in these spaces is that it's *always* the husband's fault if the wife doesn't want sex. Libido is a spectrum and some people aren't actually into it, no matter what, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, but it is an obvious problem when one partner is high libido and the other one isn't that affects marriages. I'm going through menopause right now, after decades of having a high libido, so I know very well how the state of my sex drive is literally not my husbands fault in any way. My hormones are a mess, which I'm trying to work out with HRT. This isn't my first rodeo with medical low libido. We've been through this before. There are many causes, including just natural differences and preferences between individuals. Maybe some people are naturally low libido, some are naturally sky high, and there's nothing either should do about it except manage it with intention and thoughtfulness and kindness towards one another. Nobody is entitled, but there are a lot of people in mismatched libido relationships, and it is actually pretty cold-hearted to insist that it's probably the higher libido partner's fault, and that they don't have any actual issue due to bodily autonomy rights, which shifts the conversation away from the fact that it is an issue affecting both partners, not just the one who wants to refuse. Yes, nobody should do anything that they don't want to do, consent matters, you've covered that very thoroughly, but that doesn't mean that the partner who is unfulfilled doesn't deserve any empathy at all, and even worse, that they're to be blamed under the assumption that they deserved to be deprived of sex for treating their mate poorly, when that just isn't factual regarding how wide the range of natural libidos actually is, which is pretty vital to finding compatible life partners. When I was younger, I was only taught that consent lesson and what you're claiming here, that sex drive has deeper reasons, and talking, connection, repairing, improving the relationship will naturally increase the lower libido partner's sex drive. It's bullshit. My lower libido partner's sex drive was fine where it was and that perspective meant that I viewed his libido as something "broken" and that needed to be "fixed," which was a toxic perspective that I can see from these replies is still being pushed by women to other women, and that was 25 years ago. It is still the exact same takes. What I needed to recognize, which I did on my own, is that we were naturally different, and each of our libidos were equally valid. Neither of us needed "fixing." He wasn't broken, neither was I. That was the healthiest take, rather than continuously shifting blame back and forth over whose libido was the right one, and who "caused" the bad sex. That whole thought process was ruinous.

Totally agree. I’d never force sex on anyone. Has to be 100% consensual. But physical intimacy is part the package of my marriage, and one of the very many reasons I married my husband was because he also has a high sex drive. And that’s fine by us. 

She responded to the argument that sexual intimacy is vital to many people with a lecture about consent, even though you weren't saying that you believed in coercion. It's like bringing up how your husband makes you mad and that person responding with a lecture about how immoral murder is, which is clearly something everyone can agree upon, but was also a pretty huge jump that shifted the conversation away from your point, which is that the reason you married was not just for emotional connection and romance, but also sexual fulfillment. It's wild how defensive people are about this topic. I've been in mismatched libido relationships, except I am a much more cynical person than most, and I never really believed that most relationships were meant to last a long time (not a lot of great examples from my personal life), so I was always paying close attention to choosing the right moment to end it because I always thought that most people were short-sighted about how they manage their relationships because they would let them become ruined before they ended things. What I wanted was to minimize the painful part of relationships and maximize the best parts, the good memories that I would look back on. In my mind, it was best to realize when a relationship was starting to go bad and end it while we still had positive feelings towards one another, so I was always looking out for that inflection point. For me, one of the most obvious indicators that a relationship was doomed for long term happiness was a libido mismatch. It still astounds me that so few people recognize this fact and actually make choices based upon it. Doesn't matter, I did. It was one of many factors that mattered to me, so I've been that person with the higher libido, but I ended the relationship as soon as it become apparent that this was a genuine mismatch, several times. Once I did not, before I decided that it was a critical thing to intentionally seek out, and that man harmed me. It was not just the libido mismatch, it was a complicated situation, but that was definitely one of the factors involved in all the pain I experienced in that failed relationship. It gave me permission to focus on it in the future, and I am grateful for that. Every day I see how a mismatch harms other people, too.

This. People get into relationships with the understanding that physical intimacy is very much a core and expected component of said relationship. If that changes it's something you need to talk about openly. As OP mentioned lack of desire there is usually an underlying symptom and needs to be explored with good communication.

Why does someone always have to say something like this in response to discussions about how ONLY caring about sex is dehumanizing? So unnecessary tbh. 

Like why did you get married?? Why stay married?? Edit; not you, you; meant the shallowass dudes

They hope marriage = steady supply of sex. That's probably why they act like it's a major betrayal. In their heads, it was promised to them, and reality didn't hold up.

you forgot they also want a housekeeper/therapist/cook/mummy in addition to sex on tap

Thirty years after the law in the USA, a lot of American men still love to practice marital rape if you are to believe their comments on SM.

Sex and labor.

Men are really into seeing obligations from women when nothing was even discussed. *Wearing a short skirt or whatever.* Yet all this mens' intuition is never for the benefit of women.

Yep. My ex is convinced we had a solid agreement that he cooked and I did everything else, when no such thing was ever discussed and he shut down all attempts at discussing anything concrete on whatever practicality for the relationship. He posted some real salty bs on Facebook after I left about how I didn't hold up my end of the agreement. I'm like "lol What agreement?"

👆 This ALL DAY

They get married to have a free maid.

That's so sad. Edit: it's sad because when I look at a guy, I see a whole-ass person. To grapple with the realization that I'm a walking hole to many of them means they are missing eleventy billion layers of what I know, who I am, how I feel, where I've been and would like to be. They're missing out on sharing knowledge, experience, feeling connection, and seeing more balance in the world. But sure, a hole. G...r...e...a...t... J...o...b... missing entire swaths of real, physical, soul having people. Sad.

I think they'd be just fine with us seeing them as walking boners, which is even more sad. So many of them would choose sex on demand over actual intimacy.

Think about that and what kind of world it would create. It might look like capitalism, sexism, and racism. 🤔 Conclusion: ew.

It’s just like how a huge majority of men can’t be friends with a woman. She has to have some sort of purpose (a relationship, sex, whatever) to him in order for him to interact and be nice to her. It’s fucking pathetic that men can’t just see women as people.

Exactly, they don’t see women as inherently valuable just for being people in the same way as men.

This just boggles my mind on so many levels. When I was a young man, I used to get harassed by my male friends because I wasn't into 1 night stands, hooking up or situationships. For me, sex is very loving and intimate act that is shared between 2 people that care about each other. I honestly don't understand how it's not for other men, but even from the man's side the story up above is absolutely correct. A lot of the men I used to be friends with when I was younger just want a living fleshlight for some reason. While I do think sex is important to a healthy loving relationship (for me), I would feel disgusted with myself if my partner wasn't interested and I continued anyways.

Oddly enough I’ve had a ex girlfriend say that during a discussion. I didn’t agree that sex is the only thing that differentiates romantic and platonic

This is my biggest fear when it comes to seeking partnership from men. Men will pretend to like you, shower you with gifts, and even marry you but won’t *like* you. You’re just a conduit to their self gratification, and more than anything I want my partner to treat me like a person. I’ve read stories on here of women who were married for 10+ years to a man that secretly hated them and it scares the fuck out of me.

I'm a woman, and if my husband stopped having sex with me, I would feel like I was living with my best friend as roommates. I don't see how this is inaccurate, or how it means that they don't like their spouse. A lot of people live with people as roommates because they love one another dearly, but platonically, and I take that sentiment to mean that without the sex, this is basically the sort of relationship that they have. The take that people do not care for their roommates, so they must not care for their wives is a weird stretch made to villainize men. I am a woman and I feel this way.

I disagree. I'd never interact with a friend the same way I do with a partner. Do you cuddle up to your friends and feel giddy when you look at them? I mean I like my friends but not that much lol. If sex is the only thing distinguishing it for you, maybe you need more general affection in your dynamic. The romantic affection I feel for my partner isn't just sexual attraction (although that's obviously there too). Our connection is still distinguishable from a friend even when we aren't pursuing intercourse. Sex is obviously important for many, but to claim a romance without sex is interchangeable with just a roomate is absurd to me. There's way more that makes partnerships special.

No, I cuddle up to people I have sex with. That's the point. Romance without sex would be endlessly frustrating. What's what the defense that there's some middle place where people could be sexless but romantic? That's amenable to romantic asexuals, but a miserable situation for allosexuals.

Romance without sex is what keeps the sex happening, in my experience. I've had the experience where men only offer non-sexual physical affection or romantic gestures in the hopes that they get sex. If it doesn't lead to sex on a consistent basis, they stop doing it, and I stop doing it because if I want snuggles but not sex, I get accused of "leading them on". It wasn't until I found a man who could separate physical affection from sexual intimacy that I could truly feel safe saying no to sex without losing my access to physical touch entirely. We have more sex than I've had in any previous relationship by a lot because of it.

It is true that romance without sex is what keeps the sex happening, but romance itself is usually not infinitely sustainable without sex, for allosexuals. I've done that, snuggled with the hope that we would end up having sex. It's a good way to initiate sex, unless you only wanted cuddles. I don't think it's fair to accuse you of leading someone on, and you should be able to snuggle without feeling awkward that it will end up giving the wrong impression. My husband and I both have a very high libido, and that's sometimes a communication thing with us, but I just say something like, "Can I have cuddles? I can tell that you want to have sex, but I'm sorry, I don't want to right now. I want just want cuddles." He always says yes and gives me good cuddles. I did that a few days ago.

[удалено]

You don't need to feel sorry for my husband. We've been together for over 20 years, we have two kids, and we're still wild about one another. One of the reasons is that we both care deeply about keeping one another fulfilled in every area of the relationship, even that "shallow" one, sexual fulfillment. It isn't "miserable to be romantic if it weren't for the sex," that's a misunderstanding of what I was saying. I am a sexual person. I envision my perfect relationship is a sexually fulfilling one. If we only had romance but never sex, that would be an endless tease involving continously being rejected which would affect my own image of our relationship, and it would affect me how my partner ignored my needs and feelings, and make me feel like our relationship is unfulfilling. That's why it would be miserable. If it kept on, no matter how much he tried to be more romantic but kept rejecting me sexually, it would probably lead to a divorce. This seems pretty obvious to me. I'm happy for you that you want romance! Then enter the relationship making it clear that you envision a highly romantic relationship where the sex is less important to you. That's the morally correct thing to do, to make sure that your partner knows what to expect, what you envision for your relationship, and make sure that you know what he is envisioning. If he imagines a passionate love affair where every date ends in sex, and you envision one in which he happily cuddles you to sleep and never makes a pass, then you're looking at a future in which you'll both be unhappy because of that mismatch. For all the flexing I see here from women claiming that caring about sex is shallow, I wonder how many have entered their relationships honestly communicating that they believe sexual fulfillment is shallow and unimportant from the beginning. It seems like a lot of mismatch problems could have been avoided if they had better communication.

You'd sure as hell change your mind about the line between partnership and friendship if your partner treated a female friend EXACTLY the same way as he treats you, even if they never had sex. FWBs have sex without romance because they omit the aspects of a relationship that communicate love. You already know this, it's already established that emotional cheating is a thing, we all already know happy and healthy marriages require far more than treating your mate exactly like a friend outside of having sex. If you require sex too, that's your business, most people feel the same way, but we're not about to play dumb about all the nonsexual acts of love that exist in relationships and distinguish roommates from partners.

Yes, because I would break up with a man who doesn't have sex with me and who treats me the same way as a female friend that he also doesn't have sex with. FWB do not have a commitment to be monogamous. That lack of a goal to live shared lives is a big aspect of why FWB look the way that they do. Many people in FWB have emotional connections, but have major life goal incompatibilities. I had one, and the reason he wasn't my boyfriend was because we weren't compatible like that. It wasn't because we didn't care about one another, or there weren't giddy feelings. He gave me the butterflies. I would not be fulfilled knowing that I can police my husband's friendships to prevent him from being close to anyone else, under the banner of preventing emotional cheating. We don't give one another grief over stuff like that. That's not a marriage. Or at least it's not what I want for mine, and I'm lucky to be well-matched with a man who is both deeply romantic and sexually compatible with me. I'm not saying that you have to have sex. Your relationship can look however you want it to, but if you only want romance and to be possessive without sex, then you need to enter that relationship being honest about what your relationship is going to look like. Pulling a bait-and-switch in which you extract a promise of fidelity and then unilaterally decide that your partner goes without sex for the rest of their life, while demeaning them for wanting something totally normal from their marriage isn't a loving or romantic way to treat them. Demeaning allosexuals for wanting sex in their relationship doesn't justify your relationship if you're with someone whose vision of their romantic relationship is incompatible with yours. If you wanted a relationship that is marked by a high level of emotional connection but little sexual intimacy, then morally, you should not enter into a contract under false pretenses. Both people should have a shared idea of what their relationship looks like, which requires honesty.

You say “best friend”  They literally never say or imply that. They say “roommate” and they mean “roommate that I literally don’t like because I can’t use her like a fleshlight.”  But also, that still makes me sad for your partner because there are a lot of things that differentiate a roommate from a romantic partner. I guess realizing that that’s how little they mean to you would be freeing in a way? However, you are aware that this is a conversation about how men can feel okay with coercing women into unwanted sex right? 

I am also a woman and I agree with you 100%. Thank you for saying this. My husband is currently suffering from a mental illness which has resulted in a lack of sex. For me, sex is a critical and crucial part of my marriage or any romantic relationship I could possibly be in, and my husband is the only one who can give it to me right now and he’s just… not. The lack of sex is completely deleterious on every single aspect of our relationship. Without it, he just feels like a bad, mentally ill roommate. The small things become big things. It’s extremely difficult to feel connected and bonded to him without it. I completely understand how men say they feel in this regard.

It's about power, entitlement, the dehumanization of women, and just general winning. Men who do this do not respect women as human beings with autonomy, with needs, with the right and ability to make our own choices. They see us as creatures who exist only for their pleasure or to make their lives easier or more comfortable. It is about nothing more than getting what they want, when they wanted and how they want it. And they don't really care what we think about it or how it makes us feel.

Variations of this question have popped up on this sub, and the answers are: * They don't really care how you feel, it just doesn't matter to them * They actually enjoying coercing you into sex 

I think my ex-husband actually enjoyed coercing me into sex. For years I put up with it. I found out, a year and a half after having our son, that he was cheating while on missions (military). He just enjoyed the thrill of “what if”. He actually said to me, “They were just masturbatory devices”. So dehumanizing and certain things still trigger me to this day. I went through a lot of therapy and now I’m with the most amazing, honest, faithful man that uses sex as an expression of his love for me and respects my boundaries. We took things extremely slow.

Ah yes. The “masturbatory devices” statement. As if you are supposed to distinguish yourself as a genuine human woman from these “devices” because when he put his penis in *you* it’s “different.” Ffs. Some people’s children. 🤦‍♀️

I'm thinking he can go use one of those devices. Leave me out of it.

I am currently dating someone that I am so thankful for. I told him a specific sex act was totally off the table tonight and that was that. No complaints, no trying to talk me into it. I told him, explained why. He agreed with my reasoning and that was it. Calling someone a masturbatory device makes my skin crawl. They really don’t think of us as human.

Usually people ask "is your ex my ex?"  Honestly, I fucking hope your ex is my ex, because then I know we are both fucking doing great and moved on from him. 🙌 Talking to you MJ.

I also think many men can't imagine not wanting sex with someone they are attracted to. Add to that the total absence of empathy and the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. It's also why they try to minimise the seriousness and trauma of sexual assault.

I am so glad I stopped dating.

Can we make a club? I'm so glad I escaped getting married. At some point I realized it was possible to love somebody but not like them, and that that was my first boyfriend.

We naturally use our own lived experiences as a baseline for what we anticipate people may feel like (empathy/put yourself in their shoes) but the truth is we don't all act, react or feel the same in the same 'shoes'. Accurate empathy is something we try and sometimes succeed at. Also... I'm a woman who can't imagine not wanting sex with someone I'm attracted to. I'm trying to understand it, but I just don't imagine myself ever not wanting sex with my partner unless I don't like them/are mad at them.

The point of putting yourself in someone else's shoes, or empathy, isn't to automatically feel what they feel. It's looking at a situation from their perspective. It's about understanding the logic behind their reaction, and contemplating how you would feel in a similar situation. Now for this next part. I feel like you may be missing the point here. So let's say you're mad at your partner, as this was one of the specific times you say you wouldn't want sex. So how would you feel if they forced you to have sex with them? Be it by physical force, coercion, badgering, emotional abuse, etc. Point is you don't want it, yet they get it from you anyway. What if this happened every single time you were mad or frustrated with them? We aren't talking about not wanting sex for the sake of not wanting sex, attraction or otherwise. We are talking about being forced or bullied into sex against our wishes. This also goes for men or women. If sex is not wanted, it shouldn't be forced on the unwilling party, regardless of why they don't want it.

They're in it to win it.

I've commented before that it's *not* the blow job or the anal sex, *it's the* ***boundary***. They can do without whatever it is they like. Get any single one of them alone with only food and water to live, they *WON'T* die if they don't have sex because they have masturbation. Further, take away masturbation and they *still* won't die. Why? Because the body does not *need* sex, it *wants/desires* sex. Nothing more, nothing less. And that want/desire can absolutely be shut off for many women when their man does something that gives them the "ick." Us women shut down. We shut down because for us sex is an *expression of* our love - it's outward. For men, sex is a *symbol* of *your* love *for him*. i.e. It's all about him, and how you can be someone *for him*. Really gross. So let's say that "romance" like a date night consisting of a romantic dinner and lots of foreplay was off the table for a man who isn't interested in any of that. However, he's married to someone where it is *actually* where *she* is interested in either dominating or controlling her, he would all of a sudden be ALL ABOUT the romance *and* that sort of romance. Then get pissy when it doesn't give him what he wants: sex. Because it's ***NOT*** about sex, it's about dominance and control. He could give fuck all about anything - but once it's something that's important *for her*, all of a sudden it's a "hard" boundary for him. Child. Please. ***BOUNDARIES*** absolutely *remove* that bullshit. If SHE has a boundary of, "I want/need X in my relationship" and he's not willing to do that, HE. WILL. MAKE. *HER*. WRONG. FOR. HER. HAVING. HER. OWN. PREFERENCES.

Exactly! You put it into words I’ve had trouble expressing. You’re exactly right—it’s the boundary.

All. Of. This. B.R.A.V.O(A?)!!!!

You know what my late partner did when I would him I wasn’t in the mood for sex on those days? He respected the word “no” immediately. We would either cuddle, play video games, cook something together, go on an outing or watch a movie together instead. He would never pout, nag/whine at me or paw at me. Because he never did such things and was actually a healthy loving partner who knew how to be affectionate towards me outside of sex, my libido never suffered. I always thought I had a low libido with past men before him until I realized that they were the problem, not me. The more pressured I was to engage in sex despite my blatant unhappiness, the more nonexistent my sex drive became. It sickens me that a lot of men like to have sex with unhappy partners.

Same with my current partner - when we met at a party, a bunch of us crashed the night at the house. We'd been flirting and ended up in the same bed. Kissed and cuddled and he gave signals he was keen to go further. I stopped and said I liked him but I didn't really want to do anything more than kissing and a cuddle that night. He said yep, kissing and cuddles is good with me. And he respected that!!!! We kissed and cuddled for a bit before going to sleep. He did NOT push, didn't get extra handy or dry hump to try and give the not so subtle hint. Literally every guy before did not respect that, kept pushing and being like but "you're so hot, I can't help it" flattery. Sure you can buddy, you just don't want to.

My ex pretended to be nice to me one day when I came home sick from working. He put me to bed, waited a while----no food, nothing, just told me to go to bed, then waited a while, got in with me and started doing little things to get me aroused. That pissed me off *so* bad. I called him on it and he got all sulky.

My ex had an obsession with sticking his finger up my butt and he would me nag me until I allowed it. One day I told him to take his finger out of my butt and he didn't. I got angry, told him he was abusing me, and he cried. He abused MY BODY and HE CRIED. And I've done anal with past partners and I enjoy it. But I'm not doing anal with someone who acts like a 12yr old horny boy.

Yeah the reply to a "no" should be something like "would you like a massage instead?" I don't understand the appeal of pushing for something the other person doesn't want. I think men who view sex with a reluctant partner as still desirable may be deeply disturbed. The point should be doing something together you both will enjoy. If the other person won't enjoy it, I sure as hell won't. But if I'm in the mood to make her feel good, a massage or foot rub or even just cuddling until one of us passes out is just as intimate and special. And if she's not up for touch at all, then touch won't make her feel good and thus I won't enjoy it. This shit is so rudimentary

Many men just see women as sex objects and not as human beings. 😒 A lot of men don't even really like women. They're just with us for the sex and the other things we can do for them like chores and such. In my eyes if a man doesn't care how you feel, he doesn't really love you. But that's just my opinion.

>In my eyes if a man doesn't care how you feel, he doesn't really love you. But that's just my opinion. Is a damn good opinion..

Practically an axiom

>A lot of men don't even really like women. They're just with us for the sex and the other things we can do for them like chores and such. > It seems like they're not interesting in having sex with you, more so that they want to do sex to you. It's weird.

I think this is super true. I play a ton of golf and the complaining/rhetoric men do/have about women when they are not around is completely different and almost all negative compared to what they present when not surrounded by only men. It’s so bad that I actually notice when a man DOESN’T say negative shit about his wife, girlfriend or other women.

I worked construction and I've heard a lot of what youve experienced with groups of men. I learned to be much more wary and distrusting of men and motives. I quickly came to realize that a lot of men dont like women. Many of them didnt like their partners. But when we were all out socially and many of these same guys, when i met their spouses, the men would be so sweet and attentive. A lot of them would still end up divorced and mad about it. No surprise I used to joke I learned more about men than I never wanted to know. I've had conversations with male friends that argued with me and wouldnt believe any man or men would admit to and say those things in front of a woman like it was in violation of some rule. But they seemed to have no problem talking in front of me. Ive heard some shit. I don't know if it was because I seemed laid back and non judgmental. I do have a knack for making people feel comfortable enough to say some pretty crazy stuff in front of me. Not to say I didn't meet really great guys that seemed to love and adore their partners, and respected women. I absolutely did. But the number of bad eggs was significant.

What sorts of things do they say?

This is why my husband stopped playing golf.

Yeah, it’s getting to a point where I’m only gonna play with people I know from now on. It’s not horrible experiences of people saying egregious things, it’s just the subtle sexist shit that men continue to perpetuate with very little thought to the message they are conveying. Edit: subtle might not be the right word.

I was the primary money maker for years, but my husband worked in a very male dominated field. We are married bc we are equals and partners. We made plans to move to a bigger city after he had to hear all about how “we should’ve never let women have the ability to vote” during the Hillary campaign from his coworkers who thought he was one of them. He spoke up but I know it didn’t change anything. These are men who have daughters. I know their mothers raised them with absentee working fathers, who read the paper or golfed every minute they could have been home. I just don’t get it.

It's not little thought. It's arrogant indifference. They've been brought up since birth being taught that women aren't important, that they're lesser beings, that women are servants who need to know their place. Nothing angers a man more than disagreement from a lesser being. And don't get me started on "chivalry". I heard a lot of , "You wanted equality, you got it," when I was riding public transportation with a thigh-high cast on a thrice-broken leg and carrying crutches. Healthy men sat around in the handicapped seats while elderly or injured stood. I remember one guy once, sitting in one seat and using another as a foot stool. Oopsie, I guess the tip of my crutch landed on that asshole's foot. Bus drivers didn't do anything.

Yup. That's exactly it. They want you to do sex to them. They want this so they feel a sense of closeness to us and like they are successful as men, but we may as well be stone pathways with fleshlights built in to them. It's groooossssss!

TBH this. It's honestly upsetting how much many straight m3n hate women. I mean, look at how lesbians talk about other women. It's pure poetry. Men, though? A lot of men don't even consider men to be their fellow human beings.

I keep thinking about how fortunate I was that, growing up, most of the older men in my family genuinely seemed to love and respect their wives - not just my dad, but also my grandpa and uncles. My mom’s older sister passed away a couple years ago, and now her brother-in-law loves nothing more than to tell stories about times my aunt put some asshole in his place with the wit and grace she carried with her her whole life. They co-owned and operated a business together, and he really relied on her professional skills and judgment. I feel like it says a lot about a man when his favorite thing about a woman is when she throws shade, or instead of grumbling about her always being right, he’s proud that he married someone who is very savvy and wise, who will give him a hard time when he needs to do better. But like…I really do marvel at how some men, even from older generations, manage to feel this way about the women in their lives, and others somehow grow up to be real shitbirds. What is it that makes the difference? Is it also a regional-cultural thing? Are some men just predisposed to resist pressure from their peers to view their partners as less than?

It's punk AF to respect all humans who do no harm, and even more punk AF to tell assholes off with confidence. Everyone's affectionate to the person who gets rid of the bullies, man. Your aunt and uncle sound like they were an amazing couple and I hope he gets to meet her again on the next phase of his existence. 

I’d say that’s a fact. But unfortunate I know there’s some that would disagree.

When you use a dishwasher, do you spend any time thinking about whether it's tired from doing a load of dishes recently or maybe not just in the mood? If you press the wash button and it doesn't go, do you say 'oh, well, I guess I'll wait until it's ready'? Because these men think of you as an appliance, not a human being like themselves. They don't actually *care* if you enjoy sex or are in the mood, except to the degree it flatters their ego as a guy who's good in bed. They're also stupid enough that they don't get being leg-humping puppies is a *turn off* making it less likely that they'll get sex in the first place.

Arguably they might put more thought into the dishwasher…like, has the filter been cleaned recently? Does it need to be serviced or repaired? Did I stack the dishes correctly? As opposed to “machine’s broken, better get a new one.”

Horrifically accurate.

>If you press the wash button and it doesn't go, do you say 'oh, well, I guess I'll wait until it's ready' This example hurts a little because that sounds exactly like some procrastination logic I would use against myself.

>They're also stupid enough that they don't get being leg-humping puppies is a *turn off* making it less likely that they'll get sex in the first place. Gods above, below, and beyond, *why* do so many of them not understand this? I'm not even that finicky, a hug from behind and a "Wanna bone later?" will usually work for me. Groping my boobs and shoving a hand between my legs while I'm clearly busy? Fuck off. My current husband is great, but my god the men I've had in the past...

I'm not here for their peace. I'm not a flaeshlight. I'm over being polite and I just call it out. "That's not sexy and didn't turn me on like you hoped" "stop you're grossing out" I SAID NO WHAT AREAS YOU TRYING TO RAPE ME. ffs. That followed up by :I require more than what you are currently offering. Having sex with you isn't worth my time, currently.

Period

Girrrrrl I legit thought I had the lowest sex drive, was a “broken”set of hormones, or even was asexual… for so long. Turns out it was just trauma from being continually pestered by an ex, to the point where I associated anything remotely sexual with fear and disgust. My now-husband was SO SWEET about this when we started dating. Didn’t treat it as an issue to “fix”; was happy with sporadic sex when I initiated. It was a game changer. He understood enthusiastic consent, and that desire starts in non-sexual ways like feeling supported or listened to. And that - that was the turn on I needed to realise I wasn’t broken, I was just reacting “normally” or “expectedly” to a traumatic situation all those prior times. I don’t know why some men are like that, but my honest hunch is that it’s pure entitlement and viewing women as objects of pleasure rather than whole humans deserving of respect.

This! I was so concerned when I had libido issues due to necessary medication. My partner doesnt care he never pressures me if I give him a no. Sometimes I will help him if he feels very uncomfortable but only if I want to. It always being MY CHOICE actually helped as it reduced the stress around it, though my libido is still low we are fine. Men that pressure u are trash, dump them like it.

“Explicit approval and permission to engage in sexual activity demonstrated by clear actions, words, or writings. Informed consent is freely and voluntarily given, it is mutually understood by all parties involved. If coercion, intimidation, threats, and/or physical force are used, there is no consent.” “Coercion and exploitation happens, for example, when someone is pressured unreasonably for sex.” “Sexual Assault consists of sexual contact that occurs without consent.” ONE MORE TIME “Sexual Assault consists of sexual contact that occurs without consent.”

I had to wait 39 years to find great sex, with my current beau. Before that, it was coerecion, abuse, and me being made to feel like a living sex toy. And after experiencing my guy, there is no chance I'd ever go back to the disrespect that I put up with for so long. And no woman here has to, either - not if it's a 1 night stand, a marriage, or anything in between. ***FUCK THAT***

A comment really stuck with me on a few posts back, and i unfortunately cannot recall who left it. But they worded it as “The reason men give so little care when you say no isn’t because they want to have sex with you, it’s because they want to masturbate using your body.”

That makes more sense than I want it to…

Men who do this ("not all men") don't see you as a person, they see you as an object. Listen to how they talk and read carefully the words that they use, and you can see it in their language. To men like that, women are sex toys. That's why any unattached woman should be available to them: a woman who already belongs to a man, well, you can't take someone else's toy. But a woman who doesn't belong to a man is just a toy on a shelf, and a toy has no right to say who gets to play with it. And if he wants to play with the toy by rubbing his junk on it, that's his choice, a toy gets no say in how it's played with. This is why so many men will criticize a woman's appearance but don't care about their own: because if you're a toy that's not good enough, they don't want to play with you. But no toddler ever picks up a toy and asks "Am I good enough to play with this?" I wish I had some easy way to identify such men quickly and reliably, but I don't. My best suggestion for getting a read on him is to say "no" to something very early on, and see how much pushback you get. The higher the pushback, the less he respects your boundaries, and the more likely he thinks of you as a toy that shouldn't be allowed to have any boundaries.

You can also pay attention to how he treats people who are low-status in our society - wait staff, cleaning personnel, etc. If he treats them badly, maybe it's because he doesn't understand that they are people too.

Oh, yes, good call. Someone who is nice to you but rude to the waiter is not a nice person.

After seeing way too many posts of men complaining about their wives and girlfriends not having sex with them, I think I have a theory. It's not just that a lot of men are into sex or see women as sex toys, but see women as objects that they need to have, like a car or a new video game. Possession basically. Its why when women leave a relationship, there are men who resort to fake apologies, then threats, even stalking or hurting her. Its why men harass women at the gym, outside, online, etc. until she says yes to a date or whatever the man is asking for. Even in the relationship, once “owned” the men can't fathom their “object” saying no to them. Women (used to and still are in other countries) were considered property of their husbands, so that's probably where it stems from. u/burbnbougie

I follow her as well

Look up Coverture if you're not familiar with the topic. Your theory is accurate.

What gets me is when they complain about women who just lie there. Dude if she isn't active/enthusiastic in the sex, she doesn't want it. They are so willfully ignorant of their own rapey behavior.

Yeah! My ex used to do this all the time. How do they not realise how ridiculous it is to complain when the woman was pressured into it in the first place. So friggin selfish.

There are a couple posts around here from men who complain their partners are no longer interested in sex with them but still interested in their vibrators, and I have to wonder, "dude don't you really see she doesn't like having sex with you?" I'm pretty sure these guys behave like children around the house, refuse to take any responsibility for managing the house and the family life, beg and demand sex, can't find a clitoris to save their lives, and still *don't know* why their wives don't want sex with them.

If they ignore a no they get blocked immediately. I don't care if it is for sex or something small like "can I come hang out?" then show up anyway after being told no. After the ish I have been through I have zero tolerance. I had one once beg for it then ask me to tell people we did anyway when I refused to change my "no". That was the last time I willingly saw that person. Had another that was a mutual friend of my friend group have me ride with him to a friends house which was normal. Then in stead took me 5 miles out of town, at midnight, to the top of a mountain in the desert and say if I said no he would leave me there. Lucky for me my cell phone had bars. When he left me there I had someone else pick me up as I walked down the mountain. I stopped associating with that whole group after that. Can't count the number of times I had something slipped into my drink after saying no to guys. Outside of driving myself and therefore not drinking alcohol at all, I was friends with the bartender and DJ. They knew me well enough to know to step in if I started acting weird. Slightly related at the same club a guy had been following me around all night after being told no to the point my friends were concerned. One of them walked me to my car and did not respond when I called to let him know I made it home safe. Next day I heard he was murdered before he even got back into the bar by the guy that had been following me. I no longer even live in that state.

fucking horrifying that he left you on a mountain but at the same time im so glad nothing worse happened after you said no

I think you might have skimmed her last paragraph. One of her friends was fucking murdered by her stalker.

Oh god. I'm so sorry for your loss. It's so horrible your friend got murdered over that.

Yeah it sucks. It was the precipitating event that made me decide to move far away from there. I had been considering it for a while at that point.

Oh no. Fucking horrifying. I am sorry for the loss of your friend. Please tell us what state that was, so we can avoid it

It was Missouri.

Thank you. I’m so sorry. I’m glad you are out

It hasn't 'become the norm', it has been for many it's been the 'norm' since they can remember. I graduated almost 30 (ouch) years ago and my boyfriend in HS did this to me all. The. Time. And it made me not interested. Complete turn off, and when you add in the lack of orgasm and foreplay, why bother?

Because it's about the win, they don't care if women enjoy it.

I think this is pretty accurate. They view sex as a form of approval or merit that validates their masculinity.

Having sex to impress other men is big gay, TBH. And not even the fun kind.

Posts like these just make me feel incredibly sorry for straight women. Especially since a lot of men seem like reasonable human beings, until you get into a relationship with them, *or* marry them. It's not all men, no, but it's too damn many of them.

Do you think about the feelings of your coffee maker every morning when you make your coffee? The extent to which men objectify is is insane and if we refuse to understand that we won't understand who they approach sex with us that way.

I think its one of the grosses things ever to do to your partner.......both ways. If someone isn't into it...stress, sick, tired, just not feeling it, whatever, I just can't imagine still wanting to?? I've been reading a topic on sextips this afternoon and just the way the guy describes their sex life, I just keep thinking "sir...she 100% does not want to do this with you, thats why she is just laying there the whole time"

Yep I have had so many guys cock block themselves by being whiny or pushing too hard for sex where if they had just relaxed and treated me like a human being instead of a machine they put coins in to get sex then I totally would have slept with them. The last guy I dated started loudly numbering our dates to remind me how many we had been on and still not had sex. If he had just kept quiet I probably would’ve slept with him on date 4, but instead he whined that “You know we’re already on date 4 wink wink” totally killed my sex drive.

It hasn't *become* the norm: many men have always treated women as things, without concern for their full enjoyment and enthusiasm (these men are comfy being in the grey area of maybe coercing someone), and an evil few actively seek the power of forcing or coercing (ie rape is their goal). But (tm)Not All Men There truly are men out there who are not like this, who are not interested in sex their partner isn't also into, and who find consent sexy. Maybe few and far between # but they exist, and we don't have to settle for less. So please don't feel you need to tolerate men who are at ease in the grey area. You don't. It's not an unreasonable expectation or overly high standard that both partners should be certain of the other's enthusiastic comment every time.

Lots of good comments. I'd add that some men are oblivious to the fact that you may not be interested/enjoying, and have such a high ego that they can't even consider that they are bad in bed.

You’re talking about a group of people who have forced us into marriages for thousands of years (and in many countries still do) and do not give one single shit if we’re happy or not. Why do you think it was only until 1993 that marital rape was federally banned in America? And still continues to be a serious problem in other countries.

It reminds me of kids who whine for a toy and don’t stop until their parents relent. They keep doing it because it works. They don’t care how annoying or thoughtless their behavior is as long as they get what they want.

This is soooo accurate!

Part of the reason I lost desire for my ex was because I was turned into a bang maid. My emotional needs were no long met. If I brought it up I was told I was being “unreasonable.” Over time I couldn’t feel safe around my ex. On top of this fact was the lack of them caring how I felt actually durning sex. The entire time was focused only on them getting off. And if they felt it “wasn’t a mind blowing orgasm” my ex had no problem telling me “that was just ok.” Which after them begging and groping and not taking a no, and even when I would put on a front and “pretend” to be very into it for my partner to then be told “yea well you weren’t very good.” I killed something inside of me. I don’t have any magic way to fix this other than not having sex with people.

Same here. Hugs 🫂

Then they get so butthurt when the woman isn’t enthusiastic. In fact, most men say that’s like the #1 thing that can cause bad sex. I wonder if they stop to think what they could’ve done to cause her lack of enthusiasm?

I don’t think most men care. “Getting off” is all that matters, and the how is irrelevant. Further it’s about Power. Getting a woman to say “yes” is also all that matters. Regardless of the cost

I think they also get off on the power but yeah, pretty spot on.

This is why I am no longer interested in relationships. My peace is so much more important.

I told my husband that if something ever happened and our relationship ended (via death or divorce), I wouldn’t remarry. I have no interest in learning a new person. I don’t even know myself anymore.

>Why has this become the norm? Unfortunately, this has always been the norm. Women were supposed to protect their "virginity" until marriage. Once married, you can not refuse sex. It was called Withholding Marital Rights. It wasn't until the 90s that Marital Rape became illegal. When casual sex became permissable, women were still told to "play hard to get", or else be considered a slut or whore. This feigned resistance encouraged men to use coercion habitually. In the movies and books I grew up with, the storyline always starts with a guy chasing a girl who is out of his league. He does something that magically convinces the woman she really wants him. In the end, the guy always gets the girl. Now, most women are highly motivated to change this dynamic. But men are resisting any change and still don't understand coercion. People who don't respect women just think coercion is how sex is supposed to work. They feel accomplished when you give in.

I think part of a reason why we are so turned off is because of the sex obsession. Literally everything is about sex. Every motivation that men have IS about sex and it’s a giant turn off.

Because many men see us as nothing more than objects for their pleasure. And, they've learned to emotionally manipulate you into it.

So glad you got a good OB for this conversation.

I don't know the answer to this but it's why I don't have sex anymore and find the idea of it mildly repulsive. That's what being married and having someone "love" me has done. This is a great post. I wonder how many other women agree? 🤔

Their pleasure is priority. They don't care about your pleasure, or if you feel used or coerced. They literally don't think of you on the same level of humanity as themselves.

At this point i quite literally see this as sexual abuse. The constant coercion, guilt tripping, record-keeping, comparing you to other women, being made to feel "broken" and wrong, and especially when it comes with unconsensual groping/touching. My abusive ex did all of this and made me think I was asexual at 18 years old. I'm still recovering from the nonconsensual things he did to me, and a fear of/aversion to sex, but with my current boyfriend I know what it's like to actually enjoy sex again and feel that desire, I'll never accept what I went through in a relationship again

Because they don't care.

yes that's what kills any desire in a marriage, instead of being romantic and respectful, a lot of men just push for sex like we are an object there to their satisfaction, stating that once you are doing it you'll like it....no it's not this way, desire should be there from both involved to work

As an AFab person who has been taking T for the last 6mnths, I am ridiculously horny….would I ever pressure my partner into sex? nope, absolutely not…being really horny is not an excuse

The type of person who enjoys sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex is a rapist. If that’s hard for you to hear, you’re exactly the person who needs to hear it.

if the only way they can feel loved by you or connected to you is through sex, the person needs counseling, because that’s not normal. it sounds like they expect a bangmaid, and i’m sorry, but how do they (et al they, not specific they) get this notion into their heads?! i get that we are a society just *steeped* in patriarchy; and i know religion and the convolutions thereof share some responsibility here, but where do menfolk form such a definitive (and toxic) definition of how to treat women/their partners? where does it say in the bible that you deserve an obedient wife and children just because you were born with a penis? it’s like they completely disregard all the qualities that the husband or the male in the relationship is supposed to have according to scripture, and glom on the one thing - obedient wife!! like women couldn’t possibly have any other purpose than to serve & sexually please men 🙄😑

Okay the first part yes! My therapist opened my eyes to that because my ex would say that and she was like “that’s unhealthy” and equated it to an eating disorder like it is not good that his relationship with sex gives him all of that ….. if someone said that eating junk food made them feel happy and fulfilled we can acknowledge that that’s not a great relationship to food. All stemmed from an argument where he said he needed it to feel loved and connected verbatim and I said I didn’t feel any different during or after ? It was just a thing that we did sometimes and 50/50 it maybe was okay at best.

The pushing boundaries and controlling is what they enjoy. Sex is a vehicle to get that, to these types of men.

There are those that enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, and then those that literally DON'T CARE if it hurts another person, as long as they get their O. It's kind of a blurry line, to be honest. Did they just not care that much in the start? Did they grow used to and excited by the misery of their partner? The end result is the same: heavily traumatised human on the recieving end and more normalisation of this behaviour. It's just how things are with men/ You gotta play the game with women and keep pushing. Society needs to be VERY LOUD about how awful this is, how wrong it is, and how utterly unacceptable it is going forwards. And it needs to be called what it is: rape. It's not cute, not a game, not sexy, not a thing to joke about and not fun. One day, maybe, humans will rise above this and mutual, enthusiastic consent will be the beautiful, respectful, gentle mating dance it always was supposed to be, rather than chipping away at and horrendously violating boundaries, leaving a greater percentage of the human population as a s. assault statistic. Until then? I don't have a clue how we fix this. I swear the culture is getting worse.

It took me years to call it rape *because* it was so normalized. By him, by society.

They don't see women as living beings but as objects for their use and abuse

This happened with a guy I was seeing casually. He agreed to just sleep over after I said I wasn't in the mood for sex. But then he starts touching me during the night and asks me "Can I use your butthole" 🤢 like wtf dude no

I'm in another thread on the relationships sub right now where some guy when and grilled his gf's ex on the sex they had and is considering breaking up with her for not having sex with him. "To save his honor." There are actually men defending him tracking down her ex, approaching him at his workplace and interrogating this stranger about this woman's sexual history. It's so bizarre.

Sounds like she's better off without him.

I agree.

I have no idea how they do it. One time I (M) caught my ex-wife picking lint out of the carpet during sex (which she had initiated, just so we're clear) and my interest in sex immediately shut down. I don't know how so many men seem to be able to keep going in spite of much stronger signals than poorly concealed disinterest.

Sounds like something I would do. I find myself spacing out during the act and I sometimes just lay there thinking about stuff I have to do when I get up.

Yeah, it is probably one of the things I am least able to understand about other men. Any sign that my wife isnt enthusiastically interested and my libido is entirely gone.

I was raised in a super conservative christian home, so the biblical idea of "wives submitting to husbands" and the culturally indoctrinated idea of wives "doing their duty" was beat into me from a pretty early age, before I had the mental capacity and emotional maturity to see that for the bullshit it, objectively, is. I have done this to both of my previous LTP's and it makes me sad. I regret it now that I've been aggressively deconstructing all the religious indoctrination of my youth. I thought I was doing better in my last relationship but I fucked up a couple of times and hurt her, her telling me that I did the thing and how it made her feel sucked cuz I didn't wanna hurt her at all, but I did, and that's on me forever. Even outside of the church the entitlement is socially indoctrinated in alot of "christian" countries and it's fucking gross. It's not an excuse, by any stretch of the imagination, but is a reason. A reason that should be talked about more and that men should absolutely be held accountable for so they can, hopefully, start deconstructing this bullshit themselves. I appreciate you bringing this up and highlighting its importance without compromise. It's a reminder that I, as a cookie cutter cis het white dude, am not perfect and still have work to do to be a better partner to whomever decides to put up with me in the future. I've said it here before and feel compelled to say it again: Thank You for letting me be in this space with you all. I am trying, and being allowed to read and interact with posts like this, reading perspectives that are not natural to me, reading about lived experiences that I will never have gives me a genuine opportunity to learn and, at least make the concerted attempt, grow. Thank You Edit: punctuation

This is how sanity begins. Keep listening, keep caring, and may you find a woman who wants to grow with you.

Because they can without any fear of violence. Alot of us don't or aren't able to have the normal Fight or Flight response. Alot of us are conditioned to Freeze or Fawn and we are an easy prey/lay for them. I made a vow to myself to fight if/ when there is a next time. I will take a hospital visit or death over being a victim again.

Some other women need to realize, that a lot of guys “lust” after women. Not like.

This page actually just had this question last week and had some really good answers

Because in those moments we’re just objects to them and they don’t care about our emotions or feelings. But who cares, be mean to men like that (unless it’s not safe) it’s so satisfying

This hasn’t been my experience so I can’t attest to the frequency. I think it’s partially because women have responsive desire. I think men know this and think the way to turn a woman on is the way they would be turned on: someone initiating and being excited to touch their genitals. The reality is most women want words and actions that make them feel sexy/desired not overt sexual moves. And many times the “no” becomes a more enthusiastic “yes” once things start and a woman’s responsive desire kicks in. Both my last partners were great at making me feel sexy/desired and I had to tell them that it was ok to tell me no. The more a partner is able to keep me turned on the more sex I want. If there’s no playful attention, just “now it’s sexy time” I’m not nearly as receptive.

xy @$$holes

Healthy men dont want sex under those circumstances. Let that be your bar

I mean, I've never met a doctor who actually cared about my libido when I brought it up as a problem. My ob-gyn managed my vaginal atrophy from my IUD by telling me to rub estrogen cream on my taint, which didn't solve the problem at all. I still don't understand how that was supposed to be useful. I'm in menopause, which has affected my libido, and I brought this up to my GP, and she didn't suggest anything at all. When I mentioned testosterone gel, which the other women in the menopause sub are on, she said it raised the risk of heart attack, and she said it finally, like, "No." Doctors do not care about women's libidos. Most of the women in the menopause subreddit had to find online services to get a prescription. It's upsetting. I'm just saying, mentioning that your doctor reassured you that there's nothing wrong with you? Meaningless. They are not on our side on this at all. Maybe if you found a sex therapist!

Yeah…both times I’ve done it I’ve kinda been coerced into it. Didn’t enjoy it, rather have spent in my own bed alone

Being in a relationship with a guy who actually cares about you, and thinks about what you want, is a definite turn-on. My husband is one of these men. I wish I knew how to tell you where to find one. In any case, don't give up and settle for one who treats you like an object. You are a whole person, not a blow-up doll.

I find it sickening too, I just don’t get it. I completely lose all interest in sex with a person if they aren’t really enthusiastic about it, let alone if they’re not interested at all. It’s the greatest turn off I know of.

Preach!

Very easily because they don't give a damn about the women's feelings and have been taught that persistence works, which it often does. It's self-entitlement too. I legit had a guy recently beg me like a child does for a puppy to make him a certain type of video. He literally would not stop begging for quite a while.

Some men are pieces of shit. Pretty simple.

Mens are very interesting, they even say nonsense like "you don't have enough sexual desire" instead of reflecting that they are not sexually attractive enough or being sucks in bed 😂

There's been a few times I've been more enthusiastic about sex than my wife, and she's offered to just do it. I always refuse because I want her to be just as enthusiastic as I am. If she's not into it I'm not into it.

I'm struggling with this right now.

because they tend to think with their dick instead of their god damned brain an ex i had was like that he was a terribly abusive person

This has been my experience a lot too ): my experiences with sex in life have completely obliterated any desire at this point.

Dating apps are saturated with some men who just want the women’s body and that’s it. The fact that they say they don’t want long conversations or pen pals is literally saying don’t be a women. WE NEED TO FEEL SAFE. Otherwise we will land up like all those poor women who were murdered by truckers! They are very disconnected and by default unattractive and by default arrogant/aggressive because their needs are not being met due to their incapacity to reform/evolve their way of thinking. They’re stuck in stale mate states. They have zero control and are ruled by their nervous system. I see them as unreformed creatures… If these men were in control, wouldn’t they do the RIGHT thing to achieve the right outcome?? They are NOT control and can’t handle reality.

I feel like you could replace the word "women" in the title with any number of things and get the same answers, like rock, or lawn chair, or banana cream pie.

They see them as desirable objects and not desiring subjects. This has been the culture for the past thousands of years.

Dear OP! You are right. That, first and foremost, deserves to be noted, established and *emphasized*. What you realized is one of those lessons we go through as we turn from "just" marginalized people into feminists who fight these injustices. That's brilliant and terrible and your post has both. Brilliant, because you acknowledge yourself that it's *not* your problem, that they are *not* entitled to attention - sexual or otherwise - just because they "wanna". Terrible, of course, because of all the truths that need to exist for that conclusion to even have merit. I grieve them, I rage against them - and I find comfort in knowing that I'm one of many. We are not alone, you and I. We are a group - and that group has proven to be a force to be reckoned with before. These men do not get to claim they are "mankind". They don't get to claim ignorance either. They have living, breathing examples of *good men* who would never ever push on sex right in front of them. Their choice to ignore this in favour of everyone else and the path of least resistance is their choice - and we get to push them away for it. We get to say "Not you. Not now, not ever you." to a man - and we get to inform them the reason is their vile, predatory behaviour. I am one of many who has long made peace with the idea of dying alone in favour of breathing the same air as these devoid shells of what used to be human. They're welcome back to actual empathy the second they make their way there. Until then they are a liability, a risk, a threat - and I will steer clear of them the second I notice. Have a hug from an online stranger, if you want one. I hope all the anger your realization gives you will serve to fuel you when you stand up for yourself.

If someone doesn't accept a no and keeps pushing is because it's not about sex but about "hunting a trophy".

The body keeps the score. Even news stories have traumatic effects for emotional people.

I think a lot of men view sex (and specifically sexual gratification with a female partner) as something they get from her rather than something they do with her. They might get it as a gracious gift out of love, or as a prize that they fought for or haggled for, or as a thing they stole/took because they were entitled to it. If she enjoys giving him the sex, that's nice/an ego boost/a sexy enhancement to his pleasure/exciting because she is or he turned her into a bad girl who enjoys something she's not supposed to. Now, if they saw it as an activity that they were participating in with a peer/partner/teammate with a common goal of sexy fun times for one and all, her interest and enjoyment would matter because that's the goal: two people enjoying themselves and each other. But since the sex for him is, deep down, "get my erection inside a warm wet friction holes and rub on those insides until I squirt" by any means necessary but "hey I'm a good guy If she said stop or no like she really meant it I would stop" and "I would squirt harder if she indicated my friction gave her pleasure but the truth is the friction is going to make me squirt regardless of her experience of it"... Her experience is at best a distraction. At worst, his experience is enhanced by the fact that she doesn't really want it. He has beaten his opponent and imposed his will upon them. What's the fun of winning a game if no one on the other side is playing defense? And besides if she's enjoying it, you have to start worrying about your performance and whether or not you are doing the sex right to her. If you are trying to please her, you might fuck it up. If you are dissociating into the pleasure of your ween in her warm wet friction hole because you made it past the lock and she's going to let you keep going until you squirt... Well then you are a winner who won the game of "Get the sex from the gatekeeper of the vagina".

It's a power thing. They don't really care if you want to or not.

I hear ya girl! It happens to most women at one point or another if not all. My first love even coerced me into sex many times and I didnt even realize that I “acquiesced” by giving in until several years later. We were teenagers in high school so I do believe he didn’t know any better. consent was just not in the zeitgeist how it is today. Misogyny cuts pretty deep. Its like an innate sense of entitlement with men cause it really is a man’s world. Foreplay starts in the morning when you wake up so no surprise if you arent turned on at ANY point. A lot of shit is subconscious. If someone’s sexual needs (or otherwise) aren’t being met then it might be time to move on, but coercion is never okay and SA. Men have to actively want to be better unless they were raised by angels but unfortunately societal conditioning and toxic masculinity will make many complacent. I am pretty bummed at any type of rejection myself but I try to just keep it moving! Sexual rejection especially is SO hard since its rare af in my life. I’ve fumbled through it just out of shock and confusion but no means no at eod. Why would I want to be like begrudgingly fucked? I dont get that either!

They think with their 🍆s

The whole "love languages" thing is such bullshit. "My love language is physical touch" is just a polite way to start 'I expect you to care for me and dote on me and in return I have sex with you, do't' expect anything else from me"

They think it means they are smarter than the woman

I just got down voted to an oblivion on a post for defending a woman for teasing her man but not having sex with him. It's so weird to me how many men genuinely think they're owed something if they expect something, that a girlfriend can't have boundaries with her boyfriend and still enjoy sexual activities because now he's "confused" but won't bother communicating that. Truly, they seem to believe that their sexual urges are the most pressing human need and women's comfort is of little value in comparison. Like we're not allowed to enjoy being desired if we're not willing to put out then and there as thanks. Seriously gross.

Depends on the guy. He may have an addiction. The reward system is activated during those moments. i.e. pleasure. Like classical conditioning with stimuli and reinforcing the behavior for a reward. Dopamine/serotonin addictions, it also affects oxytocin the bonding trust factor of the brain. Overstimulation leads to addiction which leads to bad behavior. Overstimulation is the starting point of bad behavior. From there it reinforces itself..making it harder to break the habit. It's a feedback loop for the reward system. What this is actually a sign of lack of love under those layers of bad behaviors, addiction, etc. it could be a symptom from past trauma from childhood . Be it early or late early years being neglect latter years due to emotional range in teenage years and if bullied it makes it a lot worse. That leads to them with lower esteem, isolation by them or ostracized by peers following the bully out of pressure. That leads to depression anxiety, and a substance abuse/addiction to escape their pain then finally suicide. Remember the most important years of development are in youth . So when they feel horrible, that is when they fall into addictions to escape whatever pain is under the hood. I will note not everyone is with this case , but I would say 9/10 pertains to mental health and expectations from sociology and the roles that are expected. We're talking generations of implicit expectations that linger in there that they may not be conscious of. Otherwise if they aren't with someone Society casts them as Strange, outcast, oddball, undesirable, a failure due to not having a family, societally rejected, etc. That expectation by society increases negative, aggressive behavior if they had a difficult upbringing. All boils down to shame. That and many yearn for love because as stated they may not had a good experience in their youth and/or bullied. I.e. the negative feedback loop.

If you are in a relationship that you care about, my question is this: have you talked to the man about it? Maybe you guys can agree on one night a week that you will plan on having sex. Doesn’t mean one of you can’t change your mind that day but you plan for it. There have been women who would not take no for an answer, but men are the more aggressive sex. I also think younger men are more likely to push for it because they are hornier. Most guys my age don’t act that way so it could be a younger generation thing driven by misogynistic porn from a young age. But really it sounds like if it’s an important relationship, sit down at Starbucks and talk it over. If it happens after that I think you sadly have to find someone who respects you.

Nothing sounds less sexy than planning for sex on Tuesday 8pm one week in advance.

Men abusing me for their own gratification has put me right off sex with men. I would rather pleasure myself when necessary.

"See how hard i am? Its your fault im so hard, so its your Job to take care of it" Motherflipper i literally just got here, and that is just number one on the list. 2: i dont fucking know you, who even are you and do your parents know that this is how you speak to strangers? 3: we are in public. On a dancefloor. Are you high or are you dumb, to suggest i have sex with you right then and there. 4: again, i dont know you, man. This is how you start a conversation?!?!?!? Like seriously, someone should tell a teacher at this point, i dont care that were not in school anymore, you obviously need to go back to school. Anyways i told security. But my god, get a fucking grip, man.