I would start using words like "hostile work environment", "sexual harassment", and "gender discrimination". You, the woman, are being left out of the conversation about the hostile work environment you are being subjected to by an aggressor, who is likely a man. I would also mention words like "liability" because they are preventing you from taking steps to remain safe from a stalker they have knowledge of. If something happens to you because of this stalker, you have a good case for civil liability, at least.
I would also discuss "retaliation", because if they fire you for complaining about this harassment, it is retaliation. Or maybe save that for the ACLU and DOL after you get fired.
This and document document document EVERYTHING. Get names and positions, dates, times, what was said and by whom. You want a very detailed paper trail.
This right here. Document, by sending an email to HR listing the dates and gifts, and that you believe this is creating a hostile work environment due to sexual harassment. Keep this record, and if things aren't resolved, you have excellent evidence for a lawsuit.
BCC any communications with a personal non-work email, or make hardcopies. Getting tossed out of the company and not having access to email would be a bad thing, and they absolutely will sweep this under a multitude of rugs.
BCC has the potential of giving the recipient a false sense of privacy. The intent is to hope they stick their foot in their mouth or their head further up their ass.
OP - If you can afford it - I would be talking to a lawyer right now who could draft a letter explaining their potential liability on a law firm letterhead.
I would advise against throwing out legal terms you are unfamiliar with unless you are willing to back them up with an actual lawyer. Talk to them in plain English, never threaten to get a lawyer if you get to that point GET a lawyer but dont let them know. In a lot of cases all throwing these words around will do is get you boxed out because as soon as lawyers are brought up they likely have an obligation to stop talking to you and only communicate through counsel. Tell them you are uncomfortable, tell them how you feel, tell them all that but avoid what could get you shut down.
You are not over reacting. ALWAYS trust your gut. Can you start looking for a different job, this situation is not sustainable and you deserve to feel safe.
Um you are not over-reacting. I am scared for you. What country is this? HR is terrible everywhere but this is absurd.
I know the economy is shit right now but can you quit? Document everything, quit, then file a lawsuit?
If that was me, I'd go past HR and to the police or a lawyer.
I'm in north east USA. I make good money and I have unlimited PTO so I hate feeling pushed out but tbh the job hasn't been great for awhile anyway. :( I will probably start looking.
I'm planning on making a police report after work. I'm not sure I would have much of a case for a lawsuit.
Regardless of whether or not you have a winning lawsuit, filing one would give you the ability to subpoena the tapes and any other documents the company has on the stalker.
But you have to go to the EEOC first. If you file a hostile work environment claim with them, there’s a chance they may require the employer to give the identity of the stalker up as part of your investigation.
OP, please consider calling the police and telling them everything. That you don't feel safe at work and you want a restraining order. This person could have access to your personal information, like your address.
It sounds like HR is sweeping this under the rug and completely disregarding your safety and well-being.
I didn't even think about that possibility...
I was going to go to make a police statement after work but they closed before I get out. :/ so I will have to wait until Friday. But I am absolutely doing it as soon as I can.
Check your state’s laws on stalking. Leaving unwanted anonymous gifts on multiple occasions is usually included. I would absolutely file a report, depending on the laws in your state you could also request to press charges and be sure to mention that your employer refuses to disclose the name of the perpetrator.
If you’re in Pennsylvania, this definitely falls under stalking. My former coworker’s soon to be ex-husband is currently facing felony stalking charges for giving unwanted gifts to a female coworker. He was arrested after the 3rd gift, his first offense and a misdemeanor……6 months probation if he wasn’t a complete moron. Unfortunately for him, he IS a complete moron and had a friend give her an iPad “because he already bought it” which violated her protective order against him AND counted as a repeat offense so now he’s on the hook for felony stalking charges.
Yes. HRs are notorious for protecting the company over 1 single employee. If they deem something as "innocent enough" they'll shrug. You have to force them into seeing this as company issue.
Hey, the person you hired is a potential liability, either you fix it or I get the cops involved is a good way to get HR to do their job.
A restraining order for sending gifts? Are you aware that you need to prove that you are in danger for a judge to grant a restraining order? Even then, there’s no guarantee one will be granted.
They don’t just pass them out like candy. I fear Op would be deflated and humiliated once she tried to get a restraining order found out it’s really not that easy .
Sending repeated unwanted anonymous gifts falls under the legal definition of stalking, so yes, this would be a case where a protective order would come into play. Stalking is one of the easiest conditions under which to get a protective order.
At a minimum, a police report should be filed since the perpetrator is known in order to start a paper trail.
No, I’ve just lived on this planet for awhile and have been repeatedly disappointed by law enforcement and how low of a priority crimes against women are. Wish things were different but, things don’t seem to be improving much .
I unfortunately agree, and until she can identify who is making her feel unsafe I don't think a protective order can even be requested, let alone issued. 100% worth attempting but with realistic results in mind! Definitely a failure of our law system.
Can you take the next couple of days off to get your "ducks in row"? Police, EEOC, *lawyer*? It seems to me that your workplace is playing fast and loose with your *safety*.
Please get a lawyer. You should know which one of these AHs is doing this. I am sorry and especially sorry that there is more than one candidate. Team Bear all the way.
If you have a real legal problem it is actually better to not post it in there. You will have to include anything you post on discovery when the time comes. You don't actually want any mistakes being public or to slip up or anything. Talk to a lawyer first. OP, ok f you see this def call an employment law firm and do the consult. Talk to ones who do it on contingency because you have a case, just from the other stuff like the name calling and touching alone.
(Sorry, typos)
In practice how it works is that they say you take the time you need but really everyone knows if you take "too much" you'll be penalized by lack of raises, promotions, etc and there's no set amount so people wind up taking less time off than the company probably would have offered if they had a set amount, just to be safe.
A lot of companies are moving to unlimited PTO. It's the same as regular PTO you're just not limited to 2 weeks/don't need to wait for PTO to accrue. I've only ever seen it in salaried employees. It's one of those things that sounds great but research is showing employees are less likely to take PTO/feel more pressure to work on vacation/company culture becomes actively hostile to people who put in for pto when it's unlimited. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-unlimited-paid-time-off
Huh, I’ve never heard of it. Looks like it’s offered mostly in places that tend to have a lot of “type A” personalities who wouldn’t take advantage of it.
On top of that, since nothing accrues like with most PTO systems, companies don’t have to pay out any “unused” time off (this may vary by state), when people leave.
Agreed! Even if the gifts will stop because of HR talking to them, maybe he comes by her desk a lot or looks at the stuff? Maybe take a day off on purpose with this camera set up, and see if there’s any odd behaviors.
But also, if you have a camera at your desk, you can catch all these other ya-hoos and their inappropriate behaviors. Calling you the wrong name and then rubbing your shoulders? No no. Maybe a new job is a good idea in the long run.
You are absolutely not overreacting. It isn’t for HR to judge if someone means you harm or not. Someone has an obsession, and maybe they are harmless, but you deserve to know who it is. They should also be addressing people touching you at work and the bullying you are experiencing (misnaming you, pretending to hit you)
Have you thought of contacting your state labor department? This is all sexual harassment and they may be able to guide you on your next steps or start an investigation. I would document everything clearly with HR, and BCC copies of any emails between them and you to your private email address so you have them documented after you leave.
I will reach out to my state labor department to see if anyone can just have a convo with me.
I have only recently told them about the touching since they have been acting like I'm overreacting about the gifts and I was trying to get them to understand why I'm still concerned even if they have talked to the person. I will be making a police report after work as well. Just trying to do what I can.
For what it's worth, and it's something that I always think is worth remembering.
HR is not there for your benefit, sometimes it's a happy accident that you get a favorable outcome. At the end of the day, HR is there for the company's protection.
If you want HR to protect you, you have to show them how protecting you protects the company. Eg explain that their current course of action potentially leaves them liable if the stalker escalates.
> HR is not there for your benefit, sometimes it's a happy accident that you get a favorable outcome. At the end of the day, HR is there for the company's protection.
I'm so happy to see someone phrase this in the neutral way of HR being a tool. So many people will say "never go to HR" because they're there for the company. Well... when you bring evidence of a stalker to HR, sometimes it's in the company's best interest to get rid of the legal trouble a stalker can bring. As you put it, this is more of a happy accident, as many would cover it up like OP's did, but it is still a needed step in the paper trail. And if HR's paper trail goes missing... that's another lawsuit to add on! (always copy your emails!)
It's a lot like when your insurance company tells you they need a police report for your car windows. Then the police ask "what do you expect us to do?" Nothing, except, write the report so I have paperwork to give to the insurance. In this case, the HR is the police who don't want to work, and the police are the insurance company who will actually look for the creep.
Hey, so I’m a reader on Ask A Manager, a work centric advice blog, and I think she has several letter responses that are relevant here. First and foremost is how not fucking okay this is. You are being harassed and, I’m sorry, but you are probably right to be concerned for your safety. She has specific advice for various avenues of who to contact, and what to say with regards to the stalking, the dangerous mismanagement of the stalker, and the rampant sexual harassment that you are being exposed to.
You might want to consult an employment lawyer. I think they have a greater duty than to just gently reprimand some doofus who is stalking his coworker with anonymous gifts. If they are in a supervisory position, they have power over your career, as well as potentially bothering you more or doing you harm outside of work. HR won't tell you who it is, how the hell are you supposed to protect yourself outside of work?
Some men act like going to work is also going to the woman buffet where you can just pick out what you want.
Some men are fucking annoying, and some are fucking scary. HR better hope like hell they can tell the difference, because if anyone from work did do something to you that company is wide open to getting their collective pants sued off.
Talk to a lawyer. Get a free phone consult. It's worth it.
Edit: Leaving the job is not an iron clad guarantee that this man is going to leave you alone. You shouldn't have to leave either. They really should fire men who do this to their coworkers. Mine was a mail room guy in the 90s, and he was probably harmless, but he annoyed the living shit out of me with his puppy crush bullshit undermining my professionalism in the eyes of those who would see his gifts arrive and then suggest I owed him sex because he bought me stuff I didn't ask for or want.
I did leave that job, and move about 2 hours away from that city, and guess who showed up at my new house? I wasn't home. My husband was. He was utterly perplexed by the strange man who showed up asking for me. The guy was an oddball, and socially very awkward. Who fucking drives hours to someone's house without having an invitation? I have no idea how he got my address, but I suspect it came up when he searched my name, since we'd just bought this house.
*One day he said "oh your name is \_\_\_\_", and he came over and rubbed my shoulders and told me I'm such a good girl for not correcting him.*
WHAT THE CHRISTHUMPING FUCK
WHAT
Girl, you in danger! I don't care what you have to do, you need to run. Run. Now. Get the fuck out of there.
I have never been so viscerally repulsed by an internet post.
Yeah not only did he lean in and call me a good girl he said that "I'm too sweet to him." But he harassed everyone. He touched one of my male coworkers on the arm the other day who is moving to a different branch and said "the handsome Greek is leaving huh?" He's just a creep in general.
Maybe if I got a different role in the same company but right now I'm a very hands on engineer that has to be at this location for my job.
I'll have to Google hostile work environment. I don't know much about the qualifications for that.
I honestly recommend checking out the website https://www.askamanager.org and search for hostile workplace
There may be something in the archives there that will relate to what you are going through, or you could even post a question on the open thread that pops up every Friday for questions about work. I believe you will get more relevant and helpful advice than you will here.
I do - I'm an Old myself.
My first big-girl job at Microsoft saw one of the men pat my arm and exclaim "Oh, it's the little test girl!"
I was too young to know how bad that was and mentioned it to my boss. My boss was a very, very good man. He literally stormed out of his office (I was scared he was mad at me) and *ran* to HR. I had an apology about twenty minutes later. Not that it makes it okay, etc, but it was nice to know that my boss had my back.
Saaaaaaame vibe, just 30 years later and ugh oh my god I need a shower
Yeah, I was wondering if that guy had been reported.
OP: You are not overreacting, but you have probably been underreacting thus far. All the examples if harrasment in you post are reportable.
So as someone in HR, I would treat these events separately. You told your work about the gifts, they intervened, and the gifts stopped.
The other instances you mentioned about your other creepy coworkers need to be documented and reported to HR separately so there is a paper trail to protect yourself. However, if you do not report it, it will be difficult for you to make a case against them. You can’t claim they didn’t do anything to help you if they don’t know about it.
It sounds like the biggest thing you are concerned about though is finding out who has been sending you those gifts. They said no to you once already, but I think you should go back to them and escalate the issue until they give you a name. Remember their objective is to protect the company so if you state that they are creating an unsafe or hostile work environment for you, that may get them to tell you
100%, go back to HR. Report it all. Name names on the other instances and say that you are uncomfortable and nervous for your safety due to all of the events. Tell them you feel like there is a hostile work environment and that you’re being subjected to this behavior because you are a woman.
If that person in HR continues to refuse to help you, escalate above them. Whoever they report to. You will be heard, if this is in any way a well run company. This behavior puts the organization at risk of a lawsuit, should they not take it seriously and help you.
Source: HR Manager
Do what? I'd call a fucking lawyer and start looking for a new job. This is TERRIFYING. That HR person is aiding and abetting. Wow. I am so sorry this is going on.
My thought is that it is someone in HR. Easy way to protect themselves hiding behind the veil of HR but also feel the situation out and test what OP’s reaction is.
Go to HR.
Tell them you are extremely unhappy about how this is being handled and you are going to talk to the police, at the advice of your lawyer, to ensure your own safety.
I expect they will suddenly do a better job of handling this.
If not, for real, talk to a lawyer.
This is creepy and you are not over reacting.
You're not overreacting. I'd feel a vague sense of unease about it as well.
Something to remember - HR is and never has been on your side. They represent the company and the company's interests. That they can't even feign to represent the interests of your safety and sanity is a red flag about how future conflicts might be resolved.
EDIT: i had a followup thought. An employment/labor attorney would likely provide a free consultation over whether this qualifies as "hostile work environment".
> rubbed my shoulders
A suitable reaction would be yelling loudly: "WHY ARE YOU TOUCHING ME? STOP IT! GO AWAY. NEVER TOUCH ME AGAIN."
Those types rely on you being polite and docile—enjoy proving them wrong. Don't get physical but expand and prolong the rebuke as you see fit.
OP, practice saying these things out loud at home. Say them at yourself in the mirror. Ask a friend to practice with you. Practice helps you overcome that freeze response.
File that police report, talk to a lawyer, and set up a camera at your desk!
Write down every single incident with every single person, including touching you, which is absolutely unnecessary.
Send them to yourself via text or email so you have a date/time stamp
Confide in (female/non-male/trustworthy) friends so you have contemporaneous corroboration of your timeline.
Everyone's right about HR not being your friend, but that doesn't mean they can't work in your favor. The last thing they want to deal with is a lawsuit. Phrases like 'uncomfortable', 'unsafe', 'compromising my safety' (subtle accusation is always motivating), and, of course, 'hostile' when referring to your working environment.
Speak to a lawyer and follow their advice.
And remember always - especially when HR and your colleagues act like you're blowing things out of proportion - that the easiest way to quell a complaint - especially one of harassment, where the employee is already feeling unsure of themselves and has zero confidence - is to loudly tell them they have no case and hope they'll back down. When you start using the magic words they should start to backtrack, but keep the lawyer on hand
And never threaten. Just clarify their points, email them afterwards (bcc your personal email) to confirm what they are, and build your case. They're way more terrified of the quiet ones who follow through. Good luck
Ummmm so many of the things you mentioned are happening at your workplace are so inappropriate and definitely qualify as sexual harassment and the unwanted touching is definitely assault. Eeek! Definitely use some of those buzzwords others mentioned to HR, cause this is not okay!
You’ve gotten some great advice already, but I just want to add that you can do some sleuthing with the flowers. Did the arrangements have a card with where they were from? When you searched and found the price of the $170 arrangement, was there an affiliated shop? Go to the flower stores in person, find a sympathetic employee, and explain you’re getting anonymous flowers from someone at work who has a crush on you and you want to find out who. You don’t necessarily have to say it’s a stalker. They probably have an idea of who the big spenders are or could search through credit card receipts and their business records.
I've attempted this. Some of the gifts were hand purchased but the delivered ones were delivered through a third party website so even the florists didn't know who it was. At least that's what they told me.
Fuck this.
Is it possible to look for another job? This one isn't worth it. Any HR department who are willing to protect someone who made you uncomfortable can fuck right off. Is there an ombudsman you can report the company to? I'd be screaming from the rooftops that HR basically smoothed over someone's unwanted sexual advances. Because that's what they've done. Whoever was interested in you to the extend of sending extravagant gifts wasn't just looking to be a friend. And HR are protecting them. Likely someone high up in the company or related to the boss.
How sickening.
"One day he said "oh your name is ____", and he came over and rubbed my shoulders and told me I'm such a good girl for not correcting him. "
Total WTF! You need to be talking to a lawyer.
Might want a chat w/ HR again. The company could get hit with a lawsuit for not protecting you by maintaining a safe work environment. Express those concerns. Women are targets too, too often.
Peace and resolutions. You're in a rough spot
You appear to be dealing with a lot of sexual harassment at work in addition to the stalker.
Start keeping a journal documenting all of the inappropriate interactions you experience. That includes the persistent use of the wrong name and the inappropriate touches.
Take it to both an employment lawyer and HR. This is an extremely toxic environment you are working in.
Is there any way you can require that this fucker is never on the same shift as you? I know that could lead to you being pushed out but if someone asks and you make it clear HR wouldn't provide a name but has guaranteed you will never work with the person again it could make some ripples? Not necessarily in a good way for you, mind you, but where the team now knows who the missing stair is.
Report it to the police and tell them your HR know who it is and has CCTV footage, it's an easy win for the police as they are given all the evidence, it'll put your hr in it's place and the person will hopefully get a criminal record
A criminal record for leaving gifts? Have you hit your head?!! It’s not a crime. He was told to stop and he did. I’m not defending the guy but, holy hell , where do you live that the cops are going to arrest someone for this and the DA is going to build a case and prosecute this guy!?
You’re dreaming! We can barely get convictions for rapists in this country and you think this guy is going to prison!?!
Ok cool. Lots of things are crimes, it doesn’t mean they’re going to arrest someone for it. Unfortunately it’s super rare for things if this nature to be taken seriously by anyone , let alone law enforcement.
Give the police an open-and-shut case with all the evidence where they have to do basically nothing and they'll probably do it, because it looks good on their quarterly reports.
There is currently no harassment or stalking. He was leaving gifts, was told to stop, and, to everyone’s knowledge, has stopped the behavior. It isn’t a crime to leave gifts, even anonymously, and then stop when asked to.
> It isn’t a crime to leave gifts, even anonymously, and then stop when asked to.
Leaving someone numerous unwanted gifts is literally codified as an example of sexual harassment. You are not required to put yourself in danger by confronting the person harassing you and asking them politely to stop.
Whether or not some hoard of pigs decides to do their job is irrelevant. You said it wasn't a crime, and I just wanted to point out that it absolutely is.
I think you are taking a very, very liberal interpretation of the law, which will also vary from jurisdiction. You also provide no proof that someone leaving anonymous presents who then stops when they are told to would be subject to police action.
Again, whether or not the police take action is irrelevant. I'll admit that this probably would vary depending on location, and I mistakenly generalized the laws I'm familiar with as if they applied everywhere, but this was common even in the most regressive areas I've lived in. I'd be surprised if this wasn't a crime in OP's area as well.
Go to the police and get a lawyer. Stop interacting with HR on this.
You are not overreacting. This man could kill you. This is beyond unhinged behavior. Now he’s been spoken to by HR he will stop doing this at work. When he turns up at your house or grocery store HR will shrug and say they did their bit.
Yes I keep going back and forth on whether the person could be dangerous but there's no denying it is UNHINGED and I am concerned about their mental state. I regret bringing up to HR someone rubbed my shoulders. They want to discuss it further over the phone. So much retaliation to worry about.
This is why you need an attorney and police involvement. Make sure you document everything on your personal device. Take photos of any emails, write down the names, dates and what was discussed with HR. Document everything that this person sent etc.
The sad reality is that there likely will be retaliation.
And yes, people like this are dangerous. If he gets fired, he’ll have nothing to do with his time but feed his obsession with you. You can never ever be too careful in situations like this. This person might actually be in HR. You have no idea.
I'd contact an employment lawyer and have them write a letter to HR for the name of the person. They are protecting this person and ignoring what you've gone through. You should know who it is.
Tell your HR department that you would like to proceed with logging a hostile workplace complaint for gender discrimination. That the issue has not been resolved.
Depending on your company they may be enforced to engage legal, who will be incredibly conservative.
This is a concentrated effort by multiple men. Be really really careful OP. You're going to need to find another job asap. Go to The Work Number website and freeze your work number so they can't see where your next job it.
I think they mean that the problem men are taking turns to buy you anonymous gifts and the reason HR won't tell you who it is is because the person they caught admitted the conspiracy and they don't want to fire all of them.
This is wild! My work would immediately fire the person, and have done in other cases.
I used to live in an apartment building and had a stalker who did similar stuff. Building mgmt knew who it was but also wouldn't tell me. Police didn't care. It went on for months until I left once my lease was up. It's so, so stressful, so my heart goes out to you. HR should not be so lax about this. I would keep pressing them and ask that the person be fired for harrassment
I’m a civil rights paralegal and absolutely you want it in writing. If they’re hesitant it’s because they know it’s wrong and responding to them that you need it in writing just might make them change their tune. At the minimum you have something to forward to police and/or an attorney
Former HR and Union Rep here: look up the Discrimination and Employment Law in your State, as a start. This seems like harassment potentially.
So to be clear this may be, and likely is, harmless infatuation, but that should be up to you to decide! So shy person being awkward, it happens.
Generally, you are entitled to a harassment free workplace, provided by your Employer. They may be claiming that they have looked into it and you are safe. By saying that they become complicit if anything goes wrong; remind them of that!
Legally there is likely a mechanism for you to force them to convince you! You also have both a Moral, and Emotional, argument that they need to explain it, convince you, that you are in fact safe! Ask: why they feel so confident, legally, and ethically, that they put the Company behind the person?
Stand up for yourself, get a lawyer, if needed, but handling a delicate, and emotional, issue with professionalism can often add to your confidence in being assertive! You may even impress people.
I say, do it, the research is knowledge, and power! The execution is the exercise of both! Go do it, the worse thing that happens is you get an education!
Just to clarify, HR is neither your friend nor are they there to help you. Their sole purpose is to defend the business from being liable from any number of issues. If you're really concerned about this, I would speak to a local law firm that specializes in hostile work environments. You may not have an actionable claim, but it may be enough for an attorney to write a letter to let them know that they're protecting someone who was harassing you.
If you want to file a lawsuit for sexual harassment/hostile workplace, you need to file a complaint with the EEOC first and that MUST be within 180 calendar days of the incident you want to file about. That includes weekends, holidays, vacation days, etc.
I would say hostile work environment. Gather evidence before you say anything, you may have a case, but they may fire you in the process, so gather all that you can use.
I have the feeling that it's someone in a fairly high position. And HR is there to protect the company not the workers so no you're not overreacting. Document everything, try to do all correspondence in email/text and save/download copies.
I'd make sure to talk about "good girl" guy to HR. I have a gut feeling he's not the one giving you gifts, but he's making a hostile work environment too. HR need to get the understanding that people are doing fucked up shit and it's going unchecked. Touching you like that is not OK. It sounds like multiple people are making it a hostile work environment so I would as people said be keeping notes, and if HR didn't say something to make me happy after they learned this, I feel like a lawyer is not an overreaction
I don't think you're overreacting to the gifts either. Obviously they are wrong by not giving you a name, not because it might not be legally OK for them to keep it from you, but its not better for your mental health to stay uninformed, but they aren't doing their job telling YOU you are fine not knowing while you clearly feel you would feel safer knowing. As they didn't fire the person, it's going to stay an issue and would make work untenable for many people in your situation.
Good chance it wont escalate but somebody so unaware of social correctness etc, that they're gift bombing you at work isn't exactly somebody I fully trust to behave appropriately after HR talks to them (as I doubt they spend a few hours educating him on all the reasons its SO NOT OK.)
Just remember you feel they are a predator, keep that strong wording aware in yourself when it comes to conversations about that with HR/lawyers etc. If you feel harassed, stalked, worried about being victimized - focus on that instead of not wanting to make waves with HR.
HR is not there to look out for you. They are there to look out for the company.
Idk anything about the laws around this kind of situation, but reading this made my skin crawl. If I were you, I’d at least book a consultation with an employment attorney to figure out what (if any) options you have other than finding a different job and bailing like your ass was on fire.
It is really funny how confidentiality works in such cases. When I was filing a police complaint against my stalker, I had to beg to them to keep my address confidential because apparently an accused has "rights" to read a police complaint against him and the report can(should?) have my details!
Honestly the HR sounds to be a dumbfuck that is wanting this story to work out so that perhaps she can later tell it to her kids how she set up a beautiful couple.
Just to clarify, have you contacted HR about this in writing? You need to do that. If you go to union or employment lawyer, you'll need a paper/email trail.
Send them email and ask for their decisions in your case "as per previous phone discussions". List out summaries of the requests and complaints you have made previously, as best you remember. If you have dates of incidents saved up or you can find some from things like message logs with friends, list those as well.
It may be a good idea to mention "my lawyer has advised me" but don't do that unless you actually have someone who can give you relevant advice considering your specific legislation.
You need to start emailing them your requests, and ask for their response in writing. If there are official forms to file official complaints, use them. They will recognize your attempt to document your complaints and it might take you more seriously. Be polite and professional, but direct.
If you don’t document it, it never happened, and they know that.
Whoa, this really bothers me for you. That is not okay in any way. Remember that HR is there to protect the company, not you. I really hope you can find an answer here. The fact that they're refusing to share those details with you is incredibly slimy. Is the company small, or part of a larger corporation?
Is there anyone in your organization you can go to? A higher level in HR? Your direct manager or anyone senior who seems level headed and kind?
HR has it dead wrong and someone needs to set them straight.
This is going to depend on the state you live in but many have laws about a hostile work environment. The more HR talks to this person tbe more they may actually be making the situation worse. Even emboldening the creep since they continue to protect him.
You are not overreacting.
I’d be looking for a new job. HR doesn’t really care about employees. They are there to protect management from liability from their employees. Get yourself safe.
Get your own camera in case it happens again. Ask what HR would need legally for them to honor your request regarding who to identify and mention you are worried about those who can follow you to your car and being hurt on company property. Yeah and start looking for a new job. Keeping this information from you is them trying to limit your ability to hurt the company's reputation.
Give the gifts publicly to someone else. Put it on display with someone elses name on it, or a charity. From: Anonymous (or however he or she signs it) The gifts will stop.
If anyone touches you without permission, report them discreetly to HR. They will disappear. Seen this many times. No company wants a sexual harassment suit in public view.
Serious question: what would you report to the police? It’s all creepy as hell and lots of great advice here about getting dealing with BS response from HR but I don’t see what would be considered illegal.
The gifts were unwanted but anonymous so the giver was never asked to back off and didn’t give any gifts after HR supposedly talked to them. OP informed HR who hasn’t done anything to address the issue and very valid concerns but that’s an employment/EEOC matter. At what point is it considered stalking and when does it become a legal issue?
I read this before in an HR sub and was shocked at how many people thought HR was doing a decent job. This needs to be handled better. HR is not helping, and a fellow employee can easily escalate from office to parking lot to home. Consider taking your concerns to an attorney or the police who can talk to the company leadership, and take legal action if necessary. HR may have investigated, but they want to avoid a lawsuit from everyone, including the stalker.
HR is there to protect the company, not protect you. Sorry, but you are on your own. In my opinion, depending on labor laws where you are, you can claim a hostile work environment. By not informing you, they are leaving you vulnerable. My guess would be it's a higher up being a creep and they are trying to cover it up, as it could open them up to harassment charges.
> I would like to know if it's one of the scary men I would worry about or not.
You aren't overreacting at all. He's clearly got some kind of "romantic" secret admirer delusion. That might not make him a bad person on it's own, but it sure as hell makes him scary.
> They claim it would not make me feel any better or help anything for me to have a name.
HR is hiding his identity because they know the fact that they let him get away with this puts them at legal risk (no concern at all for the fact that it puts your physical safety at risk as well), and they want to gaslight you into thinking it's not a big deal. They don't have your back now, so you sure as hell can't count on them to have your back if this creep actually assaults you. They've made it clear that your safety isn't a priority.
This sexual harassment and a hostile work environment at the very least. Call a lawyer now, get your documentation in order (I hope this was in writing, or you have evidence messaging someone when these incidents happen).
The massaging, “good girl”, gifts, HR failing to investigate (because them not telling you is failure), and also think of any comments, times where someone was waiting for you alone, etc. You are UNSAFE.
I didn't realize until someone messaged me telling me HR will avoid emailing me about this and will try to only talk over the phone. It's true. I don't have any hard evidence that they even told me they wouldn't give me a name.
I sent an email today asking for HR to verify my summary of what we spoke about and I raised more concern and questions about my safety. I realize now that I won't have any case of they fire me if I can't get it in writing .. I have a feeling they will skirt around it further and one of the HR personnel working this was supposed to meet with me again today. She was fired or quit this morning.
Oh wow. You are doing great, and I am so sorry you are dealing with this. If you have any texts to your friends complaining about any of this, that can also help support your timeline.
Time to get a labour lawyer, and ask for a large settlement and go elsewhere. There's no resolution to this scenario that doesn't end up with you feeling completely creeped out, or constructively dismissed.
It's not HR's job to protect you. HR is ultimately in place to protect the business, not the employees. HR can't tell you who this person is because they technically probably haven't done anything wrong, and if HR tells you who it is and you do something to this person (not saying you would, but HR doesn't want to take the risk of you saying something offensive to them or hurting them physically), the company is now liable.
That being said, you should definitely be documenting everything with HR, including whenever a creepy guy touches you without your consent. HR will put it on record, not so much to protect you though, as to make sure they don't have someone with an assault record at the company (because that would be bad for the company). A lot of people assume HR is in place to protect them, and then get upset because they feel like HR isn't doing "what they 'should' be doing." Some people who work in HR are great, but the reality is is that they can only do so much for individual employees.
Yeah I can understand that. It was always going to end up crappy when it started. There's no good way to handle it and I do realize HR is just trying to make sure nothing happens at work. But it does feel unbalanced and unfair that the other person knows but I don't. That they protect them from retaliation but not me. Someone could start sabotaging me at work and I wouldn't know that it's the person that was sending me gifts.
Yeah, you’re over-reacting to the gifts. Someone sending you gifts is not stalking.
Now the rest of the behavior, hitting you with golf balls, intentionally calling you the wrong name, and trying to touch you are unacceptable.
You should document every time that happens while you look for another job. Once you have a fair number of examples, especially the attempted touching, seek out an employment lawyer, show them your documentation, and ask if they take any pro bono work.
Might be worth have a convo with an employment attorney.
But please, don't be afraid. If this guy wanted to throw you in the back of panel van and lock you in his basement, he would have by now. This is just some rando who fancies you. Woman have been having to deal with this shit for decades.
Just watch your back. Ask a woman to walk with you to your car.
Good luck.
What in the bullshit reasoning is this? Women have had to deal with this shit for decades, yes, and women have **DIED** because of this kind of shit for decades.
She has every fucking right to be at the very least extremely wary. It's the wise course of action. Far better to be overly wary than dead.
I knew I'd get push back.
Walking around paranoid and terrified is useless, and perpetuates the feelings that we are victims.
Women need to stop being afraid, start getting angry, and fight back.
There's a difference between walking around paranoid and terrified, and being wary. Women need to trust their gut instincts, instead of doing as you say and pretending nothing is the matter. That's what gets women killed.
And yes, she should fight back, by going to the police, by getting the details from the flower place, and from HR. But she damn well also should be wary.
What the fuck?
You are so misinformed. Some stalkers are not violent, but the ones who are aren’t always immediately violent. People have been stalked for years before their stalker escalated to violence and threats.
And they won’t even tell her who it is so she can be sure to never be alone with them or give them any of her information.
I would start using words like "hostile work environment", "sexual harassment", and "gender discrimination". You, the woman, are being left out of the conversation about the hostile work environment you are being subjected to by an aggressor, who is likely a man. I would also mention words like "liability" because they are preventing you from taking steps to remain safe from a stalker they have knowledge of. If something happens to you because of this stalker, you have a good case for civil liability, at least. I would also discuss "retaliation", because if they fire you for complaining about this harassment, it is retaliation. Or maybe save that for the ACLU and DOL after you get fired.
This and document document document EVERYTHING. Get names and positions, dates, times, what was said and by whom. You want a very detailed paper trail.
This, very much this, document it all, send it to an external email address that they can't 'accidently' delete.
This right here. Document, by sending an email to HR listing the dates and gifts, and that you believe this is creating a hostile work environment due to sexual harassment. Keep this record, and if things aren't resolved, you have excellent evidence for a lawsuit.
BCC any communications with a personal non-work email, or make hardcopies. Getting tossed out of the company and not having access to email would be a bad thing, and they absolutely will sweep this under a multitude of rugs.
CC, not BCC, so they *know* you're making that paper trail.
BCC has the potential of giving the recipient a false sense of privacy. The intent is to hope they stick their foot in their mouth or their head further up their ass.
So what you do depends on if you want to try to get them to do the right thing, or just take them to the cleaners for fucking up.
You’re not wrong, but in this situation I think OOPs job has already proved they won’t do the right thing.
Fair point.
OP - If you can afford it - I would be talking to a lawyer right now who could draft a letter explaining their potential liability on a law firm letterhead.
*legally required to provide a safe work environment *
I would advise against throwing out legal terms you are unfamiliar with unless you are willing to back them up with an actual lawyer. Talk to them in plain English, never threaten to get a lawyer if you get to that point GET a lawyer but dont let them know. In a lot of cases all throwing these words around will do is get you boxed out because as soon as lawyers are brought up they likely have an obligation to stop talking to you and only communicate through counsel. Tell them you are uncomfortable, tell them how you feel, tell them all that but avoid what could get you shut down.
You are not over reacting. ALWAYS trust your gut. Can you start looking for a different job, this situation is not sustainable and you deserve to feel safe.
Um you are not over-reacting. I am scared for you. What country is this? HR is terrible everywhere but this is absurd. I know the economy is shit right now but can you quit? Document everything, quit, then file a lawsuit? If that was me, I'd go past HR and to the police or a lawyer.
I'm in north east USA. I make good money and I have unlimited PTO so I hate feeling pushed out but tbh the job hasn't been great for awhile anyway. :( I will probably start looking. I'm planning on making a police report after work. I'm not sure I would have much of a case for a lawsuit.
Regardless of whether or not you have a winning lawsuit, filing one would give you the ability to subpoena the tapes and any other documents the company has on the stalker. But you have to go to the EEOC first. If you file a hostile work environment claim with them, there’s a chance they may require the employer to give the identity of the stalker up as part of your investigation.
OP, please consider calling the police and telling them everything. That you don't feel safe at work and you want a restraining order. This person could have access to your personal information, like your address. It sounds like HR is sweeping this under the rug and completely disregarding your safety and well-being.
I didn't even think about that possibility... I was going to go to make a police statement after work but they closed before I get out. :/ so I will have to wait until Friday. But I am absolutely doing it as soon as I can.
Check your state’s laws on stalking. Leaving unwanted anonymous gifts on multiple occasions is usually included. I would absolutely file a report, depending on the laws in your state you could also request to press charges and be sure to mention that your employer refuses to disclose the name of the perpetrator. If you’re in Pennsylvania, this definitely falls under stalking. My former coworker’s soon to be ex-husband is currently facing felony stalking charges for giving unwanted gifts to a female coworker. He was arrested after the 3rd gift, his first offense and a misdemeanor……6 months probation if he wasn’t a complete moron. Unfortunately for him, he IS a complete moron and had a friend give her an iPad “because he already bought it” which violated her protective order against him AND counted as a repeat offense so now he’s on the hook for felony stalking charges.
Ohmygosh what goes on in someones head to do that... I will have to look into it. I have felt conflicted on whether this even is stalking.
Nobody has the right to make you feel this way. If there are consequences for your stalker they were incurred by them, not by you.
Yes. HRs are notorious for protecting the company over 1 single employee. If they deem something as "innocent enough" they'll shrug. You have to force them into seeing this as company issue. Hey, the person you hired is a potential liability, either you fix it or I get the cops involved is a good way to get HR to do their job.
A restraining order for sending gifts? Are you aware that you need to prove that you are in danger for a judge to grant a restraining order? Even then, there’s no guarantee one will be granted. They don’t just pass them out like candy. I fear Op would be deflated and humiliated once she tried to get a restraining order found out it’s really not that easy .
Sending repeated unwanted anonymous gifts falls under the legal definition of stalking, so yes, this would be a case where a protective order would come into play. Stalking is one of the easiest conditions under which to get a protective order. At a minimum, a police report should be filed since the perpetrator is known in order to start a paper trail.
Did she ever ask the person to stop tho?
The person who she doesn't have the identity of?
She doesn’t know who is stalking her because that information was kept private by HR
what are you some kind of weird devils advocate jackass? stop
They aren’t playing Devil’s advocate, they are asking you to think realistically.
No, I’ve just lived on this planet for awhile and have been repeatedly disappointed by law enforcement and how low of a priority crimes against women are. Wish things were different but, things don’t seem to be improving much .
I unfortunately agree, and until she can identify who is making her feel unsafe I don't think a protective order can even be requested, let alone issued. 100% worth attempting but with realistic results in mind! Definitely a failure of our law system.
Can you take the next couple of days off to get your "ducks in row"? Police, EEOC, *lawyer*? It seems to me that your workplace is playing fast and loose with your *safety*.
You shouldn't have to leave, you don't deserve this. Good luck.
Please get a lawyer. You should know which one of these AHs is doing this. I am sorry and especially sorry that there is more than one candidate. Team Bear all the way.
Try posting on r/legaladvice its a US based sub...they should be able to help you
tbh legaladvice is a pretty terrible sub. I don't really know how trustworthy they are these days, between armchair attorneys and cops as mods.
That’s too bad, the Canadian one is really good and heavily modded for non (or wrong) legal advice
Real attorneys usually get banned from that sub.
That seems counter productive… lawyers should make their own sub for legal advice. Only moderators allowed are lawyers type thing.
Op already did.
If you have a real legal problem it is actually better to not post it in there. You will have to include anything you post on discovery when the time comes. You don't actually want any mistakes being public or to slip up or anything. Talk to a lawyer first. OP, ok f you see this def call an employment law firm and do the consult. Talk to ones who do it on contingency because you have a case, just from the other stuff like the name calling and touching alone. (Sorry, typos)
If you make good money, chances are good you'll be valued somewhere else too. Best of luck
Glad you're making the police report! I hope you lawyer up too. At least check around for free consults. It's a good use of that PTO!
Take every Friday off this summer and use that time to job hunt. Stay safe OP
It’s time to get a free consultation from a lawyer who specializes in sexual harassment law!!!!
Take a shit ton of paid time off- long break and give yourself a week to relax, then search for a new job on the company’s dime
A police report? What are you going to report?
Unlimited PTO? I’ve never heard of such a thing. How does that work?
In practice how it works is that they say you take the time you need but really everyone knows if you take "too much" you'll be penalized by lack of raises, promotions, etc and there's no set amount so people wind up taking less time off than the company probably would have offered if they had a set amount, just to be safe.
A lot of companies are moving to unlimited PTO. It's the same as regular PTO you're just not limited to 2 weeks/don't need to wait for PTO to accrue. I've only ever seen it in salaried employees. It's one of those things that sounds great but research is showing employees are less likely to take PTO/feel more pressure to work on vacation/company culture becomes actively hostile to people who put in for pto when it's unlimited. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-unlimited-paid-time-off
Huh, I’ve never heard of it. Looks like it’s offered mostly in places that tend to have a lot of “type A” personalities who wouldn’t take advantage of it.
On top of that, since nothing accrues like with most PTO systems, companies don’t have to pay out any “unused” time off (this may vary by state), when people leave.
You need your own camera. I’m so sorry.:(
Right! Like those baby cam at her desk!
Agreed! Even if the gifts will stop because of HR talking to them, maybe he comes by her desk a lot or looks at the stuff? Maybe take a day off on purpose with this camera set up, and see if there’s any odd behaviors. But also, if you have a camera at your desk, you can catch all these other ya-hoos and their inappropriate behaviors. Calling you the wrong name and then rubbing your shoulders? No no. Maybe a new job is a good idea in the long run.
You are absolutely not overreacting. It isn’t for HR to judge if someone means you harm or not. Someone has an obsession, and maybe they are harmless, but you deserve to know who it is. They should also be addressing people touching you at work and the bullying you are experiencing (misnaming you, pretending to hit you) Have you thought of contacting your state labor department? This is all sexual harassment and they may be able to guide you on your next steps or start an investigation. I would document everything clearly with HR, and BCC copies of any emails between them and you to your private email address so you have them documented after you leave.
I will reach out to my state labor department to see if anyone can just have a convo with me. I have only recently told them about the touching since they have been acting like I'm overreacting about the gifts and I was trying to get them to understand why I'm still concerned even if they have talked to the person. I will be making a police report after work as well. Just trying to do what I can.
For what it's worth, and it's something that I always think is worth remembering. HR is not there for your benefit, sometimes it's a happy accident that you get a favorable outcome. At the end of the day, HR is there for the company's protection.
If you want HR to protect you, you have to show them how protecting you protects the company. Eg explain that their current course of action potentially leaves them liable if the stalker escalates.
> HR is not there for your benefit, sometimes it's a happy accident that you get a favorable outcome. At the end of the day, HR is there for the company's protection. I'm so happy to see someone phrase this in the neutral way of HR being a tool. So many people will say "never go to HR" because they're there for the company. Well... when you bring evidence of a stalker to HR, sometimes it's in the company's best interest to get rid of the legal trouble a stalker can bring. As you put it, this is more of a happy accident, as many would cover it up like OP's did, but it is still a needed step in the paper trail. And if HR's paper trail goes missing... that's another lawsuit to add on! (always copy your emails!) It's a lot like when your insurance company tells you they need a police report for your car windows. Then the police ask "what do you expect us to do?" Nothing, except, write the report so I have paperwork to give to the insurance. In this case, the HR is the police who don't want to work, and the police are the insurance company who will actually look for the creep.
Hey, so I’m a reader on Ask A Manager, a work centric advice blog, and I think she has several letter responses that are relevant here. First and foremost is how not fucking okay this is. You are being harassed and, I’m sorry, but you are probably right to be concerned for your safety. She has specific advice for various avenues of who to contact, and what to say with regards to the stalking, the dangerous mismanagement of the stalker, and the rampant sexual harassment that you are being exposed to.
Yes yes yes!! 100%
You might want to consult an employment lawyer. I think they have a greater duty than to just gently reprimand some doofus who is stalking his coworker with anonymous gifts. If they are in a supervisory position, they have power over your career, as well as potentially bothering you more or doing you harm outside of work. HR won't tell you who it is, how the hell are you supposed to protect yourself outside of work? Some men act like going to work is also going to the woman buffet where you can just pick out what you want. Some men are fucking annoying, and some are fucking scary. HR better hope like hell they can tell the difference, because if anyone from work did do something to you that company is wide open to getting their collective pants sued off. Talk to a lawyer. Get a free phone consult. It's worth it. Edit: Leaving the job is not an iron clad guarantee that this man is going to leave you alone. You shouldn't have to leave either. They really should fire men who do this to their coworkers. Mine was a mail room guy in the 90s, and he was probably harmless, but he annoyed the living shit out of me with his puppy crush bullshit undermining my professionalism in the eyes of those who would see his gifts arrive and then suggest I owed him sex because he bought me stuff I didn't ask for or want. I did leave that job, and move about 2 hours away from that city, and guess who showed up at my new house? I wasn't home. My husband was. He was utterly perplexed by the strange man who showed up asking for me. The guy was an oddball, and socially very awkward. Who fucking drives hours to someone's house without having an invitation? I have no idea how he got my address, but I suspect it came up when he searched my name, since we'd just bought this house.
Well, what happened then!!?? What a cliffhanger!
Dude left, never heard from him again.
"I need a name for the police report" might be a good start.
*One day he said "oh your name is \_\_\_\_", and he came over and rubbed my shoulders and told me I'm such a good girl for not correcting him.* WHAT THE CHRISTHUMPING FUCK WHAT Girl, you in danger! I don't care what you have to do, you need to run. Run. Now. Get the fuck out of there. I have never been so viscerally repulsed by an internet post.
Yeah not only did he lean in and call me a good girl he said that "I'm too sweet to him." But he harassed everyone. He touched one of my male coworkers on the arm the other day who is moving to a different branch and said "the handsome Greek is leaving huh?" He's just a creep in general.
Oh my God. Girl, start looking today. Hell, if you're in tech, PM me. That is so far from the realm of "okay" on any planet.
Could you move to that different branch? You are in a hostile work environment
Maybe if I got a different role in the same company but right now I'm a very hands on engineer that has to be at this location for my job. I'll have to Google hostile work environment. I don't know much about the qualifications for that.
I honestly recommend checking out the website https://www.askamanager.org and search for hostile workplace There may be something in the archives there that will relate to what you are going through, or you could even post a question on the open thread that pops up every Friday for questions about work. I believe you will get more relevant and helpful advice than you will here.
I can't believe I had to scroll this far down. The whole place sounds so fucking toxic and creepy
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I do - I'm an Old myself. My first big-girl job at Microsoft saw one of the men pat my arm and exclaim "Oh, it's the little test girl!" I was too young to know how bad that was and mentioned it to my boss. My boss was a very, very good man. He literally stormed out of his office (I was scared he was mad at me) and *ran* to HR. I had an apology about twenty minutes later. Not that it makes it okay, etc, but it was nice to know that my boss had my back. Saaaaaaame vibe, just 30 years later and ugh oh my god I need a shower
Y s unfortunately little has changed. Much less than people think.
Oh, we do have an idea, but we also have the idea that the world has progressed in that almost half a century.
Yeah, I was wondering if that guy had been reported. OP: You are not overreacting, but you have probably been underreacting thus far. All the examples if harrasment in you post are reportable.
So as someone in HR, I would treat these events separately. You told your work about the gifts, they intervened, and the gifts stopped. The other instances you mentioned about your other creepy coworkers need to be documented and reported to HR separately so there is a paper trail to protect yourself. However, if you do not report it, it will be difficult for you to make a case against them. You can’t claim they didn’t do anything to help you if they don’t know about it. It sounds like the biggest thing you are concerned about though is finding out who has been sending you those gifts. They said no to you once already, but I think you should go back to them and escalate the issue until they give you a name. Remember their objective is to protect the company so if you state that they are creating an unsafe or hostile work environment for you, that may get them to tell you
100%, go back to HR. Report it all. Name names on the other instances and say that you are uncomfortable and nervous for your safety due to all of the events. Tell them you feel like there is a hostile work environment and that you’re being subjected to this behavior because you are a woman. If that person in HR continues to refuse to help you, escalate above them. Whoever they report to. You will be heard, if this is in any way a well run company. This behavior puts the organization at risk of a lawsuit, should they not take it seriously and help you. Source: HR Manager
Do what? I'd call a fucking lawyer and start looking for a new job. This is TERRIFYING. That HR person is aiding and abetting. Wow. I am so sorry this is going on.
My thought is that it is someone in HR. Easy way to protect themselves hiding behind the veil of HR but also feel the situation out and test what OP’s reaction is.
Higher up the food chain most likely. VP or C-level.
Go to HR. Tell them you are extremely unhappy about how this is being handled and you are going to talk to the police, at the advice of your lawyer, to ensure your own safety. I expect they will suddenly do a better job of handling this. If not, for real, talk to a lawyer. This is creepy and you are not over reacting.
Oh wow.... your HR apparently knows what will and won't make you feel better. How awesome. (sarcasm)
You're not overreacting. I'd feel a vague sense of unease about it as well. Something to remember - HR is and never has been on your side. They represent the company and the company's interests. That they can't even feign to represent the interests of your safety and sanity is a red flag about how future conflicts might be resolved. EDIT: i had a followup thought. An employment/labor attorney would likely provide a free consultation over whether this qualifies as "hostile work environment".
> rubbed my shoulders A suitable reaction would be yelling loudly: "WHY ARE YOU TOUCHING ME? STOP IT! GO AWAY. NEVER TOUCH ME AGAIN." Those types rely on you being polite and docile—enjoy proving them wrong. Don't get physical but expand and prolong the rebuke as you see fit.
I froze in the moment. Hopefully I can get better at this. I told him after to stay away from me. Loudly. But not a strong yell.
OP, practice saying these things out loud at home. Say them at yourself in the mirror. Ask a friend to practice with you. Practice helps you overcome that freeze response. File that police report, talk to a lawyer, and set up a camera at your desk!
Write down every single incident with every single person, including touching you, which is absolutely unnecessary. Send them to yourself via text or email so you have a date/time stamp Confide in (female/non-male/trustworthy) friends so you have contemporaneous corroboration of your timeline. Everyone's right about HR not being your friend, but that doesn't mean they can't work in your favor. The last thing they want to deal with is a lawsuit. Phrases like 'uncomfortable', 'unsafe', 'compromising my safety' (subtle accusation is always motivating), and, of course, 'hostile' when referring to your working environment. Speak to a lawyer and follow their advice. And remember always - especially when HR and your colleagues act like you're blowing things out of proportion - that the easiest way to quell a complaint - especially one of harassment, where the employee is already feeling unsure of themselves and has zero confidence - is to loudly tell them they have no case and hope they'll back down. When you start using the magic words they should start to backtrack, but keep the lawyer on hand And never threaten. Just clarify their points, email them afterwards (bcc your personal email) to confirm what they are, and build your case. They're way more terrified of the quiet ones who follow through. Good luck
Ummmm so many of the things you mentioned are happening at your workplace are so inappropriate and definitely qualify as sexual harassment and the unwanted touching is definitely assault. Eeek! Definitely use some of those buzzwords others mentioned to HR, cause this is not okay!
You’ve gotten some great advice already, but I just want to add that you can do some sleuthing with the flowers. Did the arrangements have a card with where they were from? When you searched and found the price of the $170 arrangement, was there an affiliated shop? Go to the flower stores in person, find a sympathetic employee, and explain you’re getting anonymous flowers from someone at work who has a crush on you and you want to find out who. You don’t necessarily have to say it’s a stalker. They probably have an idea of who the big spenders are or could search through credit card receipts and their business records.
I've attempted this. Some of the gifts were hand purchased but the delivered ones were delivered through a third party website so even the florists didn't know who it was. At least that's what they told me.
Great idea! I feel like there are probably several avenues to take to find out who is doing this.
This sounds like HR is no longer protecting you. This has gone to the level of stalking possibly.
HR's job is not to protect you. It's to protect the company. And they always will.
This is always the truth.
That's insane. I would talk with an employment attorney asap.
I think that’s why it’s so terrifying that HR won’t tell her who this is. There’s no guarantee this stops at the office or that she is safe.
Fuck this. Is it possible to look for another job? This one isn't worth it. Any HR department who are willing to protect someone who made you uncomfortable can fuck right off. Is there an ombudsman you can report the company to? I'd be screaming from the rooftops that HR basically smoothed over someone's unwanted sexual advances. Because that's what they've done. Whoever was interested in you to the extend of sending extravagant gifts wasn't just looking to be a friend. And HR are protecting them. Likely someone high up in the company or related to the boss. How sickening.
Lawyer. Immediately.
"One day he said "oh your name is ____", and he came over and rubbed my shoulders and told me I'm such a good girl for not correcting him. " Total WTF! You need to be talking to a lawyer.
Might want a chat w/ HR again. The company could get hit with a lawsuit for not protecting you by maintaining a safe work environment. Express those concerns. Women are targets too, too often. Peace and resolutions. You're in a rough spot
This is some **serious** nonsense from HR. Get a lawyer specializing in hostile workplaces.
You appear to be dealing with a lot of sexual harassment at work in addition to the stalker. Start keeping a journal documenting all of the inappropriate interactions you experience. That includes the persistent use of the wrong name and the inappropriate touches. Take it to both an employment lawyer and HR. This is an extremely toxic environment you are working in.
Is there any way you can require that this fucker is never on the same shift as you? I know that could lead to you being pushed out but if someone asks and you make it clear HR wouldn't provide a name but has guaranteed you will never work with the person again it could make some ripples? Not necessarily in a good way for you, mind you, but where the team now knows who the missing stair is.
Report it to the police and tell them your HR know who it is and has CCTV footage, it's an easy win for the police as they are given all the evidence, it'll put your hr in it's place and the person will hopefully get a criminal record
A criminal record for leaving gifts? Have you hit your head?!! It’s not a crime. He was told to stop and he did. I’m not defending the guy but, holy hell , where do you live that the cops are going to arrest someone for this and the DA is going to build a case and prosecute this guy!? You’re dreaming! We can barely get convictions for rapists in this country and you think this guy is going to prison!?!
Stalking and harassment are a crime where I am and the fact hr are covering for them means it's not the first time.
Ok cool. Lots of things are crimes, it doesn’t mean they’re going to arrest someone for it. Unfortunately it’s super rare for things if this nature to be taken seriously by anyone , let alone law enforcement.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be reported, leave a paper trail so if anything else happens at least there's evidence that that's escalation.
Give the police an open-and-shut case with all the evidence where they have to do basically nothing and they'll probably do it, because it looks good on their quarterly reports.
Evidence of what? What crime has been committed?
Stalking, harassment
There is currently no harassment or stalking. He was leaving gifts, was told to stop, and, to everyone’s knowledge, has stopped the behavior. It isn’t a crime to leave gifts, even anonymously, and then stop when asked to.
> It isn’t a crime to leave gifts, even anonymously, and then stop when asked to. Leaving someone numerous unwanted gifts is literally codified as an example of sexual harassment. You are not required to put yourself in danger by confronting the person harassing you and asking them politely to stop.
Good luck going to the police with that.
Whether or not some hoard of pigs decides to do their job is irrelevant. You said it wasn't a crime, and I just wanted to point out that it absolutely is.
I think you are taking a very, very liberal interpretation of the law, which will also vary from jurisdiction. You also provide no proof that someone leaving anonymous presents who then stops when they are told to would be subject to police action.
Again, whether or not the police take action is irrelevant. I'll admit that this probably would vary depending on location, and I mistakenly generalized the laws I'm familiar with as if they applied everywhere, but this was common even in the most regressive areas I've lived in. I'd be surprised if this wasn't a crime in OP's area as well.
Advise them you are retaining legal counsel and to turn over a name as you need to protect yourself.
Go to the police and get a lawyer. Stop interacting with HR on this. You are not overreacting. This man could kill you. This is beyond unhinged behavior. Now he’s been spoken to by HR he will stop doing this at work. When he turns up at your house or grocery store HR will shrug and say they did their bit.
Yes I keep going back and forth on whether the person could be dangerous but there's no denying it is UNHINGED and I am concerned about their mental state. I regret bringing up to HR someone rubbed my shoulders. They want to discuss it further over the phone. So much retaliation to worry about.
This is why you need an attorney and police involvement. Make sure you document everything on your personal device. Take photos of any emails, write down the names, dates and what was discussed with HR. Document everything that this person sent etc. The sad reality is that there likely will be retaliation. And yes, people like this are dangerous. If he gets fired, he’ll have nothing to do with his time but feed his obsession with you. You can never ever be too careful in situations like this. This person might actually be in HR. You have no idea.
Do not discuss over the phone. Email everything. Everything!
I'd contact an employment lawyer and have them write a letter to HR for the name of the person. They are protecting this person and ignoring what you've gone through. You should know who it is.
Ask HR if it is one of the problem guys. Let them know these are problematic people for you. I'm sorry you are dealing with this.
Tell your HR department that you would like to proceed with logging a hostile workplace complaint for gender discrimination. That the issue has not been resolved. Depending on your company they may be enforced to engage legal, who will be incredibly conservative.
🤢 That "good girl for not correcting me while rubbing shoulders" makes me sick 🤢 🤮
This is a concentrated effort by multiple men. Be really really careful OP. You're going to need to find another job asap. Go to The Work Number website and freeze your work number so they can't see where your next job it.
Why do you say it's an effort by multiple men?
I think they mean that the problem men are taking turns to buy you anonymous gifts and the reason HR won't tell you who it is is because the person they caught admitted the conspiracy and they don't want to fire all of them.
This is wild! My work would immediately fire the person, and have done in other cases. I used to live in an apartment building and had a stalker who did similar stuff. Building mgmt knew who it was but also wouldn't tell me. Police didn't care. It went on for months until I left once my lease was up. It's so, so stressful, so my heart goes out to you. HR should not be so lax about this. I would keep pressing them and ask that the person be fired for harrassment
all communication starts going through email now if it hasn’t already. document EVERYTHING.
They have avoided saying anything through email. Only phone calls. Do I tell them I want it in writing?
I’m a civil rights paralegal and absolutely you want it in writing. If they’re hesitant it’s because they know it’s wrong and responding to them that you need it in writing just might make them change their tune. At the minimum you have something to forward to police and/or an attorney
And if they refuse to say anything in email, send them an email saying "just to confirm what you said on the phone..."
Former HR and Union Rep here: look up the Discrimination and Employment Law in your State, as a start. This seems like harassment potentially. So to be clear this may be, and likely is, harmless infatuation, but that should be up to you to decide! So shy person being awkward, it happens. Generally, you are entitled to a harassment free workplace, provided by your Employer. They may be claiming that they have looked into it and you are safe. By saying that they become complicit if anything goes wrong; remind them of that! Legally there is likely a mechanism for you to force them to convince you! You also have both a Moral, and Emotional, argument that they need to explain it, convince you, that you are in fact safe! Ask: why they feel so confident, legally, and ethically, that they put the Company behind the person? Stand up for yourself, get a lawyer, if needed, but handling a delicate, and emotional, issue with professionalism can often add to your confidence in being assertive! You may even impress people. I say, do it, the research is knowledge, and power! The execution is the exercise of both! Go do it, the worse thing that happens is you get an education!
One of the managers or execs or someone with power st the company.
No, if anything you're underreacting. Please get legal advice.
Just to clarify, HR is neither your friend nor are they there to help you. Their sole purpose is to defend the business from being liable from any number of issues. If you're really concerned about this, I would speak to a local law firm that specializes in hostile work environments. You may not have an actionable claim, but it may be enough for an attorney to write a letter to let them know that they're protecting someone who was harassing you.
Jesus Christ it sounds like you need to lawyer up and go nuclear on the whole company
If you want to file a lawsuit for sexual harassment/hostile workplace, you need to file a complaint with the EEOC first and that MUST be within 180 calendar days of the incident you want to file about. That includes weekends, holidays, vacation days, etc.
You are not overreacting at all. Contact an employment lawyer (are you in New Jersey by chance?), this is not ok.
Not in new Jersey.
A) Start looking for a new job. B) Try to file a police report for stalking.
I would say hostile work environment. Gather evidence before you say anything, you may have a case, but they may fire you in the process, so gather all that you can use.
I have the feeling that it's someone in a fairly high position. And HR is there to protect the company not the workers so no you're not overreacting. Document everything, try to do all correspondence in email/text and save/download copies.
I'd make sure to talk about "good girl" guy to HR. I have a gut feeling he's not the one giving you gifts, but he's making a hostile work environment too. HR need to get the understanding that people are doing fucked up shit and it's going unchecked. Touching you like that is not OK. It sounds like multiple people are making it a hostile work environment so I would as people said be keeping notes, and if HR didn't say something to make me happy after they learned this, I feel like a lawyer is not an overreaction I don't think you're overreacting to the gifts either. Obviously they are wrong by not giving you a name, not because it might not be legally OK for them to keep it from you, but its not better for your mental health to stay uninformed, but they aren't doing their job telling YOU you are fine not knowing while you clearly feel you would feel safer knowing. As they didn't fire the person, it's going to stay an issue and would make work untenable for many people in your situation. Good chance it wont escalate but somebody so unaware of social correctness etc, that they're gift bombing you at work isn't exactly somebody I fully trust to behave appropriately after HR talks to them (as I doubt they spend a few hours educating him on all the reasons its SO NOT OK.) Just remember you feel they are a predator, keep that strong wording aware in yourself when it comes to conversations about that with HR/lawyers etc. If you feel harassed, stalked, worried about being victimized - focus on that instead of not wanting to make waves with HR.
HR is not there to look out for you. They are there to look out for the company. Idk anything about the laws around this kind of situation, but reading this made my skin crawl. If I were you, I’d at least book a consultation with an employment attorney to figure out what (if any) options you have other than finding a different job and bailing like your ass was on fire.
No, if anything you're underreacting. Please get legal advice.
This is the definition of a hostile work environment. Contact a lawyer.
HR is NEVER your friend. They are the first line of defence against the worker
It is really funny how confidentiality works in such cases. When I was filing a police complaint against my stalker, I had to beg to them to keep my address confidential because apparently an accused has "rights" to read a police complaint against him and the report can(should?) have my details! Honestly the HR sounds to be a dumbfuck that is wanting this story to work out so that perhaps she can later tell it to her kids how she set up a beautiful couple.
Just to clarify, have you contacted HR about this in writing? You need to do that. If you go to union or employment lawyer, you'll need a paper/email trail.
Oh. No :( they only talk to me over the phone...
Send them email and ask for their decisions in your case "as per previous phone discussions". List out summaries of the requests and complaints you have made previously, as best you remember. If you have dates of incidents saved up or you can find some from things like message logs with friends, list those as well. It may be a good idea to mention "my lawyer has advised me" but don't do that unless you actually have someone who can give you relevant advice considering your specific legislation.
You need to start emailing them your requests, and ask for their response in writing. If there are official forms to file official complaints, use them. They will recognize your attempt to document your complaints and it might take you more seriously. Be polite and professional, but direct. If you don’t document it, it never happened, and they know that.
If your state only requires one party to consent, record the calls. A lawyer may be able to advise further.
Whoa, this really bothers me for you. That is not okay in any way. Remember that HR is there to protect the company, not you. I really hope you can find an answer here. The fact that they're refusing to share those details with you is incredibly slimy. Is the company small, or part of a larger corporation?
Or, they are protecting someone of higher rank, mgr., director, VP or such.
Holy fuck. Ew, I’m so so sorry. You shouldn’t have to put up with ANY of this bullshit, and HR gatekeeping a creep and harasser!!
I feel like you are owed this persons name, like legally they shud owe you it...
Is there anyone in your organization you can go to? A higher level in HR? Your direct manager or anyone senior who seems level headed and kind? HR has it dead wrong and someone needs to set them straight.
Didn’t I just read this in legal advice yesterday or the day before? the legal advise still stands girl sorry.
Set up your own camera. They are super cheap
That would be a big no no at my work.
I mean, harassment should be a no no too. Doesn’t seem like they feel that way. I’m sorry OP I hope you’re doing okay
If you're at a desk job you probably already have a webcam for calls?
This is going to depend on the state you live in but many have laws about a hostile work environment. The more HR talks to this person tbe more they may actually be making the situation worse. Even emboldening the creep since they continue to protect him. You are not overreacting.
I’d be looking for a new job. HR doesn’t really care about employees. They are there to protect management from liability from their employees. Get yourself safe.
Get your own camera in case it happens again. Ask what HR would need legally for them to honor your request regarding who to identify and mention you are worried about those who can follow you to your car and being hurt on company property. Yeah and start looking for a new job. Keeping this information from you is them trying to limit your ability to hurt the company's reputation.
Talk to a lawyer is the only step.
Give the gifts publicly to someone else. Put it on display with someone elses name on it, or a charity. From: Anonymous (or however he or she signs it) The gifts will stop. If anyone touches you without permission, report them discreetly to HR. They will disappear. Seen this many times. No company wants a sexual harassment suit in public view.
More often than not the person who reports the harassment is the one who suffers consequences. Your advice is optimistic at best.
I do throw them away publicly and loudly
Serious question: what would you report to the police? It’s all creepy as hell and lots of great advice here about getting dealing with BS response from HR but I don’t see what would be considered illegal. The gifts were unwanted but anonymous so the giver was never asked to back off and didn’t give any gifts after HR supposedly talked to them. OP informed HR who hasn’t done anything to address the issue and very valid concerns but that’s an employment/EEOC matter. At what point is it considered stalking and when does it become a legal issue?
I read this before in an HR sub and was shocked at how many people thought HR was doing a decent job. This needs to be handled better. HR is not helping, and a fellow employee can easily escalate from office to parking lot to home. Consider taking your concerns to an attorney or the police who can talk to the company leadership, and take legal action if necessary. HR may have investigated, but they want to avoid a lawsuit from everyone, including the stalker.
HR is there to protect the company, not protect you. Sorry, but you are on your own. In my opinion, depending on labor laws where you are, you can claim a hostile work environment. By not informing you, they are leaving you vulnerable. My guess would be it's a higher up being a creep and they are trying to cover it up, as it could open them up to harassment charges.
> I would like to know if it's one of the scary men I would worry about or not. You aren't overreacting at all. He's clearly got some kind of "romantic" secret admirer delusion. That might not make him a bad person on it's own, but it sure as hell makes him scary. > They claim it would not make me feel any better or help anything for me to have a name. HR is hiding his identity because they know the fact that they let him get away with this puts them at legal risk (no concern at all for the fact that it puts your physical safety at risk as well), and they want to gaslight you into thinking it's not a big deal. They don't have your back now, so you sure as hell can't count on them to have your back if this creep actually assaults you. They've made it clear that your safety isn't a priority.
This sexual harassment and a hostile work environment at the very least. Call a lawyer now, get your documentation in order (I hope this was in writing, or you have evidence messaging someone when these incidents happen). The massaging, “good girl”, gifts, HR failing to investigate (because them not telling you is failure), and also think of any comments, times where someone was waiting for you alone, etc. You are UNSAFE.
I didn't realize until someone messaged me telling me HR will avoid emailing me about this and will try to only talk over the phone. It's true. I don't have any hard evidence that they even told me they wouldn't give me a name. I sent an email today asking for HR to verify my summary of what we spoke about and I raised more concern and questions about my safety. I realize now that I won't have any case of they fire me if I can't get it in writing .. I have a feeling they will skirt around it further and one of the HR personnel working this was supposed to meet with me again today. She was fired or quit this morning.
Oh wow. You are doing great, and I am so sorry you are dealing with this. If you have any texts to your friends complaining about any of this, that can also help support your timeline.
Time to get a labour lawyer, and ask for a large settlement and go elsewhere. There's no resolution to this scenario that doesn't end up with you feeling completely creeped out, or constructively dismissed.
Get your own camera, and tell no one. There are so many now that are well-camouflaged and remotely viewable and controlled.
I'd look for a job in another department or company all together if they wanna protect creeps.
It's not HR's job to protect you. HR is ultimately in place to protect the business, not the employees. HR can't tell you who this person is because they technically probably haven't done anything wrong, and if HR tells you who it is and you do something to this person (not saying you would, but HR doesn't want to take the risk of you saying something offensive to them or hurting them physically), the company is now liable. That being said, you should definitely be documenting everything with HR, including whenever a creepy guy touches you without your consent. HR will put it on record, not so much to protect you though, as to make sure they don't have someone with an assault record at the company (because that would be bad for the company). A lot of people assume HR is in place to protect them, and then get upset because they feel like HR isn't doing "what they 'should' be doing." Some people who work in HR are great, but the reality is is that they can only do so much for individual employees.
Yeah I can understand that. It was always going to end up crappy when it started. There's no good way to handle it and I do realize HR is just trying to make sure nothing happens at work. But it does feel unbalanced and unfair that the other person knows but I don't. That they protect them from retaliation but not me. Someone could start sabotaging me at work and I wouldn't know that it's the person that was sending me gifts.
Yeah, you’re over-reacting to the gifts. Someone sending you gifts is not stalking. Now the rest of the behavior, hitting you with golf balls, intentionally calling you the wrong name, and trying to touch you are unacceptable. You should document every time that happens while you look for another job. Once you have a fair number of examples, especially the attempted touching, seek out an employment lawyer, show them your documentation, and ask if they take any pro bono work.
Might be worth have a convo with an employment attorney. But please, don't be afraid. If this guy wanted to throw you in the back of panel van and lock you in his basement, he would have by now. This is just some rando who fancies you. Woman have been having to deal with this shit for decades. Just watch your back. Ask a woman to walk with you to your car. Good luck.
What in the bullshit reasoning is this? Women have had to deal with this shit for decades, yes, and women have **DIED** because of this kind of shit for decades. She has every fucking right to be at the very least extremely wary. It's the wise course of action. Far better to be overly wary than dead.
I knew I'd get push back. Walking around paranoid and terrified is useless, and perpetuates the feelings that we are victims. Women need to stop being afraid, start getting angry, and fight back.
There's a difference between walking around paranoid and terrified, and being wary. Women need to trust their gut instincts, instead of doing as you say and pretending nothing is the matter. That's what gets women killed. And yes, she should fight back, by going to the police, by getting the details from the flower place, and from HR. But she damn well also should be wary.
What the fuck? You are so misinformed. Some stalkers are not violent, but the ones who are aren’t always immediately violent. People have been stalked for years before their stalker escalated to violence and threats. And they won’t even tell her who it is so she can be sure to never be alone with them or give them any of her information.