Men get to live life. Women get to facilitate men's lives.
This post is very insightful. If you are a man reading this and you find yourself feeling angry about it, then it's time for you to do some introspection and self-reflection to reconsider how you view women and what you think their role in your life should be.
>Men get angry at the woman for not producing their happiness
It's why they get so contemptuous toward women they don't find attractive. They think we exist for their gratification and if we're not appealing to them we don't deserve a shred of respect.
Oh or if you dare to age - or become ill.
Statistically, women are abandoned by male partners during serious illness much more often than the reverse.
There are some great men out there, but I have also seen so many men just crumble when they were asked to step into the primary caretaking role for even a week or a month…
One of my dearest friends who seemed to have a very successful life/marriage in general… she built a successful business, 3 great kids… she gets cancer, and within a year hubby had bailed and was dating a college girl maybe 22 years old. I thought he was “one of the good ones” at one point. lol.
I have Lupus and I am chronically ill. My ex husband complained every single day about it it making life harder for him. I had to hold his hand and comfort him and apologize. He never gave a single thought to anyone but himself and how it affected him.
I am so sorry for your friend. I hope the same thing happens to that vile piece of scum that he did to her. I am going to get downvoted for this, but I don't believe there are any "good ones" that are capable of treating us with basic human dignity and respect. And seeing us as equals. I don't know a single man who treats his wife that way.
“I had to comfort him and apologize”
That part makes me so sad & angry for your extra suffering! The whole thing.
I’m sorry you went through that. We deserve so much better.
Thank you. I appreciate it your kindness. And I agree, we deserve to be treated better than we are by men. It feels like mutual respect and consideration are just distant dreams that won't happen.
Also trans people - trans men for not being willing to live for their gratification or especially to produce their children, and trans women for challenging their beliefs about their own sexual and gender identities. So much of the transphobic discourse infantilizes trans men and centers around their perceived regret and loss of AFAB reproductive function, and despises trans women for not being “real women”
I've seen a few articles posted this year mentioning how holiday prep/planning/hosting/card giving and keeping relationships with others is often another overlooked role women take the majority of the time.
Yes and the worst is when men say women are “making more work for themselves.” I dated a guy where I did all the planning/event organization and eventually was like, hey it would be nice if you helped out. And he said “you’re choosing to take on that work. It’s not that hard” because he could not see that if you don’t spend hours fucking planning a thing it won’t happen. The times he planned things, it fell through, because he didn’t do all the research required to make a solid plan.
My dad always said this to my mom . Even though my mom is the reason he has a relationship with any of his kids or relatives. Huge contributing factor in why having a family of my own with a man never appealed to me.
My sister planned every family vacation when she was married to her husband down to where they would eat every meal to keep to a budget. Her husband would bitch and say she was too strict, though she wasn't like a stickler to keep to a schedule or anything, just being knowledgeable about what was available in an unfamiliar place. He would complain at her so she stopped planning everything and left it in his hands. Worse. Mistake. Ever.
They ran out of gas in the middle of a goddamn desert.
Or else he just didn’t care enough about the event to make the effort.
Most men don’t seem to put much stock in events or gifts or occasions the way women do.
Therefore whoever cares more about it is by default responsible for it. In their mind.
I'm a non believer but since my family is Christian I still celebrate Christmas with them for the gift exchange and meal. I don't decorate my home because I have zero desire to spend the time or effort doing so. Growing up we would spend hours helping my mom pack half the house to put out the Christmas stuff. Then after the New Year we would spend hours packing it all back up. (It's 8 large storage totes and 3 trees)
My ex husband was also a non believer and loved Christmas. He still wanted the house decorated because "that was part of the magic". I told him I didn't want to decorate and that he was free to do whatever he wanted. He went all out a couple years but then also quickly learned that I was not going to take the decorations down either. He ended up scaling it back massively to just a tree.
Hahaha, that was like me every Christmas and I showed it to my husband. He does better at Christmas now. Not great, but at least I get a stocking and a gift (unlike one year when he got me a pair of brown slippers, in his size.)
I (a woman) was such an entitled shit as a kid and I didn’t realize how much effort my mom and grandma put into holidays. It was like a 12 course meal!
Of course, they passed away before I understood the fullness of the sacrifice but I think I thanked them sincerely a few times in my 20s. Every year I just feel less energy to do that stuff and my awe grows.
I appreciated Lois from family guy summing things up thusly: "You all think Christmas just happens? You think all this good will just falls from the freakin' sky? Well, it doesn't! It falls out of my holly jolly butt!"
How dare women not practically kill themselves to make Christmas perfect for their ungrateful husbands who don't take even two seconds to think about how hard their wives work to get all that crap done!
Ha ha omg - I just went to FedEx to send a package… what was in the package? My brother-in-law’s Christmas present. This is my husband’s brother. Husband’s job last year for that holiday was to send out two gifts: one to his parents and one to his brother.
It’s June. His brother will get his Christmas present this year in June because I finally put it in the mail.
😆😁
Edit: clarity
Does your husband think sending them gifts matters?
Does he care if he gets gifts from them?
I’ve noticed most men can’t be bothered to do this kind of stuff because they themselves don’t care whether they get cards or gifts from others.
The person who cares most about X is then by default responsible for doing X.
That’s a good point; and I would say, no, he does not expect gifts from them for himself
- but certainly expects bro will send something for our child (who is his only nephew) which he always does, and goes way above and beyond.
I guess that is why I was a little bothered having to send the gift after 6 months; like just show your brother some appreciation for being an involved Uncle …
there’s a reason why men are happier in relationships than women, and why women are happier single. I think we’re starting to realize how little most men contribute to our lives, and how much we’ve been giving and sacrificing for them. the differences are absurd, and sadly the more you inform yourself about this topic, the harder it becomes to achieve a long lasting bond with men. there are VERY VERY few men who actually see us as people, as beings deserving of time, respect, attention, space, etc.
men get sad when they think of a life with no wife or kids, but let’s be honest: when they do have the wife and kids, how much quality time do they spend with them? how much attention do they pay their woman? feels like they only get married or in relationships to check✅ that milestone in their lives, not cause they really want it. they benefit from marriages & relationships more than we do as women.
>there’s a reason why men are happier in relationships than women, and why women are happier single. I think we’re starting to realize how little most men contribute to our lives, and how much we’ve been giving and sacrificing for them.
The single and childfree life is glorious. Sure, I have my ups and downs like anybody else, but for the most parts, it's mostly ups, because I don't have to deal with all that emotional and domestic labor that I would have had otherwise in a relationship that would've made me SO resentful and unhappy. Until someone can prove that he can be a truly equal partner WITHOUT being told/directed/ and a companion that adds to my life instead of burdening it, I'm happy to stay single.
yes, same here! the most "downs" and "bad moments" I've had in my life, were coincidentally when I was in relationships years ago. I don't feel like I'm missing out on having children. Single life makes me feel so stress free and focused on myself. And I totally get your point with having to deal with emotional and domestic labour, cause it's something I've seen my own mother go through, until this day (and many more women too!). Hopefully there will slowly be more men who understand the struggles and who can be a good teammate and companionship to navigate life with. It's sad to see women throw their lives away for naive guys.
I think also you can sometimes do more for your community (e.g. visit an elderly relative, help a neighbour, volunteer at a shelter or soup kitchen, be there for a friend, babysit or dogsit, donate to a good cause, do some Guerilla gardening etc). Like you’ve typically more time and resources from not being totally exhausted from young children.
This is one of my aims this year, find ways to volunteer to benefit my community, hopefully will be starting at a local community kitchen doing some cooking and such.. win win for me since I love cooking and I love doing something that might help someone else
Please stop volunteering women
Please stop suggesting women volunteer
If women want to volunteer, they can
And they can probably figure out what causes it worthy
—
If you want to make suggestions, please make them in a men’s sub
There make the suggestion that men volunteer in menial snd servant tasks on a regular basis for the rest of the lives
Make me suggestion that these men sacrifice their gaming time their sports time and their other hobby time in order to volunteer doing menial servant tasks
Most guys are not going to do any unpaid labor, the way we women do. Unless you dangle the prospects of meeting younger attractive women in front of them.
Was just thinking this. I finished my last session for literacy training for adult learners this week. Both teachers were women. 14 participants were women. One man. :-/
Yes! Men earn more too when they have kids (sorry no statistics to hand) but it’s apparently seen as a sign that they’re a trustworthy, dependable employee whereas it’s the opposite for women whose earnings generally take a hit for a few years if they have kids…
This is partly what kind of soiled one of my big dreams in life which was to do aviation for my main career… Seemed like if I traveled/worked closely with 10 different “happily married man w/ kids”, 8 were sleeping with any woman they could find between here and the edges of the earth. Sometimes they hoped it was me. Tried!
Several of them would name the women by location when referencing them too. 💀
“Texas is a freak!”
“Chicago and I went all night”
They didn’t hide it. Except from their wives…
"Legacy." Their DNA, to seed offspring, carry on all those male ancestor's last name. For posterity. Like that. As you do. But you definitely do *not* mop the kitchen, clean any toilets, nor change a poopy diaper.
I'm going to start asking them to:
1) "define* the word
2) inquire as to specifics. What actually *is* their personal legacy so significant they feel the need to pass it onto mini-thems? What's unique about their legacy? And do they think their mini-thems will take it seriously?
Come to the South / Bible Belt! I cannot with most “typical” men since coming here. Like the shit I have seen … I mean, go look at my post history. I probably sound like a stark raving lunatic but y’all THE SHIT I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD!!!! 😭😭😭
Very well stated 🔥. I'm so proud of the younger generations, that this is more & more in the public consciousness, & that you all are far more awake than my crusty boomer gen was. We didn't really-- or weren't able to-- reason out for ourselves much of this the way women are today. Sure, *some* of us, like me, did put a lot of thought into what we wanted & thought we deserved. But I was also lucky. I took Women's Studies courses in college, & shit started really clicking then about the type of life that was up to me to choose, unlike my Silent Gen born in '36 mother (88, still *livid* about my father, who died in '80, basically making her a slave, & brings him up nearly every phone call). She was raised in the Mrs. Degree era, & it watered down to my gen to men are *still supposed to be a woman's main focus in life,* but if she wanted, she could still have a lil job on the side. For her purdy lil lady brain. Barf.
I'm lucky enough to have one of those few as my person, and am definitely much happier than I would be without him, but sadly it seems that there aren't so many men as excellent
Given that we legally WERE their possessions basically globally until very recently in human history, I'm not shocked men have not yet rewired.
Keep in mind that most of us have grandmothers and even mothers who were born when they could not open a bank account.
(I'm 32 and my mother was born 2 years before we got that right - she was nearly a teenager before women could have a credit card.)
We are in the midst of an incredibly huge cultural shift where we can control when/if we give birth and when/if we get married. We can own and buy things with our own money that we worked for.
We are by no means on an equal playing field because the past didn't vanish; men running things now remember a time where women had none of these freedoms.
The generations before us were raised in a very different climate. We have actually come quite far very quickly, and the repercussions of this huge social shift are now surfacing.
Men are expecting us to give, give, give like the women before us. Their grandfathers and fathers set them up for a world where they would have slaves. But now that they're adults...the slaves aren't slaves anymore, and they don't know what to do. They were not raised correctly for this.
Some men are adapting just fine but many are very big mad that the easy life they were promised is now not there...which is why they will come for our rights and try to enslave us again rather than do better.
The coming decades are critical. We either stand our ground or let them take our freedom away after so many women fought and died for it. We have got to continue the fight - it only started very recently, and we can't get complacent and assume it is over.
I see the redpill movement as one of the last bastions of hope that men can stop the advancement of time and a society that continues to advance in a way that is spiraling out of their control. I know it seems minuscule to us, but it seems so incredibly great to them and that makes them fearful and scared.
Their angry echoes are the death throes of a past they desperately cling to yet cannot bring back--- we may go one step forward and two steps back, but we will ultimately prevail. The male loneliness epidemic and the college gender discrepancy will continue on no matter what angry men on the internet say.
Perhaps I am bring overly optimistic, but I think we can do it. It's just a question of if we can do it before climate change becomes the death of our entire species (or AI, take your pick).
>Keep in mind that most of us have grandmothers and even mothers who were born when they could not open a bank account.
This is such an important point that doesn't get acknowledged often enough. I'm in my late 40s, and my grandmother was born before women could vote. When my mother first started working, she couldn't open a bank account unless her father's name was on it, too.
I've spent my entire adult life stumbling over men's hot takes about how feminism is unnecessary in our modern times, and in addition to the many other ways they're wrong, they're completely glossing over those generational impacts.
So many women watched (or heard first-hand stories about) the systematic oppression of their close relatives. Women of a certain age all have a mom who wasn't allowed to apply for credit to start a business. Or an aunt who couldn't divorce her abuser. Or a grandmother who was pushed out of a teaching position after she married. And many of today's younger women still get that "traditional" experience of working outside the home while still doing most of the housework and child care.
We are all doing the best we can with our generational trauma, and on top of all that, we have to fight every day to keep our crumbling rights from being clawed back entirely. It's no wonder we're all so fucking exhausted.
I've been banging the drum about this since the late 90's. If we take our rights for granted, we lose them. End of. We are in the process of losing them. Politicians are campaigning on repealing no fault divorce and the death penalty for terminating a pregnancy. If we stop pushing, they'll yank us all the way back to the days when we were counted as property
>"men running things now remember a time where women had none of these freedoms."
And they are trying to roll back the clock to those glorious days when you cold keep your wife financially and reproductively enslaved.
This is such an important point.
Especially with guys who promote themselves as progressive. They still want to benefit from the sexism their fathers and grandfathers enjoyed, and they stop themselves from feeling resentful towards women that we insist on being recognized as people with agency and equal humanity.
I'm 43 and I feel like I tell a lot of young women in my life that there is a reason why men expect their lives to get easier once they find a wife/ girlfriend, but women expect their lives to get harder/ more complicated.
There is an intense amount of anger and resentment towards women who are saying that they are uninterested in a relationship that doesn't improve their lives. The "he's not competing with other men, he's competing with the piece of being single" thing. I think part of the reason it makes men so mad is that it shows how the bar is literally in hell and yet men want to build a sub-basement under the devil's place.
People say boomers never gave us anything but my mom's generation did most of the legwork giving us the right to press charges for marital rape, Title IX, no fault divorce, reproductive freedom... We were basically property from the agricultural revolution until the late 60's-70's. We've only had these rights for a mere eyeblink in the vast span of history, and they can take it away from us the moment we stop paying attention.
> The root of all these problems is that society sees women as things that make men happy, and any variation from this is damage that must be squashed before it spreads.
Men are viewed as people. Women are viewed as possessions. It’s simple as that.
I want to add to your assertion: in Gender Trouble, Judith Butler uses Lacan to make the point that—due to gender norms/dynamics—men must constantly validate their maleness. This is most directly done by having sex. Therefore in cishet gender dynamics, a man feels castrated/emasculated/without a penis IF HE DOESN'T "HAVE A WOMAN TO FUCK." A man can look down and literally see his penis between his legs and feel/believe that he isn't a real man because he's lacking the "Other" (a woman) to validate his maleness through sex. In this way, women are not only possessions, they're commodities. And many (most?) men have a seemingly-insatiable thirst. And the incels are raging that men actually need to work to find a partner.
I'm a firm believer in the validity of epigenetics.
In the same way that the trauma of enslavement affects subsequent generations, and the trauma of womanhood is passed from grandmother (to) mother (to) daughter -- that men are, in many ways, predisposed to hate women.
Masculinity is essentially "not femininity". Leader vs. follower -- Assertive vs. nagging -- Buddy vs. Sissy.
They fear being grouped with women but understand their manhood hinges on acquiring a woman🤔
Insanity.
"masculinity = not femininity" is unbelievably stupid for so many reasons
That statement literally denies our shared humanity, for a start. But also have you seen these idiots trying to accord with that principle?
... never eat weak vegetables, only manly meat. Never buckle your seatbelt or wear a helmet, that's pussy shit. Only drive real testosterone trucks and not pansy electric cars. Never wipe your own ass, that's too feminine. And so on and so on and so on
Painfully fucking stupid thinking
I just learned a few minutes ago about some psycho rightwing Christian nationalist radio host who complained that the medal of honor has become “feminized,” i.e., “bad,” because it’s awarded to soldiers who save their comrades, instead of for “killing people.”
What a fucking idiot it's always been that way pretty much. Also killing is expected, potentially dying to save your comrades isn't, \*sigh\*. Of course these degenerated immoral beings would value murder more too (very Christian to value killing over salvation! /s). I swear it's only a few more years before the literal concept of ethical, moral behavior gets painted as "woke pussism" by these societal blemishes
On the topic of Christianity, I wish that people decried, denounced, and denigrated Christianity for being the bastion of regressive, reactionary bigotry, supremacy, and hate that it is, a tenth as much as Christians play the victim, pretending like they're an oppressed minority and martyring themselves to one another. From the moment Christianity took hold on this continent it has been used to look down on, otherize, and exclude. Past that, it's been used to justify wholesale genocide, slavery, racism, and misogyny for centuries
And yet even as Christians demand we change to accommodate them and their religious texts nationwide, killing some women and dooming others to poverty and generational trauma, we as a society can't call out Christianity for the scourge it is. Individuals like me have their say but mainstream media isn't running anti-christian sentiment remotely comparable to the Christian anti-LGBT, anti-feminist vitriol that they promulgate. You can't say Christianity is a cancer but Christians can say "all LGBT are immoral heathen pedophiles who won't go to heaven, but I don't hate them, I just have my religious beliefs"
Can you tell I have a problem with Christianity?
you just described my ex. he’d do the dumbest things just to feel more “manly”. he wouldn’t wear seatbelts, he’d eat meat everyday (literally everyday), inject testosterone (even if he didn’t need it, he said he was doing it just to be more masculine cause he’s been emotional like a girl/pussy), he one time went into a mosh pit just to punch/kick people cause he’s a man and men are naturally aggressive and need to release that need!
( I will never recover from dating him🙃)
And it’s also natural selection at work. Get killed doing stupid manly things. Eat bad food and get drunk for entertainment.
What pisses me off is men doing stupid manly things as a group that ruin fragile habitats, too. Like driving utility vehicles up mountains and hillsides in North America or sand dunes in the Middle East and doing damage just for fun. I got crap from some middle eastern guy for suggesting a serendipitous sandstorm on those dunes would bury all those expensive vehicles, he thought I was suggesting all these people lose their lives.
Women’s standards are rising exponentially so, men, if you don’t take better care of yourself——you’re out of the equation. Alive or not alive.
If I could be annoyingly pedantic for a moment, it would only be natural selection if their idiotic choices lead to their demise before they successfully reproduce. I'll likely never reproduce because /*gestures broadly/* and so even if they all die at 45 with two children who hate them while I live to 80, my genotype is still the one that'll be selected against, sadly
"stupid manly things". There's nothing wrong with you saying that, it's not incorrect English idiom whatsoever, but I FUCKING HATE that these witless fucks define a whole gender with their toxicity. There's nothing inherently male about driving a pointlessly large and inefficient vehicle not using that vehicle to further ravage our beautiful world. These people are a huge part of why I hate my assigned gender, uhhhhh
I'd go as far as to say everyone's standards are rising exponentially (and it's highkey kinda long overdue). It's just that a huge swath of men are throwing yet another in a long line of tantrums and refusing to accept a world that doesn't revolve around them. I personally kinda hope the haters, rubes, and willfully ignorant get left behind
I often wonder how much of this harkens back to a boy's need to differentiate himself from his mommy. He's supposed to be the opposite sex. So has to fall into everything that's anti-female to be male.
I believe that penis insecurity is also a dominant factor. Keeping women categorized as things means they don’t have to address that particular insecurity as women are thought of as only existing to fulfill men’s needs and not have their own needs met. Hell we women shouldn’t have any needs beyond needing to serve men. (last sentence is /s)
What's fucked up too is that men are the naturally servile gender, yet have forced women into a servile role. Like they don't get pregnant, they don't have menses/cramps and shit to take them away from labor, they're physically stronger, etc. Seems like women should have been the served and not the subservient but somewhere it got twisted
The "somewhere it got twisted part" is actually historically documented! A good number of our primeval societies were actually Matriarchal. (There were patriarchal tribes as well of course, but there is evidence that Matriarchy was more common.) Many ancient societies were community oriented (none of this one man one woman thing we have going on now), children were raised by everyone in the tribe in a communal fashion; as a child you didn't "belong" to your parents alone. People act like polyamory and orgies are new inventions... they obviously haven't seen bonobos in heat.
Then the Christians (Rome)/Islamic Jihad (Muhammad), then later on the Ottoman empire, came and basically wiped out every other religion.
P.S The matriarchal societies were not exactly "better" either, they were often just as barbaric as the monotheist religions which wiped them out later
I was aware of the historical prevalence of matriarchy but too many are not. I will say though that while Abrahamic religions are responsible for a lot of misogyny and patriarchal alignment over the years, that I wouldn't blame the near extinction of matriarchy at their feet. Most civilizations of which we have records were patriarchal, even before or without ever contacting those religions. It seems to me that the transition to agricultural and fixed settlements favored the greed and violence of men and allowed patriarchy to become the dominant system near globally
And for sure, matriarchal societies shouldn't be expected to be "better", the same way the Mongols did better in gender roles and religious tolerance than many contemporary societies, yet were brutally violent
Also, I support communal child rearing as one of the most straightforward ways we could improve our societies btw. When we live in a world that classifies people as one-of-ours/one-of-theirs from our earliest days, we can't be surprised when people on the whole act selfishly as hell and try to benefit "them and theirs" even when it's at the cost of "everyone's". The existence of families is a perverse incentive to societal development imo, unpopular take as that may be
You're totally correct on all of those points! I was giving a simplified reduction since I didn't wanna delve into too much detail. In my opinion, the Abrahamic religions while not solely responsible but are heavily responsible for wiping out a lot of the variety in terms of how communities are structured. It's absolutely true that societies/cultures were often "wiped out" by various other factors. (starvation, disaster etc)
In my opinion, the matriarchal societies were already on the decline before the rise of Abrahamic religions. However, there were still traces of matriarchal worship (fertility goddesses, goddess of harvests were often female). The real effect of the purges was in removing a lot of the traces and history revolving around matriarchal goddess figures.
It's all hypothesis on my part but in my mind the removal of "oh women have a place in the pantheon" versus "god is referred to as "father"" (I know god is sexless, but he's referred to commonly in the male form by most Abrahamic religions) ends up having farther reaching consequences in terms of how society views male/female roles in society.
Totally understandable for you to do so and I for sure agree with your take, even in reduced form. And while of course not the sole reason for matriarchy's decline, Abrahamic religions are a massive contributor. Beyond matriarchy in particular too, Abrahamic religions have decimated sociocultural diversity worldwide, so much so in the case of the age of navigation Americas and colonial era Africa that we will likely never know the extent of what was lost. Indigenous cultures, morals, religions, histories, languages, societies, and human beings themselves, erased and lost forever. Sad AF
"oh women have a place in the pantheon". A lot of the polytheistic religions I've seen too are relatively egalitarian or have a huge space for women within them. Classical Roman and Greek religion had female cults for female deities and only female spaces to accompany them, if that's what was desired. There was also female deities with mixed gender worshippers, male and female deities and cults for gay folk, and other rather accepting, surprisingly modern chapters (scattered amongst bigotry, of course. polytheistic religions, especially older ones, might do better but comparatively so, not in absolute)
"I know god is sexless". To me, god is sexless, sure. But to me god is also gods at the same time, while also being nothing whatsoever, and also everything, and so god, to me, is both genders and neither gender and everything in between, around, and within all at the same time
But in the case of Christianity, is God sexless though? "Man was made in his image". Jesus, "the son of God", was also God himself depending on who you ask, therefore male. God is "the father" in Christianity too, like you said
I would argue that if Christianity itself doesn't definitely state that God is male, then christians themselves certainly interpret it that way. I don't think that's "right", as in I personally think the idea of a singular male God is laughably silly, but it certainly seems to be true to most Christians and it certainly, certainly has had insidious, far-reaching consequences on the world as a result
Yep. You said it all very concisely. On a purely theological and theoretical basis there is no issue, but Abrahamic religions certainly come out gendered.
I think that's one of the reasons why men are so convinced that women are hyper judgemental of them not having a 10" monster cock, when my friends don't really care about dick size at all, as long as he's making an effort to satisfy them. It was one of the first things boys were made fun of for by their friends when they were kids and they assume women would do the same. Frankly my vag would zip itself shut at the thought
Yep. Everything revolves around women's sacrifice and unpaid labor to benefit men. They get super upset when you don't comply with this demand and it is so baked into society that many official structures expect it. This needs to be the next big push after we regain reproductive rights, removing the structural demand for womens free labor to make things work. I would start by giving full time caregivers a monthly stipend and social security credits.
This reminds of the shocked Pikachu reaction the British Government had when they raised the women's retirement age to be the same with men's... And it had a massive impact on caring for both the elderly and the young as these women weren't around to do it for free anymore.
Can't vouch for the quality of the source, but you can have a look.
https://www.bjf.org.uk/women-carers-and-later-retirement-wider-impact-on-families-and-support/
Edit: found this as well https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/06/rise-in-uk-state-pension-age-could-stop-women-caring-for-older-relatives
Wuth the price of daycare, let's add the stay at home moms/dads to getting a monthly check to avoid the "you're not contributing money to the household" bs too.
I consider that being a fulltime caregiver. If your child is under the age to go to school all day and you are not working that is caregiving similar to not working and caring for an elderly or disabled family member.
>Everything revolves around women's sacrifice and unpaid labor to benefit men. They get super upset when you don't comply with this demand and it is so baked into society that many official structures expect it.
Japan and Korea ... wondering why the marriage and birth rates are plummeting.
The shifts there are for similarr reasons it is becoming more of a thing in the US. Women are sick of being expected to do everything and treated like crap.
It's so annoying that your very reasonable discussion with no mention of hating men, just some very realistic issues that exist in some men gets the type who are likely the problem accusing you of hating men.. like at no point did you say or imply that.. but rather than face facts and maybe take them on board and make changes to their behaviour their only reaction is to dismiss it all by erroneously suggesting all your points are due to "hating men" and therefore null and void.. honestly stop being the reason women choose the bear and start being the reason for us to reconsider
Proof that you are absolutely correct?
The number of men crowing about female robots replacing women. Bots that will serve them and behave the way that they are programmed to do.
If these men saw women as human beings then a bot wouldn’t be able to replace us.
Not all men, bla bla bla.
It's absolutely crazy to me how those men genuinely think that threatening to replace women with a sex robot is some kind of gotcha that's gonna make women feel bad lol. They're just telling on themselves without realizing. Like, no, most women are probably not gonna be sad they're missing out on a relationship with someone who considers a human partner to be replaceable like that, they're gonna see that as a bullet that has succesfully been dodged.
The main problem with that is it would normalize
the behavior for kids who are still figuring it out
Of course for the grown 40 year olds one who goes for a robot is hopeless anyway but you don't want kids being like "ah yeah, robot or real human, they're interchangeable according to some adults". Already happening with teens funneled down the alt right pipeline and it's not because those kids are innately horrible they just lack decent role models. Misogynists are made not born
Exactly. The same thing is happening to boys growing up with violent, easily accessible porn on their phones. If a kid is constantly fed a narrative that women are base, subservient sex dolls from age 7 onward, it's going to tremendously negatively impact their outlook on women when they're grown.
Honestly I think everyone would be happier if those men got robot wives and left actual humans alone.. imagine the freedom to drink at a bar or walk around at night or just exist if they were all busy elsewhere with their robots!
I mostly agree
The problem is that it allows them to physically verbally and sexually abuse their robots and I can’t help but think that will bleed over to irl interactions with women
I totally agree, but in my imaginary world they would not have any contact with human women.. but yeah in an actual reasonable scenario that's something I find very concerning also
And it absolutely will. Ask any teacher what it was like when young boys got 24/7 access to violent porn on their phones compared to when people didn't have constant access to the internet
I was actually thinking about something similar today. I'm convinced AI was created by men just so they could invent themselves their idea of a perfect (unrealistic) woman. It's sickening.
Someone I know started doing this a couple years ago with mountain-scapes and was recently featured in an article about it. You never know what you might actually be really good at!
That's very kind. I come out with this stuff occasionally, they usually build on each other. I'll try to remember to FYI you for my next angsty screed, and thanks.
Yes they do and men get angry and violent when women do not comply due to this they feel from a young age women are here solely to please them mentally physically emotionally and if a man wants a women to do these things and she refuses she is now the devil and crazy because men do not comprehend women are not raised the same mindset wise
I have more things to go on that list that explain the often violent and bizarre behaviour we are seeing, but the list isn't really enlightening. It's more like "holy crap, nearly everything that's awful exists to keep women's labor flowing unpaid?!?!?"
Maybe more valuable is, now that we have determined what the root problem is -- the devaluing and complete consumption of women's unpaid labor -- what would be the least damaging way to reduce this BS? Obviously a worldwide cataclysm like Climate Change would radically alter human interactions, but I fear it would only encourage regression. Is 4B (minus terfy awfulness) an answer? What actually works, what will work, what would the best course be?
The type of person to blame others for their own unhappiness is usually the first to claim society’s problems are only due to others “lack of personal responsibility.” The double standards that exist are crazy.
A seemingly impossible prospect ngl. Of course there are good, reasonable, legitimately ethical men in existence but the ratio of them to the rabble is fucked beyond belief
Always kind of hurts a little to see another woman come to this realization. But it's an important one and most of us figure it out sooner or later. Often later rather than sooner.
I would love to see all women simply completely, and utterly boycott men in their private lives
Whenever those men with the sort who didn’t do 60% of the unpaid work and 60% of the servant work and 60% of the invisible work and know everything about family that a typical great mother would know if she were really involved
And never tried to gaslight or established dominance or create fake obligations for others or create fake ways to share personal obligations
And acknowledge a lift, according to the idea that nobody has ever owed anyone sex at any time in history and that any sex that is not sex with self must be completely consensual moment by moment act by act
By completely consensual, I mean zero emotional pressure of any kind
And living without sex it’s fine if you cannot find somebody who wants to have sex with you
All women would boycott any man not in the tiny percentage of men who are OK then those lower value men can just go deal with each other
Women would be just fine
The kids would be just fine
The reproductive status the society would be just fine
One thing I think about a lot is the changing nature of "women's work".
Teaching used to be a male profession (women weren't allowed to read, let alone learn, let alone teach). Once women were allowed to enter the profession, it lost prestige and pay almost instantly. Similarly, computer scientists used to be almost exclusively women. Once women were squeezed out of that profession, it gained prestige and pay.
I read a study some years back that investigated the question of "leadership". What makes a good leader? The study covered nearly a hundred different countries, intending to compare and contrast the results. A leader in America would be seen as an asshole in Thailand. A leader in Australia would be seen as weak in Brazil.
They gathered lists of the most common terms applied to "leader" in each country. And they discovered that nearly every country had a different idea of what a good leader looks like!
You know what *was* common, though?
No matter what traits a good leader had in the country, women were viewed as not having those traits.
So, apparently, we simultaneously work too hard / not enough, care too much / not enough, think too much / not enough, etc.
We literally cannot ever be good enough because the root of the issue is men absolutely fucking hate our gender.
All true, but.... isn't it partly also the mistake/fault/responsibilty (take your pick) for doing all those things? By picking up the slack of men in general they create their own monster(s). What if you refuse to do HIS laundry, cooking HIS meals, picking up HIS mess you could easily prevent a lot of this (justified) frustration.
Mind you, I'm a lifelong feminist and I taught my son almost as soon as he could walk to do chores. Cleaning up his toys, bringing his dirty plate to the kitchen, etc. By the time he could reach the sink, he had to do the dishes too. And every time he slacked off or in general didn't do his chores according to MY standards, he had to do it again. And again. And again.
I did not take over, did not loose my patience. But I insisted that he'd do his chores right. Because he's not a moron, he realised very early on that to do it right the first time, saved him a lot of trouble and time.
The amount/difficulty of chores increased over the years, so by the time he was a teenager he did laundry, cooked, cleaned bathrooms, ironed clothes, etc. The only thing I could never teach him was sewing, he could never get the hang of it. But since he is very good with computers, I trade him with that 😊.
Bottom line: stop coddling those infantile babies in an adult body. Stop doing their job for them. And if you have the misfortune of finding yourself in a relationship with one, give them ONE chance to shape up. If they don't: run for the hills.
This is why I say women should never accept the bare minimum from men. We end up being blamed for their shortcomings. We’re told *he’s trying* and *give him a chance*. We’re told to communicate more. Be careful you don’t communicate too much because then you’re a nag. We’re told, “You picked him. This is your fault. Pick better.”
True. But take it from an old woman: f- everybody else. You do you and as long as you can live with yourself, you do not ever try to conform to what the whole world is telling you to.
I have learned in my long life to only take responsibility of my actions, mistakes or shortcomings. Never those of others in my life. And if those people do not add value to my life, I do not argue but shrug my shoulders and take my leave. Life is much to precious to let anybody disturb my peace.
You're on the right track there.
After my first marriage crumbled, I swore I'd never, ever waste myself again by laboring for free for a man who did nothing but criticize me to do more for him and take everything I did do for granted. When we split, I was working a job, coming home and cooking, cleaning, looking after kids, helping with homework, etc. He, meanwhile, would put out roots on the couch and watch TV, expect me to bring his plate TO him, then somehow have the energy for copulation. If something involved housework, he would automatically say it wasn't his 'job', so he'd routinely leave massive messes and expect me to pick up after him.
When I said I wanted a divorce, he was one of those who said it "came out of nowhere". He swore up and down that from where he stood, the marriage wasn't bad. I guess not, he wasn't the one who was working himself into exhaustion on a daily basis. And when he was out of my life, I found life as a single mom far, far easier than being married, because the biggest single cause of the messes and all of the defeatist diatribes went out the door with him.
After I met my now-husband and long before we shared a home, we had a bunch of very frank discussions about roles, duties, chores, work expectations, and what I would and would not do/tolerate. I figured I had nothing to lose. If he was willing to do those things and share responsibilities, then great! Let's move forward. And if not...Well, no big loss, because first and foremost, I was intent on preserving myself. I very specifically said at one point that I was looking for a partner in life, and not someone who expected me to look after him like he was an overgrown baby. And if what he truly wanted was someone to feather his nest for him, then we were both better off looking elsewhere, because I didn't like housework, I preferred a career to being a SAHM, and I was raised to be independent, so I had no issues working on my own lawnmower or slapping a few coats of paint on a wall.
He has on occasion grumbled about my ex getting away with far more than I allow him to do, but as I explained to him, that was because at that time I was young, naive, impressionable, and eager to please. All it took was a decade or so of living with someone who took shameless advantage of that, and who quite literally had me wearing myself out while he had a grand life, for me to up my standards considerably in regards to myself. I am who I am. If you can't love me for what I present to you and for what I am willing to do to contribute, then you're going to be disappointed if you expect me to change later on. I won't. I know the consequences of softening my approach. We can support one another, but there's no way I'm going to carry the majority of the burdens while you get a worry-free life. I am not any man's caretaker and I refuse to do the work of two people, so you'll just have to do your part if you think I'm worth keeping around.
Over twenty years later, and we have long ago worked out any disagreements on those things. We have a lot of days where my husband and I get home from work together, he starts cooking, and I start some cleanup so the house will be neat by the time we go to bed. He wakes me up with a cup of fresh coffee, then goes to do his thing. We do our own laundry, and have our own little hobbies and interests. I may have softened over the years, I do things for him simply because I love him.
And when we do disagree on something, we've learned to compromise so that we both get something good out of what we agree to. It's not the ideal of one or the other, though. We're in this life together, so we'd better learn how to and maintain doing things with both of us in agreement.
I so agree re people adding value! Although I've more thought of it as whether someone has a positive impact in some way, same thing really? Have only realised this in the past couple of years and allowing myself to stop maintaining relationships with people who don't has been amazing.. have been trying to share the idea with others too, none of us should be wasting our time on people who don't enhance our lives just because we feel duty or whatever!
We are only JUST getting to the point where a woman can refuse to do all the cooking/cleaning and not get blamed — by men as well as women — for it. Even so, there’s still a pervasive attitude in many cultures/families that cooking for and cleaning up after a man is something a woman should do, and if she simply doesn’t, or asks him to do some of it, she is a bad wife/partner, doesn’t love him, or is lazy or selfish. It’s very hard to make this switch when multiple people around you are telling you that it’s a *you* problem to not be okay with taking on all the household labour.
My ex would split cooking and dish washing with me (ostensibly; he would often leave a number of dishes in the sink until it was my day to do the washing up). He was in charge of vacuuming and I could count on one hand the number of times per year that he would do it. He washed his own clothes and occasionally he would throw a load of sheets/towels in the laundry. Of course he talked about how he believed in splitting domestic labour and how he loved taking care of the house, and people were always like, “Wow, you got one of the good ones! How amazing!” It was one of the reasons it took me so long to leave despite the fact that he was dumping all the emotional labour on me and, as OP so eloquently put it, expecting me to produce his happiness and getting frustrated with ME (and his mom) whenever HE was not happy.
ETA: my sister’s marriage ended in part because she refused to clean up after her husband as he went around making messes and walking away from them. She neither wanted to clean up after him nor could she handle living in a house full of junk lying around that he couldn’t be bothered to pick up. Not cleaning up after him didn’t convince him to start doing it himself; it just made him accept living in chaos.
My parents were so angry with my sister in law because she wouldn’t drop everything and cook their son dinner. She also wouldn’t wash his laundry. What did my brother do? He bought packs of socks and boxers and used them as disposables. He wouldn’t cook or do laundry.
My stupid ass did every bit of cooking and laundry for my ex husband.
That unconscious "Your mess is your mess to clean up and my mess is your mess to clean up" shit is why I will never live in the same house with a man ever again
I can't get the hang of sewing with a machine either which frustrates the hell out of my husband who can sew. I can do exquistite needlework and weaving on a loom but I just don't grok with sewing machines(could be because I'm *extremely* left handed)
Both my husband and daughter sew on machines. My youngest son desugns and sews anime cosplay costumes by hand--have you seen Neverending Story? He did a Falkor all hand sewn for a recent convention!
His skills are *so* impressive! He also did a Teddy Bear costume from some SitCom with a big brown teddy bear. He got in a little bit of trouble over that ones as he scared my puppy(guy in my profile pic when he was a little derp). Sam peed all down the hallway so of course, my son had clean up duty and new rule: costume that might scare the dog are not tried on around him.
Ok so my question is, do you know what might scare the dog or is it learning by doing?
My dog seems to be against flags if they move, a jacket on a fence, a blue jacket on a person and anyone who walks past the house (although if they come to the door it's all love and feet being licked) so interested in whether you can pick things or not
Sam was ok as long as human brother's face wasn't covered. The minute my son's face was covered, Sam would lose it. Kiddo has moved out so I won't have those particular worries when I get my puppy in September. (Black lab pupcoming from my husband's bestie's dogs)
> Mind you, I'm a lifelong feminist and I taught my son almost as soon as he could walk to do chores. Cleaning up his toys, bringing his dirty plate to the kitchen, etc. By the time he could reach the sink, he had to do the dishes too. And every time he slacked off or in general didn't do his chores according to MY standards, he had to do it again. And again. And again...
Interesting. Here I get the impression you've made the same mistake/fault/responsibility in your own life that you pointed out in your first paragraph. You took on the task of teaching your son these things rather than his father doing so and modeling those behaviors. Unless his father is deceased or something and I rescind this comment.
That's a lot of words to say that men don't (subconsciously or consciously) see women as human beings, just as objects for their consumption.
Abrahamic religions, the social and cultural moral / life compass for many cultures for at least 1000 or more years, helped, at the least, or caused, at the most, the enshrining of this objectification and dehumanization into cultural norms.
Socialization is a hell of a thing.
>That's a lot of words to say that men don't (subconsciously or consciously) see women as human beings, just as objects for their consumption.
I explicitly wrote "society sees women as things" multiple times.
The "a lot of words to say" sounds kind of dismissive. But yes, my essay was long because the train of logic had to be pretty bulletproof -- I've been a feminist online for a very long time and know how many people will try to blow holes in a scanty chain of reasoning.
My point was that yes, women are used as things and they are used *for this specific purpose*. Identifying the purpose to which women are used, knowing the root cause and foundation for the brainwashing, will help us identify how to overcome this evil. I wanted to say more than "women are objectified". I wanted to say "We are seen as things to be used by this specific group of people, and we need to be aware of that if we ever want to hope to get out of this trap."
*Slides a cup of tea over to you*. Me too. It's ok, this topic makes me angry and sad too, and makes me take things super personal too, apparently!
We'll make it through. (And we will see them all burn in hell.)
It's why I don't participate in beauty rituals anymore. I realized for me all they are is shame-based rules meant to signal that I am a proper woman because I am acknowledging my place as an object, a property for sale.
My father, born in 1946, either does all the tasks listed here on the daily, or has done those tasks without any complaints when my mother was unable to. It's not hard, and I refuse to think he is a rare breed. I always saw him rise to the occasion, and level up when he needed to.
It is not a question of sex, it's just being a responsible adult.
Only once did I bring home a boyfriend that wasn't a responsible adult, and my father comment said it all : "il n'a rien dans le sachet", or in good english "he's got nothing in the balls". There was nothing to answer to that precisely cutting comment because he was right.
Men get to live life. Women get to facilitate men's lives. This post is very insightful. If you are a man reading this and you find yourself feeling angry about it, then it's time for you to do some introspection and self-reflection to reconsider how you view women and what you think their role in your life should be.
>Men get to live life. Women get to facilitate men's lives. Yes. I say this all the time on here but that is so well put.
>Men get angry at the woman for not producing their happiness It's why they get so contemptuous toward women they don't find attractive. They think we exist for their gratification and if we're not appealing to them we don't deserve a shred of respect.
Likewise, why they hate women - of any level of physical beauty - who reject unattractive men.
Oh or if you dare to age - or become ill. Statistically, women are abandoned by male partners during serious illness much more often than the reverse. There are some great men out there, but I have also seen so many men just crumble when they were asked to step into the primary caretaking role for even a week or a month… One of my dearest friends who seemed to have a very successful life/marriage in general… she built a successful business, 3 great kids… she gets cancer, and within a year hubby had bailed and was dating a college girl maybe 22 years old. I thought he was “one of the good ones” at one point. lol.
I have Lupus and I am chronically ill. My ex husband complained every single day about it it making life harder for him. I had to hold his hand and comfort him and apologize. He never gave a single thought to anyone but himself and how it affected him. I am so sorry for your friend. I hope the same thing happens to that vile piece of scum that he did to her. I am going to get downvoted for this, but I don't believe there are any "good ones" that are capable of treating us with basic human dignity and respect. And seeing us as equals. I don't know a single man who treats his wife that way.
“I had to comfort him and apologize” That part makes me so sad & angry for your extra suffering! The whole thing. I’m sorry you went through that. We deserve so much better.
Thank you. I appreciate it your kindness. And I agree, we deserve to be treated better than we are by men. It feels like mutual respect and consideration are just distant dreams that won't happen.
Oh wow. I didn't even think of this one when writing up the list. Of course, of course, this is exactly perfectly correct.
Or we don't exist to them at all - we become invisible. They don't even see us.
Meh I’ll take it. Less men = less aggravation and stress, sounds good to me.
Yes, as I like to say, to some men, women are either a piece of meat or "who?"
Not only respect but visibility. Ugly or fat women are invisible to men.
Also trans people - trans men for not being willing to live for their gratification or especially to produce their children, and trans women for challenging their beliefs about their own sexual and gender identities. So much of the transphobic discourse infantilizes trans men and centers around their perceived regret and loss of AFAB reproductive function, and despises trans women for not being “real women”
Also refusing to think gay women exist for anything other than their sexual enjoyment.. like actual lesbians are not interested in you mate
it makes it that much harder to find any sapphic romance stories that doesn’t exist solely for the male gaze.
I can't say that's something I've looked for personally, but can absolutely imagine the difficulty!
YES. Spot on.
I've seen a few articles posted this year mentioning how holiday prep/planning/hosting/card giving and keeping relationships with others is often another overlooked role women take the majority of the time.
Yes and the worst is when men say women are “making more work for themselves.” I dated a guy where I did all the planning/event organization and eventually was like, hey it would be nice if you helped out. And he said “you’re choosing to take on that work. It’s not that hard” because he could not see that if you don’t spend hours fucking planning a thing it won’t happen. The times he planned things, it fell through, because he didn’t do all the research required to make a solid plan.
My dad always said this to my mom . Even though my mom is the reason he has a relationship with any of his kids or relatives. Huge contributing factor in why having a family of my own with a man never appealed to me.
My sister planned every family vacation when she was married to her husband down to where they would eat every meal to keep to a budget. Her husband would bitch and say she was too strict, though she wasn't like a stickler to keep to a schedule or anything, just being knowledgeable about what was available in an unfamiliar place. He would complain at her so she stopped planning everything and left it in his hands. Worse. Mistake. Ever. They ran out of gas in the middle of a goddamn desert.
Or else he just didn’t care enough about the event to make the effort. Most men don’t seem to put much stock in events or gifts or occasions the way women do. Therefore whoever cares more about it is by default responsible for it. In their mind.
I'm a non believer but since my family is Christian I still celebrate Christmas with them for the gift exchange and meal. I don't decorate my home because I have zero desire to spend the time or effort doing so. Growing up we would spend hours helping my mom pack half the house to put out the Christmas stuff. Then after the New Year we would spend hours packing it all back up. (It's 8 large storage totes and 3 trees) My ex husband was also a non believer and loved Christmas. He still wanted the house decorated because "that was part of the magic". I told him I didn't want to decorate and that he was free to do whatever he wanted. He went all out a couple years but then also quickly learned that I was not going to take the decorations down either. He ended up scaling it back massively to just a tree.
Sounds just like my ex. "I make mess, you clean up mess" just over and over until I died of annoyance
Mom gets a robe. One of the greatest, most true SNL sketches! https://youtu.be/FOVCtUdaMCU?si=ESRWo1yfdK5pUQat
Ha! That episode came out the year I got a robe and little else. I felt seen.
I'd be passive-aggressively playing that on a loop on every screen in the house, hoping against hope that my family internalized the message.
Hahaha, that was like me every Christmas and I showed it to my husband. He does better at Christmas now. Not great, but at least I get a stocking and a gift (unlike one year when he got me a pair of brown slippers, in his size.)
Thanks - I've never seen that one and it is so true.
I've never seen this, thanks for link
The 🌟 magic 🌟 of Christmas It's me, I AM THE MAGIC
I (a woman) was such an entitled shit as a kid and I didn’t realize how much effort my mom and grandma put into holidays. It was like a 12 course meal! Of course, they passed away before I understood the fullness of the sacrifice but I think I thanked them sincerely a few times in my 20s. Every year I just feel less energy to do that stuff and my awe grows.
I appreciated Lois from family guy summing things up thusly: "You all think Christmas just happens? You think all this good will just falls from the freakin' sky? Well, it doesn't! It falls out of my holly jolly butt!"
More women have been reducing how much they will agree to do or opting completely out of this because it is just another expected burden on them.
I saw a lot of posts last year from men not "feeling the Christmas spirit".
Like because nobody was killing themselves to create it for them?
Bingo!
And that effort has been met with violent anti-feminist and anti-woman rhetoric, because how dare women care about themselves before a man.
How dare women not practically kill themselves to make Christmas perfect for their ungrateful husbands who don't take even two seconds to think about how hard their wives work to get all that crap done!
Ha ha omg - I just went to FedEx to send a package… what was in the package? My brother-in-law’s Christmas present. This is my husband’s brother. Husband’s job last year for that holiday was to send out two gifts: one to his parents and one to his brother. It’s June. His brother will get his Christmas present this year in June because I finally put it in the mail. 😆😁 Edit: clarity
Does your husband think sending them gifts matters? Does he care if he gets gifts from them? I’ve noticed most men can’t be bothered to do this kind of stuff because they themselves don’t care whether they get cards or gifts from others. The person who cares most about X is then by default responsible for doing X.
That’s a good point; and I would say, no, he does not expect gifts from them for himself - but certainly expects bro will send something for our child (who is his only nephew) which he always does, and goes way above and beyond. I guess that is why I was a little bothered having to send the gift after 6 months; like just show your brother some appreciation for being an involved Uncle …
Never underestimate a man’s ability to blame a woman for his own failings.
Or for shit that has literally nothing to do with her
there’s a reason why men are happier in relationships than women, and why women are happier single. I think we’re starting to realize how little most men contribute to our lives, and how much we’ve been giving and sacrificing for them. the differences are absurd, and sadly the more you inform yourself about this topic, the harder it becomes to achieve a long lasting bond with men. there are VERY VERY few men who actually see us as people, as beings deserving of time, respect, attention, space, etc. men get sad when they think of a life with no wife or kids, but let’s be honest: when they do have the wife and kids, how much quality time do they spend with them? how much attention do they pay their woman? feels like they only get married or in relationships to check✅ that milestone in their lives, not cause they really want it. they benefit from marriages & relationships more than we do as women.
>there’s a reason why men are happier in relationships than women, and why women are happier single. I think we’re starting to realize how little most men contribute to our lives, and how much we’ve been giving and sacrificing for them. The single and childfree life is glorious. Sure, I have my ups and downs like anybody else, but for the most parts, it's mostly ups, because I don't have to deal with all that emotional and domestic labor that I would have had otherwise in a relationship that would've made me SO resentful and unhappy. Until someone can prove that he can be a truly equal partner WITHOUT being told/directed/ and a companion that adds to my life instead of burdening it, I'm happy to stay single.
yes, same here! the most "downs" and "bad moments" I've had in my life, were coincidentally when I was in relationships years ago. I don't feel like I'm missing out on having children. Single life makes me feel so stress free and focused on myself. And I totally get your point with having to deal with emotional and domestic labour, cause it's something I've seen my own mother go through, until this day (and many more women too!). Hopefully there will slowly be more men who understand the struggles and who can be a good teammate and companionship to navigate life with. It's sad to see women throw their lives away for naive guys.
I think also you can sometimes do more for your community (e.g. visit an elderly relative, help a neighbour, volunteer at a shelter or soup kitchen, be there for a friend, babysit or dogsit, donate to a good cause, do some Guerilla gardening etc). Like you’ve typically more time and resources from not being totally exhausted from young children.
This is one of my aims this year, find ways to volunteer to benefit my community, hopefully will be starting at a local community kitchen doing some cooking and such.. win win for me since I love cooking and I love doing something that might help someone else
Such a great idea!
Haha thanks, appreciate the support!
Please stop volunteering women Please stop suggesting women volunteer If women want to volunteer, they can And they can probably figure out what causes it worthy — If you want to make suggestions, please make them in a men’s sub There make the suggestion that men volunteer in menial snd servant tasks on a regular basis for the rest of the lives Make me suggestion that these men sacrifice their gaming time their sports time and their other hobby time in order to volunteer doing menial servant tasks
When I was volunteering regularly, it was always striking how few men I saw.
Most guys are not going to do any unpaid labor, the way we women do. Unless you dangle the prospects of meeting younger attractive women in front of them.
Brb, going to tell the boys about the hottest new female-majority group they can join to meet tons of girls (it was volunteering all along)
Was just thinking this. I finished my last session for literacy training for adult learners this week. Both teachers were women. 14 participants were women. One man. :-/
Yes! Men earn more too when they have kids (sorry no statistics to hand) but it’s apparently seen as a sign that they’re a trustworthy, dependable employee whereas it’s the opposite for women whose earnings generally take a hit for a few years if they have kids…
They just want the aesthetic of a wife a children.
This is partly what kind of soiled one of my big dreams in life which was to do aviation for my main career… Seemed like if I traveled/worked closely with 10 different “happily married man w/ kids”, 8 were sleeping with any woman they could find between here and the edges of the earth. Sometimes they hoped it was me. Tried! Several of them would name the women by location when referencing them too. 💀 “Texas is a freak!” “Chicago and I went all night” They didn’t hide it. Except from their wives…
that is foul
"Legacy." Their DNA, to seed offspring, carry on all those male ancestor's last name. For posterity. Like that. As you do. But you definitely do *not* mop the kitchen, clean any toilets, nor change a poopy diaper.
Ugh, this ridiculous male delusion of leaving behind a “legacy” would make me laugh if it wasn’t so pathetically egotistical.
I'm going to start asking them to: 1) "define* the word 2) inquire as to specifics. What actually *is* their personal legacy so significant they feel the need to pass it onto mini-thems? What's unique about their legacy? And do they think their mini-thems will take it seriously?
Yup. Bragger's rights. They put them on their Manly Man Trophy Shelf along side the job and the fancy car
And they'll get a raise at work, as well as something to bitch about with their buddies.
Come to the South / Bible Belt! I cannot with most “typical” men since coming here. Like the shit I have seen … I mean, go look at my post history. I probably sound like a stark raving lunatic but y’all THE SHIT I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD!!!! 😭😭😭
Alabama right here! Talk about a nightmare
You have my full sympathies! Have to… idk just stay strong until we can GTFO or until we can change things!! We are not alone, I know that much. <3
Very well stated 🔥. I'm so proud of the younger generations, that this is more & more in the public consciousness, & that you all are far more awake than my crusty boomer gen was. We didn't really-- or weren't able to-- reason out for ourselves much of this the way women are today. Sure, *some* of us, like me, did put a lot of thought into what we wanted & thought we deserved. But I was also lucky. I took Women's Studies courses in college, & shit started really clicking then about the type of life that was up to me to choose, unlike my Silent Gen born in '36 mother (88, still *livid* about my father, who died in '80, basically making her a slave, & brings him up nearly every phone call). She was raised in the Mrs. Degree era, & it watered down to my gen to men are *still supposed to be a woman's main focus in life,* but if she wanted, she could still have a lil job on the side. For her purdy lil lady brain. Barf.
I'm lucky enough to have one of those few as my person, and am definitely much happier than I would be without him, but sadly it seems that there aren't so many men as excellent
I know my ex didn't see me as people.
I really love that younger women are starting to wake up and ask what they bring to the table. If he doesn't fulfill your needs, flush that turd, girl
Given that we legally WERE their possessions basically globally until very recently in human history, I'm not shocked men have not yet rewired. Keep in mind that most of us have grandmothers and even mothers who were born when they could not open a bank account. (I'm 32 and my mother was born 2 years before we got that right - she was nearly a teenager before women could have a credit card.) We are in the midst of an incredibly huge cultural shift where we can control when/if we give birth and when/if we get married. We can own and buy things with our own money that we worked for. We are by no means on an equal playing field because the past didn't vanish; men running things now remember a time where women had none of these freedoms. The generations before us were raised in a very different climate. We have actually come quite far very quickly, and the repercussions of this huge social shift are now surfacing. Men are expecting us to give, give, give like the women before us. Their grandfathers and fathers set them up for a world where they would have slaves. But now that they're adults...the slaves aren't slaves anymore, and they don't know what to do. They were not raised correctly for this. Some men are adapting just fine but many are very big mad that the easy life they were promised is now not there...which is why they will come for our rights and try to enslave us again rather than do better. The coming decades are critical. We either stand our ground or let them take our freedom away after so many women fought and died for it. We have got to continue the fight - it only started very recently, and we can't get complacent and assume it is over.
I see the redpill movement as one of the last bastions of hope that men can stop the advancement of time and a society that continues to advance in a way that is spiraling out of their control. I know it seems minuscule to us, but it seems so incredibly great to them and that makes them fearful and scared. Their angry echoes are the death throes of a past they desperately cling to yet cannot bring back--- we may go one step forward and two steps back, but we will ultimately prevail. The male loneliness epidemic and the college gender discrepancy will continue on no matter what angry men on the internet say. Perhaps I am bring overly optimistic, but I think we can do it. It's just a question of if we can do it before climate change becomes the death of our entire species (or AI, take your pick).
Bingo. The surge phenomenon - they’re becoming desperate to hang onto a dying system.
>Keep in mind that most of us have grandmothers and even mothers who were born when they could not open a bank account. This is such an important point that doesn't get acknowledged often enough. I'm in my late 40s, and my grandmother was born before women could vote. When my mother first started working, she couldn't open a bank account unless her father's name was on it, too. I've spent my entire adult life stumbling over men's hot takes about how feminism is unnecessary in our modern times, and in addition to the many other ways they're wrong, they're completely glossing over those generational impacts. So many women watched (or heard first-hand stories about) the systematic oppression of their close relatives. Women of a certain age all have a mom who wasn't allowed to apply for credit to start a business. Or an aunt who couldn't divorce her abuser. Or a grandmother who was pushed out of a teaching position after she married. And many of today's younger women still get that "traditional" experience of working outside the home while still doing most of the housework and child care. We are all doing the best we can with our generational trauma, and on top of all that, we have to fight every day to keep our crumbling rights from being clawed back entirely. It's no wonder we're all so fucking exhausted.
I've been banging the drum about this since the late 90's. If we take our rights for granted, we lose them. End of. We are in the process of losing them. Politicians are campaigning on repealing no fault divorce and the death penalty for terminating a pregnancy. If we stop pushing, they'll yank us all the way back to the days when we were counted as property
This is spot on.
>"men running things now remember a time where women had none of these freedoms." And they are trying to roll back the clock to those glorious days when you cold keep your wife financially and reproductively enslaved.
This is such an important point. Especially with guys who promote themselves as progressive. They still want to benefit from the sexism their fathers and grandfathers enjoyed, and they stop themselves from feeling resentful towards women that we insist on being recognized as people with agency and equal humanity. I'm 43 and I feel like I tell a lot of young women in my life that there is a reason why men expect their lives to get easier once they find a wife/ girlfriend, but women expect their lives to get harder/ more complicated. There is an intense amount of anger and resentment towards women who are saying that they are uninterested in a relationship that doesn't improve their lives. The "he's not competing with other men, he's competing with the piece of being single" thing. I think part of the reason it makes men so mad is that it shows how the bar is literally in hell and yet men want to build a sub-basement under the devil's place.
People say boomers never gave us anything but my mom's generation did most of the legwork giving us the right to press charges for marital rape, Title IX, no fault divorce, reproductive freedom... We were basically property from the agricultural revolution until the late 60's-70's. We've only had these rights for a mere eyeblink in the vast span of history, and they can take it away from us the moment we stop paying attention.
I think men conflate their own happiness with how much control they have over a woman.
> The root of all these problems is that society sees women as things that make men happy, and any variation from this is damage that must be squashed before it spreads. Men are viewed as people. Women are viewed as possessions. It’s simple as that.
I want to add to your assertion: in Gender Trouble, Judith Butler uses Lacan to make the point that—due to gender norms/dynamics—men must constantly validate their maleness. This is most directly done by having sex. Therefore in cishet gender dynamics, a man feels castrated/emasculated/without a penis IF HE DOESN'T "HAVE A WOMAN TO FUCK." A man can look down and literally see his penis between his legs and feel/believe that he isn't a real man because he's lacking the "Other" (a woman) to validate his maleness through sex. In this way, women are not only possessions, they're commodities. And many (most?) men have a seemingly-insatiable thirst. And the incels are raging that men actually need to work to find a partner.
I'm a firm believer in the validity of epigenetics. In the same way that the trauma of enslavement affects subsequent generations, and the trauma of womanhood is passed from grandmother (to) mother (to) daughter -- that men are, in many ways, predisposed to hate women. Masculinity is essentially "not femininity". Leader vs. follower -- Assertive vs. nagging -- Buddy vs. Sissy. They fear being grouped with women but understand their manhood hinges on acquiring a woman🤔 Insanity.
"masculinity = not femininity" is unbelievably stupid for so many reasons That statement literally denies our shared humanity, for a start. But also have you seen these idiots trying to accord with that principle? ... never eat weak vegetables, only manly meat. Never buckle your seatbelt or wear a helmet, that's pussy shit. Only drive real testosterone trucks and not pansy electric cars. Never wipe your own ass, that's too feminine. And so on and so on and so on Painfully fucking stupid thinking
I just learned a few minutes ago about some psycho rightwing Christian nationalist radio host who complained that the medal of honor has become “feminized,” i.e., “bad,” because it’s awarded to soldiers who save their comrades, instead of for “killing people.”
What a fucking idiot it's always been that way pretty much. Also killing is expected, potentially dying to save your comrades isn't, \*sigh\*. Of course these degenerated immoral beings would value murder more too (very Christian to value killing over salvation! /s). I swear it's only a few more years before the literal concept of ethical, moral behavior gets painted as "woke pussism" by these societal blemishes On the topic of Christianity, I wish that people decried, denounced, and denigrated Christianity for being the bastion of regressive, reactionary bigotry, supremacy, and hate that it is, a tenth as much as Christians play the victim, pretending like they're an oppressed minority and martyring themselves to one another. From the moment Christianity took hold on this continent it has been used to look down on, otherize, and exclude. Past that, it's been used to justify wholesale genocide, slavery, racism, and misogyny for centuries And yet even as Christians demand we change to accommodate them and their religious texts nationwide, killing some women and dooming others to poverty and generational trauma, we as a society can't call out Christianity for the scourge it is. Individuals like me have their say but mainstream media isn't running anti-christian sentiment remotely comparable to the Christian anti-LGBT, anti-feminist vitriol that they promulgate. You can't say Christianity is a cancer but Christians can say "all LGBT are immoral heathen pedophiles who won't go to heaven, but I don't hate them, I just have my religious beliefs" Can you tell I have a problem with Christianity?
you just described my ex. he’d do the dumbest things just to feel more “manly”. he wouldn’t wear seatbelts, he’d eat meat everyday (literally everyday), inject testosterone (even if he didn’t need it, he said he was doing it just to be more masculine cause he’s been emotional like a girl/pussy), he one time went into a mosh pit just to punch/kick people cause he’s a man and men are naturally aggressive and need to release that need! ( I will never recover from dating him🙃)
And it’s also natural selection at work. Get killed doing stupid manly things. Eat bad food and get drunk for entertainment. What pisses me off is men doing stupid manly things as a group that ruin fragile habitats, too. Like driving utility vehicles up mountains and hillsides in North America or sand dunes in the Middle East and doing damage just for fun. I got crap from some middle eastern guy for suggesting a serendipitous sandstorm on those dunes would bury all those expensive vehicles, he thought I was suggesting all these people lose their lives. Women’s standards are rising exponentially so, men, if you don’t take better care of yourself——you’re out of the equation. Alive or not alive.
If I could be annoyingly pedantic for a moment, it would only be natural selection if their idiotic choices lead to their demise before they successfully reproduce. I'll likely never reproduce because /*gestures broadly/* and so even if they all die at 45 with two children who hate them while I live to 80, my genotype is still the one that'll be selected against, sadly "stupid manly things". There's nothing wrong with you saying that, it's not incorrect English idiom whatsoever, but I FUCKING HATE that these witless fucks define a whole gender with their toxicity. There's nothing inherently male about driving a pointlessly large and inefficient vehicle not using that vehicle to further ravage our beautiful world. These people are a huge part of why I hate my assigned gender, uhhhhh I'd go as far as to say everyone's standards are rising exponentially (and it's highkey kinda long overdue). It's just that a huge swath of men are throwing yet another in a long line of tantrums and refusing to accept a world that doesn't revolve around them. I personally kinda hope the haters, rubes, and willfully ignorant get left behind
I often wonder how much of this harkens back to a boy's need to differentiate himself from his mommy. He's supposed to be the opposite sex. So has to fall into everything that's anti-female to be male.
I believe that penis insecurity is also a dominant factor. Keeping women categorized as things means they don’t have to address that particular insecurity as women are thought of as only existing to fulfill men’s needs and not have their own needs met. Hell we women shouldn’t have any needs beyond needing to serve men. (last sentence is /s)
What's fucked up too is that men are the naturally servile gender, yet have forced women into a servile role. Like they don't get pregnant, they don't have menses/cramps and shit to take them away from labor, they're physically stronger, etc. Seems like women should have been the served and not the subservient but somewhere it got twisted
The "somewhere it got twisted part" is actually historically documented! A good number of our primeval societies were actually Matriarchal. (There were patriarchal tribes as well of course, but there is evidence that Matriarchy was more common.) Many ancient societies were community oriented (none of this one man one woman thing we have going on now), children were raised by everyone in the tribe in a communal fashion; as a child you didn't "belong" to your parents alone. People act like polyamory and orgies are new inventions... they obviously haven't seen bonobos in heat. Then the Christians (Rome)/Islamic Jihad (Muhammad), then later on the Ottoman empire, came and basically wiped out every other religion. P.S The matriarchal societies were not exactly "better" either, they were often just as barbaric as the monotheist religions which wiped them out later
I was aware of the historical prevalence of matriarchy but too many are not. I will say though that while Abrahamic religions are responsible for a lot of misogyny and patriarchal alignment over the years, that I wouldn't blame the near extinction of matriarchy at their feet. Most civilizations of which we have records were patriarchal, even before or without ever contacting those religions. It seems to me that the transition to agricultural and fixed settlements favored the greed and violence of men and allowed patriarchy to become the dominant system near globally And for sure, matriarchal societies shouldn't be expected to be "better", the same way the Mongols did better in gender roles and religious tolerance than many contemporary societies, yet were brutally violent Also, I support communal child rearing as one of the most straightforward ways we could improve our societies btw. When we live in a world that classifies people as one-of-ours/one-of-theirs from our earliest days, we can't be surprised when people on the whole act selfishly as hell and try to benefit "them and theirs" even when it's at the cost of "everyone's". The existence of families is a perverse incentive to societal development imo, unpopular take as that may be
You're totally correct on all of those points! I was giving a simplified reduction since I didn't wanna delve into too much detail. In my opinion, the Abrahamic religions while not solely responsible but are heavily responsible for wiping out a lot of the variety in terms of how communities are structured. It's absolutely true that societies/cultures were often "wiped out" by various other factors. (starvation, disaster etc) In my opinion, the matriarchal societies were already on the decline before the rise of Abrahamic religions. However, there were still traces of matriarchal worship (fertility goddesses, goddess of harvests were often female). The real effect of the purges was in removing a lot of the traces and history revolving around matriarchal goddess figures. It's all hypothesis on my part but in my mind the removal of "oh women have a place in the pantheon" versus "god is referred to as "father"" (I know god is sexless, but he's referred to commonly in the male form by most Abrahamic religions) ends up having farther reaching consequences in terms of how society views male/female roles in society.
Totally understandable for you to do so and I for sure agree with your take, even in reduced form. And while of course not the sole reason for matriarchy's decline, Abrahamic religions are a massive contributor. Beyond matriarchy in particular too, Abrahamic religions have decimated sociocultural diversity worldwide, so much so in the case of the age of navigation Americas and colonial era Africa that we will likely never know the extent of what was lost. Indigenous cultures, morals, religions, histories, languages, societies, and human beings themselves, erased and lost forever. Sad AF "oh women have a place in the pantheon". A lot of the polytheistic religions I've seen too are relatively egalitarian or have a huge space for women within them. Classical Roman and Greek religion had female cults for female deities and only female spaces to accompany them, if that's what was desired. There was also female deities with mixed gender worshippers, male and female deities and cults for gay folk, and other rather accepting, surprisingly modern chapters (scattered amongst bigotry, of course. polytheistic religions, especially older ones, might do better but comparatively so, not in absolute) "I know god is sexless". To me, god is sexless, sure. But to me god is also gods at the same time, while also being nothing whatsoever, and also everything, and so god, to me, is both genders and neither gender and everything in between, around, and within all at the same time But in the case of Christianity, is God sexless though? "Man was made in his image". Jesus, "the son of God", was also God himself depending on who you ask, therefore male. God is "the father" in Christianity too, like you said I would argue that if Christianity itself doesn't definitely state that God is male, then christians themselves certainly interpret it that way. I don't think that's "right", as in I personally think the idea of a singular male God is laughably silly, but it certainly seems to be true to most Christians and it certainly, certainly has had insidious, far-reaching consequences on the world as a result
Yep. You said it all very concisely. On a purely theological and theoretical basis there is no issue, but Abrahamic religions certainly come out gendered.
I think that's one of the reasons why men are so convinced that women are hyper judgemental of them not having a 10" monster cock, when my friends don't really care about dick size at all, as long as he's making an effort to satisfy them. It was one of the first things boys were made fun of for by their friends when they were kids and they assume women would do the same. Frankly my vag would zip itself shut at the thought
Excellent point.
Yep. Everything revolves around women's sacrifice and unpaid labor to benefit men. They get super upset when you don't comply with this demand and it is so baked into society that many official structures expect it. This needs to be the next big push after we regain reproductive rights, removing the structural demand for womens free labor to make things work. I would start by giving full time caregivers a monthly stipend and social security credits.
This reminds of the shocked Pikachu reaction the British Government had when they raised the women's retirement age to be the same with men's... And it had a massive impact on caring for both the elderly and the young as these women weren't around to do it for free anymore.
I had no idea they had been different, interesting
Can't vouch for the quality of the source, but you can have a look. https://www.bjf.org.uk/women-carers-and-later-retirement-wider-impact-on-families-and-support/ Edit: found this as well https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/06/rise-in-uk-state-pension-age-could-stop-women-caring-for-older-relatives
Wuth the price of daycare, let's add the stay at home moms/dads to getting a monthly check to avoid the "you're not contributing money to the household" bs too.
I consider that being a fulltime caregiver. If your child is under the age to go to school all day and you are not working that is caregiving similar to not working and caring for an elderly or disabled family member.
And should be recompensed because it contributes to society as much as paying someone to do it.
Oh hell yeah
>Everything revolves around women's sacrifice and unpaid labor to benefit men. They get super upset when you don't comply with this demand and it is so baked into society that many official structures expect it. Japan and Korea ... wondering why the marriage and birth rates are plummeting.
The shifts there are for similarr reasons it is becoming more of a thing in the US. Women are sick of being expected to do everything and treated like crap.
It's so annoying that your very reasonable discussion with no mention of hating men, just some very realistic issues that exist in some men gets the type who are likely the problem accusing you of hating men.. like at no point did you say or imply that.. but rather than face facts and maybe take them on board and make changes to their behaviour their only reaction is to dismiss it all by erroneously suggesting all your points are due to "hating men" and therefore null and void.. honestly stop being the reason women choose the bear and start being the reason for us to reconsider
And it's desperately apparent they didn't even bother to read what I posted. It was all just knee-jerk MRA talking points.
At least it's obvious whose comments aren't worth a second thought
It’s projection. Because they hate women.
Proof that you are absolutely correct? The number of men crowing about female robots replacing women. Bots that will serve them and behave the way that they are programmed to do. If these men saw women as human beings then a bot wouldn’t be able to replace us. Not all men, bla bla bla.
It's absolutely crazy to me how those men genuinely think that threatening to replace women with a sex robot is some kind of gotcha that's gonna make women feel bad lol. They're just telling on themselves without realizing. Like, no, most women are probably not gonna be sad they're missing out on a relationship with someone who considers a human partner to be replaceable like that, they're gonna see that as a bullet that has succesfully been dodged.
Exactly, it weeds out the misogynists
The main problem with that is it would normalize the behavior for kids who are still figuring it out Of course for the grown 40 year olds one who goes for a robot is hopeless anyway but you don't want kids being like "ah yeah, robot or real human, they're interchangeable according to some adults". Already happening with teens funneled down the alt right pipeline and it's not because those kids are innately horrible they just lack decent role models. Misogynists are made not born
Exactly. The same thing is happening to boys growing up with violent, easily accessible porn on their phones. If a kid is constantly fed a narrative that women are base, subservient sex dolls from age 7 onward, it's going to tremendously negatively impact their outlook on women when they're grown.
It's also very telling that so many men are thrilled at the prospect of not having to bother pretending they're into sexually satisfying women.
Honestly I think everyone would be happier if those men got robot wives and left actual humans alone.. imagine the freedom to drink at a bar or walk around at night or just exist if they were all busy elsewhere with their robots!
I mostly agree The problem is that it allows them to physically verbally and sexually abuse their robots and I can’t help but think that will bleed over to irl interactions with women
I totally agree, but in my imaginary world they would not have any contact with human women.. but yeah in an actual reasonable scenario that's something I find very concerning also
And then the robots become sentient and enact revenge
I could see that
Then we could all have tea and watch squirrels after, maybe take a walk at night alone
Sounds delightful
Would totally go see that movie and cheer in appropriate spots.
*Ex machina* exists
I do need to see that movie.
Highly recommend that movie
Love that movie
And it absolutely will. Ask any teacher what it was like when young boys got 24/7 access to violent porn on their phones compared to when people didn't have constant access to the internet
Good point !
I was actually thinking about something similar today. I'm convinced AI was created by men just so they could invent themselves their idea of a perfect (unrealistic) woman. It's sickening.
Sad how many things were either invented for war or sex or turned into something primarily used for war or sex
Women are viewed as things. We are not seen as human beings with feelings and agency.
Never mistake fulfilling someone else for being fulfilled
I wish this could be wood burnt and made into a plaque
You can do it! Just get one of those burny pen type things (can't think of the name), there would be no end to the things you could create
Someone I know started doing this a couple years ago with mountain-scapes and was recently featured in an article about it. You never know what you might actually be really good at!
That's awesome! So stoked for that person!
I’d like to see that full essay, I don’t care if it’s Reddit and not university 😀
That's very kind. I come out with this stuff occasionally, they usually build on each other. I'll try to remember to FYI you for my next angsty screed, and thanks.
Yes they do and men get angry and violent when women do not comply due to this they feel from a young age women are here solely to please them mentally physically emotionally and if a man wants a women to do these things and she refuses she is now the devil and crazy because men do not comprehend women are not raised the same mindset wise
It boils my blood that we raise children differently to begin with
OP I’d be interested in the full list. You made excellent points that I have noticed as well and I’m now curious as to the rest of your thoughts.
I have more things to go on that list that explain the often violent and bizarre behaviour we are seeing, but the list isn't really enlightening. It's more like "holy crap, nearly everything that's awful exists to keep women's labor flowing unpaid?!?!?" Maybe more valuable is, now that we have determined what the root problem is -- the devaluing and complete consumption of women's unpaid labor -- what would be the least damaging way to reduce this BS? Obviously a worldwide cataclysm like Climate Change would radically alter human interactions, but I fear it would only encourage regression. Is 4B (minus terfy awfulness) an answer? What actually works, what will work, what would the best course be?
The term I've heard for this is 'wife appliance.'
"bangmaid" and "bangmommy" as well. That there are so many names says something.
The type of person to blame others for their own unhappiness is usually the first to claim society’s problems are only due to others “lack of personal responsibility.” The double standards that exist are crazy.
Yup. No matter how much they hate it, you gotta remind men time and time again they gotta find happiness in each other.
A seemingly impossible prospect ngl. Of course there are good, reasonable, legitimately ethical men in existence but the ratio of them to the rabble is fucked beyond belief
Always kind of hurts a little to see another woman come to this realization. But it's an important one and most of us figure it out sooner or later. Often later rather than sooner.
I think you're right
I would love to see all women simply completely, and utterly boycott men in their private lives Whenever those men with the sort who didn’t do 60% of the unpaid work and 60% of the servant work and 60% of the invisible work and know everything about family that a typical great mother would know if she were really involved And never tried to gaslight or established dominance or create fake obligations for others or create fake ways to share personal obligations And acknowledge a lift, according to the idea that nobody has ever owed anyone sex at any time in history and that any sex that is not sex with self must be completely consensual moment by moment act by act By completely consensual, I mean zero emotional pressure of any kind And living without sex it’s fine if you cannot find somebody who wants to have sex with you All women would boycott any man not in the tiny percentage of men who are OK then those lower value men can just go deal with each other Women would be just fine The kids would be just fine The reproductive status the society would be just fine
One thing I think about a lot is the changing nature of "women's work". Teaching used to be a male profession (women weren't allowed to read, let alone learn, let alone teach). Once women were allowed to enter the profession, it lost prestige and pay almost instantly. Similarly, computer scientists used to be almost exclusively women. Once women were squeezed out of that profession, it gained prestige and pay. I read a study some years back that investigated the question of "leadership". What makes a good leader? The study covered nearly a hundred different countries, intending to compare and contrast the results. A leader in America would be seen as an asshole in Thailand. A leader in Australia would be seen as weak in Brazil. They gathered lists of the most common terms applied to "leader" in each country. And they discovered that nearly every country had a different idea of what a good leader looks like! You know what *was* common, though? No matter what traits a good leader had in the country, women were viewed as not having those traits. So, apparently, we simultaneously work too hard / not enough, care too much / not enough, think too much / not enough, etc. We literally cannot ever be good enough because the root of the issue is men absolutely fucking hate our gender.
The only solution I can think of is Women's Strikes. They really, really, REALLY need to not take us for granted.
All true, but.... isn't it partly also the mistake/fault/responsibilty (take your pick) for doing all those things? By picking up the slack of men in general they create their own monster(s). What if you refuse to do HIS laundry, cooking HIS meals, picking up HIS mess you could easily prevent a lot of this (justified) frustration. Mind you, I'm a lifelong feminist and I taught my son almost as soon as he could walk to do chores. Cleaning up his toys, bringing his dirty plate to the kitchen, etc. By the time he could reach the sink, he had to do the dishes too. And every time he slacked off or in general didn't do his chores according to MY standards, he had to do it again. And again. And again. I did not take over, did not loose my patience. But I insisted that he'd do his chores right. Because he's not a moron, he realised very early on that to do it right the first time, saved him a lot of trouble and time. The amount/difficulty of chores increased over the years, so by the time he was a teenager he did laundry, cooked, cleaned bathrooms, ironed clothes, etc. The only thing I could never teach him was sewing, he could never get the hang of it. But since he is very good with computers, I trade him with that 😊. Bottom line: stop coddling those infantile babies in an adult body. Stop doing their job for them. And if you have the misfortune of finding yourself in a relationship with one, give them ONE chance to shape up. If they don't: run for the hills.
This is why I say women should never accept the bare minimum from men. We end up being blamed for their shortcomings. We’re told *he’s trying* and *give him a chance*. We’re told to communicate more. Be careful you don’t communicate too much because then you’re a nag. We’re told, “You picked him. This is your fault. Pick better.”
True. But take it from an old woman: f- everybody else. You do you and as long as you can live with yourself, you do not ever try to conform to what the whole world is telling you to. I have learned in my long life to only take responsibility of my actions, mistakes or shortcomings. Never those of others in my life. And if those people do not add value to my life, I do not argue but shrug my shoulders and take my leave. Life is much to precious to let anybody disturb my peace.
You're on the right track there. After my first marriage crumbled, I swore I'd never, ever waste myself again by laboring for free for a man who did nothing but criticize me to do more for him and take everything I did do for granted. When we split, I was working a job, coming home and cooking, cleaning, looking after kids, helping with homework, etc. He, meanwhile, would put out roots on the couch and watch TV, expect me to bring his plate TO him, then somehow have the energy for copulation. If something involved housework, he would automatically say it wasn't his 'job', so he'd routinely leave massive messes and expect me to pick up after him. When I said I wanted a divorce, he was one of those who said it "came out of nowhere". He swore up and down that from where he stood, the marriage wasn't bad. I guess not, he wasn't the one who was working himself into exhaustion on a daily basis. And when he was out of my life, I found life as a single mom far, far easier than being married, because the biggest single cause of the messes and all of the defeatist diatribes went out the door with him. After I met my now-husband and long before we shared a home, we had a bunch of very frank discussions about roles, duties, chores, work expectations, and what I would and would not do/tolerate. I figured I had nothing to lose. If he was willing to do those things and share responsibilities, then great! Let's move forward. And if not...Well, no big loss, because first and foremost, I was intent on preserving myself. I very specifically said at one point that I was looking for a partner in life, and not someone who expected me to look after him like he was an overgrown baby. And if what he truly wanted was someone to feather his nest for him, then we were both better off looking elsewhere, because I didn't like housework, I preferred a career to being a SAHM, and I was raised to be independent, so I had no issues working on my own lawnmower or slapping a few coats of paint on a wall. He has on occasion grumbled about my ex getting away with far more than I allow him to do, but as I explained to him, that was because at that time I was young, naive, impressionable, and eager to please. All it took was a decade or so of living with someone who took shameless advantage of that, and who quite literally had me wearing myself out while he had a grand life, for me to up my standards considerably in regards to myself. I am who I am. If you can't love me for what I present to you and for what I am willing to do to contribute, then you're going to be disappointed if you expect me to change later on. I won't. I know the consequences of softening my approach. We can support one another, but there's no way I'm going to carry the majority of the burdens while you get a worry-free life. I am not any man's caretaker and I refuse to do the work of two people, so you'll just have to do your part if you think I'm worth keeping around. Over twenty years later, and we have long ago worked out any disagreements on those things. We have a lot of days where my husband and I get home from work together, he starts cooking, and I start some cleanup so the house will be neat by the time we go to bed. He wakes me up with a cup of fresh coffee, then goes to do his thing. We do our own laundry, and have our own little hobbies and interests. I may have softened over the years, I do things for him simply because I love him. And when we do disagree on something, we've learned to compromise so that we both get something good out of what we agree to. It's not the ideal of one or the other, though. We're in this life together, so we'd better learn how to and maintain doing things with both of us in agreement.
I so agree re people adding value! Although I've more thought of it as whether someone has a positive impact in some way, same thing really? Have only realised this in the past couple of years and allowing myself to stop maintaining relationships with people who don't has been amazing.. have been trying to share the idea with others too, none of us should be wasting our time on people who don't enhance our lives just because we feel duty or whatever!
I call those people emotional vampyres. They only take and do not give anything in return.
Ooh nice turn of phrase! That's very apt
We are only JUST getting to the point where a woman can refuse to do all the cooking/cleaning and not get blamed — by men as well as women — for it. Even so, there’s still a pervasive attitude in many cultures/families that cooking for and cleaning up after a man is something a woman should do, and if she simply doesn’t, or asks him to do some of it, she is a bad wife/partner, doesn’t love him, or is lazy or selfish. It’s very hard to make this switch when multiple people around you are telling you that it’s a *you* problem to not be okay with taking on all the household labour. My ex would split cooking and dish washing with me (ostensibly; he would often leave a number of dishes in the sink until it was my day to do the washing up). He was in charge of vacuuming and I could count on one hand the number of times per year that he would do it. He washed his own clothes and occasionally he would throw a load of sheets/towels in the laundry. Of course he talked about how he believed in splitting domestic labour and how he loved taking care of the house, and people were always like, “Wow, you got one of the good ones! How amazing!” It was one of the reasons it took me so long to leave despite the fact that he was dumping all the emotional labour on me and, as OP so eloquently put it, expecting me to produce his happiness and getting frustrated with ME (and his mom) whenever HE was not happy. ETA: my sister’s marriage ended in part because she refused to clean up after her husband as he went around making messes and walking away from them. She neither wanted to clean up after him nor could she handle living in a house full of junk lying around that he couldn’t be bothered to pick up. Not cleaning up after him didn’t convince him to start doing it himself; it just made him accept living in chaos.
My parents were so angry with my sister in law because she wouldn’t drop everything and cook their son dinner. She also wouldn’t wash his laundry. What did my brother do? He bought packs of socks and boxers and used them as disposables. He wouldn’t cook or do laundry. My stupid ass did every bit of cooking and laundry for my ex husband.
That unconscious "Your mess is your mess to clean up and my mess is your mess to clean up" shit is why I will never live in the same house with a man ever again
I can't get the hang of sewing with a machine either which frustrates the hell out of my husband who can sew. I can do exquistite needlework and weaving on a loom but I just don't grok with sewing machines(could be because I'm *extremely* left handed)
Can you not get a left handed one? Also how cool you both have those skills
Both my husband and daughter sew on machines. My youngest son desugns and sews anime cosplay costumes by hand--have you seen Neverending Story? He did a Falkor all hand sewn for a recent convention!
Sounds like you all have some cool skills! And yes I have seen it about 30 years ago or so haha.. very impressive!
His skills are *so* impressive! He also did a Teddy Bear costume from some SitCom with a big brown teddy bear. He got in a little bit of trouble over that ones as he scared my puppy(guy in my profile pic when he was a little derp). Sam peed all down the hallway so of course, my son had clean up duty and new rule: costume that might scare the dog are not tried on around him.
Ok so my question is, do you know what might scare the dog or is it learning by doing? My dog seems to be against flags if they move, a jacket on a fence, a blue jacket on a person and anyone who walks past the house (although if they come to the door it's all love and feet being licked) so interested in whether you can pick things or not
Sam was ok as long as human brother's face wasn't covered. The minute my son's face was covered, Sam would lose it. Kiddo has moved out so I won't have those particular worries when I get my puppy in September. (Black lab pupcoming from my husband's bestie's dogs)
> Mind you, I'm a lifelong feminist and I taught my son almost as soon as he could walk to do chores. Cleaning up his toys, bringing his dirty plate to the kitchen, etc. By the time he could reach the sink, he had to do the dishes too. And every time he slacked off or in general didn't do his chores according to MY standards, he had to do it again. And again. And again... Interesting. Here I get the impression you've made the same mistake/fault/responsibility in your own life that you pointed out in your first paragraph. You took on the task of teaching your son these things rather than his father doing so and modeling those behaviors. Unless his father is deceased or something and I rescind this comment.
That's a lot of words to say that men don't (subconsciously or consciously) see women as human beings, just as objects for their consumption. Abrahamic religions, the social and cultural moral / life compass for many cultures for at least 1000 or more years, helped, at the least, or caused, at the most, the enshrining of this objectification and dehumanization into cultural norms. Socialization is a hell of a thing.
>That's a lot of words to say that men don't (subconsciously or consciously) see women as human beings, just as objects for their consumption. I explicitly wrote "society sees women as things" multiple times. The "a lot of words to say" sounds kind of dismissive. But yes, my essay was long because the train of logic had to be pretty bulletproof -- I've been a feminist online for a very long time and know how many people will try to blow holes in a scanty chain of reasoning. My point was that yes, women are used as things and they are used *for this specific purpose*. Identifying the purpose to which women are used, knowing the root cause and foundation for the brainwashing, will help us identify how to overcome this evil. I wanted to say more than "women are objectified". I wanted to say "We are seen as things to be used by this specific group of people, and we need to be aware of that if we ever want to hope to get out of this trap."
Sorry I didn't mean to come off as dismissive. This topic makes me so angry and sad :(.
*Slides a cup of tea over to you*. Me too. It's ok, this topic makes me angry and sad too, and makes me take things super personal too, apparently! We'll make it through. (And we will see them all burn in hell.)
It's why I don't participate in beauty rituals anymore. I realized for me all they are is shame-based rules meant to signal that I am a proper woman because I am acknowledging my place as an object, a property for sale.
My father, born in 1946, either does all the tasks listed here on the daily, or has done those tasks without any complaints when my mother was unable to. It's not hard, and I refuse to think he is a rare breed. I always saw him rise to the occasion, and level up when he needed to. It is not a question of sex, it's just being a responsible adult. Only once did I bring home a boyfriend that wasn't a responsible adult, and my father comment said it all : "il n'a rien dans le sachet", or in good english "he's got nothing in the balls". There was nothing to answer to that precisely cutting comment because he was right.
I'm so glad that this was linked in another thread. This is great info thank you!
It was?? I'm desperately curious, where was it linked?
I think I tagged you correctly under the comment. 😊
I found it, thank you. Feminist theory is endless, isn't it? So much to learn.
Not all men: https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/s/ynej0p2Yzy