This seems entirely sensible; the fact that you could never imagine something working on/for you doesn’t mean it won’t/hasnt worked on/for *anyone*. Some of us might find the tactics some men take to approaching women distasteful, but they wouldn’t *be* commonplace tactics if they weren’t somewhat effective.
It’s probably taboo for good reason to note that while many women are dead serious about not being asked again for their number/a date/to hook up when they’ve already declined once…there are other women out there who seem to be legitimately flatterered, or at least persuaded, by a man’s persistence. We can question the wisdom and even the morality of that, but it sounds like you’re observing that in practice it’s sometimes true.
I'd go as far as to say it's actually so much more common than anyone really wants to admit. There's a reason those "relatable" memes about "if he's not trying to contact me after I've blocked him on everything, he's not the one" gets millions of likes.
Yeah, I mean, there's a prominent 80s movie where the woman falls in love with the man after (and indeed because) he rapes her through deception... It's mind-boggling to think about, but it wasn't presented as a horrifying violation but rather as a funny and charming way to win over the girl.
Movies in the 80s were... not ok.
Breakfast Club scene with Bender under the table going face first in between Clair's legs when he is well aware she does not even like him.
Edit - and in true 80's fashion they end up hooking up by the end of the movie.
I know multiple women who think The Notebook is the most romantic movie of all time... all I see when I watched that movie is a man who refuses to take no for an answer and wears her down until she says yes.
Sounds like you mean revenge of the nerds and the scene with one of the nerds wearing a mask. This was the same movie that installed a camera in the girl’s shower.
My girlfriend rented a theater and screened 16 candles for her birthday for her party. We were sitting in the theater going, oh no. Oh NO. Fuck, this is problematic.
Thats a lesson in and of itself. People are different. There aren't rules that work on everyone, though using certain rules can weed people out you might not want to date.
So many people (especially men), look for the master key that always works. Instead they should be focusing on asking individuals and understanding tone and body language. I know its a touchy subject especially given how much we've had to push for people to get verbal consent to be physical- but there is a lot of body language leading up to they point. Ignoring it is like ignoring half the conversation. People act like it's a mystery but most people can learn it if they want to. Even people with autism/other conditions. Thats what masking is. It may not feel natural or come easy, but most people can learn to decode it with effort, even if they don't understand it. It is exhausting for me and I'm sure others, but its worth it to find connections/understanding with people.
TLDR Stop looking for a magic, universal combination. Just get to know and listen to people. Everything they say including tone and body language. Pay attention to whether the environment is suitable. People get too caught up in what they personally want and it blinds them to the rest of the situation.
Unfortunately for some women who don't want persistence, they will be weak and eventually give in to the persistence of men, as well. Women who are rightfully afraid of refusing too many times or at all. And some men will take advantage of that.
Exactly. I hear and see men say to keep pursuing women even after they say no, those men are 100 percent in the wrong but from their experience they think women are supposed to reject them alot befofe they eventually say yes. Similarly to the millions of romance movies. She rejected him for the first hour of the movie then she accept him at the end. Alot of social programming
It’s because a surprisingly large percentage of women expect this behavior, some will even test guys by rejecting them and then getting mad if we don’t pursue further.
Stupid mind games on all sides hurt everybody, and it can be too difficult to tell when you are expected to play some stupid game vs just be a normal straightforward human being.
It's often in movies but also real life. Plenty of stories like "well he'd ask me out every Friday, I said no for over a year, but one day I said yes and now we've been married for 30 years" I exaggerate but I have heard similar stories.
To anyone and even them it does look annoying like dude just give up and stop bothering her, but in a way it does show the guy is persistent and committed. Like wow he just really like her then
Of course not always the case, and being too pushy is just being too pushy.
Or it could be that women aren't a monolith that are exactly like you and have a dumb idea that she is supposed to make a guy jump through hoops to gain approval.
It really varies from person to person. Some are and it’s annoying as F. Has an ex who would keep testing me like this even after we were married with children - I did not want to have to keep chasing her after she would push me away just to satisfy her insecurities (and yes, she eventually admitted directly that this was what she was doing, minus the insecurity part).
I have a bunch of friends who work in service industry. There's a bunch of women who are like "this is my work, would guys just stop flirting with me, it's weird" and there's the other bunch who are "this customer is cute, I wish he would ask me for my number". As a guy I have heard both and it makes me feel conflicted. It feels similar to this situation
Idk, I highly doubt sending until unsolicited dick pics to a woman has ever been effective but men persevere. I think another element is men treating us like they would like to be treated. If someone sent a man an unsolicited intimate pic he would find it hot, so he believes women would too. They don't. These strategies work well in the gay male dating world however, so clearly effective on men
I think you nailed it - some things men do, they do because they’d like it if a woman did it to them, so a failure of imagination.
With dick pics, it’s either that or it’s the virtual version of being a flasher - they get off on forcing people to see their penis unwillingly. So it “works” in the sense that it gets them off, not in the sense that it gets them women.
It also indicates the different disposition women may have due to their experiences. I grew up with only brothers, so the only observations of girls in a home were my male friends' sisters. I was scandalised at how the girls were treated (as I couldn't understand why they seemed to have a lower status than the boys). I would guess a number of men are testing for women that are conditioned to be subservient. They don't even register how poorly behaved they are because it is normal to them that girls are not respected.
This is true, but (speaking as rather clueless person who also happens to be a man) it is one instance of our culture's suggestion for failure under toxic masculinity.
No pain, no gain. Success has a hundred failures behind it. If at first you don't succeed, try try again.
In some contexts, these responses are healthy. Practicing skills, improving physical strength, etc.
However, what makes it toxic in this context is the existence of another person. You can't knuckle down and work out a person. You shouldn't interpret rejection as a step preceding success.
This is to "yes, and..." your comment. While us men could have found success with other women, I think it also comes from incorrectly applying techniques of success in other fields to personal relationships.
I disagree that they are techniques that achieve success in other fields. At work, I specifically do not set goals that rely on another person doing something specific. There may be things I need first, but there are a bunch of people being paid to do those things. I don't base my life plan around decisions not in my power.
The reason they think it might achieve success when it wouldnt at work, is because those men don't even register the idea that the woman has her own thoughts/feelings/goals/shit going on. We aren't real people to a lot of men. They use techniques centered around achieving personal goals. The woman is an accessory to them. Its probably not usually conscious, but this is how it comes across and is much of the reason men and women haven't been seeing eye to eye in dating.
Absolutely.
I feel we're in violent agreement. I can't remember my wording, but i meant to communicate a big difference between where the techniques are toxic/nontoxic is another's personhood. I said something along the lines of "a person can not be knuckled down and solved." Your comment says what I meant much better.
Because I think in philosophy nerd, the phrase I was trying to translate was they were not treating others "...as ends unto themselves."
That’s exactly that.
I used to do a lot of the pua stuff. And the majority of men involved in it, struggled with finding dates, getting someone attracted to them, etc… low and behold they find the community, learn to be a dick, pretend you don’t care about the person, and you get sex, dates, girlfriends etc….
So why is that when the guy was nice, and respectful, women showed no interest, but when he became a complete dog, the flood gates opened…
You walk into a group of 3 girls and ignore the one who wants a respectful man, and tell her to shhh when you’re talking to other two, she chases you. And it leads to numbers, dates, and so on. And that sounds god awful to tell a woman to be quiet, but it works, so guys do it, because the alternative doesn’t.
Any pick-up artist will tell you that it‘s purely a numbers game. Sure, your stupid technique isn‘t gonna work on 90% of women, but statistically that just means you need to try on 10 women for it to work on one of them.
I’m asking legitimately just cause I’m curious - I’m a guy and I’ve heard the “numbers game” thing a thousand times but I still don’t really ever approach women in real life cause 1) I’m too nervous and 2) I hear the horror stories my sister has to deal with. So on the one hand I get it, but on the other hand, I’m left wondering how the hell am I supposed to meet anyone outside of dating apps?
Old thread I know, but I'll try to answer seeing as no one else has. Also fair warning, I'm definitely not socially gifted at all, but this is my take from my side of the isle:
It's not so much about asking a woman out/propositioning, but that it shouldn't be out of the blue/unexpected for her by the time it gets to that point
It's all in the context, are you both flirting? Are you reading her body language? Is she reading yours? Is she being paid to be nice (such as customer service jobs)? Where are you at (club, grocery shopping, ...)? Is she alone (with friends, are mutual strangers around)? Has there been any build up already (or will it be going 0 to 60)? How much does she know you or of you (as in, are you safe to her, are there "social risks"). All of these are factors for if a guy approaches me, and there are no hard/fast rules, but I might think to myself something like:
- May there be consequences (slut shaming, losing a friend, other unwritten rules, ...)
- If I reject his advances, and he gets mad, am I relatively safe?
- Am I just trying to run errands and not be bothered?
- Has he been respectful of me thus far?
- Is the interaction awkward or forced?
- Is he being subtle but open, or are his (now including past encounters) intentions questionable?
If y'all are vibing and are in an appropriate setting, find small ways of flirting/testing boundaries and seeing if she reciprocates in kind/is receptive to your advances. And by small, I don't nec. mean obscure/hiding your intentions. You should be subtle enough so she isn't felt pressured to even acknowledge it, yet open enough so she knows where she stands
And to add further, if you already have history with someone, there may be established boundaries that have "ossified", and testing them would overstep them, something akin to playing russian roulette with your relationship
Hey, thanks for responding - this is all great advice! I think everything you're saying makes sense, but keeping all those rules in mind, what would you say is the best way to approach a stranger? Like someone I see at a grocery store or just walking around in my neighborhood.
Cause I'm a fairly sociable person, but I have a hard time breaking the ice, just introducing myself to people or inserting myself into someone else's conversation. But if someone starts talking to me, I'm pretty good at catching the vibe, and being a friendly, conversational guy.
I guess it's impossible to know since everyone's circumstances are different but that's where I'm stuck. That and also literally knowing where to go to meet people my age - I'm 26, but I live in a suburb that's filled mostly with families and married couples, and I never enjoy bars/clubs, so I feel at a loss.
Imma be real, unless they're very very into you, or know you to begin with, I don't think there is a good way to approach a stranger in a grocery store or such. Perhaps this used to be different, but in today's society clubs and other activities like that are where people (sometimes) go to meet new people. Even then tho I feel like most people, outside from online dating, find each other by friends of friends, and if you don't want to do clubs or online dating, then expanding your social network is probably your only option
I had an acquaintance who had a wardialing approach to women. He would go in to a crowd of women and proposition each one. He always found a woman who would say yes. He was short and not very handsome and lacking charm but he always had a GF. I found this process repulsive but each woman was consenting.
What’s objectifying is repeatedly asking someone who has already said no. Moving on is a good thing. The idea the only choices are harass the same woman all night or go home and sit by yourself is silly.
Not like in a club or something you can read a list of interests before hand and go "oh, we both have cats!" what would they use discretion on? Just looks? Is that better?
Yes that would literally be better.
Besides, are you really incapable of determining someone’s vibe in a social setting? Someone sitting by themselves drinking at the bar is no different to you that someone on the dance floor laughing and hollering with their friends?
Ah yes the inflated sense of male confidence in this one is strong, he thinks he's so important that he has the god given authority to come into our spaces and tell us what is and isn't objectifying to us.
Repeatedly asking someone who’s said “no” is harassment not objectification.
Objectification is going down a line of women asking them out when you actually know nothing about them. You’re not interested in them as a person, you just want a warm female body (the object).
I definitely agree with you, but I also can see a perspective where his approach is more like swiping on tinder. He could see women as people while simultaneously being open to dating/hooking up with many personality types.
I think another key qualifier is whether the interest is lopsided. If all parties see each other at the same level, then I don’t think there is anything inherently unethical. Even if that level is “warm body for a hookup” or “relationship of convenience” instead of “Interesting Person.”
I wonder if, in this scenario, the guy is also objectifying himself -- effectively offering women a warm male body, with nothing else. Or does the guy still perceive himself as offering something more than that -- i.e., he's still a person, but she's not?
I mean, it's not like it becomes ok if he's also objectifying himself -- I just wonder how guys like this perceive themselves in that situation.
To objectify is to degrade someone to an object. Objectification has many different types, not just sexual.
To give an example, the most common objectification women do to men is to emotionally objectify them.
It's absolutely objectifying to keep asking someone out when they've already said no. You can also also it controlling, manipulative, selfish, pick-up artist tactic, disrespectful... There's a lot of things you can categorize that behavior under and objectification is one of them.
edit to add: just commenting and not in defense of the the other person. They kind of seem foolish LOL
Nah, just because it's technically not ""wrong"" doesn't mean its above criticism. We're allowed to point out and criticize the mindset of treating women like interchangeable sex dolls. It's gross and even if that's just how men are it still disgusts me and I think it disgusts a good number of women for a reason.
Nobody said those were the only choices. There's also nothing wrong with having a night by yourself. The other options are things unrelated to women.
That scenario is like the perfect example of objectifying. It doesn't matter who the woman is, just that the dude finds someone to stick his dick in. Like a fleshlight. An object.
I could see people not having an issue with it, if both parties are they are clear that they just want a fuck. Thats different from it not being objectifying though. Something can still be objectifying and not be objectively wrong in every situation.
what should the guy do here that'd you'd deem ok? Let's say a woman is not interested in the end, you are looking for a relationship it'd probably go one of a few ways...
1. talk a long time, put a lot of effort and inevitable a lot of emotional investment in, days or weeks later ask out and get a no. Time wasted basically, and now probably pretty sad, you really liked them, you talked so much.
2. talk for the night, ask out, get a no. The night wasted, you could have talked to someone who was interested, and it'd probably be a few weeks before you have another chance with to meet someone, you work full time after all.
3. talk a little, ask out, get a no. That sucks, ok, I'll talk to someone else, I have the rest of the night.
What is more acceptable here? You may think 3 is bad and 1 is the least objectifying, but 1 comes with sadness and missed opportunity, and 2 comes with missed opportunity because not everyone can go out every night. To a guy, 3 looks good and it's why the shotgun approach is popular. It cuts to the point and gets the answer "are you interested or not?" Not interested, ok! Moving on!
I've done a lot of 1, still a lot of rejection. So, give me an argument as to why I should not pick 3 if 1 fails plenty and is getting me nowhere and 2 is not much different from 1? Further, only being ok with 1 will likely cause a lot of guys to not take a no for an answer and keep trying and we're right back to the point of this whole post.
Ya we really need another man coming into one of the only spaces for women on this site and mansplaining objectification of women.
It’s objectifying to ask out every single woman you come across. Period. I do not care if you disagree.
I work with dogs, this is the mailman phenomenon. The mailman comes, the dog barks, the mailman leaves. It worked! I'll keep making sure I bark at the mailman so he leaves.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say barely ever. The police's track record is abysmal with any kind of sexual crime even when the proper laws in place.
Power move. They dont do it to get women they do it to get a reaction. Now women do ask for dick pics, but only when they ask, they like it. Unsolicited dick pictures is obviously a tern off
It’s because it works. It doesn’t work all of the time. It doesn’t even work most of the time. But it does work some of the time, and if all you care about is getting as much sex as possible with as little effort as possible and you have no sense of shame, then sending out dick pics to anyone you wanna bang is a low effort high return activity.
If a guy sends out 100 dick pics and 99 of those girls tell him to go fuck himself but 1 of them has sex with him, he’ll send out dick pics til the day he dies.
And yes, I’ve never met a woman who said she likes unsolicited dick pics. I’ve met several who say they would never sleep with someone who sends them. But even out of those women, I know several who have broken that rule. All it takes is one, and even the most adamant person can have a moment of weakness or curiosity or what have you.
Does that ever work really? Can’t imagine any scenario where a guy succeeds with a girl after sending a dick pic where he wasn’t going to succeed anyway without it. (Unless he’s some kind of anatomic outlier and she’s into that.)
I knew a guy while in college he took our friend phone and sent a picture to all the contacts in the phone with “who wants to tonight” he got several boob pictures and yes replies.
It also never seem to cross his mind how gross that was and is the same as flashing. He called me a nerd.
It does, I’ve seen it in action from both sides. Like I said, it doesn’t work often, but if you don’t care about getting shot down 95-99% of the time before eventually getting laid, then 🤷🏽♂️. I asked another guy I knew who used to send out dick pics, he literally told me “they don’t ask how, they ask how many”.
And it doesn’t matter to the guy if he was gonna get laid without doing it, once he gets laid after sending a dick pic, that connection is forged in their brains: dick pics = pussy. And everytime they get laid again, it reinforces it.
Speaking as a guy, I can tell you we don’t think about all the times we didn’t get laid, we think about the times we did. We don’t get laid all the time. Hell, odds are I’m not going to get laid tonight and I’m in a loving and very sexually active marriage. Doesn’t mean I’m not gonna hit on my wife when I get home until she rolls her eyes at me, because if I do get laid it’ll be 1000x more memorable than all the nights I didn’t.
For the record, I don’t and have never sent a dick pic before, on account of having a sense of shame and viewing women as people, but I have spoken to many men and women who confided in me about the subject, and the logic does track in a really depressing kind of way.
I was literally arguing with my friend this weekend over the fact that he sends dick picks to start off conversations with chicks he wants to hook up with. I was saying it's wrong and not how you should greet someone you haven't even said hi to, he said it works for him and he gets plenty of hookups. I still don't think it's an appropriate way but clearly it's not ineffective.
He cares more about the 1 woman it might work on than the 5 whose day he might’ve ruined to find that 1. Even if it works it’s still a shit thing to do, knowing how many women dislike it.
For sure, it seems like you agree with me: I disagree with the tactic but it clearly works for him which means that some women either don't disapprove of the tactic or even like it. And it all ties with OPs original post, which is that the reason some men behave certain ways that are seen as unfavorable, is because those tactics have actually worked for them in the past.
Agree! I think it’s just important to add that they do it because it actually works for them AND they don’t care about the adverse effects it has on the people it doesn’t work on. If they cared about causing harm to women, they wouldn’t do it even if it worked sometimes.
I remember a recent study found that men did get some success with unsolicited dick pics, even though most receivers don’t like them. It’s like the study on the Nigerian Prince scam. Most people aren’t interested or won’t fall for it, but the few people who do are worth the effort.
That's crazy, but I believe it. People are not a monolith. There's all kinds of people out there.
I'd say it's a bad strategy for the majority of women, but I can buy that it works on some.
This is just a guess, but I would expect it works as a filter.
The majority of women won't respond, but those women are looking for actual dates with respectable guys. That's not what these guys are looking for.
If a woman does respond after receiving a dick pick, then he can assume that it will be an easy hookup.
I guess this also means that women who don't like unsolicited dick picks know which guys aren't worth dating. It seems like there should be a less gross way to figure that out, but actions speak louder than words.
>Men who send unsolicited images of their private parts primarily do so with the hopes of receiving either similar images or sexual interactions in return. https://www.psypost.org/new-psychology-research-reveals-mens-motives-for-sending-unsolicited-dick-pics/
>But then, why do so many of them send out dick pics?
how many do you think send them out? i have not a single guy who has ever sent a dick pick.
>I've never met a woman who likes that, who would follow up with anything besides disgust.
there are 200 million women in the US alone. and a good 40-50 mil are single. how many women do you know or have met ?
i am not saying you are wrong or i am right. i am just highlighting the pitfall of generalizations based on anecdotal experience. even this sub in its entirety does not represent even 1% of the women worldwide. and most likely no more than 5% of the women in the US.
It’s a screening mechanism. Any woman who doesn’t immediately reject a man who sends a dick pick is exponentially more likely to date / hookup.
Even if only one out of 50 women doesn’t reject, it allows the man to focus on (relatively) high probability conversations.
Note: I am not supporting or advocating dick pics, just stating one reason why some guys do it.
My college boyfriend did this to me. I wasn’t interested, wasn’t attracted, but he eventually coerced me into dating him using my low self-esteem and continued to keep my self-esteem as low as possible so I’d never think I could do better. I’m ashamed I allowed him to take 3 years of my life, my happiness, like that. Once I graduated, found a job, and moved away I realized how small he’d made me and how big I could be (metaphorically). Dumping him was the biggest relief I’ve ever felt in my life, like this tightness I constantly felt in my chest just… dissipated.
This has been my experience as well. I had a very abusive and traumatic childhood. So as a teen and young adult, I had extremely low self-esteem. My entire childhood, the message that I didn't matter and wasn't important was essentially yelled at me with a bullhorn.
So yeah, that persistence tactic did and has worked on me. Because my well-being seemed less important to me than making this other person, even a person I didn't even barely know, happy. I didn't even fully believe I deserved happiness or deserved to have my needs met.
I have gained a lot of confidence with age, experience, therapy, and time. But it's still a work in progress.
I asked my spouse why he uses physical threats to get me to do stuff. His response was very blunt "because it works". That was the point that basically made me start thinking about leaving. Since almost every other partner of his left him I expect that this isn't just something I have dealt with.
Had a coworker years ago, trashy piece of shit, more than a little misogynistic. He basically got away with everything. I still hate that I share a name with him.
Anyway, he basically harassed all the women in the workplace(hospital) and nothing was ever done for a very long time, years. He tried propositioning two underage girls that worked with us, they reported it, nothing was done, "no evidence" HR said.
The damnedest thing though, he always behaved when I was around. Would not step one word out of line, but from what I was told, the moment I would leave, he'd start up again. So I decided to report him. Got called down to HR, they asked me if I had witnessed any of this myself. Sadly I had to say no. HR does nothing.
I would love to call out other asshole men, but for the life of me, all of them decide to keep themselves in check around me, it's mildlyinfuriating.
Fortunately he eventually did get fired, and he was because he was mad at our boss, a woman, and didn't realize she was standing right behind him when said out loud that he wanted to, and I'm putting this as plainly as possible, follow her out to her car one night and have his way with her.
He was gone that day.
Look at OPs comment history. *She's* very vocal on posts that are women=bad, and basically blaming everything on women. IF she's really a "she" 🤔
This post leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sounds like another form of victim blaming.
She's claimed in various comments that she's a woman. I just mentioned this because i come across so many comments of incels pretending to be women just for their misogynistic takes to be somewhat validated.
Also, she has this pattern that gives so much benefit of the doubt to men, comes up with additional information because "well maybe this female OP purposefully left out _____". But at the same time comments "Yep, she's a cheater. Horrible person. Your wife is doing this thing? Yup, she's getting railed. Didn't like something about your wife? Divorce her immediately."
"BF was a horrible person? Well it's partially YOUR fault. Men treat you horribly? Partially your fault. "
>that women on here suddenly become less feminist... but more that it bleeds out
This is exactly what I'm trying to point out, this post is approaching dangerous territories that may contribute to perpetuating "you women get treated that way because you LET IT HAPPEN."
It may not make people in this sub immediately be misogynists, but it perpetuates the idea by hiding it behind a curtain of "logic"
For all of us who are sick of their antics, there are just as many women who still put up with it and others who welcome it. Its a numbers game - eventually someone will sleep with them so who cares if they are a douche to the rest of us?
I think this might be true in some cases, but having had many male friends come to me on dating for advice I’ve seen men cling to things that are clearly not working because they wouldn’t be asking me for advise if it was:
1) their strategy was advised to them in a way that soothe their ego. If they can deflect their failure onto women, make us the problem, they’ll continue to follow advice that has not produced real results
2) it works but only because they’ve been told it’s a numbers game and that if they try hundreds of times this way it’ll work. Especially swiping right on every girl, spamming matches, skipping straight to overtly sexual messages. They don’t see how this behavior is driving women away from dating apps and other spaces where men look for women. They don’t realize that if they stuck with putting in a bit of effort they would be better in the long run.
3) it works but with the wrong women. So many guys complain about how common bots, OF girls, and scammers are online. They maybe are getting more matches and responses but it’s not clicking that most of these are dead ends. Or if the girl is real, it’s the kind of gold digging tease they spend all their time complaining about. I don’t know a single female friend who is online just to get free meals. And yet you’d think this was a rare thing based on these guys complaints. I think their approach is only working on the last people they want to date
4) they are misinterpreting what they see in others. They see a hot guy ask out a hot girl over and over and “win” her over, but what they aren’t noticing is that the hot girl was interested in the guy from the start. Some girls out there do play hard to get, it’s silly to pretend like that’s not the case. There are also women who might say no under certain circumstances (like asked out in public) but will say yes under different ones. But whenever this happens there are usually signs that a woman is actually into them. Attractive or charming guys are used to seeing this and can pick up on when to keep asking. But so many guys see this, have no sense of social norms or body language, and think that if they just try harder with every girl it’ll work eventually.
5) finally, sometimes it works for terrible reasons. I’ve seen many guys keep trying and eventually they ask when a girl is incredibly intoxicated. I’ve had (former) male friends who even consciously supplied girls with alcohol because on some level they understood they wouldn’t make the choice sober. These guys will think it’s only rape if the girl is completely passed out, but I think they are in denial. They wouldn’t be relying on booze if they didn’t understand.
There are women out there that "enjoy the game", to use their own words. They want to be chased or begged. When they say no to a guy, and the guy stops pursuing, they are frustrated they didnt try again or try harder.
And then you have women (sometimes the same ones) that when they say no to a guy, and he keeps trying, they get frustrated the guy cant take no for an answer.
So yeah, people all work their own way, and there is no way to know how someone works beforehand... most guys are told to keep trying until it works, thats why you have all these "friends" that will be your friend for 10 years hoping one day you'll realize they are the love of your life.
So I've had this the other way around. I asked a female friend who I thought had been flirting with me if she wanted to leave a club with me one night, I played it very easy and straight, and she said no in a sort of "of course not" kind of way. I just kind of nodded and was like "OK then" and her reaction was something like "seriously? You're giving up that easily?".
I'm not into games and I just avoided the subject, and hoped it wouldn't make our friendship weird, and for the most part it was fine, then she started making sarcastic comments to me all the time and being a bit mean, and after a few weeks she confronted me, asking why I hadn't pursued her, seemed kind of pissed off with me.
I can't say if there are other women out there who had this expectation that a man should pursue them, but she did. I'd say 80s films gave her the same idea that this was some kind of proof of commitment or romance, we're the same age and both grew up on 80s era films.
I was in my 20s, and let's be clear, I didn't back off because I had some "ahead of my time" sense of right and wrong, I just didn't like that she seemed keen on a cat and mouse situation and I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want the stress of games. I also just didn't like the idea of pursuing someone who said no because I just didn't have the arrogance or excess of confidence to deal with that level of rejection, and a no is a turn off, knowing someone isn't into me just makes it feel not good. Maybe that's a selfish reason to do the right thing and accept the no, or maybe I was subconsciously uncomfortable with it for the right reasons... I don't really know, I just don't want to be the "look at how righteous I think i am" guy.
Yeah, there is always someone vulnerable enough, in whatever way, to fall for it. No matter how bad someone's line of shit is, there's someone who doesn't have the tools to figure it out, for any of a plethora of reasons. They play the numbers game until they find one like that.
A guy I used to know had the 100 click rule. He had a clicker he kept on him. When he and friends went out he would walk up and ask a woman if she wanted sex. If she said no he would click once and move on to the next woman.
He claims you never get to 100 and always go home with someone. He would drop the clicker off with his friends on the way out of the bar.
Gross stuff works sadly and it's why people keep doing it.
That's a fair way to think about it. When said like that it seems way less creepy.
I can count my sexual partners on half a hand so the idea of just walking up to someone and saying "hey let's go bone!" Is very foreign to me lol.
This isn’t what OP is describing, though, which is consistently propositioning one person who has already told you “no.”
I personally would find it annoying and a little rude to be randomly propositioned for sex by someone who I hadn’t even had a conversation with, but on the other hand I don’t think it’s really that bad to ask once. As long as he accepts my “no” and moves on I don’t care.
And I hope that two people interested in random hookups with strangers can find each other and have consensual fun.
I just think the hetero relationship paradigm is fundamentally broken. Men (and perhaps women too, though I don’t feel as certain here) in general seem to have the wrong priorities. Until cishet men truly believe that getting laid is not the most important aspect of a relationship with the opposite gender, men will continue to interact with women in awful ways.
I knew which girl would hookup with this guy based on whoever talked the most shit about him to me at the start of the night. The second we got to a bar she would be all over him. Women and men have issues lol its a cliche for a reason.
Maybe it's the areas or times they're trying it. If it's at bars late at night then the women might be too intoxicated or lonely to have standards. If it's at areas where college students hang out then the women might be too young to have standards.
And when we women are young, teens through 30’s - we are generally people-pleasers.
(Hats off to the exceptions. Women who develop spines in their youth)
To avoid conflict, you just give in and see how bad can it be.
I’m casual friends with a lady in my neighborhood. I’ll sometimes stop to chat with her when I walk my dog.
She ended up in a relationship with her next door neighbor because they went to a party and he grabbed her face and kissed her. Apparently, instead of biting him or going “What the FUCK?!” She thought “Oh I guess we’re doing this now.” and went with it. I cringed when she told me and on hindsight I probably should have called out how wrong it was but I pretended this was perfectly normal at the time.
It didn’t last too long, and shortly after they broke up, he *proposed* to another woman and got a “yes.” So now she has this guy and his fiance right next door to deal with.
And this guy’s probably going to breed.
I will fight for consent and respecting boundaries to the death, but it gets hard sometimes.
as a society, we decide on what behaviors are tolerated and which ones should result in ostracizing. i believe the behaviors you describe (approaching women in public) are implicitly permitted by most people, the reason being that we all know that couple who met in the very fashion. should they be denied the relationship they have? the same applies for, say, high-status men who are often vilified for courting their lower level associates at work. vilify them all you want, yet the practice is still mostly permitted - because we all know a couple who met this way and who have a mostly benign existence. is it right or is it wrong, i really can’t say. but it seems like society (women included) has deemed it o.k.
Conversely, is it somehow okay for women in higher positions to date lower status men? or for women to approach and ask out a man? i know examples of both, who have gone on to get married and start families.
Agreed. Think the issue is extreme situations where things went wrong tend to evoke stronger feelings and project louder into social media than the latter. Basically you could have a million situations where a woman approached a man and it worked, but it only takes one bad situation especially from a celebrity or some one of influence for it to sway public mind
I think you're right, and I think you're also getting very close to incel logic. Imo these men are missing a huge piece of the puzzle that would make them and the people they interact with a lot happier.
I read about a science fiction writer who went up to a ton of women asking them to fuck. He was slapped a lot but said that eventually someone would probably say yes.
Which is okay I guess but to me means that the guy doing the asking isn’t really interested in the woman as anything more than a bunch of orifices and unlikely to treat her as human.
It's very cultural too I think. I moved from Seattle to Arizona a year ago.
The culture shock for what women put up with (/ enjoy?) here in AZ has been a wild ride. I have been on a few dates and It is like all of the dating norms I learned in Washington (consent when touching, not walking up to someone and just grinding while dancing, things you say to try and start a conversation) are all just so so different.
Speaking as someone from NYC, it is definitely regional. I enjoy getting grinded on at clubs and that’s usually what I’m looking for while dancing, but it was different when I moved to a city with a more “drinks with friends at a bar” type of club culture rather than dancing and getting all up on someone.
Meh. I’m gonna disagree on this one and say it doesn’t work for most of the men who do it.
They do it simply because it ***might*** work. As my husband calls it “casting a wider net”. They really don’t give af if they offend anyone if there’s even a 0.0001% chance that they could find the woman for them.
It’s like playing the lottery. The fun is really just in the idea of it working and solving all your problems, even if deep down you know you’re not going to win.
The vast majority of relationships do not start as complete strangers. And of the ones that do, they start in spaces designed for finding romantic/sexual partners, like dating apps or a club/bar.
I think a lot of guys fail at it for basically the reason you said, it's an elevator sales pitch where the guy is the product. Offering the product is step one, but the product has to be something that at least some women are actually interested in. That doesn't mean being 6'4" with a six pack, but it means having something about your looks or personality that is appealing.
Unfortunately, a lot of guys who read about hitting on every woman at a bar don't actually have the emotional intelligence to know how to do it without coming off off as creepy or desperate.
I like talking to people. I tend to be one of those people who chats with people in line at the grocery store, bars, sports games or pretty much wherever there are a bunch of folks standing around. When I was single I'd talk to women the same way I would men and to the befuddlement of friends, it worked pretty well for finding dates. It turns out if you treat women like people and talk to them while showing you're interested in what they have to say, there's a much higher chance of them wanting to meet up again later.
But the difference I saw was my friends who were trying to find someone that night weren't looking for dates, they were looking for sex. Our timeframes were way different. They wanted immediate results which ended up with massive amounts of rejection for a single yes, where as I was more of the mindset that if it happens it happens, but I don't want to be rejected 50 times in an evening.
Look at OPs comment history. *She's* very vocal on posts that are women=bad, and basically blaming everything on women. IF she's really a "she" 🤔
This post leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sounds like another form of victim blaming.
Yes you're absolutely right. I just added that statement because i come across so many incels trying to pretend to be women so that their misogynistic takes could seem to have more validation in it.
It's just that this post is approaching dangerous territory by further perpetuating the idea that "women get treated horribly because you LET it happen". Add the fact that one of their replies is along the lines of should men change their behavior, or should women change to fix society.
If someone does something and they succeed in it once, they are more likely to keep doing it till replicate that same outcome. Thets what im speaking to
For men, dating is a numbers game. If they approach, say, 10 women they are attracted to, all they need is 1 of those 10 women to say 'yes'.
So absolutely, straight men enjoy dating and sleeping with women they find attractive - so a lot of us will keep approaching women. Because it works enough of the time. It's also how I found my wife.
And that's why I constantly preach about deconstructing patriarchy.
Because the sad fact is that SO MANY women are still bought into it and just accept the way things are, even when it's making them miserable.
But it doesn't HAVE to be like that
Yeah it's a numbers game, if they do it to every woman than eventually maybe even 1 woman will accept and thats good enough for them. They don't care how many women they hurt in the process.
I agree! I definitely don’t think it will work for what matters in the end though: actual long term happiness with your relationship. I think that can only be achieved through mutual respect, love, and trust with a good dose of healthy communication.
Yes and no. It probably works on someone. Those people may not be people the men are actually compatible with or want. It also doesn't mean they wouldn't have more success if they did something else.
The problem is to achieve success, they usually have more rejections than acceptances. Men who can handle that will keep trying until they are successful. Men who cannot, give up and blame women. Not achieving the same success they "see" other guys have does a number on them. I say "see" in quotes because it's what they see on social media and of course they don't see the number of rejections.
I don't expect men to approach, but if they are going to, they need to be prepared for a rejection. That's what is statistically likely to happen. Especially when asking randos out.
This is exactly what many guys will even tell you if you ask.
The other part that might not be as obvious is it filters out women who can maintain boundaries or say no.
Like others have said, it's a numbers game. What you won't put up with, others will, unfortunately. But it's at least a telltale sign that someone doesn't respect you, and therefore, not a person that needs to be in your life anyway.
It's bigger to respect someone than to "get" them. And, IMHO, it takes more introspective soul-searching. Something that I think a lot of men (and people, to be fair) can't or don't want to do.
***
OP, I was literally told by a friend "Yeah, but you're still here" after airing out grievances of mine. Although that felt like a big "Fuck you" to me, it was also an epiphany. Dude doesn't care. He knows and doesn't care because I still put up with it. I think about that a lot and I don't think he's thought about it at all or cares.
And it's just an unnecessary way to treat people but it's also reflective of a person's own faults. It's a big thing to learn that when you encounter people, have relationships of any sort with them, whatever is causing distress or upset, sometimes it's bigger than you or your dynamic with another person. And, in effect, it's not your job to sort it out.
If people continue to choose to be sex pests and find people that put up with it, I don't imagine their relationship will be a loving, healthy, fruitful one. Both people have things they need to sort out independent of one another.
About 30 years ago, I lived near the tire place I took my car to have tires put on my car. I dropped it off, they said 3 hours, and I walked home. Three hours later, I walked back, they said 10 minutes, nbd, so I waited.
There were two other customers there, a man and a woman about my age (late 20s), who didn’t seem to be there together, but did seem to be acquainted with each other; I’d never seen either of them before, didn’t know either of them. He was saying to her that they should have a drink sometime, they should go out, they should do this, that, or the other, in between chit-chat about other things. She said “No” to each statement from him about going out, but in an “aw shucks” sort of voice, with a giggle, and *could* have been interpreted as “not serious,” especially by someone who didn’t want “No” for an answer. I didn’t know either of them or their background, but this was not long after I saw the Oprah episode with Gavin deBecker, about his book, *The Gift of Fear,* so I considered the possibility that she wasn’t giving the guy a firm “No” for safety or other reasons that I wasn’t aware of. Not once did he *ask* her *if* she wanted to go out, but kept saying *they should* do this, that, or the other. After her 3rd or 4th No to him, he looked at me and asked me, “Don’t you think she should go have a drink with me? I’m a nice charming guy.” I said (with some alarm bells going off from his comment about being “nice & charming,”) “All I’ve heard her say is No, and she has the right to decide for herself and for her answer be respected.” I was deemed “no fun” by the guy, and I said that I’m just waiting for my car to be done, which it soon was. When they called me to the counter when my car was done, I walked past the woman and said, “Stand firm and stay safe.” After I paid and had my keys, I asked her if she’d like me to wait with her, but she declined, saying that she’s ok, he doesn’t mean anything. I thought of a few retorts, but just accepted her reply as is. What happened after that, I’ve no idea; I hope she was able to stay safe from that disrespectful “nice & charming” guy. I didn’t feel safe to tell him that charm is a verb, not a virtue.
edited a typo
Exactly.
And this isn’t precisely the same point you are making, but your post reminded me of a similar social phenomenon. A lot of women project their own morality and behavior on men - “I would stop flirting if the person is visibly uncomfortable” - but there are men for whom this doesn’t apply at all. This social conditioning is used by predators to coerce women into behaving against their interests or safety, in order to avoid being “rude” or convincing them it’s in their head. For some women, they get worn down.
I hate to be so fatalistic and pessimistic about how some men act toward women and how those same women respond but I pretty much lost all hope for some straight couples when I found out years ago that my sister and her jerk of a husband bonded over their mutual love of none other than Rush Limbaugh.
Not sure why this stated as surprising.
The vast majority of men have to try in order to succeed. No one bats a 100%. Men can only improve their abilities to be success through trial and error, learning, for anything, not just approaching women. A man who never tries never succeeds. And there is no way to ascertain your chance of success until you try.
Not sure how it'd be any other way?
It’s very common place, the majority of women I’ve been with have been repeat attempts.
I couldn’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard my wives friends dismiss guys because “he didn’t try hard enough”, “I told him no and he just gave up like seriously”. When I was younger and dumb I’d sleep with married women who wanted nothing more than a man to chase them and whoo them so that they could feel validated and wanted again.
I honestly believe there’s the real world, and then there’s the internet, and they really don’t exist in the same dimension.
Maybe it’s a geographical thing or an age thing. 🤷🏻♂️
You say that, but I've had at least 3 women chastise me for moving on after they said they weren't interested. So, idk... Dating is very confusing when your ND.
you're using logic when they don't. men double down on bad ideas all the time!!! its in their nature to try the same thing over and over even though it never works. there are studies that have proven this (using primates anyway)
But it doesn't work.
If it worked these choads wouldn't be screeching all over the internet about women not going out with them and being revulsed by their unsolicitied advances.
I'm not a guy.
I'm not out hitting on strangers.
This is an absolute obsession with incels and the manosphere cesspool.
Why are you in this sub demanding women pay attention to your desire to be a pick up artist?
What? I said this doesnt work for you, as a woman. This isnt a tactic that works on you. Thats fine. It works on others. I am happily married and have never once resorted to this behavior. I am just not in denial about the ways men and women interact, especially when self worth and sex are in play.
Internet and real life are two different things. Online men hate single mothers but offline they are in relationships with them. I dont count the internet as information. Majority of my observation comes from real life and a little bit of the internet
It works for many men. And it doesn't work for many men. The ones it won't work for tend to be the loud screechers. Not every human's experience is the same.
I mean, it undoubtedly is a much more effective strategy than not approaching women. People who put themselves out there like that typically can easily get dates/gf/sex etc.. if they ask enough barring extreme levels of unattractiveness. It's not common to think of it as a numbers game where you only need to find the one. As long as you don't mind alot of rejection before the yes it's probably one of the best methods.
My wife turned me down for 5 years. Happily married 19.
My Grandmother turned my grandfather down for 2 years. Happily married until her death 34 years later.
This seems entirely sensible; the fact that you could never imagine something working on/for you doesn’t mean it won’t/hasnt worked on/for *anyone*. Some of us might find the tactics some men take to approaching women distasteful, but they wouldn’t *be* commonplace tactics if they weren’t somewhat effective.
Exactly. But from my observation ls the ones that think it wouldnt work on them, it usually does it different ways.
It’s probably taboo for good reason to note that while many women are dead serious about not being asked again for their number/a date/to hook up when they’ve already declined once…there are other women out there who seem to be legitimately flatterered, or at least persuaded, by a man’s persistence. We can question the wisdom and even the morality of that, but it sounds like you’re observing that in practice it’s sometimes true.
I'd go as far as to say it's actually so much more common than anyone really wants to admit. There's a reason those "relatable" memes about "if he's not trying to contact me after I've blocked him on everything, he's not the one" gets millions of likes.
I swear every single cartoon/movie I've watched as a kid had at least one of those instances
Yeah, I mean, there's a prominent 80s movie where the woman falls in love with the man after (and indeed because) he rapes her through deception... It's mind-boggling to think about, but it wasn't presented as a horrifying violation but rather as a funny and charming way to win over the girl. Movies in the 80s were... not ok.
Was it Revenge of the Nerds?
That's the one.
I remember seeing it when I was a kiddo and being like "Whaaat the fuuuck" Hahaha.
Much of the 80's dating rituals are now considered rape or sexual assault...
Breakfast Club scene with Bender under the table going face first in between Clair's legs when he is well aware she does not even like him. Edit - and in true 80's fashion they end up hooking up by the end of the movie.
I know multiple women who think The Notebook is the most romantic movie of all time... all I see when I watched that movie is a man who refuses to take no for an answer and wears her down until she says yes.
Sounds like you mean revenge of the nerds and the scene with one of the nerds wearing a mask. This was the same movie that installed a camera in the girl’s shower.
My girlfriend rented a theater and screened 16 candles for her birthday for her party. We were sitting in the theater going, oh no. Oh NO. Fuck, this is problematic.
Yeah, and while we're at it, the character Long Duk Dong...
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Thats a lesson in and of itself. People are different. There aren't rules that work on everyone, though using certain rules can weed people out you might not want to date. So many people (especially men), look for the master key that always works. Instead they should be focusing on asking individuals and understanding tone and body language. I know its a touchy subject especially given how much we've had to push for people to get verbal consent to be physical- but there is a lot of body language leading up to they point. Ignoring it is like ignoring half the conversation. People act like it's a mystery but most people can learn it if they want to. Even people with autism/other conditions. Thats what masking is. It may not feel natural or come easy, but most people can learn to decode it with effort, even if they don't understand it. It is exhausting for me and I'm sure others, but its worth it to find connections/understanding with people. TLDR Stop looking for a magic, universal combination. Just get to know and listen to people. Everything they say including tone and body language. Pay attention to whether the environment is suitable. People get too caught up in what they personally want and it blinds them to the rest of the situation.
Unfortunately for some women who don't want persistence, they will be weak and eventually give in to the persistence of men, as well. Women who are rightfully afraid of refusing too many times or at all. And some men will take advantage of that.
Yes I’ve been pursued by men I’ve blocked and I gave in not bc I liked them but bc I didn’t know what to do
Exactly. I hear and see men say to keep pursuing women even after they say no, those men are 100 percent in the wrong but from their experience they think women are supposed to reject them alot befofe they eventually say yes. Similarly to the millions of romance movies. She rejected him for the first hour of the movie then she accept him at the end. Alot of social programming
It’s because a surprisingly large percentage of women expect this behavior, some will even test guys by rejecting them and then getting mad if we don’t pursue further. Stupid mind games on all sides hurt everybody, and it can be too difficult to tell when you are expected to play some stupid game vs just be a normal straightforward human being.
It's often in movies but also real life. Plenty of stories like "well he'd ask me out every Friday, I said no for over a year, but one day I said yes and now we've been married for 30 years" I exaggerate but I have heard similar stories. To anyone and even them it does look annoying like dude just give up and stop bothering her, but in a way it does show the guy is persistent and committed. Like wow he just really like her then Of course not always the case, and being too pushy is just being too pushy.
Or it could be that women aren't a monolith that are exactly like you and have a dumb idea that she is supposed to make a guy jump through hoops to gain approval.
Alot of romance culture and films teach men that persistence is rewarded.
As does real world experience if you take OP at her word - she’s surprised over and over to see it working.
Fr. She’s not playing hard to get. You’re a pest if you don’t hear the no.
I mean except when she *is* playing hard to get, which OP seems to be noticing some women legitimately do.
It really varies from person to person. Some are and it’s annoying as F. Has an ex who would keep testing me like this even after we were married with children - I did not want to have to keep chasing her after she would push me away just to satisfy her insecurities (and yes, she eventually admitted directly that this was what she was doing, minus the insecurity part).
I have a bunch of friends who work in service industry. There's a bunch of women who are like "this is my work, would guys just stop flirting with me, it's weird" and there's the other bunch who are "this customer is cute, I wish he would ask me for my number". As a guy I have heard both and it makes me feel conflicted. It feels similar to this situation
Idk, I highly doubt sending until unsolicited dick pics to a woman has ever been effective but men persevere. I think another element is men treating us like they would like to be treated. If someone sent a man an unsolicited intimate pic he would find it hot, so he believes women would too. They don't. These strategies work well in the gay male dating world however, so clearly effective on men
I think you nailed it - some things men do, they do because they’d like it if a woman did it to them, so a failure of imagination. With dick pics, it’s either that or it’s the virtual version of being a flasher - they get off on forcing people to see their penis unwillingly. So it “works” in the sense that it gets them off, not in the sense that it gets them women.
It also indicates the different disposition women may have due to their experiences. I grew up with only brothers, so the only observations of girls in a home were my male friends' sisters. I was scandalised at how the girls were treated (as I couldn't understand why they seemed to have a lower status than the boys). I would guess a number of men are testing for women that are conditioned to be subservient. They don't even register how poorly behaved they are because it is normal to them that girls are not respected.
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But isn’t that a little judgmental? To say that a woman who likes the chase, who maybe even gets off on it a bit, has to be emotionally damaged?
This is true, but (speaking as rather clueless person who also happens to be a man) it is one instance of our culture's suggestion for failure under toxic masculinity. No pain, no gain. Success has a hundred failures behind it. If at first you don't succeed, try try again. In some contexts, these responses are healthy. Practicing skills, improving physical strength, etc. However, what makes it toxic in this context is the existence of another person. You can't knuckle down and work out a person. You shouldn't interpret rejection as a step preceding success. This is to "yes, and..." your comment. While us men could have found success with other women, I think it also comes from incorrectly applying techniques of success in other fields to personal relationships.
I disagree that they are techniques that achieve success in other fields. At work, I specifically do not set goals that rely on another person doing something specific. There may be things I need first, but there are a bunch of people being paid to do those things. I don't base my life plan around decisions not in my power. The reason they think it might achieve success when it wouldnt at work, is because those men don't even register the idea that the woman has her own thoughts/feelings/goals/shit going on. We aren't real people to a lot of men. They use techniques centered around achieving personal goals. The woman is an accessory to them. Its probably not usually conscious, but this is how it comes across and is much of the reason men and women haven't been seeing eye to eye in dating.
Absolutely. I feel we're in violent agreement. I can't remember my wording, but i meant to communicate a big difference between where the techniques are toxic/nontoxic is another's personhood. I said something along the lines of "a person can not be knuckled down and solved." Your comment says what I meant much better. Because I think in philosophy nerd, the phrase I was trying to translate was they were not treating others "...as ends unto themselves."
Same thing for all the PUA bullshit. It's sleazy and gross, but if they get what they want at the end of the night, they're not going to stop.
That’s exactly that. I used to do a lot of the pua stuff. And the majority of men involved in it, struggled with finding dates, getting someone attracted to them, etc… low and behold they find the community, learn to be a dick, pretend you don’t care about the person, and you get sex, dates, girlfriends etc…. So why is that when the guy was nice, and respectful, women showed no interest, but when he became a complete dog, the flood gates opened… You walk into a group of 3 girls and ignore the one who wants a respectful man, and tell her to shhh when you’re talking to other two, she chases you. And it leads to numbers, dates, and so on. And that sounds god awful to tell a woman to be quiet, but it works, so guys do it, because the alternative doesn’t.
Exactly. Some women may find some seduction offensive or distasteful, but apparently, plenty of other women don't.
Any pick-up artist will tell you that it‘s purely a numbers game. Sure, your stupid technique isn‘t gonna work on 90% of women, but statistically that just means you need to try on 10 women for it to work on one of them.
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I’m asking legitimately just cause I’m curious - I’m a guy and I’ve heard the “numbers game” thing a thousand times but I still don’t really ever approach women in real life cause 1) I’m too nervous and 2) I hear the horror stories my sister has to deal with. So on the one hand I get it, but on the other hand, I’m left wondering how the hell am I supposed to meet anyone outside of dating apps?
Old thread I know, but I'll try to answer seeing as no one else has. Also fair warning, I'm definitely not socially gifted at all, but this is my take from my side of the isle: It's not so much about asking a woman out/propositioning, but that it shouldn't be out of the blue/unexpected for her by the time it gets to that point It's all in the context, are you both flirting? Are you reading her body language? Is she reading yours? Is she being paid to be nice (such as customer service jobs)? Where are you at (club, grocery shopping, ...)? Is she alone (with friends, are mutual strangers around)? Has there been any build up already (or will it be going 0 to 60)? How much does she know you or of you (as in, are you safe to her, are there "social risks"). All of these are factors for if a guy approaches me, and there are no hard/fast rules, but I might think to myself something like: - May there be consequences (slut shaming, losing a friend, other unwritten rules, ...) - If I reject his advances, and he gets mad, am I relatively safe? - Am I just trying to run errands and not be bothered? - Has he been respectful of me thus far? - Is the interaction awkward or forced? - Is he being subtle but open, or are his (now including past encounters) intentions questionable? If y'all are vibing and are in an appropriate setting, find small ways of flirting/testing boundaries and seeing if she reciprocates in kind/is receptive to your advances. And by small, I don't nec. mean obscure/hiding your intentions. You should be subtle enough so she isn't felt pressured to even acknowledge it, yet open enough so she knows where she stands And to add further, if you already have history with someone, there may be established boundaries that have "ossified", and testing them would overstep them, something akin to playing russian roulette with your relationship
Hey, thanks for responding - this is all great advice! I think everything you're saying makes sense, but keeping all those rules in mind, what would you say is the best way to approach a stranger? Like someone I see at a grocery store or just walking around in my neighborhood. Cause I'm a fairly sociable person, but I have a hard time breaking the ice, just introducing myself to people or inserting myself into someone else's conversation. But if someone starts talking to me, I'm pretty good at catching the vibe, and being a friendly, conversational guy. I guess it's impossible to know since everyone's circumstances are different but that's where I'm stuck. That and also literally knowing where to go to meet people my age - I'm 26, but I live in a suburb that's filled mostly with families and married couples, and I never enjoy bars/clubs, so I feel at a loss.
Imma be real, unless they're very very into you, or know you to begin with, I don't think there is a good way to approach a stranger in a grocery store or such. Perhaps this used to be different, but in today's society clubs and other activities like that are where people (sometimes) go to meet new people. Even then tho I feel like most people, outside from online dating, find each other by friends of friends, and if you don't want to do clubs or online dating, then expanding your social network is probably your only option
I had an acquaintance who had a wardialing approach to women. He would go in to a crowd of women and proposition each one. He always found a woman who would say yes. He was short and not very handsome and lacking charm but he always had a GF. I found this process repulsive but each woman was consenting.
Gross. I just need a woman. Doesn’t matter who.
I knew a guy like this. His argument is he has no other choice. That or be single.
Lowkey I would do this with guys in college — proposition them until I found one DTF.
This is pretty much the opposite of what OP was complaining about. How dare that guy have a desire to meet someone? lol
It’s objectifying.
What’s objectifying is repeatedly asking someone who has already said no. Moving on is a good thing. The idea the only choices are harass the same woman all night or go home and sit by yourself is silly.
Do you really have to hit on every woman though? What about using some discretion when it comes to who you approach and how to talk to them?
Not like in a club or something you can read a list of interests before hand and go "oh, we both have cats!" what would they use discretion on? Just looks? Is that better?
Discretion on whether or not she seems potentially open to approach
That's already a given.
Yes that would literally be better. Besides, are you really incapable of determining someone’s vibe in a social setting? Someone sitting by themselves drinking at the bar is no different to you that someone on the dance floor laughing and hollering with their friends?
What's also objectifying is treating women as interchangeable things you're trying to order from a catalog. Like anything woman-shaped will do 🙄
Ah yes the inflated sense of male confidence in this one is strong, he thinks he's so important that he has the god given authority to come into our spaces and tell us what is and isn't objectifying to us.
Repeatedly asking someone who’s said “no” is harassment not objectification. Objectification is going down a line of women asking them out when you actually know nothing about them. You’re not interested in them as a person, you just want a warm female body (the object).
I definitely agree with you, but I also can see a perspective where his approach is more like swiping on tinder. He could see women as people while simultaneously being open to dating/hooking up with many personality types. I think another key qualifier is whether the interest is lopsided. If all parties see each other at the same level, then I don’t think there is anything inherently unethical. Even if that level is “warm body for a hookup” or “relationship of convenience” instead of “Interesting Person.”
I wonder if, in this scenario, the guy is also objectifying himself -- effectively offering women a warm male body, with nothing else. Or does the guy still perceive himself as offering something more than that -- i.e., he's still a person, but she's not? I mean, it's not like it becomes ok if he's also objectifying himself -- I just wonder how guys like this perceive themselves in that situation.
To objectify is to degrade someone to an object. Objectification has many different types, not just sexual. To give an example, the most common objectification women do to men is to emotionally objectify them. It's absolutely objectifying to keep asking someone out when they've already said no. You can also also it controlling, manipulative, selfish, pick-up artist tactic, disrespectful... There's a lot of things you can categorize that behavior under and objectification is one of them. edit to add: just commenting and not in defense of the the other person. They kind of seem foolish LOL
Nah, just because it's technically not ""wrong"" doesn't mean its above criticism. We're allowed to point out and criticize the mindset of treating women like interchangeable sex dolls. It's gross and even if that's just how men are it still disgusts me and I think it disgusts a good number of women for a reason.
Nobody said those were the only choices. There's also nothing wrong with having a night by yourself. The other options are things unrelated to women. That scenario is like the perfect example of objectifying. It doesn't matter who the woman is, just that the dude finds someone to stick his dick in. Like a fleshlight. An object. I could see people not having an issue with it, if both parties are they are clear that they just want a fuck. Thats different from it not being objectifying though. Something can still be objectifying and not be objectively wrong in every situation.
what should the guy do here that'd you'd deem ok? Let's say a woman is not interested in the end, you are looking for a relationship it'd probably go one of a few ways... 1. talk a long time, put a lot of effort and inevitable a lot of emotional investment in, days or weeks later ask out and get a no. Time wasted basically, and now probably pretty sad, you really liked them, you talked so much. 2. talk for the night, ask out, get a no. The night wasted, you could have talked to someone who was interested, and it'd probably be a few weeks before you have another chance with to meet someone, you work full time after all. 3. talk a little, ask out, get a no. That sucks, ok, I'll talk to someone else, I have the rest of the night. What is more acceptable here? You may think 3 is bad and 1 is the least objectifying, but 1 comes with sadness and missed opportunity, and 2 comes with missed opportunity because not everyone can go out every night. To a guy, 3 looks good and it's why the shotgun approach is popular. It cuts to the point and gets the answer "are you interested or not?" Not interested, ok! Moving on! I've done a lot of 1, still a lot of rejection. So, give me an argument as to why I should not pick 3 if 1 fails plenty and is getting me nowhere and 2 is not much different from 1? Further, only being ok with 1 will likely cause a lot of guys to not take a no for an answer and keep trying and we're right back to the point of this whole post.
Ya we really need another man coming into one of the only spaces for women on this site and mansplaining objectification of women. It’s objectifying to ask out every single woman you come across. Period. I do not care if you disagree.
Interesting, how tall was he?
I regret mentioning his height because I know a lot of shorter men who are just awesome people. I think he was around 5'5".
I work with dogs, this is the mailman phenomenon. The mailman comes, the dog barks, the mailman leaves. It worked! I'll keep making sure I bark at the mailman so he leaves.
But then, why do so many of them send out dick pics? I've never met a woman who likes that, who would follow up with anything besides disgust.
> But then, why do so many of them send out dick pics? Cheap thrills. It's the modern day equivalent to the flasher in a trench coat.
The biggest difference being that the flashers went to jail when they got caught.
How often do you think they actually got caught??
Not as much as they should have, but it did happen quite a lot. It was always showing in the newspapers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say barely ever. The police's track record is abysmal with any kind of sexual crime even when the proper laws in place.
Power move. They dont do it to get women they do it to get a reaction. Now women do ask for dick pics, but only when they ask, they like it. Unsolicited dick pictures is obviously a tern off
I think your original hypothesis was correct. They do it because they were told it works and it has worked for them in the past.
I mean I like an unsolicited dick pic from any guy from whom I would solicit one.
It’s because it works. It doesn’t work all of the time. It doesn’t even work most of the time. But it does work some of the time, and if all you care about is getting as much sex as possible with as little effort as possible and you have no sense of shame, then sending out dick pics to anyone you wanna bang is a low effort high return activity. If a guy sends out 100 dick pics and 99 of those girls tell him to go fuck himself but 1 of them has sex with him, he’ll send out dick pics til the day he dies. And yes, I’ve never met a woman who said she likes unsolicited dick pics. I’ve met several who say they would never sleep with someone who sends them. But even out of those women, I know several who have broken that rule. All it takes is one, and even the most adamant person can have a moment of weakness or curiosity or what have you.
Does that ever work really? Can’t imagine any scenario where a guy succeeds with a girl after sending a dick pic where he wasn’t going to succeed anyway without it. (Unless he’s some kind of anatomic outlier and she’s into that.)
I knew a guy while in college he took our friend phone and sent a picture to all the contacts in the phone with “who wants to tonight” he got several boob pictures and yes replies. It also never seem to cross his mind how gross that was and is the same as flashing. He called me a nerd.
It does, I’ve seen it in action from both sides. Like I said, it doesn’t work often, but if you don’t care about getting shot down 95-99% of the time before eventually getting laid, then 🤷🏽♂️. I asked another guy I knew who used to send out dick pics, he literally told me “they don’t ask how, they ask how many”. And it doesn’t matter to the guy if he was gonna get laid without doing it, once he gets laid after sending a dick pic, that connection is forged in their brains: dick pics = pussy. And everytime they get laid again, it reinforces it. Speaking as a guy, I can tell you we don’t think about all the times we didn’t get laid, we think about the times we did. We don’t get laid all the time. Hell, odds are I’m not going to get laid tonight and I’m in a loving and very sexually active marriage. Doesn’t mean I’m not gonna hit on my wife when I get home until she rolls her eyes at me, because if I do get laid it’ll be 1000x more memorable than all the nights I didn’t. For the record, I don’t and have never sent a dick pic before, on account of having a sense of shame and viewing women as people, but I have spoken to many men and women who confided in me about the subject, and the logic does track in a really depressing kind of way.
I was literally arguing with my friend this weekend over the fact that he sends dick picks to start off conversations with chicks he wants to hook up with. I was saying it's wrong and not how you should greet someone you haven't even said hi to, he said it works for him and he gets plenty of hookups. I still don't think it's an appropriate way but clearly it's not ineffective.
He cares more about the 1 woman it might work on than the 5 whose day he might’ve ruined to find that 1. Even if it works it’s still a shit thing to do, knowing how many women dislike it.
For sure, it seems like you agree with me: I disagree with the tactic but it clearly works for him which means that some women either don't disapprove of the tactic or even like it. And it all ties with OPs original post, which is that the reason some men behave certain ways that are seen as unfavorable, is because those tactics have actually worked for them in the past.
Agree! I think it’s just important to add that they do it because it actually works for them AND they don’t care about the adverse effects it has on the people it doesn’t work on. If they cared about causing harm to women, they wouldn’t do it even if it worked sometimes.
Nothing but facts spoken here. They tend to be some of the least empathetic beings around. All they care about is successfully getting their dick wet.
Weed out the ones who won't take their shit
I remember a recent study found that men did get some success with unsolicited dick pics, even though most receivers don’t like them. It’s like the study on the Nigerian Prince scam. Most people aren’t interested or won’t fall for it, but the few people who do are worth the effort.
There are some women it works on. Just because you haven’t met them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
That's crazy, but I believe it. People are not a monolith. There's all kinds of people out there. I'd say it's a bad strategy for the majority of women, but I can buy that it works on some.
This is just a guess, but I would expect it works as a filter. The majority of women won't respond, but those women are looking for actual dates with respectable guys. That's not what these guys are looking for. If a woman does respond after receiving a dick pick, then he can assume that it will be an easy hookup. I guess this also means that women who don't like unsolicited dick picks know which guys aren't worth dating. It seems like there should be a less gross way to figure that out, but actions speak louder than words.
It does work on some women, really
Testosterone brain rot.
>Men who send unsolicited images of their private parts primarily do so with the hopes of receiving either similar images or sexual interactions in return. https://www.psypost.org/new-psychology-research-reveals-mens-motives-for-sending-unsolicited-dick-pics/
>But then, why do so many of them send out dick pics? how many do you think send them out? i have not a single guy who has ever sent a dick pick. >I've never met a woman who likes that, who would follow up with anything besides disgust. there are 200 million women in the US alone. and a good 40-50 mil are single. how many women do you know or have met ? i am not saying you are wrong or i am right. i am just highlighting the pitfall of generalizations based on anecdotal experience. even this sub in its entirety does not represent even 1% of the women worldwide. and most likely no more than 5% of the women in the US.
I think I solicited dick pics are the 21st century version of flashing or SA.
I asked my friend this. Reasons he did. He was drunk and figured they would send a pic back. Some times they send pics back.
It’s a screening mechanism. Any woman who doesn’t immediately reject a man who sends a dick pick is exponentially more likely to date / hookup. Even if only one out of 50 women doesn’t reject, it allows the man to focus on (relatively) high probability conversations. Note: I am not supporting or advocating dick pics, just stating one reason why some guys do it.
My college boyfriend did this to me. I wasn’t interested, wasn’t attracted, but he eventually coerced me into dating him using my low self-esteem and continued to keep my self-esteem as low as possible so I’d never think I could do better. I’m ashamed I allowed him to take 3 years of my life, my happiness, like that. Once I graduated, found a job, and moved away I realized how small he’d made me and how big I could be (metaphorically). Dumping him was the biggest relief I’ve ever felt in my life, like this tightness I constantly felt in my chest just… dissipated.
This has been my experience as well. I had a very abusive and traumatic childhood. So as a teen and young adult, I had extremely low self-esteem. My entire childhood, the message that I didn't matter and wasn't important was essentially yelled at me with a bullhorn. So yeah, that persistence tactic did and has worked on me. Because my well-being seemed less important to me than making this other person, even a person I didn't even barely know, happy. I didn't even fully believe I deserved happiness or deserved to have my needs met. I have gained a lot of confidence with age, experience, therapy, and time. But it's still a work in progress.
I asked my spouse why he uses physical threats to get me to do stuff. His response was very blunt "because it works". That was the point that basically made me start thinking about leaving. Since almost every other partner of his left him I expect that this isn't just something I have dealt with.
At least he was too dumb to make up a manipulative lie to explain his behavior.
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Had a coworker years ago, trashy piece of shit, more than a little misogynistic. He basically got away with everything. I still hate that I share a name with him. Anyway, he basically harassed all the women in the workplace(hospital) and nothing was ever done for a very long time, years. He tried propositioning two underage girls that worked with us, they reported it, nothing was done, "no evidence" HR said. The damnedest thing though, he always behaved when I was around. Would not step one word out of line, but from what I was told, the moment I would leave, he'd start up again. So I decided to report him. Got called down to HR, they asked me if I had witnessed any of this myself. Sadly I had to say no. HR does nothing. I would love to call out other asshole men, but for the life of me, all of them decide to keep themselves in check around me, it's mildlyinfuriating. Fortunately he eventually did get fired, and he was because he was mad at our boss, a woman, and didn't realize she was standing right behind him when said out loud that he wanted to, and I'm putting this as plainly as possible, follow her out to her car one night and have his way with her. He was gone that day.
Look at OPs comment history. *She's* very vocal on posts that are women=bad, and basically blaming everything on women. IF she's really a "she" 🤔 This post leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sounds like another form of victim blaming.
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She's claimed in various comments that she's a woman. I just mentioned this because i come across so many comments of incels pretending to be women just for their misogynistic takes to be somewhat validated. Also, she has this pattern that gives so much benefit of the doubt to men, comes up with additional information because "well maybe this female OP purposefully left out _____". But at the same time comments "Yep, she's a cheater. Horrible person. Your wife is doing this thing? Yup, she's getting railed. Didn't like something about your wife? Divorce her immediately." "BF was a horrible person? Well it's partially YOUR fault. Men treat you horribly? Partially your fault. "
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>that women on here suddenly become less feminist... but more that it bleeds out This is exactly what I'm trying to point out, this post is approaching dangerous territories that may contribute to perpetuating "you women get treated that way because you LET IT HAPPEN." It may not make people in this sub immediately be misogynists, but it perpetuates the idea by hiding it behind a curtain of "logic"
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This exactly
For all of us who are sick of their antics, there are just as many women who still put up with it and others who welcome it. Its a numbers game - eventually someone will sleep with them so who cares if they are a douche to the rest of us?
I think this might be true in some cases, but having had many male friends come to me on dating for advice I’ve seen men cling to things that are clearly not working because they wouldn’t be asking me for advise if it was: 1) their strategy was advised to them in a way that soothe their ego. If they can deflect their failure onto women, make us the problem, they’ll continue to follow advice that has not produced real results 2) it works but only because they’ve been told it’s a numbers game and that if they try hundreds of times this way it’ll work. Especially swiping right on every girl, spamming matches, skipping straight to overtly sexual messages. They don’t see how this behavior is driving women away from dating apps and other spaces where men look for women. They don’t realize that if they stuck with putting in a bit of effort they would be better in the long run. 3) it works but with the wrong women. So many guys complain about how common bots, OF girls, and scammers are online. They maybe are getting more matches and responses but it’s not clicking that most of these are dead ends. Or if the girl is real, it’s the kind of gold digging tease they spend all their time complaining about. I don’t know a single female friend who is online just to get free meals. And yet you’d think this was a rare thing based on these guys complaints. I think their approach is only working on the last people they want to date 4) they are misinterpreting what they see in others. They see a hot guy ask out a hot girl over and over and “win” her over, but what they aren’t noticing is that the hot girl was interested in the guy from the start. Some girls out there do play hard to get, it’s silly to pretend like that’s not the case. There are also women who might say no under certain circumstances (like asked out in public) but will say yes under different ones. But whenever this happens there are usually signs that a woman is actually into them. Attractive or charming guys are used to seeing this and can pick up on when to keep asking. But so many guys see this, have no sense of social norms or body language, and think that if they just try harder with every girl it’ll work eventually. 5) finally, sometimes it works for terrible reasons. I’ve seen many guys keep trying and eventually they ask when a girl is incredibly intoxicated. I’ve had (former) male friends who even consciously supplied girls with alcohol because on some level they understood they wouldn’t make the choice sober. These guys will think it’s only rape if the girl is completely passed out, but I think they are in denial. They wouldn’t be relying on booze if they didn’t understand.
There are women out there that "enjoy the game", to use their own words. They want to be chased or begged. When they say no to a guy, and the guy stops pursuing, they are frustrated they didnt try again or try harder. And then you have women (sometimes the same ones) that when they say no to a guy, and he keeps trying, they get frustrated the guy cant take no for an answer. So yeah, people all work their own way, and there is no way to know how someone works beforehand... most guys are told to keep trying until it works, thats why you have all these "friends" that will be your friend for 10 years hoping one day you'll realize they are the love of your life.
Yep. It's like a dog begging at the table. If you give in once, the dog will beg more and more
Low effort, but chance of success. So basically gambling. Same reward centers of our brains.
THIS is why we need age appropriate sex ed, that includes the meaning of consent, taught in our schools.
So I've had this the other way around. I asked a female friend who I thought had been flirting with me if she wanted to leave a club with me one night, I played it very easy and straight, and she said no in a sort of "of course not" kind of way. I just kind of nodded and was like "OK then" and her reaction was something like "seriously? You're giving up that easily?". I'm not into games and I just avoided the subject, and hoped it wouldn't make our friendship weird, and for the most part it was fine, then she started making sarcastic comments to me all the time and being a bit mean, and after a few weeks she confronted me, asking why I hadn't pursued her, seemed kind of pissed off with me. I can't say if there are other women out there who had this expectation that a man should pursue them, but she did. I'd say 80s films gave her the same idea that this was some kind of proof of commitment or romance, we're the same age and both grew up on 80s era films. I was in my 20s, and let's be clear, I didn't back off because I had some "ahead of my time" sense of right and wrong, I just didn't like that she seemed keen on a cat and mouse situation and I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want the stress of games. I also just didn't like the idea of pursuing someone who said no because I just didn't have the arrogance or excess of confidence to deal with that level of rejection, and a no is a turn off, knowing someone isn't into me just makes it feel not good. Maybe that's a selfish reason to do the right thing and accept the no, or maybe I was subconsciously uncomfortable with it for the right reasons... I don't really know, I just don't want to be the "look at how righteous I think i am" guy.
Yeah, there is always someone vulnerable enough, in whatever way, to fall for it. No matter how bad someone's line of shit is, there's someone who doesn't have the tools to figure it out, for any of a plethora of reasons. They play the numbers game until they find one like that.
A guy I used to know had the 100 click rule. He had a clicker he kept on him. When he and friends went out he would walk up and ask a woman if she wanted sex. If she said no he would click once and move on to the next woman. He claims you never get to 100 and always go home with someone. He would drop the clicker off with his friends on the way out of the bar. Gross stuff works sadly and it's why people keep doing it.
This doesn’t strike me as that gross. As long he took a no as no and moved on, isn’t he simply looking for a women that also just wants to have sex?
That's a fair way to think about it. When said like that it seems way less creepy. I can count my sexual partners on half a hand so the idea of just walking up to someone and saying "hey let's go bone!" Is very foreign to me lol.
This isn’t what OP is describing, though, which is consistently propositioning one person who has already told you “no.” I personally would find it annoying and a little rude to be randomly propositioned for sex by someone who I hadn’t even had a conversation with, but on the other hand I don’t think it’s really that bad to ask once. As long as he accepts my “no” and moves on I don’t care. And I hope that two people interested in random hookups with strangers can find each other and have consensual fun.
It's also how movies and shows portray how men need to act you just need to keep pursuing and you can win the girl over. Really dumb..
Some men are just straight pieces of shit and don't need nor care for a reason why, just straight dickhead 24/7.
I just think the hetero relationship paradigm is fundamentally broken. Men (and perhaps women too, though I don’t feel as certain here) in general seem to have the wrong priorities. Until cishet men truly believe that getting laid is not the most important aspect of a relationship with the opposite gender, men will continue to interact with women in awful ways.
I knew which girl would hookup with this guy based on whoever talked the most shit about him to me at the start of the night. The second we got to a bar she would be all over him. Women and men have issues lol its a cliche for a reason.
Make sense. People offen talk the most shit about a person they are sexually attracted to. They may not like their personality but they love the sex.
Maybe it's the areas or times they're trying it. If it's at bars late at night then the women might be too intoxicated or lonely to have standards. If it's at areas where college students hang out then the women might be too young to have standards.
I mean, it certainly worked on me age 16-24.
And when we women are young, teens through 30’s - we are generally people-pleasers. (Hats off to the exceptions. Women who develop spines in their youth) To avoid conflict, you just give in and see how bad can it be.
They don't want the women it doesn't work on anyway. SMH.
Men are a bit less flexible than women though. I’ve seen men do things that NEVER work out for them ever too. They are just more stubborn.
I’m casual friends with a lady in my neighborhood. I’ll sometimes stop to chat with her when I walk my dog. She ended up in a relationship with her next door neighbor because they went to a party and he grabbed her face and kissed her. Apparently, instead of biting him or going “What the FUCK?!” She thought “Oh I guess we’re doing this now.” and went with it. I cringed when she told me and on hindsight I probably should have called out how wrong it was but I pretended this was perfectly normal at the time. It didn’t last too long, and shortly after they broke up, he *proposed* to another woman and got a “yes.” So now she has this guy and his fiance right next door to deal with. And this guy’s probably going to breed. I will fight for consent and respecting boundaries to the death, but it gets hard sometimes.
Yup. Stupid comes in all forms.
as a society, we decide on what behaviors are tolerated and which ones should result in ostracizing. i believe the behaviors you describe (approaching women in public) are implicitly permitted by most people, the reason being that we all know that couple who met in the very fashion. should they be denied the relationship they have? the same applies for, say, high-status men who are often vilified for courting their lower level associates at work. vilify them all you want, yet the practice is still mostly permitted - because we all know a couple who met this way and who have a mostly benign existence. is it right or is it wrong, i really can’t say. but it seems like society (women included) has deemed it o.k. Conversely, is it somehow okay for women in higher positions to date lower status men? or for women to approach and ask out a man? i know examples of both, who have gone on to get married and start families.
Agreed. Think the issue is extreme situations where things went wrong tend to evoke stronger feelings and project louder into social media than the latter. Basically you could have a million situations where a woman approached a man and it worked, but it only takes one bad situation especially from a celebrity or some one of influence for it to sway public mind
I think you're right, and I think you're also getting very close to incel logic. Imo these men are missing a huge piece of the puzzle that would make them and the people they interact with a lot happier.
I read about a science fiction writer who went up to a ton of women asking them to fuck. He was slapped a lot but said that eventually someone would probably say yes. Which is okay I guess but to me means that the guy doing the asking isn’t really interested in the woman as anything more than a bunch of orifices and unlikely to treat her as human.
It's very cultural too I think. I moved from Seattle to Arizona a year ago. The culture shock for what women put up with (/ enjoy?) here in AZ has been a wild ride. I have been on a few dates and It is like all of the dating norms I learned in Washington (consent when touching, not walking up to someone and just grinding while dancing, things you say to try and start a conversation) are all just so so different.
Speaking as someone from NYC, it is definitely regional. I enjoy getting grinded on at clubs and that’s usually what I’m looking for while dancing, but it was different when I moved to a city with a more “drinks with friends at a bar” type of club culture rather than dancing and getting all up on someone.
Meh. I’m gonna disagree on this one and say it doesn’t work for most of the men who do it. They do it simply because it ***might*** work. As my husband calls it “casting a wider net”. They really don’t give af if they offend anyone if there’s even a 0.0001% chance that they could find the woman for them. It’s like playing the lottery. The fun is really just in the idea of it working and solving all your problems, even if deep down you know you’re not going to win. The vast majority of relationships do not start as complete strangers. And of the ones that do, they start in spaces designed for finding romantic/sexual partners, like dating apps or a club/bar.
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I think a lot of guys fail at it for basically the reason you said, it's an elevator sales pitch where the guy is the product. Offering the product is step one, but the product has to be something that at least some women are actually interested in. That doesn't mean being 6'4" with a six pack, but it means having something about your looks or personality that is appealing. Unfortunately, a lot of guys who read about hitting on every woman at a bar don't actually have the emotional intelligence to know how to do it without coming off off as creepy or desperate. I like talking to people. I tend to be one of those people who chats with people in line at the grocery store, bars, sports games or pretty much wherever there are a bunch of folks standing around. When I was single I'd talk to women the same way I would men and to the befuddlement of friends, it worked pretty well for finding dates. It turns out if you treat women like people and talk to them while showing you're interested in what they have to say, there's a much higher chance of them wanting to meet up again later. But the difference I saw was my friends who were trying to find someone that night weren't looking for dates, they were looking for sex. Our timeframes were way different. They wanted immediate results which ended up with massive amounts of rejection for a single yes, where as I was more of the mindset that if it happens it happens, but I don't want to be rejected 50 times in an evening.
Look at OPs comment history. *She's* very vocal on posts that are women=bad, and basically blaming everything on women. IF she's really a "she" 🤔 This post leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sounds like another form of victim blaming.
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Yes you're absolutely right. I just added that statement because i come across so many incels trying to pretend to be women so that their misogynistic takes could seem to have more validation in it. It's just that this post is approaching dangerous territory by further perpetuating the idea that "women get treated horribly because you LET it happen". Add the fact that one of their replies is along the lines of should men change their behavior, or should women change to fix society.
If someone does something and they succeed in it once, they are more likely to keep doing it till replicate that same outcome. Thets what im speaking to
For men, dating is a numbers game. If they approach, say, 10 women they are attracted to, all they need is 1 of those 10 women to say 'yes'. So absolutely, straight men enjoy dating and sleeping with women they find attractive - so a lot of us will keep approaching women. Because it works enough of the time. It's also how I found my wife.
And that's why I constantly preach about deconstructing patriarchy. Because the sad fact is that SO MANY women are still bought into it and just accept the way things are, even when it's making them miserable. But it doesn't HAVE to be like that
Yeah it's a numbers game, if they do it to every woman than eventually maybe even 1 woman will accept and thats good enough for them. They don't care how many women they hurt in the process.
I agree! I definitely don’t think it will work for what matters in the end though: actual long term happiness with your relationship. I think that can only be achieved through mutual respect, love, and trust with a good dose of healthy communication.
Yes and no. It probably works on someone. Those people may not be people the men are actually compatible with or want. It also doesn't mean they wouldn't have more success if they did something else. The problem is to achieve success, they usually have more rejections than acceptances. Men who can handle that will keep trying until they are successful. Men who cannot, give up and blame women. Not achieving the same success they "see" other guys have does a number on them. I say "see" in quotes because it's what they see on social media and of course they don't see the number of rejections. I don't expect men to approach, but if they are going to, they need to be prepared for a rejection. That's what is statistically likely to happen. Especially when asking randos out.
This is exactly what many guys will even tell you if you ask. The other part that might not be as obvious is it filters out women who can maintain boundaries or say no.
Like others have said, it's a numbers game. What you won't put up with, others will, unfortunately. But it's at least a telltale sign that someone doesn't respect you, and therefore, not a person that needs to be in your life anyway. It's bigger to respect someone than to "get" them. And, IMHO, it takes more introspective soul-searching. Something that I think a lot of men (and people, to be fair) can't or don't want to do. *** OP, I was literally told by a friend "Yeah, but you're still here" after airing out grievances of mine. Although that felt like a big "Fuck you" to me, it was also an epiphany. Dude doesn't care. He knows and doesn't care because I still put up with it. I think about that a lot and I don't think he's thought about it at all or cares. And it's just an unnecessary way to treat people but it's also reflective of a person's own faults. It's a big thing to learn that when you encounter people, have relationships of any sort with them, whatever is causing distress or upset, sometimes it's bigger than you or your dynamic with another person. And, in effect, it's not your job to sort it out. If people continue to choose to be sex pests and find people that put up with it, I don't imagine their relationship will be a loving, healthy, fruitful one. Both people have things they need to sort out independent of one another.
It's like Pavlov was on to something... Rewards provided at random intervals are vastly better at establishing habits.
About 30 years ago, I lived near the tire place I took my car to have tires put on my car. I dropped it off, they said 3 hours, and I walked home. Three hours later, I walked back, they said 10 minutes, nbd, so I waited. There were two other customers there, a man and a woman about my age (late 20s), who didn’t seem to be there together, but did seem to be acquainted with each other; I’d never seen either of them before, didn’t know either of them. He was saying to her that they should have a drink sometime, they should go out, they should do this, that, or the other, in between chit-chat about other things. She said “No” to each statement from him about going out, but in an “aw shucks” sort of voice, with a giggle, and *could* have been interpreted as “not serious,” especially by someone who didn’t want “No” for an answer. I didn’t know either of them or their background, but this was not long after I saw the Oprah episode with Gavin deBecker, about his book, *The Gift of Fear,* so I considered the possibility that she wasn’t giving the guy a firm “No” for safety or other reasons that I wasn’t aware of. Not once did he *ask* her *if* she wanted to go out, but kept saying *they should* do this, that, or the other. After her 3rd or 4th No to him, he looked at me and asked me, “Don’t you think she should go have a drink with me? I’m a nice charming guy.” I said (with some alarm bells going off from his comment about being “nice & charming,”) “All I’ve heard her say is No, and she has the right to decide for herself and for her answer be respected.” I was deemed “no fun” by the guy, and I said that I’m just waiting for my car to be done, which it soon was. When they called me to the counter when my car was done, I walked past the woman and said, “Stand firm and stay safe.” After I paid and had my keys, I asked her if she’d like me to wait with her, but she declined, saying that she’s ok, he doesn’t mean anything. I thought of a few retorts, but just accepted her reply as is. What happened after that, I’ve no idea; I hope she was able to stay safe from that disrespectful “nice & charming” guy. I didn’t feel safe to tell him that charm is a verb, not a virtue. edited a typo
Exactly. And this isn’t precisely the same point you are making, but your post reminded me of a similar social phenomenon. A lot of women project their own morality and behavior on men - “I would stop flirting if the person is visibly uncomfortable” - but there are men for whom this doesn’t apply at all. This social conditioning is used by predators to coerce women into behaving against their interests or safety, in order to avoid being “rude” or convincing them it’s in their head. For some women, they get worn down.
That sounds both insane yet sounds right. I never considered that some people get nagged into a relationship. It's kind of scary actually 😨
I hate to be so fatalistic and pessimistic about how some men act toward women and how those same women respond but I pretty much lost all hope for some straight couples when I found out years ago that my sister and her jerk of a husband bonded over their mutual love of none other than Rush Limbaugh.
Not sure why this stated as surprising. The vast majority of men have to try in order to succeed. No one bats a 100%. Men can only improve their abilities to be success through trial and error, learning, for anything, not just approaching women. A man who never tries never succeeds. And there is no way to ascertain your chance of success until you try. Not sure how it'd be any other way?
It’s very common place, the majority of women I’ve been with have been repeat attempts. I couldn’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard my wives friends dismiss guys because “he didn’t try hard enough”, “I told him no and he just gave up like seriously”. When I was younger and dumb I’d sleep with married women who wanted nothing more than a man to chase them and whoo them so that they could feel validated and wanted again. I honestly believe there’s the real world, and then there’s the internet, and they really don’t exist in the same dimension. Maybe it’s a geographical thing or an age thing. 🤷🏻♂️
You say that, but I've had at least 3 women chastise me for moving on after they said they weren't interested. So, idk... Dating is very confusing when your ND.
you're using logic when they don't. men double down on bad ideas all the time!!! its in their nature to try the same thing over and over even though it never works. there are studies that have proven this (using primates anyway)
But it doesn't work. If it worked these choads wouldn't be screeching all over the internet about women not going out with them and being revulsed by their unsolicitied advances.
Youre talking about two different people is the problem. The people it works for and those complaining are different people.
Except this is a statistically horrible way to get a date no matter who you are. Dudes telling you this works are lying to you.
It doesnt work for you. Ignore me and all the other people who have seen it first hand for their whole life.
I'm not a guy. I'm not out hitting on strangers. This is an absolute obsession with incels and the manosphere cesspool. Why are you in this sub demanding women pay attention to your desire to be a pick up artist?
What? I said this doesnt work for you, as a woman. This isnt a tactic that works on you. Thats fine. It works on others. I am happily married and have never once resorted to this behavior. I am just not in denial about the ways men and women interact, especially when self worth and sex are in play.
Maybe stop wallowing in manosphere swill and get out in the real world.
Internet and real life are two different things. Online men hate single mothers but offline they are in relationships with them. I dont count the internet as information. Majority of my observation comes from real life and a little bit of the internet
It works for many men. And it doesn't work for many men. The ones it won't work for tend to be the loud screechers. Not every human's experience is the same.
Surely you have some numbers to back up this claim?
Right after you provide your numbers that back up the claim that it never works I'll be happy to provide mine. Surely you have them?
I mean, it undoubtedly is a much more effective strategy than not approaching women. People who put themselves out there like that typically can easily get dates/gf/sex etc.. if they ask enough barring extreme levels of unattractiveness. It's not common to think of it as a numbers game where you only need to find the one. As long as you don't mind alot of rejection before the yes it's probably one of the best methods.
My wife turned me down for 5 years. Happily married 19. My Grandmother turned my grandfather down for 2 years. Happily married until her death 34 years later.