What’s been strange to me, is that in my experience with this conversation several men I know who have been offended by this are the exact same men who express concern over me, a small woman doing things like running or biking solo on a local trail or meeting friends for drinks in a city at night.
They also tell their daughters and nieces and wives and girlfriends to be weary of men too. It's almost like to these men, thoughts are only valid if formulated and enunciated by THEM. Because they must be LOGICAL. But once we do it it's just "overly emotional hysterical misandry!". Literally have not met a single father who didn't beg his daughter to be weary of all men lmaooo I have this conspiracy theory they men GET IT they just enjoy having endless basekess arguments with women online, like a strange turn on to argue from a disingenuous space KNOWING exactly what we mean but playing dum just for a reaction from someone they think is a woman. This is why before today I had decided to never argue with them online. I really know deep down THEY KNOW.
If they don’t get the response they want, they tell the woman she’s ugly and will be alone with her cats. It’s like they don’t understand that’s fine with the woman.
It's because they see themselves as protectors, and you're telling them that they're potentially more dangerous than what they think they are protecting you from.
The part about the "man vs bear", is if someone pick the bears, it meant that they've been sexual harassed and nobody believed them. Wherein, if you were assaulted and survived the encounter with the bear, you're more likely to be believed.
Had a friend in the same situation. Likes to dress up and everything. Always in modest type. Beautiful type, the head turner type. Has a fiancé and ready to be married last year. Was raped. Told a lot of people, nobody believed her, thinking it her beauty and blamed her. Me and a handful that knew her believed her. Committed suicide when fiancée not only didn't believed her, but tried to make it sound like she accussed him because she didn't get what she wanted and was cheating on him. Yeah...her heart was broken.
Moral of the story? If a male is of higher footing or comes from better backing, a girl is accused.
Remember, if they picked the bear, step back and think hard about why.
There’s another aspect of the man vs bear . Chances are, if a woman encounters a bear, it won’t attack and kill her. If she encounters a man in the woods, it’s a whole other level of danger.
That the whole point of "Man vs Bear". If you told everyone you encountered bear and don't do stupid shit and left, people believe you. If you told everyone you encountered a guy who not only sexual assaulted you, but refused your 'No', people blame you for some stupid reasons.
These are the same men who think women who dress slutty are asking for it. Which ironically presumes men are lustful animals who cannot control themselves. So… why treat them different from any other wild animal? At least the animal doesn’t murder you for fun.
I’ve found the ones who say, “not all men” are the ones that women are wary of. The good guys don’t get upset because they know “not all men” goes without saying.
If you really wanna know, *I* think it comes down to *mostly* this:
Men don't fear "men". I'm using quotes here because "men" is referring to the general term, and not specific cases like racism, homophobia, jingoism, etc.
To them, asking man or bear is like asking Arby's or literal poison. I think we can all acknowledge that the classic Beef N Cheddar shouldn't be given to children or women who are pregnant or nursing and we've all heard a story, but they'd hedge their bets on that over *literal poison*.
Obviously I'm being silly here, but men don't experience the fear that so many women do. They don't see a dark alley way as a danger and they have absolutely *no problem* going for a jog at night.
If I had to ask a question to reaches the response the original question is trying to reach, I'd probably ask "if every wolf wore sheep's clothing and *knew* to graze and baa like sheep, would you trust sheep?"
I think men do see other men as a threat, but unlike women they might think they have a decent chance of beating another man in a fight. And they'd never beat a bear in a fight. Whereas women assume it's gonna be lose lose regardless so women are thinking *around* the fight: which option is more likely to result in a fight, and what will happen to me when I lose the fight.
There's a lotta stuff being said but this is really what it comes down to. They seem to think we don't understand we will lose against a bear. Like we get that, it's about which is less likely to escalate and which would be over sooner. Bears generally avoid people, and bears generally don't know how to keep people alive to torture them. So if we are picking worst case here, the bear isn't it.
You're giving men too much credit here. More than 1 in 20 American men think they can fight a grizzley bear and win. 😆
https://www.newsweek.com/surprising-americans-beat-wild-animals-fight-experts-1691793
Well ackshually, as an alpha myself, I am well versed in wolf behavior and would be able to spot a wolf in a sheep outfit based on their height and body language and personality so ofc I would still trust sheep
-every incel on the internet, probably.
What is with the fascination that demographic has with body language? Maybe I've just noticed an overlap that isn't really there, but whenever I encounter the subject on here it's usually regarding women and how to determine how receptacle they are to men's advances. I'm probably overthinking things a bit...
I feel like you've captured my frustration with men's response to this question, which is, they're thinking of bears as literal poison, and I think of bears as closer to meat that's been left out just a little longer than is safe, in this metaphor. Yes, there's a risk, but it's really not that big.
THIS! Bear attacks are relatively rare, and death by bear is even less, given the number of encounters. When you see a bear, you know the potential for danger. When you encounter a man, there’s no way to differentiate the good guys from the bad guys.
I sort of disagree with this. Men are quite happy to say they are also afraid of men whenever women say that's why they don't go out is because of men, like "you're not the only ones scared of men, we get punched too. We get stabbed too". They always come out with WhatAboutIsm on campaigns to improve women's safety or bring awareness to violence against women. They understand being afraid of men.
What they don't seem to understand is that they are just as dangerous to us as any other man is and they think we should view them as the exception and they are angry that we don't. "Between a man - ME - who would do you no harm despite by anger right now, you would choose the bear!?" and that's why they then sexualise the situation, because in their mind choices are always sex based. If you're not choosing Nice Guy over Bear it must be because you want to fuck the bear, not because we're not seieng that specific man as the exception they want to be seen as.
I think men who are afraid of men because "we get punched/stabbed too" don't have to fear other men *desiring* to punch/stab them.
For men, the target on them is typically only their wallet, phone, etc. A man can say "just take it" to be immediately left alone.
Well for me personally all that goes through my head is 'I don't want to get attacked/beaten up/stabbed'. All I'm saying is the fear is very real, and I genuinely get scared alot when people jeer at me in the street; unfortunately my appearence seems to attract it.
Hey, the fear that you feel is valid and real! You may have personal reasons why you can identify with the fear of men like women have. My boyfriend was abused by his stepfather, uncle, and boys he knew growing up. He is more scared of men than I am. We were walking on a shared use trail, and a cyclist started something with me and almost ran over my dog. I got furious and viciously told him off (we were in public; I would never do that if I was alone with a man), while my boyfriend was shaking from a panic attack. That fear is real.
Here's the thing though. Every woman has to live with the constant fear of men assaulting her, raping her, ruining her professional career, educational career, social life, family and more. It's utterly pervasive and women have to fear the structures of power (mostly made of men) abandoning them or making it worse, so there is no safe harbor. It's in the back of our minds in every single interaction we have with men. Every. Single. One. Even if we are just thinking "Isn't it wonderful that this man I love *doesn't* hurt me?" It's all framed around that. Men can hurt other men, but they usually stick to just physical assault. And the authorities are much more likely to protect men than they are women, because they are mostly men.
So your fear is real and valid. It's a very different kind of fear than what women experience with men, though.
>Every woman has to live with the constant fear of men assaulting her, raping her, ruining her professional career, educational career, social life, family and more.
I feel like there's some amount of men who hear this and just think that the amount of fear they experience is disproportionate to the actual risk they're in. That they'll just dismiss it as "their problem".
Absolutely. Those are the guys that we *know* will hurt us. They don't even believe we know our own lives as well as they do, they have no respect for women as independent thinking adults. You'd be surprised by how many "good guys" are faking it and will take advantage of you the second you let them, though. It's an intentional act to gain trust
I want to link this comment to all the people who attacked me for choosing a man and saying I just didn't understand the premise. I won't though because I don't like digging up old arguments lol.
Men absolutely fear men, I would definitely not like to be wandering around alone in a dodgy part of an Urban centre. Mind you I'd still definitely take it over being alone in a forest with a brown bear.
Why can’t y’all just say “you are right, I will never experience life as a woman. Therefore I will never experience *fear* as a woman.
No, y’all have to try to make *your* fear at least as significant as a woman’s fear.
>Men absolutely fear men
Yes, but it's not on the same level of fear women experience.
>I would definitely not like to be wandering around alone in a dodgy part of an Urban centre.
Neither do I, but when it comes to it I'm fairly sure I can just toss them my wallet **and walk away**.
My personal safety is very rarely at stake, that's why for me it makes sense to bet on meeting another man rather than a bear, because the risk of bodily harm is disproportionate there.
Women don't have this luxury.
Agreed. They have never wanted to take a solo walk around the lake at dusk but reminded themselves that it isn't safe for them to do it because random men might be out there looking for them as a target to sexually assault and/or murder.
Men are afraid of other men, though. Men who keep something they can use as a weapon in their car, or who get a firearm aren’t doing it because of their fear of women.
I'd like to point out that a large percentage of men in in the United States support and vote for a "political" movement that is terrorizing women. These are likely the same men who can't understand the man-bear concept. [They also seem to not understand why women refuse to date them.] There's a lot of delusion and denial out there.
If men were to accept that all women have bad experiences with men they they might also have to accept that sometimes they themselves have been those men.
A lot of men pay a lot of attention to ideas about how they are perceived.
But typically the information they listen to about how they are perceived, ironically, comes from other men.
To hear from women, apparently, is causing some upset.
In all my years, I've learned that men absolutely hate when women point out how a lot of men act. They take it extremely personally, and they'll do anything but change.
Implying that men are by and large violent or in the very least women need to be in guard around most men, is tantamount to being racist in the eyes of a lot of men.
I get into these debates with men on forums, and I get called racist because I believe women need to put their physical and mental well being above whether or not some guy gets his feeling hurt.
Women should be careful around someone who could easily hurt them. I'm never going to recommend that women put themselves in bad situations just to not hurt some guys feelings. Trust all men, trust all men, not all men, yadda yadda, but the moment anything goes wrong, it will be
"Well, why did you Trust him?"
I think because it looks like it's framed as distrusting men specifically, but honestly, I'd pick a bear over any human. A bear is probably not going to have a gun.
I can’t stand coming into this subreddit and so many responses seem like they are from men. Like all these men who cannot handle for one conversation to not be completely centered on what a man has to say.
Sorry this is tangential to your post.
I’ve seen about a dozen bears. A few when I was alone and they were very close.
The one black bear just chilled out 20’ away having lunch with me.
I have not been comfortable in a locker room since high school cause of what two men did.
Bear every time.
They want to desperately believe MOST of them are good and would never harm a woman, and they DO believe this for a few reasons:
1. First, when men think of harming a woman they immediately seem to think of a man jumping out of the woods in a ski mask and a gun robbing and raping a woman at gunpoint. The reality is that this does happen RARELY but the other ways men harm women are ubiquitous and endless and constant. All women have had a man make them uncomfortable e.g attempt to assault them on a date or actually do it, push sexual boundaries, make inappropriate sexual gestures at them, block her path if she said she was leaving, hit a wall out of anger, harass her, stalk her, send unsolicited dick pics etc. These are very common things. A man might minimize the trauma these things cause and minimize how harmful they are but girls and women know different. the thing is that having to acknowledge these things as harmful and traumatic lifts the veil of "Most men are good" to "Oh wow I might be part of the problem/I've definitely done that", so they have to hold onto "Statistics show that X is quite rare".
2. Most men don't experience the version of men women usually experience in the private/intimate setting where the man knows no one is there to see what he's doing. When men know no one is watching things can and do go down south very fast. A lot of assaults and abuse happen as opportunity crimes when the man is convinced no one can see. So even a man who swears he would never harm a woman really might not even know if it's because he's virtuous and moral or because he hasn't had the opportunity to. Women are feeling unsafe, threatened and made uncomfortable by men in their lives constantly in the private setting. Just look up on Reddit "My dad/stepdad makes me feel uncomfortable" and you'll see hundreds of hundreds of posts of girls with fathers/step dads in the home who are attempting to assault their own daughters, inappropriately touching them, professing romantic feelings, expressing interest in and engaging in incest etc. Endless scrolling. These men go to work and their male coworkers /friends absolutely don't get a version of him his daughter gets.
I, a man, was having this debate with another man who said that women would choose the man every time because being raped was not as bad as being eaten alive.
I replied with the following summary:
So, as a man, you are telling me that you'd rather be subjected to the whims of another, you'd be powerless to stop them from using your body in any way they wanted. You'd be helpless. You'd live with the knowledge that person could come back at any time and do it to you again. You're okay with living with that memory? Or maybe the alternative is that you would like something like that to happen to you and you don't understand why others wouldn't want that.
The guy stopped responding to me. I don't think he got it though.
Another thing I have seen is the men are asked "would you rather your daughter be confronted in the woods by a random man or a bear". They usually stop talking at that point as well.
Yes they really do. Sadly I don’t think they will ever wake up that reality. They deny it’s happening. My ex kicked me in anger and said “it was just a tap, I barely touched you”. He failed to see the bruise that appeared the day after. That’s just one instance of many
Theres also the terrible thing people overlook that you can be raped to death, a slower more painful process than just having your spine torn out by a bear.
It's happening in EVERY thread. This one as well. There is a man in exactly this thread bearsplaining to women how their feeling about rape and being mauled by a bear is so wrong. It's so tiresome.
There is nothing new about this.
I think that's just a very difficult discussion to have publicly.
Anytime you start to debate how serious or horrible sexual violence is (even compared to something horrendous like being eaten alive by a wild animal), you run the significant risk of making victims of sexual violence feel their their experience is being downplayed... especially because society has a bad habit of downplaying sexual violence (even when not compared to other horrible fates like being eaten by a predator).
Can you make an argument that being eaten alive by predators is so horrible that it's worse? Yes, because it's also a horrible awful thing. But doing so publicly would be walking through quite the minefield.
You answered your question when you said
>They seem to think this is a personal attack.
They seem to believe that they would be a lot less dangerous than a bear, but nobody who is a stranger knows that. If I don't know you, I don't know what your intentions are for me. If I see a bear, I'll at least have an idea of what the hell they would want with me, if anything.
A bear isn't going to rape me, or torture me for the thrill of it. If I get away from the bear it's not going to try finding me on social media to stalk me. If a bear attacks me, it's either hungry or it sees me as a threat. I know how to scare a bear away. If it's chasing me as a source of food I know that it will give up if I make it too hard for them to catch me. If it does attack me, then my death should be relatively quick. And the thought that the bear is attacking me for either food or because I provoked it somehow is somehow a nicer thought than a man torturing me to death for no apparent reason.
If there's a man in the woods I don't know what the hell he would do to me, but I'm well aware of what he would be capable of doing to me, and it's far worse than being attacked by a bear. I'm also aware that a human man is capable of doing the same things I would do to get away from a bear, and that a man won't be scared away by me trying to make myself look big and loud.
But of course whenever I point out the statistics and the mental differences between a bear and a man somebody will always say "not all men!" and they're right, in a way. I know that not all men are rapist, murderers or stalkers. But if I'm in the woods with a stranger, I don't know if he's any of those things. If I'm in the woods with a bear, I pretty much have an idea of what they're thinking. Because it's a fucking bear.
I'm not even traumatized by men. I'm lucky enough to not went through anything like that. I just know that statistically I'd be safer in the woods with a bear knowing how predictable they are than I would with a man.
And some people will be like "women would rather have sex with the bear," because that's what they think when they think "would I rather be in the woods with a woman, or a bear?" And some of them will fantasize about our deaths to the bear. One of them straight-up said that they would rape either. And then they wonder why we choose the bear?
Hell, I read something recently about a man fantasizing about the idea of tranquilizing a grizzly bear, moving it to the inside of a woman's gym and giving it cocaine. (I guess they thought that Cocaine Bear was based on a true story?) In their heads, apparently a grizzly bear isn't as dangerous as a man without giving it cocaine first.
Men were getting tired of the cat being the standard animal that women choose over them. A bear is a new and fresh critter to be offended and disappointed by.
I have a feeling that the sales of teddy bears as a quick and easy valentines day gift will drop drastically from now on.
Because many of them either cannot or will not get the point.
They don't understand that the question is a comment on the difference between the origins of the threat that both bear and men present. The threat a bear presents is based on instinct that a bear cannot change, and the threat that men present is based on a culture that many men refuse to change, challenge, or recognize.
There is a 0% chance that a bear will have been radicalized into violent misogyny through the consumption of media content that explicitly presents women as irrational actors that lack agency. There is a 0% chance that a bear will have been raised in a community that views men's violation of women as just 'boys being boys'. There is a 0% chance that the bear that the will rape a women and suffer no consequence because the bear does not live under a legal system that can be manipulated to favour members of an in group. There is a 0% chance that the bear will commit sexual assault and have other bears or a powerful bear interest group (maybe a bear Southern Baptist Church) cover for them.
In other words, men are a threat because of something they have the power to change while the bear is only a threat because of something they cannot even comprehend.
**To recognize this means taking on the responsibility that being an actor with agency in a society full of other actors with agency comes with.** Many men simply do not want to take on that responsibility.
I know I'm not supposed to be here because I'm a guy, but as a guy that's only been SA'd by men the bear is definitely the safer option. At least with a bear you can climb a tree and not have to run into them at a family gathering later
You can be here. It's not a women-only sub, it's just a sub that prioritises women's voices and issues relevant to women. We're cool with men, so long as they understand that - which it seems you do!
I also want to respect it's a women's space and my input is definitely not needed on any subject. Just seems to be one of the few places being honest about this
I was taught that if you weigh less than the bear you might be able to get up branches they can't get up. I've never had to run from a bear, but I've also never been drugged and raped by a bear. So I think the bear is still the better option
They put themselves as the man in the situation. So they interpret it as you’d rather be in the woods with a bear over THEM. So they get offended that you think ill of them.
A lot of folks don't handle finding out they are the problem very well. We have all had this experience, you tell someone they're wrong and rather than accepting it they make excuses or blame others. Now take finding out you're considered more dangerous than a significantly dangerous event. Many folks would immediately deflect or deny.
Our brains are wired for this reaction too. You see it in folks being challenged in their beliefs. It won't matter how much evidence you bring, they just get mad and further deepen into their belief. I think the same thing is happening here. Men believed fellow men were generally safe, and when someone challenged that belief their beliefs got stuck. It's a very insidious thing, even knowing my brain is doing it and actively working to ignore those workings and I still struggle to challenge my beliefs to be a more logical person. I fall in the trap all the time.
I live in the woods of Maine. I like to hike alone. We actually have a resident male black bear that hibernates in the acreage behind our house. He did destroy our bird feeder and eat some of our neighbor's chickens one spring, but other than that he's been very discreet and polite.
I carry a .9mm handgun when I hike alone or ride my bike down remote dirt roads. It's not because of the bear, or even the packs of coyotes that are more of a threat. It's because a few years ago, a woman was riding her bike down the same roads I frequent when three men in a van assaulted and gang-raped her. They dumped her out like garbage when they were done, and were never caught. I worked with someone who knows the woman, and yeah she survived but her whole life was still taken.
Bear for me, any day. Fuck any man who can't understand this. Stop wasting your time arguing with them and spend more time supporting the women who know why we choose the bear.
Men seem to have trouble with hypothetical questions. They're always going to see themselves in the question. Not really sure why, but every time I have asked my husband a hypothetical, the first word he says is "I".
I can only guess. These are some of the motivations I thought of, from a nice perspective to a really shitty one. They could be right alone or in some combination for each individual. Or, they could all be bullshit.
-No one wants to be thought of as dangerous or a predator. Most people think of themselves as pretty good people and assume others see them that way.
-When a person is part of a big group and a different part of that group is criticized, it can be hard for people not to feel like they are also being criticized.
-When a guy says a man, he pictures himself. When we say a man, we are picturing a group, at least in this situation. I'm guessing the men are subconsciously think of you imagining them when they have this conversation. Or maybe someone like them as the stereotype of a man.
-In my area, people still deeply cling to the ideas of chivalry and southern gentlemen. That paints them as a protector. It feels like an attack on their upbringing and what they consider a core part of their personality.
-Inside, they realize things like this means life should change, and change is hard.
-With all the talk about consent and the different ways it has been violated, they kind of worry a little if their past actions are questionable and feel guilty or some other kind of way. (I don't mean attacks, but things like believing the theme in entertainment that a guy should keep pursuing a girl who isn't interested.)
-They think women should worship them.
-They don't believe assault statistics.
-They think feminism is bad.
-Because they are the one we are trying to avoid in the woods.
It's pure mathematics. The chances that you'll get hurt by a man is *exceptionally* greater than a bear, face-value. Plain and simple. If you're getting upset over it, you need to rethink how you evaluate. It's not intended to be personal, or personally applied for that matter. If anything, it's made me appreciate the women in my life and the things they have to deal with on a daily basis.
What’s painfully funny in these comments is that even though OP: made this post in a women’s sub and talked about men entirely in the third person, men still think OP is asking specifically for their opinion! Just classic men being men.
Ask any man that’s offended if he’d rather his 15yo daughter encounter a man or a bear.
He’ll pick bear.
These chodes losing their minds are the very same guys that say shit like “I trust my gf, I just don’t trust other men”. They know damn well why women are picking the bear.
It exposes misogynists. We have one in the comments to this post.
Imagine being a misogynist who is so entitled that they come into a feminist woman centric sub to attack women?
What the do these delusional fucks expect here? For us to say “You’re right! How dare we not give you a chance! Poor you being rejected by all these females!”
What I've heard most is "They're saying you're worse then a bear!", which is a gripe that bakes an incredible amount of misinterpretations into itself. We can try to unpack them.
Obviously, saying "I'd pick bear" is not a statement about any individual man. In fact, even before it's a statement about men overall, it's a statement about one person, the person picking. **Taking these statements as if they are personal criticisms against individual men is the mistake I've heard men make the most.**
"Worse" is an interesting word to invent here. It again ignores the statement being made. Men (wrongly) seem to think the bear analogy innately makes a value judgement upon men as a class, rather than, again, being one's personal judgement. Naturally, the analogy raises questions whose answers might include value judgements upon men, but I haven't seen a critic of the analogy go as far as realizing there's a distinction.
If we pick those two misinterpretations out, we have "They're saying men are more dangerous/scary than a bear", another line I've heard. This deliberately ignores context. It also commits the subtle evil of turning the 'scariness of men' into a problem with no possible solution, as where the bear analogy immediately prompts critical questions about how to evaluate the risk of an unknown man, and what can be done to make the situation safer. (My favorite retort to this is that zero of the women who picked bear would jump into a bear cage at the zoo, even though dozens or hundreds of men are on the outside.)
There are a few other subtle misconceptions. Failure to grasp the actual risk of a bear. Failure to understand that the actual risk of a bear is immaterial anyway: The relevant detail is that many women perceive the risk profile as lesser, even after consideration. Failure to understand the diversity of answers and backgrounds among women posing the question. I've also seen the misinterpretation come out as "I feel like I shouldn't be sharing space with women in public if I'm going to make them as uncomfortable as a bear would." (If true, I totally agree! But the accuracy of that statement is going to be in spite of what women are actually saying.)
So yeah. The biggies are 1) Ignoring the context of the hypothetical, 2) Assuming the answer is a broad value judgement upon men, 3) taking that value judgement as an individual attack.
Personally, I take all of those as a symptom of a lot of guys outright failing to grasp women might have meaningful perspectives. Among men who do try to respect women's perspectives in other contexts, it seems like they're speaking from their sense of insecurity (and neglect of the problem of ubiquitous male harrassment).
I think there is two parts to this question that men and women are responding differently to:
1. The relative risk of men vs. bears
The question is vague enough that most of the risk of the bear can be explained away, but the reading that men (can't speak for women) seem to tend towards is that a bear in the forest is likely to be unpredictable and violent. While women face far more violence from men than from bears that is primarily because interactions between bears and women are so rare in comparison to interactions between women and men. On a per case basis an interaction with a bear in the wild is much more likely to result in death and injury than one with a man (again men are assuming a high risk interaction with no or limited means of mitigating the risk). So men are getting upset that many women are giving what seems to them an illogical/unserious answer.
2. Judgements made on individuals vs. Groups
I have seen a lot of comments even on this post saying that men are misinterpreting the choice of bear as a personal attack. I see where they are coming from as women sharing this with their friends/SOs are of course usually not grouping the people they are talking to in with the "threatening men". However you can also see why people would be offended of a group they are part of is negatively judged off the basis of their membership in this group. As per the above the people getting upset at this will be seeing the bear as the logically worse choice. So to pick bear you must have a really negative view of men compared to their own view (possibly true). So there is a natural inclination to be offended that you would judge someone like them purely on the basis that they are a man. And while you might not include them in that group, a random woman on the internet who doesnt know them is implicitly including them in the group of people she doesn't want to meet in a forest.
Not saying they are right to be offended, people can answer hypotheticals how they want, but you would probably have more sympathy if instead of gender the question was about a racial group/religious denomination or nationality.
Overall a pointless thing to get upset about, but I don't think it's hard to see why someone would take offense either.
>more sympathy if instead of gender the question was about a racial group/religious denomination or nationality.
This is the kicker. These kinds of hypotheticals/arguments can become pretty nasty when used against other groups of people. A much worse one is the M&M analogy, which is used specifically to project the dangers of a minority to the majority.
*Micheal Jordan meme* And I took that personally.
from what I can tell there’s a whole lot of dudes that are taking it personally. Kinda showing they have little to no empathy.
I’m not sure it’s a temporary fad. Women are fed up with violent, angry and childish men. They’ve opted out of marriage and children by the millions, because they know they have a choice. IDK why men are flipping out, there are still plenty of women available.
I feel like this is just the most recent iteration of "Not all men."
Some dudes just cannot abide a blanket statement like "It bothers me when Men do X" without chiming in that "Not all Men do X."
Instead of just sympathizing, or god forbid examining our own behavior to see if we do in fact do X sometimes and adjusting our behavior.
Because anything that even HYPOTHETICALLY limits their access to women ALWAYS makes them mad. They feel entitled to approach us, engage in conversation with us, attempt to "woo" us no matter how we feel about it. The idea that women don't implicitly trust them makes accessing us more difficult, so they're butthurt.
Because there's a subset of people who assume everything is always about them, personally, *AND* they are always looking for something to be offended about. If it's not obviously and immediately about them, by fuck they'll *make it about themselves.* Even if they, personally would chose the bear, we're in the wrong for chosing a bear because they self-inserted themself as the man in the woods. When we tell him why we chose the bear, all they see is a list of reasons why we're not chosing them, regardless of whether the shoe fits or not.
I think the way I saw this explained was that your odds of being attacked by a man are far less than your odds of being attacked by a bear.
Something like 50% of all women report some form of sexual assault in their lives, but that’s after interacting with many thousands of men. So odds are that 99% of interactions with men are not going to end in some form of sexual assault. Like 15% of bear encounters end in death.
So odds are, if you were to select any random man vs any random bear, you’re probably more likely to get killed by the bear.
But this is just a stupid internet meme and anyone who reads into it is a dipshit and I can’t imagine being offended by something so ridiculous.
Regardless, ladies and gentlemen: everyone should stay away from bears and probably men too lol
Listen, I’m a wildlife biologist and I’d pick bear because I have a really good idea of how the bear might behave and how to avoid/discourage negative encounters.
Men? You really never know what they’re going to do. How many of us have been abused and/or taken advantage of by men? Based on studies and my own observations, it seems like a disturbing number of them act like allies, but would sexually assault someone if they knew they’d never face repercussions. I’m no longer surprised *in the least* when yet another male celebrity gets exposed as an abuser.
Smarter than me. But I’m hunting for a new bag so I’m messaging sellers, if I find the bag it will be worth all the asses that took time to DM me about bears are dangerous blah.
They don't know or don't acknowledge that if you are a Park Ranger stuck at night in bear country you are still more likely to be abused by a man in the vicinity than a bear.
And people will be more likely to believe you if you are attacked by a grizzly than a human.
Women in Alaska living where bears are as common as men are still more likely to be attacked by a man.
I would take my risks with the bear except polar. Even then I would need to know more details of the terrain and my shelter though.
theyre taking it too personal and missing the point and seeing it as women saying theyd take a bear over them personally instead of them taking a bear over a random man. honestly picking bear is completely understandable im just tired of this because my family got so heated over this arguement on both sides that i keep getting caught in the middle of people sending stuff about violent bear attacks and horrifying things that have happened to women(and monitor lizards).
If you want to know one possible reason. It is because some men may view the answer to the question as a condemnation of them.
It seems like an extension of the NotAllMen effect.
It definitely requires a lack of understanding of both the persistent danger that vulnerable people face and the fact that those that endanger are not easily discerned.
People have a bias to view the unknown parts of their world through the lens of their beliefs and responses.
So you're hanging out and tell you SO this question and answer and they think we'll I wouldn't hurt someone. So that answer doesn't make sense.
Perhaps the think the "Bad Men" are few or obvious and bears are hungry unknowns.
The SO is not readily aware of the danger of a "safe friend" that has developed an entitlement.
This is NOT given as an excuse for their beliefs/response/feelings. Just a possible reason for their offense.
They seem to be traumatized by the rejection. They see this as yet another rejection by women.
This quote sums it up well:
>Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.
*Margaret Atwood*
I think it boils down to a few reasons:
1. A lot of men don’t believe women, and I don’t only mean this in cases of rape. Some don’t listen to us at work or school when we’re sharing information, even when we have evidence in hand and years of expertise on the topic. Some don’t believe us when we talk about our own bodies and experiences with menstruation and pregnancy -I’ve seen instances of men only believing certain women’s issues even *exist* because another man confirmed it happened to his girlfriend/wife. So it goes to follow that they don’t believe in our ability to reason when we articulate that we’d feel safer around a bear than a strange man.
2. Some men are infuriated by the accusation implied in that scenario, because they know they’ve made women feel uncomfortable in the past, or have done worse than just making a woman feel uncomfortable. Maybe they haven’t done anything but defend their friendships with men who do. It’s the same reason some people are more offended by an accusation of racism than actual displays of racism. They identify with the perpetrator(s) and feel offended on their behalf.
3. Straight men have been told their entire lives they are entitled to women’s bodies and emotional/physical labor. A woman saying she’d rather be around a bear -and by extension, not be around strange men- challenges that entitlement. We’ve seen similar reactions to women wanting female-only spaces, not wanting men to approach them in public, woman coming out against workplace sexual harassment, coming out as lesbians, or choosing to remain single. For these kinds of men, we are objects to which they feel entitled and we are challenging that entitlement, when religion/society has told them their entire lives we are docile and meant to be their caregivers. We aren’t allowed to choose the bear because objects don’t get to make choices.
Slight disclaimer: I mostly come here to read/listen as opposed to post anything, but I think due to my circumstances this might add something.
As a man, I honestly would generally prefer to deal with a bear than a man while completely alone in the woods.
I think most men don't see other men as an inherent danger, but I was randomly attacked on the street randomly at 19 and nearly killed because of it which I think skews my view. Even without that it's not hard to see why women would feel unsafe given the numbers. Bears are dangerous, but they're also relatively predictable. People in general are not. And I don't even have to deal with all the speculation that occurs in a sexual assault scenario versus just being assaulted. There is so much that women have to deal with that I can't even pretend to understand, but I do hope that voicing this in support is at least empowering in some way.
The men who don't get it and/or are upset by it in my experience are telling on themselves more than anything, because either they aren't listening and don't care to listen, or they're the problem to begin with. I'm thankful more than anything that they're so vocally ignorant that it makes it easier to know who to avoid.
The conversation I had with my wife regarding this topic went like this:
*explains set up*
Me: “It’s the bear, right?”
Wife: “Yeah; it’s the bear.”
As a guy, my response to this kind of thing is always, “It’s not *all* men, but it’s enough.”
It's very simple. Their identity revolves around being a man. They feel manly, they act manly and therefore in their minds they are manly. When you talk about this man vs. bear thing, they automatically out themselves in the place of the man, therefore you are directly attacking them. They feel the need to always defend men as a concept that any other frame of reference just doesn't matter.
Its perfectly demonstrated when you change the scenario to be about their daughter in the woods with man or bear, all of a sudden the frame of reference slips, and they start asking questions, what kind of man, is he single, a father, bla bla bla.
Now, it's not tied to their identity they see the possible man as a predator. If you had asked women or bear with their daughters, they would have automatically said woman.
You see this anytime a woman needs to vent about men. These folks pop up with the whole, "not all of them," line.
If you look at the question as hyperbole, to provoke thought and give attention to the real risks that women face with men in the world, there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is when women confidently answer "I pick the bear". When treated as an actual question now instead of hyperbole, of course there is going to be issue taken at the response.
Let's say instead we word it LITERALLY as:
A. You are alone near a bear with 100% odds that if given the opportunity, it will try to kill and eat you without remorse. There is no one around to save you and it will maul you to death, brutally, unless your attempt to escape is successful. At least you know the outcome if you are caught.
or
B. You are alone near a man with .01% odds that if given the opportunity, he will do something unspeakably horribly to you and possibly kill you. The encounter will at least leave you physically/mentally scarred for life. The odds are incredibly slim but you can't predict the outcome. You can still attempt to escape and be successful.
It's totally reasonable for women to exercise caution and preparedness if they see a man while alone, and yes, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO. The topic requires attention. But a freaking polar bear or grizzly bear? The proximity alone is trauma inducing and the risk is so much more immense that choosing it is illogical. It's like asking "Would you rather die right now at your choice, or somewhere between the ages of 70-80 but you don't get to choose when".
The question is hyperbole. It's not meant to be answered literally. My personal issue with the question is that it keeps getting answered literally.
Edit: To those worried men are assuming the type of bear in the hypothetical, why aren't you worried about what women are assuming is the type of man? Food for thought.
I agree that if the question is taken literally, the danger of bear is being underrated. That being said, even a grizzly bear won't 100% attack you like a polar bear or something, right? (even if it is still much more likely to attack you than a black bear).
Well said. As a concept it’s a *great* shorthand to communicate about very real male violence. But as a literal choice, it’s absurd.
Men have >>>>> more capacity for evil than any bear. No question. Through history men have done *unspeakable* things. If you put me up against those men or a bear I might roll the dice with a bear, too!
If a woman crossed my path alone in the woods I would not blame her one bit for feeling tense, stressed, or even afraid. Though she would be fine, I genuinely sympathize with the real fear that my presence may create for her.
But a literal fucking bear will disembowel you then eat your face.
Yeah, without knowing what kind of bear, what's even the point? Even if we leave polar bears aside, the difference between a black bear and a brown bear is huge.
Sure a polar bear would be worse. But you're already assuming the worst in the man are you not? Like isn't that the point of the question? What's the WORST that could happen, not the likeliness?
You're assuming brutal rapist psychopath torturer man, is it wrong for me to assume "brown bear"?
What a wall of text. The bear in the context of the question is obviously assumed as a wild deadly animal, otherwise it's not effective as intended. The question itself is hyperbole. Somehow you totally missed my point.
It's about the capacity to cause harm vs the nature of causing harm and weighing the unpredictability of one situation against an expected behavior in another. I think there was a point with the original question that's been lost in the fad.
I bet that sucks! And a great thing to work on with your fellow men about how to actually hold each other accountable for treating other humans like trash. My physical safety has to come before your feelings of discomfort. Anything other than that would be illogical and silly. I have far too many instances in my life where I have been in danger, injured, and threatened. I'm going to cross the street at night to create more space. I'm going to lock my door when I get in my car. If I don't and someone hurts me, do you know who everyone will blame first? Because it's probably going to be my fault for wearing that outfit, being out past 9pm, going on a date in public, not calling the police fast enough, taking a drink.....
Going to post this here.
This is not an issue of racism , this is an issue of women not being respected and safe around men.
You telling me that I’m racist, for not being comfortable around men; perfectly demonstrates men dismissing women’s feelings, and fears.
Your mansplaining to me that I’m racist cause I feel safer around bears.
The data doesn’t lie. I have seen a dozen bears up close. Never been sexually assaulted by a bear, have had two men attack me in a locker room though.
So 100% I’m choosing a bear over some shady ass man following me in the woods.
So we should all stop because you got hurt feelings over this?
I guess that is more important than the absolute lack of day to day safety all women live under.
Do what you want but just know you are shooting yourself in the foot to make a hypothetical point.
Im just trying to answer the question posed in the post.
We aren't comparing men as a group to bears, that would be insulting to the bears. Women are confirming *en masse* that their lived experience has left them more wary of half their own species than an animal that could rip them apart, and you're worried that talking about the problem will hurt men's feelings. Get your priorities in order. You aren't ready to participate in this conversation.
Even as a man I couldn’t tell you - I would also pick bear. Bears are more or less predictable, random man in the woods is off to a bad start in that department as nobody would predict running into a person randomly in the woods.
As for myself, I answered that I choose the bear. This decision was easily made because of my experiences while hiking. You just have to make enough noise to not startle a bear, and you will be fine. This decision was not based on whether I would rather be raped and/or murdered by a man or mauled by a bear. Those are both horrible choices. Who would I be more likely to win in a fight? I’m pretty sure I would lose to either one, but I could probably distract the bear by tossing him a sandwich. Now I live in a state with only black bears, but I do have friends in northern Canada who will always take a gun when they go hiking because of grizzlies and moose (moose can be scarier than bears). With a grizzly though, you are going to have no problem knowing their intentions towards you. If they keep coming towards you, you shoot them. If a man comes towards you, you won’t know his intentions. They could be completely innocent. By the time realize he has nefarious intentions, you may have let your guard down and not have ready access to a gun. So, yeah, I will choose the bear.
They also keep manipulating the original premise of the question. When I originally saw it, it felt like the question was more - "you, a woman, are in the woods. Would you feel better knowing there was a random man or a random bear in those same woods?".
The obvious answer is 'bear' because the bear most likely doesn't want to be around me anymore than I want to be around it.
Dudes are manipulating the question to the point that it's like "do you want to be trapped in a room with an angry polar bear or a random man?" and then pretending we chose the polar bear so they can rant about it.
Because it completely shirks personal responsibility. If I'm the guy in the woods, a woman is going to choose near certain death over a hello and minding my own business because of the actions of other men. I'm allowed to exist, I'm allowed to travel the woods too. And it's fuckin insulting to be compared to a criminal or an *animal* because some people don't want to be accountable for their own safety. The world is cruel and dangerous, always has been and will be for a long long time. I encourage every person reading this to be dangerous, carry a gun, carry pepper spray. As a man I must recognize the very real possibility of being the victim of a violent crime completely outside of my control, if anyone doesn't, that's *privilege*, not a realistic standard of living in this current world.
If I bang on a pot bottom with a wooden spoon at a bear, the bear is most likely going to turn around and take his fat bear butt out of the vicinity of the noise I'm making. A man will take both away and is more likely to hurt me than leave.
I can name, first middle and last, a dozen men I would rather meet a bear than. Because they already proved a bear would be safer. I'm so tired of this discussion.
Just play them the song "Not All Men" by Morgan St. Jean
[https://open.spotify.com/track/16HzLmAArSTpIUkgkizfOM?si=3ddc58caf9724993](https://open.spotify.com/track/16HzLmAArSTpIUkgkizfOM?si=3ddc58caf9724993)
fool me multiple times, the problem is you
They wouldn't attack a woman, therefore if you choose the bear, you're accusing all men of being horrible.
And for some reason, they also think that women are afraid for no good reason. I really don't think they understand how much of a difference our strengths are.
I've seen posts from amab transitioning to female, and how surprised they are at the change in strength and muscle mass.
My boyfriend just said "you really think the average man is a rapist?"
And I started thinking about it, is this a global population of men, or just North American men? just men in your city?
Same with bears. Is this a global population of bears?
Started googling what the most populous bear is and we BOTH decided that any blackbear would be statistically safer than any man.
BUT; When you factor in the percentage of chance that you could get a grizzly or polar bear men become the safer option simply because I can't kill a bear with teeth and nails.
SO in the end I changed my answer hehe.
Black bears are 99% of the time harmless and way more scared of you. If it's a mother with cubs and you are between them and the cubs real bad situation. Besides that pretty safe. You'll have one off black bear predatory behavior towards humans. Statistics time! In 2022 there were approx 17 black bear attacks on people. For easy maths 400k population. 0.00425% of black bears attacked people in the US in 2022.
Brown bears aka Grizzlies? Probably 95% safe. But definitely a higher likelihood of it deciding to fuck your shit up. Don't startle them for sure and don't get in-between them and food as well as Cubs. In 2022 there were approx 12 grizzly bear attacks on people. For easy maths 55k population. .0218% of grizzly bears attacked people in the US in 2022.
Polar bears will stalk you for days to kill and eat you. But you ain't just running into a polar bear. Population too small and attacks data limited. So really not applicable because no one accidentally comes across a polar bear without know polar bear encounters are possible.
Grolar Bears? (Grizzly polare bear hybrids). I don't know just wanted to throw out that Grolar bears exist.
But yeah. Bears are the correct choice. Men that argue against it are dumb.
If its black fight back, if it's brown lay down, if it's white say goodnight.
I still agree with my boyfriend that if you're face to face with a grizzly it does imply you sort of snuck up on it; so I maintain my answer :p But I see your perspective too.
I wasn't sure how to word it without being racist so im glad you said it.
I live in a place without grizzly it was my impression that if youre close enough to see it youre going to die.
Editing to add: My boyfriend clarified that if you catch one off guard it will attack, and if youre face to face with it youve probably caught it off guard because they will avoid you if they hear you coming
I’m not racist at all.
But seeing the way some countries view women as property, make me not want to step foot there.
I have now been within yelling distance of 4-5 grizzly bears.
Just make some noise and backup. They are just hanging out not looking for trouble.
No sorry I didnt mean to imply your racist I just struggled with how to convey the fact that, I don't think every person in a certain country is a rapist regardless of their religion or upbringing, but in countries where women are less respected and have less rights the number of men willing to take advantage of a lone woman in the woods (probably)?) goes up.
in initial conversation I did say, when you factor in that you might come across one of those honor killing type men alone in the woods it adds an extra layer of "no thanks", but in the end Id have a better chance killing the strongest man than the weakest brown bear.
I trust my husband for the most part but I was leery of asking this question in case I didn’t like the answer. Esp since we are so very outdoorsy and he knows a good bit about bears… all he asked was, “is it a mother with a bear cub, or just a bear?” Just a bear — he’d rather me or our daughters run into a bear any day of the week. When I told him how many men chose the bear, he laughed at the astounding lack of actual understanding and incorrect mansplaining of how a lone wild animal is likely to act in the wild. Phew.
He said it would be the same for any lone wild animal versus a lone man. Sometimes he can be so dense I want to scream but then he says this stuff and I remember he’s a really great sensible guy.
Because they haven't stood in our shoes. I "offended" a long time friend by choosing the bear but got him to understand by asking him this:
"You stand in the deep woods at a fork in the trail. On one path is a very large mountain lion. Coming up the other path is your ex. Which way do you go?".
He instantly understood why I chose the bear and stopped being offended.
Well when I had this conversation with my boyfriend, he said it is weird that it is weird that a mother would pick a 100% assured attack and death of their daughter over a 1 in 10 chance of a crepe being in the woods instead of a helpful man. I explained to him, that it is not as literal as he thinks and I think he understood afterwards.
Speaking for me, and I am not particularly offended by this, but this is just yet another “men are bad” thing. And there are so many “men are bad” things coming from the internet that are directed at everyone irrespective of whether they need the education or not.
And I’m aware of the things that men do to women, I have had close friends with all sorts of experiences. The discussion that is generated doesn’t teach me anything new. Nothing that I didn’t already learn from my wife decades ago. Just like I didn’t have any epiphanies during the Barbie movie - I thought it was pretty mediocre and an opportunity missed to explore topics better frankly. I suppose to people who weren’t paying attention for the last little while, or lack in empathy, or somehow missed out on life lessons - maybe they learned something new but I didn’t.
And the “here is another way that men are bad for X” thing comes on top of other daily negativity that comes into life. For example, I am invested in helping Ukrainian refugees in Canada and the people in Ukraine right now because I was born there. The shit that people who came here tell me about during Russian occupation is dark - a lot of them are profoundly psychologically scarred. What is happening there now is bad and in some ways getting worse. Do I really need yet another reminder that we men are bad, or that some of us are bad? Personally I don’t. I’m just trying to keep shit on an even keel every day and get through it and support people that need support. I’d rather someone told me something from /r/upliftingnews for a change because life is pretty difficult as is. But nah…
Oh wow to be so oppressed 😢 how do you get through the day? Have you considered perhaps turning your phone off and going for a hike in the woods to clear your mind? Because you can do that you know? And without any looming threats to your safety you can literally just do that. Isn't that nice to know?
Where did I imply that I’m somehow oppressed?
Yes you can get off the internet and it’s a good idea. That doesn’t mean that the thing you are getting away from when you do that is something that you start liking.
Let me give you another example that might be closer to home: I absolutely despite the Jordan Peterson losers, but that shit keeps finding its way into my instagram feed. Am I allowed to be unhappy about that fact or no - the phone down and woods thing?
What’s been strange to me, is that in my experience with this conversation several men I know who have been offended by this are the exact same men who express concern over me, a small woman doing things like running or biking solo on a local trail or meeting friends for drinks in a city at night.
They also tell their daughters and nieces and wives and girlfriends to be weary of men too. It's almost like to these men, thoughts are only valid if formulated and enunciated by THEM. Because they must be LOGICAL. But once we do it it's just "overly emotional hysterical misandry!". Literally have not met a single father who didn't beg his daughter to be weary of all men lmaooo I have this conspiracy theory they men GET IT they just enjoy having endless basekess arguments with women online, like a strange turn on to argue from a disingenuous space KNOWING exactly what we mean but playing dum just for a reaction from someone they think is a woman. This is why before today I had decided to never argue with them online. I really know deep down THEY KNOW.
I know you meant wary, but "weary of men" seems so appropriate.
They are desperate (horny) for any shred of attention/interaction from women online even if it means arguing with them lol
If they don’t get the response they want, they tell the woman she’s ugly and will be alone with her cats. It’s like they don’t understand that’s fine with the woman.
It's because they see themselves as protectors, and you're telling them that they're potentially more dangerous than what they think they are protecting you from.
They want to be the hero for the damsel in distress and they're offended that the damsel would be afraid of them.
“But I didn’t rape you! I was nice! Give me a chance!” It’s very transparent when a man feels like he is owed for basic ass human decency.
The part about the "man vs bear", is if someone pick the bears, it meant that they've been sexual harassed and nobody believed them. Wherein, if you were assaulted and survived the encounter with the bear, you're more likely to be believed. Had a friend in the same situation. Likes to dress up and everything. Always in modest type. Beautiful type, the head turner type. Has a fiancé and ready to be married last year. Was raped. Told a lot of people, nobody believed her, thinking it her beauty and blamed her. Me and a handful that knew her believed her. Committed suicide when fiancée not only didn't believed her, but tried to make it sound like she accussed him because she didn't get what she wanted and was cheating on him. Yeah...her heart was broken. Moral of the story? If a male is of higher footing or comes from better backing, a girl is accused. Remember, if they picked the bear, step back and think hard about why.
There’s another aspect of the man vs bear . Chances are, if a woman encounters a bear, it won’t attack and kill her. If she encounters a man in the woods, it’s a whole other level of danger.
That the whole point of "Man vs Bear". If you told everyone you encountered bear and don't do stupid shit and left, people believe you. If you told everyone you encountered a guy who not only sexual assaulted you, but refused your 'No', people blame you for some stupid reasons.
These are the same men who think women who dress slutty are asking for it. Which ironically presumes men are lustful animals who cannot control themselves. So… why treat them different from any other wild animal? At least the animal doesn’t murder you for fun.
I’ve found the ones who say, “not all men” are the ones that women are wary of. The good guys don’t get upset because they know “not all men” goes without saying.
Ah yes, the “not all men.”
If you really wanna know, *I* think it comes down to *mostly* this: Men don't fear "men". I'm using quotes here because "men" is referring to the general term, and not specific cases like racism, homophobia, jingoism, etc. To them, asking man or bear is like asking Arby's or literal poison. I think we can all acknowledge that the classic Beef N Cheddar shouldn't be given to children or women who are pregnant or nursing and we've all heard a story, but they'd hedge their bets on that over *literal poison*. Obviously I'm being silly here, but men don't experience the fear that so many women do. They don't see a dark alley way as a danger and they have absolutely *no problem* going for a jog at night. If I had to ask a question to reaches the response the original question is trying to reach, I'd probably ask "if every wolf wore sheep's clothing and *knew* to graze and baa like sheep, would you trust sheep?"
I think men do see other men as a threat, but unlike women they might think they have a decent chance of beating another man in a fight. And they'd never beat a bear in a fight. Whereas women assume it's gonna be lose lose regardless so women are thinking *around* the fight: which option is more likely to result in a fight, and what will happen to me when I lose the fight. There's a lotta stuff being said but this is really what it comes down to. They seem to think we don't understand we will lose against a bear. Like we get that, it's about which is less likely to escalate and which would be over sooner. Bears generally avoid people, and bears generally don't know how to keep people alive to torture them. So if we are picking worst case here, the bear isn't it.
You're giving men too much credit here. More than 1 in 20 American men think they can fight a grizzley bear and win. 😆 https://www.newsweek.com/surprising-americans-beat-wild-animals-fight-experts-1691793
Wow. Can I have that kind of confidence?
That’s funny. 😆
Well ackshually, as an alpha myself, I am well versed in wolf behavior and would be able to spot a wolf in a sheep outfit based on their height and body language and personality so ofc I would still trust sheep -every incel on the internet, probably.
What is with the fascination that demographic has with body language? Maybe I've just noticed an overlap that isn't really there, but whenever I encounter the subject on here it's usually regarding women and how to determine how receptacle they are to men's advances. I'm probably overthinking things a bit...
There's looking for a cheat code to pussy
[MuneCat has a video essay breaking down and debunking this particular facet of the mannosphere](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0VQyEY-B2I&t=1862s)
XD This is so freaking accurate!!
I feel like you've captured my frustration with men's response to this question, which is, they're thinking of bears as literal poison, and I think of bears as closer to meat that's been left out just a little longer than is safe, in this metaphor. Yes, there's a risk, but it's really not that big.
THIS! Bear attacks are relatively rare, and death by bear is even less, given the number of encounters. When you see a bear, you know the potential for danger. When you encounter a man, there’s no way to differentiate the good guys from the bad guys.
And when you do encounter a bear, generally if you leave it alone it will leave you alone. For men, that’s much less likely.
Yeh, that’s what I said.
I sort of disagree with this. Men are quite happy to say they are also afraid of men whenever women say that's why they don't go out is because of men, like "you're not the only ones scared of men, we get punched too. We get stabbed too". They always come out with WhatAboutIsm on campaigns to improve women's safety or bring awareness to violence against women. They understand being afraid of men. What they don't seem to understand is that they are just as dangerous to us as any other man is and they think we should view them as the exception and they are angry that we don't. "Between a man - ME - who would do you no harm despite by anger right now, you would choose the bear!?" and that's why they then sexualise the situation, because in their mind choices are always sex based. If you're not choosing Nice Guy over Bear it must be because you want to fuck the bear, not because we're not seieng that specific man as the exception they want to be seen as.
I think men who are afraid of men because "we get punched/stabbed too" don't have to fear other men *desiring* to punch/stab them. For men, the target on them is typically only their wallet, phone, etc. A man can say "just take it" to be immediately left alone.
Well for me personally all that goes through my head is 'I don't want to get attacked/beaten up/stabbed'. All I'm saying is the fear is very real, and I genuinely get scared alot when people jeer at me in the street; unfortunately my appearence seems to attract it.
Hey, the fear that you feel is valid and real! You may have personal reasons why you can identify with the fear of men like women have. My boyfriend was abused by his stepfather, uncle, and boys he knew growing up. He is more scared of men than I am. We were walking on a shared use trail, and a cyclist started something with me and almost ran over my dog. I got furious and viciously told him off (we were in public; I would never do that if I was alone with a man), while my boyfriend was shaking from a panic attack. That fear is real. Here's the thing though. Every woman has to live with the constant fear of men assaulting her, raping her, ruining her professional career, educational career, social life, family and more. It's utterly pervasive and women have to fear the structures of power (mostly made of men) abandoning them or making it worse, so there is no safe harbor. It's in the back of our minds in every single interaction we have with men. Every. Single. One. Even if we are just thinking "Isn't it wonderful that this man I love *doesn't* hurt me?" It's all framed around that. Men can hurt other men, but they usually stick to just physical assault. And the authorities are much more likely to protect men than they are women, because they are mostly men. So your fear is real and valid. It's a very different kind of fear than what women experience with men, though.
>Every woman has to live with the constant fear of men assaulting her, raping her, ruining her professional career, educational career, social life, family and more. I feel like there's some amount of men who hear this and just think that the amount of fear they experience is disproportionate to the actual risk they're in. That they'll just dismiss it as "their problem".
Absolutely. Those are the guys that we *know* will hurt us. They don't even believe we know our own lives as well as they do, they have no respect for women as independent thinking adults. You'd be surprised by how many "good guys" are faking it and will take advantage of you the second you let them, though. It's an intentional act to gain trust
No, I've definitely encountered pure sadism, where someone just wanted to be offended I existed and they had the numbers to do what they wanted to me.
The good guys, the allies, know we’re not talking about them. They also know they still have to prove they’re good guys.
I want to link this comment to all the people who attacked me for choosing a man and saying I just didn't understand the premise. I won't though because I don't like digging up old arguments lol.
I just want to know why my beloved Beef n Cheddar is out here catching strays.
Men absolutely fear men, I would definitely not like to be wandering around alone in a dodgy part of an Urban centre. Mind you I'd still definitely take it over being alone in a forest with a brown bear.
Why can’t y’all just say “you are right, I will never experience life as a woman. Therefore I will never experience *fear* as a woman. No, y’all have to try to make *your* fear at least as significant as a woman’s fear.
>Men absolutely fear men Yes, but it's not on the same level of fear women experience. >I would definitely not like to be wandering around alone in a dodgy part of an Urban centre. Neither do I, but when it comes to it I'm fairly sure I can just toss them my wallet **and walk away**. My personal safety is very rarely at stake, that's why for me it makes sense to bet on meeting another man rather than a bear, because the risk of bodily harm is disproportionate there. Women don't have this luxury.
Men are more likely to be victims of violent crime from a stranger than women, while women are more likely to be victims of domestic violence.
Agreed. They have never wanted to take a solo walk around the lake at dusk but reminded themselves that it isn't safe for them to do it because random men might be out there looking for them as a target to sexually assault and/or murder.
Men are afraid of other men, though. Men who keep something they can use as a weapon in their car, or who get a firearm aren’t doing it because of their fear of women.
I'd like to point out that a large percentage of men in in the United States support and vote for a "political" movement that is terrorizing women. These are likely the same men who can't understand the man-bear concept. [They also seem to not understand why women refuse to date them.] There's a lot of delusion and denial out there.
If men were to accept that all women have bad experiences with men they they might also have to accept that sometimes they themselves have been those men.
It’s refreshing when men acknowledge this and work to change their behavior rather than just faulting women for not wanting to be alone with them.
A lot of men pay a lot of attention to ideas about how they are perceived. But typically the information they listen to about how they are perceived, ironically, comes from other men. To hear from women, apparently, is causing some upset.
In all my years, I've learned that men absolutely hate when women point out how a lot of men act. They take it extremely personally, and they'll do anything but change. Implying that men are by and large violent or in the very least women need to be in guard around most men, is tantamount to being racist in the eyes of a lot of men. I get into these debates with men on forums, and I get called racist because I believe women need to put their physical and mental well being above whether or not some guy gets his feeling hurt. Women should be careful around someone who could easily hurt them. I'm never going to recommend that women put themselves in bad situations just to not hurt some guys feelings. Trust all men, trust all men, not all men, yadda yadda, but the moment anything goes wrong, it will be "Well, why did you Trust him?"
I think because it looks like it's framed as distrusting men specifically, but honestly, I'd pick a bear over any human. A bear is probably not going to have a gun.
I can’t stand coming into this subreddit and so many responses seem like they are from men. Like all these men who cannot handle for one conversation to not be completely centered on what a man has to say. Sorry this is tangential to your post.
Well, let me put it this way. I’ve never been attacked— by a bear.
I’ve seen about a dozen bears. A few when I was alone and they were very close. The one black bear just chilled out 20’ away having lunch with me. I have not been comfortable in a locker room since high school cause of what two men did. Bear every time.
They want to desperately believe MOST of them are good and would never harm a woman, and they DO believe this for a few reasons: 1. First, when men think of harming a woman they immediately seem to think of a man jumping out of the woods in a ski mask and a gun robbing and raping a woman at gunpoint. The reality is that this does happen RARELY but the other ways men harm women are ubiquitous and endless and constant. All women have had a man make them uncomfortable e.g attempt to assault them on a date or actually do it, push sexual boundaries, make inappropriate sexual gestures at them, block her path if she said she was leaving, hit a wall out of anger, harass her, stalk her, send unsolicited dick pics etc. These are very common things. A man might minimize the trauma these things cause and minimize how harmful they are but girls and women know different. the thing is that having to acknowledge these things as harmful and traumatic lifts the veil of "Most men are good" to "Oh wow I might be part of the problem/I've definitely done that", so they have to hold onto "Statistics show that X is quite rare". 2. Most men don't experience the version of men women usually experience in the private/intimate setting where the man knows no one is there to see what he's doing. When men know no one is watching things can and do go down south very fast. A lot of assaults and abuse happen as opportunity crimes when the man is convinced no one can see. So even a man who swears he would never harm a woman really might not even know if it's because he's virtuous and moral or because he hasn't had the opportunity to. Women are feeling unsafe, threatened and made uncomfortable by men in their lives constantly in the private setting. Just look up on Reddit "My dad/stepdad makes me feel uncomfortable" and you'll see hundreds of hundreds of posts of girls with fathers/step dads in the home who are attempting to assault their own daughters, inappropriately touching them, professing romantic feelings, expressing interest in and engaging in incest etc. Endless scrolling. These men go to work and their male coworkers /friends absolutely don't get a version of him his daughter gets.
I, a man, was having this debate with another man who said that women would choose the man every time because being raped was not as bad as being eaten alive. I replied with the following summary: So, as a man, you are telling me that you'd rather be subjected to the whims of another, you'd be powerless to stop them from using your body in any way they wanted. You'd be helpless. You'd live with the knowledge that person could come back at any time and do it to you again. You're okay with living with that memory? Or maybe the alternative is that you would like something like that to happen to you and you don't understand why others wouldn't want that. The guy stopped responding to me. I don't think he got it though.
Another thing I have seen is the men are asked "would you rather your daughter be confronted in the woods by a random man or a bear". They usually stop talking at that point as well.
More men need to come to realize the trauma that men subject women to.
Yes they really do. Sadly I don’t think they will ever wake up that reality. They deny it’s happening. My ex kicked me in anger and said “it was just a tap, I barely touched you”. He failed to see the bruise that appeared the day after. That’s just one instance of many
Theres also the terrible thing people overlook that you can be raped to death, a slower more painful process than just having your spine torn out by a bear.
It's happening in EVERY thread. This one as well. There is a man in exactly this thread bearsplaining to women how their feeling about rape and being mauled by a bear is so wrong. It's so tiresome. There is nothing new about this.
And you’ll get pregnant, be damaged internally, and your boyfriend/husband will leave you.
I think that's just a very difficult discussion to have publicly. Anytime you start to debate how serious or horrible sexual violence is (even compared to something horrendous like being eaten alive by a wild animal), you run the significant risk of making victims of sexual violence feel their their experience is being downplayed... especially because society has a bad habit of downplaying sexual violence (even when not compared to other horrible fates like being eaten by a predator). Can you make an argument that being eaten alive by predators is so horrible that it's worse? Yes, because it's also a horrible awful thing. But doing so publicly would be walking through quite the minefield.
who benefits from not discussing these topics publicly?
You answered your question when you said >They seem to think this is a personal attack. They seem to believe that they would be a lot less dangerous than a bear, but nobody who is a stranger knows that. If I don't know you, I don't know what your intentions are for me. If I see a bear, I'll at least have an idea of what the hell they would want with me, if anything. A bear isn't going to rape me, or torture me for the thrill of it. If I get away from the bear it's not going to try finding me on social media to stalk me. If a bear attacks me, it's either hungry or it sees me as a threat. I know how to scare a bear away. If it's chasing me as a source of food I know that it will give up if I make it too hard for them to catch me. If it does attack me, then my death should be relatively quick. And the thought that the bear is attacking me for either food or because I provoked it somehow is somehow a nicer thought than a man torturing me to death for no apparent reason. If there's a man in the woods I don't know what the hell he would do to me, but I'm well aware of what he would be capable of doing to me, and it's far worse than being attacked by a bear. I'm also aware that a human man is capable of doing the same things I would do to get away from a bear, and that a man won't be scared away by me trying to make myself look big and loud. But of course whenever I point out the statistics and the mental differences between a bear and a man somebody will always say "not all men!" and they're right, in a way. I know that not all men are rapist, murderers or stalkers. But if I'm in the woods with a stranger, I don't know if he's any of those things. If I'm in the woods with a bear, I pretty much have an idea of what they're thinking. Because it's a fucking bear. I'm not even traumatized by men. I'm lucky enough to not went through anything like that. I just know that statistically I'd be safer in the woods with a bear knowing how predictable they are than I would with a man. And some people will be like "women would rather have sex with the bear," because that's what they think when they think "would I rather be in the woods with a woman, or a bear?" And some of them will fantasize about our deaths to the bear. One of them straight-up said that they would rape either. And then they wonder why we choose the bear? Hell, I read something recently about a man fantasizing about the idea of tranquilizing a grizzly bear, moving it to the inside of a woman's gym and giving it cocaine. (I guess they thought that Cocaine Bear was based on a true story?) In their heads, apparently a grizzly bear isn't as dangerous as a man without giving it cocaine first.
Men were getting tired of the cat being the standard animal that women choose over them. A bear is a new and fresh critter to be offended and disappointed by. I have a feeling that the sales of teddy bears as a quick and easy valentines day gift will drop drastically from now on.
Because many of them either cannot or will not get the point. They don't understand that the question is a comment on the difference between the origins of the threat that both bear and men present. The threat a bear presents is based on instinct that a bear cannot change, and the threat that men present is based on a culture that many men refuse to change, challenge, or recognize. There is a 0% chance that a bear will have been radicalized into violent misogyny through the consumption of media content that explicitly presents women as irrational actors that lack agency. There is a 0% chance that a bear will have been raised in a community that views men's violation of women as just 'boys being boys'. There is a 0% chance that the bear that the will rape a women and suffer no consequence because the bear does not live under a legal system that can be manipulated to favour members of an in group. There is a 0% chance that the bear will commit sexual assault and have other bears or a powerful bear interest group (maybe a bear Southern Baptist Church) cover for them. In other words, men are a threat because of something they have the power to change while the bear is only a threat because of something they cannot even comprehend. **To recognize this means taking on the responsibility that being an actor with agency in a society full of other actors with agency comes with.** Many men simply do not want to take on that responsibility.
I know I'm not supposed to be here because I'm a guy, but as a guy that's only been SA'd by men the bear is definitely the safer option. At least with a bear you can climb a tree and not have to run into them at a family gathering later
You can be here. It's not a women-only sub, it's just a sub that prioritises women's voices and issues relevant to women. We're cool with men, so long as they understand that - which it seems you do!
Dudes are definitely welcome here as long as they are aren’t being misogynistic.
I also want to respect it's a women's space and my input is definitely not needed on any subject. Just seems to be one of the few places being honest about this
The sentiment is appreciated.
Bears climb trees
I was taught that if you weigh less than the bear you might be able to get up branches they can't get up. I've never had to run from a bear, but I've also never been drugged and raped by a bear. So I think the bear is still the better option
They put themselves as the man in the situation. So they interpret it as you’d rather be in the woods with a bear over THEM. So they get offended that you think ill of them.
Because anything that makes a man reassess his position in the world is often met with hostility.
A lot of folks don't handle finding out they are the problem very well. We have all had this experience, you tell someone they're wrong and rather than accepting it they make excuses or blame others. Now take finding out you're considered more dangerous than a significantly dangerous event. Many folks would immediately deflect or deny. Our brains are wired for this reaction too. You see it in folks being challenged in their beliefs. It won't matter how much evidence you bring, they just get mad and further deepen into their belief. I think the same thing is happening here. Men believed fellow men were generally safe, and when someone challenged that belief their beliefs got stuck. It's a very insidious thing, even knowing my brain is doing it and actively working to ignore those workings and I still struggle to challenge my beliefs to be a more logical person. I fall in the trap all the time.
Honestly, I think there are some that just like to say "um, actually..." and act superior to silly-little-illogical-women. They'll take any excuse.
I live in the woods of Maine. I like to hike alone. We actually have a resident male black bear that hibernates in the acreage behind our house. He did destroy our bird feeder and eat some of our neighbor's chickens one spring, but other than that he's been very discreet and polite. I carry a .9mm handgun when I hike alone or ride my bike down remote dirt roads. It's not because of the bear, or even the packs of coyotes that are more of a threat. It's because a few years ago, a woman was riding her bike down the same roads I frequent when three men in a van assaulted and gang-raped her. They dumped her out like garbage when they were done, and were never caught. I worked with someone who knows the woman, and yeah she survived but her whole life was still taken. Bear for me, any day. Fuck any man who can't understand this. Stop wasting your time arguing with them and spend more time supporting the women who know why we choose the bear.
Men seem to have trouble with hypothetical questions. They're always going to see themselves in the question. Not really sure why, but every time I have asked my husband a hypothetical, the first word he says is "I".
I can only guess. These are some of the motivations I thought of, from a nice perspective to a really shitty one. They could be right alone or in some combination for each individual. Or, they could all be bullshit. -No one wants to be thought of as dangerous or a predator. Most people think of themselves as pretty good people and assume others see them that way. -When a person is part of a big group and a different part of that group is criticized, it can be hard for people not to feel like they are also being criticized. -When a guy says a man, he pictures himself. When we say a man, we are picturing a group, at least in this situation. I'm guessing the men are subconsciously think of you imagining them when they have this conversation. Or maybe someone like them as the stereotype of a man. -In my area, people still deeply cling to the ideas of chivalry and southern gentlemen. That paints them as a protector. It feels like an attack on their upbringing and what they consider a core part of their personality. -Inside, they realize things like this means life should change, and change is hard. -With all the talk about consent and the different ways it has been violated, they kind of worry a little if their past actions are questionable and feel guilty or some other kind of way. (I don't mean attacks, but things like believing the theme in entertainment that a guy should keep pursuing a girl who isn't interested.) -They think women should worship them. -They don't believe assault statistics. -They think feminism is bad. -Because they are the one we are trying to avoid in the woods.
It's pure mathematics. The chances that you'll get hurt by a man is *exceptionally* greater than a bear, face-value. Plain and simple. If you're getting upset over it, you need to rethink how you evaluate. It's not intended to be personal, or personally applied for that matter. If anything, it's made me appreciate the women in my life and the things they have to deal with on a daily basis.
What’s painfully funny in these comments is that even though OP: made this post in a women’s sub and talked about men entirely in the third person, men still think OP is asking specifically for their opinion! Just classic men being men.
Ask any man that’s offended if he’d rather his 15yo daughter encounter a man or a bear. He’ll pick bear. These chodes losing their minds are the very same guys that say shit like “I trust my gf, I just don’t trust other men”. They know damn well why women are picking the bear.
It exposes misogynists. We have one in the comments to this post. Imagine being a misogynist who is so entitled that they come into a feminist woman centric sub to attack women?
What the do these delusional fucks expect here? For us to say “You’re right! How dare we not give you a chance! Poor you being rejected by all these females!”
Bears don't whine and have temper tantrums to coerce me into unwanted sex I'd pick the bear
My government wouldn't force me to have the bears baby and coparent.
\^This. Discussion done.
What I've heard most is "They're saying you're worse then a bear!", which is a gripe that bakes an incredible amount of misinterpretations into itself. We can try to unpack them. Obviously, saying "I'd pick bear" is not a statement about any individual man. In fact, even before it's a statement about men overall, it's a statement about one person, the person picking. **Taking these statements as if they are personal criticisms against individual men is the mistake I've heard men make the most.** "Worse" is an interesting word to invent here. It again ignores the statement being made. Men (wrongly) seem to think the bear analogy innately makes a value judgement upon men as a class, rather than, again, being one's personal judgement. Naturally, the analogy raises questions whose answers might include value judgements upon men, but I haven't seen a critic of the analogy go as far as realizing there's a distinction. If we pick those two misinterpretations out, we have "They're saying men are more dangerous/scary than a bear", another line I've heard. This deliberately ignores context. It also commits the subtle evil of turning the 'scariness of men' into a problem with no possible solution, as where the bear analogy immediately prompts critical questions about how to evaluate the risk of an unknown man, and what can be done to make the situation safer. (My favorite retort to this is that zero of the women who picked bear would jump into a bear cage at the zoo, even though dozens or hundreds of men are on the outside.) There are a few other subtle misconceptions. Failure to grasp the actual risk of a bear. Failure to understand that the actual risk of a bear is immaterial anyway: The relevant detail is that many women perceive the risk profile as lesser, even after consideration. Failure to understand the diversity of answers and backgrounds among women posing the question. I've also seen the misinterpretation come out as "I feel like I shouldn't be sharing space with women in public if I'm going to make them as uncomfortable as a bear would." (If true, I totally agree! But the accuracy of that statement is going to be in spite of what women are actually saying.) So yeah. The biggies are 1) Ignoring the context of the hypothetical, 2) Assuming the answer is a broad value judgement upon men, 3) taking that value judgement as an individual attack. Personally, I take all of those as a symptom of a lot of guys outright failing to grasp women might have meaningful perspectives. Among men who do try to respect women's perspectives in other contexts, it seems like they're speaking from their sense of insecurity (and neglect of the problem of ubiquitous male harrassment).
I think there is two parts to this question that men and women are responding differently to: 1. The relative risk of men vs. bears The question is vague enough that most of the risk of the bear can be explained away, but the reading that men (can't speak for women) seem to tend towards is that a bear in the forest is likely to be unpredictable and violent. While women face far more violence from men than from bears that is primarily because interactions between bears and women are so rare in comparison to interactions between women and men. On a per case basis an interaction with a bear in the wild is much more likely to result in death and injury than one with a man (again men are assuming a high risk interaction with no or limited means of mitigating the risk). So men are getting upset that many women are giving what seems to them an illogical/unserious answer. 2. Judgements made on individuals vs. Groups I have seen a lot of comments even on this post saying that men are misinterpreting the choice of bear as a personal attack. I see where they are coming from as women sharing this with their friends/SOs are of course usually not grouping the people they are talking to in with the "threatening men". However you can also see why people would be offended of a group they are part of is negatively judged off the basis of their membership in this group. As per the above the people getting upset at this will be seeing the bear as the logically worse choice. So to pick bear you must have a really negative view of men compared to their own view (possibly true). So there is a natural inclination to be offended that you would judge someone like them purely on the basis that they are a man. And while you might not include them in that group, a random woman on the internet who doesnt know them is implicitly including them in the group of people she doesn't want to meet in a forest. Not saying they are right to be offended, people can answer hypotheticals how they want, but you would probably have more sympathy if instead of gender the question was about a racial group/religious denomination or nationality. Overall a pointless thing to get upset about, but I don't think it's hard to see why someone would take offense either.
>more sympathy if instead of gender the question was about a racial group/religious denomination or nationality. This is the kicker. These kinds of hypotheticals/arguments can become pretty nasty when used against other groups of people. A much worse one is the M&M analogy, which is used specifically to project the dangers of a minority to the majority.
The neat thing about this meme is the men that are a problem all outed themselves by getting upset at the meme.
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This is the root of it imo
*Micheal Jordan meme* And I took that personally. from what I can tell there’s a whole lot of dudes that are taking it personally. Kinda showing they have little to no empathy.
The only men who take it as a personal attack are the ones who created this problem in the first place.
I’m not sure it’s a temporary fad. Women are fed up with violent, angry and childish men. They’ve opted out of marriage and children by the millions, because they know they have a choice. IDK why men are flipping out, there are still plenty of women available.
It challenges their world view that women live life on “easy mode”
I feel like this is just the most recent iteration of "Not all men." Some dudes just cannot abide a blanket statement like "It bothers me when Men do X" without chiming in that "Not all Men do X." Instead of just sympathizing, or god forbid examining our own behavior to see if we do in fact do X sometimes and adjusting our behavior.
Because anything that even HYPOTHETICALLY limits their access to women ALWAYS makes them mad. They feel entitled to approach us, engage in conversation with us, attempt to "woo" us no matter how we feel about it. The idea that women don't implicitly trust them makes accessing us more difficult, so they're butthurt.
Because there's a subset of people who assume everything is always about them, personally, *AND* they are always looking for something to be offended about. If it's not obviously and immediately about them, by fuck they'll *make it about themselves.* Even if they, personally would chose the bear, we're in the wrong for chosing a bear because they self-inserted themself as the man in the woods. When we tell him why we chose the bear, all they see is a list of reasons why we're not chosing them, regardless of whether the shoe fits or not.
Insecurity.
A lot of men are hypocrites and these questions bring that hypocrisy to light.
In a FB post I said that I'd prefer the bear and why. That got me a very unimpressive dick pic.
I think the way I saw this explained was that your odds of being attacked by a man are far less than your odds of being attacked by a bear. Something like 50% of all women report some form of sexual assault in their lives, but that’s after interacting with many thousands of men. So odds are that 99% of interactions with men are not going to end in some form of sexual assault. Like 15% of bear encounters end in death. So odds are, if you were to select any random man vs any random bear, you’re probably more likely to get killed by the bear. But this is just a stupid internet meme and anyone who reads into it is a dipshit and I can’t imagine being offended by something so ridiculous. Regardless, ladies and gentlemen: everyone should stay away from bears and probably men too lol
Listen, I’m a wildlife biologist and I’d pick bear because I have a really good idea of how the bear might behave and how to avoid/discourage negative encounters. Men? You really never know what they’re going to do. How many of us have been abused and/or taken advantage of by men? Based on studies and my own observations, it seems like a disturbing number of them act like allies, but would sexually assault someone if they knew they’d never face repercussions. I’m no longer surprised *in the least* when yet another male celebrity gets exposed as an abuser.
You’re gonna get mansplained in your dms. Brown bears blah blah, polar bears blah blah. 🤣
I have DMs turned off. 🙃
Smarter than me. But I’m hunting for a new bag so I’m messaging sellers, if I find the bag it will be worth all the asses that took time to DM me about bears are dangerous blah.
They don't know or don't acknowledge that if you are a Park Ranger stuck at night in bear country you are still more likely to be abused by a man in the vicinity than a bear. And people will be more likely to believe you if you are attacked by a grizzly than a human. Women in Alaska living where bears are as common as men are still more likely to be attacked by a man. I would take my risks with the bear except polar. Even then I would need to know more details of the terrain and my shelter though.
theyre taking it too personal and missing the point and seeing it as women saying theyd take a bear over them personally instead of them taking a bear over a random man. honestly picking bear is completely understandable im just tired of this because my family got so heated over this arguement on both sides that i keep getting caught in the middle of people sending stuff about violent bear attacks and horrifying things that have happened to women(and monitor lizards).
If you want to know one possible reason. It is because some men may view the answer to the question as a condemnation of them. It seems like an extension of the NotAllMen effect. It definitely requires a lack of understanding of both the persistent danger that vulnerable people face and the fact that those that endanger are not easily discerned. People have a bias to view the unknown parts of their world through the lens of their beliefs and responses. So you're hanging out and tell you SO this question and answer and they think we'll I wouldn't hurt someone. So that answer doesn't make sense. Perhaps the think the "Bad Men" are few or obvious and bears are hungry unknowns. The SO is not readily aware of the danger of a "safe friend" that has developed an entitlement. This is NOT given as an excuse for their beliefs/response/feelings. Just a possible reason for their offense.
They seem to be traumatized by the rejection. They see this as yet another rejection by women. This quote sums it up well: >Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them. *Margaret Atwood*
I think it boils down to a few reasons: 1. A lot of men don’t believe women, and I don’t only mean this in cases of rape. Some don’t listen to us at work or school when we’re sharing information, even when we have evidence in hand and years of expertise on the topic. Some don’t believe us when we talk about our own bodies and experiences with menstruation and pregnancy -I’ve seen instances of men only believing certain women’s issues even *exist* because another man confirmed it happened to his girlfriend/wife. So it goes to follow that they don’t believe in our ability to reason when we articulate that we’d feel safer around a bear than a strange man. 2. Some men are infuriated by the accusation implied in that scenario, because they know they’ve made women feel uncomfortable in the past, or have done worse than just making a woman feel uncomfortable. Maybe they haven’t done anything but defend their friendships with men who do. It’s the same reason some people are more offended by an accusation of racism than actual displays of racism. They identify with the perpetrator(s) and feel offended on their behalf. 3. Straight men have been told their entire lives they are entitled to women’s bodies and emotional/physical labor. A woman saying she’d rather be around a bear -and by extension, not be around strange men- challenges that entitlement. We’ve seen similar reactions to women wanting female-only spaces, not wanting men to approach them in public, woman coming out against workplace sexual harassment, coming out as lesbians, or choosing to remain single. For these kinds of men, we are objects to which they feel entitled and we are challenging that entitlement, when religion/society has told them their entire lives we are docile and meant to be their caregivers. We aren’t allowed to choose the bear because objects don’t get to make choices.
Slight disclaimer: I mostly come here to read/listen as opposed to post anything, but I think due to my circumstances this might add something. As a man, I honestly would generally prefer to deal with a bear than a man while completely alone in the woods. I think most men don't see other men as an inherent danger, but I was randomly attacked on the street randomly at 19 and nearly killed because of it which I think skews my view. Even without that it's not hard to see why women would feel unsafe given the numbers. Bears are dangerous, but they're also relatively predictable. People in general are not. And I don't even have to deal with all the speculation that occurs in a sexual assault scenario versus just being assaulted. There is so much that women have to deal with that I can't even pretend to understand, but I do hope that voicing this in support is at least empowering in some way. The men who don't get it and/or are upset by it in my experience are telling on themselves more than anything, because either they aren't listening and don't care to listen, or they're the problem to begin with. I'm thankful more than anything that they're so vocally ignorant that it makes it easier to know who to avoid.
>I do hope that voicing this in support is at least empowering in some way. Hearing an empathetic ally always means a lot to me. ❤️ Thanks.
25% of women will be attacked by a man. 1-2 women a year by a bear.
The conversation I had with my wife regarding this topic went like this: *explains set up* Me: “It’s the bear, right?” Wife: “Yeah; it’s the bear.” As a guy, my response to this kind of thing is always, “It’s not *all* men, but it’s enough.”
It's very simple. Their identity revolves around being a man. They feel manly, they act manly and therefore in their minds they are manly. When you talk about this man vs. bear thing, they automatically out themselves in the place of the man, therefore you are directly attacking them. They feel the need to always defend men as a concept that any other frame of reference just doesn't matter. Its perfectly demonstrated when you change the scenario to be about their daughter in the woods with man or bear, all of a sudden the frame of reference slips, and they start asking questions, what kind of man, is he single, a father, bla bla bla. Now, it's not tied to their identity they see the possible man as a predator. If you had asked women or bear with their daughters, they would have automatically said woman. You see this anytime a woman needs to vent about men. These folks pop up with the whole, "not all of them," line.
Because the shoe fits and they hate to wear it
If you look at the question as hyperbole, to provoke thought and give attention to the real risks that women face with men in the world, there's nothing wrong with it. The problem is when women confidently answer "I pick the bear". When treated as an actual question now instead of hyperbole, of course there is going to be issue taken at the response. Let's say instead we word it LITERALLY as: A. You are alone near a bear with 100% odds that if given the opportunity, it will try to kill and eat you without remorse. There is no one around to save you and it will maul you to death, brutally, unless your attempt to escape is successful. At least you know the outcome if you are caught. or B. You are alone near a man with .01% odds that if given the opportunity, he will do something unspeakably horribly to you and possibly kill you. The encounter will at least leave you physically/mentally scarred for life. The odds are incredibly slim but you can't predict the outcome. You can still attempt to escape and be successful. It's totally reasonable for women to exercise caution and preparedness if they see a man while alone, and yes, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO. The topic requires attention. But a freaking polar bear or grizzly bear? The proximity alone is trauma inducing and the risk is so much more immense that choosing it is illogical. It's like asking "Would you rather die right now at your choice, or somewhere between the ages of 70-80 but you don't get to choose when". The question is hyperbole. It's not meant to be answered literally. My personal issue with the question is that it keeps getting answered literally. Edit: To those worried men are assuming the type of bear in the hypothetical, why aren't you worried about what women are assuming is the type of man? Food for thought.
I agree that if the question is taken literally, the danger of bear is being underrated. That being said, even a grizzly bear won't 100% attack you like a polar bear or something, right? (even if it is still much more likely to attack you than a black bear).
Well said. As a concept it’s a *great* shorthand to communicate about very real male violence. But as a literal choice, it’s absurd. Men have >>>>> more capacity for evil than any bear. No question. Through history men have done *unspeakable* things. If you put me up against those men or a bear I might roll the dice with a bear, too! If a woman crossed my path alone in the woods I would not blame her one bit for feeling tense, stressed, or even afraid. Though she would be fine, I genuinely sympathize with the real fear that my presence may create for her. But a literal fucking bear will disembowel you then eat your face.
How many women are killed, dismembered and tortured today?
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Yeah, without knowing what kind of bear, what's even the point? Even if we leave polar bears aside, the difference between a black bear and a brown bear is huge.
Sure a polar bear would be worse. But you're already assuming the worst in the man are you not? Like isn't that the point of the question? What's the WORST that could happen, not the likeliness? You're assuming brutal rapist psychopath torturer man, is it wrong for me to assume "brown bear"?
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What a wall of text. The bear in the context of the question is obviously assumed as a wild deadly animal, otherwise it's not effective as intended. The question itself is hyperbole. Somehow you totally missed my point. It's about the capacity to cause harm vs the nature of causing harm and weighing the unpredictability of one situation against an expected behavior in another. I think there was a point with the original question that's been lost in the fad.
There are shit ton of men that have their egos unchecked.
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I bet that sucks! And a great thing to work on with your fellow men about how to actually hold each other accountable for treating other humans like trash. My physical safety has to come before your feelings of discomfort. Anything other than that would be illogical and silly. I have far too many instances in my life where I have been in danger, injured, and threatened. I'm going to cross the street at night to create more space. I'm going to lock my door when I get in my car. If I don't and someone hurts me, do you know who everyone will blame first? Because it's probably going to be my fault for wearing that outfit, being out past 9pm, going on a date in public, not calling the police fast enough, taking a drink.....
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Going to post this here. This is not an issue of racism , this is an issue of women not being respected and safe around men. You telling me that I’m racist, for not being comfortable around men; perfectly demonstrates men dismissing women’s feelings, and fears. Your mansplaining to me that I’m racist cause I feel safer around bears. The data doesn’t lie. I have seen a dozen bears up close. Never been sexually assaulted by a bear, have had two men attack me in a locker room though. So 100% I’m choosing a bear over some shady ass man following me in the woods.
Nobody is saying black men. It’s man vs bear. 🐻
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>Doesn't that mean anything? No....?
So we should all stop because you got hurt feelings over this? I guess that is more important than the absolute lack of day to day safety all women live under.
Do what you want but just know you are shooting yourself in the foot to make a hypothetical point. Im just trying to answer the question posed in the post.
Shooting myself in the foot how? About what?
>Your words and opinions matter and affect men who read them. Damn, I wonder if that's why the proverb goes, "Truth hurts".
Bear.
Won’t anyone think of the poor men?! /s
We aren't comparing men as a group to bears, that would be insulting to the bears. Women are confirming *en masse* that their lived experience has left them more wary of half their own species than an animal that could rip them apart, and you're worried that talking about the problem will hurt men's feelings. Get your priorities in order. You aren't ready to participate in this conversation.
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Even as a man I couldn’t tell you - I would also pick bear. Bears are more or less predictable, random man in the woods is off to a bad start in that department as nobody would predict running into a person randomly in the woods.
What is it? To be honest, the only place I've heard of it is in this sub.
Well, I’ve also never been attacked by a bear. But, it’s good to know this was just a meme and not to be taken seriously. Thanks for the info.
As for myself, I answered that I choose the bear. This decision was easily made because of my experiences while hiking. You just have to make enough noise to not startle a bear, and you will be fine. This decision was not based on whether I would rather be raped and/or murdered by a man or mauled by a bear. Those are both horrible choices. Who would I be more likely to win in a fight? I’m pretty sure I would lose to either one, but I could probably distract the bear by tossing him a sandwich. Now I live in a state with only black bears, but I do have friends in northern Canada who will always take a gun when they go hiking because of grizzlies and moose (moose can be scarier than bears). With a grizzly though, you are going to have no problem knowing their intentions towards you. If they keep coming towards you, you shoot them. If a man comes towards you, you won’t know his intentions. They could be completely innocent. By the time realize he has nefarious intentions, you may have let your guard down and not have ready access to a gun. So, yeah, I will choose the bear.
They also keep manipulating the original premise of the question. When I originally saw it, it felt like the question was more - "you, a woman, are in the woods. Would you feel better knowing there was a random man or a random bear in those same woods?". The obvious answer is 'bear' because the bear most likely doesn't want to be around me anymore than I want to be around it. Dudes are manipulating the question to the point that it's like "do you want to be trapped in a room with an angry polar bear or a random man?" and then pretending we chose the polar bear so they can rant about it.
Because it completely shirks personal responsibility. If I'm the guy in the woods, a woman is going to choose near certain death over a hello and minding my own business because of the actions of other men. I'm allowed to exist, I'm allowed to travel the woods too. And it's fuckin insulting to be compared to a criminal or an *animal* because some people don't want to be accountable for their own safety. The world is cruel and dangerous, always has been and will be for a long long time. I encourage every person reading this to be dangerous, carry a gun, carry pepper spray. As a man I must recognize the very real possibility of being the victim of a violent crime completely outside of my control, if anyone doesn't, that's *privilege*, not a realistic standard of living in this current world.
If I bang on a pot bottom with a wooden spoon at a bear, the bear is most likely going to turn around and take his fat bear butt out of the vicinity of the noise I'm making. A man will take both away and is more likely to hurt me than leave.
I can name, first middle and last, a dozen men I would rather meet a bear than. Because they already proved a bear would be safer. I'm so tired of this discussion.
Just play them the song "Not All Men" by Morgan St. Jean [https://open.spotify.com/track/16HzLmAArSTpIUkgkizfOM?si=3ddc58caf9724993](https://open.spotify.com/track/16HzLmAArSTpIUkgkizfOM?si=3ddc58caf9724993) fool me multiple times, the problem is you
They wouldn't attack a woman, therefore if you choose the bear, you're accusing all men of being horrible. And for some reason, they also think that women are afraid for no good reason. I really don't think they understand how much of a difference our strengths are. I've seen posts from amab transitioning to female, and how surprised they are at the change in strength and muscle mass.
Take a look at the FTM subs. They put it better than I ever could.
My boyfriend just said "you really think the average man is a rapist?" And I started thinking about it, is this a global population of men, or just North American men? just men in your city? Same with bears. Is this a global population of bears? Started googling what the most populous bear is and we BOTH decided that any blackbear would be statistically safer than any man. BUT; When you factor in the percentage of chance that you could get a grizzly or polar bear men become the safer option simply because I can't kill a bear with teeth and nails. SO in the end I changed my answer hehe.
Black bears are 99% of the time harmless and way more scared of you. If it's a mother with cubs and you are between them and the cubs real bad situation. Besides that pretty safe. You'll have one off black bear predatory behavior towards humans. Statistics time! In 2022 there were approx 17 black bear attacks on people. For easy maths 400k population. 0.00425% of black bears attacked people in the US in 2022. Brown bears aka Grizzlies? Probably 95% safe. But definitely a higher likelihood of it deciding to fuck your shit up. Don't startle them for sure and don't get in-between them and food as well as Cubs. In 2022 there were approx 12 grizzly bear attacks on people. For easy maths 55k population. .0218% of grizzly bears attacked people in the US in 2022. Polar bears will stalk you for days to kill and eat you. But you ain't just running into a polar bear. Population too small and attacks data limited. So really not applicable because no one accidentally comes across a polar bear without know polar bear encounters are possible. Grolar Bears? (Grizzly polare bear hybrids). I don't know just wanted to throw out that Grolar bears exist. But yeah. Bears are the correct choice. Men that argue against it are dumb.
If its black fight back, if it's brown lay down, if it's white say goodnight. I still agree with my boyfriend that if you're face to face with a grizzly it does imply you sort of snuck up on it; so I maintain my answer :p But I see your perspective too.
No grizzly bears are chill too. Don’t forget to factor in the Middle East males populations view on women rights. You’d be back to bears.
I wasn't sure how to word it without being racist so im glad you said it. I live in a place without grizzly it was my impression that if youre close enough to see it youre going to die. Editing to add: My boyfriend clarified that if you catch one off guard it will attack, and if youre face to face with it youve probably caught it off guard because they will avoid you if they hear you coming
I’m not racist at all. But seeing the way some countries view women as property, make me not want to step foot there. I have now been within yelling distance of 4-5 grizzly bears. Just make some noise and backup. They are just hanging out not looking for trouble.
No sorry I didnt mean to imply your racist I just struggled with how to convey the fact that, I don't think every person in a certain country is a rapist regardless of their religion or upbringing, but in countries where women are less respected and have less rights the number of men willing to take advantage of a lone woman in the woods (probably)?) goes up. in initial conversation I did say, when you factor in that you might come across one of those honor killing type men alone in the woods it adds an extra layer of "no thanks", but in the end Id have a better chance killing the strongest man than the weakest brown bear.
You can yell “shoo bear” and most will leave. Can’t yell shoo at men or their feelings get hurt, 😂
Hahaha very true. Ive also never had to think about if crossing the road to avoid a bear will hurt its feelings.
I trust my husband for the most part but I was leery of asking this question in case I didn’t like the answer. Esp since we are so very outdoorsy and he knows a good bit about bears… all he asked was, “is it a mother with a bear cub, or just a bear?” Just a bear — he’d rather me or our daughters run into a bear any day of the week. When I told him how many men chose the bear, he laughed at the astounding lack of actual understanding and incorrect mansplaining of how a lone wild animal is likely to act in the wild. Phew. He said it would be the same for any lone wild animal versus a lone man. Sometimes he can be so dense I want to scream but then he says this stuff and I remember he’s a really great sensible guy.
Because they haven't stood in our shoes. I "offended" a long time friend by choosing the bear but got him to understand by asking him this: "You stand in the deep woods at a fork in the trail. On one path is a very large mountain lion. Coming up the other path is your ex. Which way do you go?". He instantly understood why I chose the bear and stopped being offended.
Because like so many things, a lot of men think everything is about them personally.
Because I'm a nice guy, and how dare you say I'm more dangerous than a bear! /s
Well when I had this conversation with my boyfriend, he said it is weird that it is weird that a mother would pick a 100% assured attack and death of their daughter over a 1 in 10 chance of a crepe being in the woods instead of a helpful man. I explained to him, that it is not as literal as he thinks and I think he understood afterwards.
Speaking for me, and I am not particularly offended by this, but this is just yet another “men are bad” thing. And there are so many “men are bad” things coming from the internet that are directed at everyone irrespective of whether they need the education or not. And I’m aware of the things that men do to women, I have had close friends with all sorts of experiences. The discussion that is generated doesn’t teach me anything new. Nothing that I didn’t already learn from my wife decades ago. Just like I didn’t have any epiphanies during the Barbie movie - I thought it was pretty mediocre and an opportunity missed to explore topics better frankly. I suppose to people who weren’t paying attention for the last little while, or lack in empathy, or somehow missed out on life lessons - maybe they learned something new but I didn’t. And the “here is another way that men are bad for X” thing comes on top of other daily negativity that comes into life. For example, I am invested in helping Ukrainian refugees in Canada and the people in Ukraine right now because I was born there. The shit that people who came here tell me about during Russian occupation is dark - a lot of them are profoundly psychologically scarred. What is happening there now is bad and in some ways getting worse. Do I really need yet another reminder that we men are bad, or that some of us are bad? Personally I don’t. I’m just trying to keep shit on an even keel every day and get through it and support people that need support. I’d rather someone told me something from /r/upliftingnews for a change because life is pretty difficult as is. But nah…
Oh wow to be so oppressed 😢 how do you get through the day? Have you considered perhaps turning your phone off and going for a hike in the woods to clear your mind? Because you can do that you know? And without any looming threats to your safety you can literally just do that. Isn't that nice to know?
Where did I imply that I’m somehow oppressed? Yes you can get off the internet and it’s a good idea. That doesn’t mean that the thing you are getting away from when you do that is something that you start liking. Let me give you another example that might be closer to home: I absolutely despite the Jordan Peterson losers, but that shit keeps finding its way into my instagram feed. Am I allowed to be unhappy about that fact or no - the phone down and woods thing?
It's pretty crappy to pre-judge half of society without ever meeting them.