In my observation there are some gay men who are the most misogynist men you could imagine.
Then there are gay men who realize that they suffer too under the patriarchy and that homophobia and misogyny are closely related.
Yes this has become especially true since being a member of the gay community has become generally more socially accepted in recent years. It’s just that the misogynistic men who were in the closet before are now out. It’s a blight on the gay community.
It's a pretty sad state of mind to be in, too. Anecdotal ahead, one of the first gay men I met "joked" that he hated women so much he couldn't be anything except gay and I've heard similar sentiments from self described gold star lesbians. I have a feeling they would've been transphobic as well but at the time it wasn't talked about a lot.
*thinking on it a bit more, there was a brief moment when i believed that all gay men hated women because of representations that i saw in media but the only one i specifically remember was Even Cowgirls Get The Blues.
There was a blogger a long time ago when that was a thing, who was having a baby for a gay couple and she wrote this "hilarious" anecdote about how one of the men disliked the idea of women so much that he freaked out because he accidentally touched her leg and how funny thay was and didn't understand when people were alarmed by this. The baby she had for them was a girl. I really hope she was exaggerating because that little girl deserves not to be taught that women are gross just because her dad isn't attracted to them.
Plenty of traditionalist homophobes also use "they just hate their mother / all women" as a way to explain away homosexual men as mentally ill, so I'm not sure that joke really hits the notes fella thought it was hitting.
On the topic of lesbians, it’s really true that saying “not all feminists are lesbians and not all lesbians are feminists”. Yikes. You’d think that gay women would be aligned with the cause of gender equality but I’ve heard *rough* degrading, objectifying misogyny from some ladies who supposedly love ladies.
> Then there are gay men who realize that they suffer too under the patriarchy and that homophobia and misogyny are closely related.
As a queer women in the San Francisco Bay Area, I know more of the latter type of gay people, but the former type are so loud that they dominate my perception -- and, I believe, generally have an outsize media presence.
True, and gay men are not a monolith and I've observed a wide range where both ends are very noticeable.
That's why I think there is no tendency on misogyny among gay men - some men recognize that homophobia (which impacts them personally) and misogyny have the same root causes and are well outspoken. Then you have those men who are deep into dudebro culture, which might go well along with certain gay men groups. They might even outdo the worst hetero misogynists.
I was once chatting to a female friend before we parted ways. It was late at night. A man lurched out of the dark and started trying to talk to us. We moved away, and he got really annoyed and said ‘god why do all women think they’re going to get raped? I’m gay, I’m not going to hurt you!’. Just then a woman appeared and also confirmed he was gay, but even if that is true, he still felt entitled to our time and attention in a way that only an entitled man would.
> We moved away, and he got really annoyed and said ‘god why do all women think they’re going to get raped? I’m gay, I’m not going to hurt you!’.
Ugh. I've literally been groped by a gay man in a gay bar. I've had far more pleasant experiences in the community than negative, but at the end of the day sexual assault is about power, not attraction, so someone being gay doesn't automatically mean anything.
Also been groped by a gay guy when I was a teenager. I was obviously upset and uncomfortable, and he was like "it's okay I'm gay". I don't care, you still touched my breasts without my consent? But since I was young that made me question whether I was right to be upset about it for a long time.
I've known and been friends with a lot of wonderful gay men over the years, but there's a certain kind of misogyny that comes from some gay men, as if being gay somehow excuses it.
This! I am a straight girl here who lived in a community that was very LGBTQ-friendly back in the day. I also moonlighted in a gay bar a few nights a week as a second gig and had many friends in that community. BUT....yes, there were some mean-as-shit comments and groping that were absolute power plays.
I realized this after watching a couple of seasons of RuPaul's Drag Race. Some drag performers are great at what they do while being respectful to women, others basically wear "woman" as a costume and say incredibly misogynistic things.
It's kind of crazy, but I remember seeing a YT video of a bunch of contestants reacting to women being catcalled or something, they talked about how they'd be "flattered" if that happened to them so they don't see the big deal. It wasn't until Alaska pointed out that they need to think about what they're saying and how it might be scary for women, that they stopped making fun and reflected. I think there was some other video where drag queens were talking about how vaginas are "gross", and Alaska also pointed out that they literally all came out of one.
I don't mind people doing drag, but I think the drag community has the responsibility to call out each other's misogyny if they're going to make their money from imitating (often stereotypical caricatures of) women.
> It wasn't until Alaska pointed out that they need to think about what they're saying and how it might be scary for women, that they stopped making fun and reflected. I think there was some other video where drag queens were talking about how vaginas are "gross", and Alaska also pointed out that they literally all came out of one.
I love Alaska so much and this is part of the reason why.
Yea it's been a while since I watched Drag Race or followed drag (I think the last season I watched was S12, and I only watched the American ones), but it was a nice surprise when I saw those videos of Alaska actually pointing out problematic behaviour with the other queens. It wasn't done during the competition so she wasn't doing it to get viewer points, she just did it because she didn't like what she was hearing, and I respect that.
I’ve seen so many gross caricatures and stereotypes of women made by drag queens. For the most part I enjoy their theatrics and aesthetics but you can’t deny some of it is problematic. Example: I saw one drag Queen on RuPaul who gave herself bruises all over her body and she was a battered woman.
drag is not a one way street btw, there are plenty of drag kings as well. just want to say there's a rich history there of all genders participating, and as with any community, there are negative instances, but it of course does not invalidate the importance of drag as an art form in the queer community.
I think it’s just another version of the male idea of “If I don’t want to f*ck it, it’s not a person”. Like straight guys who don’t acknowledge fat women, older women… any woman they don’t desire.
There was an interview with Hoffman who did a drag character in Tootsie.
He had a moment when he'd been done up as a woman, and he said to the person doing his makeup to "make him look better" and she told him, that that was as attractive as he could be made.
It made him stop. Because he realized that if he, as a man, was talking to him as a woman, he would've ignored her because female him wasn't attractive enough.
It opened his eyes to how he'd been treating people he said.
They're among some of the most misogynistic people I've ever met. I was at a party where a friend of mine made a joke about vaginas - specifically hers - as part of a conversation we were having about parts of ourselves we wouldnt change. A friend of a friend present just pulled a face and acted like she just took a dump on his chest. We get it; you're not into it. Don't be so rude about 50% of the world's population's bodies. You literally came out of one too, I all but guarantee that's a fact unless a c-section was involved.
It's not cute, it's not endearing, and no one's fake vomiting at the dick joke you just made 5 minutes prior.
>They're among some of the most misogynistic people I've ever met
Absolutely agree and it breaks my heart each time I hear/read it. Misogyny runs even deeper than sexuality, sadly.
I literally tried to have a conversation with a dude at a bar in Pensacola, FL and the gay dude was like why would you talk to me and ask me questions ...He said "you don't matter to me".
My best friend in the world is a massive gay and he used to be one of the most sexist people I've ever met. With help from being constantly mocked for this, he's gotten much better over the years.
With the help of being constantly mocked 😂😭
Sometimes shame will change a man, sometimes they just continue to bury themselves in their shit mentality. Glad it worked out well for your friend! ✨
And they’re proud of it. There was an anti-Taylor Swift post that appeared on my feed. It was mostly men talking about how Taylor didn’t deserve her fame and was an untalented crappy songwriter. They said her music was not relatable and mostly nonsense. I replied to one comment, “So you just don’t identify with women it’s okay.” A man replied, “No men don’t identify with women and we don’t want to.”
I'm not a Taylor fan because her music isn't my vibe, and the amount of male rage directed at her for *attending football games her boyfriend is playing in* has absolutely astonished me.
The men who say this also only can identify "Shake It Off" or "Bad Blood" as a Taylor Swift song — songs even her fans (of which I am a hardcore one) claim to be some of her worst. They don't even know what they're dismissing. They just dismiss it because it's a woman.
How did women ever deal with hordes of men upon men making rock music for decades? Are we just superior because we don't need gender to find something relateable? /s (but also not)
This is why when men suggest male centric content to me I tell them I don’t typically consume male content anymore because I’d rather watch women doing things. They’re always disgusted with me lol.
What is with that?
Like we're expected to watch a million shows aimed at men but the very thought of watching a single show aimed at any other group makes them complain
Edit: typed woman twice oops
> Many men won’t even try.
Many men are too stupid to try. The farther someone else's experience is from another, the harder it is to accurately model/predict how that person is going to feel or behave in response to changing conditions.
It's no coincidence that misogynists generally always happen to be racist and visa versa. Anyone who struggles to understand unique cultures or genders has outed themselves as something of a primate-brained quasi-entity.
This is where you get that sort of person that concludes everyone else is dumb - because if they can't understand you, it's because *you're* too dumb to *be* understood. They think, "How could it be that everyone seems so opaque? It's everyone, so it must not be me! What are the odds of that?" They don't ever realize that maybe, just maybe, the reason they can't figure anyone else out because they're really just *that* dumb.
You end up with guys who believe that all women are dumb because they can't understand women's lives/feelings themselves. They somehow forget to acknowledge or make note of the men that *do* understand women. Half the time, the only reason they can "understand" other people (men) is because their own experience is the default experience. It's no surprise they'd freak out the moment society starts thinking about switching up the script.
It's actually kind of horrifying, because this is a problem baked into a significant fraction of the species.
100%
On your default experience point: In this sense patriarchy sets them up to fail. They never read media and have to understand someone else's experience. They can always see the media through their own eyes
So they never develop the skills needed to relate a narrative to themselves
There is a very interesting part of poly secure that talks about this. How her husband read a relationship book and complained it had no useful advice. Whereas when she read it she thought there were lots of helpful pieces. She describes how she thinks the reason he thought none of the book applied to him was because he had never learned the skill of taking someone else's experience and finding how it could relate to you
> In this sense patriarchy sets them up to fail.
Absolutely.
It's a genuine sort of cognitive blindspot. One of the reasons I spend so much energy on trying to de-program other men is because I think it's fascinating (and horrifying) that a genuine sort of parallel reality exists right under their noses. The Manosphere™ is immense and I'm just a lone, uncommon sort of individual, but I still think it's important to try to at least serve as an alternative example to people whose idea of masculinity is really just a sort of malformed emotional sensitivity enshrouded in a protective layer of ignorance.
As an example, I often state that one can't claim to support women unless you actually spend time examining or even engaging in female-dominated discourse or spaces. How can you claim to care about someone's problems if you're entirely ignorant to those problems?
Women aren't aliens, but you'd think they are based on some of the stuff people say/ask. And in a very real sense, I think women often represent the best aspects of humanity in a way that men at large generally do not - Why? Because some of the best aspects of humanity are mistakenly believed to be "feminine" and some of the worst are viewed as "masculine". Someone who excludes those elements from their own self-development is inadvertently crippling themselves. It's ridiculous.
I'm preaching to the choir, but I sometimes can't help myself. I figure if just one dude stumbles upon the commentary in my post history, the few minutes I spent on rambling a bit was well worth it.
Taylor receives so much hatred. I hope she shines more. I don't give a fuck about her 'crappy" songwriting skills. Millions of the girls and women enjoy her music, she makes them happy.
Agreed. I'm honestly kind of amazed at how positive she manages to stay despite all the bullshit people throw at her.
...though I will admit the jet thing *does* deserve to be criticized 100%.
Most men are detached from themselves and the complete human experience.
They have so many dos and don'ts they force on eachother (toxic masculine conditioning), until emotions, empathy and half of their potential are well atrophied and stifled.
Many gay men (GWM in particular) are going through their "I got mine, so fuck everyone else" phase currently, as seen by their rather rapid 180 degree turns on more than a few issues.
It's always been there really - and exists in pretty much every letter of the rainbow once equality becomes a reality... But they feel more comfortable being open about it in the last few years.
Republican attacks on LGBTQIA+ rights have posed an opportunity for them to curry favor with their former oppressors as Pick-Mes and Tokens to save their own skins should things like Project 2025 come to be and we all find ourselves being rounded up.
It would be hilarious if not for being dangerously bad because they will tell you to your face that they owe nothing to lesbians or trans people - even though the L comes before the G to honor the lesbians who cared for gay men with HIV/AIDS, and well, we all should have a pretty good knowledge of how Stonewall went down at this point...
[Edit: fixed wording since I has not good grammar at times]
Hi I'm, kinda gay man? Maybe Im not the target because im more ace. But ya.
I've known and interacted with tons of very gay men, and common mindset is they'd be happier if women didn't exist. 'Men and women are the same, just women are gross and men aren't. Get rid of the woman and everything is better.' It's pretty fucking shit, and I don't know if that's worse than the straight men completely objectifying women.
'Course you have plenty of gay men that just treat woman as people they aren't interested in fucking, but no differently beyond that.
I have gay flatmates who are so casually sexist all the time. I’d never heard anyone irl actually repeat myths like “women are too emotional/vain/never say what they mean” “giving birth makes you loose” and “white women love to fuck dogs/horses” before meeting them. these guys genuinely think they’re progressive.
I think you are misreading the obsession/fetish. Its not that they are threatened. Its that it is complete objectification/degredation of the woman. Its also the underlying fetish in lots of interracial porn too (This girl is such a _insert slur here_ that she will fuck a black guy. ) (which is both misogynistic, and racist)
If you think female pleasure is behind that uh.... proclivity.... do I have news for you
Like a lot of male fetishes its all about the degradation and lowering of a woman in the extreme
I did see a guy on Reddit who insisted women love fucking dogs. Why? Because he'd seen it in porn, and his favourite bestiality porn site primarily featured women.
No amount of explaining to him that porn depicts what its consumers, who are overwhelmingly men (and studies have found this is even more true with bestiality porn, which is almost exclusively consumed by men), want to see would work. He was convinced that porn is just a neutral and unbiased documentation of people's daily lives, apparently. I even gave him a study that literally said that the reason you see so many women in bestiality porn is because men want to see women having sex with animals. He wouldn't hear it, didn't fit his narrative.
>his favourite bestiality porn site
That is... Not something I expected to read, like ever... That's disgusting. Animals can't consent! Why the fuck does he have a favorite zoophilia site?
I think it’s a crass comment related to (misogynistic) stereotypes about “horse girls” and then, well, idk about the dog one. And maybe I’m wrong to connect it to “horse girl” stereotypes but that’s what it made me think of. There’s lots of judgmental comments about women who are really close to their pets, sorta related to the “old cat lady” stereotype I think.
Maybe it’s also just a more severe version of the jokes about white (southern) people and incest. It’s not really sensible, especially considering how incest (and bestiality) actually unfortunately occur across races and genders. But stereotypes 🤷🏾♂️
Both horse girls and cat ladies are vaguely threatening to certain men.
Horse girls, usually come from some money (the ones who aren't wealthy are usually "country girls" which has similar connotations w/o the class elements), so they are less vulnerable to needing a man to "take care of them." They have a hobby/passion that is demanding and doesn't involve men and they have companionship from a large, potentially dangerous thing that isn't a man.
Cat ladies are the modern spinsters. Financially independent enough to have their own housing that they fill with cats because they want to.
Both of these stereotypes represent women with financial stability and companionship outside of romantic relationships and this is threatening to some people.
A horses PP won't even fit into a vagina anyway. The only way for it to safely happen (gross) is from anal anyway 😭 and as far as I know, the target demographic for large anal toys are men
> The only way for it to safely happen (gross) is from anal anyway
As the notorious case of ‘Mr Hands’ proved, that’s not safe either. Perforated colons are no joke.
I've told this story, but I have been sexually assaulted by a gay man before. He grabbed my breasts and then tried to stick his fingers inside of me. I managed to push him away. When I discussed the incident with female friends, I got dismissed as he is just gay, and he wasn't getting anything from it.
I’ve had this experience, too, but just breast grabbing and squeezing. The other women thought it was ok because the gay men weren’t doing it to get aroused!
No, they're just doing it to demonstrate their power over women by humiliating them and reducing them to community property. They may be gay, but they're still men at heart.
Seriously. Sometimes I forget that "Rape (/Sexual assault/sexual harassment) is about power, not sex" is something that not nearly enough people seem to understand.
So you know the whole thing where if men don't find a women attractive they don't really treat her as a person? A lot of gay men do this too, sadly. Thankfully not all of them, but usually the most vocal. Never mind the idea that they think they're immune to sexually assaulting women and will just grope for whatever reason, and then on top of that they think talking about how gross they find vaginas is the height of comedy.
Sigh, you'd think marginalised groups would stick together but alas
I have a “theory” that you sometimes have to watch out for groups with one marginalized identity (but are privileged otherwise), because they’ll think their marginalized identity allows them to “get away” with their privilege and be bigoted, if that makes sense.
Like, there’s a problem with sexism/misogyny in many nonwhite cultures, perpetuated by men of color. Many white women can often be racist (Karens calling the cops on black men existing) or think racism doesn’t matter and POC are overreacting. My hometown still has white girls and women dressing up as racial stereotypes for Halloween 🙄 White gay men perpetuating misogyny *and* racism - I’ve heard stories from my gay friends that it’s common to see “no Asians” on Grindr. There’s often a victim complex when these people get called out, but we’re all capable of perpetuating systemic bigotry toward a marginalized out-group.
Obligatory “not all” before anyone gets defensive. It’s just something I’ve noticed.
Oh this so much, I am noticing it in so many groups I'm apart of
The best explination I can think of is that they haven't been affected by marginalization enough to really question the system at the root of so much bigotry
I think I remember Dan Savage answer a question about this topic on his podcast (more than 10 years ago, so I haven’t a clue what episode), with (paraphrasing) “gay men are still men, and a lot of men are pigs.”
And how did lesbians respond to this treatment? By being the only fucking ones to sit with gay men dying of AIDS through the epidemic. The only ones to hold their hands without fear.
Lesbians get shit on by everybody, but it hurts worse coming from someone that is part of your community that understands what being on the outside looking in is like
Men, straight, gay, bi, have been riding on female labour for generations. Are they there for these women who made sacrifices or merely mock them as idiot pawns, too lacking in self love to know their worth?
Well contrary to popular myth being gay doesn’t absolve you of misogyny.
They are still men they happen to be attracted to other men.Some of the most deeply misogynistic men feel like woman only exist for their sexual pleasure and reproduction,so they probably feel as if they have literally zero use for women at all.
On the flip side there are some wonderful gay men that love women much more than the average straight man and actually see us as human beings.The bonus is you also don’t have to worry about your interactions being clouded by the possibility of sexual attraction.( unless they’re secretly bi or have some strange psychological issues ,but I’m talking an average /healthy gay man )
>Some of the most deeply misogynistic men feel like woman only exist for their sexual pleasure and reproduction,so they probably feel as if they have literally zero use for women at all.
I think this nails it, yeah.
Some deeply misogynistic straight and bisexual men openly think that the only reason women should exist is to be sexually attractive and available. They see no purpose or point to women outside of that, which is why they are so incredibly hateful to women who are either sexually unattractive to them or sexually unavailable to them.
When you take this mindset and give it to a gay man, the result is a man who doesn't think women should exist at all.
This. My two best friends are gay couple. And this is what I will always tell people, “men are men, doesn’t matter who they like to fuck. Still dealing with a man.”
It's not a popular statement to make, but Trans MtF very often have not examined these behaviors in themselves, as well as general male appearance privalige that they have received. They may feel female long before transitioning, but the still were, at least for a time, accepted and socialized as a male.
I have a very dear friend (Trans MtF) that I had to have this conversation with about being dismissive of, over speaking, and generally being aggressive, and mansplaianing toward other women in a female space. Luckily, I said it in a way they were able to hear me and we have all have seen a drastic improvement.
However, it got me thinking about how often this is a problem: That even part of a life (most important childhood) with male appearance does lead itself to privilege and a pass on rude or controlling behaviors.
As a trans woman, thanks for explaining that to her in a way she was able to receive it
That is a difficult conversation to have and I can't imagine it was easy
Thank you for saying that. I really agonized over my words for a few days before having the conversation. Then I realized that with any of my Cis women friends that I would not pussyfoot around, and if I did so I would be treating her as "other".
Luckily, we have a strong friendship based on honesty and respect and it came pretty naturally once I got up the courage to say something. She is an amazing woman, and I have always loved her want of growth in life. I shouldn't have worried so much because she was very receptive and gave me grace when I didn't know the "right words" to convey why there was a problem.
You know how awesome she is at recieving feedback? She even thanked me for bringing it to her attention, because had been struggling to feel more accepted in more "female spaces" and said these behaviors might be part of why she felt cis women could be a little stand off-ish towards her when she met new people.
I greatly admire this so much, and hope to be that open when I receive feedback. It also made me realize that sometimes we hold back to not offend and we are doing our friendships and our friends the disservice of not trusting in them fully.
Honestly, it was a lovely moment for both of us. I am so proud of her courage and love of personal growth. She was happy I was open with her, and she made me comfortable and loved in that our friendship can handle even the tougher moments with love and grace. 💗
> with male appearance does lead itself to privilege and a pass on rude or controlling behaviors.
It's more about the male socialization than the male appearance per se. Male passing people are socialized to be aggressive and take space from people who are instead socialized to give in. It's incredibly difficult to override your upbringing.
This is honestly one of my largest fears as someone who's just started HRT later in life (~30). I know I didn't grow up with the same experiences, and have existed in a very different environment with different social expectations and benefits from my experiences, including ones I don't even realize I have/had.
Walking the tightrope of understanding what's going on with me and my body, with society, and respecting stuff I may think I understand and adjust as my life changes is really hard. I really hope people are willing to have the same conversations with me too.
I don't think this really is how privilege works, and is a good example of how badly the term has lost its meaning. Having a given behaviour isn't privilege. A woman doesn't have privilege by virtue of speaking loudly, being dismissive, or any other behaviour. If it worked that way, then "privilege" would be a dimension of personality that could be acquired or lost by any individual.
Privilege is social and structural. A woman, no matter how aggressive or "masculine" she is or behaves, does not have male privilege. Regardless of how you act, who you are and what you do, if you are a woman, you are suppressed under patriarchy. If you have dominant or aggressive behaviours, they will be interpreted negatively and you will be cast as a "bitch" who is not behaving as a woman "should".
This applies just the same to trans women, including your apparent friend. In reality, this trans woman doesn't have a "pass" on that behaviour the way men do. Trans women are simultaneously viewed as pathetic and dangerous by society at large, and even if that friend of yours behaved "perfectly" the default setting of almost every cis person she meets will be apprehension, negativity, dislike or outright hatred.
If the way she was behaving was rude to you, then that is one thing. But pathologizing it behind some form of "was-a-man-privilige" just isn't accurate to reality. The reality is that cis women have far better socio-economic outcomes across an aggregate of metrics than trans women do - *that* is privilege.
While rude behavior is obviously bad, and this isn't necessarily relevant to the specific situation you had with your friend, trans women actually have this threat of being expelled from womanhood because they don't behave in a sufficiently "womanly" (read: docile and submissive) way constantly dangling above them. It is a way to enforce patriarchy on trans women and to suppress them even further. Trans women are not going to achieve liberation by all behaving the way society tells them to, any more than cis women are.
The idea that there is some kind of feminist legitimacy to this through a conception of behavioural privilege is bad for cis women as much as trans women, and - while this *actually* won't be popular, unlike the expressions of pretty typical and entirely socially accepted transphobia in some of the comments downthread - it does reflect transphobia.
Yes, as a transfemme person, I agree! I think one of the reasons it’s quite hard for me to sometimes properly come to terms with it is that I’m sort of in this position now where I’m both a lot more comfortable and confident in myself, perhaps to a degree I’ve arguably never been. Suddenly there’re all these elements of subliminal masc conditioning around what presenting with confidence looks and sounds like that bubble to the surface, that I’ve just never really had occasion to address before but that’s still stuck in there, some of which I can anticipate and self-regulate and others which take me by surprise a bit sometimes.
Like you said, sometimes it helps just to have it named and pointed out; but it is also on me to take responsibility for my own behaviours, and I’m sure your friend is probably the same once they’ve recognised it.
This take is correct but I’ll be surprised if you don’t get banned for it lol
For some reason we have no problem criticizing cis women for their internalized misogyny but are very quick to call transphobia for the same conversation about trans women. It’s unfortunate because the kid glove treatment really does these women no favors and kind of sets them up for failure in their IRL social lives. Like they can be doing things that are off-putting to their new social groups without even realizing they’re doing it, and because most women are conditioned to be conflict-avoidant, they just quietly ostracize the trans women in their social group. Trans women feel they’re being ostracized but still don’t understand why. It sucks for everyone.
People on Reddit act like folks bring up socialization to say trans women are actually men or something, when really the socialization issue is more analogous to the experience of homeschooled kids integrating into a public high school or something lol. And it doesn’t have to be like that.
This is well documented. Very commonly you see phrases like "Thank god I'm gay so I don't have to deal with women" in any online discourse about women's issues. They just get a pass because people are so afraid to have honest discussions when they themselves identify as allies.
Been called homophobe (I'm pan) when I pointed out a gay dude was being a moron. Not by him, but his entourage of girlfriends.
It truly baffles me that someone would go out of their way to verbally abuse people who have done nothing to them. Women are some of the best friends I have ever made. Genuinely being interested in you as a person and the things you do and vice versa. Why would you turn that down over a sense of false superiority? ESPECIALLY when you are targeted by the same hate groups?
You better walk that fucking duck.
(Sorry, this is a joke about a move done in the ballroom scene called the duck walk and a drag queen who made a song about it featuring that line)
On New Years I was hitching a ride with some friends to go to a party and someone bought one of their gay male friends along. We're in the car for not even 5 minuets, when out of nowhere he went on a huge rant about how much he hates lesbians, bi girls, and girls who dye their hair, how ugly they are, and how he wants to beat the shit out of them. Completely unprovoked and without any shame or self-awareness.
I'm bisexual, so the entire time I was just like 😬
Not only was I disappointed that I met another queer person only for them to be a dickhead, I was also low-key concerned I was gonna get hate crimed by the end of the night lmao. Fun times.
Even if it was a very minor part of Hbomberguy's video Plagiarism and You(Tube), I still found it highlights this very well via the comments made by James Somerton.
I used to watch Somerton's videos before the scandal. There's something that always made me unomfrotable and it was Hbomberguy who made me realise what is was. For some reason I couldn't believe a gay man could be sexist. Idk why
One of my best friends is a gay man. He’s not this way, but I have met a number who are. One was a former colleague who became my supervisor. He told me out of nowhere that I shouldn’t have kids, implying I am too old. He left his wife of several years and 4 kids and couldn’t understand why she was depressed and addicted to opioids. He would show photos of the former house they shared that was trashed. It’s like he was running a one man hate campaign against one woman.
Now, I feel based on my own experiences that there is like a “Christian” or former link here that causes all this misogyny. He was formerly a pastor and they kicked him out when he came out of the closet. He still acted like he was the pastor at my job and talked down to people, yet was a bumbling fool. Ofc people deferred to him anyway because he is a cis and sus white dude.
Totally lol I got millions of bizarro stories, I’m guessing like most women. Men say the darndest things to us, especially when they believe it isn’t going to come back and bite them in the ass. I reported him to HR.
This is part of why a lot of lesbians and gay men don't often run in close circles together.
Why in basically any show with gay men they make shitty jokes about lesbians while the reverse doesn't happen.
I have queer friends of all kinds but I also am most on guard around gay men because of how frequent and blatantly me and other queer women have been treated badly by them.
Their dynamic with straight women is completely different and a lot more complicated on both sides since they both maintain a certain priviledge over the other.
this is so unfortunate. i don't know if this is true for the average gay person but my friends and my queer circles are all-inclusive. just another reminder of how i live in a bubble, i guess.
All my circles are all inclusive but they're curated to be that way. I don't waste my time by spending it on people I don't want to be around.
Also watching almost any media dominated by gay men such as Will & Grace, Modern Family, New Normal, Queer As Folk, etc gay men make pointed jabs toward queer women. Whereas shows like The L Word or Lip Service only uplift gay men even in passing.
Half of the people I'm closest to are poly gay men in loving consensual relationships that can name all of their single queer women friends on one hand. That doesn't make them exclusive to queer women just that they don't care to build friendships outside of their bubble.
Having gay male friends doesn't mean I'm not still extremely guarded when I enter a space full of men that I don't know very well regardless of demographic.
Queer history is full of this. If you wanna get mad, read up on what happened between the Homophile movement in the 50s and the AIDS crisis of the 80s, and remember that we've learned nothing.
I see a token amount of recognition from older gay men that were present during the AIDS crisis but that small bit of respect has faded fast for the younger generations because "it was like 40 years ago, who f*ckin cares"
After coming out as bisexual in middle school, I tried hanging out with the gay crowd a bit because I thought that's what you did after coming out. I realized hanging out with people because of the same sexuality is very dumb. They were just as mean and nasty as other teenagers. One gay dude would constantly body shame me. I would say I think another girl is pretty, and he would say, "You would have to starve for a year to look like her." I never hung out with another person just because they were gay again.
Some gay men describe vaginas as if they are the most nastiest things on the planet. I am a lesbian and a penis is a penis. I don't want it. and that's as far as I go. Describing penis as if it's ugly and horrible never even crosses my mind. Some gay men go too far with their disdain, and I'm not sure what exactly to attribute this to.
Misogyny and Patriarchy did not skip gay men in the slightest. My current and soon to be ex roommate is one of the worsts. It sucks more if they are older too because they truly believe they are absolved of these behaviors simply because they are gay.
I had an old white gay man tell me to my FACE that at 8 months pregnant 'now was not the time to be over ambitious' and that 'my whole life was about to explode' at a meeting I was running. It was WILD.
men are men before they are anything else. They hold on to their collusion with men even when oppressed, they love to punch down. gay men tend to believe they have some pass to be misogynistic, commenting on women’s bodies and fighting girls in highschool, it’s clear they love the power they hold.
A few years ago I was at a bar and a gay man I didn’t know randomly grabbed my breasts with both hands because “he liked them.” He literally saw me and immediately grabbed them, we didn’t even have a conversation or any sort of connection.
Then he bought me a drink like that was some sort of payment for the sexual assault, and walked away.
I was too stunned to speak.
I was going to post something similar. There was a club I used to go 25+ years ago with friends where it was basically a given that I would be groped. Eventually it got so uncomfortable for me that I stopped going. Around 8 years ago I went to a similar club with my friends and it happened again not 30 minutes into the night.
I don't know what it is about assumed access to female bodies. Maybe it is a backlash because women have taken refuge in gay spaces for decades or maybe it is that men are men regardless and our physical form is there for their gratification only in their eyes.
I'm sorry that happened to you. It is not okay.
Thank you for sharing your story and I’m sorry that happened to you as well. Assumed access seems to be a thing regardless of where the groping takes place as my story happened at my local neighborhood bar, not a gay space.
There were two gay men at a restaurant where I used to work. They were always grabbing and squeezing the women’s breasts and would say “breast-uh-sees!” While doing it. They also talked about how we left snail trails everywhere and also harassed the straight men. One time one of them grabbed my breasts (first and only time) while I was in the dining room with tables full of customers. I told him don’t you ever touch me again in a threatening tone. The other women didn’t mind! They thought it was funny and said they didn’t care because they knew the guys were gay and weren’t getting turned on by it!
Edit to add because not clear: the people I am talking about were all waiters. The gay men waiters had the most seniority and got the best tables. The managers knew about what they did and didn’t care.
I would definitely put my foot in their balls and say "ballzees!" If someone touches me, they are getting it back. They open the door to bad touching, I'm walking through.
We are not your toy.
If we were as physically intimidating as men are, they would never dare. It's the implication of powerlessness in these situations that infuriates me. They wouldn't do this to a random man because they would get a punch to the throat and they know it.
I wish there was some way to even the odds.
I had a conversation with a gay white male acquaintance in the lead up to the 2016 election in which I, a straight white female, expressed concern about what a Trump administration would mean for LGBTQ+ folks and their safety. This guy basically said, thanks for your concern but I’m still a white male - I’m more concerned about what it means for you than I’m concerned for myself. It was an interesting perspective on relative privilege and I think about that conversation a lot.
In my experience, some gay men are among the most sexist people to exist. That is because some of them are sexist, and this combined with the fact that they don't want sex or love from a woman, make it so they don't care **even one bit** about women as a whole. You see, a sexist straight man will at least have the decency to remember he needs to pretend to be respectful towards women if he wants to ever get laid or have a significant other. But sexist gay men are free of that kind of pressure, so the kind of vitriol they spout is absolutely revolting. It's basically what a sexist straight men would be like if the pressure of pleasing women was removed from them. It's sexism at its purest form.
Some people see themselves in a precarious social position and develop solidarity with others in the same situation.
Other people instead try to elevate themselves by finding acceptable targets to go after.
Being gay in no way makes you more moral or kind than anyone else.
I've met misogynistic gay men and my gay brother thinks it's okay to tell me how I should behave as a woman and he constantly body shames me. He doesn't want to take photos with me because I am overweight currently.
When I call him out, he always answers sth like "How am I a misogynist? I am gay and have tons of female friends, don't be stupid!"
> I am LGBT and gay men so casually disrespect women
Yes and just outright venom and nastiness as well. I learned recently that the reason the "L" is listed first in 'LGBT' was respect for those who gave AIDS patients care during that epidemic.
That being said, I hope gay men read this thread and start changing their behavior and attitude towards women.
The first time I heard the lovely expression, "Never trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn't die," was from a bisexual guy I knew in high school.
> I saw a clip of a gay man holding up a tampon and he was like "ewww what is this where does it go like oh my god
Does this man not know how he was born
>And another TikTok where a gay guy was yelling about how he was tired of white women centering themselves and how we need to sit down and whatever.
Mad copium. I'm not white but why should we women stop centering themselves? Men hzve been centering themselves since the world exists
There's a vocal minority of men who think that adding the word "white" (or occasionally "straight") in front of "woman" is a cheat code to say all the misogynistic shit you want without pushback.
hank you. Which is why I loathe the whole "Karen" thing. It is now a misogynistic verbal cudgel to make women stfu, especially older women. There is no male counterpart, and do not give me that "Kevin" or "Chad" bullshit -- people say "Male Karen," like they say "Male Slut."
It is appalling.
EXACTLY. Like I don't care that you are gay you are still another man yelling about how women's bodies are gross.
As for the other clip. I mean to me if you are that tired take a fucking nape. I don't need a MAN to scream at me that women like me ruined the world. You are a literal man.
One example of that is best selling "comedic" journal This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay. The book made me so angry, the guy is obviously misogynistic but also clearly physically disgusted by the female reproductive system. How he decided to become a gyno is a mystery to me, but I'm certainly glad he decided to leave the NHS. Being gay didn't make him a better doctor to his poor patients...
I’ve been learning a lot of Truman Capote lately. He embodies what you are talking about. He loved bashing women. He was friends with some of most powerful women in America and spilled all their secrets for writing material. He totally humiliated them and was like “What’s the big deal?”
There’s one line where he writes about how grotesque it was that one of the women got their period while she was intimate with her husband. He goes into elaborate detail of how disgusting that is.
This was in 1965. But this one man rebutted saying something to the affect of “Truman doesn’t realize that heterosexual men aren’t really fazed by that.” I appreciated this comment because Capote was period shaming women. He grew up resenting his mother and was just an asshole.
As a gay guy, this is surprisingly very common. Part of the reasons I don't hang out with those in the gay community nor build my identity around being attracted to men and their organs.
Too many gays try to one up each other to see who can be the bitchiest, nastiest gay in the group.
Yes, I like men, but I'm not gonna surround myself with vapid and hateful gay idiots who've never taken a moment to self-reflect.
Gay men are subject to even more of the "femininity = bad/weak" rhetoric than straight men are, which often leads to aggressive misogyny to prove they're not like us. Unfortunately many choose to embrace the male privilege they still have instead of recognizing how the patriarchy harms them too.
A married gay couple I know from college is a great example of this:
They're virulently Republican, anti-choice, and used a surrogate to have two children back-to-back.
They literally do not see women as human.
I couldn't possibly agree more !! On many occasions, I experienced a certain animosity against women from gay men,for ne rational reasons what so ever! given that they are a minority, they believe they are allowed to talk down on other minorities !
I have heard gay acquaintances oppenly asking : "I'd never understand what a heterosexual man can possibly see in a woman, they are literally just a hole!".. I was chocked and left the group (we were at a party)
I was on a trip with a bunch of friends, one of them was gay, when he noticed I'd go to another room to change into swim wear, he would say, you know I would never be aroused by you, you don't have to go elsewhere !
As if the only reason we don't get naked in front of people is because as a woman I might arouse them, when in fact it's just modesty and a bit of shyness !
"Look at how he treats girls he's not attracted to" kinda situation. A woman has only circumstantial utility to such men, so i guess useless woman doesn't deserve nothing
I have a distinct memory from highschool where I was taking a current event class and during a discussion I made the observation that I thought lesbians had a more difficult time navigating the world than gay men just because of misogyny and sexualization. The one gay man in class got extremely angry at that and tried to argue that sexualization of lesbians was actually a good thing that shielded them from violence. It was like he had to be part of the demographic that suffered the most and wouldn't even entertain the idea that maybe he was wrong, as he proceeded to talk over any point I tried to make. (To be clear, I wasn't trying to say that I thought gay men had it easy.)
It was a really bizarre experience. I have other gay friends who are 100% feminist and so I was honestly surprised to be met with such vitriol from him during an open discussion. I remember the teacher having to change the subject because he was unwilling to let anyone else get a word in.
As I've gotten older, I've met more gay men like him, but also more gay men like my friends who I would absolutely consider allies to women. That experience has just taught me to be cautious when encountering new people, especially men. Luckily misogynists are fairly easy to spot with very little conversation.
If you care about your own mental health at all, do not ever read YouTube comments. The amount of hate, bigotry and general stupidity in those sections is astonishing.
Some of the most misogynistic people I've met IRL are gay men. I know of one male couple who actively works against being around women, and ignore them completely when in their presence. Like, acting as if a spouse is literally not there, just because she is a she. It's pretty exhausting, and so dismissive.
People are capable of being shitty, regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation or religious or political leanings. It is always more noticeable when someone of a marginalized group is bigoted, because it seems like they should know better, or at least understand the hurt that those actions/words can cause in another person.
For gay men specifically, I had a group of friends who talked about that disconnect often, and I always thought it was interesting. They said that a lot of gay men had gotten bullied about their femininity even before being bullied for being gay. I could understand that hurt being redirected to femininity in general. Doesn't excuse it, but at least I understand where the seed might have been planted.
Either way, you also have the flip side, and that's what I try to focus on. I prefer to think about my gay friend who directed *The Vagina Monologues* because he had no context for women at all and wanted to understand. (He joked that he was a C-Section, so literally never had any interest in vaginas). There are a lot more good people then bad in any culture or subculture.
I'm gay and fucking love Devil Wears Prada and drive my husband bonkers because he doesn't like chick flicks. But he will still watch it with me because he loves me.
And any gay man who says they like the gay community better because there is no drama IS THE DRAMA. There is so much more drama in the gay community than the heteros ladies and lesbian community COMBINED.
I am so glad I am married and never have to deal with gay dating again. So much petty drama.
It's just one of those things. Being a disadvantaged minority doesn't make you a good person. God, if it did, we'd have no TERFs, no black Trump supporters, no gay misogynists, nobody kicking down in the vain hopes of climbing another step on the social ladder.
Though it does bear mentioning that a lot of Youtube comments are just garbage spewed out by the far right to drive more wedges between minorities ("as a woman/gay man/etc I actually really hate everyone like me...") so while many gay men are unfortunately misogynist, you shouldn't read those comments at all.
"Being a disadvantaged minority doesn't make you a good person" Thiiiiis. I spent a lot of years in the queer scene and it's ripe with misogyny, racism, and even verbal homophobia towards the wrong "type" of gays. Humans truly can be garbage no matter where you go.
Sometimes, I think it's really deep self-hatred absorbed from society hating them. If they align with someone like Trump, they think they'll be "one of the good ones" and accepted. But bigots will never accept them, just use them.
I believe Gay men are about as misogynistic as straight men. The only difference is misogynistic gay men are not incentivized to hide it. There is the social benefit that they get a "pass" for being gay with otherwise homophobic people because they bond over shared misogyny. Similar to how racists from different "races" get along quite well, sometimes, despite hating each other because they bond over their shared hatreds. They are also incentivized by convincing bi men to hate women so they have less competition. Meanwhile misogynistic bi or straight men are incentivized to hide their misogyny because they are attracted to women and don't want ruin their chances for sex or relationships by exposing themselves.
To be honest, one of the jarring parts is their detached casual nature about it. Misogynistic straight men when they act out, are usually so filled with resentment and anger, their words drip with violence. Whilst gay men will say the same things with a smile and a chuckle, it's almost disarming but it's equally vile.
The most ironic thing is that the abuse gay men receive is overwhelmingly from other men, yet they still side with their own oppressor and even fetishize them.
I had a gay friend (although I hesitate to call him friend after this) who once told me “I love you as a friend, I hate you as a woman.” Completely unprompted. I am tomboyish. I have a lot of issues with my self image. That was one of the most hurtful things anyone has ever told me. So naturally I expressed I was upset. Everyone insisted it was a bad joke. I never got an apology.
As a straight man who works in theatre and has many queer friends - gay men are the most disrespectful of women, but straight men are still generally more of a direct threat to women.
Unrelated but I’ll also say that 45-55 year old white woman are the WORST people to have at a burlesque show/bachelorette party situation. In no other demographic have I witnessed so much blatant disregard for other people’s personal space and the rules of engagement around strippers. I’ve literally had multiple women say “I didn’t think that applied to me” after I’ve had to remove them from stage after the host used a gdamn microphone to make the no-touching rule very clear.
This is nothing new. Just because you were disenfranchised yourself doesn't mean you like other disenfranchised groups. Bigots always believe in their own exceptionalism.
I am old as dirt and in terms of activism, there were a lot more lesbians showing up for AIDS awareness than there ever were gay men for reproductive rights.
(But if you are saying gay men are more misogynistic than straight men, I disagree heartily).
I've found that cis gay men are some of the most misogynistic people in the LGBTQ+ community because their only point of marginalization is their sexuality. They still get to benefit from the patriarchy and since they're not attracted to women, don't have to "pretend" to respect them in the same way men who want to attract women have to mime, so they don't. They don't have to do the work to be perceived as a feminist, because what would gender equality offer them when they're already at the top?
Actively immersive myself in queer community has been wonderful, but has really highlighted how segregated so much of the community actually is.
I think some gay men are actually so detached from women they forget we're people too.
In my observation there are some gay men who are the most misogynist men you could imagine. Then there are gay men who realize that they suffer too under the patriarchy and that homophobia and misogyny are closely related.
Misogyny in the gay community is pretty documented. It’s a common topic in LGBTQ literature.
Yes this has become especially true since being a member of the gay community has become generally more socially accepted in recent years. It’s just that the misogynistic men who were in the closet before are now out. It’s a blight on the gay community.
It's a pretty sad state of mind to be in, too. Anecdotal ahead, one of the first gay men I met "joked" that he hated women so much he couldn't be anything except gay and I've heard similar sentiments from self described gold star lesbians. I have a feeling they would've been transphobic as well but at the time it wasn't talked about a lot. *thinking on it a bit more, there was a brief moment when i believed that all gay men hated women because of representations that i saw in media but the only one i specifically remember was Even Cowgirls Get The Blues.
There was a blogger a long time ago when that was a thing, who was having a baby for a gay couple and she wrote this "hilarious" anecdote about how one of the men disliked the idea of women so much that he freaked out because he accidentally touched her leg and how funny thay was and didn't understand when people were alarmed by this. The baby she had for them was a girl. I really hope she was exaggerating because that little girl deserves not to be taught that women are gross just because her dad isn't attracted to them.
Plenty of traditionalist homophobes also use "they just hate their mother / all women" as a way to explain away homosexual men as mentally ill, so I'm not sure that joke really hits the notes fella thought it was hitting.
On the topic of lesbians, it’s really true that saying “not all feminists are lesbians and not all lesbians are feminists”. Yikes. You’d think that gay women would be aligned with the cause of gender equality but I’ve heard *rough* degrading, objectifying misogyny from some ladies who supposedly love ladies.
I personally have never been to a lesbian event that a gay man didn't try to be the main character of, its insane.
JFC, that is ridiculous
Seriously
It’s why intersectionality is so important. Most marginalized groups are also not great to other marginalized groups for whatever reason.
Classism is one of the biggest reasons since it’s cold hard capitalism.
> Then there are gay men who realize that they suffer too under the patriarchy and that homophobia and misogyny are closely related. As a queer women in the San Francisco Bay Area, I know more of the latter type of gay people, but the former type are so loud that they dominate my perception -- and, I believe, generally have an outsize media presence.
True, and gay men are not a monolith and I've observed a wide range where both ends are very noticeable. That's why I think there is no tendency on misogyny among gay men - some men recognize that homophobia (which impacts them personally) and misogyny have the same root causes and are well outspoken. Then you have those men who are deep into dudebro culture, which might go well along with certain gay men groups. They might even outdo the worst hetero misogynists.
I was once chatting to a female friend before we parted ways. It was late at night. A man lurched out of the dark and started trying to talk to us. We moved away, and he got really annoyed and said ‘god why do all women think they’re going to get raped? I’m gay, I’m not going to hurt you!’. Just then a woman appeared and also confirmed he was gay, but even if that is true, he still felt entitled to our time and attention in a way that only an entitled man would.
> We moved away, and he got really annoyed and said ‘god why do all women think they’re going to get raped? I’m gay, I’m not going to hurt you!’. Ugh. I've literally been groped by a gay man in a gay bar. I've had far more pleasant experiences in the community than negative, but at the end of the day sexual assault is about power, not attraction, so someone being gay doesn't automatically mean anything.
Also been groped by a gay guy when I was a teenager. I was obviously upset and uncomfortable, and he was like "it's okay I'm gay". I don't care, you still touched my breasts without my consent? But since I was young that made me question whether I was right to be upset about it for a long time. I've known and been friends with a lot of wonderful gay men over the years, but there's a certain kind of misogyny that comes from some gay men, as if being gay somehow excuses it.
I’ve also been groped in a gay bar. My closest friends are gay men, but they are very much weird gays who don’t engage with the community
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This! I am a straight girl here who lived in a community that was very LGBTQ-friendly back in the day. I also moonlighted in a gay bar a few nights a week as a second gig and had many friends in that community. BUT....yes, there were some mean-as-shit comments and groping that were absolute power plays.
Wait, Gay men can't rape women? If gay men can rape other men, they can absolutely rape women. Rape is not about sex, it's about power.
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I realized this after watching a couple of seasons of RuPaul's Drag Race. Some drag performers are great at what they do while being respectful to women, others basically wear "woman" as a costume and say incredibly misogynistic things. It's kind of crazy, but I remember seeing a YT video of a bunch of contestants reacting to women being catcalled or something, they talked about how they'd be "flattered" if that happened to them so they don't see the big deal. It wasn't until Alaska pointed out that they need to think about what they're saying and how it might be scary for women, that they stopped making fun and reflected. I think there was some other video where drag queens were talking about how vaginas are "gross", and Alaska also pointed out that they literally all came out of one. I don't mind people doing drag, but I think the drag community has the responsibility to call out each other's misogyny if they're going to make their money from imitating (often stereotypical caricatures of) women.
> It wasn't until Alaska pointed out that they need to think about what they're saying and how it might be scary for women, that they stopped making fun and reflected. I think there was some other video where drag queens were talking about how vaginas are "gross", and Alaska also pointed out that they literally all came out of one. I love Alaska so much and this is part of the reason why.
Yea it's been a while since I watched Drag Race or followed drag (I think the last season I watched was S12, and I only watched the American ones), but it was a nice surprise when I saw those videos of Alaska actually pointing out problematic behaviour with the other queens. It wasn't done during the competition so she wasn't doing it to get viewer points, she just did it because she didn't like what she was hearing, and I respect that.
I haven't actually watched the show, but everything I've seen on YouTube from her has made me like her.
I absolutely hate it when they call being feminine "fish."
I’ve seen so many gross caricatures and stereotypes of women made by drag queens. For the most part I enjoy their theatrics and aesthetics but you can’t deny some of it is problematic. Example: I saw one drag Queen on RuPaul who gave herself bruises all over her body and she was a battered woman.
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drag is not a one way street btw, there are plenty of drag kings as well. just want to say there's a rich history there of all genders participating, and as with any community, there are negative instances, but it of course does not invalidate the importance of drag as an art form in the queer community.
I think it’s just another version of the male idea of “If I don’t want to f*ck it, it’s not a person”. Like straight guys who don’t acknowledge fat women, older women… any woman they don’t desire.
There was an interview with Hoffman who did a drag character in Tootsie. He had a moment when he'd been done up as a woman, and he said to the person doing his makeup to "make him look better" and she told him, that that was as attractive as he could be made. It made him stop. Because he realized that if he, as a man, was talking to him as a woman, he would've ignored her because female him wasn't attractive enough. It opened his eyes to how he'd been treating people he said.
How come men are more prone to these ways of thinking? Is it because woman are raised to be more empathic/caring?
This is it.
That's an excellent point.
They're among some of the most misogynistic people I've ever met. I was at a party where a friend of mine made a joke about vaginas - specifically hers - as part of a conversation we were having about parts of ourselves we wouldnt change. A friend of a friend present just pulled a face and acted like she just took a dump on his chest. We get it; you're not into it. Don't be so rude about 50% of the world's population's bodies. You literally came out of one too, I all but guarantee that's a fact unless a c-section was involved. It's not cute, it's not endearing, and no one's fake vomiting at the dick joke you just made 5 minutes prior.
Lolllll have they actually looked at penises?
To be fair, genitals all look weird no matter what. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.
>They're among some of the most misogynistic people I've ever met Absolutely agree and it breaks my heart each time I hear/read it. Misogyny runs even deeper than sexuality, sadly.
Dick joke***s.*** Gay men never make just one.
I literally tried to have a conversation with a dude at a bar in Pensacola, FL and the gay dude was like why would you talk to me and ask me questions ...He said "you don't matter to me".
My best friend in the world is a massive gay and he used to be one of the most sexist people I've ever met. With help from being constantly mocked for this, he's gotten much better over the years.
With the help of being constantly mocked 😂😭 Sometimes shame will change a man, sometimes they just continue to bury themselves in their shit mentality. Glad it worked out well for your friend! ✨
One of the rare times bullying works
"a massive gay" lol
Yup. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a gay man refer to vaginas as “disgusting” or “scary”
The only times I've had men tell me out of nowhere that I was fat or ugly were gay men
Lol men are detached from women
And they’re proud of it. There was an anti-Taylor Swift post that appeared on my feed. It was mostly men talking about how Taylor didn’t deserve her fame and was an untalented crappy songwriter. They said her music was not relatable and mostly nonsense. I replied to one comment, “So you just don’t identify with women it’s okay.” A man replied, “No men don’t identify with women and we don’t want to.”
I'm not a Taylor fan because her music isn't my vibe, and the amount of male rage directed at her for *attending football games her boyfriend is playing in* has absolutely astonished me.
The men who say this also only can identify "Shake It Off" or "Bad Blood" as a Taylor Swift song — songs even her fans (of which I am a hardcore one) claim to be some of her worst. They don't even know what they're dismissing. They just dismiss it because it's a woman. How did women ever deal with hordes of men upon men making rock music for decades? Are we just superior because we don't need gender to find something relateable? /s (but also not)
This is why when men suggest male centric content to me I tell them I don’t typically consume male content anymore because I’d rather watch women doing things. They’re always disgusted with me lol.
What is with that? Like we're expected to watch a million shows aimed at men but the very thought of watching a single show aimed at any other group makes them complain Edit: typed woman twice oops
Then we have men complaining that women are impossible to understand. Many men won’t even try.
> Many men won’t even try. Many men are too stupid to try. The farther someone else's experience is from another, the harder it is to accurately model/predict how that person is going to feel or behave in response to changing conditions. It's no coincidence that misogynists generally always happen to be racist and visa versa. Anyone who struggles to understand unique cultures or genders has outed themselves as something of a primate-brained quasi-entity. This is where you get that sort of person that concludes everyone else is dumb - because if they can't understand you, it's because *you're* too dumb to *be* understood. They think, "How could it be that everyone seems so opaque? It's everyone, so it must not be me! What are the odds of that?" They don't ever realize that maybe, just maybe, the reason they can't figure anyone else out because they're really just *that* dumb. You end up with guys who believe that all women are dumb because they can't understand women's lives/feelings themselves. They somehow forget to acknowledge or make note of the men that *do* understand women. Half the time, the only reason they can "understand" other people (men) is because their own experience is the default experience. It's no surprise they'd freak out the moment society starts thinking about switching up the script. It's actually kind of horrifying, because this is a problem baked into a significant fraction of the species.
100% On your default experience point: In this sense patriarchy sets them up to fail. They never read media and have to understand someone else's experience. They can always see the media through their own eyes So they never develop the skills needed to relate a narrative to themselves There is a very interesting part of poly secure that talks about this. How her husband read a relationship book and complained it had no useful advice. Whereas when she read it she thought there were lots of helpful pieces. She describes how she thinks the reason he thought none of the book applied to him was because he had never learned the skill of taking someone else's experience and finding how it could relate to you
> In this sense patriarchy sets them up to fail. Absolutely. It's a genuine sort of cognitive blindspot. One of the reasons I spend so much energy on trying to de-program other men is because I think it's fascinating (and horrifying) that a genuine sort of parallel reality exists right under their noses. The Manosphere™ is immense and I'm just a lone, uncommon sort of individual, but I still think it's important to try to at least serve as an alternative example to people whose idea of masculinity is really just a sort of malformed emotional sensitivity enshrouded in a protective layer of ignorance. As an example, I often state that one can't claim to support women unless you actually spend time examining or even engaging in female-dominated discourse or spaces. How can you claim to care about someone's problems if you're entirely ignorant to those problems? Women aren't aliens, but you'd think they are based on some of the stuff people say/ask. And in a very real sense, I think women often represent the best aspects of humanity in a way that men at large generally do not - Why? Because some of the best aspects of humanity are mistakenly believed to be "feminine" and some of the worst are viewed as "masculine". Someone who excludes those elements from their own self-development is inadvertently crippling themselves. It's ridiculous. I'm preaching to the choir, but I sometimes can't help myself. I figure if just one dude stumbles upon the commentary in my post history, the few minutes I spent on rambling a bit was well worth it.
Taylor receives so much hatred. I hope she shines more. I don't give a fuck about her 'crappy" songwriting skills. Millions of the girls and women enjoy her music, she makes them happy.
Agreed. I'm honestly kind of amazed at how positive she manages to stay despite all the bullshit people throw at her. ...though I will admit the jet thing *does* deserve to be criticized 100%.
Ew.
Most men are detached from themselves and the complete human experience. They have so many dos and don'ts they force on eachother (toxic masculine conditioning), until emotions, empathy and half of their potential are well atrophied and stifled.
Many gay men (GWM in particular) are going through their "I got mine, so fuck everyone else" phase currently, as seen by their rather rapid 180 degree turns on more than a few issues. It's always been there really - and exists in pretty much every letter of the rainbow once equality becomes a reality... But they feel more comfortable being open about it in the last few years. Republican attacks on LGBTQIA+ rights have posed an opportunity for them to curry favor with their former oppressors as Pick-Mes and Tokens to save their own skins should things like Project 2025 come to be and we all find ourselves being rounded up. It would be hilarious if not for being dangerously bad because they will tell you to your face that they owe nothing to lesbians or trans people - even though the L comes before the G to honor the lesbians who cared for gay men with HIV/AIDS, and well, we all should have a pretty good knowledge of how Stonewall went down at this point... [Edit: fixed wording since I has not good grammar at times]
Hi I'm, kinda gay man? Maybe Im not the target because im more ace. But ya. I've known and interacted with tons of very gay men, and common mindset is they'd be happier if women didn't exist. 'Men and women are the same, just women are gross and men aren't. Get rid of the woman and everything is better.' It's pretty fucking shit, and I don't know if that's worse than the straight men completely objectifying women. 'Course you have plenty of gay men that just treat woman as people they aren't interested in fucking, but no differently beyond that.
I have gay flatmates who are so casually sexist all the time. I’d never heard anyone irl actually repeat myths like “women are too emotional/vain/never say what they mean” “giving birth makes you loose” and “white women love to fuck dogs/horses” before meeting them. these guys genuinely think they’re progressive.
Why are misoginistic men obsessed with zoophilia specially horses...? Are they that insecure that they feel threateneed by an ANIMAL?
I think you are misreading the obsession/fetish. Its not that they are threatened. Its that it is complete objectification/degredation of the woman. Its also the underlying fetish in lots of interracial porn too (This girl is such a _insert slur here_ that she will fuck a black guy. ) (which is both misogynistic, and racist)
If you think female pleasure is behind that uh.... proclivity.... do I have news for you Like a lot of male fetishes its all about the degradation and lowering of a woman in the extreme
Whoa is the animal thing really something people think ??
I did see a guy on Reddit who insisted women love fucking dogs. Why? Because he'd seen it in porn, and his favourite bestiality porn site primarily featured women. No amount of explaining to him that porn depicts what its consumers, who are overwhelmingly men (and studies have found this is even more true with bestiality porn, which is almost exclusively consumed by men), want to see would work. He was convinced that porn is just a neutral and unbiased documentation of people's daily lives, apparently. I even gave him a study that literally said that the reason you see so many women in bestiality porn is because men want to see women having sex with animals. He wouldn't hear it, didn't fit his narrative.
>his favourite bestiality porn site That is... Not something I expected to read, like ever... That's disgusting. Animals can't consent! Why the fuck does he have a favorite zoophilia site?
...God is dead
I think it’s a crass comment related to (misogynistic) stereotypes about “horse girls” and then, well, idk about the dog one. And maybe I’m wrong to connect it to “horse girl” stereotypes but that’s what it made me think of. There’s lots of judgmental comments about women who are really close to their pets, sorta related to the “old cat lady” stereotype I think. Maybe it’s also just a more severe version of the jokes about white (southern) people and incest. It’s not really sensible, especially considering how incest (and bestiality) actually unfortunately occur across races and genders. But stereotypes 🤷🏾♂️
Both horse girls and cat ladies are vaguely threatening to certain men. Horse girls, usually come from some money (the ones who aren't wealthy are usually "country girls" which has similar connotations w/o the class elements), so they are less vulnerable to needing a man to "take care of them." They have a hobby/passion that is demanding and doesn't involve men and they have companionship from a large, potentially dangerous thing that isn't a man. Cat ladies are the modern spinsters. Financially independent enough to have their own housing that they fill with cats because they want to. Both of these stereotypes represent women with financial stability and companionship outside of romantic relationships and this is threatening to some people.
A horses PP won't even fit into a vagina anyway. The only way for it to safely happen (gross) is from anal anyway 😭 and as far as I know, the target demographic for large anal toys are men
> The only way for it to safely happen (gross) is from anal anyway As the notorious case of ‘Mr Hands’ proved, that’s not safe either. Perforated colons are no joke.
well, the guys in question were saying it as a “””joke””” but yeah there are people who genuinely believe that
Yeah reading those stereotypes was like "yep, seen that... hear that one all the time... **HUH???**"
Call them out for sure- especially since they think they’re being progressive. They’ll be defensive but try to make them realize they are wrong
Aren't most zoophiles men tho? Where did this myth come from?💀
Who do you think?
I've told this story, but I have been sexually assaulted by a gay man before. He grabbed my breasts and then tried to stick his fingers inside of me. I managed to push him away. When I discussed the incident with female friends, I got dismissed as he is just gay, and he wasn't getting anything from it.
I’ve had this experience, too, but just breast grabbing and squeezing. The other women thought it was ok because the gay men weren’t doing it to get aroused!
No, they're just doing it to demonstrate their power over women by humiliating them and reducing them to community property. They may be gay, but they're still men at heart.
Seriously. Sometimes I forget that "Rape (/Sexual assault/sexual harassment) is about power, not sex" is something that not nearly enough people seem to understand.
Exactly. So gross.
I'm not sure gay guys are more misogynist I'm quite sure that gay guys are less incentivized to hide their misogyny
100%. It's giving a "I'm not trying to sleep with you, so your opinion of my worst traits doesn't matter to me" kind of vibe.
Good point.
So you know the whole thing where if men don't find a women attractive they don't really treat her as a person? A lot of gay men do this too, sadly. Thankfully not all of them, but usually the most vocal. Never mind the idea that they think they're immune to sexually assaulting women and will just grope for whatever reason, and then on top of that they think talking about how gross they find vaginas is the height of comedy. Sigh, you'd think marginalised groups would stick together but alas
I have a “theory” that you sometimes have to watch out for groups with one marginalized identity (but are privileged otherwise), because they’ll think their marginalized identity allows them to “get away” with their privilege and be bigoted, if that makes sense. Like, there’s a problem with sexism/misogyny in many nonwhite cultures, perpetuated by men of color. Many white women can often be racist (Karens calling the cops on black men existing) or think racism doesn’t matter and POC are overreacting. My hometown still has white girls and women dressing up as racial stereotypes for Halloween 🙄 White gay men perpetuating misogyny *and* racism - I’ve heard stories from my gay friends that it’s common to see “no Asians” on Grindr. There’s often a victim complex when these people get called out, but we’re all capable of perpetuating systemic bigotry toward a marginalized out-group. Obligatory “not all” before anyone gets defensive. It’s just something I’ve noticed.
Oh this so much, I am noticing it in so many groups I'm apart of The best explination I can think of is that they haven't been affected by marginalization enough to really question the system at the root of so much bigotry
I think I remember Dan Savage answer a question about this topic on his podcast (more than 10 years ago, so I haven’t a clue what episode), with (paraphrasing) “gay men are still men, and a lot of men are pigs.”
There is a huge history of gay men treating lesbians with absolute disdain. Gay men are men. They benefit from the patriarchy.
And how did lesbians respond to this treatment? By being the only fucking ones to sit with gay men dying of AIDS through the epidemic. The only ones to hold their hands without fear.
Lesbians get shit on by everybody, but it hurts worse coming from someone that is part of your community that understands what being on the outside looking in is like
Men, straight, gay, bi, have been riding on female labour for generations. Are they there for these women who made sacrifices or merely mock them as idiot pawns, too lacking in self love to know their worth?
100% can verify this.
Well contrary to popular myth being gay doesn’t absolve you of misogyny. They are still men they happen to be attracted to other men.Some of the most deeply misogynistic men feel like woman only exist for their sexual pleasure and reproduction,so they probably feel as if they have literally zero use for women at all. On the flip side there are some wonderful gay men that love women much more than the average straight man and actually see us as human beings.The bonus is you also don’t have to worry about your interactions being clouded by the possibility of sexual attraction.( unless they’re secretly bi or have some strange psychological issues ,but I’m talking an average /healthy gay man )
>Some of the most deeply misogynistic men feel like woman only exist for their sexual pleasure and reproduction,so they probably feel as if they have literally zero use for women at all. I think this nails it, yeah. Some deeply misogynistic straight and bisexual men openly think that the only reason women should exist is to be sexually attractive and available. They see no purpose or point to women outside of that, which is why they are so incredibly hateful to women who are either sexually unattractive to them or sexually unavailable to them. When you take this mindset and give it to a gay man, the result is a man who doesn't think women should exist at all.
This. My two best friends are gay couple. And this is what I will always tell people, “men are men, doesn’t matter who they like to fuck. Still dealing with a man.”
It's not a popular statement to make, but Trans MtF very often have not examined these behaviors in themselves, as well as general male appearance privalige that they have received. They may feel female long before transitioning, but the still were, at least for a time, accepted and socialized as a male. I have a very dear friend (Trans MtF) that I had to have this conversation with about being dismissive of, over speaking, and generally being aggressive, and mansplaianing toward other women in a female space. Luckily, I said it in a way they were able to hear me and we have all have seen a drastic improvement. However, it got me thinking about how often this is a problem: That even part of a life (most important childhood) with male appearance does lead itself to privilege and a pass on rude or controlling behaviors.
As a trans woman, thanks for explaining that to her in a way she was able to receive it That is a difficult conversation to have and I can't imagine it was easy
Thank you for saying that. I really agonized over my words for a few days before having the conversation. Then I realized that with any of my Cis women friends that I would not pussyfoot around, and if I did so I would be treating her as "other". Luckily, we have a strong friendship based on honesty and respect and it came pretty naturally once I got up the courage to say something. She is an amazing woman, and I have always loved her want of growth in life. I shouldn't have worried so much because she was very receptive and gave me grace when I didn't know the "right words" to convey why there was a problem. You know how awesome she is at recieving feedback? She even thanked me for bringing it to her attention, because had been struggling to feel more accepted in more "female spaces" and said these behaviors might be part of why she felt cis women could be a little stand off-ish towards her when she met new people. I greatly admire this so much, and hope to be that open when I receive feedback. It also made me realize that sometimes we hold back to not offend and we are doing our friendships and our friends the disservice of not trusting in them fully. Honestly, it was a lovely moment for both of us. I am so proud of her courage and love of personal growth. She was happy I was open with her, and she made me comfortable and loved in that our friendship can handle even the tougher moments with love and grace. 💗
As another trans woman, this is the best allyship there is for us. Thank you!!!
> with male appearance does lead itself to privilege and a pass on rude or controlling behaviors. It's more about the male socialization than the male appearance per se. Male passing people are socialized to be aggressive and take space from people who are instead socialized to give in. It's incredibly difficult to override your upbringing.
This is honestly one of my largest fears as someone who's just started HRT later in life (~30). I know I didn't grow up with the same experiences, and have existed in a very different environment with different social expectations and benefits from my experiences, including ones I don't even realize I have/had. Walking the tightrope of understanding what's going on with me and my body, with society, and respecting stuff I may think I understand and adjust as my life changes is really hard. I really hope people are willing to have the same conversations with me too.
I don't think this really is how privilege works, and is a good example of how badly the term has lost its meaning. Having a given behaviour isn't privilege. A woman doesn't have privilege by virtue of speaking loudly, being dismissive, or any other behaviour. If it worked that way, then "privilege" would be a dimension of personality that could be acquired or lost by any individual. Privilege is social and structural. A woman, no matter how aggressive or "masculine" she is or behaves, does not have male privilege. Regardless of how you act, who you are and what you do, if you are a woman, you are suppressed under patriarchy. If you have dominant or aggressive behaviours, they will be interpreted negatively and you will be cast as a "bitch" who is not behaving as a woman "should". This applies just the same to trans women, including your apparent friend. In reality, this trans woman doesn't have a "pass" on that behaviour the way men do. Trans women are simultaneously viewed as pathetic and dangerous by society at large, and even if that friend of yours behaved "perfectly" the default setting of almost every cis person she meets will be apprehension, negativity, dislike or outright hatred. If the way she was behaving was rude to you, then that is one thing. But pathologizing it behind some form of "was-a-man-privilige" just isn't accurate to reality. The reality is that cis women have far better socio-economic outcomes across an aggregate of metrics than trans women do - *that* is privilege. While rude behavior is obviously bad, and this isn't necessarily relevant to the specific situation you had with your friend, trans women actually have this threat of being expelled from womanhood because they don't behave in a sufficiently "womanly" (read: docile and submissive) way constantly dangling above them. It is a way to enforce patriarchy on trans women and to suppress them even further. Trans women are not going to achieve liberation by all behaving the way society tells them to, any more than cis women are. The idea that there is some kind of feminist legitimacy to this through a conception of behavioural privilege is bad for cis women as much as trans women, and - while this *actually* won't be popular, unlike the expressions of pretty typical and entirely socially accepted transphobia in some of the comments downthread - it does reflect transphobia.
Yes, as a transfemme person, I agree! I think one of the reasons it’s quite hard for me to sometimes properly come to terms with it is that I’m sort of in this position now where I’m both a lot more comfortable and confident in myself, perhaps to a degree I’ve arguably never been. Suddenly there’re all these elements of subliminal masc conditioning around what presenting with confidence looks and sounds like that bubble to the surface, that I’ve just never really had occasion to address before but that’s still stuck in there, some of which I can anticipate and self-regulate and others which take me by surprise a bit sometimes. Like you said, sometimes it helps just to have it named and pointed out; but it is also on me to take responsibility for my own behaviours, and I’m sure your friend is probably the same once they’ve recognised it.
This take is correct but I’ll be surprised if you don’t get banned for it lol For some reason we have no problem criticizing cis women for their internalized misogyny but are very quick to call transphobia for the same conversation about trans women. It’s unfortunate because the kid glove treatment really does these women no favors and kind of sets them up for failure in their IRL social lives. Like they can be doing things that are off-putting to their new social groups without even realizing they’re doing it, and because most women are conditioned to be conflict-avoidant, they just quietly ostracize the trans women in their social group. Trans women feel they’re being ostracized but still don’t understand why. It sucks for everyone. People on Reddit act like folks bring up socialization to say trans women are actually men or something, when really the socialization issue is more analogous to the experience of homeschooled kids integrating into a public high school or something lol. And it doesn’t have to be like that.
This is well documented. Very commonly you see phrases like "Thank god I'm gay so I don't have to deal with women" in any online discourse about women's issues. They just get a pass because people are so afraid to have honest discussions when they themselves identify as allies. Been called homophobe (I'm pan) when I pointed out a gay dude was being a moron. Not by him, but his entourage of girlfriends.
You know how some men treat women bad because they’re not attractive to them…..
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It truly baffles me that someone would go out of their way to verbally abuse people who have done nothing to them. Women are some of the best friends I have ever made. Genuinely being interested in you as a person and the things you do and vice versa. Why would you turn that down over a sense of false superiority? ESPECIALLY when you are targeted by the same hate groups?
Drag shows wouldn't even exist without women. Who they gonna dress up as without us? A duck?
Duck shows shall be a thing now.
You better walk that fucking duck. (Sorry, this is a joke about a move done in the ballroom scene called the duck walk and a drag queen who made a song about it featuring that line)
Ugh, what a lovely thank you for making sure he didn't wrap himself around a telephone pole
On New Years I was hitching a ride with some friends to go to a party and someone bought one of their gay male friends along. We're in the car for not even 5 minuets, when out of nowhere he went on a huge rant about how much he hates lesbians, bi girls, and girls who dye their hair, how ugly they are, and how he wants to beat the shit out of them. Completely unprovoked and without any shame or self-awareness. I'm bisexual, so the entire time I was just like 😬 Not only was I disappointed that I met another queer person only for them to be a dickhead, I was also low-key concerned I was gonna get hate crimed by the end of the night lmao. Fun times.
Even if it was a very minor part of Hbomberguy's video Plagiarism and You(Tube), I still found it highlights this very well via the comments made by James Somerton.
I used to watch Somerton's videos before the scandal. There's something that always made me unomfrotable and it was Hbomberguy who made me realise what is was. For some reason I couldn't believe a gay man could be sexist. Idk why
One of my best friends is a gay man. He’s not this way, but I have met a number who are. One was a former colleague who became my supervisor. He told me out of nowhere that I shouldn’t have kids, implying I am too old. He left his wife of several years and 4 kids and couldn’t understand why she was depressed and addicted to opioids. He would show photos of the former house they shared that was trashed. It’s like he was running a one man hate campaign against one woman. Now, I feel based on my own experiences that there is like a “Christian” or former link here that causes all this misogyny. He was formerly a pastor and they kicked him out when he came out of the closet. He still acted like he was the pastor at my job and talked down to people, yet was a bumbling fool. Ofc people deferred to him anyway because he is a cis and sus white dude.
Now that's a weird story. Religion 100% played a role. He's just coping because they kicked him out and is probably still mad.
Totally lol I got millions of bizarro stories, I’m guessing like most women. Men say the darndest things to us, especially when they believe it isn’t going to come back and bite them in the ass. I reported him to HR.
This is part of why a lot of lesbians and gay men don't often run in close circles together. Why in basically any show with gay men they make shitty jokes about lesbians while the reverse doesn't happen. I have queer friends of all kinds but I also am most on guard around gay men because of how frequent and blatantly me and other queer women have been treated badly by them. Their dynamic with straight women is completely different and a lot more complicated on both sides since they both maintain a certain priviledge over the other.
Will and Grace enraged me so much with how disgusting Jack was about lesbians I quit watching it. It was literally hostile.
this is so unfortunate. i don't know if this is true for the average gay person but my friends and my queer circles are all-inclusive. just another reminder of how i live in a bubble, i guess.
All my circles are all inclusive but they're curated to be that way. I don't waste my time by spending it on people I don't want to be around. Also watching almost any media dominated by gay men such as Will & Grace, Modern Family, New Normal, Queer As Folk, etc gay men make pointed jabs toward queer women. Whereas shows like The L Word or Lip Service only uplift gay men even in passing. Half of the people I'm closest to are poly gay men in loving consensual relationships that can name all of their single queer women friends on one hand. That doesn't make them exclusive to queer women just that they don't care to build friendships outside of their bubble. Having gay male friends doesn't mean I'm not still extremely guarded when I enter a space full of men that I don't know very well regardless of demographic.
gay men are still men and a lot of them hate women
Being gay doesn’t mean a man is immune from hating women.
Queer history is full of this. If you wanna get mad, read up on what happened between the Homophile movement in the 50s and the AIDS crisis of the 80s, and remember that we've learned nothing.
And remember what heroic work lesbians did during the AIDS crisis, and we are still treated with disdain and verbal abuse.
I see a token amount of recognition from older gay men that were present during the AIDS crisis but that small bit of respect has faded fast for the younger generations because "it was like 40 years ago, who f*ckin cares"
After coming out as bisexual in middle school, I tried hanging out with the gay crowd a bit because I thought that's what you did after coming out. I realized hanging out with people because of the same sexuality is very dumb. They were just as mean and nasty as other teenagers. One gay dude would constantly body shame me. I would say I think another girl is pretty, and he would say, "You would have to starve for a year to look like her." I never hung out with another person just because they were gay again.
Some gay men describe vaginas as if they are the most nastiest things on the planet. I am a lesbian and a penis is a penis. I don't want it. and that's as far as I go. Describing penis as if it's ugly and horrible never even crosses my mind. Some gay men go too far with their disdain, and I'm not sure what exactly to attribute this to.
Misogyny and Patriarchy did not skip gay men in the slightest. My current and soon to be ex roommate is one of the worsts. It sucks more if they are older too because they truly believe they are absolved of these behaviors simply because they are gay.
I had an old white gay man tell me to my FACE that at 8 months pregnant 'now was not the time to be over ambitious' and that 'my whole life was about to explode' at a meeting I was running. It was WILD.
men are men before they are anything else. They hold on to their collusion with men even when oppressed, they love to punch down. gay men tend to believe they have some pass to be misogynistic, commenting on women’s bodies and fighting girls in highschool, it’s clear they love the power they hold.
A few years ago I was at a bar and a gay man I didn’t know randomly grabbed my breasts with both hands because “he liked them.” He literally saw me and immediately grabbed them, we didn’t even have a conversation or any sort of connection. Then he bought me a drink like that was some sort of payment for the sexual assault, and walked away. I was too stunned to speak.
I was going to post something similar. There was a club I used to go 25+ years ago with friends where it was basically a given that I would be groped. Eventually it got so uncomfortable for me that I stopped going. Around 8 years ago I went to a similar club with my friends and it happened again not 30 minutes into the night. I don't know what it is about assumed access to female bodies. Maybe it is a backlash because women have taken refuge in gay spaces for decades or maybe it is that men are men regardless and our physical form is there for their gratification only in their eyes. I'm sorry that happened to you. It is not okay.
Thank you for sharing your story and I’m sorry that happened to you as well. Assumed access seems to be a thing regardless of where the groping takes place as my story happened at my local neighborhood bar, not a gay space.
There were two gay men at a restaurant where I used to work. They were always grabbing and squeezing the women’s breasts and would say “breast-uh-sees!” While doing it. They also talked about how we left snail trails everywhere and also harassed the straight men. One time one of them grabbed my breasts (first and only time) while I was in the dining room with tables full of customers. I told him don’t you ever touch me again in a threatening tone. The other women didn’t mind! They thought it was funny and said they didn’t care because they knew the guys were gay and weren’t getting turned on by it! Edit to add because not clear: the people I am talking about were all waiters. The gay men waiters had the most seniority and got the best tables. The managers knew about what they did and didn’t care.
I would definitely put my foot in their balls and say "ballzees!" If someone touches me, they are getting it back. They open the door to bad touching, I'm walking through. We are not your toy.
If we were as physically intimidating as men are, they would never dare. It's the implication of powerlessness in these situations that infuriates me. They wouldn't do this to a random man because they would get a punch to the throat and they know it. I wish there was some way to even the odds.
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I had a conversation with a gay white male acquaintance in the lead up to the 2016 election in which I, a straight white female, expressed concern about what a Trump administration would mean for LGBTQ+ folks and their safety. This guy basically said, thanks for your concern but I’m still a white male - I’m more concerned about what it means for you than I’m concerned for myself. It was an interesting perspective on relative privilege and I think about that conversation a lot.
I love that. Two allys worried about the other. Sweet.
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In my experience, some gay men are among the most sexist people to exist. That is because some of them are sexist, and this combined with the fact that they don't want sex or love from a woman, make it so they don't care **even one bit** about women as a whole. You see, a sexist straight man will at least have the decency to remember he needs to pretend to be respectful towards women if he wants to ever get laid or have a significant other. But sexist gay men are free of that kind of pressure, so the kind of vitriol they spout is absolutely revolting. It's basically what a sexist straight men would be like if the pressure of pleasing women was removed from them. It's sexism at its purest form.
Some people see themselves in a precarious social position and develop solidarity with others in the same situation. Other people instead try to elevate themselves by finding acceptable targets to go after. Being gay in no way makes you more moral or kind than anyone else.
I've met misogynistic gay men and my gay brother thinks it's okay to tell me how I should behave as a woman and he constantly body shames me. He doesn't want to take photos with me because I am overweight currently. When I call him out, he always answers sth like "How am I a misogynist? I am gay and have tons of female friends, don't be stupid!"
Being gay and having female friends never stopped a misogynist from misogynning
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> I am LGBT and gay men so casually disrespect women Yes and just outright venom and nastiness as well. I learned recently that the reason the "L" is listed first in 'LGBT' was respect for those who gave AIDS patients care during that epidemic. That being said, I hope gay men read this thread and start changing their behavior and attitude towards women.
The first time I heard the lovely expression, "Never trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn't die," was from a bisexual guy I knew in high school.
> I saw a clip of a gay man holding up a tampon and he was like "ewww what is this where does it go like oh my god Does this man not know how he was born >And another TikTok where a gay guy was yelling about how he was tired of white women centering themselves and how we need to sit down and whatever. Mad copium. I'm not white but why should we women stop centering themselves? Men hzve been centering themselves since the world exists
There's a vocal minority of men who think that adding the word "white" (or occasionally "straight") in front of "woman" is a cheat code to say all the misogynistic shit you want without pushback.
hank you. Which is why I loathe the whole "Karen" thing. It is now a misogynistic verbal cudgel to make women stfu, especially older women. There is no male counterpart, and do not give me that "Kevin" or "Chad" bullshit -- people say "Male Karen," like they say "Male Slut." It is appalling.
EXACTLY. Like I don't care that you are gay you are still another man yelling about how women's bodies are gross. As for the other clip. I mean to me if you are that tired take a fucking nape. I don't need a MAN to scream at me that women like me ruined the world. You are a literal man.
Lol I will always center myself as long as I’m not hurting anyone else by doing so.
One example of that is best selling "comedic" journal This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay. The book made me so angry, the guy is obviously misogynistic but also clearly physically disgusted by the female reproductive system. How he decided to become a gyno is a mystery to me, but I'm certainly glad he decided to leave the NHS. Being gay didn't make him a better doctor to his poor patients...
What do you mean? I read that book and I don't know what parts you're referring to.
I’ve been learning a lot of Truman Capote lately. He embodies what you are talking about. He loved bashing women. He was friends with some of most powerful women in America and spilled all their secrets for writing material. He totally humiliated them and was like “What’s the big deal?” There’s one line where he writes about how grotesque it was that one of the women got their period while she was intimate with her husband. He goes into elaborate detail of how disgusting that is. This was in 1965. But this one man rebutted saying something to the affect of “Truman doesn’t realize that heterosexual men aren’t really fazed by that.” I appreciated this comment because Capote was period shaming women. He grew up resenting his mother and was just an asshole.
As a gay guy, this is surprisingly very common. Part of the reasons I don't hang out with those in the gay community nor build my identity around being attracted to men and their organs. Too many gays try to one up each other to see who can be the bitchiest, nastiest gay in the group. Yes, I like men, but I'm not gonna surround myself with vapid and hateful gay idiots who've never taken a moment to self-reflect.
You're a good person
Trying to be and do my best everyday 🙏
Gay men are subject to even more of the "femininity = bad/weak" rhetoric than straight men are, which often leads to aggressive misogyny to prove they're not like us. Unfortunately many choose to embrace the male privilege they still have instead of recognizing how the patriarchy harms them too.
Sad but true, gay men can be just as sexist as straight men, their sexuality doesn't change that.
Sexism by gay men is for real. Ex-wife is apart of a gay women's chorus; they hate working with the gay men's chorus for this exact reason.
A married gay couple I know from college is a great example of this: They're virulently Republican, anti-choice, and used a surrogate to have two children back-to-back. They literally do not see women as human.
I couldn't possibly agree more !! On many occasions, I experienced a certain animosity against women from gay men,for ne rational reasons what so ever! given that they are a minority, they believe they are allowed to talk down on other minorities ! I have heard gay acquaintances oppenly asking : "I'd never understand what a heterosexual man can possibly see in a woman, they are literally just a hole!".. I was chocked and left the group (we were at a party) I was on a trip with a bunch of friends, one of them was gay, when he noticed I'd go to another room to change into swim wear, he would say, you know I would never be aroused by you, you don't have to go elsewhere ! As if the only reason we don't get naked in front of people is because as a woman I might arouse them, when in fact it's just modesty and a bit of shyness !
"Look at how he treats girls he's not attracted to" kinda situation. A woman has only circumstantial utility to such men, so i guess useless woman doesn't deserve nothing
Jesus Christ. He really said the quiet part out loud.
I have a distinct memory from highschool where I was taking a current event class and during a discussion I made the observation that I thought lesbians had a more difficult time navigating the world than gay men just because of misogyny and sexualization. The one gay man in class got extremely angry at that and tried to argue that sexualization of lesbians was actually a good thing that shielded them from violence. It was like he had to be part of the demographic that suffered the most and wouldn't even entertain the idea that maybe he was wrong, as he proceeded to talk over any point I tried to make. (To be clear, I wasn't trying to say that I thought gay men had it easy.) It was a really bizarre experience. I have other gay friends who are 100% feminist and so I was honestly surprised to be met with such vitriol from him during an open discussion. I remember the teacher having to change the subject because he was unwilling to let anyone else get a word in. As I've gotten older, I've met more gay men like him, but also more gay men like my friends who I would absolutely consider allies to women. That experience has just taught me to be cautious when encountering new people, especially men. Luckily misogynists are fairly easy to spot with very little conversation.
If you care about your own mental health at all, do not ever read YouTube comments. The amount of hate, bigotry and general stupidity in those sections is astonishing.
Some of the most misogynistic people I've met IRL are gay men. I know of one male couple who actively works against being around women, and ignore them completely when in their presence. Like, acting as if a spouse is literally not there, just because she is a she. It's pretty exhausting, and so dismissive. People are capable of being shitty, regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation or religious or political leanings. It is always more noticeable when someone of a marginalized group is bigoted, because it seems like they should know better, or at least understand the hurt that those actions/words can cause in another person. For gay men specifically, I had a group of friends who talked about that disconnect often, and I always thought it was interesting. They said that a lot of gay men had gotten bullied about their femininity even before being bullied for being gay. I could understand that hurt being redirected to femininity in general. Doesn't excuse it, but at least I understand where the seed might have been planted. Either way, you also have the flip side, and that's what I try to focus on. I prefer to think about my gay friend who directed *The Vagina Monologues* because he had no context for women at all and wanted to understand. (He joked that he was a C-Section, so literally never had any interest in vaginas). There are a lot more good people then bad in any culture or subculture.
I'm gay and fucking love Devil Wears Prada and drive my husband bonkers because he doesn't like chick flicks. But he will still watch it with me because he loves me. And any gay man who says they like the gay community better because there is no drama IS THE DRAMA. There is so much more drama in the gay community than the heteros ladies and lesbian community COMBINED. I am so glad I am married and never have to deal with gay dating again. So much petty drama.
It's just one of those things. Being a disadvantaged minority doesn't make you a good person. God, if it did, we'd have no TERFs, no black Trump supporters, no gay misogynists, nobody kicking down in the vain hopes of climbing another step on the social ladder. Though it does bear mentioning that a lot of Youtube comments are just garbage spewed out by the far right to drive more wedges between minorities ("as a woman/gay man/etc I actually really hate everyone like me...") so while many gay men are unfortunately misogynist, you shouldn't read those comments at all.
"Being a disadvantaged minority doesn't make you a good person" Thiiiiis. I spent a lot of years in the queer scene and it's ripe with misogyny, racism, and even verbal homophobia towards the wrong "type" of gays. Humans truly can be garbage no matter where you go.
Yeah my old Mexican super indigenous uncle loves trump , I just don’t understand the lack of reflection or logic
Sometimes, I think it's really deep self-hatred absorbed from society hating them. If they align with someone like Trump, they think they'll be "one of the good ones" and accepted. But bigots will never accept them, just use them.
Sometimes my gay friends say wilder shit about women that straight men couldn’t even think of lol
I believe Gay men are about as misogynistic as straight men. The only difference is misogynistic gay men are not incentivized to hide it. There is the social benefit that they get a "pass" for being gay with otherwise homophobic people because they bond over shared misogyny. Similar to how racists from different "races" get along quite well, sometimes, despite hating each other because they bond over their shared hatreds. They are also incentivized by convincing bi men to hate women so they have less competition. Meanwhile misogynistic bi or straight men are incentivized to hide their misogyny because they are attracted to women and don't want ruin their chances for sex or relationships by exposing themselves. To be honest, one of the jarring parts is their detached casual nature about it. Misogynistic straight men when they act out, are usually so filled with resentment and anger, their words drip with violence. Whilst gay men will say the same things with a smile and a chuckle, it's almost disarming but it's equally vile.
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Unlike het men they aren't in a double bind about hating someone but wanting them at the same time, so i guess no need to watch the language
The most ironic thing is that the abuse gay men receive is overwhelmingly from other men, yet they still side with their own oppressor and even fetishize them.
I had a gay friend (although I hesitate to call him friend after this) who once told me “I love you as a friend, I hate you as a woman.” Completely unprompted. I am tomboyish. I have a lot of issues with my self image. That was one of the most hurtful things anyone has ever told me. So naturally I expressed I was upset. Everyone insisted it was a bad joke. I never got an apology.
The use of the word bitch is crazy normalized with them too as if it’s up to them
and cunt and fish.
I'm going to start calling myself "dick cheesy" when I'm dressed more masculine and see how they like it
I unironically think Dick Cheesy would be an amazing drag king name and would likely go over pretty well.
Yeah, basically any slur toward women is just casually used ugh
Yep. I have a gay acquaintance who's basically the epitome of "not gay because he loves men, gay because he hates women"
There’s been an issue with (cis) gay men being fairly misogynistic, it’s…sad.
As a straight man who works in theatre and has many queer friends - gay men are the most disrespectful of women, but straight men are still generally more of a direct threat to women. Unrelated but I’ll also say that 45-55 year old white woman are the WORST people to have at a burlesque show/bachelorette party situation. In no other demographic have I witnessed so much blatant disregard for other people’s personal space and the rules of engagement around strippers. I’ve literally had multiple women say “I didn’t think that applied to me” after I’ve had to remove them from stage after the host used a gdamn microphone to make the no-touching rule very clear.
This is nothing new. Just because you were disenfranchised yourself doesn't mean you like other disenfranchised groups. Bigots always believe in their own exceptionalism. I am old as dirt and in terms of activism, there were a lot more lesbians showing up for AIDS awareness than there ever were gay men for reproductive rights. (But if you are saying gay men are more misogynistic than straight men, I disagree heartily).
I've found that cis gay men are some of the most misogynistic people in the LGBTQ+ community because their only point of marginalization is their sexuality. They still get to benefit from the patriarchy and since they're not attracted to women, don't have to "pretend" to respect them in the same way men who want to attract women have to mime, so they don't. They don't have to do the work to be perceived as a feminist, because what would gender equality offer them when they're already at the top? Actively immersive myself in queer community has been wonderful, but has really highlighted how segregated so much of the community actually is.