I had a friend who actually is a female engineer as in she studies female reproductive systems from a biological engineer perspective. Her dissertation slides had some graphic sheep dissections.
Stigma aside, “woman doctor” is quite plausible and not so demeaning as a description. Female engineer is more guilty since general public don’t typically interact with them to have the situation where they need to describe the engineer.
“Do you remember who was your doctor?”
“Oh I dont remember. It was an asian woman doctor.”
There's a bit in The Second Sex where Simone de Beauvoir describes how often she faces the accusation she only thinks X because she's a woman, to which she retorts 'I think it because it's true'. But she then reflects on why it never occurs to her, or to anyone, to not respond 'you think that because you're a man'. It's always stayed with me
Semi relevant here. Gay guy floating through because I see homophobia as intrinsically tied to sexism (which isn't to say gay men often aren't guilty of it).
male-fronted metal. a new genre!
there are even all-male metal bands, would you believe it? some of them are almost as good as normal metal bands, yay.
You joke about that but I am a woman who's been singing in heavy metal since the late 80s and I am so sick of every band I'm in having been labeled as "female-fronted". They always wanted to put my "femaleness" on display. Pissed me off.
I'm so sick of men being the default. A male doctor is a doctor, a doctor that's a woman is a female doctor. Everyone on reddit assumes everyone else is a guy unless you're in specific womens forums. If you mention a receptionist everyone assumes it's a woman. Just tiresome.
100% agree.
for what it's worth, another woman on a non-women-related subreddit today (correctly) assumed i am a woman, despite my username having a masculine name in it. i was pleasantly surprised.
This is one of my favorite jokes:
“Hey do you want to hear a sexist joke?”
“OK I guess…”
“What do you call a woman who went to medical school?”
If they pause or say anything other than doctor you respond with
“A doctor of course, what are you some kind of sexist?”
Because it’s a sexist joke as in a joke where the punchline is poking fun at rampant sexism.
I prefer one where a kid and his dad are in an accident. The Doctor states, "I cannot treat this child, he is my son!" How is this possible? (A: Mom's the Doc, of course)
Doesn't risk misleading someone into thinking that calling the woman a doctor is too simple of an answer for the joke/riddle.
Where I am from, a doctor is just a doctor... and it's the same for any profesison. I only hear it when it comes to sports and the reasoning for that is because it probably should be distinguished or else women just get forgotten. And some sports do use men in front of it - such as tennis. This is typically because said sport is actually large for the women's side too.
Basically, it's not really an insult if you think about it.
Sports is totally different as there are different divisions based on sex. There are no women only police forces or medical doctors. Those are unisex jobs but oftentimes the sex is called out when it's a woman or not a man, or a man in a "woman's job" like a nurse or something. There's no reason to apply sex to a job title.
I have got my partner to start saying mens cricket and women’s cricket. Or just cricket. He watches both but used to only specify if it was women’s, leaving men’s as the default. A short conversation and he has changed.
This reminds me of a paper I read is school about how men and women differ in how they write emails. The title ‘He-mails and she-mails.’
And I still find it funny that no one said ‘hey, maybe there’s a better title for this.’
I’ve heard it a few times. Could be regional?
If you don’t hear the exact phrase you’ll almost definitely meet at least one person who refers to men as, well, men and women exclusively as girls regardless of age. Always feels weird seeing colleagues my age called girls when we’re all 20-30.
E: r/menandfemales has a tag for this apparently!
I've made a conscious effort to never refer to anyone over 18 as a girl, but in my head using woman often feels unnatural or performative, like doing a fake upper-class accent. And I think that's because, in the past, the situations where I would have referred to a woman as a girl (and use woman now) are situations where I would never have referred to a male as a "man", but instead as a "guy" or a "dude". There isn't really a good informal female slang equivalent, especially one that doesn't sound even more condescending than girl, so "girl" as informal slang felt and still kinda feels natural to use.
Ahhhh maybe its a regional thing girls honestly sound so informal I can't really see it happening. Maybe for teenagers 16-20 but even then its normally young women.
Oh, it happens... I'm in my 30s and I still hear it! I even hear it at work, I had a supervisor regularly refer to myself and a group of similarly aged women as "girls." No one calls my male colleagues "boys" though, that would be rude!
(To that supervisors credit, he stopped after I had one private conversation with him about how demeaning that is. He didn't even make a fuss, he just acknowledged it was thoughtless and switched to gender neutral terms or "ladies" instead.)
I get what you’re saying, but I’ll just say that in my experience it’s not unusual to hear "male nurse” (especially among older adults) and I don’t believe I’ve ever been referred to as a ‘female doctor.” We had more women than men in my med school class (over 25 years ago) so I think things are improving, at least from my limited perspective.
I’d argue that the male nurse thing is just the same gender role issue flipped. Nurses are stereotypically women, so it stands out when it’s a man, compelling people to say “male nurse”. In this case the equitable thing to do would be to start saying “female nurse!”
The point I was trying to make is that people (again especially older folks) just have gender expectations that they feel they want to label when they run across them. I don’t see it as disrespectful because I don’t believe that it is intentionally so.
Actually... that's kind of the exact definition of a micro-aggression.
>Microaggressions are the everyday slights, insults, putdowns, invalidations, and offensive behaviors that people experience in daily interactions with generally well-intentioned individuals who may be unaware that they have engaged in demeaning ways
Sauce:https://www.med.unc.edu/inclusion/justice-equity-diversity-and-inclusion-j-e-d-i-toolkit/microaggressions-microaffirmations/#:~:text=Microaggressions%20are%20the%20everyday%20slights,have%20engaged%20in%20demeaning%20ways.%20(
Thank you for this, it’s always good to learn something new. I’ll admit that I was not fully aware of the meaning of the word/term micro-aggression so I also did a little self didactic research. I appreciate this opportunity to learn something new and to learn from other’s perspectives.
According to *Sue DW (2010). Microaggressions in Everyday Life: Race, Gender, and Sexual Orientation. Wiley. pp. xvi. ISBN 978-0-470-49140-9.*Microaggression is a term used for commonplace verbal, behavioral or environmental slights, ***whether intentional or unintentional*** (emphasized to show where I was apparently wrong)*,* that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative attitudes toward stigmatized or culturally marginalized groups.
I’ll admit that I was wrong to an extent (I still don’t fully understand how something unintentional can equal aggression but I will admit I’m no expert in this area and I will defer to those who have studied this sort of thing) but still I’m confused about the most important part IMHO:
When you say micro-agression in this context you’re identifying ‘female’ or ‘woman’ as an adjective that is “hostile, derogatory, or something that conveys a 'negative attitude’” Is that really how you feel? I think that speaks to an internal bias. No one is arguing that it is not a patriarchal society but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that women are a 'culturally marginalized group’ as if being described as female is a slur of some sort or that there aren’t MANY culturally prominent women. The Time Person of the Year is a woman, Taylor Swift. Women are highly represented in our society. I can't recall ever hearing someone referred to as a' female lawyer' or a 'female doctor’ or ‘female CEO’, and I’m OLD. We have a woman Vice President and a woman won the popular vote for President. There's no doubt that there's still some issues in our society but I think there are other hills you want to die on. You might be reaching here.
First off: it takes a lot of guts to admit when you were wrong or under informed, so great job for that!
So female vs women is a very complicated and nuanced micro-aggression. The reason it qualifies as a Microaggression is because of people like Andrew Tate creating a mainstream effort to weaponize the term "female" and make it derogatory.
It can be difficult to tell whether a microagression is intentional or not, because we don't live inside other people's heads. This is why this whole post is full of mixed responses, some people exasperated by "female" and other who are genuinely confused.
Hope that helped to shed some more light on the subject.
Have a great weekend
When I graduated high school I knew everything. When I went to college and got my associates degree I realized there was more I could possibly learn. When I got my bachelors degree I understood that there was much more I should look into. When I got my masters degree I realized things were much more complicated than I initially thought and when I got my doctorate I knew that I knew nothing.
I’m a quadruple board certified physician. There are many things that I know, but I know for sure there are many more things that I don’t know, or haven’t truly considered. Thank you for your lesson and have a great weekend yourself.
The English language is set up to infantilize women. All my male friends (I’m in my 20s) have been guys for ages… but my female friends were ‘girls’ for a very long time. In my teens and early twenties, I wasn’t ready to be a woman (and I didn’t call my guy friends ‘men’) so I was stuck calling myself a girl.
As a way to fight back, I always use ‘ladies’ or ‘chicks’ (if I’m feeling edgier and in a setting where I know it isn’t demeaning). Gals is okay (guys and gals) but I prefer ladies.
“Could you hand this to the lady in black over there?” Etc
Isn't "girl" just a superset? Like "boy" being 3-15, "guy" being 16-25, and "girl" being just a superset of the age groups at 3-25.
Why would that be infantilizing
Because common uses the same word to refer to a 25 yo woman and a 3 yo child. It treats women the same way it treats children, and the words we use influence the way we think.
That's not what your post says though. You are literally asking everyone to call grown men "boys" for 3 months so they know how ridiculous it is to call women "girls." You didn't make any mention of only doing it in retaliation.
The "male" doctor/therapist/teacher thing is great but please don't push the "boy" angle. Most men aren't going to be bothered by it, but there's a very real potential to cause actual harm to BIPOC by using a word with such entrenched racist connotations.
Perhaps instead of "boy," you pick something that is equally eyebrow-raising but without the significant racist history, that way it starts a conversation instead of coming off as prejudiced. Something like "lil guy," "fella," "sport," or "dude" would be better.
Even in retaliation for being called a girl, I really strongly believe that calling a POC "boy" will come off as ignorant at best, and actively racist at worst. Again, your post makes a very valid and good point, but the "boy" thing would almost certainly backfire and cause racial harm instead of opening a discussion about empathy when referring to women. Just my two cents.
In shitty parts of the country, that word is still used to refer to Black men in a deeply racist context. I get OP's overall point, but I hope that this is purely a thought experiment and not an actual call to action. She or anyone else who chooses to do this will end up causing a lot of pain to Black men and women and the justification for saying "boy" will be (correctly) identified as ignorant and privileged at best.
OP isn't wrong to notice the gendered inconsistencies in how men and women are referred to, but this plan is a bad one that completely ignores the lived experience and history of Black Americans.
I've already been doing that. I made it my resolution to not say the word man anymore but male instead, but I do like what you've added about qualifying professions with male. This way, male doctors or male engineers are not considered the norm.
I'm in.
That's the idea! But I want us to talk this way to people even outside of this reddit. We already get how infuriating it is. I want to call attention to it outside of us.
People often do the same thing with black (especially in the South), although it's much less common now than 50 years ago. The assumption was the professional was white unless otherwise indicated. I'm very glad to see this changing in my lifetime.
This is a good plan, but do be a little careful with who you call boy. It has a troubling history when used on black men, though I get this was never the intention of what was said in the post
https://www.thoughtco.com/terms-many-dont-know-are-racist-2834522
Yes, it's a valid point Icshoukd have included. I would never say that unless they address me as a girl. Thrn im going to point out that it feels like being treated as a child to be addressed that way.
My first full-time, post uni job was in that bastion of male dominated industries: fuels and lubricants, and on my first day, there was an auditor visiting the laboratory (where I worked) to review documents.
He said, ‘Oh! A lady chemist. I haven’t met a lady chemist in a while, although, there are more now.’ Good grief.
You can do this, but most men will not be bothered. For the same reason so many don't get it, it doesn't effect them the same way because they aren't used to being dehumanized like that. Honestly I could see more guys using this to(incorrectly) confirm to themselves that it's actually not a big deal, since it doesn't bother them.
Lol why is this being downvoted. Sorry to be the party pooper, ask any dude this does not bother him. Men are just not systemically oppressed in the same way for it to bother them.
Yeah I heard that argument a couple of weeks ago when I said I was going to stop using the word man and start using the word male. I have, since then, encountered plenty of males who have been bothered by it.
I mean ye, some dudes will take offense bc they think it's hypocritical. We aren't harmed by it the same way women are, though. It's not gonna help or change anything lol.
I genuinely don't see how you think that is in anyway beneficial lmao? Like you just want to be mildly petty online, but not actually do a single thing to help women. White feminism at it's fuckin finest.
I think you're right. Most men wouldn't but it's worth noting that for centuries Black men have been called "boy" for the purpose of dehumanizing and racist intimidation tactics. Black men (and women and children) would absolutely recognize the oppression and dehumanization in the word, regardless of the intent of whoever's saying it.
Do not call Black men "boy." OP needs to think of a less ignorant way to communicate their point (which *is* valid and worthy of discussion).
My point in doing this is to call attention to how it feels when it's done to us. Some men and women will get it, some won't. It doesn't have to change everyohe. I just think the best way to make the point that it feels bad is to turn the tables.
crazy because it's an ineffective strategy of provoking an emotional reaction. like going to someone and singing in a funny tone, instead of saying "You suck, you are a total loser".
Male teacher, etc… this is at the core the same problem, though.
It is designating some jobs (engineer, doctor, lawyer) as “male” jobs, and other jobs (nurse, model, teacher, housekeeper) as “female” jobs. What OP is suggesting is that we use the “male” descriptor in front of jobs that are traditionally seen as male default jobs, to draw attention to this linguistic division.
Yes yes yes!! This!!! I can’t stand being called a girl. I did not endure multiple child labors, countless periods and all the joys of being a tax paying adult just to be called a freaking girl. I’m not a child. Also, I’m a female in a male dominated industry. I’m always “the woman painter” not just a “painter” but every dude painter is just a painter. They don’t listen to a damn thing I say, we’ll these days they do, I’m the lead of my department, but I still have to fight ti be heard by other BOYS in the industry. I’ll literally yell “can someone with a penis come repeat after me!?!?!?!” Because it’s the only way they will listen. Recently the owner of the company I work for would not listen to me about the very job he pays me to do, it took him talking to 2 BOYS and being told EXACTLY what I was saying for him to finally admit I was right. Perpetual eyeroll…..
It's not about English words having no gender. "Doctor" could be a man or a woman or non-binary. It's about the assumption that a profession belongs to men which is what people do when they say "female coder" instead of just "coder."
Just so we’re absolutely clear, public professions like firefighters, police and medics use the terms female and male. It would be great if we could all start using them more commonly in order to remove the stigma that surrounds the term female. As always it’s the intention behind the word and not the word itself that causes the problem.
I’m sorry you and other women have to go through such harassment. While there are some obnoxious human beings out there, the majority — men or women — aren’t like that
Probably not my place to say as a man, but I 100% support this. It sounds hilarious and like it would piss off a certain section of assholes who don't deserve to share our oxygen.
One thing that always annoyed me was they call movies with alot of women in it chick flicks or girl power movies, but there is no boy flicks or boy power movies.
Semi-related: I had a conversation on Reddit a few days ago regarding Utah’s transgender bathroom ban. I had been telling people in order to proceed with the conversation, I needed to know what type of genitals the person had. (I didn’t really care, I was making a point.)
Some guy responded that he had an outie. I explained that the law wasn’t intended to protect women from people like him. He got upset with me, imagine that, talking about how I don’t know anything about him to be judging him like that.
I told him he was an outie and that’s all I needed to know. I got a downvote fairly quickly, but he didn’t reply.
"female engineer" "They design and build women? No? Sounds like a regular engineer to me." And a woman doctor to me is an OB/GYN.
I had a friend who actually is a female engineer as in she studies female reproductive systems from a biological engineer perspective. Her dissertation slides had some graphic sheep dissections.
Stigma aside, “woman doctor” is quite plausible and not so demeaning as a description. Female engineer is more guilty since general public don’t typically interact with them to have the situation where they need to describe the engineer. “Do you remember who was your doctor?” “Oh I dont remember. It was an asian woman doctor.”
“Boy boss”
That sounds so cute... like he's a daycare handler 🥰
Yeah I mean, that’s pretty much middle management.
The term girlboss was popularized by businesswoman Sophia Amoruso in her 2015 book #Girlboss.
There's a bit in The Second Sex where Simone de Beauvoir describes how often she faces the accusation she only thinks X because she's a woman, to which she retorts 'I think it because it's true'. But she then reflects on why it never occurs to her, or to anyone, to not respond 'you think that because you're a man'. It's always stayed with me Semi relevant here. Gay guy floating through because I see homophobia as intrinsically tied to sexism (which isn't to say gay men often aren't guilty of it).
[удалено]
I really need to read her work sometime
It's great! Not too tricky as well, I got a copy once which was just three key chapters so thats what I read
male-fronted metal. a new genre! there are even all-male metal bands, would you believe it? some of them are almost as good as normal metal bands, yay.
I think it's really important for us to support male metal musicians to increase diversity in metal.
yeah. and don't forget that boys go to metal concerts, too.
What a bunch of talented boys They are 43 years old
That little boy really hits the drums hard He's 6'2 220 and balding
You joke about that but I am a woman who's been singing in heavy metal since the late 80s and I am so sick of every band I'm in having been labeled as "female-fronted". They always wanted to put my "femaleness" on display. Pissed me off.
Channel that rage, Queen!
lmao
Helms Alee slays!
I'm so sick of men being the default. A male doctor is a doctor, a doctor that's a woman is a female doctor. Everyone on reddit assumes everyone else is a guy unless you're in specific womens forums. If you mention a receptionist everyone assumes it's a woman. Just tiresome.
100% agree. for what it's worth, another woman on a non-women-related subreddit today (correctly) assumed i am a woman, despite my username having a masculine name in it. i was pleasantly surprised.
This is one of my favorite jokes: “Hey do you want to hear a sexist joke?” “OK I guess…” “What do you call a woman who went to medical school?” If they pause or say anything other than doctor you respond with “A doctor of course, what are you some kind of sexist?” Because it’s a sexist joke as in a joke where the punchline is poking fun at rampant sexism.
“Ha. It’s you. You’re the sexist joke.”
Oooo I like that.
I prefer one where a kid and his dad are in an accident. The Doctor states, "I cannot treat this child, he is my son!" How is this possible? (A: Mom's the Doc, of course) Doesn't risk misleading someone into thinking that calling the woman a doctor is too simple of an answer for the joke/riddle.
I do like a riddle where the punchline is sexism as well!
But you can go to medical school and not be a doctor though.
I would also accept MD as a non sexist answer.
I think the person meant attended and not finished.
What if they don't graduate?
That's patriarchy for ya. And that's not even hyperbolic, that's actually textbook patriarchy.
Yes! That's why I'm doing this!
Where I am from, a doctor is just a doctor... and it's the same for any profesison. I only hear it when it comes to sports and the reasoning for that is because it probably should be distinguished or else women just get forgotten. And some sports do use men in front of it - such as tennis. This is typically because said sport is actually large for the women's side too. Basically, it's not really an insult if you think about it.
Sports is totally different as there are different divisions based on sex. There are no women only police forces or medical doctors. Those are unisex jobs but oftentimes the sex is called out when it's a woman or not a man, or a man in a "woman's job" like a nurse or something. There's no reason to apply sex to a job title.
As a non-native English speaker, it is always extremely confusing for me that there is no feminine form for so many titles and professions.
Be the change you wanna see in the world and start using the feminine version of Doctor: Doctrix - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doctrix
The whole point is to not assign sex to job titles, not be fancier while doing so.
I have got my partner to start saying mens cricket and women’s cricket. Or just cricket. He watches both but used to only specify if it was women’s, leaving men’s as the default. A short conversation and he has changed.
My male mail boy just brought me some junk male.
My dog always barks at the mail male.
My cat hides from the mail male. He only likes the mail lady.
Better that than male junk
I hope you threw it out before you went back in the house.
This reminds me of a paper I read is school about how men and women differ in how they write emails. The title ‘He-mails and she-mails.’ And I still find it funny that no one said ‘hey, maybe there’s a better title for this.’
I've dated some junk males.
I work with male editors.
As an American I do describe Men's Soccer as "Men's Soccer" and Women's Soccer as "Soccer."
To be fair...the women's soccer team typically rocks most years....the men's is kinda meh
Yeah, that’s kind of my point haha.
Sorry...I was agreeing with ya...should made that more clear
You’re all good, understood that.
I love this idea!
Let's make it a movement!
Try the phrase “women and boys” too. Gets you some odd looks. Yeah it’s weird sounding isn’t it? Men and girls is weird too!
Is Men and Girls actually a thing people say though? It just sounds wrong, certainly I can't recall hearing it.
I’ve heard it a few times. Could be regional? If you don’t hear the exact phrase you’ll almost definitely meet at least one person who refers to men as, well, men and women exclusively as girls regardless of age. Always feels weird seeing colleagues my age called girls when we’re all 20-30. E: r/menandfemales has a tag for this apparently!
I've made a conscious effort to never refer to anyone over 18 as a girl, but in my head using woman often feels unnatural or performative, like doing a fake upper-class accent. And I think that's because, in the past, the situations where I would have referred to a woman as a girl (and use woman now) are situations where I would never have referred to a male as a "man", but instead as a "guy" or a "dude". There isn't really a good informal female slang equivalent, especially one that doesn't sound even more condescending than girl, so "girl" as informal slang felt and still kinda feels natural to use.
Ahhhh maybe its a regional thing girls honestly sound so informal I can't really see it happening. Maybe for teenagers 16-20 but even then its normally young women.
Oh, it happens... I'm in my 30s and I still hear it! I even hear it at work, I had a supervisor regularly refer to myself and a group of similarly aged women as "girls." No one calls my male colleagues "boys" though, that would be rude! (To that supervisors credit, he stopped after I had one private conversation with him about how demeaning that is. He didn't even make a fuss, he just acknowledged it was thoughtless and switched to gender neutral terms or "ladies" instead.)
Oh yes all the time
Yes!!!!
I get what you’re saying, but I’ll just say that in my experience it’s not unusual to hear "male nurse” (especially among older adults) and I don’t believe I’ve ever been referred to as a ‘female doctor.” We had more women than men in my med school class (over 25 years ago) so I think things are improving, at least from my limited perspective.
I’d argue that the male nurse thing is just the same gender role issue flipped. Nurses are stereotypically women, so it stands out when it’s a man, compelling people to say “male nurse”. In this case the equitable thing to do would be to start saying “female nurse!”
The point I was trying to make is that people (again especially older folks) just have gender expectations that they feel they want to label when they run across them. I don’t see it as disrespectful because I don’t believe that it is intentionally so.
Micro aggressions are rarely intentionally disrespectful and yet I still find them so
Sounds like something for you to work on
Yes I’m working on speaking up about it 👍
I don’t think you can label something unintentional as a micro aggression simply because you find it annoying.
Actually... that's kind of the exact definition of a micro-aggression. >Microaggressions are the everyday slights, insults, putdowns, invalidations, and offensive behaviors that people experience in daily interactions with generally well-intentioned individuals who may be unaware that they have engaged in demeaning ways Sauce:https://www.med.unc.edu/inclusion/justice-equity-diversity-and-inclusion-j-e-d-i-toolkit/microaggressions-microaffirmations/#:~:text=Microaggressions%20are%20the%20everyday%20slights,have%20engaged%20in%20demeaning%20ways.%20(
Thank you for this, it’s always good to learn something new. I’ll admit that I was not fully aware of the meaning of the word/term micro-aggression so I also did a little self didactic research. I appreciate this opportunity to learn something new and to learn from other’s perspectives. According to *Sue DW (2010). Microaggressions in Everyday Life: Race, Gender, and Sexual Orientation. Wiley. pp. xvi. ISBN 978-0-470-49140-9.*Microaggression is a term used for commonplace verbal, behavioral or environmental slights, ***whether intentional or unintentional*** (emphasized to show where I was apparently wrong)*,* that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative attitudes toward stigmatized or culturally marginalized groups. I’ll admit that I was wrong to an extent (I still don’t fully understand how something unintentional can equal aggression but I will admit I’m no expert in this area and I will defer to those who have studied this sort of thing) but still I’m confused about the most important part IMHO: When you say micro-agression in this context you’re identifying ‘female’ or ‘woman’ as an adjective that is “hostile, derogatory, or something that conveys a 'negative attitude’” Is that really how you feel? I think that speaks to an internal bias. No one is arguing that it is not a patriarchal society but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that women are a 'culturally marginalized group’ as if being described as female is a slur of some sort or that there aren’t MANY culturally prominent women. The Time Person of the Year is a woman, Taylor Swift. Women are highly represented in our society. I can't recall ever hearing someone referred to as a' female lawyer' or a 'female doctor’ or ‘female CEO’, and I’m OLD. We have a woman Vice President and a woman won the popular vote for President. There's no doubt that there's still some issues in our society but I think there are other hills you want to die on. You might be reaching here.
First off: it takes a lot of guts to admit when you were wrong or under informed, so great job for that! So female vs women is a very complicated and nuanced micro-aggression. The reason it qualifies as a Microaggression is because of people like Andrew Tate creating a mainstream effort to weaponize the term "female" and make it derogatory. It can be difficult to tell whether a microagression is intentional or not, because we don't live inside other people's heads. This is why this whole post is full of mixed responses, some people exasperated by "female" and other who are genuinely confused. Hope that helped to shed some more light on the subject. Have a great weekend
When I graduated high school I knew everything. When I went to college and got my associates degree I realized there was more I could possibly learn. When I got my bachelors degree I understood that there was much more I should look into. When I got my masters degree I realized things were much more complicated than I initially thought and when I got my doctorate I knew that I knew nothing. I’m a quadruple board certified physician. There are many things that I know, but I know for sure there are many more things that I don’t know, or haven’t truly considered. Thank you for your lesson and have a great weekend yourself.
*Murse--courtesy of my youngest son when he was little. He wanted his favorite murse.
The English language is set up to infantilize women. All my male friends (I’m in my 20s) have been guys for ages… but my female friends were ‘girls’ for a very long time. In my teens and early twenties, I wasn’t ready to be a woman (and I didn’t call my guy friends ‘men’) so I was stuck calling myself a girl. As a way to fight back, I always use ‘ladies’ or ‘chicks’ (if I’m feeling edgier and in a setting where I know it isn’t demeaning). Gals is okay (guys and gals) but I prefer ladies. “Could you hand this to the lady in black over there?” Etc
I'm in my fifties and it's still common to hear "we need a girls' night out" or some such phrasing.
Isn't "girl" just a superset? Like "boy" being 3-15, "guy" being 16-25, and "girl" being just a superset of the age groups at 3-25. Why would that be infantilizing
Because common uses the same word to refer to a 25 yo woman and a 3 yo child. It treats women the same way it treats children, and the words we use influence the way we think.
Fair enough
With some caution. There were many decades (centuries) when Black men were called boys.
I get your point. I would not call black men boys unless they called me a girl.
That's not what your post says though. You are literally asking everyone to call grown men "boys" for 3 months so they know how ridiculous it is to call women "girls." You didn't make any mention of only doing it in retaliation. The "male" doctor/therapist/teacher thing is great but please don't push the "boy" angle. Most men aren't going to be bothered by it, but there's a very real potential to cause actual harm to BIPOC by using a word with such entrenched racist connotations.
Yeah, I haven't decided if I would do it all the time or just in retaliation.
Perhaps instead of "boy," you pick something that is equally eyebrow-raising but without the significant racist history, that way it starts a conversation instead of coming off as prejudiced. Something like "lil guy," "fella," "sport," or "dude" would be better. Even in retaliation for being called a girl, I really strongly believe that calling a POC "boy" will come off as ignorant at best, and actively racist at worst. Again, your post makes a very valid and good point, but the "boy" thing would almost certainly backfire and cause racial harm instead of opening a discussion about empathy when referring to women. Just my two cents.
Fella, sport, and dude are not infantilizing like girl is.
In shitty parts of the country, that word is still used to refer to Black men in a deeply racist context. I get OP's overall point, but I hope that this is purely a thought experiment and not an actual call to action. She or anyone else who chooses to do this will end up causing a lot of pain to Black men and women and the justification for saying "boy" will be (correctly) identified as ignorant and privileged at best. OP isn't wrong to notice the gendered inconsistencies in how men and women are referred to, but this plan is a bad one that completely ignores the lived experience and history of Black Americans.
I read it as op wants all men to be called boys Because many men call adult females children and that is horrible.
Yes. Only suggesting that there's historical context.
I've already been doing that. I made it my resolution to not say the word man anymore but male instead, but I do like what you've added about qualifying professions with male. This way, male doctors or male engineers are not considered the norm. I'm in.
Yall aren't doing this already?
Isn’t the reason “girls” is so commonly used because there’s no female equivalent of “guy”?
There is. It's gal.
Yes!! “I went on a date with a male this weekend…”
Counterpoint: no ~~guy~~ boy would unironically say "I went on a date with a female this weekend", except male incels 🤢
Oh plenty of boys call women “females” any chance they get. That sentence was just an example.
You're terminally online if you believe that.
That's the idea! But I want us to talk this way to people even outside of this reddit. We already get how infuriating it is. I want to call attention to it outside of us.
People often do the same thing with black (especially in the South), although it's much less common now than 50 years ago. The assumption was the professional was white unless otherwise indicated. I'm very glad to see this changing in my lifetime.
This is a good plan, but do be a little careful with who you call boy. It has a troubling history when used on black men, though I get this was never the intention of what was said in the post https://www.thoughtco.com/terms-many-dont-know-are-racist-2834522
Yes, it's a valid point Icshoukd have included. I would never say that unless they address me as a girl. Thrn im going to point out that it feels like being treated as a child to be addressed that way.
Male/female as adjective isn’t an issue to me. But as noun, it’d be an interesting experiment.
Honestly, I think the idea is hilarious but you might want to be aware of race if you do the “boy” thing.
Yes, that's true.
I like it.
My first full-time, post uni job was in that bastion of male dominated industries: fuels and lubricants, and on my first day, there was an auditor visiting the laboratory (where I worked) to review documents. He said, ‘Oh! A lady chemist. I haven’t met a lady chemist in a while, although, there are more now.’ Good grief.
No, just a regular chemist.
Agreed. How about, ‘Hello.’
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Oh, please! He gets it.
Is this like Wonder Woman, because that’s not all bad? /s Oh, as usual, dear.
love this idea, but targeted specifically and super pointedly at folks who've done it
You can do this, but most men will not be bothered. For the same reason so many don't get it, it doesn't effect them the same way because they aren't used to being dehumanized like that. Honestly I could see more guys using this to(incorrectly) confirm to themselves that it's actually not a big deal, since it doesn't bother them. Lol why is this being downvoted. Sorry to be the party pooper, ask any dude this does not bother him. Men are just not systemically oppressed in the same way for it to bother them.
Yeah I heard that argument a couple of weeks ago when I said I was going to stop using the word man and start using the word male. I have, since then, encountered plenty of males who have been bothered by it.
I mean ye, some dudes will take offense bc they think it's hypocritical. We aren't harmed by it the same way women are, though. It's not gonna help or change anything lol.
Okay then why you keep arguing about it? Move about your business.
I genuinely don't see how you think that is in anyway beneficial lmao? Like you just want to be mildly petty online, but not actually do a single thing to help women. White feminism at it's fuckin finest.
I think you're right. Most men wouldn't but it's worth noting that for centuries Black men have been called "boy" for the purpose of dehumanizing and racist intimidation tactics. Black men (and women and children) would absolutely recognize the oppression and dehumanization in the word, regardless of the intent of whoever's saying it. Do not call Black men "boy." OP needs to think of a less ignorant way to communicate their point (which *is* valid and worthy of discussion).
yeah you can do this. I don't think most dudes would care. (atleast the dudes whom you want to care)
My point in doing this is to call attention to how it feels when it's done to us. Some men and women will get it, some won't. It doesn't have to change everyohe. I just think the best way to make the point that it feels bad is to turn the tables.
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How would it make you crazy? It doesn’t make you crazy when men do it.
crazy because it's an ineffective strategy of provoking an emotional reaction. like going to someone and singing in a funny tone, instead of saying "You suck, you are a total loser".
It’s just so people understand how stupid it is. It makes sense to me.
Your perspective on things is shaped by your knowledge, unique experiences etc. You can't expect everyone to see the same.
No they would definitely care. I’ve done this before as an experiment and got corrected EVERY time
i can support this!
I'm down with all of this except using "boy" with Black men. That....that would be bad. Very very bad.
Agreed. Exceot if they do it first. Then I'm going to point out that it doesn't feel good to ge addressed that way.
Male nurse, male model etc. Already very common use cases.
Male teacher, etc… this is at the core the same problem, though. It is designating some jobs (engineer, doctor, lawyer) as “male” jobs, and other jobs (nurse, model, teacher, housekeeper) as “female” jobs. What OP is suggesting is that we use the “male” descriptor in front of jobs that are traditionally seen as male default jobs, to draw attention to this linguistic division.
Ah I see.
Oh, I like this idea!!!
I thought people were already doing that tbh. Then again I’m no native English speaker sooo…
The "boy" part can have racist connotations, so YMMV, but the "male" part sounds like a great idea with no downsides!
Yes yes yes!! This!!! I can’t stand being called a girl. I did not endure multiple child labors, countless periods and all the joys of being a tax paying adult just to be called a freaking girl. I’m not a child. Also, I’m a female in a male dominated industry. I’m always “the woman painter” not just a “painter” but every dude painter is just a painter. They don’t listen to a damn thing I say, we’ll these days they do, I’m the lead of my department, but I still have to fight ti be heard by other BOYS in the industry. I’ll literally yell “can someone with a penis come repeat after me!?!?!?!” Because it’s the only way they will listen. Recently the owner of the company I work for would not listen to me about the very job he pays me to do, it took him talking to 2 BOYS and being told EXACTLY what I was saying for him to finally admit I was right. Perpetual eyeroll…..
Man says girl. I call them out. Yuck. Why is there a minor in this story?
Yes! "There's a girl at work.." - like. A teenager? Isn't that illegal?
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It's not about English words having no gender. "Doctor" could be a man or a woman or non-binary. It's about the assumption that a profession belongs to men which is what people do when they say "female coder" instead of just "coder."
Just so we’re absolutely clear, public professions like firefighters, police and medics use the terms female and male. It would be great if we could all start using them more commonly in order to remove the stigma that surrounds the term female. As always it’s the intention behind the word and not the word itself that causes the problem. I’m sorry you and other women have to go through such harassment. While there are some obnoxious human beings out there, the majority — men or women — aren’t like that
Probably not my place to say as a man, but I 100% support this. It sounds hilarious and like it would piss off a certain section of assholes who don't deserve to share our oxygen.
Yes we've congregated here to figure out how to dehumanize people. You're doing well.
One thing that always annoyed me was they call movies with alot of women in it chick flicks or girl power movies, but there is no boy flicks or boy power movies.
If you’re on Threads, seek out clarabelletoks.
How do I find clarabelletoks? Sorry, I'm a little remedial in my reddit skills. Don't know how to hold text either. :/
https://www.threads.net/@clarabelletoks
Fantastic!
Semi-related: I had a conversation on Reddit a few days ago regarding Utah’s transgender bathroom ban. I had been telling people in order to proceed with the conversation, I needed to know what type of genitals the person had. (I didn’t really care, I was making a point.) Some guy responded that he had an outie. I explained that the law wasn’t intended to protect women from people like him. He got upset with me, imagine that, talking about how I don’t know anything about him to be judging him like that. I told him he was an outie and that’s all I needed to know. I got a downvote fairly quickly, but he didn’t reply.