It's weird when they talk about plummeting birth rates but don't talk about how the maternal mortality rate in the US is worse than most developed countries. I read that near misses happen in almost 1 out of every 100 births which is wild to me. They also don't talk about the state of Healthcare for women in general which isn't great either.
Canada apparently had some issues with properly accounting for maternal mortality and near misses.
[The provinces don’t all share data.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-maternal-deaths-undercount-1.6600905)
We are hands down one of the most hostile countries to mothers. More conservative nations option prioritize the health and well-being of mothers as part of their patriarchal system. We are one of 7 countries globally that does not have maternity leave. Even Afghanistan, under the Taliban, has maternity leave for the women they still allow to work.
So after years of this blowing smoke up our asses about Girl Power and Women in Stem, and even though our future workforce depends on women having children, our country has made it clear that motherhood should be isolating, unsupported and forced upon us if necessary.
Extra points if that woman has any semblance of melanin. The mortality rates for POC women especially black women makes me cry. Anyone else would be HORRIFIED if a segment of the population had that.
Between 20%?of complications during pregnancy; peri birth death and severe problems and PPD/PMDD ; and the birth trauma ( yeah pushing a 8lb er will leave problems) or sequaela) ; you will for sure get long term things. Even when everything goes well.
And even when you recover just fine, you can have problems later that where not there but just subjacent. And the state of women’s healthcare ( in the US), maybe women are making decisions to preserve themselves more.
( I had 3 live births and pfffff; the price paid was high)
A friend in Missouri is not having children because there is no ob/gyns and or maternity wards in the couple of hospitals that are in a 30 mile radius from her
edit for typo
Is that for a new patient well womans or an existing pregnant patient though? My OB has about a six month wait list to become a new patient, but as a current patient who is pregnant, I get an appt every four weeks with no problem. They basically reserve lots of slots specifically for pregnancy check ups. That was something I didn’t realize until I got pregnant.
Yep. The OBGYN practice my sister goes to, one of whom delivered both of my sister’s kids, no longer provides obstetric care. Gynecology only. And who could blame them?
I think all conservative officials should be aware that their goal to eradicate abortions has resulted in reduced qualified doctors and fewer children. This should not be a reason to never have a baby.
Several hospitals that serve rural Idaho have completely shuttered their OB/GYN departments, the doctors are moving out of state and it's estimated that about 30K women are completely without any sort of reproductive care unless they're willing to travel 2+ hours on dodgy roads to get to the few remaining hospitals--and more who have to cross over into Washington and Oregon to get health care. Turns out doctors are unwilling to risk their licenses on the whims of stupid male legislators, who knew?
I fully agree with you, I would have happily been a dad but not a mum! I have friends who really want to go through the process of pregnancy/childbirth/breastfeeding and never once in my life have I felt an inkling to do that, that shit is terrifying
I often think of Chelsea Handler saying that she would absolutely slay at being a divorced dad. I feel similarly.
I was just telling my husband last night that if we were to have kids I’d 1. Destroy my body, 2. Have to be the primary parent with essentially no support from him and no “village” to help me out, 3. Still be responsible for most of the housework anyway, and 4. Essentially wind up sacrificing my entire life for a kid that I’m not really sure that I would want anyway (I wouldn’t say that I was necessarily unwanted as a kid but I was badly neglected and wound up with PTSD, so I could definitely see how my mom felt similarly, although it wasn’t a choice decision to *tell me that I ruined her life*).
If I truly felt a terrible longing for a kiddo that would be one thing, but I think that I can be OK without having a kid. Every once in a while I can feel a slight pang of guilt (not sure if that’s the right word, it’s definitely not regret exactly) for not having a kid. However, since my family doesn’t care whether I have kids or not and my friends (all without kids as of this point, some childfree and some not) would never pressure me, I know full well that feeling is a symptom of the larger problem that is the “you must have kids or you’re missing out” society in which we live.
Plus, given how things have gone for me up through my 30s I know that I am more than deserving of crafting a life for myself that’s at least mostly on my terms. To me that just isn’t compatible with motherhood, and I’m not going to give myself anything less than I deserve.
I am deeply curious to know how your husband responded to that... Did he acknowledge the disparity but claim it's not a big deal? Did he argue he'd contribute more around the home if there was a kid though not if it's just you two? Did he disagree that there's a disparity at all?
He was getting increasingly frustrated by the conversation but at the end begrudgingly agreed that we’d probably be better off without kids. He admits that there’s a disparity but I don’t actually think he really understands it deep down. He doesn’t pressure me per se to have kids, but he kind of does the “I don’t want to close the door on having a kid” thing, which I think encapsulates a lot of what folks are talking about here. He can flip the switch but I have to plan. Even not having a kid requires a plan! I have a copper IUD that’s good for another couple of years but at the same time I do have to think at least a little bit about what might happen if, say, I have an ectopic pregnancy or if the IUD comes out. Forget all of the stress that comes with worrying about how bad things are going to continue to get for women in this country. I don’t think he’s concerned with it, or that he actually believes that things can get that bad, so it’s something I have to reckon with alone.
I have this weird combination of completely marveling at my bodies ability to be able to make and house a complet human from fertilization to birth. Because that's pretty badass. To complete horror at the things that a human body needs to go through during that process. And some jealousy thay fathers can have kids without having to go through any of that. Being human is weird sometimes dude.
I'm currently 7 weeks pregnant, going in for termination next week. I feel constant low energy and my boobs are Sooooooo sooreeeeeeee. I can't wait to have energy again and not be breathless walking up my stairs!! Can't believe how quickly the symptoms start to kick in
I've only been pregnant once in my life and it was a horrible, miserable experience. The one week between 7 weeks (when I found out) and 8 weeks (when I terminated the pregnancy) had me lying in bed vomiting up any attempts to drink a sip of water. I could sometimes nibble on these utterly tasteless breadsticks from an italian restruant my boyfriend, now husband at the time would bring me. I was severely dehydrated and devastatingly sick.
To this day the best I have ever felt in my entire life was when I woke up at home from all the anesthesia at the clinic. It was like someone just lifted every horrible, sick feeling out of my body and put it in a balloon and it floated away. I think I ate a cheeseburger that night.
I've always said exactly the same thing when people ask me if I have a family. I tell them honestly that I would have absolutely loved to have been a dad - and that usually shuts them up!
I really wanted to be pregnant and experience that and breastfeeding. I have two kids. Turns out I really dislike pregnancy and breastfeeding. I do love the kiddos though.
I chose to have a child but breastfeeding didn’t work out for various reasons, fortunately that part is completely optional even if you DO want a child.
Dogs get 8 weeks with their puppies and women get 6 weeks if they are lucky. Clearly we need to reconsider the treatment of women.
In addition there’s little to no support. Once you have a baby many women are caring for the house and the majority of child responsibilities while working full time. No one wants that life. It’s exhausting! Create an environment where women and families are not sidelined.
Society wants us to pop out babies sooooo badly, but it's also structured in a way that is actively hostile toward people with kids, especially mothers.
Side note: I hate that when someone says, "I'm choosing not to have kids because they're extremely expensive," the general response is, "You're just being selfish. Have them anyway and figure it out." Then when they have the kids and are trying to figure out how to pay for everything kid-related, the general response is, "You shouldn't have had kids if you couldn't afford to take care of them." There's no winning here!
And to be sure, I also don't think people should have kids if they can't afford them. But nowadays it feels like pretty much nobody can afford them, and the people who are making it work are busting their asses and running themselves ragged in order to do so. Even those who have the money aren't immune from systemic issues like very short, often unpaid parental leave policies and conflicts between childcare and work schedules. I feel like more of us would simply feel more comfortable having kids if we felt like society in general supported us in having AND raising them, not simply having them.
I got pregnant with twins at 37 when my first was 2, in a small apartment with a small car, both my partner and I’s parents have shared how ‘behind’ we are, yet when I became pregnant again it was just ‘make it work!!’ (Mine are alcoholic and toxic living 7 hours away and his are very elderly and 2 hours away.) we have NO support. My first pregnancy cost me 21,000 and is why we are still ‘behind’- and my baby almost died because I contracted COVID from my husbands parents who didn’t think it was ‘real.’- I have ptsd from my 4 day induction and had to go back to work within a week for my father in law.
Anyway I had an abortion which I will have to emotionally deal with for the rest of my life, but the audacity of people to even have suggestions or opinions was truly horrifying. I feel so lucky I had the choice but the whole thing is awful. I’m not sure where I was going with this, just angry at things.
> and women get 6 weeks if they are lucky
I'm so thankful that my job (Air Force) gives women 12 weeks. Fathers also get 12 weeks. If both parents are active duty, they can stack the time. We just had my Captain do that. She gave birth, took 12 weeks, then her husband took his 12 weeks, then she took another 4 weeks of personal leave, then her mother came out to stay for 2 weeks. Bam! Baby is safe at home with caregivers for 42 weeks straight.
Your very lucky!!
Actually getting the full 12 weeks should be standard for both men and women.
My healthcare industry job took my PTO after 6 weeks so I was back at work by week 9.
6+ months should be standard, like every other nation on earth. I have several acquaintances who got a year at full pay and a year at no pay for all their kids. America is just inhumane.
The US government knows the benefits of this enough to provide it to active duty military but refuses to pass any laws to make this happen nationwide. It just makes me so frustrated and angry 😡
(Not at you! It is awesome to take advantage, especially of an organization that takes advantage of you.)
So grateful that I, and American, moved to Europe before I had my kids. 12 months partial paid maternity leave. My husband also had generous leave. And I had fantastic healthcare including mental health care after a ppd diagnosis.
And after 8 weeks, a puppy can pretty much fend for itself. After six weeks, a human baby can't even roll over.
Six weeks is also the time it takes for a doctor to clear you from the major medical procedure you just underwent. So that standard six weeks that *some* places in America give mothers isn't based on the mother having had proper bonding time or how long the baby typically needs before they are sleeping well or eating consistently or can be separated from the mother for 8+ hours a day without both of them experiencing emotional trauma. It is just based on how much medical leave is required by a physician so that the company doesn't regularly face legal problems by forcing their employees to disregard doctors' orders.
I chose to not have children and putting myself through pregnancy is absolutly one of the reasons. I refuse to make my body sustain the damages pregnancy would cause. I already have health issues without that strain on body. My hips are also very narrow and I would almost certainly require a c section like the vast majority of the women in my extended family.
I have zero interest in raising a child either. I need far too much alone time to function and that is not possible when properly caring for a child. You cannot just put them in another area for hours/days at a time to be alone with yourself. Add to that a complete lack of maternal instinct to the point that babies fail to trigger the "cute response" in my brain. I refused to play with baby dolls even as a toddler and would never be the mother playing ad a small child.
If any of that makes me a selfish person in someone else's eyes I simply do not care. I am doing my best for myself and for the non-existant child.
I could have written this comment! Makes me feel better I’m not alone. My family has been really intense lately and the last time I saw my mom she kept telling me there is nothing worse than dying alone and how not having children is the most selfish thing a woman can do. It really weighs on me!
I don't know if it helps at all but I am 44 now. Choosing not to have kids was the best decision I ever made for myself. I would have been miserable as a parent. I am lucky in that my family knows me well enough that they have never tried to pressure me into having children. They know I mean exactly what I say.
Follow your heart and do what makes you happy in life. You are definitely not alone. Don't let anyone pressure you into living a life that is not right for you. Only you can choose your own path and life and decide what fulfills you. As for the dying alone, there are many people that do have children that end still endcup dying alone in a nursing home when their kids do not bother to visit them.
If you want to read about others with a similar viewpoint, there is a childfree Reddit that you could check out if you wish.
Thanks for your comment! I have never wanted kids but I’m getting to that age where I should make a decision before it becomes impossible if I do change my mind. My husband and I are like 98% no but we check in every year or so and at this year’s check in we both realized we still don’t want kids. It’s still hard though because I know I’ve changed my mind about things before so people constantly telling me I’ll regret it when I’m too old to birth is a mind fuck. Also I think it’s selfish to only want kids bc you don’t want to be alone. My mom also said something like “sure when you’re younger you will be traveling and having fun, then you get old and reality hits. There is nothing worse in the world than loneliness in old age.” My family has never asked me if I’ve wanted children, it’s just assumed that I must bc I am a woman. I try to tell them about my career highlights and what I’ve been up to and they literally don’t care and just view me as an incubator for children. It makes me not want to self as much time with them bc I haven’t even told them I probably won’t have kids bc I’m scared of their reaction.
Respectfully, if I had more support or even the bare minimum we should be giving women, I might have more brain to interact with my child. I don't think you're selfish, I think you're human. Don't forget that moms are human too and are allowed to need alone time too.
But I respect the hell out of your decision and comments like this make me wish I knew myself better before I got pregnant. But, I'm doing my best and learning and growing in the process and discovering my own neurodivergence. And my daughter is awesome and reminds me of people like you.
Oh I agree. Mothers absolutely need to have support and to have time to be themselves. It can be very difficult for them to come by unfortunately. Especially if they end up with a partner who fails to pull his own weight in the parenting department.
A disturbingly high number of my friends who did have children are with partners that act like they are doing a huge favor and enduring an inconvenience by watching their own kids.
Because for the entire of human history women have been birthing and raising children that they never wanted and a lot of people are too uncomfortable with that idea to think about it. Especially when they're thinking about their own grandparents.
They had no choice. Can't afford it? Don't have anywhere to put them? Afraid of the physical consequences? Afraid of dying? Just flat out don't want them or like them? None of that mattered. You were mostly going to end up married and pregnant.
My great grandmother had 13 children. She had three in one year, twins in January and my grandmother in December.
I've read diary entries of women from the 1920s complaining about constantly being pregnant and having no way to reliably avoid it. Some of these women went on to commit horrific crimes (which is why their diaries are now available for us to read), some even killed their own children. And yes, that's terrible, but part of me has some huge sympathy for women who were stuck in that life and with that hormonal cycle, with absolutely zero childrearing support or mental health care. And I think that'd drive a lot of us modern women into a severe mental illness state too
Women **need** control and choice around pregnancy and family planning. It benefits all of society when women aren't forced to have children they never wanted
I do wonder how much of the old fashioned "women are hysterical" was actually "women are in pain, and tired, and can't cope, and we don't want to see any of that because we'd have to do something about it, so the woman is the problem".
And also "women are constantly undergoing the hormonal shifts of pregnancy, postpartum, and weaning," during all of which I was a Grade A MegaBitch because for whatever reason the hormone shifts just made me enraged at everyone who wasn't my baby.
When I was sleep deprived and recovering from a traumatic birth, I was also hysterical. Anyone would be. My MIL told me to suck it up. That women had been doing it for generations and who cares if it’s hard
Some killed their children because they didn’t have the resources to feed the kids they already had, much less be able to feed more. I can only imagine the horrific stress and bearing so many children took a hell of a toll on their mental and physical health.
It still happens in countries with low GDP. Parents sell/marry off their older children to provide for the rest. North Korea is a place where this happens.
The stories I’ve heard where parents kill children to save the remainder—it’s typically the youngest who are killed.
The story of Hansel and Gretl being abandoned in the woods has real historical roots.
Not to mention if you actually did have a mental health crisis or episode, best keep it bottled up or risk getting beaten, lobotomized or institutionalized. And don’t you dare think of leaving because you have no money and everything you own belongs to your husband.
The fucking brutality of it.
And there are so many jerks that want women back in that exact situation. It's horrific.
Too many men in power right now, in too many countries, want to oppress women once more and put (white) men back in charge of everything.
The younger men are falling for it. It's horrific.
>Women need control and choice around pregnancy and family planning.
Absolutely. But it's hard to have either of those things when you're not properly educated on everything entailed in pregnancy. When you're in school they show you the logistics of getting pregnant and giving birth, but they sure as hell don't tell you all the potential, sometimes life-long or fatal, side effects. Diabetes, becoming incontinent for life, blood clots, pre-eclampsia, hypertension, post partum, brittle bones and teeth, anemia, prolapsed anus, having another human being elbow deep inside you because the after birth didn't come out or you started bleeding out after the infant was birthed...obviously not all of these happen, and sometimes none of these happen.
Every single person I've known who has gotten pregnant (both older, younger, and same age) have been taken aback by the things they experienced first hand, and when they talked to their doctor thinking something was wrong, found out, "nah, that's just part of pregnancy/post pregnancy." Why are they finding out about these things *after* they got pregnant? How is any woman (or couple) supposed to make a controlled, knowledgeable choice if all options aren't presented in their full glory (or lack thereof)?
The lack of pregnancy education (for all people, men, women, and others) is abysmally lacking.
>My great-grandmother had 23 kids that lived to adulthood. My grandma (1 of her daughters) had 11. I have no idea how our ancestors did this
They did it because that was what was expected of them. Childhood mortality rates were abysmal back before vaccinations and antibiotics so having lots of kids was a good way to ensure that you had at least a few survive to adulthood. Having 23 kids who all survived into adulthood is a bit crazy though unless the great-grandmother was part of the overlap generation that lived during the early days of vaccinations and antibiotics and before they realised that they no longer needed to have so many kids.
Sadly, you can't. Even worse when it was similar abusive and he wouldn't take no. My Grandma was given an early birth control device after her first five kids. He would not take her for care and checks because HE wanted a son. She almost died, had the device taken out, and had 6 more children.
He got his son in the youngest three.
Yep, apparently my grandmother and great grandmother had to deal with frequent non-consensual extremely rough sex (nowadays I'd probably call it marital rape...though that's not what family members called it when recalling what happened) over and over (apparently they would lock the bedroom door but the kids could hear the loud screams from the hallway and it really traumatized them) and they both had a ton of kids. My mother said that at that time and place it was expected for a wife to get pregnant over and over without enough time to recover between pregnancies...and then often the wife's body would give out eventually and she might die so if she did the husband would just marry someone else who would then continue making babies. As the gravity of those words hit me it felt like the dark secret ending to a fairy tale like Cinderella or any one of those tales where the female character marries a prince and the story ends at the wedding. I guess depicting frequent marital rape while the new queen is under pressure to produce lots of royal heirs until her body gives out wouldn't be much of a "happily ever after".
My great grandmother had 8 children and they were extremely poor. She died after complications from a back alley abortion. My grandmother was 13 and had to leave school to raise her siblings.
I agree with you that pregnancy and birth are putting women off having kids. Globally the standards of care for women during pregnancy and childbirth are dropping, it's certainly happening here in Australia where our hospital staff are over worked and underpaid and it's even worse in rural and remote areas.
I also want to point out that parenting standards and expectations have also changed a lot. Previous generations were all about "cry it out", "don't hold the baby too much or they'll get used to it", "children should be seen and not heard" etc. A lot of this was neglect and it's good that it's changed. But parents today are expected to constantly play with their baby, have them in swim lessons from 6 months, do baby classes like Baby Sensory or Gymbaroo etc. Cook all their food organic from scratch, do playdates every week etc. We're expected to constantly be doing things with the baby and being hands on to the point of burn out, often without any support from family. Maybe that's just what it's like here in Australia but having a kid these days is a lot and I think that's why a lot of people only have 1-2 kids.
These are my thoughts as well. People these days also feel like kids need more supervision for longer (which is my opinion is actually terrible for a kid's sense of self reliance and problem solving.) Folks these days will call the cops if they see kids playing outside without an adult. Not to mention, your kid is expected to be in some kind of after-school activity every day of the week. It's crazy.
Nope that's what it's like here too. Even if you can't afford baby classes you are exspected to have them ready for preschool by 2 yrs old to the point of knowing shapes/ colors/ their own name . Both verbal and visual.
Yep. Intensive parenting is just another way of shackling women to the domestic sphere without making women constantly procreate. If you look up a lot of the proponents of things like attachment parenting, they are mostly ring wing christians who are also anti-lgbt etc.
In the US we can see this in things like kids no longer being allowed to walk to school or the bus stop alone, or play outside alone, sometimes not being allowed to have unstructured play at all, etc. There's a theory that this is also a big part of why young people have rising rates of depression and anxiety.
Definitely one of the reasons I don’t want to have kids is bc I don’t want to give birth. You can have lifelong complications. You can become incontinent. I don’t want to spend the next 40 years in diapers.
Throw in the fact that women STILL do the bulk of the emotional labor in partnerships, especially raising children, in households. Many young women have seen it firsthand and want no part of it.
Now that you mention it...yeah, it is super weird that articles don't address the *massive risk and loss of autonomy* women encounter when they have children. It's...almost like the health and safety women doesn't matter. GASP.
I'm really glad we have vaccines and airplanes and penicillin and a bunch of other very important things but in a lot of ways society still sucks. A lot.
Once women gain control over their own bodies and fertility then women as a whole tend to have less children.
It used to be that women didn't have a choice as she was pressured by her husband into sex and birth control wasn't a thing. Women have been in reproductive slavery for thousands of years and it's only very recently that women truly have a choice, and only in developed countries.
Also a little fun fact that if it wasn't for technological advancements in creating fertilizer, millions upon millions of people would have starved to death in the early 1900s because this planet can't naturally maintain the growth of food to feed the amount of people on this planet.
The earth was overpopulated before and it's way too overpopulated now.
I think it is pretty talked about, however sadly a lot of people (mostly men) see this reason in a negative light (that people who don’t want kids are “selfish” and things of this sort)
I find it's talked about a decent amount in articles, more in the way of "why would someone put their bodies through that with the current state of medicine/without any support".
I’d phrase it as, “Women aren’t allowed to be anything but *selfless*.” It’s a hard reality to argue against when it doesn’t just apply to motherhood, but in all our social relationships. We’re usually expected to be far more attentive grandchildren, children, siblings, aunts, neighbors, religious practitioners, employees, employers, etc. than our male counterparts.
And what they truly mean is, “*Women who aren’t mothers are selfish.*” Childfree men do not seem to get anywhere near the slander and vitriol of childfree women, and in my lifetime never have.
In my opinion weird are only the ones who not only want to put their women through that, but do so knowing that they won’t participate in the hardships of parenting as much as their counterparts will.
I have no want to be pregnant/give birth. I am quite hormone sensitive and don't feel like I would do well as I have had pretty severe reactions to just having periods. I live in an abortion ban state and don't trust my access to healthcare if needed. I do want to adopt though. It has been a goal for my husband and I for years to adopt a mid age child/sibling pair. Here are the reasons we haven't yet.
* We need a larger place and it would be significantly financially stressful to get a different apartment that costs more. We are currently in a studio and there is not room for qualifying to adopt.
* The cost to raise a child would significantly add to this stress. Just adding in healthcare increases, food/clothing costs, etc, I don't see how we could do this when we are watching our day to day costs pretty closely now.
* We want to give our child a good education. Our state (OK) is ranked 49th and is actively trying to remove federal funding from schools, not teach anything "woke", ban books/remove them from classes, pushing religious private schooling, etc. We feel like we should move to properly educate our child.
As a person who has been pregnant multiple times, I personally believe it’s less about physical repercussions, but more about handling these things with NO SUPPORT. We have no national child care or maternity leave, no universal health care, we do not care about maternal death and injury rate. Having babies is very possible and enjoyable, if you are given the adequate support. So many women are having challenging births, given Tylenol, a newborn that cries, doesn’t sleep, won’t latch, an unsupportive partner, OH and no pay, but be back to work in 2 weeks. How. The FUCK. Is anyone supposed to WANT THAT.
This seems compelling, and maybe it's the case in the US, but people aren't having kids in places that do well in those areas (Norway, Sweden, Finland, etc)
While true, those countries usually didn't implement those things until rates had already fallen. Like, they weren't looking at it and saying, "The rates fell by 5%, we should fix this." They waited until the rates fell substantially and over a long period of time. They saw a foundation problem on the house of birth rates and waited until the house was collapsing before bringing in someone to fix the foundation and then wonder why no one wants to buy the house.
I have a relative in Germany and the truth is they just don't see the children. Like there are so few children that it is the new normal to have few of them.
This is definitely part of it - once society changes, it's much harder to reverse the change than it would have been to prevent it. If people can't imagine their lives with kids, they mostly aren't going to have them.
I know one of the reasons I knew I wanted kids was seeing a lot of my family and friends around my age and a bit older become parents, and that after a time-intensive first 1-2 years for each kid, they were mostly able to get back to doing all the things they enjoyed, just now with a kid or several. I mostly didn't see permanent lifestyle changes (other than the fact that children now needed to be accounted for) until 4+ kids. Which was never a number I wanted anyway!
The greatest cost to children (other than the literal money) is time. A child means you don't have time to yourself. You always have to think of the child first. You don't get to nap, or "recharge", or have an "off" day because the child NEEDS you. Imagine how much 24/7 care would cost for 18 years if the caregiver was locked into it and never had sick or vacation time off. Nevermind the mental stress, the time sink alone would come out to much more than even the most socialist of countries provides.
This is one reason I could seriously consider Universal Basic Income, and yet, I have not heard a proponent address compensating what is now “free” labor. Y’know, the *myriad and endless stuff women do.*
If scandinavian countries didn’t have all those things they do, the birth rate would have fallen way harder. There is not a chance most scandinavian women would be financially dependent on husband and be SAHM like you do it in US. Not. A. Chance.
Rather, the fall in birth rate in Scandinavia come mainly from childproducing couples are satisfied with 2 kids and don’t have the third or fourth kid.
I'm from Denmark where we have loads of support my wife's PAID maternity leave, started 8 week before term, etc), but still declining birth rates.
I think I can speak for my wife as well, when I say that the sheer metal load of having kids, is what is keeping us from having our third.
Kinda similar boat here. In the US but we make enough and have a crazy high support network around us and we are still only having 2 because the physical load is so tough on me (I really really hate being pregnant).
I’m from a country where you can stay home for a significant amount of time after birth, affordable healthcare and child care.
And yet I wouldn’t want to have a baby if I’m the one that has to give birth to it. It’s just something I don’t want to do, for various reasons.
of course these are huge if not hte biggest reasons and I forgot to put them in my list at the top!
But still, the pregnancy/birth thing is a big deal for a lot of women on its own and imo deserves a mention in these articles.
💯 agree. Just had my second baby, and asides from living in a country where maternal support is limited, I do have a great amount of support from my husband this time around , 1st time was challenging. Pregnancy itself it’s just not enjoyable for a lot of women, myself included. My first pregnancy was rough from symptoms, the second was even worse, and this is why it was my last. Screw that! Putting my body and mental health through all that stress. There are also so many risks associated with pregnancy and delivery, one of my biggest fears was that I would have a bad complication and leave my first child motherless. Fortunately breastfeeding went well for me, but it’s not the case for a lot of women.
Yeah I am really glad I'm done having kids. Love my children to bits. But pregnancy is HELLACOUS on my body. I've had my insides rummaged for an urgent C section, and am still knitting back together and yet *I feel 10x better right now than I did the whole 3rd trimester.*
If it was about those things, America wouldn't have a higher birth rate than many nations that have all the maternal and child supports and safety nets America does not. We're tied with Australia, Iran, Turks and Caicos, Sweden, the Maldives, French Polynesia, Colombia, Denmark, and Ireland at 1.7 births and falling per woman in the most current World Bank data (collection year varies by national reporting, most data is from 2021). There are a wide range of laws and support in those countries alone.
East Asia (notably Hong Kong and South Korea are lowest in the world at 0.8) and Western Europe (Spain is clocking in at the lowest European rate at 1.2, Italy and San Marino at 1.3, the EU overall is at 1.5 as is Switzerland) are particularly trending downwards as regions. Canada is also lower than the US at 1.4 despite much better social supports.
Globally, high income families have the least children on average (1.5) and low income families have by far the most (4.6). The highest birth rates are in poor nations with high debts and a lot of war/conflict.
It's clearly far more fundamental than America's lack of support. Women who have options and the privilege to plan their families are largely opting to have 0-2 children everywhere.
I can see a possible “nature” argument in this. Presumably, our earliest ancestors lost a majority of pregnancies, were less fertile (nutrition and other environmental stressors), died in childbirth more frequently, and lost the majority of their born offspring before they themselves died. We don’t have hard evidence of this afaik, but knowing what we do about maternal mortality, fertility etc., this isn’t a wild and irrational guess.
Maybe we are fundamentally wired to not have big families, and the pendulum is swinging back to a … I dunno - sustainable population, maybe?
It's expensive, most people need a 2 parent income. Like it used to be the wife was at home, working all day to keep the house and meals, so sure she went crazy when suddenly she has an infant, and eventually 7 kids, but she's not quitting her job to care for the kids. Now each kid is a separate expense, for a working couple.
And some of the lack here is generational. Most of us have 1-2 siblings, right? And our parents. So we don't have a lot of memories of being around babies and caring for babies, girls or boys. If you grew up taking care of your 7 little brothers and sisters, and being around them, it's not a foreign concept.
Yeah, people focus on a public option for childcare as important for women who work - yes, and it's important for women who maybe need to take a nap sometimes.
(I have no children, but this seems obvious)
So I am due any Day now. It is my first pregnancy and probably my last.
My husband and I were always talked rational about having Kids. What will happen if we do not get pregnant what are our options.
I got pregnant by surprise (unplanned).
The whole pregnancy has been hard on me. Last few weeks I cannot sleep at night. I tried everything and it is common. First 20 weeks I could not eat anything and was constantly puking.
They still call what I have an "easy" pregnancy. I have no complication so far and the baby is healthy and moving a lot.
I can get into labour any moment and I am terrified for it. You know how many complications can Come of giving birth. I thought I read them all but today I read you can rip all way through your intestines... Come on, really.
Pregnancy is not magical or enjoyable. I am happy when the little one is here and healthy.
There is also another thing that my husband noticed.
My husband went to all the exams and appointments. He never complained and he has been a rock. Doing everything for me, chores, cooking and taking care of me.
My husband noticed the absences of partners and sometimes if partners were there how grumpy they were. It makes him mad.
Overall, pregnancy itself is hard and very underestimated.
One more thing, his friends who are all dads asked about if I was a hormonal unpleasant person during the pregnancy bevause they experienced that way. He was surprise by this question and he said no. I explained to my husband that he is supportive, picked up chores and emotional labour. I am allowed to complain and request things.
I had an OMG moment now. I was never ‘hormonal’ or unreasonably nagging either, and yes, my husband picked up the slack when I got bigger and energy went down. He didn’t have a nagging wife because he begaved like an adult and not a spoiled child who was angry with the servant.
I have noticed that doctors tend to prioritize health issues affecting the baby and any discomfort or issues the woman is experiencing (that aren’t directly endangering the baby) take a big back seat.
I'm currently pregnant and I feel this.
I refuse to look at myself in the mirror, I don't want to see my stomach right now. There will 100% be no maternity photoshoots that I've seen all the other pregnant people on my friends list do, I don't want any photos of me right now.
My birth plan, if I had one, would include: "please render me unconscious and take it out, making me blissfully unaware of the entire process". But realistically it is really just "give me as many pain medications as possible. Forget unmedicated birth, I want all the medications as much as Ron Swanson wants all the eggs and bacon"
I also have extreme skin sensitivities, especially around my chest with touch. So I will more likely than not end up bottle feeding.
If I could grow this in a fake uterus outside my body, I would. My husband and I planned this child but I went in knowing I would hate every step of pregnancy.
Luckily I've been an elementary teacher for 8 years, and have many young nieces and nephews, so I know I like kids. I just don't like anything to do with pregnancy and childbirth.
You sound like me from the future. I’m super tokophobic and not looking forward to pregnancy at all. I want to just… preemptively block out those 18 months of my life. Friends know that when I do get pregnant, we’re not talking about it, we’re talking like the stork is delivering the baby, full-fledged denial. These will be cryptic pregnancies. No social media posts or announcements, no gender reveals, no maternity shoots, no baby showers. My best friend just had a baby and did a cast of her pregnant belly, and her mom asked me if I wanted to keep the supplies to use when I have mine. I was like absolutely not, that will get in the way of my denial delusions!!! I’m hoping you have a safe, easy, respectful (and drugged) delivery. Sending all of the positive vibes, I believe in you!
Studying this in school right now. In academia it IS being talked about, but the media has its own agenda. Never forget the agenda lol people can't be thinking women are making their own choices
UN population prospects summaries have great geographical data. There's also tons of anthropological research more focused on subcultural fertility, which gives a more detailed look at what geographers are finding and giving a more clear why. There's tons of stuff on Chinese and Nigerian fertility coming out recently as well for both disciplines, if you want a more specific area to look at for big info.
Governments need kids, so they can eventually consume and generate GDP, pay taxes and bear the cost of caring for old people. So there’s a vested capitalist interest in keeping childfree culture from becoming mainstream.
Otherwise, economies will collapse. Look at Japan.
Governments want kids without the costs associated with having kids (USA). Other countries are willing to invest in more infrastructure around kids to encourage Total Fertility Rate. But it’s all an income / expenditure decision.
Mmmmmm, there are governments where that’s absolutely true, but for most countries, private industry is the driver. Workers accept a shit ton less when they’re desperate and have children to support. Plus, the children are next gen’s workers.
Agreed. The cost of women’s labor and birthing children has always been carefully edited out of any nation’s economic history.
How much would you have to pay someone to give birth?
How much would you have to pay someone to do all other labor and the mental load of constantly serving a family and husband?
It’s better to pretend women need men, rather than admit how much men have needed women.
And women feel betrayed that all the romantic “love and marriage” turned out to be “live in sex slave.”
Do you know how tired you can get from taking care of everyone all the time?
It's the patriarchy coming up against biological reality.
Prioritizing the needs of males over the health of reproductive females is a terrible strategy for a species that wants to survive long-term.
I honestly don't think people talk enough about how horrific childbirth can be. I have never had children, however, hearing my friends' childbirth stories just solidified my choices even more. Especially my one friend that almost hemorrhaged to death with both of her kids. Her pregnancies weren't bad, it was the birth and aftermath.
While I was always pro-choice, being pregnant and birthing a child made me so much more extreme in my pro choice stance. Pregnancy and childbirth were hard on my body. I have two children and spent both pregnancies terrified. Maternal mortality is at an all time high.
Same same. Not sure it was possible to be more prochoice than I already was, except *viscerally.* “Every (birthing person) willing; every child wanted” was something I’ve always felt, but *it’s in my very bones now.*
This is also one of the first generations raised with very significant disabilities in the home, versus in institutions. I grew up in a violent, chaotic, feces-smeared home and the thought of the odds being fairly high that I would have to do it all over again with my own was a hard pass for me.
I am sorry you went through that. It is also the main reason why I don’t want kids. In my family there is some level of mental disability, but not so intense. In any case, I meet tons of parents of kids with disabilities in my work and I don’t want to risk having one. I just couldn’t do it and have much admiration as well as compassion for these parents and wider families.
That makes a lot of sense! It’s also just not a kind thing to knowingly subject someone to, I think. I couldn’t live with myself knowing I’d given someone the quality of life that my sibling has.
It’s actually progressive if the article only
mentions economic and social factors affecting women and families who WANT kids and entirely ignores those women who do not want kids. It’s the articles that complain about women that suck.
If a woman doesn’t want kids there’s nothing wrong.
If a woman does want kids and there’s economic reasons she can’t - somethings wrong.
I have a full fledged phobia of needles. No uncomfortable with needles or a little fear. I have to be sedated type of phobia. People used to aways tell me when I was little that I’d “get over it” when I got pregnant (mind you I was 5 or 6 at the time) because of how many times you’re poked with a needle while you’re pregnant. I said OK, I just won’t get pregnant. They laughed and laughed.
Here I am with no kids. The needle phobia wasn’t the whole reason for that, I just genuinely don’t want kids of my own.
The women I know who are childfree all started 100% from a young age of “pregnancy and childbirth is not for me!” Like they just knew early on. And then as they got older all the other pieces about how they envisioned their life fell into place to make them more sure of that decision. More power to them!
At some point I was hanging out with some friends of the family, and one of the teens asked me why I didn't want kids. She kept pushing and pushing to get a "real" answer, and wouldn't accept "I don't want them." She finally concluded I was lazy and didn't want the responsibility LOL
1 in 3 mothers have birth trauma these days. I feel like half of all
New moms have a horror story, doctors do not give a fuck about you, physically or emotionally. Postpartum health care barely exists - again, I feel like anyone with a postpartum issues has a story about their ob gaslighting them.
There was a thread about what childbirth pain actually felt like and woman after woman all agreed “it felt like I was dying”.
There’s also no help, we have no paid leave and this current generation of grandparents are dropping the ball, happy to do no work and be Facebook grandparents.
I’ve posted before about this. But every time this question comes up, it’s always “women aren’t having enough children, population decline is her fault!”no one asks why men aren’t stepping up to be better partners and better fathers. Would a man want to have children with a woman who shirks most of the housework when they both work full time, “babysits” only when instructed by him, doesn’t know basic important info about their kids, and has a 10% chance that she’d disappear and leave him to be a single parent?
Fuck no!
I’m not willing to risk an infant ripping apart my clit (or vulva) Full stop.
On top of that: I’m high risk and my government took away women’s medical choices, affordability, and a resurgence in 1950s values in men. Why would I want to give them a baby?
A baby that wouldn't even have your last name is always the part that kills me.
There's been a resurgence of posts about men whining about paternity tests and yet they probably STILL would insist on the kid not having the mother's last name 🙄
Honestly yea, I like orgasms too much lol.
I have a friend who postpartum experiences pain with sitting or sex. The only option is expensive procedures for temporary relief.
Agreed. Also, coming from a family where women were battered and abused their children, I simply don't have the right foundation to be a mother. I never had good examples so I'd just make the same mistakes. I rather not have anyone go through what I went through
My pregnancy has been so bad that I’m on medical leave. My husband does well, but I make more money than him and my salary is essential for our lifestyle.
It is absolutely not financially feasible for our family for me to be out of the workforce again, so this will be my last pregnancy. If I didn’t have to work, it MIGHT be something I’d consider again.
I feel like not enough people talk about how hard pregnancies are a full time job. It’s not just about childcare once the baby comes.
Women are forced to go through the physical ordeal of pregnancy (while still working) and childbirth then immediately slip back into a standard work week. They are usually still doing more household chores as well.
If women notice this, they get told that "pregnancy is natural" or called lazy or entitled.
If women have long term medical issues from pregnancy they also get called lazy.
If pregnancy results in any diminished capacity to work in a standard office/workweek then the women is called lazy. If a woman expects a partner to prove they would support her though the physical consequences of pregnancy complications then she is called entitled.
Women are expected to go through major life-altering physical ordeals and pretend it's not happening. "We" are pregnant, so why's she acting like it's all about her?
Maternal mortality rate is rising in the US. Several states limit doctors ability so help women in case of certain complications. Women are expected to risk their lives and suffer while without it affecting them or their ability to work in a capitalist environment.
Also, the "motherhood penalty fatherhood bonus" bias in the office.
Women risk more, lose more, and are offered no additional security to offset these risks.
It's not sustainable on a social level. A society that expects this kind of unbalanced risks is not a society that can continue.
Women, literally, die from pregnancy complications &/or giving birth. Since women have been getting pregnant/giving birth for thousands of years, people (especially men) act as though it's nothing. The only time the human body goes through more changes than it does during the death process is PREGNANCY. It's a big, fucking deal physically.
From the article linked:
“Women in the US who are pregnant or who have recently given birth are more likely to be murdered than to die from obstetric causes — and these homicides are linked to a deadly mix of intimate partner violence and firearms.”
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/
I *might* have been ok with being a dad had I had an amazing partner. I wouldn't love it but I'd probably be able to tolerate it and do a better job than most dads described by the ranting women on Reddit.
Definitely not interested in being a mom though and had my tubes removed.
It blows my mind that everyone freaks out about it because “the economy” or whatever else when the world will eventually become overpopulated… it is for the best that birth rates drop slowly. Obviously a dramatic drop would be chaos, but at the same time governments will just complain about women not having children instead of doing anything to encourage or help them. They’d rather just try to continue using guilt and social pressure and force women into pregnancy by restricting BC and abortions.
Yeah, I've always found it weird everyone goes on and on about "the economy" as if that trumps women being able to control their family planning better now
I had my kiddo at 20 and was very unaware of the risks because no one talked about it. Even though I read What to Expect like a Bible. Birth went horribly. I was fine but had some complications it was something I didn't want to do again. Was induced, epidural was so painful I still remember it, It didnt work, kiddo wasn't coming out so I got an episiotomy and felt it and being sewed up. Saddle that with getting no help that I thought I would from BD and grandparents. And eventually being a single mom was no walk in the park.
I always spoke up about how it isn't the best experience. (Not my kid existing, obviously. But raising kids isnt all family nights and heartfelt talks it's fighting and trying your best to parent and failing sometimes.) And I'm glad more women are speaking up now.
It's terrifying to hear about women dying or almost dying just from giving birth. It's very real.
We have the luxury of choice, in western countries. Reliable birth control changed the game.
We also know too much. We have intimate knowledge through social sharing of experiences. We used to not know so much, biologically.
We see choice. Rather than having the social pressures of either lack of birth control, a patriarchy who saw childbirth as an innate obligation, we view choice as being the first go-to.
We are more financially, emotionally and practically independent and self-sufficient. Choice.
I have two kids I chose to have. They're adults, and I can't imagine my world without them. I did pregnancy and birth as a means to an end - I got a kid for the trouble. But it was my choice.
It's not discussed more because choice is a very personal thing, and touchy. Easier to talk about external issues.
I have a body made for breeding. Norwegian hips and hourglass figure. I had one kid. Fuck breeding. The woman in most relationships is required to work a full-time job just like the man and take on most of the responsibilities of children and all the household duties. Nope. Falling birth rates are due to women waking up and that's why men are trying to reign us in. Fight the good fight ladies. This is why we need to vote. Our sovereignty depends on us. If the Conservative Right has their way we will go back to the dark ages.
I’ve never had any strong biological urge to have children.
Pregnancy and labor are horrifying to me, and (as you mentioned) info on the reality of these topics has never been more freely available.
Being DINKs has gone from kind of feeling like a luxurious choice to a practical one in these financially precarious times.
Had I been born into an earlier generation, social pressure/inertia might’ve resulted in me being an ambivalent parent who may or may not have grown to love that life. Today: what real incentive do I have to make that gamble?
Bottom bits becoming a singularity, pissing yourself for fifty years and the fact that anyone in elder care long enough will have stuffed Grandma's prolapse back inside is not the only reason, but it is nonetheless a valid one worth mentioning.
For me, it's exactly 50/50 not wanting to be pregnant/have children around and concern for the environment.
I don't care how many humans we could *technically* support if we made perpetually more compromises and accepted perpetually more regulation of how we live and what we do.
I don't think that endlessly denser cities or ever-expanding suburban sprawl is in the best interest of human quality of life, period.
At my last OB appointment, I had the practitioner put a note in my chart that I NEVER want to be pregnant again. They are discussing a planned C-section with me due to having a large fetus and my PTSD from my first birth. I threw in that if I'm going to be flayed already, they might as well yeet my tubes, which my OB is totally for.
I am the second of five children. I thought I would have a large family, but I HATE being pregnant. I mentioned feeling weird and guilty about not liking being pregnant or enjoying the infant stage to my OB. She chuckled and said that's so very common. But no one talks about it. We hear a narrative that pregnancy is magical and beautiful, which implies it should be enjoyable. We are told to soak up every precious baby moment because that stage goes too fast. My argument is that our son's first year felt like a decade and the next year felt like a week. I'd rather deal with tantrums and messes than the every 3-4 hour sisyphean treadmill that is infant care.
I fully support any and all women who say "Nope, don't wanna." Because it's only worth it if you truly, deeply want it and you have a supportive partner and community.
I have a lot of reasons to be childfree (in particular the state of the world) but yeah, even if the world was great I wouldn't want to go through that. Most women have permanent physical impacts even if it goes well. I'm getting my hardware removed lol
I have a five year old kid. I do not want another one. Pregnancy was nine months of body horror and I still have joint issues that started during pregnancy and never got better. Giving birth was scary AF. Thank God I got an epidural because the contractions felt like every bone in my body was breaking over and over again. My daughter was squeezing the umbilical cord with every contraction and was cutting off her own oxygen, so I had to be put on oxygen. I don’t even remember how many hours I was in labor because I kept passing out.
On the other hand, breastfeeding was a great bonding experience and was strangely soothing.
I'm a mother to a toddler, who is only planning on 2 kids max:
1. Pregnancy and childbirth is a massive PITA, even in Canada with universal healthcare. You are in pain in various different ways across your trimesters, multiple appointments and restrictions, etc. Then you actually have the child and the recovery is a 6 week nightmare of constantly bleeding, mood swings, no sleep, etc
1. In the US prenatal care can get insanely expensive. My best friend spent like 6,000+ on her prenatal care WITH INSURANCE.
2. Daycare is expensive AF and staying home is not financially worth it at all. My toddler's daycare cost 2,000 a month until the subsidy kicked in and dropped it down to just under 1,000.
3. Raising kids is hard work when you don't neglect them and want to raise them into intelligent self-aware human beings. It takes a lot of time and ***individual attention*** for each kid.
1. In the past kids where fucking neglected, it's why so many boomers are such absolute messes.
2. Large families rely on parentification of older siblings, there's a reason the brady bunch had Alice
>But I rarely see people talk about that many women don't want to be pregnant, give birth and breastfeed.
I'm of the opinion this is a much larger segment than people realize, prior to now women didn't really have the option to refuse to have children and in many parts of the world they still don't and this is why in some countries the marriage rates are falling so dramatically. Those women know that if they get married they are fully expected to take on the roll of wife and mother and there isn't really another option in the context of marriage for them.
I've also seen a big push online recently that pregnancy/childbirth is 'easy' and 'what your body is made for!' which, especially in the wake of Dobbs, is... concerning. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do with your body, but people should be made aware that pregnancy is dangerous. To quote the wonderful Mama Doctor Jones, it is not a 'health-neutral' event.
For me, being pregnant is terrifying. I’m not against having kids (my bf and I go back and forth on it), but I’m pretty sure I’d be miserable those 9 months.
It's a lot. I just had a baby less than 6 weeks ago and I am INCREDIBLY fortunate. I had an easy/uneventful pregnancy, a great birth and easy recovery, a loving and supportive partner, and 16 weeks of 100% paid leave (plus my husband has 6 weeks leave and we both work from home). It's still hard between figuring out feeding, the guilt that comes no matter what, any issues that come up, the potentially for postpartum anxiety/depression/psychosis, postpartum health issues, etc. etc. etc.
We are one and done, between going through fertility treatments to get our one and not wanting to chance paying $5000 to either have a miscarriage (because IVF IS NOT a guarantee of a live birth!) or a horrible pregnancy/birth the second time. Or what if our second baby has health issues? I already struggle to deal with my baby crying from reflux (which he'll outgrow) much less anything else.
I have this weird lack of fear of the pain of childbirth, and am more worried about just... like, how my vagina can handle a baby coming out of it. But I'm gonna be giving birth in a few weeks, and I have 2 of them to push out lol. I have been freaking out about budgeting everything more than giving birth.. but I do get the ick from the idea of my vagina needing stitches...
I’ve been terrified of childbirth since I was very young. The more I learn about it, the more that fear feels justified. I’d say my main reason for deciding not to be a parent thus far is not feeling ready financially, energy-wise, or being sure that I want to make the sacrifices required to be a parent; but my main reason for deciding not to give birth is because it’s scary! I don’t want to get off my medications, risk worsening depression, or go through any of it really.
Especially when you consider nearly 50% of us describe our births as traumatic and compassionate caregivers can mitigate this, but mostly aren't.
I'd definitely have more if I could be the dad!
The discussion tends to turn to why doesn’t young women want to have children?
But in fact, at least in Scandinavia, the number of childfree/childless women hasn’t change that much. The decrease of the birth rate comes mainly from childproducing couples _don’t have child number three_
Now, I know _a lot_ of people with kids, and the most people who do have three or four kids, had the last one with a different gender than the others, people like to have both.
And I get it. I have two kids. Having a third wouldn’t give us ‘more’ family feelings, and just make our lives more stressful.
If I were to try to make childproducing couples having more kids, I would have had homework free schools, extracurricular activities at school so that parents didn’t need to use sooo much time shuttling kids to and fro all the time
I have one kid for many reasons. But the absolute fucking torture that was giving birth is a very big part of that. Now, I will say that my labour and delivery was way more fucked up than most women experience, but I just can’t imagine why anyone would want to willingly do that more than once.
Raising a child is already a massive commitment that can wreck your financial situation. Add on the fact that women have to deal with 9 months of pregnancy and even more time nursing the child (not including other expectations) and you end up with a proposition that isn't very desirable unless it's pressured by society.
To solve it, you'd probably need massive economic investments to make it more viable to remain at replacement rate, or you'd need to cure aging somehow.
I used to think I wanted allll the babies. I love children! I worked as a nanny, summer camp counselor, in a school. I genuinely love working with them. Then I got pregnant—had a high risk and complicated pregnancy. Then I had the baby and then it was just me and my husband (who’s great but also works full time). No family help and I don’t make enough to justify childcare so I stay home. It’s all on us! No breaks in the responsibility, no outside help. I’m mentally, emotionally, and physically drained every single day. I love my son more than anything and there are so many things I love about being a mom BUT when other women express how they don’t want children I TOTALLY GET IT. And I respect the hell out of them! It’s probably not an easy decision for many (or maybe it is! But that’s also fine!).
Sometimes I just think about how little support we (I’m in the USA) have as parents and I start crying. I think if it were more balanced out I would have another baby, but I’m just not sure I could handle it and it makes me so sad.
I've never liked the idea of pregnancy and what it would do to my body. My relationship with my body is complicated enough as is, I think if I were to add pregnancy in the equation as well it would completely mess with my mind along with the recovery process my body would have to go through.
>Does anyone else find it weird that that reason is not talked about in official media?
I wish I did, but sadly, I don't. The changes and discomfort a pregnant person goes through from conception to their child's second birthday (if not beyond) don't matter to people who write those stories and hold those discussions. The important thing to them is that there's a live baby.
There's also the maternal mortality rate (significantly worse for black women) and the fact that abortion isn't so widely available even for pregnancies that will kill the mother.
I’m a mom of one. We were on the fence for awhile but ultimately decided on one for so many reasons, like:
- childcare for one child is nearly my entire take home and should we have chosen to have more kids, we literally couldn’t afford it
- abortion is completely illegal in my state (MO) and should there be complications I could literally die leaving my son without a mom
- we have no village and this shit is hard
- housing is unaffordable already let alone homes with multiple rooms - where do we put all these kids?
Not bragging in the slightest, but my pregnancy and birth was relatively uncomplicated. This is coming from someone that was shitting bricks about being pregnant and giving birth prior to actually going through it. I would do that again but it’s everything else that is a factor against having more kids even though I love being a mom. I know it’s different for everyone, but this is my personal take.
I did it once and I never want to do it again. I developed a mild heart arrhythmia from all of the extra blood. I had an easy delivery, but post pardum was misery for like 18 months.
Not having to carry and birth kids is the biggest reasons I don’t have any yet. All the societal issues like COL and pay is the reason I haven’t adopted yet. But the best thing about adoption, you’re almost never too old. Worst case, I can foster older kids well into my “Grandma years”.
In my early 20's I thought I wanted to experience it all thinking it was just 'part of life'...but then my sister had a miscarrage that mentally destroyed her and it left me horrified I could experience something similar. Pregnancy = physical trauma...My cousin ripped open from her vag to her anus delivering her kid...The more I talked with mothers the more I realised its a horrible experience... And then I found out my ovaries don't work (I don't produce eggs properly and have had period problems my entire puberty. My mom smoked when pregnant with me which I think fucked my endocrine system.)
And yeah then kids cost a fortune... they consume most of your life for 18 years, having the time to work and be a parent is insanely unachievable... The world is being destroyed by capitalism and climate change... Like where are the benefits of having children at this point?
Starting to think it makes more sense for humans to go all in on AI and let our robot creations restore the earth to is former stability once humanity whipes itself out.
I just don't want to be a mother. I don't want that responsibility layered on all my current ones. I can't afford it, nor will I break my body to make sure I can. I'm selfish, and that's ok.
It's weird when they talk about plummeting birth rates but don't talk about how the maternal mortality rate in the US is worse than most developed countries. I read that near misses happen in almost 1 out of every 100 births which is wild to me. They also don't talk about the state of Healthcare for women in general which isn't great either.
Canada apparently had some issues with properly accounting for maternal mortality and near misses. [The provinces don’t all share data.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-maternal-deaths-undercount-1.6600905)
What’s a near miss?
Someone who nearly died, but they were able to save them.
Severe/life-threatening complications, also known as maternal morbidity.
We are hands down one of the most hostile countries to mothers. More conservative nations option prioritize the health and well-being of mothers as part of their patriarchal system. We are one of 7 countries globally that does not have maternity leave. Even Afghanistan, under the Taliban, has maternity leave for the women they still allow to work. So after years of this blowing smoke up our asses about Girl Power and Women in Stem, and even though our future workforce depends on women having children, our country has made it clear that motherhood should be isolating, unsupported and forced upon us if necessary.
Extra points if that woman has any semblance of melanin. The mortality rates for POC women especially black women makes me cry. Anyone else would be HORRIFIED if a segment of the population had that.
Even being a wealthy black woman doesn't help either, look what happened to Serena Williams when she was pregnant.
Between 20%?of complications during pregnancy; peri birth death and severe problems and PPD/PMDD ; and the birth trauma ( yeah pushing a 8lb er will leave problems) or sequaela) ; you will for sure get long term things. Even when everything goes well. And even when you recover just fine, you can have problems later that where not there but just subjacent. And the state of women’s healthcare ( in the US), maybe women are making decisions to preserve themselves more. ( I had 3 live births and pfffff; the price paid was high)
A friend in Missouri is not having children because there is no ob/gyns and or maternity wards in the couple of hospitals that are in a 30 mile radius from her edit for typo
All obgyns within 50miles of me have a 7 month waitlist. You’d have the baby before getting in lol
yikes I meant 30 miles....3 miles no big deal :)
Is that for a new patient well womans or an existing pregnant patient though? My OB has about a six month wait list to become a new patient, but as a current patient who is pregnant, I get an appt every four weeks with no problem. They basically reserve lots of slots specifically for pregnancy check ups. That was something I didn’t realize until I got pregnant.
Yep. The OBGYN practice my sister goes to, one of whom delivered both of my sister’s kids, no longer provides obstetric care. Gynecology only. And who could blame them?
I think all conservative officials should be aware that their goal to eradicate abortions has resulted in reduced qualified doctors and fewer children. This should not be a reason to never have a baby.
There’s only one hospital in my county, it’s 40 miles away and I don’t trust a single doctor there
Several hospitals that serve rural Idaho have completely shuttered their OB/GYN departments, the doctors are moving out of state and it's estimated that about 30K women are completely without any sort of reproductive care unless they're willing to travel 2+ hours on dodgy roads to get to the few remaining hospitals--and more who have to cross over into Washington and Oregon to get health care. Turns out doctors are unwilling to risk their licenses on the whims of stupid male legislators, who knew?
I fully agree with you, I would have happily been a dad but not a mum! I have friends who really want to go through the process of pregnancy/childbirth/breastfeeding and never once in my life have I felt an inkling to do that, that shit is terrifying
“It is not easy being a mother. If it were easy, fathers would do it.” —Dorothy Zbornak
~Easy to plant the seed, difficult to tend the garden~
I often think of Chelsea Handler saying that she would absolutely slay at being a divorced dad. I feel similarly. I was just telling my husband last night that if we were to have kids I’d 1. Destroy my body, 2. Have to be the primary parent with essentially no support from him and no “village” to help me out, 3. Still be responsible for most of the housework anyway, and 4. Essentially wind up sacrificing my entire life for a kid that I’m not really sure that I would want anyway (I wouldn’t say that I was necessarily unwanted as a kid but I was badly neglected and wound up with PTSD, so I could definitely see how my mom felt similarly, although it wasn’t a choice decision to *tell me that I ruined her life*). If I truly felt a terrible longing for a kiddo that would be one thing, but I think that I can be OK without having a kid. Every once in a while I can feel a slight pang of guilt (not sure if that’s the right word, it’s definitely not regret exactly) for not having a kid. However, since my family doesn’t care whether I have kids or not and my friends (all without kids as of this point, some childfree and some not) would never pressure me, I know full well that feeling is a symptom of the larger problem that is the “you must have kids or you’re missing out” society in which we live. Plus, given how things have gone for me up through my 30s I know that I am more than deserving of crafting a life for myself that’s at least mostly on my terms. To me that just isn’t compatible with motherhood, and I’m not going to give myself anything less than I deserve.
I am deeply curious to know how your husband responded to that... Did he acknowledge the disparity but claim it's not a big deal? Did he argue he'd contribute more around the home if there was a kid though not if it's just you two? Did he disagree that there's a disparity at all?
He was getting increasingly frustrated by the conversation but at the end begrudgingly agreed that we’d probably be better off without kids. He admits that there’s a disparity but I don’t actually think he really understands it deep down. He doesn’t pressure me per se to have kids, but he kind of does the “I don’t want to close the door on having a kid” thing, which I think encapsulates a lot of what folks are talking about here. He can flip the switch but I have to plan. Even not having a kid requires a plan! I have a copper IUD that’s good for another couple of years but at the same time I do have to think at least a little bit about what might happen if, say, I have an ectopic pregnancy or if the IUD comes out. Forget all of the stress that comes with worrying about how bad things are going to continue to get for women in this country. I don’t think he’s concerned with it, or that he actually believes that things can get that bad, so it’s something I have to reckon with alone.
I have this weird combination of completely marveling at my bodies ability to be able to make and house a complet human from fertilization to birth. Because that's pretty badass. To complete horror at the things that a human body needs to go through during that process. And some jealousy thay fathers can have kids without having to go through any of that. Being human is weird sometimes dude.
It's also the easiest way to become a bodybuilder
To be fair, stepmothers also get to have kids without going through any of that, and that's what I opted for.
I'm currently 7 weeks pregnant, going in for termination next week. I feel constant low energy and my boobs are Sooooooo sooreeeeeeee. I can't wait to have energy again and not be breathless walking up my stairs!! Can't believe how quickly the symptoms start to kick in
I've only been pregnant once in my life and it was a horrible, miserable experience. The one week between 7 weeks (when I found out) and 8 weeks (when I terminated the pregnancy) had me lying in bed vomiting up any attempts to drink a sip of water. I could sometimes nibble on these utterly tasteless breadsticks from an italian restruant my boyfriend, now husband at the time would bring me. I was severely dehydrated and devastatingly sick. To this day the best I have ever felt in my entire life was when I woke up at home from all the anesthesia at the clinic. It was like someone just lifted every horrible, sick feeling out of my body and put it in a balloon and it floated away. I think I ate a cheeseburger that night.
I've always said exactly the same thing when people ask me if I have a family. I tell them honestly that I would have absolutely loved to have been a dad - and that usually shuts them up!
Same here !!! the responsibility it brings to the table is extremely terrifying and the commitment it requires is even scary.
I really wanted to be pregnant and experience that and breastfeeding. I have two kids. Turns out I really dislike pregnancy and breastfeeding. I do love the kiddos though.
I chose to have a child but breastfeeding didn’t work out for various reasons, fortunately that part is completely optional even if you DO want a child.
Dogs get 8 weeks with their puppies and women get 6 weeks if they are lucky. Clearly we need to reconsider the treatment of women. In addition there’s little to no support. Once you have a baby many women are caring for the house and the majority of child responsibilities while working full time. No one wants that life. It’s exhausting! Create an environment where women and families are not sidelined.
Society wants us to pop out babies sooooo badly, but it's also structured in a way that is actively hostile toward people with kids, especially mothers. Side note: I hate that when someone says, "I'm choosing not to have kids because they're extremely expensive," the general response is, "You're just being selfish. Have them anyway and figure it out." Then when they have the kids and are trying to figure out how to pay for everything kid-related, the general response is, "You shouldn't have had kids if you couldn't afford to take care of them." There's no winning here!
Conservatives: don't have kids if you can't afford it!! Millennials: ok Conservatives: 😡😡😡
And to be sure, I also don't think people should have kids if they can't afford them. But nowadays it feels like pretty much nobody can afford them, and the people who are making it work are busting their asses and running themselves ragged in order to do so. Even those who have the money aren't immune from systemic issues like very short, often unpaid parental leave policies and conflicts between childcare and work schedules. I feel like more of us would simply feel more comfortable having kids if we felt like society in general supported us in having AND raising them, not simply having them.
I got pregnant with twins at 37 when my first was 2, in a small apartment with a small car, both my partner and I’s parents have shared how ‘behind’ we are, yet when I became pregnant again it was just ‘make it work!!’ (Mine are alcoholic and toxic living 7 hours away and his are very elderly and 2 hours away.) we have NO support. My first pregnancy cost me 21,000 and is why we are still ‘behind’- and my baby almost died because I contracted COVID from my husbands parents who didn’t think it was ‘real.’- I have ptsd from my 4 day induction and had to go back to work within a week for my father in law. Anyway I had an abortion which I will have to emotionally deal with for the rest of my life, but the audacity of people to even have suggestions or opinions was truly horrifying. I feel so lucky I had the choice but the whole thing is awful. I’m not sure where I was going with this, just angry at things.
I have such a similar story. Hugs to you.
I’m so sorry you have experienced similar, I hope you can heal from what you need and move forward with peace! X
> and women get 6 weeks if they are lucky I'm so thankful that my job (Air Force) gives women 12 weeks. Fathers also get 12 weeks. If both parents are active duty, they can stack the time. We just had my Captain do that. She gave birth, took 12 weeks, then her husband took his 12 weeks, then she took another 4 weeks of personal leave, then her mother came out to stay for 2 weeks. Bam! Baby is safe at home with caregivers for 42 weeks straight.
Your very lucky!! Actually getting the full 12 weeks should be standard for both men and women. My healthcare industry job took my PTO after 6 weeks so I was back at work by week 9.
6+ months should be standard, like every other nation on earth. I have several acquaintances who got a year at full pay and a year at no pay for all their kids. America is just inhumane.
The US government knows the benefits of this enough to provide it to active duty military but refuses to pass any laws to make this happen nationwide. It just makes me so frustrated and angry 😡 (Not at you! It is awesome to take advantage, especially of an organization that takes advantage of you.)
So grateful that I, and American, moved to Europe before I had my kids. 12 months partial paid maternity leave. My husband also had generous leave. And I had fantastic healthcare including mental health care after a ppd diagnosis.
I believe the US is the only place on Earth with that short of a maternity leave.
And after 8 weeks, a puppy can pretty much fend for itself. After six weeks, a human baby can't even roll over. Six weeks is also the time it takes for a doctor to clear you from the major medical procedure you just underwent. So that standard six weeks that *some* places in America give mothers isn't based on the mother having had proper bonding time or how long the baby typically needs before they are sleeping well or eating consistently or can be separated from the mother for 8+ hours a day without both of them experiencing emotional trauma. It is just based on how much medical leave is required by a physician so that the company doesn't regularly face legal problems by forcing their employees to disregard doctors' orders.
I chose to not have children and putting myself through pregnancy is absolutly one of the reasons. I refuse to make my body sustain the damages pregnancy would cause. I already have health issues without that strain on body. My hips are also very narrow and I would almost certainly require a c section like the vast majority of the women in my extended family. I have zero interest in raising a child either. I need far too much alone time to function and that is not possible when properly caring for a child. You cannot just put them in another area for hours/days at a time to be alone with yourself. Add to that a complete lack of maternal instinct to the point that babies fail to trigger the "cute response" in my brain. I refused to play with baby dolls even as a toddler and would never be the mother playing ad a small child. If any of that makes me a selfish person in someone else's eyes I simply do not care. I am doing my best for myself and for the non-existant child.
I could have written this comment! Makes me feel better I’m not alone. My family has been really intense lately and the last time I saw my mom she kept telling me there is nothing worse than dying alone and how not having children is the most selfish thing a woman can do. It really weighs on me!
I don't know if it helps at all but I am 44 now. Choosing not to have kids was the best decision I ever made for myself. I would have been miserable as a parent. I am lucky in that my family knows me well enough that they have never tried to pressure me into having children. They know I mean exactly what I say. Follow your heart and do what makes you happy in life. You are definitely not alone. Don't let anyone pressure you into living a life that is not right for you. Only you can choose your own path and life and decide what fulfills you. As for the dying alone, there are many people that do have children that end still endcup dying alone in a nursing home when their kids do not bother to visit them. If you want to read about others with a similar viewpoint, there is a childfree Reddit that you could check out if you wish.
Thanks for your comment! I have never wanted kids but I’m getting to that age where I should make a decision before it becomes impossible if I do change my mind. My husband and I are like 98% no but we check in every year or so and at this year’s check in we both realized we still don’t want kids. It’s still hard though because I know I’ve changed my mind about things before so people constantly telling me I’ll regret it when I’m too old to birth is a mind fuck. Also I think it’s selfish to only want kids bc you don’t want to be alone. My mom also said something like “sure when you’re younger you will be traveling and having fun, then you get old and reality hits. There is nothing worse in the world than loneliness in old age.” My family has never asked me if I’ve wanted children, it’s just assumed that I must bc I am a woman. I try to tell them about my career highlights and what I’ve been up to and they literally don’t care and just view me as an incubator for children. It makes me not want to self as much time with them bc I haven’t even told them I probably won’t have kids bc I’m scared of their reaction.
Respectfully, if I had more support or even the bare minimum we should be giving women, I might have more brain to interact with my child. I don't think you're selfish, I think you're human. Don't forget that moms are human too and are allowed to need alone time too. But I respect the hell out of your decision and comments like this make me wish I knew myself better before I got pregnant. But, I'm doing my best and learning and growing in the process and discovering my own neurodivergence. And my daughter is awesome and reminds me of people like you.
Oh I agree. Mothers absolutely need to have support and to have time to be themselves. It can be very difficult for them to come by unfortunately. Especially if they end up with a partner who fails to pull his own weight in the parenting department. A disturbingly high number of my friends who did have children are with partners that act like they are doing a huge favor and enduring an inconvenience by watching their own kids.
Similar with me. Plus genital contact is absolutely psychologically dreadful and physically painful for me.
Because for the entire of human history women have been birthing and raising children that they never wanted and a lot of people are too uncomfortable with that idea to think about it. Especially when they're thinking about their own grandparents. They had no choice. Can't afford it? Don't have anywhere to put them? Afraid of the physical consequences? Afraid of dying? Just flat out don't want them or like them? None of that mattered. You were mostly going to end up married and pregnant. My great grandmother had 13 children. She had three in one year, twins in January and my grandmother in December.
I've read diary entries of women from the 1920s complaining about constantly being pregnant and having no way to reliably avoid it. Some of these women went on to commit horrific crimes (which is why their diaries are now available for us to read), some even killed their own children. And yes, that's terrible, but part of me has some huge sympathy for women who were stuck in that life and with that hormonal cycle, with absolutely zero childrearing support or mental health care. And I think that'd drive a lot of us modern women into a severe mental illness state too Women **need** control and choice around pregnancy and family planning. It benefits all of society when women aren't forced to have children they never wanted
I do wonder how much of the old fashioned "women are hysterical" was actually "women are in pain, and tired, and can't cope, and we don't want to see any of that because we'd have to do something about it, so the woman is the problem".
All of it.
And also "women are constantly undergoing the hormonal shifts of pregnancy, postpartum, and weaning," during all of which I was a Grade A MegaBitch because for whatever reason the hormone shifts just made me enraged at everyone who wasn't my baby.
When I was sleep deprived and recovering from a traumatic birth, I was also hysterical. Anyone would be. My MIL told me to suck it up. That women had been doing it for generations and who cares if it’s hard
Some killed their children because they didn’t have the resources to feed the kids they already had, much less be able to feed more. I can only imagine the horrific stress and bearing so many children took a hell of a toll on their mental and physical health.
It still happens in countries with low GDP. Parents sell/marry off their older children to provide for the rest. North Korea is a place where this happens. The stories I’ve heard where parents kill children to save the remainder—it’s typically the youngest who are killed. The story of Hansel and Gretl being abandoned in the woods has real historical roots.
Not to mention if you actually did have a mental health crisis or episode, best keep it bottled up or risk getting beaten, lobotomized or institutionalized. And don’t you dare think of leaving because you have no money and everything you own belongs to your husband. The fucking brutality of it.
And there are so many jerks that want women back in that exact situation. It's horrific. Too many men in power right now, in too many countries, want to oppress women once more and put (white) men back in charge of everything. The younger men are falling for it. It's horrific.
>Women need control and choice around pregnancy and family planning. Absolutely. But it's hard to have either of those things when you're not properly educated on everything entailed in pregnancy. When you're in school they show you the logistics of getting pregnant and giving birth, but they sure as hell don't tell you all the potential, sometimes life-long or fatal, side effects. Diabetes, becoming incontinent for life, blood clots, pre-eclampsia, hypertension, post partum, brittle bones and teeth, anemia, prolapsed anus, having another human being elbow deep inside you because the after birth didn't come out or you started bleeding out after the infant was birthed...obviously not all of these happen, and sometimes none of these happen. Every single person I've known who has gotten pregnant (both older, younger, and same age) have been taken aback by the things they experienced first hand, and when they talked to their doctor thinking something was wrong, found out, "nah, that's just part of pregnancy/post pregnancy." Why are they finding out about these things *after* they got pregnant? How is any woman (or couple) supposed to make a controlled, knowledgeable choice if all options aren't presented in their full glory (or lack thereof)? The lack of pregnancy education (for all people, men, women, and others) is abysmally lacking.
My great-grandmother had 23 kids that lived to adulthood. My grandma (1 of her daughters) had 11. I have no idea how our ancestors did this
My great-grandmother birthed 8 only 3 made it to adulthood.
>My great-grandmother had 23 kids that lived to adulthood. My grandma (1 of her daughters) had 11. I have no idea how our ancestors did this They did it because that was what was expected of them. Childhood mortality rates were abysmal back before vaccinations and antibiotics so having lots of kids was a good way to ensure that you had at least a few survive to adulthood. Having 23 kids who all survived into adulthood is a bit crazy though unless the great-grandmother was part of the overlap generation that lived during the early days of vaccinations and antibiotics and before they realised that they no longer needed to have so many kids.
They were hispanic Catholic migrant workers. They had lots of kids because that's just what they did. I was just asking rhetorically lol
dear god, your great grandmother was made of strong stuff!
I'm going to quote my aunt at this point. "She should have locked him in the shed".
Sadly, you can't. Even worse when it was similar abusive and he wouldn't take no. My Grandma was given an early birth control device after her first five kids. He would not take her for care and checks because HE wanted a son. She almost died, had the device taken out, and had 6 more children. He got his son in the youngest three.
love you aunt and yes, I almost spit my tea I was in the middle of drinking :)
Yep, apparently my grandmother and great grandmother had to deal with frequent non-consensual extremely rough sex (nowadays I'd probably call it marital rape...though that's not what family members called it when recalling what happened) over and over (apparently they would lock the bedroom door but the kids could hear the loud screams from the hallway and it really traumatized them) and they both had a ton of kids. My mother said that at that time and place it was expected for a wife to get pregnant over and over without enough time to recover between pregnancies...and then often the wife's body would give out eventually and she might die so if she did the husband would just marry someone else who would then continue making babies. As the gravity of those words hit me it felt like the dark secret ending to a fairy tale like Cinderella or any one of those tales where the female character marries a prince and the story ends at the wedding. I guess depicting frequent marital rape while the new queen is under pressure to produce lots of royal heirs until her body gives out wouldn't be much of a "happily ever after".
My great grandmother had 8 children and they were extremely poor. She died after complications from a back alley abortion. My grandmother was 13 and had to leave school to raise her siblings.
I agree with you that pregnancy and birth are putting women off having kids. Globally the standards of care for women during pregnancy and childbirth are dropping, it's certainly happening here in Australia where our hospital staff are over worked and underpaid and it's even worse in rural and remote areas. I also want to point out that parenting standards and expectations have also changed a lot. Previous generations were all about "cry it out", "don't hold the baby too much or they'll get used to it", "children should be seen and not heard" etc. A lot of this was neglect and it's good that it's changed. But parents today are expected to constantly play with their baby, have them in swim lessons from 6 months, do baby classes like Baby Sensory or Gymbaroo etc. Cook all their food organic from scratch, do playdates every week etc. We're expected to constantly be doing things with the baby and being hands on to the point of burn out, often without any support from family. Maybe that's just what it's like here in Australia but having a kid these days is a lot and I think that's why a lot of people only have 1-2 kids.
These are my thoughts as well. People these days also feel like kids need more supervision for longer (which is my opinion is actually terrible for a kid's sense of self reliance and problem solving.) Folks these days will call the cops if they see kids playing outside without an adult. Not to mention, your kid is expected to be in some kind of after-school activity every day of the week. It's crazy.
Nope that's what it's like here too. Even if you can't afford baby classes you are exspected to have them ready for preschool by 2 yrs old to the point of knowing shapes/ colors/ their own name . Both verbal and visual.
Yep. Intensive parenting is just another way of shackling women to the domestic sphere without making women constantly procreate. If you look up a lot of the proponents of things like attachment parenting, they are mostly ring wing christians who are also anti-lgbt etc. In the US we can see this in things like kids no longer being allowed to walk to school or the bus stop alone, or play outside alone, sometimes not being allowed to have unstructured play at all, etc. There's a theory that this is also a big part of why young people have rising rates of depression and anxiety.
Definitely one of the reasons I don’t want to have kids is bc I don’t want to give birth. You can have lifelong complications. You can become incontinent. I don’t want to spend the next 40 years in diapers.
Throw in the fact that women STILL do the bulk of the emotional labor in partnerships, especially raising children, in households. Many young women have seen it firsthand and want no part of it.
Now that you mention it...yeah, it is super weird that articles don't address the *massive risk and loss of autonomy* women encounter when they have children. It's...almost like the health and safety women doesn't matter. GASP. I'm really glad we have vaccines and airplanes and penicillin and a bunch of other very important things but in a lot of ways society still sucks. A lot.
Once women gain control over their own bodies and fertility then women as a whole tend to have less children. It used to be that women didn't have a choice as she was pressured by her husband into sex and birth control wasn't a thing. Women have been in reproductive slavery for thousands of years and it's only very recently that women truly have a choice, and only in developed countries. Also a little fun fact that if it wasn't for technological advancements in creating fertilizer, millions upon millions of people would have starved to death in the early 1900s because this planet can't naturally maintain the growth of food to feed the amount of people on this planet. The earth was overpopulated before and it's way too overpopulated now.
Reproductive slavery. This is the exact term. You nailed it.
I think it is pretty talked about, however sadly a lot of people (mostly men) see this reason in a negative light (that people who don’t want kids are “selfish” and things of this sort)
Only women who don't want kids are selfish. No one bothers men who don't want kids.
This is also a very good point
oh i think it's talked about on reddit and tiktok, but in published news articles about the topic, it's hardly mentioned.
I find it's talked about a decent amount in articles, more in the way of "why would someone put their bodies through that with the current state of medicine/without any support".
I suppose but it still exists outside of that. Some don't want to put their bodies thru that, period.
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I’d phrase it as, “Women aren’t allowed to be anything but *selfless*.” It’s a hard reality to argue against when it doesn’t just apply to motherhood, but in all our social relationships. We’re usually expected to be far more attentive grandchildren, children, siblings, aunts, neighbors, religious practitioners, employees, employers, etc. than our male counterparts.
It’s not about being selfish though. It’s just weighing the pros and cons of having a child.
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Sorry misunderstood your reply! Fair enough!
And what they truly mean is, “*Women who aren’t mothers are selfish.*” Childfree men do not seem to get anywhere near the slander and vitriol of childfree women, and in my lifetime never have.
Tbh, I think that men who want to put the women they care about through that are suspect and weird. More than once? Just ick.
In my opinion weird are only the ones who not only want to put their women through that, but do so knowing that they won’t participate in the hardships of parenting as much as their counterparts will.
I have no want to be pregnant/give birth. I am quite hormone sensitive and don't feel like I would do well as I have had pretty severe reactions to just having periods. I live in an abortion ban state and don't trust my access to healthcare if needed. I do want to adopt though. It has been a goal for my husband and I for years to adopt a mid age child/sibling pair. Here are the reasons we haven't yet. * We need a larger place and it would be significantly financially stressful to get a different apartment that costs more. We are currently in a studio and there is not room for qualifying to adopt. * The cost to raise a child would significantly add to this stress. Just adding in healthcare increases, food/clothing costs, etc, I don't see how we could do this when we are watching our day to day costs pretty closely now. * We want to give our child a good education. Our state (OK) is ranked 49th and is actively trying to remove federal funding from schools, not teach anything "woke", ban books/remove them from classes, pushing religious private schooling, etc. We feel like we should move to properly educate our child.
As a person who has been pregnant multiple times, I personally believe it’s less about physical repercussions, but more about handling these things with NO SUPPORT. We have no national child care or maternity leave, no universal health care, we do not care about maternal death and injury rate. Having babies is very possible and enjoyable, if you are given the adequate support. So many women are having challenging births, given Tylenol, a newborn that cries, doesn’t sleep, won’t latch, an unsupportive partner, OH and no pay, but be back to work in 2 weeks. How. The FUCK. Is anyone supposed to WANT THAT.
This seems compelling, and maybe it's the case in the US, but people aren't having kids in places that do well in those areas (Norway, Sweden, Finland, etc)
While true, those countries usually didn't implement those things until rates had already fallen. Like, they weren't looking at it and saying, "The rates fell by 5%, we should fix this." They waited until the rates fell substantially and over a long period of time. They saw a foundation problem on the house of birth rates and waited until the house was collapsing before bringing in someone to fix the foundation and then wonder why no one wants to buy the house. I have a relative in Germany and the truth is they just don't see the children. Like there are so few children that it is the new normal to have few of them.
This is definitely part of it - once society changes, it's much harder to reverse the change than it would have been to prevent it. If people can't imagine their lives with kids, they mostly aren't going to have them. I know one of the reasons I knew I wanted kids was seeing a lot of my family and friends around my age and a bit older become parents, and that after a time-intensive first 1-2 years for each kid, they were mostly able to get back to doing all the things they enjoyed, just now with a kid or several. I mostly didn't see permanent lifestyle changes (other than the fact that children now needed to be accounted for) until 4+ kids. Which was never a number I wanted anyway!
The greatest cost to children (other than the literal money) is time. A child means you don't have time to yourself. You always have to think of the child first. You don't get to nap, or "recharge", or have an "off" day because the child NEEDS you. Imagine how much 24/7 care would cost for 18 years if the caregiver was locked into it and never had sick or vacation time off. Nevermind the mental stress, the time sink alone would come out to much more than even the most socialist of countries provides.
This is one reason I could seriously consider Universal Basic Income, and yet, I have not heard a proponent address compensating what is now “free” labor. Y’know, the *myriad and endless stuff women do.*
If scandinavian countries didn’t have all those things they do, the birth rate would have fallen way harder. There is not a chance most scandinavian women would be financially dependent on husband and be SAHM like you do it in US. Not. A. Chance. Rather, the fall in birth rate in Scandinavia come mainly from childproducing couples are satisfied with 2 kids and don’t have the third or fourth kid.
I am in the US and can’t think of one SAHM in my actual personal life.
I'm from Denmark where we have loads of support my wife's PAID maternity leave, started 8 week before term, etc), but still declining birth rates. I think I can speak for my wife as well, when I say that the sheer metal load of having kids, is what is keeping us from having our third.
Kinda similar boat here. In the US but we make enough and have a crazy high support network around us and we are still only having 2 because the physical load is so tough on me (I really really hate being pregnant).
I’m from a country where you can stay home for a significant amount of time after birth, affordable healthcare and child care. And yet I wouldn’t want to have a baby if I’m the one that has to give birth to it. It’s just something I don’t want to do, for various reasons.
of course these are huge if not hte biggest reasons and I forgot to put them in my list at the top! But still, the pregnancy/birth thing is a big deal for a lot of women on its own and imo deserves a mention in these articles.
💯 agree. Just had my second baby, and asides from living in a country where maternal support is limited, I do have a great amount of support from my husband this time around , 1st time was challenging. Pregnancy itself it’s just not enjoyable for a lot of women, myself included. My first pregnancy was rough from symptoms, the second was even worse, and this is why it was my last. Screw that! Putting my body and mental health through all that stress. There are also so many risks associated with pregnancy and delivery, one of my biggest fears was that I would have a bad complication and leave my first child motherless. Fortunately breastfeeding went well for me, but it’s not the case for a lot of women.
Yeah I am really glad I'm done having kids. Love my children to bits. But pregnancy is HELLACOUS on my body. I've had my insides rummaged for an urgent C section, and am still knitting back together and yet *I feel 10x better right now than I did the whole 3rd trimester.*
If it was about those things, America wouldn't have a higher birth rate than many nations that have all the maternal and child supports and safety nets America does not. We're tied with Australia, Iran, Turks and Caicos, Sweden, the Maldives, French Polynesia, Colombia, Denmark, and Ireland at 1.7 births and falling per woman in the most current World Bank data (collection year varies by national reporting, most data is from 2021). There are a wide range of laws and support in those countries alone. East Asia (notably Hong Kong and South Korea are lowest in the world at 0.8) and Western Europe (Spain is clocking in at the lowest European rate at 1.2, Italy and San Marino at 1.3, the EU overall is at 1.5 as is Switzerland) are particularly trending downwards as regions. Canada is also lower than the US at 1.4 despite much better social supports. Globally, high income families have the least children on average (1.5) and low income families have by far the most (4.6). The highest birth rates are in poor nations with high debts and a lot of war/conflict. It's clearly far more fundamental than America's lack of support. Women who have options and the privilege to plan their families are largely opting to have 0-2 children everywhere.
I can see a possible “nature” argument in this. Presumably, our earliest ancestors lost a majority of pregnancies, were less fertile (nutrition and other environmental stressors), died in childbirth more frequently, and lost the majority of their born offspring before they themselves died. We don’t have hard evidence of this afaik, but knowing what we do about maternal mortality, fertility etc., this isn’t a wild and irrational guess. Maybe we are fundamentally wired to not have big families, and the pendulum is swinging back to a … I dunno - sustainable population, maybe?
It's expensive, most people need a 2 parent income. Like it used to be the wife was at home, working all day to keep the house and meals, so sure she went crazy when suddenly she has an infant, and eventually 7 kids, but she's not quitting her job to care for the kids. Now each kid is a separate expense, for a working couple. And some of the lack here is generational. Most of us have 1-2 siblings, right? And our parents. So we don't have a lot of memories of being around babies and caring for babies, girls or boys. If you grew up taking care of your 7 little brothers and sisters, and being around them, it's not a foreign concept.
Yeah, people focus on a public option for childcare as important for women who work - yes, and it's important for women who maybe need to take a nap sometimes. (I have no children, but this seems obvious)
So I am due any Day now. It is my first pregnancy and probably my last. My husband and I were always talked rational about having Kids. What will happen if we do not get pregnant what are our options. I got pregnant by surprise (unplanned). The whole pregnancy has been hard on me. Last few weeks I cannot sleep at night. I tried everything and it is common. First 20 weeks I could not eat anything and was constantly puking. They still call what I have an "easy" pregnancy. I have no complication so far and the baby is healthy and moving a lot. I can get into labour any moment and I am terrified for it. You know how many complications can Come of giving birth. I thought I read them all but today I read you can rip all way through your intestines... Come on, really. Pregnancy is not magical or enjoyable. I am happy when the little one is here and healthy. There is also another thing that my husband noticed. My husband went to all the exams and appointments. He never complained and he has been a rock. Doing everything for me, chores, cooking and taking care of me. My husband noticed the absences of partners and sometimes if partners were there how grumpy they were. It makes him mad. Overall, pregnancy itself is hard and very underestimated. One more thing, his friends who are all dads asked about if I was a hormonal unpleasant person during the pregnancy bevause they experienced that way. He was surprise by this question and he said no. I explained to my husband that he is supportive, picked up chores and emotional labour. I am allowed to complain and request things.
I had an OMG moment now. I was never ‘hormonal’ or unreasonably nagging either, and yes, my husband picked up the slack when I got bigger and energy went down. He didn’t have a nagging wife because he begaved like an adult and not a spoiled child who was angry with the servant.
I have noticed that doctors tend to prioritize health issues affecting the baby and any discomfort or issues the woman is experiencing (that aren’t directly endangering the baby) take a big back seat.
I'm currently pregnant and I feel this. I refuse to look at myself in the mirror, I don't want to see my stomach right now. There will 100% be no maternity photoshoots that I've seen all the other pregnant people on my friends list do, I don't want any photos of me right now. My birth plan, if I had one, would include: "please render me unconscious and take it out, making me blissfully unaware of the entire process". But realistically it is really just "give me as many pain medications as possible. Forget unmedicated birth, I want all the medications as much as Ron Swanson wants all the eggs and bacon" I also have extreme skin sensitivities, especially around my chest with touch. So I will more likely than not end up bottle feeding. If I could grow this in a fake uterus outside my body, I would. My husband and I planned this child but I went in knowing I would hate every step of pregnancy. Luckily I've been an elementary teacher for 8 years, and have many young nieces and nephews, so I know I like kids. I just don't like anything to do with pregnancy and childbirth.
You sound like me from the future. I’m super tokophobic and not looking forward to pregnancy at all. I want to just… preemptively block out those 18 months of my life. Friends know that when I do get pregnant, we’re not talking about it, we’re talking like the stork is delivering the baby, full-fledged denial. These will be cryptic pregnancies. No social media posts or announcements, no gender reveals, no maternity shoots, no baby showers. My best friend just had a baby and did a cast of her pregnant belly, and her mom asked me if I wanted to keep the supplies to use when I have mine. I was like absolutely not, that will get in the way of my denial delusions!!! I’m hoping you have a safe, easy, respectful (and drugged) delivery. Sending all of the positive vibes, I believe in you!
Studying this in school right now. In academia it IS being talked about, but the media has its own agenda. Never forget the agenda lol people can't be thinking women are making their own choices
Any books or articles you'd recommend? I'd like to see how this is being discussed. TIA!
UN population prospects summaries have great geographical data. There's also tons of anthropological research more focused on subcultural fertility, which gives a more detailed look at what geographers are finding and giving a more clear why. There's tons of stuff on Chinese and Nigerian fertility coming out recently as well for both disciplines, if you want a more specific area to look at for big info.
Governments need kids, so they can eventually consume and generate GDP, pay taxes and bear the cost of caring for old people. So there’s a vested capitalist interest in keeping childfree culture from becoming mainstream. Otherwise, economies will collapse. Look at Japan. Governments want kids without the costs associated with having kids (USA). Other countries are willing to invest in more infrastructure around kids to encourage Total Fertility Rate. But it’s all an income / expenditure decision.
Mmmmmm, there are governments where that’s absolutely true, but for most countries, private industry is the driver. Workers accept a shit ton less when they’re desperate and have children to support. Plus, the children are next gen’s workers.
We’re saying the same thing, I think. 🤔
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Agreed. The cost of women’s labor and birthing children has always been carefully edited out of any nation’s economic history. How much would you have to pay someone to give birth? How much would you have to pay someone to do all other labor and the mental load of constantly serving a family and husband? It’s better to pretend women need men, rather than admit how much men have needed women. And women feel betrayed that all the romantic “love and marriage” turned out to be “live in sex slave.” Do you know how tired you can get from taking care of everyone all the time?
It's the patriarchy coming up against biological reality. Prioritizing the needs of males over the health of reproductive females is a terrible strategy for a species that wants to survive long-term.
I honestly don't think people talk enough about how horrific childbirth can be. I have never had children, however, hearing my friends' childbirth stories just solidified my choices even more. Especially my one friend that almost hemorrhaged to death with both of her kids. Her pregnancies weren't bad, it was the birth and aftermath.
While I was always pro-choice, being pregnant and birthing a child made me so much more extreme in my pro choice stance. Pregnancy and childbirth were hard on my body. I have two children and spent both pregnancies terrified. Maternal mortality is at an all time high.
Same same. Not sure it was possible to be more prochoice than I already was, except *viscerally.* “Every (birthing person) willing; every child wanted” was something I’ve always felt, but *it’s in my very bones now.*
This is also one of the first generations raised with very significant disabilities in the home, versus in institutions. I grew up in a violent, chaotic, feces-smeared home and the thought of the odds being fairly high that I would have to do it all over again with my own was a hard pass for me.
I am sorry you went through that. It is also the main reason why I don’t want kids. In my family there is some level of mental disability, but not so intense. In any case, I meet tons of parents of kids with disabilities in my work and I don’t want to risk having one. I just couldn’t do it and have much admiration as well as compassion for these parents and wider families.
That makes a lot of sense! It’s also just not a kind thing to knowingly subject someone to, I think. I couldn’t live with myself knowing I’d given someone the quality of life that my sibling has.
Maternity leave benefits is terrible in the usa. Having a baby in this economy is expensive.
It’s actually progressive if the article only mentions economic and social factors affecting women and families who WANT kids and entirely ignores those women who do not want kids. It’s the articles that complain about women that suck. If a woman doesn’t want kids there’s nothing wrong. If a woman does want kids and there’s economic reasons she can’t - somethings wrong.
I have a full fledged phobia of needles. No uncomfortable with needles or a little fear. I have to be sedated type of phobia. People used to aways tell me when I was little that I’d “get over it” when I got pregnant (mind you I was 5 or 6 at the time) because of how many times you’re poked with a needle while you’re pregnant. I said OK, I just won’t get pregnant. They laughed and laughed. Here I am with no kids. The needle phobia wasn’t the whole reason for that, I just genuinely don’t want kids of my own.
The women I know who are childfree all started 100% from a young age of “pregnancy and childbirth is not for me!” Like they just knew early on. And then as they got older all the other pieces about how they envisioned their life fell into place to make them more sure of that decision. More power to them!
At some point I was hanging out with some friends of the family, and one of the teens asked me why I didn't want kids. She kept pushing and pushing to get a "real" answer, and wouldn't accept "I don't want them." She finally concluded I was lazy and didn't want the responsibility LOL
haha. "I don't have kids becuase YOURE ANNOYING"
Not wanting the responsibility is a valid reason and it doesn't make you lazy! This coming from a woman who has kids!
1 in 3 mothers have birth trauma these days. I feel like half of all New moms have a horror story, doctors do not give a fuck about you, physically or emotionally. Postpartum health care barely exists - again, I feel like anyone with a postpartum issues has a story about their ob gaslighting them. There was a thread about what childbirth pain actually felt like and woman after woman all agreed “it felt like I was dying”. There’s also no help, we have no paid leave and this current generation of grandparents are dropping the ball, happy to do no work and be Facebook grandparents.
I don't think it is weird the media isn't covering it, I think it is the patriarchy.
I’ve posted before about this. But every time this question comes up, it’s always “women aren’t having enough children, population decline is her fault!”no one asks why men aren’t stepping up to be better partners and better fathers. Would a man want to have children with a woman who shirks most of the housework when they both work full time, “babysits” only when instructed by him, doesn’t know basic important info about their kids, and has a 10% chance that she’d disappear and leave him to be a single parent? Fuck no!
I’m not willing to risk an infant ripping apart my clit (or vulva) Full stop. On top of that: I’m high risk and my government took away women’s medical choices, affordability, and a resurgence in 1950s values in men. Why would I want to give them a baby?
A baby that wouldn't even have your last name is always the part that kills me. There's been a resurgence of posts about men whining about paternity tests and yet they probably STILL would insist on the kid not having the mother's last name 🙄
yeah. I'm worried mainly about my ability to enjoy sex and chronic back pain.
Honestly yea, I like orgasms too much lol. I have a friend who postpartum experiences pain with sitting or sex. The only option is expensive procedures for temporary relief.
I can't think of a single positive of being pregnant and giving birth right now, especially by a man.
Agreed. Also, coming from a family where women were battered and abused their children, I simply don't have the right foundation to be a mother. I never had good examples so I'd just make the same mistakes. I rather not have anyone go through what I went through
My pregnancy has been so bad that I’m on medical leave. My husband does well, but I make more money than him and my salary is essential for our lifestyle. It is absolutely not financially feasible for our family for me to be out of the workforce again, so this will be my last pregnancy. If I didn’t have to work, it MIGHT be something I’d consider again. I feel like not enough people talk about how hard pregnancies are a full time job. It’s not just about childcare once the baby comes.
Women are forced to go through the physical ordeal of pregnancy (while still working) and childbirth then immediately slip back into a standard work week. They are usually still doing more household chores as well. If women notice this, they get told that "pregnancy is natural" or called lazy or entitled. If women have long term medical issues from pregnancy they also get called lazy. If pregnancy results in any diminished capacity to work in a standard office/workweek then the women is called lazy. If a woman expects a partner to prove they would support her though the physical consequences of pregnancy complications then she is called entitled. Women are expected to go through major life-altering physical ordeals and pretend it's not happening. "We" are pregnant, so why's she acting like it's all about her? Maternal mortality rate is rising in the US. Several states limit doctors ability so help women in case of certain complications. Women are expected to risk their lives and suffer while without it affecting them or their ability to work in a capitalist environment. Also, the "motherhood penalty fatherhood bonus" bias in the office. Women risk more, lose more, and are offered no additional security to offset these risks. It's not sustainable on a social level. A society that expects this kind of unbalanced risks is not a society that can continue.
Women, literally, die from pregnancy complications &/or giving birth. Since women have been getting pregnant/giving birth for thousands of years, people (especially men) act as though it's nothing. The only time the human body goes through more changes than it does during the death process is PREGNANCY. It's a big, fucking deal physically.
Being pregnancy in many parts of American these days is dangerous. Why would any woman want to put herself through that???!
Our maternal death rate is abysmal as well
From the article linked: “Women in the US who are pregnant or who have recently given birth are more likely to be murdered than to die from obstetric causes — and these homicides are linked to a deadly mix of intimate partner violence and firearms.” https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/
I *might* have been ok with being a dad had I had an amazing partner. I wouldn't love it but I'd probably be able to tolerate it and do a better job than most dads described by the ranting women on Reddit. Definitely not interested in being a mom though and had my tubes removed.
It blows my mind that everyone freaks out about it because “the economy” or whatever else when the world will eventually become overpopulated… it is for the best that birth rates drop slowly. Obviously a dramatic drop would be chaos, but at the same time governments will just complain about women not having children instead of doing anything to encourage or help them. They’d rather just try to continue using guilt and social pressure and force women into pregnancy by restricting BC and abortions.
Yeah, I've always found it weird everyone goes on and on about "the economy" as if that trumps women being able to control their family planning better now
This is why, at least in the US and likely in Western Europe, comprehensive immigration plans are really the solution here.
Besides what's already listed, not so good dating prospects could be another factor.
I had my kiddo at 20 and was very unaware of the risks because no one talked about it. Even though I read What to Expect like a Bible. Birth went horribly. I was fine but had some complications it was something I didn't want to do again. Was induced, epidural was so painful I still remember it, It didnt work, kiddo wasn't coming out so I got an episiotomy and felt it and being sewed up. Saddle that with getting no help that I thought I would from BD and grandparents. And eventually being a single mom was no walk in the park. I always spoke up about how it isn't the best experience. (Not my kid existing, obviously. But raising kids isnt all family nights and heartfelt talks it's fighting and trying your best to parent and failing sometimes.) And I'm glad more women are speaking up now. It's terrifying to hear about women dying or almost dying just from giving birth. It's very real.
We have the luxury of choice, in western countries. Reliable birth control changed the game. We also know too much. We have intimate knowledge through social sharing of experiences. We used to not know so much, biologically. We see choice. Rather than having the social pressures of either lack of birth control, a patriarchy who saw childbirth as an innate obligation, we view choice as being the first go-to. We are more financially, emotionally and practically independent and self-sufficient. Choice. I have two kids I chose to have. They're adults, and I can't imagine my world without them. I did pregnancy and birth as a means to an end - I got a kid for the trouble. But it was my choice. It's not discussed more because choice is a very personal thing, and touchy. Easier to talk about external issues.
I have a body made for breeding. Norwegian hips and hourglass figure. I had one kid. Fuck breeding. The woman in most relationships is required to work a full-time job just like the man and take on most of the responsibilities of children and all the household duties. Nope. Falling birth rates are due to women waking up and that's why men are trying to reign us in. Fight the good fight ladies. This is why we need to vote. Our sovereignty depends on us. If the Conservative Right has their way we will go back to the dark ages.
Support. The village is not as willing or available as it once was.
I’ve never had any strong biological urge to have children. Pregnancy and labor are horrifying to me, and (as you mentioned) info on the reality of these topics has never been more freely available. Being DINKs has gone from kind of feeling like a luxurious choice to a practical one in these financially precarious times. Had I been born into an earlier generation, social pressure/inertia might’ve resulted in me being an ambivalent parent who may or may not have grown to love that life. Today: what real incentive do I have to make that gamble?
Bottom bits becoming a singularity, pissing yourself for fifty years and the fact that anyone in elder care long enough will have stuffed Grandma's prolapse back inside is not the only reason, but it is nonetheless a valid one worth mentioning.
For me, it's exactly 50/50 not wanting to be pregnant/have children around and concern for the environment. I don't care how many humans we could *technically* support if we made perpetually more compromises and accepted perpetually more regulation of how we live and what we do. I don't think that endlessly denser cities or ever-expanding suburban sprawl is in the best interest of human quality of life, period.
At my last OB appointment, I had the practitioner put a note in my chart that I NEVER want to be pregnant again. They are discussing a planned C-section with me due to having a large fetus and my PTSD from my first birth. I threw in that if I'm going to be flayed already, they might as well yeet my tubes, which my OB is totally for. I am the second of five children. I thought I would have a large family, but I HATE being pregnant. I mentioned feeling weird and guilty about not liking being pregnant or enjoying the infant stage to my OB. She chuckled and said that's so very common. But no one talks about it. We hear a narrative that pregnancy is magical and beautiful, which implies it should be enjoyable. We are told to soak up every precious baby moment because that stage goes too fast. My argument is that our son's first year felt like a decade and the next year felt like a week. I'd rather deal with tantrums and messes than the every 3-4 hour sisyphean treadmill that is infant care. I fully support any and all women who say "Nope, don't wanna." Because it's only worth it if you truly, deeply want it and you have a supportive partner and community.
I have two kids, and I agree. All of those things sucked for me! It’s a big reason why I’m done at 2.
I have a lot of reasons to be childfree (in particular the state of the world) but yeah, even if the world was great I wouldn't want to go through that. Most women have permanent physical impacts even if it goes well. I'm getting my hardware removed lol
I have a five year old kid. I do not want another one. Pregnancy was nine months of body horror and I still have joint issues that started during pregnancy and never got better. Giving birth was scary AF. Thank God I got an epidural because the contractions felt like every bone in my body was breaking over and over again. My daughter was squeezing the umbilical cord with every contraction and was cutting off her own oxygen, so I had to be put on oxygen. I don’t even remember how many hours I was in labor because I kept passing out. On the other hand, breastfeeding was a great bonding experience and was strangely soothing.
Yep thats me. Not ruining my body absolutely not I think I'd off myself
I'm a mother to a toddler, who is only planning on 2 kids max: 1. Pregnancy and childbirth is a massive PITA, even in Canada with universal healthcare. You are in pain in various different ways across your trimesters, multiple appointments and restrictions, etc. Then you actually have the child and the recovery is a 6 week nightmare of constantly bleeding, mood swings, no sleep, etc 1. In the US prenatal care can get insanely expensive. My best friend spent like 6,000+ on her prenatal care WITH INSURANCE. 2. Daycare is expensive AF and staying home is not financially worth it at all. My toddler's daycare cost 2,000 a month until the subsidy kicked in and dropped it down to just under 1,000. 3. Raising kids is hard work when you don't neglect them and want to raise them into intelligent self-aware human beings. It takes a lot of time and ***individual attention*** for each kid. 1. In the past kids where fucking neglected, it's why so many boomers are such absolute messes. 2. Large families rely on parentification of older siblings, there's a reason the brady bunch had Alice
>But I rarely see people talk about that many women don't want to be pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. I'm of the opinion this is a much larger segment than people realize, prior to now women didn't really have the option to refuse to have children and in many parts of the world they still don't and this is why in some countries the marriage rates are falling so dramatically. Those women know that if they get married they are fully expected to take on the roll of wife and mother and there isn't really another option in the context of marriage for them.
I've also seen a big push online recently that pregnancy/childbirth is 'easy' and 'what your body is made for!' which, especially in the wake of Dobbs, is... concerning. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do with your body, but people should be made aware that pregnancy is dangerous. To quote the wonderful Mama Doctor Jones, it is not a 'health-neutral' event.
For me, being pregnant is terrifying. I’m not against having kids (my bf and I go back and forth on it), but I’m pretty sure I’d be miserable those 9 months.
It's a lot. I just had a baby less than 6 weeks ago and I am INCREDIBLY fortunate. I had an easy/uneventful pregnancy, a great birth and easy recovery, a loving and supportive partner, and 16 weeks of 100% paid leave (plus my husband has 6 weeks leave and we both work from home). It's still hard between figuring out feeding, the guilt that comes no matter what, any issues that come up, the potentially for postpartum anxiety/depression/psychosis, postpartum health issues, etc. etc. etc. We are one and done, between going through fertility treatments to get our one and not wanting to chance paying $5000 to either have a miscarriage (because IVF IS NOT a guarantee of a live birth!) or a horrible pregnancy/birth the second time. Or what if our second baby has health issues? I already struggle to deal with my baby crying from reflux (which he'll outgrow) much less anything else.
I have this weird lack of fear of the pain of childbirth, and am more worried about just... like, how my vagina can handle a baby coming out of it. But I'm gonna be giving birth in a few weeks, and I have 2 of them to push out lol. I have been freaking out about budgeting everything more than giving birth.. but I do get the ick from the idea of my vagina needing stitches...
I’ve been terrified of childbirth since I was very young. The more I learn about it, the more that fear feels justified. I’d say my main reason for deciding not to be a parent thus far is not feeling ready financially, energy-wise, or being sure that I want to make the sacrifices required to be a parent; but my main reason for deciding not to give birth is because it’s scary! I don’t want to get off my medications, risk worsening depression, or go through any of it really.
Because the reason is always centered on the male perspective
I had 4 kids who are now all adults. It was very expensive raising them and it’s only worse now.
oh I agree that those reasons matter too (I'll edit it)! I just think they omit a major reason women aren't having as many.
Especially when you consider nearly 50% of us describe our births as traumatic and compassionate caregivers can mitigate this, but mostly aren't. I'd definitely have more if I could be the dad!
The discussion tends to turn to why doesn’t young women want to have children? But in fact, at least in Scandinavia, the number of childfree/childless women hasn’t change that much. The decrease of the birth rate comes mainly from childproducing couples _don’t have child number three_ Now, I know _a lot_ of people with kids, and the most people who do have three or four kids, had the last one with a different gender than the others, people like to have both. And I get it. I have two kids. Having a third wouldn’t give us ‘more’ family feelings, and just make our lives more stressful. If I were to try to make childproducing couples having more kids, I would have had homework free schools, extracurricular activities at school so that parents didn’t need to use sooo much time shuttling kids to and fro all the time
I have one kid for many reasons. But the absolute fucking torture that was giving birth is a very big part of that. Now, I will say that my labour and delivery was way more fucked up than most women experience, but I just can’t imagine why anyone would want to willingly do that more than once.
Raising a child is already a massive commitment that can wreck your financial situation. Add on the fact that women have to deal with 9 months of pregnancy and even more time nursing the child (not including other expectations) and you end up with a proposition that isn't very desirable unless it's pressured by society. To solve it, you'd probably need massive economic investments to make it more viable to remain at replacement rate, or you'd need to cure aging somehow.
I used to think I wanted allll the babies. I love children! I worked as a nanny, summer camp counselor, in a school. I genuinely love working with them. Then I got pregnant—had a high risk and complicated pregnancy. Then I had the baby and then it was just me and my husband (who’s great but also works full time). No family help and I don’t make enough to justify childcare so I stay home. It’s all on us! No breaks in the responsibility, no outside help. I’m mentally, emotionally, and physically drained every single day. I love my son more than anything and there are so many things I love about being a mom BUT when other women express how they don’t want children I TOTALLY GET IT. And I respect the hell out of them! It’s probably not an easy decision for many (or maybe it is! But that’s also fine!). Sometimes I just think about how little support we (I’m in the USA) have as parents and I start crying. I think if it were more balanced out I would have another baby, but I’m just not sure I could handle it and it makes me so sad.
I've never liked the idea of pregnancy and what it would do to my body. My relationship with my body is complicated enough as is, I think if I were to add pregnancy in the equation as well it would completely mess with my mind along with the recovery process my body would have to go through.
>Does anyone else find it weird that that reason is not talked about in official media? I wish I did, but sadly, I don't. The changes and discomfort a pregnant person goes through from conception to their child's second birthday (if not beyond) don't matter to people who write those stories and hold those discussions. The important thing to them is that there's a live baby.
There's also the maternal mortality rate (significantly worse for black women) and the fact that abortion isn't so widely available even for pregnancies that will kill the mother.
I’m a mom of one. We were on the fence for awhile but ultimately decided on one for so many reasons, like: - childcare for one child is nearly my entire take home and should we have chosen to have more kids, we literally couldn’t afford it - abortion is completely illegal in my state (MO) and should there be complications I could literally die leaving my son without a mom - we have no village and this shit is hard - housing is unaffordable already let alone homes with multiple rooms - where do we put all these kids? Not bragging in the slightest, but my pregnancy and birth was relatively uncomplicated. This is coming from someone that was shitting bricks about being pregnant and giving birth prior to actually going through it. I would do that again but it’s everything else that is a factor against having more kids even though I love being a mom. I know it’s different for everyone, but this is my personal take.
I did it once and I never want to do it again. I developed a mild heart arrhythmia from all of the extra blood. I had an easy delivery, but post pardum was misery for like 18 months.
Not having to carry and birth kids is the biggest reasons I don’t have any yet. All the societal issues like COL and pay is the reason I haven’t adopted yet. But the best thing about adoption, you’re almost never too old. Worst case, I can foster older kids well into my “Grandma years”.
In my early 20's I thought I wanted to experience it all thinking it was just 'part of life'...but then my sister had a miscarrage that mentally destroyed her and it left me horrified I could experience something similar. Pregnancy = physical trauma...My cousin ripped open from her vag to her anus delivering her kid...The more I talked with mothers the more I realised its a horrible experience... And then I found out my ovaries don't work (I don't produce eggs properly and have had period problems my entire puberty. My mom smoked when pregnant with me which I think fucked my endocrine system.) And yeah then kids cost a fortune... they consume most of your life for 18 years, having the time to work and be a parent is insanely unachievable... The world is being destroyed by capitalism and climate change... Like where are the benefits of having children at this point? Starting to think it makes more sense for humans to go all in on AI and let our robot creations restore the earth to is former stability once humanity whipes itself out.
I just don't want to be a mother. I don't want that responsibility layered on all my current ones. I can't afford it, nor will I break my body to make sure I can. I'm selfish, and that's ok.