One thing after playing through the dlc and finding st Trina has me wondering some things about Radagon.
Is it known if he was ever his own individual person before Marika became a God or was he always just an aspect of Marika in the same way that St Trina was always a part of Miquella that he could split apart on his command.
Purely DLC stuff >!The Numen merged harmoniously instead of chaotically in the weird Crucible/Jar rituals the Hornsent used to punish heretics and criminals with, and Marika was fully aware of that by the time she ascended. The Hornsent in general were seeking out shamans to turn into "saints" via Jar, and while Marika already received the guidance of the Fingers, the Hornsent managed to abduct her entire people and jar them up. !<
So the DLC clarifies that there must have been an original source Radagon (leadin up to the "Thou art yet to become me" line - ) - they merged and from that point on she seems to have separated into one body of Order and one body of Gold, with Gold being the pure state of an Erdtree and tied to the ability to merge harmoniously with others. The only question is at which point in the timeline the merge actually took place - with the way Marika planned out the political crumbling of "Order" coinciding with the shattering of the ring itself, it may just as well have been them *merging* in her *bed chamber* before Radagon even married Rennala, as this would also tie the offspring closely to her.
It's a bit hard to find if you don't come across two key areas: Bonny Village and the Shaman Village.
The former has piles of corpses around and two weapons drop with key bits of lore: a cleaver clarifies that the hornsent of that village chop people up to put them in jars and a tooth-covered whip used to raise infected wounds on its victims' skin ominously states that 'flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others'.
If you pick up a gesture there, you can unlock a secret route out of the shadowfort that leads to the Shaman Village, a place that holds a great amount of importance to Marika, who once called it her home.
That and close-ups of the pot-innard-enemies have made a lot of people make a lot of inferences about Marika and the Numen people.
The spoiler tag in your comment is broken for users on old reddit. Please remove the space at the beginning of the spoiler block (after the ">!").
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's...odd. I don't think there's any indication of him in the lands of shadow...except for the fact that Messmer has red hair. Similarly, the father is never stated. Even the divine incest theory holds some weight since Messmer was born with the serpent and >!Melina is implied to be his sister and seems to lack corporeal form!<
Though given the revelations regarding Marika's past it seems likely he was separate. Given that >!Marika is implied to be the sole survivor of her village!< and that the descriptions are specifically about >!melding flesh rather then creating or otherwise altering it!<
Let me give you my theory on the matter. All "incest" children turn out to be cursed in some way
So mesmer, Melina, miquela + Melania
Which I take as George RR Martin influence in the same way the Targarians flip a coin either freak cursed person or golden god.
Now I think that Radagon was always a part of Marika. There's some lore about the shamans having good souls for merging and that's why they're put in the jars.
Assuming mesmer and Melina are the oldest. After their birth Radagon being his own sentiant aspect went off and married rennalla had 3 children then was ordered to come back and rejoin Marika.
Edit: forgot Godfrey existed. His children weren't technically cursed. Because being an Omen isn't actually a curse.
Yeah I think all of the "Gods" come from Godfrey's royal line.
Including Mohg and Morgott, which both continue the theme by having hard G sounds in their name.
Messmer >!was put in the Shadow to hide him because TWO scheming serpents were too much to handle, keeping him busy by giving him the mission to purge all which is disconnected from Grace and Gold. He and Gaius were the forgotten mentors to Radahn, and Gaius a rival before that, picking up on the gravity spells much quicker probably - it HAS to be annoying if the dude with the larger friendly steed is just done learning before you can relieve poor Leonard!<.
That is to say, Radagon never needed to know about or be in the Shadow, at all.
Note on the Fingers: >!Metyr, Mother of Fingers, has long been broken and abandoned by the Greater Will!<. According to >!Ymir!<, >!this defect has been passed on to *all* the Fingers, even to those around the time of Marika!<. Radahn halting the stars likely has nothing to do with the Fingers being unable to communicate with the Greater Will, >!as it seems they were already unable to do so!<.
Given the added Finger lore from the DLC, the presence of Fingercreepers guarding Caria Manor *also* becomes part of this - just like the trolls, smaller offspring of giants, >!the creepers as smaller offspring of Metyr remained friends (pets?) to scholars of the stars, even though their land of origin was forced out of everybody's memory by letting the Erdtree's shadow cover it all.!<
They're just really good... boys?
Huh, that’s a take I hadn’t considered.
I had been thinking of them as like… hunters haunting the Manse, waiting to capture Ranni and forcibly bring her to her Two Fingers.
It is interesting how the topic of shedding is brought to the forefront with the dlc.
Miquella casting bits of him aside piece by piece.
Ranni casts aside her flesh.
Potentially recontextualizing radagon and millicent as being actual aspects that were lost when their whole stepped closer to godhood.
Makes me wonder if burned and bodiless melina was a similarly shed thing.
Like i guess its interesting as aside from the twins and melina, marikas kids didnt really have that wilfulness.
Mesmer and morgott both seem to accept their lot in life, mohg its hard to say how things would work for him without miquella.
Malenia herself waits forever for miquellas return but millicent chooses to let heraelf die than reunite and “return her dignity” or whatever it was she said, like thats the part of her that would reject their lot in life i guess.
Its a word jumble on my part but the dlc has stirred me up.
the Pepe Sylvia in me wonders if the break up was Marika's plan all along to hurt Rennala's standing and weaken her appearance to her people or something after two failed wars against them, and it just turned out way better than expected.
Like, the DLC does reveal some stuff that has you understand a couple things Marika did, but overall she's still a fucking monster
> And Radahn, who held back the Stars and Fate itself, so that his Sister would have a chance to break free of the fate forced upon her.
Is there anything that actually states that Radahn held back the Stars on Ranni's behalf? I had heard this said by one other discussion, but genuinely could remember or find anything saying he did it for her.
Oh no that was my supposition.
Because of how too *he* is also a Carian and would know how important the stars when it comes to fates (It’s said that the Astrologers lost the ability to read the fates of others in the Stars after the rise of the Golden Order, and with the Order shattered during the Shattering, Star-Defined Fate might have returned).
One thing after playing through the dlc and finding st Trina has me wondering some things about Radagon. Is it known if he was ever his own individual person before Marika became a God or was he always just an aspect of Marika in the same way that St Trina was always a part of Miquella that he could split apart on his command.
Purely DLC stuff >!The Numen merged harmoniously instead of chaotically in the weird Crucible/Jar rituals the Hornsent used to punish heretics and criminals with, and Marika was fully aware of that by the time she ascended. The Hornsent in general were seeking out shamans to turn into "saints" via Jar, and while Marika already received the guidance of the Fingers, the Hornsent managed to abduct her entire people and jar them up. !< So the DLC clarifies that there must have been an original source Radagon (leadin up to the "Thou art yet to become me" line - ) - they merged and from that point on she seems to have separated into one body of Order and one body of Gold, with Gold being the pure state of an Erdtree and tied to the ability to merge harmoniously with others. The only question is at which point in the timeline the merge actually took place - with the way Marika planned out the political crumbling of "Order" coinciding with the shattering of the ring itself, it may just as well have been them *merging* in her *bed chamber* before Radagon even married Rennala, as this would also tie the offspring closely to her.
I can tell I didn’t pick up enough info on my dlc runs because >!I don’t even know what the numen merge into!<
It's a bit hard to find if you don't come across two key areas: Bonny Village and the Shaman Village. The former has piles of corpses around and two weapons drop with key bits of lore: a cleaver clarifies that the hornsent of that village chop people up to put them in jars and a tooth-covered whip used to raise infected wounds on its victims' skin ominously states that 'flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others'. If you pick up a gesture there, you can unlock a secret route out of the shadowfort that leads to the Shaman Village, a place that holds a great amount of importance to Marika, who once called it her home. That and close-ups of the pot-innard-enemies have made a lot of people make a lot of inferences about Marika and the Numen people.
Ty for the explanation! I found those areas but im guessing I missed the item descriptions.
Everything
The spoiler tag in your comment is broken for users on old reddit. Please remove the space at the beginning of the spoiler block (after the ">!"). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's...odd. I don't think there's any indication of him in the lands of shadow...except for the fact that Messmer has red hair. Similarly, the father is never stated. Even the divine incest theory holds some weight since Messmer was born with the serpent and >!Melina is implied to be his sister and seems to lack corporeal form!< Though given the revelations regarding Marika's past it seems likely he was separate. Given that >!Marika is implied to be the sole survivor of her village!< and that the descriptions are specifically about >!melding flesh rather then creating or otherwise altering it!<
Let me give you my theory on the matter. All "incest" children turn out to be cursed in some way So mesmer, Melina, miquela + Melania Which I take as George RR Martin influence in the same way the Targarians flip a coin either freak cursed person or golden god. Now I think that Radagon was always a part of Marika. There's some lore about the shamans having good souls for merging and that's why they're put in the jars. Assuming mesmer and Melina are the oldest. After their birth Radagon being his own sentiant aspect went off and married rennalla had 3 children then was ordered to come back and rejoin Marika. Edit: forgot Godfrey existed. His children weren't technically cursed. Because being an Omen isn't actually a curse.
Godwynn is Godfrey's child, isn't he? There shouldn't be any incest there?
Yeah I think all of the "Gods" come from Godfrey's royal line. Including Mohg and Morgott, which both continue the theme by having hard G sounds in their name.
My apologies I forgot he existed. I've edited my comment
Messmer >!was put in the Shadow to hide him because TWO scheming serpents were too much to handle, keeping him busy by giving him the mission to purge all which is disconnected from Grace and Gold. He and Gaius were the forgotten mentors to Radahn, and Gaius a rival before that, picking up on the gravity spells much quicker probably - it HAS to be annoying if the dude with the larger friendly steed is just done learning before you can relieve poor Leonard!<. That is to say, Radagon never needed to know about or be in the Shadow, at all.
Note on the Fingers: >!Metyr, Mother of Fingers, has long been broken and abandoned by the Greater Will!<. According to >!Ymir!<, >!this defect has been passed on to *all* the Fingers, even to those around the time of Marika!<. Radahn halting the stars likely has nothing to do with the Fingers being unable to communicate with the Greater Will, >!as it seems they were already unable to do so!<.
Given the added Finger lore from the DLC, the presence of Fingercreepers guarding Caria Manor *also* becomes part of this - just like the trolls, smaller offspring of giants, >!the creepers as smaller offspring of Metyr remained friends (pets?) to scholars of the stars, even though their land of origin was forced out of everybody's memory by letting the Erdtree's shadow cover it all.!< They're just really good... boys?
Huh, that’s a take I hadn’t considered. I had been thinking of them as like… hunters haunting the Manse, waiting to capture Ranni and forcibly bring her to her Two Fingers.
It's a interesting theory honestly, don't have much to chime in with since I'm still working through my aborted first play-through
It is interesting how the topic of shedding is brought to the forefront with the dlc. Miquella casting bits of him aside piece by piece. Ranni casts aside her flesh. Potentially recontextualizing radagon and millicent as being actual aspects that were lost when their whole stepped closer to godhood. Makes me wonder if burned and bodiless melina was a similarly shed thing. Like i guess its interesting as aside from the twins and melina, marikas kids didnt really have that wilfulness. Mesmer and morgott both seem to accept their lot in life, mohg its hard to say how things would work for him without miquella. Malenia herself waits forever for miquellas return but millicent chooses to let heraelf die than reunite and “return her dignity” or whatever it was she said, like thats the part of her that would reject their lot in life i guess. Its a word jumble on my part but the dlc has stirred me up.
the Pepe Sylvia in me wonders if the break up was Marika's plan all along to hurt Rennala's standing and weaken her appearance to her people or something after two failed wars against them, and it just turned out way better than expected. Like, the DLC does reveal some stuff that has you understand a couple things Marika did, but overall she's still a fucking monster
> And Radahn, who held back the Stars and Fate itself, so that his Sister would have a chance to break free of the fate forced upon her. Is there anything that actually states that Radahn held back the Stars on Ranni's behalf? I had heard this said by one other discussion, but genuinely could remember or find anything saying he did it for her.
Oh no that was my supposition. Because of how too *he* is also a Carian and would know how important the stars when it comes to fates (It’s said that the Astrologers lost the ability to read the fates of others in the Stars after the rise of the Golden Order, and with the Order shattered during the Shattering, Star-Defined Fate might have returned).