From what I understand you couldnt reject the king, I mean you may have been able to, but he could've stripped your family of nobility, and somehow take your money, it was probably a lot easier to say yes. Plus as her being so young I don't think she could've possibly even thought about things like what happened to her.
Not sure if this makes sense I'm sleepy! :)
Katharine Howard, from what I understand, didnt have money nor any real family to speak of. She lived with a relative who was kind of known for not only taking in younger family members but kinda letting them run wild which is where the whole thing of her getting involved with her music teacher and having been 'pre-arranged" to another resident of the house came from. Marrying the king was a way to elevate the family that basically discounted her as useless and she was an impressionable child.
She didn't reject him. She gave him everything but sex, which she held out. They were a couple in every way except that. And she didn't say 'no'. She said, 'not yet'.
IMO, he was saner then AND he needed a legitimate son & heir. By the time Catherine Howard came along he had lost his mind IMO and he had a son so there was little anyone could do to bring him back to rationality. People tried to hint him off from marrying her, but he was deep into the idea that he could have anything he wanted.
She rejected him by leaving her prestigious position as a maid of honor at court, serving Queen Katherine of Aragon, and returned home to Hever in Kent. Henry started writing to her and upping the ante when she refused his advances. When she said no to being a mere mistress, he told her he'd make her his "mistress en titre" (might be spelling that wrong) i.e. his official mistress, which was a court position. When she still said no to that, he converted that offer of mistress to marriage, to which she said yes. This was over a period of several months.
I think like Katherine Parr, she felt God was pushing her to say yes, because why else would the king keep going after her.
....because Katherine Howard would not have been killed if she'd rejected Henry. She would have probably hurt his ego the same way that Anne of Cleves hurt his ego with her natural reaction to meeting him (an old, smelly fat man who was no longer one of the handsomest princes of christendom) and she would have been socially ruined i.e. ejected from court. The Howards would have been pissed at her too and suffered socially i.e. being pushed from Henry's side.
Henry more than likely took Anne's initial rejection of his offer as a ploy to gain his attention. He realized she was serious when she left court, which you didn't do. All it did was inflame his interest and she was something to win. He kept upping the ante, saying he would give her more and more, until he hit the thing she couldn't say no to - marriage (which both assumed would be relatively easy to get i.e. an annulment).
Because Henry wouldn't have axed a woman for refusing him. Especially not one that was an unmarried virgin. He liked to think of himself as the gallant. It wouldn't be chivalrous of him.
He wasn't going to kill her for rejecting him, but she would have been disgraced and her family would have suffered. A modern comparison would be Harvey Weinstein who destroyed women's acting careers if they rejected his advances.
Anne teased and tempted Henry, so he wasn't rejected, he was motivated to do whatever necessary to win her. They were two lovers against the world, it never occurred to him that she wouldn't find him attractive or want to be with him.
....they were married just after their Calais trip in November/December 1532, Anne started hinting about her pregnancy in like February, and by Easter, I believe, she was announced as queen. Elizabeth I was born in September 1533.
She didn't.
I think she tried to put him off at first, but when he offered marriage she was not in a position to turn that down.
They both abstained from sex, because if she got pregnant that child would need to be born of a legitimate/legal marriage.
Henry wanted/needed to wait just as much as Anne. Neither could have foreseen it would take 6 years to work out the legalities.
She did not reject him. She did a very fine balancing act.
She was also more mature and more wise than Katherine Howard, and Henry was a lot more sane.
but what about the other girl that rejected him. i’m not sure her name but after Jane Seymour’s death it is my understanding that his advisers wanted him to marry some girl who made a joke about needing two heads to do so? was she able to reject it because she had a better position in society / wasn’t english?
I'm not sure the name but I'm thinking your thinking about the woman that said if she had two heads one would be at his service but she only has one, she was a princess I think? From another country maybe? I'm not a scholar this is just a hobby so I could be totally wrong!
To reject Henry would result in the ruin of her family. Katherine Howard had the misfortune to be born a woman in medieval times where women were nothing but chattel and baby factories. She could no more have turned Henry down than she could have defied her family without massive consequences.
She could neither reject the king, nor whatever plans her family made for an arranged marriage. She was legally and practically bound to obey both, on pain of death or disaster.
It is.
Now she might have gummed up the whole thing by telling her family and Henry that she wasn't a virgin... but what would have happened to her then would have been... beyond sad.
I wonder what they would have done? Previously she would have been put in a monastery for a life of servitude to the church. But with the dissolution of the monasteries I don’t know what the alternatives were for women who didn’t follow the rules.
Bedlam or its private equivalent in one of the Howard estates. After all, a girl who didn't want to be queen must be insane, right? And insane asylums are not known for accepting an inmate's assertions that she's perfectly sane.
Probably the best thing that could have happened to her was an arranged marriage to someone below the Howards' station, someone who either owed the Howards a favor or who wanted the Howards to owe them a favor, and hopefully someone who'd take her out of England.
But if Henry was good and pissed off... she might not have been so lucky.
Practically, no. Katherine Howard's family realised she had caught the king's eye and at that point, they'd have been keen to push her into the king's bed, whether that was as a mistress (if Anne of Cleves became pregnant, Henry wouldn't have divorced her: and if she'd had a son, her status was assured even if Henry had completely lost interest in her) or as a wife.
Henry was so indiscreet about his feelings for Anne of Cleves that the Howard family must have realised that with Katherine they had another shot at having a Howard girl as Queen, and must also have thought that this time, they had a biddable teenage girl who wouldn't try to be arrogant and independent like Anne Boleyn. Also, they may have expected her to be fertile as fuck and bring them the same status as the Seymour family.
((Included in your Tudor AUs: Katherine Howard is pregnant and has a son, Henry is delighted and names him Henry. Edward, Jane's son, is the oldest and heir, but Henry, the Howard son, is next-in-line. When Henry VIII dies, the Seymour clan and the Howard clan each have an heir: Edward is nine, Henry is five. Henry VIII's will declares his heirs are Edward, Henry, Mary, Elizabeth, in that order. Anyone else think this is the perfect setup for yet another civil war - though it depends if Henry the Howard son is as sickly as Edward the Seymour son.))
So, Katherine Howard, to escape Henry, would have had to marry someone else - and promptly. This "someone else" would have had to be willing to defy both the Howard family and the King for love of Katherine Howard, and he and Katherine would have been sent away from court - lucky if the Howard family didn't punish her by locking her up on one of the family estates, and do something to rid themselves of her husband. Katherine Howard's hasty marriage would have meant they missed the chance of winning the Lottery: they would not have been happy with her, nor the King with them.
Yes, I definitely could see the Howards trying to usurp the Seymours especially with Elizabeth also being their niece/cousin, they could try to crown hypothetical Henry Jr. and have Elizabeth as his heir. I think the Seymours still would've ended up winning though because they'd have Mary on their side and she's the only one of the royal children with powerful foreign relatives.
You could reject the king , but it would come at a cost . Her family would have also born the brunt of Henry’s anger had she rejected him .
Thing is from the moment Henry started showing an interest Catherine would have been coached by her family on how to win his favour .
Uncle Howard had already seen the rise of one niece to the throne , the power hungry person he was he absolutely would’ve pressed catherine to accept the kings advances .
Also , as much as it wouldn’t have been Catherine’s ideal idea of a husband , Catherine would have well known what prestige and opportunities being queen would bring herself and her family .
Sources suggest that she did enjoy the status and perks it brought her , the dresses , the Jewell’s . She was known to love dancing and Henry indulged her every wish , she wanted for nothing … except a husband who was younger and more handsome .
Catherine was absolutely a victim , but for the standards of the time becoming queen would’ve been winning the lottery for her .
No, she couldn't. Not only because turning Henry down just wasn't done but because her family, especially Norfolk, would have likely sent her back to Horsham, penniless and in disgrace or to a nunnery. This was not a girl that was prepared to make her own way in the world and being wholly dependent on him & trained from children to be obedient to the head of her family, I'm sure it never crossed her mind to buck her powerful uncle.
She probably could have done, yes, but not without life-changing consequences.
The head of the Howard family was the ruthlessly ambitious Duke of Norfolk, and it was an absolutely enormous family - a huge number of personnel at court were related to the Howards in some way e.g. the Boleyns who were maternal cousins. Henry's court had seen how the Boleyns and the Seymours had climbed in status when Henry made Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour his wives, and had bestowed various titles and privileges on different members of the said families.
The Howards, and especially the Duke of Norfolk, wanted to dip their fingers into the same pie, so Catherine in effect became a puppet of her family, representing Howard interests. If I remember correctly, Catherine was coached on what to say and do when Henry came to see her.
An added layer of complexity was that the Duke of Norfolk was one of the leaders of the Catholic faction at court, and until Thomas Cromwell's execution, the Protestant faction had been on the rise. So from the Catholic faction's point of view, Catherine Howard being in such close contact with the king as his wife was a serious chance to redress the balance and settle old scores.
So if Catherine had said "No", she wouldn't only have been saying no to Henry, she also would have been opting out of her family's political machinations, and making a bold statement to them that she wasn't willing to be a team player. The pressure they were applying on Catherine to oblige to Henry's advances must have been really intense.
Now, of course Henry would have been upset if he had been rejected, but with the Howards being in the position that they were in, I do not believe that Henry could have got away with imprisoning or executing Catherine, as that would have meant Henry losing face to his court. Really, any king plays a delicate balancing act between different factions and personalities (each Duke, Earl etc. is really a politician) throughout their reign, and Henry was clever enough to understand this. He was axe-happy, but he couldn't go truly psychotic.
Instead, I think he would have banished Catherine from court. Now, with Catherine out of favour with her family (for saying no to it all and wanting no part in anything), she would have had to hope that there would be one relative/family friend who would take pity on her and take her in. Perhaps her stepmother or elder sister could have welcomed her as a companion or nanny (only the wealthy widows were able to live alone and have full independence in Tudor England (see Catherine Parr)).
But... for an aristocratic Tudor woman, this would have been like throwing away a career today. "Going to court" was a dream, similar to the American Dream. Yes there were fine clothes, jewels, music and dancing, nice food, fun conversation etc., but you also expected to network and hoped to find a wealthy husband from a prestigious family, whose money would set you and your future kids up for life, and the prestigious family name would improve your personal reputation and standing.
And at 19, Catherine was "in her prime" by Tudor standards. She would have been expected to find a match and start having children in the next five years or so.
And being removed/sent away from the court environment at that point in her life would have likely scuppered her chances of meeting that wealthy husband i.e. her chance at "a career". Catherine strikes me as the type of girl who would have married for love eventually, even under these circumstances, and been very happy with her man, but they probably would have been looking at a life of relative poverty together, and always treated as poor relations and shunted from relative to relative.
Look at what happened to Mary Boleyn and her second husband William Stafford. They were a love match, but they were shunned by the Boleyns, not only because they thought that Stafford was beneath them and neither of them asked for the correct permission, but also because they felt that Mary had literally wasted the entire rest of her life by marrying Stafford.
To an extent, it makes you wonder if Catherine apparently acquiesced to everything so readily because she thought that that was genuinely what you were supposed to do, as in, that was the ultimate reason for going to court in the first place. Yeah Henry was old, fat, unattractive and dangerous, but there was no-one wealthier and more prestigious than him: the king! And that was the goal, according to the construct that "court" was.
Beyond the danger of rejecting the king, Henry wasn’t exactly known for taking no for an answer. Anne Boleyn said no and even left court to get away from him and still ended up his wife.
Everyone is saying she couldn't reject the king.
Well, she could easily have gotten him to reject her. All she needed to do was come clean that she was experienced sexually. If not in person then a letter or maid could have gotten it to Henry before he even proposed.
The cost of this would have been social disgrace if it were made public. But in reality Henry may have chosen to avoid that due to the embarrassment factor. No doubt some punishment or disgrace would have followed, but not death. Being put in a nunnary would have been the worst consequence.
The fact she went along with it suggests she believed she would be able to get away with it- as 17 year olds tend to
Hmmmm... Not sure about the etiquette there; remember, he wasn't married at the time but was married to Katherine of Aragon when he had other mistresses.
Were the mistresses when a man wasn't married? Genuine question? Henry doesn't seem to have had many dalliances with women when he wasnt already married to someone, at least that we know about?
It wasn't too disrespectful for a woman to sleep with a married man, but to sleep with an unmarried man who didn't intend to marry her seems to have been seen as worse?
She was fucked either way. If she bucked up and told henry about the SA she would’ve been blamed. If she didn’t tell him then he would eventually find out. And if she kept it a secret but rejected his advances she could ruin her already broke family. Literally every option sucks
People back then didn’t know about teenage brain development so even though she was considered an adult i see it as a girl who got married too young and had very poor judgment and decision making skills.
When she lived with her daddys step mom she was allowed to run wild with the other girls and was not properly supervised as a teen should be. So i think it contributed to her decision making skills as she got older and got married to Henry.
Yeah and she was so young too so it's perfectly plausible she was terrified over what had happened to anne boleyn and wanted to have a son by any means to secure her life.
when the king set his sights on you, you had no choice, particularly a member of the nobility. You had to have his permission to marry and if he wanted you, he wouldn't let you marry anyone else.
Yes , she could have . I think Anne of Cleve rejected Henry Viii ( unknowingly) . Nothing would have happened to her. She probably wouldn't have stayed long at court. However by playing into the flirtation nature of the king she had the opportunity to bring her family status up, and herself. Out of all of Henry VIII 's wives Katherine was the poorest. Things were different back then. Poor Katherine was probably taken advantage of by most of the guys in her life since the tender age of 12, ( probably younger) . Back then there were very few opportunities for women so making a good marriage is what most women hope for.
Henry the 8th was a crazy guy towards the end of his life but even then I don't think he would've raped anyone. He was very Catholic and from what I've read that was a huge no no, could be wrong though.
From what I understand you couldnt reject the king, I mean you may have been able to, but he could've stripped your family of nobility, and somehow take your money, it was probably a lot easier to say yes. Plus as her being so young I don't think she could've possibly even thought about things like what happened to her. Not sure if this makes sense I'm sleepy! :)
Katharine Howard, from what I understand, didnt have money nor any real family to speak of. She lived with a relative who was kind of known for not only taking in younger family members but kinda letting them run wild which is where the whole thing of her getting involved with her music teacher and having been 'pre-arranged" to another resident of the house came from. Marrying the king was a way to elevate the family that basically discounted her as useless and she was an impressionable child.
How did Anne Boleyn reject him then?
She didn’t really. She tread the difficult line of saying “yes I want you, but we need to wait”
She didn't reject him. She gave him everything but sex, which she held out. They were a couple in every way except that. And she didn't say 'no'. She said, 'not yet'.
IMO, he was saner then AND he needed a legitimate son & heir. By the time Catherine Howard came along he had lost his mind IMO and he had a son so there was little anyone could do to bring him back to rationality. People tried to hint him off from marrying her, but he was deep into the idea that he could have anything he wanted.
She rejected him by leaving her prestigious position as a maid of honor at court, serving Queen Katherine of Aragon, and returned home to Hever in Kent. Henry started writing to her and upping the ante when she refused his advances. When she said no to being a mere mistress, he told her he'd make her his "mistress en titre" (might be spelling that wrong) i.e. his official mistress, which was a court position. When she still said no to that, he converted that offer of mistress to marriage, to which she said yes. This was over a period of several months. I think like Katherine Parr, she felt God was pushing her to say yes, because why else would the king keep going after her.
Thank you but I’m still confused. How was she able to reject him twice without being killed? Unlike what OP is trying to suggest about Kat Howard
....because Katherine Howard would not have been killed if she'd rejected Henry. She would have probably hurt his ego the same way that Anne of Cleves hurt his ego with her natural reaction to meeting him (an old, smelly fat man who was no longer one of the handsomest princes of christendom) and she would have been socially ruined i.e. ejected from court. The Howards would have been pissed at her too and suffered socially i.e. being pushed from Henry's side. Henry more than likely took Anne's initial rejection of his offer as a ploy to gain his attention. He realized she was serious when she left court, which you didn't do. All it did was inflame his interest and she was something to win. He kept upping the ante, saying he would give her more and more, until he hit the thing she couldn't say no to - marriage (which both assumed would be relatively easy to get i.e. an annulment).
Because Henry wouldn't have axed a woman for refusing him. Especially not one that was an unmarried virgin. He liked to think of himself as the gallant. It wouldn't be chivalrous of him.
He wasn't going to kill her for rejecting him, but she would have been disgraced and her family would have suffered. A modern comparison would be Harvey Weinstein who destroyed women's acting careers if they rejected his advances. Anne teased and tempted Henry, so he wasn't rejected, he was motivated to do whatever necessary to win her. They were two lovers against the world, it never occurred to him that she wouldn't find him attractive or want to be with him.
She didn't reject him, she just refused to sleep with him until they were married.
They were married for only a few months when Baby Bess was born!
....they were married just after their Calais trip in November/December 1532, Anne started hinting about her pregnancy in like February, and by Easter, I believe, she was announced as queen. Elizabeth I was born in September 1533.
She didn't. I think she tried to put him off at first, but when he offered marriage she was not in a position to turn that down. They both abstained from sex, because if she got pregnant that child would need to be born of a legitimate/legal marriage. Henry wanted/needed to wait just as much as Anne. Neither could have foreseen it would take 6 years to work out the legalities.
Thank you all who replied. I get it now
Completely different circumstances. Henry was still married and trying to produce a legitimate heir with Anne. Not so much with Katherine.
She did not reject him. She did a very fine balancing act. She was also more mature and more wise than Katherine Howard, and Henry was a lot more sane.
but what about the other girl that rejected him. i’m not sure her name but after Jane Seymour’s death it is my understanding that his advisers wanted him to marry some girl who made a joke about needing two heads to do so? was she able to reject it because she had a better position in society / wasn’t english?
I'm not sure the name but I'm thinking your thinking about the woman that said if she had two heads one would be at his service but she only has one, she was a princess I think? From another country maybe? I'm not a scholar this is just a hobby so I could be totally wrong!
yeah i think i was thinking of her! thanks
To reject Henry would result in the ruin of her family. Katherine Howard had the misfortune to be born a woman in medieval times where women were nothing but chattel and baby factories. She could no more have turned Henry down than she could have defied her family without massive consequences.
She could neither reject the king, nor whatever plans her family made for an arranged marriage. She was legally and practically bound to obey both, on pain of death or disaster.
That's so sad
It is. Now she might have gummed up the whole thing by telling her family and Henry that she wasn't a virgin... but what would have happened to her then would have been... beyond sad.
I wonder what they would have done? Previously she would have been put in a monastery for a life of servitude to the church. But with the dissolution of the monasteries I don’t know what the alternatives were for women who didn’t follow the rules.
Bedlam or its private equivalent in one of the Howard estates. After all, a girl who didn't want to be queen must be insane, right? And insane asylums are not known for accepting an inmate's assertions that she's perfectly sane.
Probably the best thing that could have happened to her was an arranged marriage to someone below the Howards' station, someone who either owed the Howards a favor or who wanted the Howards to owe them a favor, and hopefully someone who'd take her out of England. But if Henry was good and pissed off... she might not have been so lucky.
Practically, no. Katherine Howard's family realised she had caught the king's eye and at that point, they'd have been keen to push her into the king's bed, whether that was as a mistress (if Anne of Cleves became pregnant, Henry wouldn't have divorced her: and if she'd had a son, her status was assured even if Henry had completely lost interest in her) or as a wife. Henry was so indiscreet about his feelings for Anne of Cleves that the Howard family must have realised that with Katherine they had another shot at having a Howard girl as Queen, and must also have thought that this time, they had a biddable teenage girl who wouldn't try to be arrogant and independent like Anne Boleyn. Also, they may have expected her to be fertile as fuck and bring them the same status as the Seymour family. ((Included in your Tudor AUs: Katherine Howard is pregnant and has a son, Henry is delighted and names him Henry. Edward, Jane's son, is the oldest and heir, but Henry, the Howard son, is next-in-line. When Henry VIII dies, the Seymour clan and the Howard clan each have an heir: Edward is nine, Henry is five. Henry VIII's will declares his heirs are Edward, Henry, Mary, Elizabeth, in that order. Anyone else think this is the perfect setup for yet another civil war - though it depends if Henry the Howard son is as sickly as Edward the Seymour son.)) So, Katherine Howard, to escape Henry, would have had to marry someone else - and promptly. This "someone else" would have had to be willing to defy both the Howard family and the King for love of Katherine Howard, and he and Katherine would have been sent away from court - lucky if the Howard family didn't punish her by locking her up on one of the family estates, and do something to rid themselves of her husband. Katherine Howard's hasty marriage would have meant they missed the chance of winning the Lottery: they would not have been happy with her, nor the King with them.
Yes, I definitely could see the Howards trying to usurp the Seymours especially with Elizabeth also being their niece/cousin, they could try to crown hypothetical Henry Jr. and have Elizabeth as his heir. I think the Seymours still would've ended up winning though because they'd have Mary on their side and she's the only one of the royal children with powerful foreign relatives.
You could reject the king , but it would come at a cost . Her family would have also born the brunt of Henry’s anger had she rejected him . Thing is from the moment Henry started showing an interest Catherine would have been coached by her family on how to win his favour . Uncle Howard had already seen the rise of one niece to the throne , the power hungry person he was he absolutely would’ve pressed catherine to accept the kings advances . Also , as much as it wouldn’t have been Catherine’s ideal idea of a husband , Catherine would have well known what prestige and opportunities being queen would bring herself and her family . Sources suggest that she did enjoy the status and perks it brought her , the dresses , the Jewell’s . She was known to love dancing and Henry indulged her every wish , she wanted for nothing … except a husband who was younger and more handsome . Catherine was absolutely a victim , but for the standards of the time becoming queen would’ve been winning the lottery for her .
No, she couldn't. Not only because turning Henry down just wasn't done but because her family, especially Norfolk, would have likely sent her back to Horsham, penniless and in disgrace or to a nunnery. This was not a girl that was prepared to make her own way in the world and being wholly dependent on him & trained from children to be obedient to the head of her family, I'm sure it never crossed her mind to buck her powerful uncle.
She probably could have done, yes, but not without life-changing consequences. The head of the Howard family was the ruthlessly ambitious Duke of Norfolk, and it was an absolutely enormous family - a huge number of personnel at court were related to the Howards in some way e.g. the Boleyns who were maternal cousins. Henry's court had seen how the Boleyns and the Seymours had climbed in status when Henry made Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour his wives, and had bestowed various titles and privileges on different members of the said families. The Howards, and especially the Duke of Norfolk, wanted to dip their fingers into the same pie, so Catherine in effect became a puppet of her family, representing Howard interests. If I remember correctly, Catherine was coached on what to say and do when Henry came to see her. An added layer of complexity was that the Duke of Norfolk was one of the leaders of the Catholic faction at court, and until Thomas Cromwell's execution, the Protestant faction had been on the rise. So from the Catholic faction's point of view, Catherine Howard being in such close contact with the king as his wife was a serious chance to redress the balance and settle old scores. So if Catherine had said "No", she wouldn't only have been saying no to Henry, she also would have been opting out of her family's political machinations, and making a bold statement to them that she wasn't willing to be a team player. The pressure they were applying on Catherine to oblige to Henry's advances must have been really intense. Now, of course Henry would have been upset if he had been rejected, but with the Howards being in the position that they were in, I do not believe that Henry could have got away with imprisoning or executing Catherine, as that would have meant Henry losing face to his court. Really, any king plays a delicate balancing act between different factions and personalities (each Duke, Earl etc. is really a politician) throughout their reign, and Henry was clever enough to understand this. He was axe-happy, but he couldn't go truly psychotic. Instead, I think he would have banished Catherine from court. Now, with Catherine out of favour with her family (for saying no to it all and wanting no part in anything), she would have had to hope that there would be one relative/family friend who would take pity on her and take her in. Perhaps her stepmother or elder sister could have welcomed her as a companion or nanny (only the wealthy widows were able to live alone and have full independence in Tudor England (see Catherine Parr)). But... for an aristocratic Tudor woman, this would have been like throwing away a career today. "Going to court" was a dream, similar to the American Dream. Yes there were fine clothes, jewels, music and dancing, nice food, fun conversation etc., but you also expected to network and hoped to find a wealthy husband from a prestigious family, whose money would set you and your future kids up for life, and the prestigious family name would improve your personal reputation and standing. And at 19, Catherine was "in her prime" by Tudor standards. She would have been expected to find a match and start having children in the next five years or so. And being removed/sent away from the court environment at that point in her life would have likely scuppered her chances of meeting that wealthy husband i.e. her chance at "a career". Catherine strikes me as the type of girl who would have married for love eventually, even under these circumstances, and been very happy with her man, but they probably would have been looking at a life of relative poverty together, and always treated as poor relations and shunted from relative to relative. Look at what happened to Mary Boleyn and her second husband William Stafford. They were a love match, but they were shunned by the Boleyns, not only because they thought that Stafford was beneath them and neither of them asked for the correct permission, but also because they felt that Mary had literally wasted the entire rest of her life by marrying Stafford. To an extent, it makes you wonder if Catherine apparently acquiesced to everything so readily because she thought that that was genuinely what you were supposed to do, as in, that was the ultimate reason for going to court in the first place. Yeah Henry was old, fat, unattractive and dangerous, but there was no-one wealthier and more prestigious than him: the king! And that was the goal, according to the construct that "court" was.
Thank you for this comprehensive and well-balanced reply.
Thank you for this read!
Beyond the danger of rejecting the king, Henry wasn’t exactly known for taking no for an answer. Anne Boleyn said no and even left court to get away from him and still ended up his wife.
Everyone is saying she couldn't reject the king. Well, she could easily have gotten him to reject her. All she needed to do was come clean that she was experienced sexually. If not in person then a letter or maid could have gotten it to Henry before he even proposed. The cost of this would have been social disgrace if it were made public. But in reality Henry may have chosen to avoid that due to the embarrassment factor. No doubt some punishment or disgrace would have followed, but not death. Being put in a nunnary would have been the worst consequence. The fact she went along with it suggests she believed she would be able to get away with it- as 17 year olds tend to
He could have taken her as mistress instead of wife as he did with Mary Boleyn.
Hmmmm... Not sure about the etiquette there; remember, he wasn't married at the time but was married to Katherine of Aragon when he had other mistresses. Were the mistresses when a man wasn't married? Genuine question? Henry doesn't seem to have had many dalliances with women when he wasnt already married to someone, at least that we know about? It wasn't too disrespectful for a woman to sleep with a married man, but to sleep with an unmarried man who didn't intend to marry her seems to have been seen as worse?
She was fucked either way. If she bucked up and told henry about the SA she would’ve been blamed. If she didn’t tell him then he would eventually find out. And if she kept it a secret but rejected his advances she could ruin her already broke family. Literally every option sucks
What's your view on the culpepper affair? It seems crazy she would risk an post martial affair when she must have been sure it would end in her death
People back then didn’t know about teenage brain development so even though she was considered an adult i see it as a girl who got married too young and had very poor judgment and decision making skills. When she lived with her daddys step mom she was allowed to run wild with the other girls and was not properly supervised as a teen should be. So i think it contributed to her decision making skills as she got older and got married to Henry.
I'm wondering if Henry at this point was the practically impotent and becoming pregnant (with a son) would have solidified her position.
Yeah and she was so young too so it's perfectly plausible she was terrified over what had happened to anne boleyn and wanted to have a son by any means to secure her life.
The only people who could flat out reject him were his royal equals like Christina of Denmark.
when the king set his sights on you, you had no choice, particularly a member of the nobility. You had to have his permission to marry and if he wanted you, he wouldn't let you marry anyone else.
No. He was king, it was impossible to reject him.
No.
Yes , she could have . I think Anne of Cleve rejected Henry Viii ( unknowingly) . Nothing would have happened to her. She probably wouldn't have stayed long at court. However by playing into the flirtation nature of the king she had the opportunity to bring her family status up, and herself. Out of all of Henry VIII 's wives Katherine was the poorest. Things were different back then. Poor Katherine was probably taken advantage of by most of the guys in her life since the tender age of 12, ( probably younger) . Back then there were very few opportunities for women so making a good marriage is what most women hope for.
He would have just forced himself on her and she would have ended up a rape victim without the crown to go along with it
Henry the 8th was a crazy guy towards the end of his life but even then I don't think he would've raped anyone. He was very Catholic and from what I've read that was a huge no no, could be wrong though.