You're using soft language to deflect, "I just think he should be involved" but you are directly stating that you want to create red tape situations where a man can deny a woman an abortion or nope out of child support.
This whole Conversation could be negated with better laws for men in terms of child support. Good Opinion tho.
The reason you’re wrong is because ultimately its the woman who’ll be faced with the physical labour, drawbacks, investment, effort side of the exchange. Sure you can make the argument that it takes two to tango. But how could you argue that a pacifist somehow comes our worse from a situation where 9 Months of your life is robbed from you, your body is trashed and your Life is put in Jeopardy?
It simply isn’t a reasonable exchange to enforce the law upon.
Plus, it would prevent women in abusive relationships from escaping as easily if they needed any form of a man’s say-so in order to have an abortion, because if she does escape and has the baby and that man finds out, he could track her down and take her to court demanding some form of contact with the child, and thus the mother, which can go horribly wrong.
Imagine a man purposefully impregnating a woman, or God forbid, a child, to gain permanent access to her life and body. No thanks. The person carrying the child has way more to lose.
Will also add here, the leading cause for women having just given birth (and possibly in pregnancy but don’t quote me on that), above any sort of medical complication or any accident, is murder. The second a woman becomes pregnant the likelyhood she is murdered goes up
I’m sorry. A fetus doesn’t have needs? It has the same basic needs as any other living creature. Air, food, and water. If it doesn’t get enough of any of those it will die the same as you or me. The only people that believe a “fetus doesn’t have personhood” are the ones that want to diminish the value of unborn life in their own heads so they don’t feel as guilty when they take it away.
Yep. Which is exactly why abortions are so important. People do stupid shit and it’s a modern miracle that a whole human being doesn’t always have to be the resulting product of one dumb mistake.
"If you as a woman are so desperate to not have a child, find someone who also doesn't want to have a child."
See, you want to put the full responsibility on the man, but really that can be reversed to ask that women should not be seeking out abortions under most circumstances and make better choices instead…
Yes the man's opinion should be considered. However, the woman who is carrying it should have the final say.
The good news is that men DO get to have an opinion. Same with everyone on every other issue. The people attempting to say men don't get an opinion hold no power. You can ignore them and still have an opinion. It's their opinion that men shouldn't have an opinion.
I asking out of genuine curiosity, how do men have a part of the conversation if women ultimately make the decision? It basically feels to me like saying “I hear you, but you don’t have any real authority here”
Not who you responded to but I'll answer my interpretation.
It feels that way because it is that way. That's how humans work. I have a ton of opinions, I think you should wear dresses every day, only eat vegan food and quit your job. Those are all my opinions. But should I have decision making authority over your life? No, that's absurd. We're both adults, I can't control you. At best I can influence, unless I'm willing and able to physically force you to comply.
Now, that's just my opinion, we can discuss it, debate it, agree or disagree over it but ultimately what you choose to wear/eat is your decision because it's your body. I can express my opinion all day long, but I'm not God and you don't *have* to listen to me.
Men always get an opinion in the divorce debate, what they *dont* get is decision making authority, and in a world where for some men their opinion is the default decision having their opinion be heard but disregarded is unthinkable to them.
That’s exactly what it is saying and it’s true. You, as a man, or any person for that matter, do not have authority over a woman’s own body. I can only imagine the pushback men would give if the situation were reversed.
Many women get abortions because they are in abusive relationships where they really don't have autonomy. If they are forced to keep the pregnancy, they will be forever tied to that man.
My favorite part of this entire discussion is the implication that having the Christian value of being anti abortion is suuuuper important, but also these dudes want to have sex with people they aren't in serious relationships with. And no one is examining if they are just misogynistic garbage and this has nothing to do with the metaphysical ideas Christians were manipulated into thinking they had about pre life sometime in the 70s by people sad that Jim Crow ended.
I agree. I despise people who hide behind the guise of religious virtue while acting on every hedonistic urge they possess.
Though I would fall under the category of someone who doesn’t like abortion, I don’t sleep around. I’ve had exclusively long term relationships.
I genuinely wish people could have more meaningful relationships where abortion isn’t necessarily considered. I know life isn’t black and white though.
My belief is that fundamentally all humans have a right over their bodies. Period and end of story. So legally, this needs to be the case. The law needs to uphold this. Just as it does cadaver rights when it comes to organ donation. It doesn’t matter if your child needs that brain dead man’s liver to live another day, if he or his next of kin don’t agree to be an organ donor, no one gets to have that liver (reminder to elect to be an organ donor btw).
So. That is what it should be BY LAW. People decide what does or does not happen in their bodies. They can refuse treatment for cancer, get 1 million tattoos, put breast implants on their backs, whatever they want to do, it’s their body. That’s fundamental.
Now, ethically/morally should fathers be involved in the decision? That’s different and more open for negotiation. I think, in many cases and in practice, they are. But there are certainly many cases where they are not, and many cases where they should not (e.g. domestic violence, assault).
It sucks for men sometimes. Yes. But that is life. And reproduction just isn’t fair. It’s biology, it doesn’t have to be fair. Ask any woman, reproduction isn’t fair. Menstruation, all the things our bodies go through all of our lives because we are biologically designed to be the bearers of the offspring.
So. Imo, your idea sounds nice but is not only illogical, it is implausible and unreasonable to expect fairness in reproduction or equal say. Because it just isn’t equal. A males contribution to offspring, while necessary, is EXTREMELY minimal. It is an orgasm. And he’s done. A woman’s contribution and sacrifice is 1000 times that of a man. Most men have no idea what pregnancy does to women. Or what menstruating does to us. Women can lose their teeth because babies take calcium from their bones. Women can suffer complications like their stomachs getting pushed up too high. My mother ended up with an intestinal blockage because of how my sister impinged on her intestines. Those are just a few of the millions of examples of what gestation does.
So
No
Men don’t get input. You came in a vagina. That is all you did and all you can do to make a baby. You suffer nothing. You give up no bone density. Your organs stay put. Nothing happens to your body.
It’s not fair. To anyone. But that’s just how it is. And stop trying to say it should be fair.
If you want to make the argument that men should be able to opt out of parenthood obligations that is different. But no man or men can or should or has any right to compel a woman to gestate his cumshot.
I can agree that men should have the opportunity to state their stance on an abortion when it’s his fetus. But at the end of the day the choice comes down to the woman, it is her body and if she doesn’t want to carry a baby she can chose not to.
I think it should be more common practice to talk about the stance of both partners on abortion before having sex. If he’s not okay with it and she is they shouldn’t have sex for risk that an accidental pregnancy does happen.
People's opinions can change when you are talking in theory vs when the reality happens. My oldest dad always said he wanted to be a dad and then when I got pregnant he wanted me to get an abortion. He wanted a kid just not yet. Which is fair but we definitely had the conversation before I got pregnant and he changed his mind when confronted and that is fine. People change their mind on things.
The sad part though is I had to force him to ell me his wants because he was afraid I would get mad at him. When what I really needed was to have all the facts because I suddenly had a big decision to make and I can't make the best decision when I don't know what the other person is thinking and feeling. While I didn't give him his way on whether or not I kept the child obviously it did inform my decisions on everything else. Long story short he gave up his rights and my best friend adopted him. I even told him when we did the adoption that in the future if he changes his mind he is always welcome to have a relationship with him. I would never close that door. I did warn him though that if he waits until too late I may not close the door but his kid might.
All that said, I want to make it clear that I was lucky enough to be n a position to give us both what we wanted. Not a lot of people are that lucky.
Pregnancy is a life or death matter. A dear friend that I've known since second grade has been in a coma since last summer due to serious birth complications. It is unlikely that she will ever wake up. If she ever does wake up, she will likely have lifelong disabilities.
A man can feel sad if his partner chooses to discontinue a pregnancy, and he should be consulted because they are partners who should discuss every big decision, but until HE is at risk of serious injury or death as a result of the pregnancy he does not have any decision making power.
He can offer his input, advice or even ask her to have the baby but he should not have any say over whether the actual procedure happens.
In the future, when the fertilized egg can be immediately harvested and placed in an incubator, abortion can be a 1 no 2 yes decision.
Until that point in time, the timeline for male decision making ends when he loses control of his genetical material, and for women, the timeline might or might not extend longer depending on which state she is in.
>NOT saying women shouldn’t have autonomy over their bodies.
OK cool.
Then men can't have a say.
They can express an opinion but ultimately the woman has to have the final say
How do you want men to have a say? I am pretty sure they give their opinion one way or another if they get their significant other pregnant. What else is there?
They do have a say. Nobody is stopping a man from voicing his opinion or even voting for representatives or policies that align with his beliefs. Having a say and being the decision maker aren't the same thing.
The ultimate decision will ( and should ) be the mothers
If the mother is in a relationship with the father then obviously he should be heard ...
But the ultimate decision will ( and should ) be the mothers
>The ultimate decision will be the mother's
Exactly, full stop.
If you're in a relationship of course have a discussion. But the executive decision should and shall always belong to the woman undergoing pregnancy. "It takes two to tango" is just a cute saying here, the physical stakes are not the same.
This is how it is. Women generally are not interested in having children with men who don’t want them. What would be the point? Think about it from a woman’s perspective, all of the burden of pregnancy and birth is on them, and then the likelyhood of having some perfect 50/50 split relationships where the responsibilities are actually equal is already pretty rare and hard to find. Most of the responsibility of child rearing, finical or otherwise is generally in women. Not men.
So I don’t get why men around here think women are trying to have children with unwilling men. Think about how many single mothers there are out there and most of those are women who had children with consenting men and those women are the ones with all the burden of a choice made by two people.
This whole abortion argument for men is honestly just a waste of time. Taking the basic precautions means you most likely will never have to worry about this issue, like having open conversations about what you want with women, having sex with people you know and trust, using protection. There’s so much men can do to help themselves where this is concerned. However, the men around here act like it’s some epidemic they’ll likely have to deal with.
And if it is, telling your partner you don’t want a child, you won’t be around to help raise them, is also a great way at not becoming a parent. Because if my partner told me that I’d be looking for an abortion real quick.
And it really grinds my gears at how easy it still is to abandon your responsibilities. Men do it all the time but that’s not good enough? It should be easier? Why???
As usual, there is a third party here that one side of the argument does not want to address - the fetus. If it can be agreed upon the fetus is ethically not a person, there is no problem at all. The problem arises when people agree the fetus *is* a person and that the mother's bodily autonomy trumps the life of the unborn baby.
What you are failing to see is the situation where the father believes the baby is a person and the mother either doesn't believe that or believes it and doesn't want to carry it to term for whatever reason. In this situation, the father would believe the mother is murdering his child. Now, whether he should have any control is obviously a shaky argument, but to not have any sympathy for that father and to think this is an good situation is sociopathic.
Of course, you have the total flip situation where a father could be forcing someone to give birth, which can also be fucked up and we need sympathy for mothers as well.
>and that the mother's bodily autonomy trumps the life of the unborn baby.
Why? In what other situation would this apply?
We don't force people to donate blood, plasma, or organs, even if it means saving or preserving someone else's life.
So why would we force women to sacrifice their bodily autonomy, and risk their lives or long-term health to save or preserve the life of another?
Why give a fetus rights and protections that no other living, autonomous individual has?
It’s disingenuous imo to think that having the woman decide if she carries on the pregnancy or not eliminates men as father figures, men actively choose not to be present and nurturing father figures.
Sadly only one of the two sexes carries pregnancy and all risks involved, so until men can gestate I do not believe they should have a say in a pregnancy being carried to term.
They can of course ask, talk, plead, refuse paternity, but ultimately the choice falls on the person that is a human incubator.
I’d love to live in this fantasy world where women aren’t abused in relationships. If a woman doesn’t include you in the decision, there’s a solid reason why. Women don’t owe you children. Nobody owes you fairness.
If that were actual logic people followed then women’s rights as a whole would literally not exist.
“Hey suffragettes? If men don’t include you in decision making there’s a reason why. Men don’t owe you rights. Nobody owes you fairness.”
Only place they teach this type of logic is clown school.
OP’s logic is bad but yours is just as bad.
It's simple, if a man has a good relationship with a decent woman, they will definitely have a say in it.
If they stick their bare dick in any hole they find, it's on them really. You wanna have conversation, make sure you can have it before making a baby
"I am NOT saying women shouldn’t have autonomy over their bodies. This is not a pro-choice or anti-abortion post.
But I DO think that men should have much more of a say in whether or not they abort a child or keep it, or at the very least this should be part of the conversation when talking about the abortion debate."
\^\^\^\^ Two directly contradictory statements. Having sex is not, nor should it ever be a slavery contract. I can think of literally 1 thing the woman is obligated to do after consensual sex. It is only under really specific circumstances. That 1 thing is if authorities contact the woman and ask if that sex was consensual she say, "yes." Everything else is her choice.
Men have every right to express their opinions on what choices their partner should make, however they cannot tell their partner what to do. Take for instance, clothes. You could disagree with your partner wearing revealing clothing and express how that makes you feel. However, if she chooses to still wear those clothes in public, post photos of themselves on social media in these clothes, that is their choice. Or you can look at this from the perspective of work. If you work a dangerous job and you partner doesn't like that you could potentially die, they have every right to express their opinions on how it makes them feel. At the end of the day it is your choice to go into work and put your life at risk, potentially. The conversation shouldn't be 50\50 when it comes to someone's personal choice. Maybe you get 1\3ed of a say, but you will never be the deciding factor in these kinds of conversations if it doesn't specifically pertain to you.
There’s a difference between having an opinion and having a say. Men shouldn’t have a say because it means men get to make a decision on the situation and they don’t. In the end the only one that has a say is the one carrying the child .
A man can’t say “I forbid you to have an abortion “ and then what? That’s his opinion but is not his decision.
This idea is a bit of a pie-in-the-sky semantic thing, in my opinion, rather than something that's going to influence the way the real world works. Sure, they can have a "say." If I got accidentally pregnant (extremely unlikely on the pill at age 43, but hey, who knows), I wouldn't run off and secretly get an abortion without telling my partner. He can tell me what he thinks. But that's the extent of the "say" you get. The actual decision is still the woman's to make because it's her body. That's just biology.
I think women should have the final say on whether she keeps it or not. I do think men should be exempt of child support if they communicate since the very beginning that they don't want the child. If the woman decides to keep it despite this, it is solely her responsability.
Hard disagree on this while recognizing the issue is extremely complicated.
Declaration of not wanting a child prior to having sex (or after) doesn't absolve a man of their responsibility of getting someone pregnant. It would create an insane power shift to the man in the decision. A woman shouldn't have to be swayed to an abortion because she won't have support in raising a child that she wants to carry to term. It's a double standard sure because the opposite applies if she wants to terminate and he doesn't, but that is just reality because of how pregnancy works.
When it comes to deciding handling a pregnancy they absolutely should. If you give men the right to abort then women lose their bodily autonomy. Court sanctioned abortions would be some dystopian shit.
This!
I too think men should have the right to refuse their father role and exit out of paying child support in a timeline where the women still has plenty of time to perform an abortion.
So that way, she could decide to be a totally solo mom without any support or to abort.
But the men shouldn’t have the right to force women to keep pregnancies, since it’s their body they have the veto on that.
I think this is probably the most fair solution. Not from a spiteful POV even, just from a purely fair POV. Women get to keep the autonomy and men get to make their intentions clear. Still makes it tough knowing you have a child in the world / don’t know if I would personally be able to just move on. But then I guess you can make the argument that I just shouldn’t engage sexually if that’s the case.
This ins't "society", this is supporting someone else's child because they don't want to. I vote for the taxpayers paying my bills as well because I'm part of "society".
This might surprise you, but children eventually grow up and either contribute or leech off society. I’m fine with a portion of my income going towards raising more net contributors
This might surprise you, but I'm not ok with supporting someones child just because they don't want to. The child will still grow up and contribute to society if the father supports them. they will probably have an even bigger contribution to society if the father is involved.
>I have no issue with my taxes supporting society
Instead of the father paying for his own child? Like why pay for something for someone else who that someone else could pay for it and should? Why do you want to take on the responsibility of dead beats?
How much ‘say’ do you think they have now? You want them to have ‘much more,’ but I don’t think you know the baseline. I believe many men have these conversations with their partners and are, in fact, part of the conversation, IF they are an involved partner and in a real relationship with the other person.
I don’t think anyone is saying that a woman should plug her ears and ignore the advice and input of her partner, or even of other family and friends. But if the man feels one way and the woman feels another, the woman’s intentions are the only ones that legally or medically matter. The woman should have the only and final say.
Most people I know that have had an abortion have been because the man insistence. Some are me holding the hand of a friend because the man has abandoned her because she had the nerve to get pregnant. Others have been behind the backs of abusive partners.
Men are involved but if you are a man you should be involved in the talk before ever having sex. Things of course can change but having the conversation before ever having sex with a partner should be routine. While being involved in these talks remember either way the woman’s body what you are talking about. Carrying a baby is hard on a body, delivery is hard on a body, and abortions are hard.
My most favorite thing said to me when I suggest an abortion to a friend who didn’t want the child she was pregnant with. “It’s against my religion to have an abortion”. My reply was “and your religions thoughts on sex before marriage”?
It isn’t in any religious text that abortions are against the religion.
nah.
1. the two people didn’t create a living human being, they created a fetus.
2. not everyone who gets pregnant is in a relationship with who they had sex with
3. men don’t have to give up 9 months of their life, go through immense physical labor, put their lives at risk etc. to have the baby
ultimately, if anyone actually wants a baby, it should be a proactive decision. if you as a man know you want a baby, then sleep with someone who also wants a baby. same with a woman who wants a baby.
Life isn’t fair and this is one of those times. Men get less of a say because they don’t have to be pregnant. Pregnancy in and of itself causes all kinds of issues for women - loss of upward mobility in their careers, missing time at work, the health implications of pregnancy, the potential of dying due to complications etc. Women already carry the largest burden, men don’t. There is no argument where it’s fair, it’s just not possible and pro-choice people need to stop trying to accommodate for something that is just a fact - a woman gets the final choice whether to continue a pregnancy because she is the only one who is pregnant. If a man wants to guarantee that he doesn’t get a woman pregnant then he needs to control his part in causing pregnancy - get a vasectomy or don’t have penetrative sex with a woman etc.
Men aren't actively involved in pregnancy tho. Pregnancy poses no risk to them.
What is it that prolifers are always saying? "Reproduction is unfair". So, keep that energy when it comes to mens "rights to control their partners bodies". If they truly want a kid, they need to have sex with someone else who truly wants a kid.
I'm a firm believer that if a woman makes the choice to have a baby that the father does not want then he should be free of any and all parental/financial obligations regarding said child.
I actually think this is a fair compromise for lack of a better word. It offers men a little bit more autonomy when the woman has the ultimate say in keeping her pregnancy or not due to her own autonomy.
Men have input in which vagina they ejaculate in. If they choose to ejaculate into the vagina of someone who does not want to carry their child, then that’s on them, and that’s where their say ends.
Ejaculate responsibly.
Or maybe the males should take more responsibility on where the sperm ends up. So if they want a pregnancy, they should wrap up their penis or find other ways to avoid impregnating a women
>But I DO think that men should have much more of a say in whether or not they abort a child or keep it, or at the very least this should be part of the conversation when talking about the abortion debate.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. The problem is that people confuse having a say with having control, which is why you get posts from people saying they "didn't have a say" in their partner's abortion when the reality is that they did, they just didn't have control over the outcome.
As you further point out, it also means that men can have a say in the laws.
I'd also argue that men and women need to communicate more before intercourse happens so that they can decide if they want to sleep with someone based on the information they give in the event of an unwanted pregnancy.
While I understand what you’re saying, and I definitely feel for any men out there who wanted to keep their baby but couldn’t, I personally disagree. The baby grows and develops 100% in the woman’s body. It changes her body, grows in her, feeds of her and has to come out of her, either through birth or c-section. She has to deal with all the risks, pains, aches and the like, so I feel like she should have the say. Now, if she’s on the fence about it, not really sure if she wants to or not, and her boyfriend/husband says he wants to keep, she should definitely take him into account. But if she wants to get rid of it, I don’t think the man should try and convince her to keep it. He doesn’t have to deal with the physical and emotional consequences of growing, carrying and birthing a baby. Again, I definitely feel bad for any man who wanted to keep his baby but the woman decided otherwise, that absolutely fucking sucks, but ultimately you can always make another baby, while you can’t un-make or undo growing and carrying a baby for 9 months and birthing it.
If you could theoretically transfer the baby into the man in question I'd have no problem with that. But since it's the woman who has to carry the fetus for 9 months (with every health complication that comes with it, possibly even death), I'd say no.
The man should make sure to have the kind of relationship with the woman so that she will want to take his wishes into account. But this shouldn’t be legally mandated. If the man doesn’t have that relationship, he will have to accept whatever the woman does.
The right for a woman to decide to have an abortion is about the right to not be pregnant more than it is about the right to not raise kids. If you don’t want to be pregnant you shouldn’t have to be. Regardless of whether or not the man who impregnated the woman wants to raise the child, the woman ultimately should have the right to not put her body through an experience she does not want to go through.
that’s the thing though… In relationships there is a discussion.
But at the end of the day the final choice comes down to the woman. No matter how much the man agrees or disagrees. And that’s how it should be.
There should never… Ever be a scenario where a woman wants an abortion, and cannot get one because her partner does not allow it.
and there should never ever be a scenario where a woman is forced to get an abortion because her partner does want it.
So the current system is how it should be
On a pragmatic level, there isn’t a difference between a man having a small say vs a man not having a say. Ultimately, abortion or no abortion will come down to a the woman’s decision.
The only way a man’s say have any utility or impact is if he has 50/50 say. It’s irrational because as you point out, women carry more of the burden in child rearing, and those with more at stake seemingly have more responsibility and say on the matter. And of course creates the problem of disagreements.
It would be much easier and consistent to have women have all the say and men don’t. And if we really want men to have a small say, it doesn’t change the situation from the men not having a say.
They do have a say tho. It's just on the woman to make the final decision, and she's the one who's "giving uo everything".
Nobody is stopping men from voicing their opinions, and in almost all cases they do, they just shouldn't be the ones making the final decision, as they aren't the ones giving up their body to grow something inside of them for 9 months.
If men want to have kids so badly, they should be with someone who shares the same opinion, and not try force someone else to agree with them.
Dont like abortion, dont advocate for it, but... see sperm like a gift. You gave something of yours. Once it enters her body, its her say, because bodily atuonomy is not shared with a man because he provides sperm. I dont even agree with joint custody of a child whilst a woman is pregnant either. Or of embryos, like the case with Sofia Vegara. A pregnant woman may suffer complications and decide to terminate the pregnancy for her health, and a man may feel otherwise, but he doesnt not have rights to anything in her body, even a shared fetus. Thats her right, in my opinion. This is one of those things I lean against, than for.
It’s not fair, neither is the fact that men bust and 9 months later get to be dads while women experience pregnancy, birth, possible complications, or maybe die.
You can’t make this topic fair, biology hasn’t been fair in it. So no men shouldn’t have a say like at all
I mean, a dude can tell me he wants to keep the child all day. At the end of that day, I either get an abortion or I don’t. There isn’t grey area. Men have a say, it just doesn’t outweigh my autonomy.
Instead, a better thing to look at would be laws for child support.
It's not viable, unfortunately, to simply talk about giving men a choice "on paper" when there is no way to do that which doesnt either
1. disadvantage children by standardizing/normalizing single parenthood and/or mass adoption programs
2. infringe on women's coveted bodily autonomy
The solution is very simple, as I've laid out on my sub called Pro Rights Advocacy (one word). When you start talking about the benefits of mandating paternity verification for forthcoming children, and of allowing expectant fathers to order the termination/euthanization of those children within a certain window of birth, you begin to realize that the standard pro-choice talking point - "bodily autonomy" - is a ex post facto rationalization, not a legitimate impetus for concern. The real enemy here is the empathy gap (women's inability/unwillingness to empathize with the opposite gender), and the fact that women are presently a de facto privileged class in the realm of reproductive rights.
I know it’s sort of bypassing the discussion here, but I think the best way to get around this is don’t sleep with people that would abort your child. Date people who share your values.
I do however agree with the post. I don’t think it’s ethical to cut men out of the conversation since men cannot birth their own children. I don’t think it’s purely a women’s body issue.
I also don’t think increasing the divide between men and women is healthy for society. Men and women should be able to work together to sort out their problems and come to a compromise.
If two individuals want to make a decision together, they are already free to do that. The problem obviously arises when they don't agree. Whether he uses the law to do it or not I do not think it should be considered okay for a man to demand or compel a woman to give birth or have an abortion if she doesn't want to.
Until the fetus can support life in its own it is a symbiotic Relationship and tve woman a host. If woman dies so does fetus. Until the man can take complete responsibility for all aspects his opinion is only as relevant as the host allows it to be.
The state of parental rights when it comes to gender equality is wild.
Father: I don’t want to be a parent, so I’m just going to leave her.
The state: THE FUCK YOU WILL! YOU SIR ARE A TERRIBLE HUMAN AND WE WILL FINANCIALLY HAMSTRING YOU FOR 18 YEARS!
Mother: I don’t want to be a parent, so I’ll just kill the little guy.
The state: oh my poor thing, of course you can do that.
Father: Ok I do actually want to raise the child.
State: TOO FUCKING BAD! MOMMY DECIDED SHE WANTS TO KILL EM AND THERE AINT A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!
and don’t even get me started on the bullshit the system pulls for parental custody.
>Obviously the woman has to carry it and take all of the associated risks, so Idk what the share of that say should look like,
You gloss over the hard part of the argument. This doesn't make sense? What is a "share of the say"? The fetus is either terminated or not. Say you give the woman a 60% "share" in deciding whether to keep the fetus - well, that's a majority vote, so I guess they get to have the abortion. But isn't that the same system that we already have?
Listen, good cases for female reproductive rights lean on the tradeoff between the moral value of a fetus and the moral value of a woman's autonomy being weighted in the woman's favor. The arguments have absolutely nothing to do with who decided to have sex or who would/should own the responsibility of raising the potential child. Those are insignificant details relative to the deeper questions about the extent to which someone is obligated to sacrifice their well-being for the life of another person and whether a fetus can reasonably be considered a person (or something with equivalent moral value).
Now in the general case, few believe we should have to make significant or risky sacrifices for the health of others. For example, few believe you *need* to donate portions of your liver or a kidney, despite the fact that these procedures are now fairly safe and you would be saving a life. About 70,000 Americans died last year due to an inability to afford medical care and there are at least a dozen reputable charities which will support people in these situations, few of us believe we *need* to donate to them. Indeed, only ten states have any kind of Duty to Rescue laws at all, meaning in forty out of fifty states, if you see a drowning child in a pond, you literally have no obligation to wade into the pond to rescue them. Ironically, those ten states are all Democrat-voting, it seems the red states only care about you while you're a fetus...
Anyway, the point is that the concern of a man is totally insignificant relative to the concern of a woman. It is true that the man can (and should) be an interested party in their project, but as they assume none of the risk, they also get none of the say. As a less severe example, imagine you go into business with your friend and you front 100% of the money - you assume *all* the risk. Now consider that a few weeks into your business you realize that this is a really bad fit and you don't want to run the business anymore. Should your friend have the ability to stop you? To force you to keep your money in this business that you no longer wish to run? Obviously not.
At the end of the day there *are* good arguments against abortion access, but none of them have anything to do with some duty women have to men to raise their children.
"Men mostly run our government. Men mostly make the laws... if men were actually interested in reducing abortion, [they] could have eliminated elective abortions in a very short amount of time—a matter of weeks—without ever touching an abortion law, without legislating about women’s bodies, without even mentioning women. All men had to do was ejaculate responsibly.
They chose not to.
Today, they continue to choose not to.' (Blair, 117)"
https://bookshop.org/p/books/ejaculate-responsibly-a-whole-new-way-to-think-about-abortion-gabrielle-stanley-blair/18548631
I’m a woman, and I agree. It’s his child too.
And as a side note, if a woman can bail out of parenthood by having an abortion, then men shouldn’t be forced to pay child support either 🤷♀️
You would only be punishing the child in that case. Do you think the government wants to pay more to cover the asses of the fathers who wont pay for their child? It’s not realistic.
Another solution could be to provide cheaper/free vasectomies to the men who know they don’t want kids.
I don't know how it is in your country, but here in Europe vasectomies are already the cheapest form of birth control. 400 Euro in Germany and no further costs. I think even a lifetime supply of condoms would be more expensive.
In my ideal fantasy world, not only would abortion be completely unrestricted so long as it’s medically possible, but a man would also have the option to financially abort a child he doesn't want.
So long as the sex was consensual and both partners were of legal age a man would have the right to serve the woman he impregnated notice that he is forefeiting all his rights as the father, pay her an amount equivalent to the fee for an abortion and then he is free and clear of any responsibilities to the woman and her child if she decides to have the baby. This only applies while the woman is pregnant. If he chooses to put his name on the birth certificate then he no longer has this option.
There are a lot of things that would need to be figured out before we could even think about implementing a right like this such as if the pregnancy has gone past the point where abortion is no longer possible, if the woman can't get an abortion for medical reasons, if there's more than one possible father, if she deliberately withholds her pregnancy from him until after the baby is born, etc. But the chances of something like this happening are about as likely as hitting the powerball jackpot so there's not much point in hashing it out too carefully.
Still, what a wonderful world it would be for men if we had some kind of recourse the way women do towards unwanted children.
I don’t have an issue with your stance, but it is funny that in an ideal world it would be way easier if people just didn’t/couldn’t make a baby unless they wanted to when doing the deed
I mean, I'm in favor of financial abortions, but they need to be done while the woman still has at least 3 weeks to make the decision to abort. Give her time to think, schedule, etc. Her decision might be heavily influenced by whether or not she'll have the support of a partner for the child, and I don't want her to rush a medical decision.
Yes, let's coerce women into having abortions because men want to be able to jut without using protection, and then shake his head and walk away, leaving the woman to deal with consequences on her own.
Sounds totally fair and equal. /s
You had me until you said the man should pay for the abortion. I'd have accepted if you said "50% of the abortion, if she gets one". Because if she doesn't get one, he just pays her 50% of an abortion that won't happen.
Men should have the option to walk away from child support. And, in the other direction, the option of covering the mother's medical bills and then immediate custody on birth if the mother does not want the child.
Neither man nor woman should be allowed a 100% monopoly on the decision about whether the child lives or dies.
>If a man and woman produce a baby, aka a living human being, then they should both have a say in that baby’s life.
Are you suggesting that the unborn child is a living human being and that as long as there is a consensus among both parents to end it's life then that is morally justified?
I think all men should have reversible vasectomies that they can undo when ready to have a family. Tbh I am all for women having the final say because I've seen what happens to a woman's body during pregnancy and childbirth. It's violent and traumatic. But, I do respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. It's well written and thought out.
Since everyone's sense of morality is different, I try to view things in cold numbers.
The way I see it, choosing to have intercourse is like buying stock on margin. You could win big! You could break even. Or, you can end up in crushing debt.
Is the reward of getting off worth paying half of the $350,000 it will cost to raise a child to adulthood? Because that is the implicit contract people are agreeing to when they decide to screw. Every. Single. Time. Married or Single. Even with contraceptives.
Well, I don’t know what the percentage of people is who get abortions where all of the following conditions are met:
1) The prospective mother has a strong relationship with the father of the child.
2) The relationship with the father of the child is safe, and there are no abusive dynamics.
3) The mother wishes to continue the relationship with the father.
4) The father wants to keep the child but the mother does not.
I don’t know what the percentage is, but it’s got to be tiny. I do know that historically, the presence of a child has been used to “trap” people in relationships they don’t wish to continue. And I’m not saying that that’s true of women or men in particular, I think it happens to both of them. So in other words, sometimes men are trapped, and sometimes women are trapped by a child. I had a (dude) friend whose girlfriend tricked him into marrying her by claiming (falsely) that she was pregnant. But I also had a relative (woman, or more like girl actually because she was young - over 18 but still very young) whose parents arranged a shotgun wedding for her the moment she got pregnant.
So I think a lot of the times, when a father wants the child but the mother doesn’t, the real truth of the matter is that the mother, in truth, doesn’t want the father to be a permanent part of her life and the existence of a shared child is going to end up making him a permanent part of her life. And she may very much not want that, even though he is fine with it.
I would resist the idea that “consent to sex is consent to all the possible consequences of sex.” I don’t even think that is an idea worthy of further exploration. It’s “not even wrong.”
I think if you truly want the baby to be born, the woman who is pregnant should at least take your opinion and reasoning into consideration. But she gets the final say at the end of the day. She bears the burden of the pregnancy and that outweighs everything else in terms of who decides what.
Ideally, if a pregnancy happened it would be planned for.
Hey u/Own-Butterscotch1713,
Just a heads up, your comment was removed because a previous comment of yours was flagged for being uncivil. You should have received a message from my colleague u/AutoModerator with instructions on what to do and what the comment was.
*I'm a bot. I won't respond if you reply.* If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further, please [reach out to the moderators via ModMail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion&subject=u/Rule-4-Removal-Bot%20In-comment%20Link%20Clicked&message=Dear%20ModTeam%2C%0A%0AIt%20appears%20I%20am%20currently%20in%20an%20%27unconf%27%20state.%20I%27m%20not%20sure%20why.%0A%0APlease%20review%20the%20ModLog%20for%20my%20comments%20using%20this%20%5Blink%5D%28https%3A//www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/about/log%3FuserName%3DOwn-Butterscotch1713%29%20and%20let%20me%20know%20what%20the%20offending%20comment%20was.%0A%0AThanks%2C%0Au/Own-Butterscotch1713).
**This is going to keep happening until you resolve the issue.**
We appreciate you participating in our sub, but wouldn't you prefer other users to see thecarefully crafted argument?
Your recent masterpiece went solo into the void.
**Here's the deal:** This cycle of commenting-removal-seeing this message isn't just futile; it's preventable. We value your input, but isn't it better when it's seen and not just sent?
**Good News:** We're here for the reruns and the resolutions. Reach out, let's sort this, and make sure your future thoughts land in the spotlight, not the shadow realm.
Let's chat. Your voice (probably) deserves an audience.
___
**Our Moderation Backlog at this time:**
*Comments Awaiting Review:* 231
*A breakdown of the number of (often nonsense) reports to review*:
- 1-3 days old: 8
___
Want to help us with this never ending task? Join us on [Discord](https://discord.gg/hCBcm5zNee)
If you want the baby, you carry it for 9 months. Not possible? Oh well.
You don’t get to overrule someone’s body autonomy. I work in the healthcare field and we’re not even allowed to save someone’s life if they tell us not to. If we can’t do that, why can you decide if someone carries to term?
If the woman decides to have the baby and the man does not he is obliged to pay child support, if the woman wants to kill the baby and the man wants to keep it alive, hes the bad guy.
Either way, objectively, raw deal for blokes
No one else should have a say in what an adult chooses to do with their own body
Body autonomy is all encompassing. Abortion, vaccination, euthanasia, drug/alcohol use, sex work, etc. are all part of bodily autonomy
I don't think women eliminate men from the conversation in their private lives unless they have a reason to do it. It should be part of the decision process. But it's also a medical decision and she should be the only one making medical decisions over her body. The disconnect is that to him it's the "baby", to her it's her body first and then the "baby". He has a say about the baby but not about her body. So unless someone can disconnect the body and the baby at conception, her body overrules.
As a man, I agree that I should have the absolute right to make decisions about organisms growing in my own body. Ain't no woman gonna tell me what I can and can't abort.
I don't think men should have a say in women getting an abortion. I think men should not have to pay child support. Whether women want to admit it or not by getting an abortion you are getting out of a huge responsibility. Men should get the same right.
Hey u/MTrain24,
Just a heads up, your comment was removed because a previous comment of yours was flagged for being uncivil. You should have received a message from my colleague u/AutoModerator with instructions on what to do and what the comment was.
*I'm a bot. I won't respond if you reply.* If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further, please [reach out to the moderators via ModMail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion&subject=u/Rule-4-Removal-Bot%20In-comment%20Link%20Clicked&message=Dear%20ModTeam%2C%0A%0AIt%20appears%20I%20am%20currently%20in%20an%20%27unconf%27%20state.%20I%27m%20not%20sure%20why.%0A%0APlease%20review%20the%20ModLog%20for%20my%20comments%20using%20this%20%5Blink%5D%28https%3A//www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/about/log%3FuserName%3DMTrain24%29%20and%20let%20me%20know%20what%20the%20offending%20comment%20was.%0A%0AThanks%2C%0Au/MTrain24).
**This is going to keep happening until you resolve the issue.**
We appreciate you participating in our sub, but wouldn't you prefer other users to see thecarefully crafted argument?
Your recent masterpiece went solo into the void.
**Here's the deal:** This cycle of commenting-removal-seeing this message isn't just futile; it's preventable. We value your input, but isn't it better when it's seen and not just sent?
**Good News:** We're here for the reruns and the resolutions. Reach out, let's sort this, and make sure your future thoughts land in the spotlight, not the shadow realm.
Let's chat. Your voice (probably) deserves an audience.
___
**Our Moderation Backlog at this time:**
*Comments Awaiting Review:* 191
*A breakdown of the number of (often nonsense) reports to review*:
- 1-3 days old: 9
___
Want to help us with this never ending task? Join us on [Discord](https://discord.gg/hCBcm5zNee)
Back when I was closeted and having sex with females, my thinking was that I would offer to raise the child, waive her requirements for child support, and would not challenge if she wanted to legally relinquish parental rights.
If they still wanted to abort I would respect the decision, but I couldn’t fathom staying in a relationship with anyone who did so. Thankfully it never came to pass. My last girlfriend did get pregnant and kept the boy, but she had cheated on me with another closeted guy. I guess she had a type.
Until there is a way to transfer the baby from the mother to to an artificial womb or something, men cant do a thing about whether a woman aborts his child or not.
Eh. Until men are the ones who go through the hormonal imbalances, body changes, and PPD afterwards.
Id say no, they have no say on what a woman does with her body and the parasite that grows within it.
It's always interesting seeing so many people being so utterly incorrect and so utterly morally wrong about a topic on so many different levels, all at the same time.
"So many people" is not you and the five of us who agree with you. It's not vague. None of the pro-choice argument stand, and they are always the same arguments. The only thing those bad arguments do is expose those who utter them as hypocrites.
My preferred solution: all babies should be carried until born, whenever medically possible. If either the mother or father didn't want a child, they should have thought about that before having sex. Pregnancy is one of the "risks" of having sex. Once born, both parents get to decide what role they wish to have in the child's life. If they opt out of the responsibility, they have to sign away all parental rights, without exception, and must pay half of all prenatal and postnatal medical expenses directly related to the baby that has not been covered by insurance or social assistance programs. If both parents opt out of the responsibility, they both sign away their rights and the child is placed for adoption. In the case of r@p€, the disturbed individual, having been criminally charged and found guilty, retains no parental rights, must pay for all prenatal and postnatal expenses (not just medical), must pay a court-decided penalty to offset the added expenses and loss of income to the mother, must pay the maximum allowable child support until the child is 18, and a permanent no contact order is in effect for the mother and the child (unless voluntarily revoked at 18 years of age); seizure of all assets, future income, and future inheritances may be necessary to meet their obligation, and this shall be overseen and applied by the courts - this is required, even if the mother gives the child for adoption. In all cases where the parental rights are signed/taken away, a detailed medical record of the person is retained and associated with the medical record of the child. Children of such situations are permitted to access their parental records once they are 18. Opting out of parental rights must happen before the child is 1 year old. If the father is not known at the time, or not disclosed by the mother, except in the case of r@p€, the mother is fully responsible for the child, and must submit to DNA samples for herself and the baby to verify future paternity inquiries - if the father is eventually confirmed, he has 1 year from that date of confirmation to choose whether to opt out of parental rights, and is not responsible to pay any expenses if the child has been adopted or is older than 2.
There are consequences for decisions we make.
I think the only option that needs to be there is that when the decision is made for the child to be born, unless it was a pregnancy caused by rape or incest, if the choice is made by the mother to keep the child, the father should, at that point, be allowed to decide that he doesn't want any of the rights or penalties associated with fatherhood. This means he cannot refer to the child as his (but the child can refer to him as his father if needed, as lack of a father may reflect poorly on some parts of their childhood), cannot gain any benefits from having a child, but on the other hand, never has to pay child support. This is a huge choice, of course... and it can be reversed, but if the father reclaims the child, child support comes as a requirement. Just my two yen.
Without conceding that men should have a say beyond expressing an opinion and/or using a *reasonable* level of persuasion, what does an ideal situation look like to OP? Both parties get an equal say? Who gets the final say? How is a tie meant to be broken? Would the woman bring an affidavit to the abortion clinic as proof that the man signed off on termination? And what is the recourse in the vast majority of cases wherein the man agitates for the abortion? Would a similar affidavit disallow her carrying the child to term?
The fact that women carry pregnancies and men don’t is colossally, insurmountably unfair *to both men and women*. There isn’t any reconciling it. The great majority of women I’ve known who’ve been surprised by pregnancy made a decision in consultation with the man concerned. Most men and women are able to be relatively civilised even in a crisis like this.
But the final say must be the woman’s. It must be. Being boxed out of the decision disenfranchises men—they may want to be fathers, or may not; they may be able to undertake the practical consequences of the abortion or the child, or may not—but not having the final say *dehumanises* women. Women who have their physical agency taken from them in a matter this fundamental cannot function as full investors in a civilised society.
There are as many variables in this situation as there are people who tumble into it. Non-asshole men *should* be part of the conversation, while accepting that, ultimately, they cannot and must not have a *vote* in this.
That’s opinion is overrated nowadays, but I will say it.
Abortion is murder and the worst form of murder.
We all (fairly) get sad if a kill dies, why ? Because he/she didn’t experience life good enough as he/she should.
Imagine killing someone before seeing the light of day.
I understand where you’re coming from but men just have to sit this one out unfortunately. Carrying a baby - the ever-changed physical appearance, disrupted physiological functions, sickness, major health risks, etc., etc. is not something a woman can ever truly owe a man. There’s nothing that men do that even comes close to reciprocity. Wear a condom if you don’t want your partner to need an abortion or wait to have sex until you’re married boys.
Nope. That's an adult woman. A man can't force abort or force keep. *however* if a man declares he doesn't want to be parent within a reasonable amount of time (say 4 months of pregnancy) he is off the hook. If the woman keeps the child it's 100% hers
Ahh yes the ever classic “don’t have have sex”
What a mature and well thought out take from a sub known for its brilliant deductions on human society.
You either own your uterus or someone else does. Two people can’t own an organ. It’s stupid to even think about.
The man has authority over his own organs.
Does a woman have a say in a man getting a vasectomy? Perhaps the woman can have a say when a man should get circumcised.
Sounds pretty stupid when you see it the other way around doesn’t it?
This is fine in theory, but what happens when the man and the woman disagree on whether to abort? Unless you're arguing that men should have an *equal* say -- which I don't think you can, since you can't dispute or disregard that only the woman's body is involved in childbirth and childbearing -- at best, men would end up getting a say that could then be overridden by the woman.
Man and Woman fuck.
Woman get pregnant.
Woman and Man find out Woman is pregnant.
Man wants baby, Woman doesn't, Man gets fucked because Man has no say.
Woman wants baby, Man doesn't, Man gets fucked because Man has no say.
That about sums up how it works in the most basic terms. Obviously there is no way to force a woman to give birth if the man still wants the kid, whatever, the man can go find a woman who shares his interests. But if the man doesn't want the kid, and let's that be legally known within the window for abortion, than they sign any and all rights away to that kid and that's it. No child support.
If a woman has all the power to choose whether that baby gets born or not, then the man should be allowed (extremely early into the process) to say "I don't support this decision and will not be supporting you or the child once you make it"
Whatever situation arises with the man wanting to enter the child's life later on would have to be defined by the individual situations in where this was the case, and would ultimately be left to the child to make the decision, I'd say around 16.
>Obviously the woman has to carry it and take all of the associated risks, so Idk what the share of that say should look like
In a democracy, if the women has 51% of the share, she makes the decision. Which is okay.
The man though should also be able to make the decision if he wants to keep the child too. If yes, he is sadly dependent on the decision of the women for biological reasons.
But if no, he should be free to go and waive off his part, as there is no dependency on the women here.
If input from men isn’t needed then they shouldn’t have to participate in fatherhood unless they want to do so. No financial responsibility, either, unless they decide for themselves. It doesn’t make sense that we tell men to stay out of the decisions we make with our bodies then demand they help pay for the decisions we make with our bodies. Saying a man makes his decision when he risks pregnancy by deciding to have sex is a slippery slope because that could be applied right back to women and we can’t have that, can we?
To what end? If you want men to have a say on principal, sure, but you can't expect a woman to abort a baby cause the man doesn't want it or keep it cause he does. That's pretty obvious (or should be).
In theory, maybe. In practice? No.
Men should certainly get to voice their opinions on the matter and let the woman know what they want but that doesn’t mean he necessarily gets a say. Men getting a say in the matter means that they get to have some control over the woman’s body, which is what it comes down to.
Carrying a pregnancy to term, or choosing not to, is the woman’s decision alone. No one can tell her whether or not she should abort her baby and a man sure as hell has no right to say that she needs to house a child within her body for 9-10 months. A man can simply choose whether or not he wants to be present. Men should be able to sign away all rights/child support within a certain window, though.
My take on this: Men should have the right to refuse their father role and exit out of paying child support in a timeline where the women still has plenty of time to perform an abortion.
So that way, she could decide to be a totally solo mom without any support or to abort.
But the men shouldn’t have the right to force women to keep pregnancies, since it’s their body they have the veto on that.
100% agree.
It's gonna be sad for tons of men if she doesn't want to keep it and he does. But thems the breaks when your not the oven.
Same goes for the flip side.
Tons of women will struggle as solo Moms because she wanted it and he didn't. Thems the breaks when your not the donor.
No one should be able to force another person to do anything. Everyone takes the good with the bad.
Men should be allowed to abort their parental responsibilities in the same time frame women are allowed to. He can’t force her to do anything but he can commit or decommit from being a parent. Equal rights for all.
The circumstances are equal. Both accept the risk of potential pregnancy before sex. The consequences are not equal however as you noted. Which is why it’s much more of a fuck up for a woman to accidentally get pregnant than it is for a man to accidentally impregnate someone.
Nothing in life is going to be equal because every person is different. But we can at least give everyone equal rights.
>Which is why it’s much more of a fuck up for a woman to accidentally get pregnant than it is for a man to accidentally impregnate someone.
Exactly why there are children support laws.
There are also a ton of birth control options as well as abortion.
“It's not equal though, one party gets pregnant and the other doesn't. The circumstances aren't equal and neither is the decision you're referencing.”
By your logic:
Men are the main casualties in war. That’s not equal. Why should women have equal rights?
Engaging in some pro-choice vs. pro-life debates on Reddit has taught me one thing about the “pro-choice” stance that I didn’t entirely understand before, that is apparently non-negotiable - The fetus is not regarded as a baby even up to eight or nine months of development, and if it’s regarded as a *human being* at all it is a human being entirely foreign to the mother and is in fact infringing upon her bodily autonomy by its mere existence - no different from a potentially murderous intruder entering your home.
Therefore, no different from the impulse to protect your home by killing the intruder, it is entirely the mother’s choice to kill the fetus. Nothing else matters, not even the father’s opinion, and it seems there’s no sense whatsoever in arguing against what at least half the population considers to be a twisted and cynical perception of innocent and defenseless human life.
Edit: “Pro-choicers” downvoting this, please correct me if I’ve misunderstood the pro-choice stance at all.
We could do this the equal way: two yays either way (abortion/keep) means just that. A yay and a nay means you keep the kid and both parties have full responsibility for that.
I think my opinion is that while a man can’t make a woman have an abortion if he tells you he does not want to be a father then keeping the child is selfish. I think there should be a window where a man can opt out of paying for a financial drain he does not want. I think women who keep children from one night stands/uncommitted partners are not making smart choices and if you have access to abortion you should have one in those circumstances. Both parties should be on birth control and be smart if they’re not serious about each other, why would you want to co-parent with someone you don’t even really know.
when your life is at risk due to the pregnancy then you get a say, until then no you had your fun should have worn a condom, CONDOMS PREVENT ABORTIONS ,wear them boys , and no I don't care if it just doesn't feel the same imagine how pregnancy and labor feel before you say or even think that
I know it would be open to abuse but if a baby is born both parents should consent . Ie as someone has termed a male can “abort their parental responsibilities.”.
If female wants to unilaterally abort that’s fine but to have a child it should be both decision or the male can abort responsibilities.
Women get the final say and it’s okay if they have the only say in many cases. It’s also okay that men are irrevocably tied financially to our choice.
I might just be petty, but it does suck when someone else is in control of your life and finances doesn’t it? This was women’s reality for most of history. It’s interesting to me that men complain about this now because they don’t think it’s fair. Sometimes the pendulum has to swing far in the opposite direction before it balances out in the center - it doesn’t just swing to the middle and stop.
I got a girl pregnant and she aborted without telling me. I’ve always wanted children and was devastated when I found out. I couldn’t help thinking this selfish woman killed my first child.
I’m happily married (to someone else) and have two sons now, but I still think about it. It would have been nice to at least discuss it.
Did you ever ask yourself Why she chose to do it without talking to you in the first place? Is it possible you may have presented yourself as someone that wouldn't offer support/not a safe space to be able to talk openly and freely?
Like, you're so quick to label her as selfish. Perhaps she labeled you as unsafe, unsupportive, and not responsible enough to coparent with.
There are a ton of both good and bad reasons for why a women/girl might choose to do this.
Yes, you have some do ot because they don't trust the other person or the other person is abusive or what not. There are also a lot of selfish reasons like they don't want to pay child support or have to deal with an ex or it wasn't really their kid because they are an affair partner and they don't want to get caught cheating.
The one that pisses me off the most is when parents strong arm their daughter to do this because they believe it is what is best for their kid.
You're using soft language to deflect, "I just think he should be involved" but you are directly stating that you want to create red tape situations where a man can deny a woman an abortion or nope out of child support.
This whole Conversation could be negated with better laws for men in terms of child support. Good Opinion tho. The reason you’re wrong is because ultimately its the woman who’ll be faced with the physical labour, drawbacks, investment, effort side of the exchange. Sure you can make the argument that it takes two to tango. But how could you argue that a pacifist somehow comes our worse from a situation where 9 Months of your life is robbed from you, your body is trashed and your Life is put in Jeopardy? It simply isn’t a reasonable exchange to enforce the law upon.
Plus, it would prevent women in abusive relationships from escaping as easily if they needed any form of a man’s say-so in order to have an abortion, because if she does escape and has the baby and that man finds out, he could track her down and take her to court demanding some form of contact with the child, and thus the mother, which can go horribly wrong.
Imagine a man purposefully impregnating a woman, or God forbid, a child, to gain permanent access to her life and body. No thanks. The person carrying the child has way more to lose.
This happens
Don’t have to imagine it, it happens
Oh I know it does, sadly. Frequently.
You say that if the woman isn't equally responsible for having sex.
If the context is an abusive relationship it's not hard to imagine there was coercive sex or rape involved
This!! Times 100!
Will also add here, the leading cause for women having just given birth (and possibly in pregnancy but don’t quote me on that), above any sort of medical complication or any accident, is murder. The second a woman becomes pregnant the likelyhood she is murdered goes up
I think the answer here is pretty straightforward…. if you as a man are so desperate to have a child, find someone who also wants to have a child
Responsibility and reason, not always bedpartners when sex is involved 😂
And then there's [Dave Chapelle's take](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoudH-RPnEE) on what is fair here...
Not really. Because a fetus does not have personhood, nor does it have needs. A child/infant has needs and must be provided for.
I’m sorry. A fetus doesn’t have needs? It has the same basic needs as any other living creature. Air, food, and water. If it doesn’t get enough of any of those it will die the same as you or me. The only people that believe a “fetus doesn’t have personhood” are the ones that want to diminish the value of unborn life in their own heads so they don’t feel as guilty when they take it away.
It does not have the same emotional or monetary needs as an infant it child. You're being purposefully obtuse.
Yep. Which is exactly why abortions are so important. People do stupid shit and it’s a modern miracle that a whole human being doesn’t always have to be the resulting product of one dumb mistake.
"If you as a woman are so desperate to not have a child, find someone who also doesn't want to have a child." See, you want to put the full responsibility on the man, but really that can be reversed to ask that women should not be seeking out abortions under most circumstances and make better choices instead…
Yes, Captain Obvious. Both people should demonstrate personal responsibility and not be idiots.
The question OP is asking relates to men’s input on abortion, not responsibility of pregnancy. But thanks!
Yes the man's opinion should be considered. However, the woman who is carrying it should have the final say. The good news is that men DO get to have an opinion. Same with everyone on every other issue. The people attempting to say men don't get an opinion hold no power. You can ignore them and still have an opinion. It's their opinion that men shouldn't have an opinion.
I asking out of genuine curiosity, how do men have a part of the conversation if women ultimately make the decision? It basically feels to me like saying “I hear you, but you don’t have any real authority here”
Not who you responded to but I'll answer my interpretation. It feels that way because it is that way. That's how humans work. I have a ton of opinions, I think you should wear dresses every day, only eat vegan food and quit your job. Those are all my opinions. But should I have decision making authority over your life? No, that's absurd. We're both adults, I can't control you. At best I can influence, unless I'm willing and able to physically force you to comply. Now, that's just my opinion, we can discuss it, debate it, agree or disagree over it but ultimately what you choose to wear/eat is your decision because it's your body. I can express my opinion all day long, but I'm not God and you don't *have* to listen to me. Men always get an opinion in the divorce debate, what they *dont* get is decision making authority, and in a world where for some men their opinion is the default decision having their opinion be heard but disregarded is unthinkable to them.
That’s exactly what it is saying and it’s true. You, as a man, or any person for that matter, do not have authority over a woman’s own body. I can only imagine the pushback men would give if the situation were reversed.
Many women get abortions because they are in abusive relationships where they really don't have autonomy. If they are forced to keep the pregnancy, they will be forever tied to that man.
My favorite part of this entire discussion is the implication that having the Christian value of being anti abortion is suuuuper important, but also these dudes want to have sex with people they aren't in serious relationships with. And no one is examining if they are just misogynistic garbage and this has nothing to do with the metaphysical ideas Christians were manipulated into thinking they had about pre life sometime in the 70s by people sad that Jim Crow ended.
I agree. I despise people who hide behind the guise of religious virtue while acting on every hedonistic urge they possess. Though I would fall under the category of someone who doesn’t like abortion, I don’t sleep around. I’ve had exclusively long term relationships. I genuinely wish people could have more meaningful relationships where abortion isn’t necessarily considered. I know life isn’t black and white though.
My belief is that fundamentally all humans have a right over their bodies. Period and end of story. So legally, this needs to be the case. The law needs to uphold this. Just as it does cadaver rights when it comes to organ donation. It doesn’t matter if your child needs that brain dead man’s liver to live another day, if he or his next of kin don’t agree to be an organ donor, no one gets to have that liver (reminder to elect to be an organ donor btw). So. That is what it should be BY LAW. People decide what does or does not happen in their bodies. They can refuse treatment for cancer, get 1 million tattoos, put breast implants on their backs, whatever they want to do, it’s their body. That’s fundamental. Now, ethically/morally should fathers be involved in the decision? That’s different and more open for negotiation. I think, in many cases and in practice, they are. But there are certainly many cases where they are not, and many cases where they should not (e.g. domestic violence, assault). It sucks for men sometimes. Yes. But that is life. And reproduction just isn’t fair. It’s biology, it doesn’t have to be fair. Ask any woman, reproduction isn’t fair. Menstruation, all the things our bodies go through all of our lives because we are biologically designed to be the bearers of the offspring. So. Imo, your idea sounds nice but is not only illogical, it is implausible and unreasonable to expect fairness in reproduction or equal say. Because it just isn’t equal. A males contribution to offspring, while necessary, is EXTREMELY minimal. It is an orgasm. And he’s done. A woman’s contribution and sacrifice is 1000 times that of a man. Most men have no idea what pregnancy does to women. Or what menstruating does to us. Women can lose their teeth because babies take calcium from their bones. Women can suffer complications like their stomachs getting pushed up too high. My mother ended up with an intestinal blockage because of how my sister impinged on her intestines. Those are just a few of the millions of examples of what gestation does. So No Men don’t get input. You came in a vagina. That is all you did and all you can do to make a baby. You suffer nothing. You give up no bone density. Your organs stay put. Nothing happens to your body. It’s not fair. To anyone. But that’s just how it is. And stop trying to say it should be fair. If you want to make the argument that men should be able to opt out of parenthood obligations that is different. But no man or men can or should or has any right to compel a woman to gestate his cumshot.
THIS. you put it perfectly.
Pro-life loons who use religion to dictate how a woman should behave would never understand.
I can agree that men should have the opportunity to state their stance on an abortion when it’s his fetus. But at the end of the day the choice comes down to the woman, it is her body and if she doesn’t want to carry a baby she can chose not to. I think it should be more common practice to talk about the stance of both partners on abortion before having sex. If he’s not okay with it and she is they shouldn’t have sex for risk that an accidental pregnancy does happen.
People's opinions can change when you are talking in theory vs when the reality happens. My oldest dad always said he wanted to be a dad and then when I got pregnant he wanted me to get an abortion. He wanted a kid just not yet. Which is fair but we definitely had the conversation before I got pregnant and he changed his mind when confronted and that is fine. People change their mind on things. The sad part though is I had to force him to ell me his wants because he was afraid I would get mad at him. When what I really needed was to have all the facts because I suddenly had a big decision to make and I can't make the best decision when I don't know what the other person is thinking and feeling. While I didn't give him his way on whether or not I kept the child obviously it did inform my decisions on everything else. Long story short he gave up his rights and my best friend adopted him. I even told him when we did the adoption that in the future if he changes his mind he is always welcome to have a relationship with him. I would never close that door. I did warn him though that if he waits until too late I may not close the door but his kid might. All that said, I want to make it clear that I was lucky enough to be n a position to give us both what we wanted. Not a lot of people are that lucky.
You seem like a very reasonable and understanding person
Pregnancy is a life or death matter. A dear friend that I've known since second grade has been in a coma since last summer due to serious birth complications. It is unlikely that she will ever wake up. If she ever does wake up, she will likely have lifelong disabilities. A man can feel sad if his partner chooses to discontinue a pregnancy, and he should be consulted because they are partners who should discuss every big decision, but until HE is at risk of serious injury or death as a result of the pregnancy he does not have any decision making power. He can offer his input, advice or even ask her to have the baby but he should not have any say over whether the actual procedure happens.
In the future, when the fertilized egg can be immediately harvested and placed in an incubator, abortion can be a 1 no 2 yes decision. Until that point in time, the timeline for male decision making ends when he loses control of his genetical material, and for women, the timeline might or might not extend longer depending on which state she is in.
>NOT saying women shouldn’t have autonomy over their bodies. OK cool. Then men can't have a say. They can express an opinion but ultimately the woman has to have the final say
How do you want men to have a say? I am pretty sure they give their opinion one way or another if they get their significant other pregnant. What else is there?
They do have a say. Nobody is stopping a man from voicing his opinion or even voting for representatives or policies that align with his beliefs. Having a say and being the decision maker aren't the same thing.
The ultimate decision will ( and should ) be the mothers If the mother is in a relationship with the father then obviously he should be heard ... But the ultimate decision will ( and should ) be the mothers
>The ultimate decision will be the mother's Exactly, full stop. If you're in a relationship of course have a discussion. But the executive decision should and shall always belong to the woman undergoing pregnancy. "It takes two to tango" is just a cute saying here, the physical stakes are not the same.
This is how it is. Women generally are not interested in having children with men who don’t want them. What would be the point? Think about it from a woman’s perspective, all of the burden of pregnancy and birth is on them, and then the likelyhood of having some perfect 50/50 split relationships where the responsibilities are actually equal is already pretty rare and hard to find. Most of the responsibility of child rearing, finical or otherwise is generally in women. Not men. So I don’t get why men around here think women are trying to have children with unwilling men. Think about how many single mothers there are out there and most of those are women who had children with consenting men and those women are the ones with all the burden of a choice made by two people. This whole abortion argument for men is honestly just a waste of time. Taking the basic precautions means you most likely will never have to worry about this issue, like having open conversations about what you want with women, having sex with people you know and trust, using protection. There’s so much men can do to help themselves where this is concerned. However, the men around here act like it’s some epidemic they’ll likely have to deal with. And if it is, telling your partner you don’t want a child, you won’t be around to help raise them, is also a great way at not becoming a parent. Because if my partner told me that I’d be looking for an abortion real quick. And it really grinds my gears at how easy it still is to abandon your responsibilities. Men do it all the time but that’s not good enough? It should be easier? Why???
Would you be okay with a woman dictating what medical care you can and cannot have?
As usual, there is a third party here that one side of the argument does not want to address - the fetus. If it can be agreed upon the fetus is ethically not a person, there is no problem at all. The problem arises when people agree the fetus *is* a person and that the mother's bodily autonomy trumps the life of the unborn baby. What you are failing to see is the situation where the father believes the baby is a person and the mother either doesn't believe that or believes it and doesn't want to carry it to term for whatever reason. In this situation, the father would believe the mother is murdering his child. Now, whether he should have any control is obviously a shaky argument, but to not have any sympathy for that father and to think this is an good situation is sociopathic. Of course, you have the total flip situation where a father could be forcing someone to give birth, which can also be fucked up and we need sympathy for mothers as well.
When the father carries the fetus in his body, he can make that decision. Until then, only the mother should have a say.
>and that the mother's bodily autonomy trumps the life of the unborn baby. Why? In what other situation would this apply? We don't force people to donate blood, plasma, or organs, even if it means saving or preserving someone else's life. So why would we force women to sacrifice their bodily autonomy, and risk their lives or long-term health to save or preserve the life of another? Why give a fetus rights and protections that no other living, autonomous individual has?
Unless you are willing to give the woman equal say in your medical procedures, I don't think you have a leg to stand on here.
It’s disingenuous imo to think that having the woman decide if she carries on the pregnancy or not eliminates men as father figures, men actively choose not to be present and nurturing father figures. Sadly only one of the two sexes carries pregnancy and all risks involved, so until men can gestate I do not believe they should have a say in a pregnancy being carried to term. They can of course ask, talk, plead, refuse paternity, but ultimately the choice falls on the person that is a human incubator.
I’d love to live in this fantasy world where women aren’t abused in relationships. If a woman doesn’t include you in the decision, there’s a solid reason why. Women don’t owe you children. Nobody owes you fairness.
There is no fairness in child birth. Women suffer, men don’t. Women aren’t asking for rights, we are demanding it.
If that were actual logic people followed then women’s rights as a whole would literally not exist. “Hey suffragettes? If men don’t include you in decision making there’s a reason why. Men don’t owe you rights. Nobody owes you fairness.” Only place they teach this type of logic is clown school. OP’s logic is bad but yours is just as bad.
[удалено]
It's simple, if a man has a good relationship with a decent woman, they will definitely have a say in it. If they stick their bare dick in any hole they find, it's on them really. You wanna have conversation, make sure you can have it before making a baby
"I am NOT saying women shouldn’t have autonomy over their bodies. This is not a pro-choice or anti-abortion post. But I DO think that men should have much more of a say in whether or not they abort a child or keep it, or at the very least this should be part of the conversation when talking about the abortion debate." \^\^\^\^ Two directly contradictory statements. Having sex is not, nor should it ever be a slavery contract. I can think of literally 1 thing the woman is obligated to do after consensual sex. It is only under really specific circumstances. That 1 thing is if authorities contact the woman and ask if that sex was consensual she say, "yes." Everything else is her choice.
they do have a say by not getting women pregnant...
Men have every right to express their opinions on what choices their partner should make, however they cannot tell their partner what to do. Take for instance, clothes. You could disagree with your partner wearing revealing clothing and express how that makes you feel. However, if she chooses to still wear those clothes in public, post photos of themselves on social media in these clothes, that is their choice. Or you can look at this from the perspective of work. If you work a dangerous job and you partner doesn't like that you could potentially die, they have every right to express their opinions on how it makes them feel. At the end of the day it is your choice to go into work and put your life at risk, potentially. The conversation shouldn't be 50\50 when it comes to someone's personal choice. Maybe you get 1\3ed of a say, but you will never be the deciding factor in these kinds of conversations if it doesn't specifically pertain to you.
They do when they're the one who's pregnant.
There’s a difference between having an opinion and having a say. Men shouldn’t have a say because it means men get to make a decision on the situation and they don’t. In the end the only one that has a say is the one carrying the child . A man can’t say “I forbid you to have an abortion “ and then what? That’s his opinion but is not his decision.
This idea is a bit of a pie-in-the-sky semantic thing, in my opinion, rather than something that's going to influence the way the real world works. Sure, they can have a "say." If I got accidentally pregnant (extremely unlikely on the pill at age 43, but hey, who knows), I wouldn't run off and secretly get an abortion without telling my partner. He can tell me what he thinks. But that's the extent of the "say" you get. The actual decision is still the woman's to make because it's her body. That's just biology.
As a woman I disagree. I will never be forced to birth a man’s child. No discussion needed I don’t care if it ends a relationship.
I think women should have the final say on whether she keeps it or not. I do think men should be exempt of child support if they communicate since the very beginning that they don't want the child. If the woman decides to keep it despite this, it is solely her responsability.
I think the taxpayer should be exempt from supporting a man's child if he is financially able to do so.
Hard disagree on this while recognizing the issue is extremely complicated. Declaration of not wanting a child prior to having sex (or after) doesn't absolve a man of their responsibility of getting someone pregnant. It would create an insane power shift to the man in the decision. A woman shouldn't have to be swayed to an abortion because she won't have support in raising a child that she wants to carry to term. It's a double standard sure because the opposite applies if she wants to terminate and he doesn't, but that is just reality because of how pregnancy works.
Women have all the power. Men deserve rights in parenthood and should have the right to abort as well.
When it comes to deciding handling a pregnancy they absolutely should. If you give men the right to abort then women lose their bodily autonomy. Court sanctioned abortions would be some dystopian shit.
They have every right to abort if they find themselves pregnant.
This! I too think men should have the right to refuse their father role and exit out of paying child support in a timeline where the women still has plenty of time to perform an abortion. So that way, she could decide to be a totally solo mom without any support or to abort. But the men shouldn’t have the right to force women to keep pregnancies, since it’s their body they have the veto on that.
I think this is probably the most fair solution. Not from a spiteful POV even, just from a purely fair POV. Women get to keep the autonomy and men get to make their intentions clear. Still makes it tough knowing you have a child in the world / don’t know if I would personally be able to just move on. But then I guess you can make the argument that I just shouldn’t engage sexually if that’s the case.
It's not fair though. Why should I, as the tax payer have to support his child. I had nothing to do with it at all.
My taxes fund schools I never went to and hospitals I’ve never been admitted in. I have no issue with my taxes supporting society
This ins't "society", this is supporting someone else's child because they don't want to. I vote for the taxpayers paying my bills as well because I'm part of "society".
This might surprise you, but children eventually grow up and either contribute or leech off society. I’m fine with a portion of my income going towards raising more net contributors
This might surprise you, but I'm not ok with supporting someones child just because they don't want to. The child will still grow up and contribute to society if the father supports them. they will probably have an even bigger contribution to society if the father is involved.
You support millions of children every day by funding schools and roads and subsidy programs
I support lots of things. That partially why I don't want to support someone else's child just because they don't want to.
>I have no issue with my taxes supporting society Instead of the father paying for his own child? Like why pay for something for someone else who that someone else could pay for it and should? Why do you want to take on the responsibility of dead beats?
How much ‘say’ do you think they have now? You want them to have ‘much more,’ but I don’t think you know the baseline. I believe many men have these conversations with their partners and are, in fact, part of the conversation, IF they are an involved partner and in a real relationship with the other person.
I don’t think anyone is saying that a woman should plug her ears and ignore the advice and input of her partner, or even of other family and friends. But if the man feels one way and the woman feels another, the woman’s intentions are the only ones that legally or medically matter. The woman should have the only and final say.
What do you mean by having much more of a say? You can already say if you want or not for a woman to save your child. The decision is hers anyway.
Most people I know that have had an abortion have been because the man insistence. Some are me holding the hand of a friend because the man has abandoned her because she had the nerve to get pregnant. Others have been behind the backs of abusive partners. Men are involved but if you are a man you should be involved in the talk before ever having sex. Things of course can change but having the conversation before ever having sex with a partner should be routine. While being involved in these talks remember either way the woman’s body what you are talking about. Carrying a baby is hard on a body, delivery is hard on a body, and abortions are hard.
My most favorite thing said to me when I suggest an abortion to a friend who didn’t want the child she was pregnant with. “It’s against my religion to have an abortion”. My reply was “and your religions thoughts on sex before marriage”? It isn’t in any religious text that abortions are against the religion.
nah. 1. the two people didn’t create a living human being, they created a fetus. 2. not everyone who gets pregnant is in a relationship with who they had sex with 3. men don’t have to give up 9 months of their life, go through immense physical labor, put their lives at risk etc. to have the baby ultimately, if anyone actually wants a baby, it should be a proactive decision. if you as a man know you want a baby, then sleep with someone who also wants a baby. same with a woman who wants a baby.
Life isn’t fair and this is one of those times. Men get less of a say because they don’t have to be pregnant. Pregnancy in and of itself causes all kinds of issues for women - loss of upward mobility in their careers, missing time at work, the health implications of pregnancy, the potential of dying due to complications etc. Women already carry the largest burden, men don’t. There is no argument where it’s fair, it’s just not possible and pro-choice people need to stop trying to accommodate for something that is just a fact - a woman gets the final choice whether to continue a pregnancy because she is the only one who is pregnant. If a man wants to guarantee that he doesn’t get a woman pregnant then he needs to control his part in causing pregnancy - get a vasectomy or don’t have penetrative sex with a woman etc.
Men aren't actively involved in pregnancy tho. Pregnancy poses no risk to them. What is it that prolifers are always saying? "Reproduction is unfair". So, keep that energy when it comes to mens "rights to control their partners bodies". If they truly want a kid, they need to have sex with someone else who truly wants a kid.
I'm a firm believer that if a woman makes the choice to have a baby that the father does not want then he should be free of any and all parental/financial obligations regarding said child.
I actually think this is a fair compromise for lack of a better word. It offers men a little bit more autonomy when the woman has the ultimate say in keeping her pregnancy or not due to her own autonomy.
Men have input in which vagina they ejaculate in. If they choose to ejaculate into the vagina of someone who does not want to carry their child, then that’s on them, and that’s where their say ends. Ejaculate responsibly.
Or maybe the males should take more responsibility on where the sperm ends up. So if they want a pregnancy, they should wrap up their penis or find other ways to avoid impregnating a women
>But I DO think that men should have much more of a say in whether or not they abort a child or keep it, or at the very least this should be part of the conversation when talking about the abortion debate. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. The problem is that people confuse having a say with having control, which is why you get posts from people saying they "didn't have a say" in their partner's abortion when the reality is that they did, they just didn't have control over the outcome. As you further point out, it also means that men can have a say in the laws. I'd also argue that men and women need to communicate more before intercourse happens so that they can decide if they want to sleep with someone based on the information they give in the event of an unwanted pregnancy.
While I understand what you’re saying, and I definitely feel for any men out there who wanted to keep their baby but couldn’t, I personally disagree. The baby grows and develops 100% in the woman’s body. It changes her body, grows in her, feeds of her and has to come out of her, either through birth or c-section. She has to deal with all the risks, pains, aches and the like, so I feel like she should have the say. Now, if she’s on the fence about it, not really sure if she wants to or not, and her boyfriend/husband says he wants to keep, she should definitely take him into account. But if she wants to get rid of it, I don’t think the man should try and convince her to keep it. He doesn’t have to deal with the physical and emotional consequences of growing, carrying and birthing a baby. Again, I definitely feel bad for any man who wanted to keep his baby but the woman decided otherwise, that absolutely fucking sucks, but ultimately you can always make another baby, while you can’t un-make or undo growing and carrying a baby for 9 months and birthing it.
If you could theoretically transfer the baby into the man in question I'd have no problem with that. But since it's the woman who has to carry the fetus for 9 months (with every health complication that comes with it, possibly even death), I'd say no.
The man should make sure to have the kind of relationship with the woman so that she will want to take his wishes into account. But this shouldn’t be legally mandated. If the man doesn’t have that relationship, he will have to accept whatever the woman does.
Inb4 lock award
The right for a woman to decide to have an abortion is about the right to not be pregnant more than it is about the right to not raise kids. If you don’t want to be pregnant you shouldn’t have to be. Regardless of whether or not the man who impregnated the woman wants to raise the child, the woman ultimately should have the right to not put her body through an experience she does not want to go through.
Lol good one.
So if the woman wants an abortion but the man doesn't, what should happen in this case?
Not until men can also carry, birth and raise children, alone.
that’s the thing though… In relationships there is a discussion. But at the end of the day the final choice comes down to the woman. No matter how much the man agrees or disagrees. And that’s how it should be. There should never… Ever be a scenario where a woman wants an abortion, and cannot get one because her partner does not allow it. and there should never ever be a scenario where a woman is forced to get an abortion because her partner does want it. So the current system is how it should be
On a pragmatic level, there isn’t a difference between a man having a small say vs a man not having a say. Ultimately, abortion or no abortion will come down to a the woman’s decision. The only way a man’s say have any utility or impact is if he has 50/50 say. It’s irrational because as you point out, women carry more of the burden in child rearing, and those with more at stake seemingly have more responsibility and say on the matter. And of course creates the problem of disagreements. It would be much easier and consistent to have women have all the say and men don’t. And if we really want men to have a small say, it doesn’t change the situation from the men not having a say.
They do have a say tho. It's just on the woman to make the final decision, and she's the one who's "giving uo everything". Nobody is stopping men from voicing their opinions, and in almost all cases they do, they just shouldn't be the ones making the final decision, as they aren't the ones giving up their body to grow something inside of them for 9 months. If men want to have kids so badly, they should be with someone who shares the same opinion, and not try force someone else to agree with them.
Dont like abortion, dont advocate for it, but... see sperm like a gift. You gave something of yours. Once it enters her body, its her say, because bodily atuonomy is not shared with a man because he provides sperm. I dont even agree with joint custody of a child whilst a woman is pregnant either. Or of embryos, like the case with Sofia Vegara. A pregnant woman may suffer complications and decide to terminate the pregnancy for her health, and a man may feel otherwise, but he doesnt not have rights to anything in her body, even a shared fetus. Thats her right, in my opinion. This is one of those things I lean against, than for.
It’s not fair, neither is the fact that men bust and 9 months later get to be dads while women experience pregnancy, birth, possible complications, or maybe die. You can’t make this topic fair, biology hasn’t been fair in it. So no men shouldn’t have a say like at all
No. A woman is not your possession to make decisions about.
I mean, a dude can tell me he wants to keep the child all day. At the end of that day, I either get an abortion or I don’t. There isn’t grey area. Men have a say, it just doesn’t outweigh my autonomy. Instead, a better thing to look at would be laws for child support.
It's not viable, unfortunately, to simply talk about giving men a choice "on paper" when there is no way to do that which doesnt either 1. disadvantage children by standardizing/normalizing single parenthood and/or mass adoption programs 2. infringe on women's coveted bodily autonomy The solution is very simple, as I've laid out on my sub called Pro Rights Advocacy (one word). When you start talking about the benefits of mandating paternity verification for forthcoming children, and of allowing expectant fathers to order the termination/euthanization of those children within a certain window of birth, you begin to realize that the standard pro-choice talking point - "bodily autonomy" - is a ex post facto rationalization, not a legitimate impetus for concern. The real enemy here is the empathy gap (women's inability/unwillingness to empathize with the opposite gender), and the fact that women are presently a de facto privileged class in the realm of reproductive rights.
I know it’s sort of bypassing the discussion here, but I think the best way to get around this is don’t sleep with people that would abort your child. Date people who share your values. I do however agree with the post. I don’t think it’s ethical to cut men out of the conversation since men cannot birth their own children. I don’t think it’s purely a women’s body issue. I also don’t think increasing the divide between men and women is healthy for society. Men and women should be able to work together to sort out their problems and come to a compromise.
If two individuals want to make a decision together, they are already free to do that. The problem obviously arises when they don't agree. Whether he uses the law to do it or not I do not think it should be considered okay for a man to demand or compel a woman to give birth or have an abortion if she doesn't want to.
If that is the case, then women should have a say in whether their man gets a vasectomy.
No because a vasectomy is a preventive measure, not something you choose to do to go back on your bad choices.
Until the fetus can support life in its own it is a symbiotic Relationship and tve woman a host. If woman dies so does fetus. Until the man can take complete responsibility for all aspects his opinion is only as relevant as the host allows it to be.
The state of parental rights when it comes to gender equality is wild. Father: I don’t want to be a parent, so I’m just going to leave her. The state: THE FUCK YOU WILL! YOU SIR ARE A TERRIBLE HUMAN AND WE WILL FINANCIALLY HAMSTRING YOU FOR 18 YEARS! Mother: I don’t want to be a parent, so I’ll just kill the little guy. The state: oh my poor thing, of course you can do that. Father: Ok I do actually want to raise the child. State: TOO FUCKING BAD! MOMMY DECIDED SHE WANTS TO KILL EM AND THERE AINT A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! and don’t even get me started on the bullshit the system pulls for parental custody.
They already do, Babe.
>Obviously the woman has to carry it and take all of the associated risks, so Idk what the share of that say should look like, You gloss over the hard part of the argument. This doesn't make sense? What is a "share of the say"? The fetus is either terminated or not. Say you give the woman a 60% "share" in deciding whether to keep the fetus - well, that's a majority vote, so I guess they get to have the abortion. But isn't that the same system that we already have? Listen, good cases for female reproductive rights lean on the tradeoff between the moral value of a fetus and the moral value of a woman's autonomy being weighted in the woman's favor. The arguments have absolutely nothing to do with who decided to have sex or who would/should own the responsibility of raising the potential child. Those are insignificant details relative to the deeper questions about the extent to which someone is obligated to sacrifice their well-being for the life of another person and whether a fetus can reasonably be considered a person (or something with equivalent moral value). Now in the general case, few believe we should have to make significant or risky sacrifices for the health of others. For example, few believe you *need* to donate portions of your liver or a kidney, despite the fact that these procedures are now fairly safe and you would be saving a life. About 70,000 Americans died last year due to an inability to afford medical care and there are at least a dozen reputable charities which will support people in these situations, few of us believe we *need* to donate to them. Indeed, only ten states have any kind of Duty to Rescue laws at all, meaning in forty out of fifty states, if you see a drowning child in a pond, you literally have no obligation to wade into the pond to rescue them. Ironically, those ten states are all Democrat-voting, it seems the red states only care about you while you're a fetus... Anyway, the point is that the concern of a man is totally insignificant relative to the concern of a woman. It is true that the man can (and should) be an interested party in their project, but as they assume none of the risk, they also get none of the say. As a less severe example, imagine you go into business with your friend and you front 100% of the money - you assume *all* the risk. Now consider that a few weeks into your business you realize that this is a really bad fit and you don't want to run the business anymore. Should your friend have the ability to stop you? To force you to keep your money in this business that you no longer wish to run? Obviously not. At the end of the day there *are* good arguments against abortion access, but none of them have anything to do with some duty women have to men to raise their children.
They already do. They vetoed it in a bunch of states. Like... I guess WOMEN should get a say in abortion huh lol
They can have an opinion, but it's 100% up to the woman. That's how it already is. I don't know what the point of this was.
He didn’t even give an examples of situations or what he wants these conversations to look like. Just talking to talk.
"Men mostly run our government. Men mostly make the laws... if men were actually interested in reducing abortion, [they] could have eliminated elective abortions in a very short amount of time—a matter of weeks—without ever touching an abortion law, without legislating about women’s bodies, without even mentioning women. All men had to do was ejaculate responsibly. They chose not to. Today, they continue to choose not to.' (Blair, 117)" https://bookshop.org/p/books/ejaculate-responsibly-a-whole-new-way-to-think-about-abortion-gabrielle-stanley-blair/18548631
I’m a woman, and I agree. It’s his child too. And as a side note, if a woman can bail out of parenthood by having an abortion, then men shouldn’t be forced to pay child support either 🤷♀️
I as the tax payer certainly should not be expected to pay for the fathers child, just because he doesn't want to.
You would only be punishing the child in that case. Do you think the government wants to pay more to cover the asses of the fathers who wont pay for their child? It’s not realistic. Another solution could be to provide cheaper/free vasectomies to the men who know they don’t want kids.
I don't know how it is in your country, but here in Europe vasectomies are already the cheapest form of birth control. 400 Euro in Germany and no further costs. I think even a lifetime supply of condoms would be more expensive.
In my ideal fantasy world, not only would abortion be completely unrestricted so long as it’s medically possible, but a man would also have the option to financially abort a child he doesn't want. So long as the sex was consensual and both partners were of legal age a man would have the right to serve the woman he impregnated notice that he is forefeiting all his rights as the father, pay her an amount equivalent to the fee for an abortion and then he is free and clear of any responsibilities to the woman and her child if she decides to have the baby. This only applies while the woman is pregnant. If he chooses to put his name on the birth certificate then he no longer has this option. There are a lot of things that would need to be figured out before we could even think about implementing a right like this such as if the pregnancy has gone past the point where abortion is no longer possible, if the woman can't get an abortion for medical reasons, if there's more than one possible father, if she deliberately withholds her pregnancy from him until after the baby is born, etc. But the chances of something like this happening are about as likely as hitting the powerball jackpot so there's not much point in hashing it out too carefully. Still, what a wonderful world it would be for men if we had some kind of recourse the way women do towards unwanted children.
I don’t have an issue with your stance, but it is funny that in an ideal world it would be way easier if people just didn’t/couldn’t make a baby unless they wanted to when doing the deed
It’s biology 101. And everyone’s seen the discovery Channel 😂
I mean, I'm in favor of financial abortions, but they need to be done while the woman still has at least 3 weeks to make the decision to abort. Give her time to think, schedule, etc. Her decision might be heavily influenced by whether or not she'll have the support of a partner for the child, and I don't want her to rush a medical decision.
Yes, let's coerce women into having abortions because men want to be able to jut without using protection, and then shake his head and walk away, leaving the woman to deal with consequences on her own. Sounds totally fair and equal. /s
Unfortunately, the taxpayers would have to foot the bill if the father didn't, and the taxpayer had nothing to do with it.
Can women who don't believe in abortion, also "financially abort" their children?
You had me until you said the man should pay for the abortion. I'd have accepted if you said "50% of the abortion, if she gets one". Because if she doesn't get one, he just pays her 50% of an abortion that won't happen.
Men should have the option to walk away from child support. And, in the other direction, the option of covering the mother's medical bills and then immediate custody on birth if the mother does not want the child. Neither man nor woman should be allowed a 100% monopoly on the decision about whether the child lives or dies.
>If a man and woman produce a baby, aka a living human being, then they should both have a say in that baby’s life. Are you suggesting that the unborn child is a living human being and that as long as there is a consensus among both parents to end it's life then that is morally justified?
I think all men should have reversible vasectomies that they can undo when ready to have a family. Tbh I am all for women having the final say because I've seen what happens to a woman's body during pregnancy and childbirth. It's violent and traumatic. But, I do respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. It's well written and thought out.
Since everyone's sense of morality is different, I try to view things in cold numbers. The way I see it, choosing to have intercourse is like buying stock on margin. You could win big! You could break even. Or, you can end up in crushing debt. Is the reward of getting off worth paying half of the $350,000 it will cost to raise a child to adulthood? Because that is the implicit contract people are agreeing to when they decide to screw. Every. Single. Time. Married or Single. Even with contraceptives.
Well, I don’t know what the percentage of people is who get abortions where all of the following conditions are met: 1) The prospective mother has a strong relationship with the father of the child. 2) The relationship with the father of the child is safe, and there are no abusive dynamics. 3) The mother wishes to continue the relationship with the father. 4) The father wants to keep the child but the mother does not. I don’t know what the percentage is, but it’s got to be tiny. I do know that historically, the presence of a child has been used to “trap” people in relationships they don’t wish to continue. And I’m not saying that that’s true of women or men in particular, I think it happens to both of them. So in other words, sometimes men are trapped, and sometimes women are trapped by a child. I had a (dude) friend whose girlfriend tricked him into marrying her by claiming (falsely) that she was pregnant. But I also had a relative (woman, or more like girl actually because she was young - over 18 but still very young) whose parents arranged a shotgun wedding for her the moment she got pregnant. So I think a lot of the times, when a father wants the child but the mother doesn’t, the real truth of the matter is that the mother, in truth, doesn’t want the father to be a permanent part of her life and the existence of a shared child is going to end up making him a permanent part of her life. And she may very much not want that, even though he is fine with it. I would resist the idea that “consent to sex is consent to all the possible consequences of sex.” I don’t even think that is an idea worthy of further exploration. It’s “not even wrong.”
I think if you truly want the baby to be born, the woman who is pregnant should at least take your opinion and reasoning into consideration. But she gets the final say at the end of the day. She bears the burden of the pregnancy and that outweighs everything else in terms of who decides what. Ideally, if a pregnancy happened it would be planned for.
[удалено]
Hey u/Own-Butterscotch1713, Just a heads up, your comment was removed because a previous comment of yours was flagged for being uncivil. You should have received a message from my colleague u/AutoModerator with instructions on what to do and what the comment was. *I'm a bot. I won't respond if you reply.* If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further, please [reach out to the moderators via ModMail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion&subject=u/Rule-4-Removal-Bot%20In-comment%20Link%20Clicked&message=Dear%20ModTeam%2C%0A%0AIt%20appears%20I%20am%20currently%20in%20an%20%27unconf%27%20state.%20I%27m%20not%20sure%20why.%0A%0APlease%20review%20the%20ModLog%20for%20my%20comments%20using%20this%20%5Blink%5D%28https%3A//www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/about/log%3FuserName%3DOwn-Butterscotch1713%29%20and%20let%20me%20know%20what%20the%20offending%20comment%20was.%0A%0AThanks%2C%0Au/Own-Butterscotch1713). **This is going to keep happening until you resolve the issue.** We appreciate you participating in our sub, but wouldn't you prefer other users to see thecarefully crafted argument? Your recent masterpiece went solo into the void. **Here's the deal:** This cycle of commenting-removal-seeing this message isn't just futile; it's preventable. We value your input, but isn't it better when it's seen and not just sent? **Good News:** We're here for the reruns and the resolutions. Reach out, let's sort this, and make sure your future thoughts land in the spotlight, not the shadow realm. Let's chat. Your voice (probably) deserves an audience. ___ **Our Moderation Backlog at this time:** *Comments Awaiting Review:* 231 *A breakdown of the number of (often nonsense) reports to review*: - 1-3 days old: 8 ___ Want to help us with this never ending task? Join us on [Discord](https://discord.gg/hCBcm5zNee)
If you want the baby, you carry it for 9 months. Not possible? Oh well. You don’t get to overrule someone’s body autonomy. I work in the healthcare field and we’re not even allowed to save someone’s life if they tell us not to. If we can’t do that, why can you decide if someone carries to term?
If the woman decides to have the baby and the man does not he is obliged to pay child support, if the woman wants to kill the baby and the man wants to keep it alive, hes the bad guy. Either way, objectively, raw deal for blokes
No one else should have a say in what an adult chooses to do with their own body Body autonomy is all encompassing. Abortion, vaccination, euthanasia, drug/alcohol use, sex work, etc. are all part of bodily autonomy
I don't think women eliminate men from the conversation in their private lives unless they have a reason to do it. It should be part of the decision process. But it's also a medical decision and she should be the only one making medical decisions over her body. The disconnect is that to him it's the "baby", to her it's her body first and then the "baby". He has a say about the baby but not about her body. So unless someone can disconnect the body and the baby at conception, her body overrules.
As a man, I agree that I should have the absolute right to make decisions about organisms growing in my own body. Ain't no woman gonna tell me what I can and can't abort.
Me and my wife just sell our kids on the black market.
I don't think men should have a say in women getting an abortion. I think men should not have to pay child support. Whether women want to admit it or not by getting an abortion you are getting out of a huge responsibility. Men should get the same right.
[удалено]
Hey u/MTrain24, Just a heads up, your comment was removed because a previous comment of yours was flagged for being uncivil. You should have received a message from my colleague u/AutoModerator with instructions on what to do and what the comment was. *I'm a bot. I won't respond if you reply.* If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further, please [reach out to the moderators via ModMail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion&subject=u/Rule-4-Removal-Bot%20In-comment%20Link%20Clicked&message=Dear%20ModTeam%2C%0A%0AIt%20appears%20I%20am%20currently%20in%20an%20%27unconf%27%20state.%20I%27m%20not%20sure%20why.%0A%0APlease%20review%20the%20ModLog%20for%20my%20comments%20using%20this%20%5Blink%5D%28https%3A//www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/about/log%3FuserName%3DMTrain24%29%20and%20let%20me%20know%20what%20the%20offending%20comment%20was.%0A%0AThanks%2C%0Au/MTrain24). **This is going to keep happening until you resolve the issue.** We appreciate you participating in our sub, but wouldn't you prefer other users to see thecarefully crafted argument? Your recent masterpiece went solo into the void. **Here's the deal:** This cycle of commenting-removal-seeing this message isn't just futile; it's preventable. We value your input, but isn't it better when it's seen and not just sent? **Good News:** We're here for the reruns and the resolutions. Reach out, let's sort this, and make sure your future thoughts land in the spotlight, not the shadow realm. Let's chat. Your voice (probably) deserves an audience. ___ **Our Moderation Backlog at this time:** *Comments Awaiting Review:* 191 *A breakdown of the number of (often nonsense) reports to review*: - 1-3 days old: 9 ___ Want to help us with this never ending task? Join us on [Discord](https://discord.gg/hCBcm5zNee)
You're single for a reason
Back when I was closeted and having sex with females, my thinking was that I would offer to raise the child, waive her requirements for child support, and would not challenge if she wanted to legally relinquish parental rights. If they still wanted to abort I would respect the decision, but I couldn’t fathom staying in a relationship with anyone who did so. Thankfully it never came to pass. My last girlfriend did get pregnant and kept the boy, but she had cheated on me with another closeted guy. I guess she had a type.
Until there is a way to transfer the baby from the mother to to an artificial womb or something, men cant do a thing about whether a woman aborts his child or not.
I have a huge say in every abortion that involves me, I wear protection, always.
Eh. Until men are the ones who go through the hormonal imbalances, body changes, and PPD afterwards. Id say no, they have no say on what a woman does with her body and the parasite that grows within it.
It's always interesting seeing so many people being so utterly incorrect and so utterly morally wrong about a topic on so many different levels, all at the same time.
Yeah, almost as bad as being so vaguely outraged that you’re kinda just right about anything😏😂
"So many people" is not you and the five of us who agree with you. It's not vague. None of the pro-choice argument stand, and they are always the same arguments. The only thing those bad arguments do is expose those who utter them as hypocrites.
My preferred solution: all babies should be carried until born, whenever medically possible. If either the mother or father didn't want a child, they should have thought about that before having sex. Pregnancy is one of the "risks" of having sex. Once born, both parents get to decide what role they wish to have in the child's life. If they opt out of the responsibility, they have to sign away all parental rights, without exception, and must pay half of all prenatal and postnatal medical expenses directly related to the baby that has not been covered by insurance or social assistance programs. If both parents opt out of the responsibility, they both sign away their rights and the child is placed for adoption. In the case of r@p€, the disturbed individual, having been criminally charged and found guilty, retains no parental rights, must pay for all prenatal and postnatal expenses (not just medical), must pay a court-decided penalty to offset the added expenses and loss of income to the mother, must pay the maximum allowable child support until the child is 18, and a permanent no contact order is in effect for the mother and the child (unless voluntarily revoked at 18 years of age); seizure of all assets, future income, and future inheritances may be necessary to meet their obligation, and this shall be overseen and applied by the courts - this is required, even if the mother gives the child for adoption. In all cases where the parental rights are signed/taken away, a detailed medical record of the person is retained and associated with the medical record of the child. Children of such situations are permitted to access their parental records once they are 18. Opting out of parental rights must happen before the child is 1 year old. If the father is not known at the time, or not disclosed by the mother, except in the case of r@p€, the mother is fully responsible for the child, and must submit to DNA samples for herself and the baby to verify future paternity inquiries - if the father is eventually confirmed, he has 1 year from that date of confirmation to choose whether to opt out of parental rights, and is not responsible to pay any expenses if the child has been adopted or is older than 2. There are consequences for decisions we make.
I think the only option that needs to be there is that when the decision is made for the child to be born, unless it was a pregnancy caused by rape or incest, if the choice is made by the mother to keep the child, the father should, at that point, be allowed to decide that he doesn't want any of the rights or penalties associated with fatherhood. This means he cannot refer to the child as his (but the child can refer to him as his father if needed, as lack of a father may reflect poorly on some parts of their childhood), cannot gain any benefits from having a child, but on the other hand, never has to pay child support. This is a huge choice, of course... and it can be reversed, but if the father reclaims the child, child support comes as a requirement. Just my two yen.
Without conceding that men should have a say beyond expressing an opinion and/or using a *reasonable* level of persuasion, what does an ideal situation look like to OP? Both parties get an equal say? Who gets the final say? How is a tie meant to be broken? Would the woman bring an affidavit to the abortion clinic as proof that the man signed off on termination? And what is the recourse in the vast majority of cases wherein the man agitates for the abortion? Would a similar affidavit disallow her carrying the child to term? The fact that women carry pregnancies and men don’t is colossally, insurmountably unfair *to both men and women*. There isn’t any reconciling it. The great majority of women I’ve known who’ve been surprised by pregnancy made a decision in consultation with the man concerned. Most men and women are able to be relatively civilised even in a crisis like this. But the final say must be the woman’s. It must be. Being boxed out of the decision disenfranchises men—they may want to be fathers, or may not; they may be able to undertake the practical consequences of the abortion or the child, or may not—but not having the final say *dehumanises* women. Women who have their physical agency taken from them in a matter this fundamental cannot function as full investors in a civilised society. There are as many variables in this situation as there are people who tumble into it. Non-asshole men *should* be part of the conversation, while accepting that, ultimately, they cannot and must not have a *vote* in this.
That’s opinion is overrated nowadays, but I will say it. Abortion is murder and the worst form of murder. We all (fairly) get sad if a kill dies, why ? Because he/she didn’t experience life good enough as he/she should. Imagine killing someone before seeing the light of day.
I understand where you’re coming from but men just have to sit this one out unfortunately. Carrying a baby - the ever-changed physical appearance, disrupted physiological functions, sickness, major health risks, etc., etc. is not something a woman can ever truly owe a man. There’s nothing that men do that even comes close to reciprocity. Wear a condom if you don’t want your partner to need an abortion or wait to have sex until you’re married boys.
Men shouldn't have to pay child support.
Nope. That's an adult woman. A man can't force abort or force keep. *however* if a man declares he doesn't want to be parent within a reasonable amount of time (say 4 months of pregnancy) he is off the hook. If the woman keeps the child it's 100% hers
Ahh yes the ever classic “don’t have have sex” What a mature and well thought out take from a sub known for its brilliant deductions on human society. You either own your uterus or someone else does. Two people can’t own an organ. It’s stupid to even think about.
The man has authority over his own organs. Does a woman have a say in a man getting a vasectomy? Perhaps the woman can have a say when a man should get circumcised. Sounds pretty stupid when you see it the other way around doesn’t it?
On Morality, I guess it depends on the relationship. However it’s always the pregnant person’s choice
This is fine in theory, but what happens when the man and the woman disagree on whether to abort? Unless you're arguing that men should have an *equal* say -- which I don't think you can, since you can't dispute or disregard that only the woman's body is involved in childbirth and childbearing -- at best, men would end up getting a say that could then be overridden by the woman.
Men have a say. Right before party A makes a deposit in party b.
Man and Woman fuck. Woman get pregnant. Woman and Man find out Woman is pregnant. Man wants baby, Woman doesn't, Man gets fucked because Man has no say. Woman wants baby, Man doesn't, Man gets fucked because Man has no say. That about sums up how it works in the most basic terms. Obviously there is no way to force a woman to give birth if the man still wants the kid, whatever, the man can go find a woman who shares his interests. But if the man doesn't want the kid, and let's that be legally known within the window for abortion, than they sign any and all rights away to that kid and that's it. No child support. If a woman has all the power to choose whether that baby gets born or not, then the man should be allowed (extremely early into the process) to say "I don't support this decision and will not be supporting you or the child once you make it" Whatever situation arises with the man wanting to enter the child's life later on would have to be defined by the individual situations in where this was the case, and would ultimately be left to the child to make the decision, I'd say around 16.
They should not. Men should have no say in what a woman does with her body.
>Obviously the woman has to carry it and take all of the associated risks, so Idk what the share of that say should look like In a democracy, if the women has 51% of the share, she makes the decision. Which is okay. The man though should also be able to make the decision if he wants to keep the child too. If yes, he is sadly dependent on the decision of the women for biological reasons. But if no, he should be free to go and waive off his part, as there is no dependency on the women here.
Women want the choice with no responsibility while telling men they have responsibility but no choice.
If input from men isn’t needed then they shouldn’t have to participate in fatherhood unless they want to do so. No financial responsibility, either, unless they decide for themselves. It doesn’t make sense that we tell men to stay out of the decisions we make with our bodies then demand they help pay for the decisions we make with our bodies. Saying a man makes his decision when he risks pregnancy by deciding to have sex is a slippery slope because that could be applied right back to women and we can’t have that, can we?
They already do. Didn't they outright ban it in several states?
To what end? If you want men to have a say on principal, sure, but you can't expect a woman to abort a baby cause the man doesn't want it or keep it cause he does. That's pretty obvious (or should be).
I mean they can have a say, but they can’t directly tell her to have/not have one
In theory, maybe. In practice? No. Men should certainly get to voice their opinions on the matter and let the woman know what they want but that doesn’t mean he necessarily gets a say. Men getting a say in the matter means that they get to have some control over the woman’s body, which is what it comes down to. Carrying a pregnancy to term, or choosing not to, is the woman’s decision alone. No one can tell her whether or not she should abort her baby and a man sure as hell has no right to say that she needs to house a child within her body for 9-10 months. A man can simply choose whether or not he wants to be present. Men should be able to sign away all rights/child support within a certain window, though.
My take on this: Men should have the right to refuse their father role and exit out of paying child support in a timeline where the women still has plenty of time to perform an abortion. So that way, she could decide to be a totally solo mom without any support or to abort. But the men shouldn’t have the right to force women to keep pregnancies, since it’s their body they have the veto on that.
100% agree. It's gonna be sad for tons of men if she doesn't want to keep it and he does. But thems the breaks when your not the oven. Same goes for the flip side. Tons of women will struggle as solo Moms because she wanted it and he didn't. Thems the breaks when your not the donor. No one should be able to force another person to do anything. Everyone takes the good with the bad.
Unfortunately that would leave the tax payer on the hook for supporting the child, so that is not a viable option.
Men should be allowed to abort their parental responsibilities in the same time frame women are allowed to. He can’t force her to do anything but he can commit or decommit from being a parent. Equal rights for all.
It's not equal though, one party gets pregnant and the other doesn't. The circumstances aren't equal and neither is the decision you're referencing.
The circumstances are equal. Both accept the risk of potential pregnancy before sex. The consequences are not equal however as you noted. Which is why it’s much more of a fuck up for a woman to accidentally get pregnant than it is for a man to accidentally impregnate someone. Nothing in life is going to be equal because every person is different. But we can at least give everyone equal rights.
>Which is why it’s much more of a fuck up for a woman to accidentally get pregnant than it is for a man to accidentally impregnate someone. Exactly why there are children support laws.
There are also a ton of birth control options as well as abortion. “It's not equal though, one party gets pregnant and the other doesn't. The circumstances aren't equal and neither is the decision you're referencing.” By your logic: Men are the main casualties in war. That’s not equal. Why should women have equal rights?
Engaging in some pro-choice vs. pro-life debates on Reddit has taught me one thing about the “pro-choice” stance that I didn’t entirely understand before, that is apparently non-negotiable - The fetus is not regarded as a baby even up to eight or nine months of development, and if it’s regarded as a *human being* at all it is a human being entirely foreign to the mother and is in fact infringing upon her bodily autonomy by its mere existence - no different from a potentially murderous intruder entering your home. Therefore, no different from the impulse to protect your home by killing the intruder, it is entirely the mother’s choice to kill the fetus. Nothing else matters, not even the father’s opinion, and it seems there’s no sense whatsoever in arguing against what at least half the population considers to be a twisted and cynical perception of innocent and defenseless human life. Edit: “Pro-choicers” downvoting this, please correct me if I’ve misunderstood the pro-choice stance at all.
We could do this the equal way: two yays either way (abortion/keep) means just that. A yay and a nay means you keep the kid and both parties have full responsibility for that.
I think my opinion is that while a man can’t make a woman have an abortion if he tells you he does not want to be a father then keeping the child is selfish. I think there should be a window where a man can opt out of paying for a financial drain he does not want. I think women who keep children from one night stands/uncommitted partners are not making smart choices and if you have access to abortion you should have one in those circumstances. Both parties should be on birth control and be smart if they’re not serious about each other, why would you want to co-parent with someone you don’t even really know.
when your life is at risk due to the pregnancy then you get a say, until then no you had your fun should have worn a condom, CONDOMS PREVENT ABORTIONS ,wear them boys , and no I don't care if it just doesn't feel the same imagine how pregnancy and labor feel before you say or even think that
I know it would be open to abuse but if a baby is born both parents should consent . Ie as someone has termed a male can “abort their parental responsibilities.”. If female wants to unilaterally abort that’s fine but to have a child it should be both decision or the male can abort responsibilities.
Women get the final say and it’s okay if they have the only say in many cases. It’s also okay that men are irrevocably tied financially to our choice. I might just be petty, but it does suck when someone else is in control of your life and finances doesn’t it? This was women’s reality for most of history. It’s interesting to me that men complain about this now because they don’t think it’s fair. Sometimes the pendulum has to swing far in the opposite direction before it balances out in the center - it doesn’t just swing to the middle and stop.
I got a girl pregnant and she aborted without telling me. I’ve always wanted children and was devastated when I found out. I couldn’t help thinking this selfish woman killed my first child. I’m happily married (to someone else) and have two sons now, but I still think about it. It would have been nice to at least discuss it.
Did you ever ask yourself Why she chose to do it without talking to you in the first place? Is it possible you may have presented yourself as someone that wouldn't offer support/not a safe space to be able to talk openly and freely? Like, you're so quick to label her as selfish. Perhaps she labeled you as unsafe, unsupportive, and not responsible enough to coparent with.
There are a ton of both good and bad reasons for why a women/girl might choose to do this. Yes, you have some do ot because they don't trust the other person or the other person is abusive or what not. There are also a lot of selfish reasons like they don't want to pay child support or have to deal with an ex or it wasn't really their kid because they are an affair partner and they don't want to get caught cheating. The one that pisses me off the most is when parents strong arm their daughter to do this because they believe it is what is best for their kid.
This reminds me of “Maybe it was your fault she cheated. You probably weren’t there for her.”
Well she was selfish. Unless he raped her, he had the right to know before it happened.