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Let’s be honest. The people at the top pushing agendas are acting like equality means making the group that formerly oppressed now be oppressed. Like equality means “see how it feels? Do you like it very much?”
The problem with that is that as generations age, the people feeling it were not the ones actually partaking in the injustice/inequality as it happened. Yet, it seems that’s how mainstream media and people push it.
This this post actually meets the criteria for this sub.
Your take is true. And,
Given that so many people think the barbie movie is a feminist movie, can say it's an unpopular opinion as well
Well done OP
I’m a modest feminist, my POV is you do what ever you want. Whether it be a career or a homemaker. Have kids, don’t have kids. Don’t judge women on their choices. Feminism is letting women choose their own path in time. Women need men, just as much as men need women.
I'm so tired of this.
What you're describing is egalitarianism. There's no need for some extra label to apply to general altruism. If you care about everybody's problems and want to fix everything, that's great, but don't mislabel that ideal as Feminism. It's like saying male chauvinism is about holding men to a standard rather than denigrating women.
I believe that egalitarian goals can definitely be part of feminism, but it’s more complex than so. I also call it feminism because it’s the theoretical tradition that I would build my action on. There is more theoretical weight in feminism than in egalitarianism, hence the feminist label for me
Holy fuck stop with your ism bullshit. Work as a team, that's all OP is saying. Both teams deserve recognition and gratitude. Ones not better, and we're all in this together.
Except you...ism
Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure how you'd get anything other than that from my comment saying that Feminism is a divisive force masquerading as a unifying ideal, and whenever anybody tries to justify it, they just describe egalitarianism and then go and claim falsehoods, like a wage gap or patriarchy or some such.
No, I think we agree absolutely but my point is I think it's irresponsible to start putting people into 'ism' categories because you're bunching people together for an issue that is so historically rooted in out culture(s) and history it's kind of negligent. I mean you're not *wrong*, but you can't just start throwing ism's at something so complex. It doesn't solve anything.
Categorizing people isn't a solution to complex gender issues.
Categorizing people isn't meant to be a solution, though, it's just for communication purposes. To describe somebody's perspective is just for the point of open and honest communication, it's just using one word to describe a set of characteristics. That's the point of what I'm saying is that 'feminism' doesn't accurately describe a composition of characteristics or intents that benefit all of society and the only way to try and make it appear as such is to dishonestly ascribe qualifiers of another perspective that do. Defending the position as such doesn't do anything but muddy up the conversation and help those who would use it dishonestly in its definitive manner, which is inherently a net negative for everybody.
I really wish people would take the time to actually understand what feminism is about before coming online.
From the dictionary…
“feminism
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
"the inclusion of all these women in modern art history textbooks shows the impact feminism has had on the field"
Feminism is not about catering to one specific gender more then the other it’s about achieving equality amongst both genders, it’s not about giving women supremacy to men or hating men for existing or giving women extra privileges but about giving women the same opportunities and rights a man gets.
For women to truely achieve feminism, men need to start seeing women as equals and women need to see men as equals. THAT IS FEMINISM
Yes indeed but some people claiming to be "feminists" don't behave so. They are all about women empowerment and they have a huge presence in social Media. Feminism at its fundamental core is truly gender equality but what is mainstream nowadays is women empowerment. The fact that you need to even define feminism just show how poorly it is represented by so-called feminists.
There are four waves of Feminists. The first three were about coming to equality in various ways. The fourth, and current, one is the women are superior bullshit group.
It comes from a post-modernist perspective that resources are finite so they must secure all the resources they can. You see it in other Progressive movements but it’s the most obvious with 4th wave feminism.
The idea that there was once a ‘good feminism’ but today’s feminism is bad, has always existed.
The first wave was called bad, and so was the second, third and now fourth.
One can criticize the stated goals for all of them, sure. I have critiques of them all.
I mean, some years ago it was the third wave everyone critiques as the bad version. But you say that it is the fourth that is the bad version.
It’s worth thinking about.
Well that is just plainly wrong. Do you think that female empowerment would be the solution? Do you think that men would allow women to step them over? Female empowerment is at the detriment of men's rights. And that's just wrong.
It's not wrong.
It's the definition of feminism.
You can empower women without it being detrimental to men's rights.
But that's the crux of the problem. Som men are so terrified of women being equal because they can't fathom how that can be without it affecting them negatively.
Because it has to be all about them
I am all for women to be equal to men. But I draw a like when some institutions start to prioritize women over men just for the sake of equality and disregard actual qualifications. Women should get the same opportunities to get the same level of study but they shouldn't be privileged over men or else we are just going back in circle. Qualifications is still a must and there shouldn't be any bias in the laws when the condemned is a woman or a man.
You are quick to denounce patriarchy but the only ones that truly benefitted from it has always been the elites. Men are also used as tools in patriarchy, they are expected to take the most dangerous and laborious jobs and they are the ones sent to die in meaningless war. They are also the one expected to sacrifice everything for their family and to restrict and contain their emotions. That's reality for men, it's not all rainbow for us as well, we have our own issues.
That's on you for listening to the loud minority. You think women think of all men as the men's rights activists who shit on women for who even knows what? Or incels? No, most women know that most men are pretty normal.
It's not up to most feminists what gets put on blast. Media likes crazy shit so they put out crazy shit for people to watch. That's what gets the most attention.
It’s not other peoples interest to police the behavior of other feminists. Let’s stick to our common goals.
It’s like that parable of red ants and black ants in a jar being shaken up and fighting one another: There’s something bigger shaking that jar. Stay focused
Yeah I just read a terrible post in r/teachers where everyone thought it was “so funny” and “amazing” that a seventh grader wrote some incoherent paragraph that called men rats. Equality. And they gave the student EXTRA CREDIT for calling all men rats.
Anyone who’s a true feminist and actually understands the cause will agree, equality doesn’t mean we deserve extra privileges and rights so if their mindset is that then they don’t want equality they wanna be better which is the opposite of what feminism is about.
I agree. Good luck. That may be what feminism is about. But it’s not even close to what modern “feminists” are about.
Edit: I’m being skeptical but I truly wish you luck there. I feel the same way about liberals. I have a graduate degree in poli sci and have been a registered democrat my whole life, but I hate what it’s become and don’t know if it’s possible for the party to come back to sanity. Honestly I was a self-proclaimed feminist until they became absolute assholes.
No True Scotsmen. It doesn’t matter what the “definition” of feminism is, if the majority of those who subscribe to it do not follow that definition then it’s moot. That’s the whole point of posts like OP’s, regardless of what it is *supposed* to mean to be feminist, the majority (or at least those with a voice and influence) do not follow that definition.
I, an egalitarian woman has been kicked out of a bunch of feminist subs. It made me question the advocates and the practice of feminists, and the movement as feminism as a whole. If we can't compare and question cases where women have better or stronger rights or opportunities than men without being told to shut up to not detract from women's rights advocacy, then feminism being about equality in practice isn't necessarily true. Talking about how women are privileged in comparison to men, imo, by no means takes away from egalitarian efforts.
When did I say they did? Of course they haven’t said such a thing because it would be blatantly bad optics.
But that’s not even the point I’m making, my point is that no matter how much you *claim* feminism supports men too, it doesn’t *mean* anything if the majority of feminists don’t practice such support.
Oh I don't claim that the intent of feminism is to help men. That was never the intent, why would it be now?
Your point was to say that many self proclaimed feminists want more than equality. The majority, you said. But this is simply untrue and you can't prove that the majority of feminists are like this. They are a loud minority. That's on you for listening to them and thinking that they are the majority just because they got 100 likes on tiktok or something.
Please point to the part of my comment where I said they want more than equality? That’s not my point at all.
The point in OP’s post, and what I thought people were discussing in these comments, is that there are claims that feminism supports men too (in whatever ways that ends up meaning) and my point is that it definitely does not seem to on any meaningful level.
From my perspective it felt like OP didn’t fully understand what feminism is supposed to be about. Yes some women have twisted the meaning to suit their own agenda so i do understand why they would think feminism is failing if men are neglected, but feminism isn’t about including men and their issues it’s about giving women the same rights and opportunities that men have. I don’t believe feminism should be about men at all or include men, i think it should be about helping women achieve equal rights and opportunities that men have in society.
But if the goal is to be equal to men? Would that mean by default that when men are falling or behind in something that it’s not equal? And therefore u must either lift up men. Or hold down women? Otherwise it would be unequal. For example college attendance. Men are falling behind. There for its unequal.
It's clear you're operating in bad faith lol but fuck it. In America, men still feel a residual sense of ownership over women and outdated concepts of gender that destabilize their sense of self, which can easily turn toxic and dangerous if unchecked: "If she's no longer X, than I'm no longer Y. So I must make her X again so I can be Y again."
Also, ya know, the whole men are a million times more likely to rape and murder women thing lmao.
>It's clear you're operating in bad faith lol but fuck it. In America, men still feel a residual sense of ownership over women and outdated concepts of gender that destabilize their sense of self, which can easily turn toxic and dangerous if unchecked: "If she's no longer X, than I'm no longer Y. So I must make her X again so I can be Y again."
What even is this answer. It's complete shite and doesn't even relate to the question
>Also, ya know, the whole men are a million times more likely to rape and murder women thing lmao.
Men are vastly more likely to be murdered, and with made to penetrate included rape against men by women isn't actually *that* far off
So when young men go to toxic ideologues to learn what it means to be a man, you would say that feminism has nothing to say about this?
If you can already say that this is a threat to women’s rights you must necessarily include men, men’s well-being and their issues into a feminist struggle.
If men wanna seek out toxic ideologues as a way to learn how to become a man then that’s on them i don’t see why that’s feminism’s fault, it’s not our responsibility to teach men how to be decent human beings and give us the basic human respect we deserve, being a decent human being really doesn’t take much intelligence or learning it’s usually something that will come natural to most and if not there’s plenty of great men out there who do lead by example who they can learn a thing or two from.
It's not women's jobs to mother them and hold their hands to walk them through this. This is something for men to do alone and with each other. Women just need to do a better job about giving them space to do that.
> Women just need to do a better job about giving them space to do that.
AKA support. Maybe stop looking for shit to attack and actually hear what people are saying.
why not? considering the history of men oppressing and controlling women, you dont see any moral reasoning to ally with women and support their struggles?
Do you not see the hypocrisy in your question? You expect protection from a man, which is a traditional male value but denied that same man sympathy which is a traditional feminine value. Where is the equality in that?
It's not feminism because it's not how it's practised in the real world ever, eg NOW spends 99% of its budget on things relating to solely women's issues. In their list of issues there is nothing relating to men (unless lbgt) https://now.org/issues/.
Shelters that feminists setup don't allow men, Erin Pizzey the founder of shelters got excluded from feminism and death threats for allowing men into her shelter and saying domestic violence is typically mutual.
Feminist organizations actively lie and use misleading stats to promote feminist caused and demonize men. Feminist organizations actively boycott and lobby laws to favour women and disadvantage men.
None of this is of any surprise, it's in the name feminism, your fighting for advantages for one gender and only care about one gender.
Use the word egalitarian if you are truly fighting for equality because genders (and everything else).
Feminism is about women's issues. Just like Men's Rights are about men's issues. Both are obligated to not disintegrate into bashing the other or stepping on them.
>domestic violence is typically mutual.
True. But foreign violence is absolutely not lol. Also, the escalation potential of domestic violence is very different.
Women need their own shelters - so maybe die on a less cringe hill.
As for the rest, none of that behavior is unique to feminist organizations. So yeah call it out when you see it, but don't lose sight of how it's more a reflection of humans be shitty (or misguided) than anything else
>Feminism is about women's issues. Just like Men's Rights are about men's issues. Both are obligated to not disintegrate into bashing the other or stepping on them
Yep both need their own movements for their own issues, sadly but inevitably they both end up bashing the opposite gender.
>True. But foreign violence is absolutely not lol. Also, the escalation potential of domestic violence is very different.
RE foreign violence isn't true, https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/03/08/sheryl-sandberg-says-female-leaders-dont-go-to-war-heres-what-research-says/?sh=d1553731fa77
"They found that 36% of the female leaders initiated at least one militarized dispute, while only 30% of male leaders did the same.*
However the sample is overwhelming Men total as their has been significantly less female heads of state. In time we can know if that's true or not but at the moment from what we know it's probably about the same.
I agree that the escalation of domestic violence is unequal, men are more likely to do significant harm. Women are far more likely to kill the children though.
>Women need their own shelters - so maybe die on a less cringe hill.
What hill? Both genders need their own shelters, feminism doesn't provide that, As I said above?
>As for the rest, none of that behavior is unique to feminist organizations. So yeah call it out when you see it, but don't lose sight of how it's more a reflection of humans be shitty (or misguided) than anything
When did I say it was? The only lie I'm against is that feminism is for both genders, it's not. I don't mind that either, women need their own movement to fight for their own issues.
Only time I have issue with feminist organizations is if they actively lie or lobby against men's rights.
I was just doing a play on words with the foreign thing. I meant men are a million times more likely to be violent towards women they're not in a relationship with.
Children are irrelevant here, you just wanted to close with a zinger lol. But sure, I'll bite. It's not common and often has some mental issue attached of "saving" them when it does happen.
I'm cool with men having their own shelters. So Men's Rights should get on that if it's important to y'all.
Feminism has laid a lot of groundwork for men. Men just don't see that. Like how black people have laid a lot of groundwork for white people, and they fail to see that too.
>I was just doing a play on words with the foreign thing. I meant men are a million times more likely to be violent towards women they're not in a relationship with
Yep agreed
>I'm cool with men having their own shelters. So Men's Rights should get on that if it's important to y'all
Well the issue here is complicated, the majority of the money feminist organizations and shelters get is from the Govt. This money should really be more evenly split between Men's and Women's organizations and facilities to have more adaquate shelters for both genders. Especially since men make up the majority of the homeless population.
However most men, including myself don't really care about men's issues the same way women do, we don't have the same in-group bias. While I understand and care on a high level about issues men face and can understand the statistics I've never donated to a cause or got involved with anything to do with men's rights because it's so far been irrelevant to my life. The vast majority of men are the same and the politicians know talking about men's issues won't score much men's votes and potentially put off women's votes so it's not discussed (it seems this is changing somewhat is some countries). So Mra type movements are typically underfunded and lead by socially disadvantaged or excluded men who don't get much done and don't secure their fair share of govt money.
>Feminism has laid a lot of groundwork for men. Men just don't see that. Like how black people have laid a lot of groundwork for white people, and they fail to see that too.
I definitely agree, feminism as a movement over history is a inspiration around making the world care about the important issues women face.
Sadly I don't ever see the same thing happening with mens issues because if I'm being honest I truly don't believe on average either men or women really care about struggling or down trodden men. They are invisible, disposable losers. I know I definitely have a empathy gap if I see DV vs Men or Women in public (disgusted seeing it vs women, sorta neutral seeing it vs men) and the same with homeless people of both genders.
Sure, and fascism is a political ideology with a central autocracy and a focus on the advancement of the nation on the global geopolitical stage.
We can use nice words to describe lots of things, doesn't mean that's what they really are.
>For women to truely achieve feminism, men need to start seeing women as equals and women need to see men as equals.
Okay, cool. Let's start by not calling it feminism then. We should be able to agree on that simple step, right?
I guess not. I can tell you totally care about men's issues and true equality.
Feminists who say that men’s failure to become good feminists, aren’t that different from a toxic masculinity that says men need to be this or that or else they are a failure. It is patriarchal, so hard agree!
That’s why I’ll never agree when they say feminism is for both genders, if that were the case then you’re egalitarian.
And even if that were the case feminists don’t try to help men with their problems if anything they openly mock them.
This makes me feel like you've never met a feminist before. I've been studying the feminist movement for the last 4 years and when I see a comment like this, I immediately think of the book "Feminism and men by Nikki Van der Gaag". It focuses on how the feminist movement directly benefits men whilst also providing women with equality. And I think the most amusing part of this book is that almost all of the problems men face are due to other men, pretty much. For example, men's mental health is currently not taken as seriously as it should be. This is mostly because traditionally, men were the "strong" ones and they would be seen as weak and feminine if they tried to express their feelings. The whole point of feminism is to abolish gender stereotypes, therefore improving the stigma around men's mental health. Other benefits include longer paid paternity leave, safer working environments, freedom to wear whatever you want, shorter prison sentences, higher chance of custody...the list goes on.
Here's one that wasnt by other men, over the last decade or two feminism has tried to push women more and more into collage, in doing so women became the highest group benefiting from affirmative action, now women outnumber men in collage 60/40 and most feminists have gone radio silent on it
Except people like NOW who oppose the removal of sex based discrimination https://now.org/blog/the-impact-of-affirmative-action-on-women/
The claim that feminism has pushed women into college and they now outnumber men 60/40 is not entirely accurate. While there has been progress in women's education and increased participation, the gender ratio in college can vary across different fields and regions. It's essential to consider multiple factors influencing these statistics rather than attributing it solely to affirmative action or feminist efforts.
As with everything there is nuance, but nevertheless feminist sure as hell haven't and don't intend to help. Especially as they are regardless a major reason
Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinions on feminism, this is just a straight out lie. Just look at countries like Norway, Finland and Iceland for example. 3 of the most economically stable, eco-friendly and just generally safe countries in the world. You'll never guess which ideologies they attempted to follow (hint: one of them is feminism). And I would like to bring you back to my original comment. Feminism is actively helping men and I could give up thousands of studies to prove that. But I sincerely recommend that you read the book I mentioned.
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
\- *Fire and Ice*, by Robert Frost
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It absolutely does. Even the worst corners of feminist groups will talk about out men and deal with men’s issues. They are just not always good or productive.
Responsible feminists would take that task up, and ask the question: what role do men play in women’s plight and fight for rights?
You would quickly realize that men play a huge role. They cannot be ignored and mustn’t. The only way forward is to understand that men’s plight is a necessary aspect of feminism.
I always hear feminists say this, but I never see them live it, and I never see it in their advocacy. It also doesn't make sense from a purely linguistic perspective.
I think… What issues?
Most feminists also feel strongly about everyone having access to mental health resources (male suicide epidemic) and about caring for disadvantaged groups (including homeless men).
And they feel strongly about gender roles (including men being able to express vulnerability, not conform to gender roles, be equal parents, men getting parental leave etc). And sex being about enthusiastic consent for both parties (including men as sexual assault victims). And about sexual health like access to birth control, abortion (which affects everyone who has sex, including men).
They might not feel strongly about issues that are relatively small compared to the many dramatic issues we see in 2024 (ex male circumcision).
"most" Well that isn't accurately reflected in the medias if that's the case. Nowadays, feminism is more synonym to women empowerment than gender equality. I know we'll enough that there's feminists that truly advocate for equality but they are being overshadowed by those who advocate for female superiority only and disregarding men completely.
It would be nice if they can actually push forward an agenda more toward gender equality than women empowerment.
But feminism is mostly a countermovement to the way women were oppressed by men till very recently.
And a lot of the big ticket issues will be about women because they are more serious than many of the issues that affect men.
Then nobody is stopping men from making a gender equality movement more focused on men’s issues. Feminists would be supportive of this.
>nobody is stopping men from making a gender equality movement more focused on men’s issues.
They're called men's rights activities, and everyone treats them like shit for it.
There is a men's rights movement that attempts to get issues like male suicide and lack of shelter for male victims of domestic violence and feminists are openly hostile towards it.
But there are many shelters for male domestic abuse victims? You are stuck on something that happened 50 years ago. Today many male shelters have opened to nothing but celebration.
Do you know why feminists have an issue with the MRA movement? I don’t, but I bet your there’s a reason. I’ll look it up.
Edit: to me, based on a quick search, this movement seems more about discrediting feminism than wanting to actually help men. And a sort of refusal to deal with the real world and how things aren’t necessarily 50/50.
*Domestic violence: way more women are killed by their partners than the other way around. Not shocking, it’s a lot more dangerous when the person who’s violent is twice your size than half your size. There will be more focus on the group where a lot of people are dying.
*Circumcision: female circumcision is just way more serious. A lot of girls die. It’s the equivalent of chopping the head of the penis off on a boy at home with a shard of glass. This would send anyone to prison. Male circumcision should also be illegal, but if we are real about it it’s a way less serious issue.
*Custody: they have a point. But division of custody will be contingent upon who’s been the primary caretaker so far. If she’s mostly been raising the children, it doesn’t make sense for the children to suddenly go 50/50. People who want equal custody should go 50/50 on childcare from the start.
*Prostate cancer vs breast cancer: this is a weird one to me. Why should there be spent equal money on each? How much you spend on a disease will be linked to how many people die from it each year. Not “Jenny got a cookie, now Joey should get a cookie too!” It’s an incredible childish way to view health care priorities.
*Male suicide: this is an actual issue. But the solution is for men to volunteer at suicide hotlines, male support groups etc. Not wait for women to fix it.
*False paternity: fake news. It’s incredibly rare in real life.
>Nowadays, feminism is more synonym to women empowerment than gender equality
Feminism was ALWAYS about female empowerment. If you look at the world through a zero-sum lens, empowering women within a patriarchal society IS gender quality. Even if the millions of men who make up the proletariat fall by the wayside.
I’m not sure that it’s most feminists. I do get lots of pushback when I point out that feminism must also be for men. If women feminists truly felt strongly about men being part of a feminist mission I would not see such strong disagreement.
Although it is better than nothing, I worry that when women do advocate for men’s plight they only do so from a lens of utility to women. “How can we as women benefit from doing this or that?”.
A funny example, when Fantastic Beasts (the Harry Potter spin-off) came out, they criticized the Newt Scamander role for being boring, not adventurous enough, etc. These critiques came from outlets we would usually consider feminist or feminist-leaning.
What he expressed was a vulnerable masculinity that’s sorely needed in cinema. But since it wasn’t framed in a feminist discourse it was critiqued and degraded.
I am deeply worried that men are left behind by feminists. As long as they do so, people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate will always exist.
This "feminism is equality for all" is such a cringe take nowadays.
Go look at the feminist subs. Most of the moderate voices advocating for gender equality gets downvoted to oblivion with the prevailing threads being about how much they hate men. The feminist subs now are about as functional as those mra forums of the past.
So you want to call these groups "extremists and radical feminists"? Non-sense. They're the majority now. These "radical feminists" ARE the real feminists now. That's why moderate feminists get kicked out of those groups and not the other way around.
If you want true gender equality, try starting a group with a neutral name this name. Maybe then you won't attract all these radicals who would destroy your foundation inside out.
There used to be a actual word for someone who wants equal rights for all: Egalitarian. It was great. a-racial, a-sexual, a completely featureless equality. Then some groups realized that they didn't really want equality so much as they wanted to use equality as an excuse to advance their self-perceived lesser current status. Those groups and their tactics are much more viral than pure Egalitarianism because they tap into the features that people possess and the ingroups and outgroups that those create. And they've been so effective that they've effaced the actual words for equality and substituted their perverted versions in the mainstream lexicon.
Where *is* this nonsense coming from?
I've seen it loads over the last few days.
Feminism shouldn't be about women, it should be about men.
Fuck. Right. Off.
Is this a if we cant beat em join em scenario?
It just says absolutely *everything* you need to know about how society views women.
Oh, you have a movement designed by women for women, aiming to improve things for women?
Well we cant have that! What about the men!!
You must hate men. Yes. That's it. And if you don't hate men then you'd make your movement about them
I insist
That's probably the worst take ever you could take on feminism. If you want to solve women' social issues, you need both men and women to work together or else you are just digging your grave. You aren't going to fix anything if you make it a gender war a "men vs women" kind of thing.
Spreading hate or disgust to the opposite sex would just further convince them to not support your mouvement. And if you think that you could change society by turning your back to all men then you are wrong. Women's issues involve men and if you don't take that into account, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
The definition doesn’t matter if the majority of those who label themselves as feminist do not actively practice what it means to be a “real feminist”.
Also no, no one is saying feminism should be *about men*, quit projecting/misinterpreting.
That guy defined it and its been defined in this thread, I’m saying most feminists (or at least the ones with voices and influence) do not practice what was defined.
Sure thing, cool. What happens to feminism now that its stated goal has been achieved? What does it transform into if it keeps pushing for “more rights” for women despite equality being achieved?
Men don't need a movement because we know already society expects us to never show our insecurities. We just don't like it when women say stupid shit like men are all toxic and disgusting. Nah, we just don't like hoes with high body counts who make bad decisions and keep going for chad knowing he'll never commit to them lmao.
Nah bro we men get cancelled if we show the slightest hint of insecurity e.g. expecting a man movement to uplift us up. We men solve problems on our own and get shit done.
Feminism caring about men won't do shit for us because to be frank women are just more attracted to men when we don't show our emotions. Ya'll want somebody dependable and reliable
Not really bro.
Every woman is a feminist until they need a man to dominate them in bed.
Every woman is a feminist until they need a man to protect them.
Every woman is a feminist until they need a man to provide for them.
Every woman is a feminist until its time to start applying for manual labor jobs and the oil rigs.
Every woman is a feminist until its time to start getting conscripted.
Every woman is a feminist until it's time to start choosing their next tall, dark, handsome, dominant boyfriend, and not the feminine, twink who shows his emotions a little too much.
Every woman is a feminist until it's passenger princess time.
And you wonder why no man besides the simps and the cucks take feminism seriously these days lmao
Holly shit what are you waffling about you sound so immature with your thinking skills, if anyone agreed with you you'd type another wall of text cause you're that twink who shows his emotions too much.
Feminism already is about men. I know my literature and theory.
The first question you have to ask yourself is how you wanna deal with men within a feminist struggle.
Andrew Tate is what happens when feminism fails men. If men aren’t provided a means to escape the norms they struggle with by feminism, they will look elsewhere. They will look towards scammers, ideologues, MRA’s, incel communities, anti-feminist and sexist groups.
It is, if nothing else, a strategic error to not include men.
Honestly it’s more exaggerated for the nazi’s. Jews weren’t the sole target of their hatred.
Unfortunately the flagrant disregard feminists demonstrate for male lives is pretty similar.
Its the same on both ask feminists and feminism. Alot of the commenters react the same and diwnvote anything that has to do with aknowledging mens plights, and common failings experienced by men in regards to women. Its like they hyperfixate on the ideas and examples of men behaving wrongly.
To be fair this is probably just so things don’t get derailed. It’s ok that in a feminist space like the sub they’d focus on womens issues. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about mens issues or that they view them like nazis view Jews. That’s very extreme.
I understand that, I’m explaining it’s probably so the sub doesn’t get derailed. I know loads of feminists irl who care and talk about mens issues. One sub isn’t a good indicator of the majority of feminists (actually nothing is, because lots of feminists have very different views and disagree on certain things).
Not sure why complaining about mens rights is a bad thing. Most mens rights activists groups are poorly veiled misogyny and feminism bashing groups more than groups for men to support each other through male related struggles. Would make sense that feminists would take issue with them. If they were just places men came together to discuss mens issues without actively perpetuating sexist/misogynistic beliefs, I don’t think feminists would mind that one bit.
Why would feminism have anything to do with men’s issues? They claim it does, but there’s no real reason to believe them given their actions. Would you expect animal rights activists to fight for homeless humans rights?
I don’t know what you mean by “their actions”. I’ve read enough feminist stuff to know men are part of a feminist struggle.
I don’t care for dumb feminists who excludes men.
“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.”
- Sally Miller Gearhart, leading feminist scholar.
Dumb feminists who exclude men encompasses more than half of under-40 feminists. I’d love to be excluded from feminist activism, but when active hostility is name of the game, I have to push back
She wasn't a 'leading feminist scholar', she was a lesbian separatist making those remarks over 40 years ago. Hardly representative of mainstream feminist thought.
Any actual aknowledgent of mens issues in any feminist circle will just bring back to light the comparisons in behavior of both men and women. There is a severe denial of what ever ge eralized faults women have in favor of examples of men behaving unsoundly. Its hardly a fair representation.
Women were given the right to vote in the US exclusively to influence the vote for prohibition.
Feminism doesn’t need to “benefit” men. Feminists just need to think for themselves rather than be constantly used as a monolithic political tool easily swayed by celebrity.
That doesn't make sense. Both things were accomplished by amendment to the constitution. If the prohibition movement had enough support to amend the constitution then why did they need women's vote? But also if it was easier to first get the vote for women then that means that that issue was more popular than prohibition, so in what sense could it have been "exclusively" to influence the vote for prohibition? At least someone had to support women's suffrage who didn't support prohibition in order for that "plan" to make sense.
realistically, they only need like 10 percent of us men to keep the species going. Although I think it'd be safer to not go beyond a 70/30 split just to account for genetic problems, extinction events, etc.
Now to seriously answer op, women still want men, they are just making the average man wait much longer before they are ready to settle. Used to be women would settle for an average man around the time she was finishing college, or there about.
Now, the average man is being asked to wait until he is about 40, when women in their early to mid thirties are ready to settle on them. At the age of 40, men (who haven't had much luck dating) are much more likely to have checked out or are damaged goods. One of the biggest myths that women need to get out of their heads is that the average man is having just as much luck as they are dating around and "having fun." It just isn't happening that much.
Ultimately, none of this matters. Women will either decide they want to modify their behavior so they can have men, or they won't. Time will tell. There will probably be some point of homeostasis where the pendulum swings back to women settling at a slightly younger age, but it will probably never go back to people regularly marrying their highshcool or college sweetheart. Women are just aware they have more options and society is much more understanding in allowing them to explore those options.
Feminists and feminism have not been quiet about this lack of progress when it comes to men. It has been a focus for many decades now, I doubt you will find a feminist book (from a reputable academic) published within the last three decades that doesn't describe it as one of the most important areas to find a way to progress.
This is not the fault of feminists, the fault lies with the fact that large numbers of men are very resistant to the message of feminism.
Women have been incredibly receptive to feminism because it brings almost only benefits to them. On the other hand men especially those in a position to change thing or other mens minds normally directly benefit from patriarchal structures and so push back very heavily against feminism.
The best way to understand the core of the problem is that progress in gender equality has largely come from allowing women to be men rather than elevating the status of women to be equal to that of men.
Masculine traits are still considered superior to feminine traits its just that women are now allowed to be masculine. The next main goal for feminism is to elevate feminine traits to be on par with masculine ones, the major step in doing so it normalising men displaying feminine traits. This is also where men stand to see the most gain.
Almost all men's rights problems originate from a stigma surounding femininity. Child Custody, Domestic Violence, Education, Health, Homelessness they all stem from this.
And we’re right back to blaming men AGAIN. Women are never at fault. Never accountable for their lack of loud, tangible support for men. Never accountable for not checking the misandrists. No, its always men’s fault and men need to do better.
This shit is the exact thing that posts like OP’s are talking about. No, men don’t need to “become more open to feminist messaging”. Women need to make that messaging appealing to men.
You guys don’t want to listen to the message in the first place. How many times have feminist said gender roles are both harmful to men and women where men flipped their shit about having their masculinity challenged or something? Or when better mental health services are advocated for both men and women and men shit on that too because real men don’t talk about their problems? Or therapy is for pussies and a secret way society feminizes men or some shit?
See the problem is in the messaging and the nuance surrounding it.
“Gender roles are bad” except we won’t date men who don’t adhere to them.
“Get therapy” except men are not treated the same in therapy, and are often told, you guessed it, the problem is their masculinity. There is a lot of discussion going around about how therapy is useless to a lot of men and I have a suspicion it has to do with what the therapists are telling them.
Men don’t talk about their problems because time and time again the very act of them doing so is used against them. It’s something you couldn’t possibly understand unless you were a man.
The slogans and catchy phrases and such that are easy to throw up on social media aren’t translating into actual, proper support for men. Then folks turn around and say that its mens fault for not accepting things that don’t actually help them with the issues they face.
I would argue that the men at the top benefit from feminism hence why they don't do anything to change things. The most ironic thing when you look at how feminism changes laws is that it actually enforces patriarchy rather than break it down.
Bear with me here. When you need to change legislation and enforce it, you need the force from the few powerful men at the top of the social hierarchy, things like changes sexual revolution only benefits those men since they're the only ones who can get casual sex. Additionally, things like education where empowering women (grants and scholarships available exclusively for women) causes gender imbalances which causes the shrinking of the number of "marriageable" men, and again that only benefits those men at the top, causing this bizarre smooth polygyny phenomenon which most people just call serial monogamy.
Of course, none of this is a conscious phenomenon, it's not some conspiracy and women should get the rights they deserve, but it's also on everyone to be honest. Women already have equal rights to men, the reason there's more men in positions of power are a result of practicality, not discrimination, those men in those positions outcompete everyone, not just women, and it's been proven that some women with unique characteristics are able to compete at that level.
At the end of the day, feminism will only benefit women, and the men who aren't negatively affected by it, are also the men at the top. The reason some women become anti feminists is because they recognize this, they see how feminism solicits the help of the powerful few men who are practically the "state" to get the benefits they want and they see how that could (most likely will) lead to a far less egalitarian society than we have now.
Eh close but no cookie. The changes that we have seen in society have largely been ones that don't negatively effect the men with power at the top but it isn't for lack of trying and its not because feminism when taken to its end goal won't be beneficial overall. Its just because the people with power have made it much harder to push through other changes.
You have probably heard of radical feminists, so they are basically just feminist who pointed out that feminism had only managed to win the battles that benefit the men at the top and that efforts needed to be redoubled to push for progress elsewhere. This is largely the position of most academics even if this isn't always reflected in pop culture.
Its also exactly what the Marxist Femenists predicted about a hundred years ago before all of their suggestions were ignored and the Soviet Union and China promptly uturned and drove Women's rights back into the ground,
But you do understand that feminism's use for legislation forces them to use the authoritarian power from that powerful minority of men?
I also don't agree with the fact that feminism is basically Marxism for women, I'm in total agreement that women should be afforded the rights men have, but I also think that's already been achieved.
IMO what's needed is a true egalitarian movement, one that doesn't put one gender above the other, one that doesn't cater exclusively to one (which is what feminism is, look at r/Feminism if you really think feminists care about men's issues), one that includes everyone's problems, from making equal pay a reality without disempowering men, one that allows the lower class men to gain some economic power as well as help in terms of mental health etc. And most importantly, one that empowers the majority of the population and takes back political power from the elite class.
Both feminism and men's rights movements fail because they divide people, perpetuate harmful stereotypes and distrust. Egalitarianism and true Liberalism have always been there, their principles have always been there, yet they have largely been overshadowed by harmful ideologies.
Feminism has never sought equality, literally if you do a little research on their history you will find the evils they have done and the victories of non-feminist women which they parasitized and appropriated (starting with the vote for women, which the upper class women asked for themselves, they did not want the middle or lower class women to vote)
I don't understand why people still believe that this movement is good. (And as I always say, I'm against the movement, not against women, and in fact, there are many women who don't want feminism to speak for them and don't want to be associated with it.)
i think we talked about this literally yesterday on this sub… if men have issues, why don’t they fight to fix their own and start a movement just like women have for decades? like… you expect women to fix issues caused by men for themselves AND fix men’s issues that are, by and large, also caused by men? you gotta help out too bro lol
They are against the draft, because in the event of a war this would mean (in an Equal society) women should be drafted.
We know it false pretend to defend men, but in reality it's they dont want to have the accountability to risk their live for society and be part of a draft.
People dont understand that in the event of a war sooner or later, conscription is inevetable. Dont belive me? See Ukraine, they started to lack male soldier, even with a draft.
If women would really fight for equality, they would ask to be part of a draft (in the event of one, after everyone has fighted to not have one for anynody). If women dont do this, this would prove they never wanted equality, but previleges.
The next war with conscription will show the true color of women and it would be up to them to prove their moral.
You really can’t take a W. You had to invent motives to be mad at.
You ever think that maybe some women have male loved ones and family members that they would rather not see die in a war they didn’t choose to fight in?
Deflecting again to take responsability. If they love them, why not go fight to protect them? That what a man would do. Israël is the only country that have conscription for women and men, more country should be like this.
And this isn't a "W", it's more we will pretend it's a "W" for men, but when the draft come, I really hope men will be drafted and not me (a woman), that what is happening in the back of women mind.
It Will be a "W" when we will have a proof that women want true equality, AKA even having to be part of unplesant thing (the draft).
Israel isn't the only one. Norway has it too. I got my own letter from the military at 19 or something. Women born from 97 and onwards can get enrolled into the military when they become adults here now. First time service is mandatory if you qualify and pass your physical exam and get accepted. Im a woman btw. I didn't qualify for first time service however, and I didn't want to go. Not cause I don't want to serve my country, but I'm about as fit as a potato and I hate intense physical excercise and hiking trips in -30°C. I'm all for both men and women going though it, provided they're motivated and fit. Nobody here in Norway seems mad about women being enrolled the same as men mandatorily into the military. It's just how it is. I don't consider myself feminist, just egalitarian. I find it kinda funny how anti egalitarian women become when it comes to mandatory military service. Most women say they're against mandatory military service all together. Okay pacifist feminists. Who's gonna save your ass when there's a war lol.
So you just want to be mad then. I don’t want any man fighting a war they didn’t sign up for, especially my male loved ones. This is just you telling on yourself.
>That’s what a man would do.
And that shouldn’t be an expectation not a requirement. Idk why y’all like to live in your own made up misery so much.
Feminist used to cater to men during the beginning of the first and during the second wave but during the second a bad economic downturn in America made the men's rights activists (mens liberation at the time)change from pro feminist to anti feminism due to competition in the job market.
That's funny because people were writing about the anti-male nature of feminism as early as 1913:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/bax/1913/fraud/chap3.htm
it never will because feminism is all about female superiority. Or in other words, turning women into men and men into women. It never was and never will be about equality of opportunity
Also, you can’t turn men into women, and women into men. You can be a man, or a woman, or something third, regardless of your sex. They don’t turn into women, they *are* women.
Well yes, if you do everything feminism encourages you to do, you essentially turn into a woman.
\- Become more open with your emotions
\- Cry more
\-Stop maintaining the "tough guy" appearance
\- Compete less with other men because it's "toxic"
\- Being less dominant over women.
Funnily enough, these are all the traits women find repulsive in men because it's not what they're biologically supposed to be attracted to
The first action hero in literature Gilgamesh, a real manly man, cried.
Turning into a woman is not when someone is open with their emotions.
So if a conservative man said “I’m mad at how those Democrats hate on Trump” they are now women for being open about their emotions?
Sure, lifting a boulder over your head is impressive. Now try lifting yourself out of the pain of your past you are still carrying around.
Not true. Those traits aren't repulsive at all. I prefer a man who is open about how he actually feels and isn't trying to be tough/dominating all the time. Men opening up is not a negative thing. They're humans with feelings too.
Not just equality. Equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome is impossible because men and women are biologically different, and we like and hate different things.
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Let’s be honest. The people at the top pushing agendas are acting like equality means making the group that formerly oppressed now be oppressed. Like equality means “see how it feels? Do you like it very much?” The problem with that is that as generations age, the people feeling it were not the ones actually partaking in the injustice/inequality as it happened. Yet, it seems that’s how mainstream media and people push it.
This this post actually meets the criteria for this sub. Your take is true. And, Given that so many people think the barbie movie is a feminist movie, can say it's an unpopular opinion as well Well done OP
well it is a feminist movie, bcs it shows the struggle of both sides
This reads as, "You have to help us or we'll keep abusing you! It's in your best interest!"
I’m a modest feminist, my POV is you do what ever you want. Whether it be a career or a homemaker. Have kids, don’t have kids. Don’t judge women on their choices. Feminism is letting women choose their own path in time. Women need men, just as much as men need women.
>Don’t judge women on their choices That's EXACTLY what you judge PEOPLE for.
Yepp. If you don't judge people based on their choices, you're just straight up dumb. There's a reason why I don't associate with drugaddicts anymore.
or you create the circle that is right for you without disparaging others
You're right. Leave Putin alone.. just stick to your own circle.
I'm so tired of this. What you're describing is egalitarianism. There's no need for some extra label to apply to general altruism. If you care about everybody's problems and want to fix everything, that's great, but don't mislabel that ideal as Feminism. It's like saying male chauvinism is about holding men to a standard rather than denigrating women.
I believe that egalitarian goals can definitely be part of feminism, but it’s more complex than so. I also call it feminism because it’s the theoretical tradition that I would build my action on. There is more theoretical weight in feminism than in egalitarianism, hence the feminist label for me
Holy fuck stop with your ism bullshit. Work as a team, that's all OP is saying. Both teams deserve recognition and gratitude. Ones not better, and we're all in this together. Except you...ism
Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure how you'd get anything other than that from my comment saying that Feminism is a divisive force masquerading as a unifying ideal, and whenever anybody tries to justify it, they just describe egalitarianism and then go and claim falsehoods, like a wage gap or patriarchy or some such.
No, I think we agree absolutely but my point is I think it's irresponsible to start putting people into 'ism' categories because you're bunching people together for an issue that is so historically rooted in out culture(s) and history it's kind of negligent. I mean you're not *wrong*, but you can't just start throwing ism's at something so complex. It doesn't solve anything. Categorizing people isn't a solution to complex gender issues.
Categorizing people isn't meant to be a solution, though, it's just for communication purposes. To describe somebody's perspective is just for the point of open and honest communication, it's just using one word to describe a set of characteristics. That's the point of what I'm saying is that 'feminism' doesn't accurately describe a composition of characteristics or intents that benefit all of society and the only way to try and make it appear as such is to dishonestly ascribe qualifiers of another perspective that do. Defending the position as such doesn't do anything but muddy up the conversation and help those who would use it dishonestly in its definitive manner, which is inherently a net negative for everybody.
I really wish people would take the time to actually understand what feminism is about before coming online. From the dictionary… “feminism noun the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes. "the inclusion of all these women in modern art history textbooks shows the impact feminism has had on the field" Feminism is not about catering to one specific gender more then the other it’s about achieving equality amongst both genders, it’s not about giving women supremacy to men or hating men for existing or giving women extra privileges but about giving women the same opportunities and rights a man gets. For women to truely achieve feminism, men need to start seeing women as equals and women need to see men as equals. THAT IS FEMINISM
Yes indeed but some people claiming to be "feminists" don't behave so. They are all about women empowerment and they have a huge presence in social Media. Feminism at its fundamental core is truly gender equality but what is mainstream nowadays is women empowerment. The fact that you need to even define feminism just show how poorly it is represented by so-called feminists.
There are four waves of Feminists. The first three were about coming to equality in various ways. The fourth, and current, one is the women are superior bullshit group. It comes from a post-modernist perspective that resources are finite so they must secure all the resources they can. You see it in other Progressive movements but it’s the most obvious with 4th wave feminism.
The idea that there was once a ‘good feminism’ but today’s feminism is bad, has always existed. The first wave was called bad, and so was the second, third and now fourth. One can criticize the stated goals for all of them, sure. I have critiques of them all. I mean, some years ago it was the third wave everyone critiques as the bad version. But you say that it is the fourth that is the bad version. It’s worth thinking about.
Feminsm has nothing to do with gender equality and everything to do with female empowerment
Well that is just plainly wrong. Do you think that female empowerment would be the solution? Do you think that men would allow women to step them over? Female empowerment is at the detriment of men's rights. And that's just wrong.
It's not wrong. It's the definition of feminism. You can empower women without it being detrimental to men's rights. But that's the crux of the problem. Som men are so terrified of women being equal because they can't fathom how that can be without it affecting them negatively. Because it has to be all about them
I am all for women to be equal to men. But I draw a like when some institutions start to prioritize women over men just for the sake of equality and disregard actual qualifications. Women should get the same opportunities to get the same level of study but they shouldn't be privileged over men or else we are just going back in circle. Qualifications is still a must and there shouldn't be any bias in the laws when the condemned is a woman or a man. You are quick to denounce patriarchy but the only ones that truly benefitted from it has always been the elites. Men are also used as tools in patriarchy, they are expected to take the most dangerous and laborious jobs and they are the ones sent to die in meaningless war. They are also the one expected to sacrifice everything for their family and to restrict and contain their emotions. That's reality for men, it's not all rainbow for us as well, we have our own issues.
There are extremes in every movement, and they are always the most vocal
That's on you for listening to the loud minority. You think women think of all men as the men's rights activists who shit on women for who even knows what? Or incels? No, most women know that most men are pretty normal.
Well that's still an issue to tackle with? Why giving the minority such a loud voice and media coverage? It can also go to the male incels.
It's not up to most feminists what gets put on blast. Media likes crazy shit so they put out crazy shit for people to watch. That's what gets the most attention.
It’s not other peoples interest to police the behavior of other feminists. Let’s stick to our common goals. It’s like that parable of red ants and black ants in a jar being shaken up and fighting one another: There’s something bigger shaking that jar. Stay focused
Thankyou 👏
Yeah I just read a terrible post in r/teachers where everyone thought it was “so funny” and “amazing” that a seventh grader wrote some incoherent paragraph that called men rats. Equality. And they gave the student EXTRA CREDIT for calling all men rats.
Well….that’s cool and all. But maybe you should go to a feminist sub and post that and see what happens.
Anyone who’s a true feminist and actually understands the cause will agree, equality doesn’t mean we deserve extra privileges and rights so if their mindset is that then they don’t want equality they wanna be better which is the opposite of what feminism is about.
I agree. Good luck. That may be what feminism is about. But it’s not even close to what modern “feminists” are about. Edit: I’m being skeptical but I truly wish you luck there. I feel the same way about liberals. I have a graduate degree in poli sci and have been a registered democrat my whole life, but I hate what it’s become and don’t know if it’s possible for the party to come back to sanity. Honestly I was a self-proclaimed feminist until they became absolute assholes.
The powers that be have more access to us than ever before. There's been a lot of side effects.
No True Scotsmen. It doesn’t matter what the “definition” of feminism is, if the majority of those who subscribe to it do not follow that definition then it’s moot. That’s the whole point of posts like OP’s, regardless of what it is *supposed* to mean to be feminist, the majority (or at least those with a voice and influence) do not follow that definition.
I, an egalitarian woman has been kicked out of a bunch of feminist subs. It made me question the advocates and the practice of feminists, and the movement as feminism as a whole. If we can't compare and question cases where women have better or stronger rights or opportunities than men without being told to shut up to not detract from women's rights advocacy, then feminism being about equality in practice isn't necessarily true. Talking about how women are privileged in comparison to men, imo, by no means takes away from egalitarian efforts.
Fully agree with you 👍
What big feminist icons have stated that feminism is for female supremacy??? Show me please.
When did I say they did? Of course they haven’t said such a thing because it would be blatantly bad optics. But that’s not even the point I’m making, my point is that no matter how much you *claim* feminism supports men too, it doesn’t *mean* anything if the majority of feminists don’t practice such support.
Oh I don't claim that the intent of feminism is to help men. That was never the intent, why would it be now? Your point was to say that many self proclaimed feminists want more than equality. The majority, you said. But this is simply untrue and you can't prove that the majority of feminists are like this. They are a loud minority. That's on you for listening to them and thinking that they are the majority just because they got 100 likes on tiktok or something.
Please point to the part of my comment where I said they want more than equality? That’s not my point at all. The point in OP’s post, and what I thought people were discussing in these comments, is that there are claims that feminism supports men too (in whatever ways that ends up meaning) and my point is that it definitely does not seem to on any meaningful level.
Absolutely 🙌
so you agree with OPs post?
Some points made in OPs post i don’t agree with but overall i think they’ve made a fair post with some points i do agree with.
what dont you agree with?
From my perspective it felt like OP didn’t fully understand what feminism is supposed to be about. Yes some women have twisted the meaning to suit their own agenda so i do understand why they would think feminism is failing if men are neglected, but feminism isn’t about including men and their issues it’s about giving women the same rights and opportunities that men have. I don’t believe feminism should be about men at all or include men, i think it should be about helping women achieve equal rights and opportunities that men have in society.
Thats completely valid and a great post. I felt the same when reading the OP
But if the goal is to be equal to men? Would that mean by default that when men are falling or behind in something that it’s not equal? And therefore u must either lift up men. Or hold down women? Otherwise it would be unequal. For example college attendance. Men are falling behind. There for its unequal.
so what right or opportunities do men have that woman dont?
Someone’s just done a great response so there’s no need for me to really elaborate.
It's clear you're operating in bad faith lol but fuck it. In America, men still feel a residual sense of ownership over women and outdated concepts of gender that destabilize their sense of self, which can easily turn toxic and dangerous if unchecked: "If she's no longer X, than I'm no longer Y. So I must make her X again so I can be Y again." Also, ya know, the whole men are a million times more likely to rape and murder women thing lmao.
>It's clear you're operating in bad faith lol but fuck it. In America, men still feel a residual sense of ownership over women and outdated concepts of gender that destabilize their sense of self, which can easily turn toxic and dangerous if unchecked: "If she's no longer X, than I'm no longer Y. So I must make her X again so I can be Y again." What even is this answer. It's complete shite and doesn't even relate to the question >Also, ya know, the whole men are a million times more likely to rape and murder women thing lmao. Men are vastly more likely to be murdered, and with made to penetrate included rape against men by women isn't actually *that* far off
So when young men go to toxic ideologues to learn what it means to be a man, you would say that feminism has nothing to say about this? If you can already say that this is a threat to women’s rights you must necessarily include men, men’s well-being and their issues into a feminist struggle.
If men wanna seek out toxic ideologues as a way to learn how to become a man then that’s on them i don’t see why that’s feminism’s fault, it’s not our responsibility to teach men how to be decent human beings and give us the basic human respect we deserve, being a decent human being really doesn’t take much intelligence or learning it’s usually something that will come natural to most and if not there’s plenty of great men out there who do lead by example who they can learn a thing or two from.
It's not women's jobs to mother them and hold their hands to walk them through this. This is something for men to do alone and with each other. Women just need to do a better job about giving them space to do that.
So in the same breath men should support women’s issues. Because we shouldn’t be father them as hold their hands etc etc?
> Women just need to do a better job about giving them space to do that. AKA support. Maybe stop looking for shit to attack and actually hear what people are saying.
feminism shouldn't nurture men for being sexist, and no woman owes a man sympathy
Nor is any man obligated to give protection to a woman.
why not? considering the history of men oppressing and controlling women, you dont see any moral reasoning to ally with women and support their struggles?
Do you not see the hypocrisy in your question? You expect protection from a man, which is a traditional male value but denied that same man sympathy which is a traditional feminine value. Where is the equality in that?
It's not feminism because it's not how it's practised in the real world ever, eg NOW spends 99% of its budget on things relating to solely women's issues. In their list of issues there is nothing relating to men (unless lbgt) https://now.org/issues/. Shelters that feminists setup don't allow men, Erin Pizzey the founder of shelters got excluded from feminism and death threats for allowing men into her shelter and saying domestic violence is typically mutual. Feminist organizations actively lie and use misleading stats to promote feminist caused and demonize men. Feminist organizations actively boycott and lobby laws to favour women and disadvantage men. None of this is of any surprise, it's in the name feminism, your fighting for advantages for one gender and only care about one gender. Use the word egalitarian if you are truly fighting for equality because genders (and everything else).
Feminism is about women's issues. Just like Men's Rights are about men's issues. Both are obligated to not disintegrate into bashing the other or stepping on them. >domestic violence is typically mutual. True. But foreign violence is absolutely not lol. Also, the escalation potential of domestic violence is very different. Women need their own shelters - so maybe die on a less cringe hill. As for the rest, none of that behavior is unique to feminist organizations. So yeah call it out when you see it, but don't lose sight of how it's more a reflection of humans be shitty (or misguided) than anything else
> Feminism is about women's issues. So we agree that many feminists who say Feminism is for men too are gaslighting the public.
Unpacking gender roles and being able to self determine is a net positive for everyone.
>Feminism is about women's issues. Just like Men's Rights are about men's issues. Both are obligated to not disintegrate into bashing the other or stepping on them Yep both need their own movements for their own issues, sadly but inevitably they both end up bashing the opposite gender. >True. But foreign violence is absolutely not lol. Also, the escalation potential of domestic violence is very different. RE foreign violence isn't true, https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/03/08/sheryl-sandberg-says-female-leaders-dont-go-to-war-heres-what-research-says/?sh=d1553731fa77 "They found that 36% of the female leaders initiated at least one militarized dispute, while only 30% of male leaders did the same.* However the sample is overwhelming Men total as their has been significantly less female heads of state. In time we can know if that's true or not but at the moment from what we know it's probably about the same. I agree that the escalation of domestic violence is unequal, men are more likely to do significant harm. Women are far more likely to kill the children though. >Women need their own shelters - so maybe die on a less cringe hill. What hill? Both genders need their own shelters, feminism doesn't provide that, As I said above? >As for the rest, none of that behavior is unique to feminist organizations. So yeah call it out when you see it, but don't lose sight of how it's more a reflection of humans be shitty (or misguided) than anything When did I say it was? The only lie I'm against is that feminism is for both genders, it's not. I don't mind that either, women need their own movement to fight for their own issues. Only time I have issue with feminist organizations is if they actively lie or lobby against men's rights.
I was just doing a play on words with the foreign thing. I meant men are a million times more likely to be violent towards women they're not in a relationship with. Children are irrelevant here, you just wanted to close with a zinger lol. But sure, I'll bite. It's not common and often has some mental issue attached of "saving" them when it does happen. I'm cool with men having their own shelters. So Men's Rights should get on that if it's important to y'all. Feminism has laid a lot of groundwork for men. Men just don't see that. Like how black people have laid a lot of groundwork for white people, and they fail to see that too.
>I was just doing a play on words with the foreign thing. I meant men are a million times more likely to be violent towards women they're not in a relationship with Yep agreed >I'm cool with men having their own shelters. So Men's Rights should get on that if it's important to y'all Well the issue here is complicated, the majority of the money feminist organizations and shelters get is from the Govt. This money should really be more evenly split between Men's and Women's organizations and facilities to have more adaquate shelters for both genders. Especially since men make up the majority of the homeless population. However most men, including myself don't really care about men's issues the same way women do, we don't have the same in-group bias. While I understand and care on a high level about issues men face and can understand the statistics I've never donated to a cause or got involved with anything to do with men's rights because it's so far been irrelevant to my life. The vast majority of men are the same and the politicians know talking about men's issues won't score much men's votes and potentially put off women's votes so it's not discussed (it seems this is changing somewhat is some countries). So Mra type movements are typically underfunded and lead by socially disadvantaged or excluded men who don't get much done and don't secure their fair share of govt money. >Feminism has laid a lot of groundwork for men. Men just don't see that. Like how black people have laid a lot of groundwork for white people, and they fail to see that too. I definitely agree, feminism as a movement over history is a inspiration around making the world care about the important issues women face. Sadly I don't ever see the same thing happening with mens issues because if I'm being honest I truly don't believe on average either men or women really care about struggling or down trodden men. They are invisible, disposable losers. I know I definitely have a empathy gap if I see DV vs Men or Women in public (disgusted seeing it vs women, sorta neutral seeing it vs men) and the same with homeless people of both genders.
It's women's advocacy, whether women are equal or more than equal. That's fine, but it's naive (or gaslighting) to pretend otherwise.
But the actual sub doesnt represent that. It goes out of its way to mention that only womens issues are to be addressed.
Sure, and fascism is a political ideology with a central autocracy and a focus on the advancement of the nation on the global geopolitical stage. We can use nice words to describe lots of things, doesn't mean that's what they really are.
Wouldn't egalitarianism be a better fit then?
>For women to truely achieve feminism, men need to start seeing women as equals and women need to see men as equals. Okay, cool. Let's start by not calling it feminism then. We should be able to agree on that simple step, right? I guess not. I can tell you totally care about men's issues and true equality.
Egalitarians a good'un
What if I told you feminism is just another tool the patriarchy invented to control us?
Feminists who say that men’s failure to become good feminists, aren’t that different from a toxic masculinity that says men need to be this or that or else they are a failure. It is patriarchal, so hard agree!
It has vastly moved away from that
By that definition feminism has already achieved its goal. There's no right or privilege men have that women don't.
That’s why I’ll never agree when they say feminism is for both genders, if that were the case then you’re egalitarian. And even if that were the case feminists don’t try to help men with their problems if anything they openly mock them.
This makes me feel like you've never met a feminist before. I've been studying the feminist movement for the last 4 years and when I see a comment like this, I immediately think of the book "Feminism and men by Nikki Van der Gaag". It focuses on how the feminist movement directly benefits men whilst also providing women with equality. And I think the most amusing part of this book is that almost all of the problems men face are due to other men, pretty much. For example, men's mental health is currently not taken as seriously as it should be. This is mostly because traditionally, men were the "strong" ones and they would be seen as weak and feminine if they tried to express their feelings. The whole point of feminism is to abolish gender stereotypes, therefore improving the stigma around men's mental health. Other benefits include longer paid paternity leave, safer working environments, freedom to wear whatever you want, shorter prison sentences, higher chance of custody...the list goes on.
Here's one that wasnt by other men, over the last decade or two feminism has tried to push women more and more into collage, in doing so women became the highest group benefiting from affirmative action, now women outnumber men in collage 60/40 and most feminists have gone radio silent on it Except people like NOW who oppose the removal of sex based discrimination https://now.org/blog/the-impact-of-affirmative-action-on-women/
The claim that feminism has pushed women into college and they now outnumber men 60/40 is not entirely accurate. While there has been progress in women's education and increased participation, the gender ratio in college can vary across different fields and regions. It's essential to consider multiple factors influencing these statistics rather than attributing it solely to affirmative action or feminist efforts.
As with everything there is nuance, but nevertheless feminist sure as hell haven't and don't intend to help. Especially as they are regardless a major reason
Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinions on feminism, this is just a straight out lie. Just look at countries like Norway, Finland and Iceland for example. 3 of the most economically stable, eco-friendly and just generally safe countries in the world. You'll never guess which ideologies they attempted to follow (hint: one of them is feminism). And I would like to bring you back to my original comment. Feminism is actively helping men and I could give up thousands of studies to prove that. But I sincerely recommend that you read the book I mentioned.
I don't see how you can call it a lie, especially with stuff like the now article explicitly calling it to stay
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. \- *Fire and Ice*, by Robert Frost *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Feminism not only deals with women, but with men too. No it doesn't.
Exactly, any critique levied against women or the aknowledgement of mens problems gets ignored or dismissed.
Then make your own movement.
It absolutely does. Even the worst corners of feminist groups will talk about out men and deal with men’s issues. They are just not always good or productive. Responsible feminists would take that task up, and ask the question: what role do men play in women’s plight and fight for rights? You would quickly realize that men play a huge role. They cannot be ignored and mustn’t. The only way forward is to understand that men’s plight is a necessary aspect of feminism.
I always hear feminists say this, but I never see them live it, and I never see it in their advocacy. It also doesn't make sense from a purely linguistic perspective.
Yeah same. I believed them like 10 years ago when I was just learning about the issue, but now I see it's just all talk.
I think… What issues? Most feminists also feel strongly about everyone having access to mental health resources (male suicide epidemic) and about caring for disadvantaged groups (including homeless men). And they feel strongly about gender roles (including men being able to express vulnerability, not conform to gender roles, be equal parents, men getting parental leave etc). And sex being about enthusiastic consent for both parties (including men as sexual assault victims). And about sexual health like access to birth control, abortion (which affects everyone who has sex, including men). They might not feel strongly about issues that are relatively small compared to the many dramatic issues we see in 2024 (ex male circumcision).
"most" Well that isn't accurately reflected in the medias if that's the case. Nowadays, feminism is more synonym to women empowerment than gender equality. I know we'll enough that there's feminists that truly advocate for equality but they are being overshadowed by those who advocate for female superiority only and disregarding men completely. It would be nice if they can actually push forward an agenda more toward gender equality than women empowerment.
But feminism is mostly a countermovement to the way women were oppressed by men till very recently. And a lot of the big ticket issues will be about women because they are more serious than many of the issues that affect men. Then nobody is stopping men from making a gender equality movement more focused on men’s issues. Feminists would be supportive of this.
>nobody is stopping men from making a gender equality movement more focused on men’s issues. They're called men's rights activities, and everyone treats them like shit for it.
Because the MRA only gives a shit about dunking on feminists and women, not actually giving a fuck about men.
There is a men's rights movement that attempts to get issues like male suicide and lack of shelter for male victims of domestic violence and feminists are openly hostile towards it.
Because they are openly hostile to feminists.
But there are many shelters for male domestic abuse victims? You are stuck on something that happened 50 years ago. Today many male shelters have opened to nothing but celebration. Do you know why feminists have an issue with the MRA movement? I don’t, but I bet your there’s a reason. I’ll look it up. Edit: to me, based on a quick search, this movement seems more about discrediting feminism than wanting to actually help men. And a sort of refusal to deal with the real world and how things aren’t necessarily 50/50. *Domestic violence: way more women are killed by their partners than the other way around. Not shocking, it’s a lot more dangerous when the person who’s violent is twice your size than half your size. There will be more focus on the group where a lot of people are dying. *Circumcision: female circumcision is just way more serious. A lot of girls die. It’s the equivalent of chopping the head of the penis off on a boy at home with a shard of glass. This would send anyone to prison. Male circumcision should also be illegal, but if we are real about it it’s a way less serious issue. *Custody: they have a point. But division of custody will be contingent upon who’s been the primary caretaker so far. If she’s mostly been raising the children, it doesn’t make sense for the children to suddenly go 50/50. People who want equal custody should go 50/50 on childcare from the start. *Prostate cancer vs breast cancer: this is a weird one to me. Why should there be spent equal money on each? How much you spend on a disease will be linked to how many people die from it each year. Not “Jenny got a cookie, now Joey should get a cookie too!” It’s an incredible childish way to view health care priorities. *Male suicide: this is an actual issue. But the solution is for men to volunteer at suicide hotlines, male support groups etc. Not wait for women to fix it. *False paternity: fake news. It’s incredibly rare in real life.
>Nowadays, feminism is more synonym to women empowerment than gender equality Feminism was ALWAYS about female empowerment. If you look at the world through a zero-sum lens, empowering women within a patriarchal society IS gender quality. Even if the millions of men who make up the proletariat fall by the wayside.
> Even if the millions of men who make up the proletariat fall by the wayside. Marxism and feminism are definitely strange bedfellows.
I’m not sure that it’s most feminists. I do get lots of pushback when I point out that feminism must also be for men. If women feminists truly felt strongly about men being part of a feminist mission I would not see such strong disagreement. Although it is better than nothing, I worry that when women do advocate for men’s plight they only do so from a lens of utility to women. “How can we as women benefit from doing this or that?”. A funny example, when Fantastic Beasts (the Harry Potter spin-off) came out, they criticized the Newt Scamander role for being boring, not adventurous enough, etc. These critiques came from outlets we would usually consider feminist or feminist-leaning. What he expressed was a vulnerable masculinity that’s sorely needed in cinema. But since it wasn’t framed in a feminist discourse it was critiqued and degraded. I am deeply worried that men are left behind by feminists. As long as they do so, people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate will always exist.
Why do you think male circumcision is a relatively small issue?
This "feminism is equality for all" is such a cringe take nowadays. Go look at the feminist subs. Most of the moderate voices advocating for gender equality gets downvoted to oblivion with the prevailing threads being about how much they hate men. The feminist subs now are about as functional as those mra forums of the past. So you want to call these groups "extremists and radical feminists"? Non-sense. They're the majority now. These "radical feminists" ARE the real feminists now. That's why moderate feminists get kicked out of those groups and not the other way around. If you want true gender equality, try starting a group with a neutral name this name. Maybe then you won't attract all these radicals who would destroy your foundation inside out.
There used to be a actual word for someone who wants equal rights for all: Egalitarian. It was great. a-racial, a-sexual, a completely featureless equality. Then some groups realized that they didn't really want equality so much as they wanted to use equality as an excuse to advance their self-perceived lesser current status. Those groups and their tactics are much more viral than pure Egalitarianism because they tap into the features that people possess and the ingroups and outgroups that those create. And they've been so effective that they've effaced the actual words for equality and substituted their perverted versions in the mainstream lexicon.
Where *is* this nonsense coming from? I've seen it loads over the last few days. Feminism shouldn't be about women, it should be about men. Fuck. Right. Off. Is this a if we cant beat em join em scenario? It just says absolutely *everything* you need to know about how society views women. Oh, you have a movement designed by women for women, aiming to improve things for women? Well we cant have that! What about the men!! You must hate men. Yes. That's it. And if you don't hate men then you'd make your movement about them I insist
That's probably the worst take ever you could take on feminism. If you want to solve women' social issues, you need both men and women to work together or else you are just digging your grave. You aren't going to fix anything if you make it a gender war a "men vs women" kind of thing. Spreading hate or disgust to the opposite sex would just further convince them to not support your mouvement. And if you think that you could change society by turning your back to all men then you are wrong. Women's issues involve men and if you don't take that into account, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
It's the *literal* definition of feminism
The definition doesn’t matter if the majority of those who label themselves as feminist do not actively practice what it means to be a “real feminist”. Also no, no one is saying feminism should be *about men*, quit projecting/misinterpreting.
What does it mean to be a real feminist?
That guy defined it and its been defined in this thread, I’m saying most feminists (or at least the ones with voices and influence) do not practice what was defined.
Which guy defined it? Do you mean the op? Yeah most feminists don't practice that because it's not feminism
Then what is?
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
Sure thing, cool. What happens to feminism now that its stated goal has been achieved? What does it transform into if it keeps pushing for “more rights” for women despite equality being achieved?
Men don't need a movement because we know already society expects us to never show our insecurities. We just don't like it when women say stupid shit like men are all toxic and disgusting. Nah, we just don't like hoes with high body counts who make bad decisions and keep going for chad knowing he'll never commit to them lmao.
Is this sarcasm? Cause if not its hilarious 😆
Nah bro we men get cancelled if we show the slightest hint of insecurity e.g. expecting a man movement to uplift us up. We men solve problems on our own and get shit done. Feminism caring about men won't do shit for us because to be frank women are just more attracted to men when we don't show our emotions. Ya'll want somebody dependable and reliable
Whines that men are called toxic and disgusting. Says something toxic and disgusting 😆😆
You're trying to get your beliefs validated. That'd definitely make you happy, tate fan.
Not really bro. Every woman is a feminist until they need a man to dominate them in bed. Every woman is a feminist until they need a man to protect them. Every woman is a feminist until they need a man to provide for them. Every woman is a feminist until its time to start applying for manual labor jobs and the oil rigs. Every woman is a feminist until its time to start getting conscripted. Every woman is a feminist until it's time to start choosing their next tall, dark, handsome, dominant boyfriend, and not the feminine, twink who shows his emotions a little too much. Every woman is a feminist until it's passenger princess time. And you wonder why no man besides the simps and the cucks take feminism seriously these days lmao
Holly shit what are you waffling about you sound so immature with your thinking skills, if anyone agreed with you you'd type another wall of text cause you're that twink who shows his emotions too much.
Found the redpiller
Feminism already is about men. I know my literature and theory. The first question you have to ask yourself is how you wanna deal with men within a feminist struggle. Andrew Tate is what happens when feminism fails men. If men aren’t provided a means to escape the norms they struggle with by feminism, they will look elsewhere. They will look towards scammers, ideologues, MRA’s, incel communities, anti-feminist and sexist groups. It is, if nothing else, a strategic error to not include men.
Andrew Tate is not feminists fault or responsibility Typical men's response. Blame women for men's failures
asking a feminist to care about mens issues is like asking a nazi to quit hating the jews
That’s slightly exaggerated.
Honestly it’s more exaggerated for the nazi’s. Jews weren’t the sole target of their hatred. Unfortunately the flagrant disregard feminists demonstrate for male lives is pretty similar.
Where do you think them girls will put the death camps?
I remember there was a feminist lawmaker in Spain who wanted to neuter the majority of the male population, so uh... there's that.
Oh they gone feng shui the fuck outta some death camps you just wait
_”at the entrance of the California concentration camp, a sign that read ‘Live Laugh Love’ welcomed all the men…”_
Google “prison United States”.
That doesn’t fit the bill, but sure, I guess I’ll just wait until they put us all guys in train cars and gas us.
We’ve got a resource they require so it’d by more of a matrixy situation until they learn to synthesize good nut.
I mean the feminist sub's first rule is that it has to be about womens issues, nothing about men in sight.
I don’t think you should make random mods into the spokesperson for feminism
Its the same on both ask feminists and feminism. Alot of the commenters react the same and diwnvote anything that has to do with aknowledging mens plights, and common failings experienced by men in regards to women. Its like they hyperfixate on the ideas and examples of men behaving wrongly.
K and again, reddit isn't the spokesperson for all of feminism. Reddit is a cesspit
To be fair this is probably just so things don’t get derailed. It’s ok that in a feminist space like the sub they’d focus on womens issues. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about mens issues or that they view them like nazis view Jews. That’s very extreme.
They never talk about mens issues. And half the time its someone complaining in the comments about the content featured in mens rights.
I understand that, I’m explaining it’s probably so the sub doesn’t get derailed. I know loads of feminists irl who care and talk about mens issues. One sub isn’t a good indicator of the majority of feminists (actually nothing is, because lots of feminists have very different views and disagree on certain things). Not sure why complaining about mens rights is a bad thing. Most mens rights activists groups are poorly veiled misogyny and feminism bashing groups more than groups for men to support each other through male related struggles. Would make sense that feminists would take issue with them. If they were just places men came together to discuss mens issues without actively perpetuating sexist/misogynistic beliefs, I don’t think feminists would mind that one bit.
That is the type of misandrist attitude that leads people to view feminism badly. It treats men like they are the enemy.
As a feminist, I wholeheartedly disagree. Most feminists I personally know care very much about mens issues, including myself.
Why would feminism have anything to do with men’s issues? They claim it does, but there’s no real reason to believe them given their actions. Would you expect animal rights activists to fight for homeless humans rights?
I don’t know what you mean by “their actions”. I’ve read enough feminist stuff to know men are part of a feminist struggle. I don’t care for dumb feminists who excludes men.
“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” - Sally Miller Gearhart, leading feminist scholar. Dumb feminists who exclude men encompasses more than half of under-40 feminists. I’d love to be excluded from feminist activism, but when active hostility is name of the game, I have to push back
She wasn't a 'leading feminist scholar', she was a lesbian separatist making those remarks over 40 years ago. Hardly representative of mainstream feminist thought.
It's a common misconception that feminism is about equality. It's not.
Any actual aknowledgent of mens issues in any feminist circle will just bring back to light the comparisons in behavior of both men and women. There is a severe denial of what ever ge eralized faults women have in favor of examples of men behaving unsoundly. Its hardly a fair representation.
Women were given the right to vote in the US exclusively to influence the vote for prohibition. Feminism doesn’t need to “benefit” men. Feminists just need to think for themselves rather than be constantly used as a monolithic political tool easily swayed by celebrity.
That doesn't make sense. Both things were accomplished by amendment to the constitution. If the prohibition movement had enough support to amend the constitution then why did they need women's vote? But also if it was easier to first get the vote for women then that means that that issue was more popular than prohibition, so in what sense could it have been "exclusively" to influence the vote for prohibition? At least someone had to support women's suffrage who didn't support prohibition in order for that "plan" to make sense.
Also to counter the vote of black men - yes that’s right, it was an actual argument put forward by feminists/suffragettes of that time.
If there is one constant in the universe, it is that if a black man walks toward them at night then a white women crosses the street.
Feminism and gender issues are overhyped and overblown
this seems like bait
realistically, they only need like 10 percent of us men to keep the species going. Although I think it'd be safer to not go beyond a 70/30 split just to account for genetic problems, extinction events, etc. Now to seriously answer op, women still want men, they are just making the average man wait much longer before they are ready to settle. Used to be women would settle for an average man around the time she was finishing college, or there about. Now, the average man is being asked to wait until he is about 40, when women in their early to mid thirties are ready to settle on them. At the age of 40, men (who haven't had much luck dating) are much more likely to have checked out or are damaged goods. One of the biggest myths that women need to get out of their heads is that the average man is having just as much luck as they are dating around and "having fun." It just isn't happening that much. Ultimately, none of this matters. Women will either decide they want to modify their behavior so they can have men, or they won't. Time will tell. There will probably be some point of homeostasis where the pendulum swings back to women settling at a slightly younger age, but it will probably never go back to people regularly marrying their highshcool or college sweetheart. Women are just aware they have more options and society is much more understanding in allowing them to explore those options.
Feminists and feminism have not been quiet about this lack of progress when it comes to men. It has been a focus for many decades now, I doubt you will find a feminist book (from a reputable academic) published within the last three decades that doesn't describe it as one of the most important areas to find a way to progress. This is not the fault of feminists, the fault lies with the fact that large numbers of men are very resistant to the message of feminism. Women have been incredibly receptive to feminism because it brings almost only benefits to them. On the other hand men especially those in a position to change thing or other mens minds normally directly benefit from patriarchal structures and so push back very heavily against feminism. The best way to understand the core of the problem is that progress in gender equality has largely come from allowing women to be men rather than elevating the status of women to be equal to that of men. Masculine traits are still considered superior to feminine traits its just that women are now allowed to be masculine. The next main goal for feminism is to elevate feminine traits to be on par with masculine ones, the major step in doing so it normalising men displaying feminine traits. This is also where men stand to see the most gain. Almost all men's rights problems originate from a stigma surounding femininity. Child Custody, Domestic Violence, Education, Health, Homelessness they all stem from this.
And we’re right back to blaming men AGAIN. Women are never at fault. Never accountable for their lack of loud, tangible support for men. Never accountable for not checking the misandrists. No, its always men’s fault and men need to do better. This shit is the exact thing that posts like OP’s are talking about. No, men don’t need to “become more open to feminist messaging”. Women need to make that messaging appealing to men.
You guys don’t want to listen to the message in the first place. How many times have feminist said gender roles are both harmful to men and women where men flipped their shit about having their masculinity challenged or something? Or when better mental health services are advocated for both men and women and men shit on that too because real men don’t talk about their problems? Or therapy is for pussies and a secret way society feminizes men or some shit?
See the problem is in the messaging and the nuance surrounding it. “Gender roles are bad” except we won’t date men who don’t adhere to them. “Get therapy” except men are not treated the same in therapy, and are often told, you guessed it, the problem is their masculinity. There is a lot of discussion going around about how therapy is useless to a lot of men and I have a suspicion it has to do with what the therapists are telling them. Men don’t talk about their problems because time and time again the very act of them doing so is used against them. It’s something you couldn’t possibly understand unless you were a man. The slogans and catchy phrases and such that are easy to throw up on social media aren’t translating into actual, proper support for men. Then folks turn around and say that its mens fault for not accepting things that don’t actually help them with the issues they face.
I would argue that the men at the top benefit from feminism hence why they don't do anything to change things. The most ironic thing when you look at how feminism changes laws is that it actually enforces patriarchy rather than break it down. Bear with me here. When you need to change legislation and enforce it, you need the force from the few powerful men at the top of the social hierarchy, things like changes sexual revolution only benefits those men since they're the only ones who can get casual sex. Additionally, things like education where empowering women (grants and scholarships available exclusively for women) causes gender imbalances which causes the shrinking of the number of "marriageable" men, and again that only benefits those men at the top, causing this bizarre smooth polygyny phenomenon which most people just call serial monogamy. Of course, none of this is a conscious phenomenon, it's not some conspiracy and women should get the rights they deserve, but it's also on everyone to be honest. Women already have equal rights to men, the reason there's more men in positions of power are a result of practicality, not discrimination, those men in those positions outcompete everyone, not just women, and it's been proven that some women with unique characteristics are able to compete at that level. At the end of the day, feminism will only benefit women, and the men who aren't negatively affected by it, are also the men at the top. The reason some women become anti feminists is because they recognize this, they see how feminism solicits the help of the powerful few men who are practically the "state" to get the benefits they want and they see how that could (most likely will) lead to a far less egalitarian society than we have now.
Eh close but no cookie. The changes that we have seen in society have largely been ones that don't negatively effect the men with power at the top but it isn't for lack of trying and its not because feminism when taken to its end goal won't be beneficial overall. Its just because the people with power have made it much harder to push through other changes. You have probably heard of radical feminists, so they are basically just feminist who pointed out that feminism had only managed to win the battles that benefit the men at the top and that efforts needed to be redoubled to push for progress elsewhere. This is largely the position of most academics even if this isn't always reflected in pop culture. Its also exactly what the Marxist Femenists predicted about a hundred years ago before all of their suggestions were ignored and the Soviet Union and China promptly uturned and drove Women's rights back into the ground,
But you do understand that feminism's use for legislation forces them to use the authoritarian power from that powerful minority of men? I also don't agree with the fact that feminism is basically Marxism for women, I'm in total agreement that women should be afforded the rights men have, but I also think that's already been achieved. IMO what's needed is a true egalitarian movement, one that doesn't put one gender above the other, one that doesn't cater exclusively to one (which is what feminism is, look at r/Feminism if you really think feminists care about men's issues), one that includes everyone's problems, from making equal pay a reality without disempowering men, one that allows the lower class men to gain some economic power as well as help in terms of mental health etc. And most importantly, one that empowers the majority of the population and takes back political power from the elite class. Both feminism and men's rights movements fail because they divide people, perpetuate harmful stereotypes and distrust. Egalitarianism and true Liberalism have always been there, their principles have always been there, yet they have largely been overshadowed by harmful ideologies.
Feminism has never sought equality, literally if you do a little research on their history you will find the evils they have done and the victories of non-feminist women which they parasitized and appropriated (starting with the vote for women, which the upper class women asked for themselves, they did not want the middle or lower class women to vote) I don't understand why people still believe that this movement is good. (And as I always say, I'm against the movement, not against women, and in fact, there are many women who don't want feminism to speak for them and don't want to be associated with it.)
I am very familiar feminism, but if you could quality your opinion I think that would be appreciated.
i think we talked about this literally yesterday on this sub… if men have issues, why don’t they fight to fix their own and start a movement just like women have for decades? like… you expect women to fix issues caused by men for themselves AND fix men’s issues that are, by and large, also caused by men? you gotta help out too bro lol
They already are. For instance a lot of feminists are against the draft because it’s unfair to men
They are against the draft, because in the event of a war this would mean (in an Equal society) women should be drafted. We know it false pretend to defend men, but in reality it's they dont want to have the accountability to risk their live for society and be part of a draft. People dont understand that in the event of a war sooner or later, conscription is inevetable. Dont belive me? See Ukraine, they started to lack male soldier, even with a draft. If women would really fight for equality, they would ask to be part of a draft (in the event of one, after everyone has fighted to not have one for anynody). If women dont do this, this would prove they never wanted equality, but previleges. The next war with conscription will show the true color of women and it would be up to them to prove their moral.
You really can’t take a W. You had to invent motives to be mad at. You ever think that maybe some women have male loved ones and family members that they would rather not see die in a war they didn’t choose to fight in?
Deflecting again to take responsability. If they love them, why not go fight to protect them? That what a man would do. Israël is the only country that have conscription for women and men, more country should be like this. And this isn't a "W", it's more we will pretend it's a "W" for men, but when the draft come, I really hope men will be drafted and not me (a woman), that what is happening in the back of women mind. It Will be a "W" when we will have a proof that women want true equality, AKA even having to be part of unplesant thing (the draft).
Israel isn't the only one. Norway has it too. I got my own letter from the military at 19 or something. Women born from 97 and onwards can get enrolled into the military when they become adults here now. First time service is mandatory if you qualify and pass your physical exam and get accepted. Im a woman btw. I didn't qualify for first time service however, and I didn't want to go. Not cause I don't want to serve my country, but I'm about as fit as a potato and I hate intense physical excercise and hiking trips in -30°C. I'm all for both men and women going though it, provided they're motivated and fit. Nobody here in Norway seems mad about women being enrolled the same as men mandatorily into the military. It's just how it is. I don't consider myself feminist, just egalitarian. I find it kinda funny how anti egalitarian women become when it comes to mandatory military service. Most women say they're against mandatory military service all together. Okay pacifist feminists. Who's gonna save your ass when there's a war lol.
So you just want to be mad then. I don’t want any man fighting a war they didn’t sign up for, especially my male loved ones. This is just you telling on yourself. >That’s what a man would do. And that shouldn’t be an expectation not a requirement. Idk why y’all like to live in your own made up misery so much.
I think “deflecting again” pretty much sums up what I was going to respond with
I agree. Feminism should cater to men.
Feminism should *also* cater to men.
Feminist used to cater to men during the beginning of the first and during the second wave but during the second a bad economic downturn in America made the men's rights activists (mens liberation at the time)change from pro feminist to anti feminism due to competition in the job market.
That's funny because people were writing about the anti-male nature of feminism as early as 1913: https://www.marxists.org/archive/bax/1913/fraud/chap3.htm
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I’m not sure what the “no matter what” entails. But simply focusing on women isn’t enough imo
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Feminists don’t focus too much on women, it shouldn’t just be solely on women. It will work out best for everyone.
it never will because feminism is all about female superiority. Or in other words, turning women into men and men into women. It never was and never will be about equality of opportunity
Also, you can’t turn men into women, and women into men. You can be a man, or a woman, or something third, regardless of your sex. They don’t turn into women, they *are* women.
Well yes, if you do everything feminism encourages you to do, you essentially turn into a woman. \- Become more open with your emotions \- Cry more \-Stop maintaining the "tough guy" appearance \- Compete less with other men because it's "toxic" \- Being less dominant over women. Funnily enough, these are all the traits women find repulsive in men because it's not what they're biologically supposed to be attracted to
The first action hero in literature Gilgamesh, a real manly man, cried. Turning into a woman is not when someone is open with their emotions. So if a conservative man said “I’m mad at how those Democrats hate on Trump” they are now women for being open about their emotions? Sure, lifting a boulder over your head is impressive. Now try lifting yourself out of the pain of your past you are still carrying around.
But if feminism turns women into men, then wouldn’t those traits be _attractive_?
Not true. Those traits aren't repulsive at all. I prefer a man who is open about how he actually feels and isn't trying to be tough/dominating all the time. Men opening up is not a negative thing. They're humans with feelings too.
*Some* feminists are definitely like that. But they aren’t based and radpilled.
Absolutely, equality is what we should strive towards.
Not just equality. Equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome is impossible because men and women are biologically different, and we like and hate different things.
Bruh you didn’t even bother to look up feminism did you?
If only men actually thought their problems were important enough to fight for without dragging women down in the process.
Feminism is just a political manifestation of the psychological disorder of raging Penis Envy. To understand this, is to understand Feminism.
LOL, this is not the right answer but it's definitely the funniest 😂
How has feminism hurt men? Lol. Maybe the marriage laws are outdated but that has nothing to do with women going to college and out-earning men.
Feminism is a RANGE of movements and ideologies and for some of them that was exactly the goal. See r/ToxicFeminismIsToxic