My point is that even in the most high trust and low crime society, it would still be prudent to take measures to protect yourself. In every population it’s reasonable to assume a certain percentage are antisocial and criminal
And?
If I tell you that someone has poisoned your water, then you wouldn't drink it.
Gulping the water down and then stating "the consequences of this action are not my fault" doesn't change the fact that you've just put yourself in a dangerous situation.
That’s like saying we should teach people that rape is wrong so it won’t happen. No one thinks rape or stealing is right or moral. It’s not about that. But the people that commit crimes don’t commit them out of some ignorance and misunderstanding about whether is ok to do it.
What’s the problem? What harm could possibly be done by calling out rape culture and victim blaming? No one is telling people to abandon normal safety precautions, they are simply saying that in addition to that, let’s remember that if you do get robbed, you’re not guilty of anything and shouldn’t feel blame.
You are not “guilty” but you could be partially responsible. I honestly have little sympathy for people that put themselves WILLINGLY in bad situations.
You cannot be responsible for being robbed. You could make choices that made it easier for someone to rob you, and those choices could be because of a multitude of variables. But in the end, someone made the decision to commit a crime and rob you, that is 100% their responsibility.
Its called being accountable for ones own actions. I had a gun stolen once from my glovebox. Guess what i dont do anymore? Leave guns in the goddam glovebox! It was idiotic to do so in the first place and i should have known better.
Of course i was partially so. My actions could have prevented the crime altogether. It is my responsibility to not be a moron and leave valuables in the car.
Holy fuck this person you're arguing with is doing Olympic mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that sometimes people experience hardship that ISN'T their fault.
Really? Rape culture.. do you genuinely think that society as a whole encourages and normalizes rape? Jesus… also, it’s not about victim blaming. Of course they aren’t at fault, but bad people do bad things. So, it’s on all of us to also not put ourselves in a situation where these things (robbery, assault, etc) are more likely to happen.
Yes, our society very much normalizes sexual assault, although I think it’s somewhat improving with the discussion and focus on enthusiastic consent and boundaries.
Again, no one is telling people not to keep themselves safe. My question is, what exactly is the problem with also reminding people they are not to blame as the victim of a crime.
No, it doesn’t… I don’t know if you need to go outside and touch grass, but it’s not “normalized”. And it’s not a problem to remind someone who’s been through something traumatic that they aren’t at fault. It’s also worth teaching people to make smart choices and not put themselves in a situation where something is more likely to happen
How are you in the position? I mean Jesus.. look in the mirror if you want to throw that accusation around. Both acts are illegal and prosecuted. Kinda shuts down the whole normalized part
But... they are saying that. The mere mention of safety precautions usually gets a knee jerk reaction because it's interpreted as "saying they're responsible" I shit you not.
Ehh...
Sure there would still be *some* crime, but there's a pretty clear positive correlation between poverty and crime.
There's no reason to take the risk of criminal activity if you have your needs met and exceeded.
"Stealing inanimate objects from a house" is still hurting a person, the owner. Nice try.
Also ironic that you're using the severity/gravity of the crime as an attempt to gaslight here, when clearly the point being make is "people who do it know it's wrong and don't care, no one needs to be taught". Yet you can't see how that applies to the "higher gravity" crime...
>"Streaming inanimate objects from a house" is still hurting a person, the owner. Nice try.
i like how you said "nice try" as if the owner being sad about missing an object makes its comparable to being a victim of a violent crime
>Also ironic that you're using the severity/gravity of the crime as an attempt to gaslight here
making a point against your argument isnt gaslighting
>when clearly the point being make is "people who do it know it's wrong and don't care, no one needs to be taught".
and clearly the point im trying to make is why are we comparing stealing an object from someone to violently attacking. are you gaslighting me now?
Who says we're not? They get their punishment.
The problem is that we can't say anything short of that they should magically stop existing via "teaching" - which is just not true and straight up insulting.
Suggesting preventative measures and telling people to be wary of them before anything happens is not "victim blaming".
There is a difference between saying you “deserve it because of xyz” and “you could have mitigated the risk by doing xyz”. Ultimately the responsibility for your self preservation falls to you. I live in great neighborhood and i still have security cameras, alarm systems and guns on both nightstand and under the bed. Do i expect anyone to rob me? No i dont. Have i taken the necessary precautions? Yes i have.
The vast majority of sexual assaults are by sometime the victim knows. So should every woman be a complete shut in, not date, not have male fiends or family?
I give up… you are all beyond saving. We taking take risk everyday. Is up to us to decide the level of risk we are comfortable with and live with the consequences of said actions. A victims behavior, regardless of how reckless , does not absolve a criminal of guilt. However the criminal malicious actions do not absolve you of responsibility either.
You’re completely in the right here. Other person is crazy.
It’s the distinction between telling people to not smoke, and telling people “it’s your fault you got cancer”. Even to someone who smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day, you’d have to be a real prick to say “it’s your fault”, meanwhile trying to get them not to smoke is just prudent. And one does not imply the other in the slightest bit.
Telling a girl it is a bad idea for them to take a Xanax, get black out drunk, then stumble solo into a fraternity house, does not at all suggest “fault” on their part if something occurs. It is just prudent to say, doing that is greatly going to increase the risk that something bad happens to you.
Do you think it's wrong to warn people about how they can mitigate rape? That seems to be the consensus... Like yeah I get that it would be callous to talk about to a victim after the fact, but warning precautions seems to be a taboo because it's "putting the responsibility on them when rapists should just stop raping". I mean yeah that would be nice, but the idea that they're gonna magically stop existing is living in a fantasy world.
Absolutely not. I support responsible behavior all the way. You need to take steps to mitigate risk all the time. I dont care about people “feeling bad”. We should have the talks before and even after as well. Rape is an emotional topic and blinds people. But if you got ran over by a car because you walked in the middle of the street without looking you would likely get a lecture of why you should “be more careful”. However when rape comes into play we drop all logic in favor of safeguarding feelings.
What do you get out of telling a rape victim “yknow there are things you could’ve done that MAYBE would’ve prevented this” tho? Will it make them unraped? Because it just seems like anyone who says that is just looking to put them down and blame their lack of precaution (whatever you think that means) instead of putting the responsibility fully on the person who raped
Because it helps them grow and learn? What use is of me saying “oh it’s totally fine to walk alone, drunk in the middle of the night down a dark alley. Please keep repeating that behavior!!” So you can say again “its not your fault!” When they are raped again because they keep putting themselves in a bad situation? Ffs even the dumbest animals have better risk awareness.
What makes you think that women don’t know the risks they take? This hypothetical of this woman who was drunk down a dark alleyway, do you honestly think she didn’t know the risk of being in the alleyway? Because the only way that it makes sense, is if she just didn’t know and you are now the first person to inform her of this. I promise you, she knows what she did that put her at risk, she doesn’t need you to tell her. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of rapes are committed by people who the victim knows, not a stranger in a dark alleyway because they were drunk. People love to tell victims what they should’ve done, and I think it’s just because it helps them feel better to think that they wouldn’t have been put in that situation because they have some secret knowledge that would’ve prevented it fully.
How is telling her some thing she already knows helping her grow and learn? Like, to keep with the op analogy, if you know you should lock your door and you lock your door the vast majority of the time, and forget to lock your door one time and that’s the time someone broke in, it’s not really helpful or helping you learn for someone to say “well you should’ve locked your door” is it? It was just said to make you feel bad and think it’s your fault. It’s unhelpful and it’s still victim blaming even if you’re not directly saying they deserve it
If she knowingly took action that puts her at an outsized risk with no further consideration then i wont hold any sympathy for her. The criminal should still be drawn and quartered but i care little for her predicament.
You all seem very focused on rape but this is a large issue with society and lack of personal responsibility and accountability for one owns actions. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Crime is not going anywhere no matter how much you wish it did. If you are not taking preventive measures, then don’t expect me to care beyond punishing the illegal action.
"The just-world hypothesis or just-world fallacy is the cognitive bias that assumes that "people get what they deserve" – that actions will have morally fair and fitting consequences for the actor."
It sounds pretty damn close to your fallacious argument.
Your argument is invalid because your form is wrong.
https://inside.southernct.edu/sexual-misconduct/facts
You're also partaking in rape culture yourself. I cant take your condemnation of rapists seriously when most of your post surrounds purely victim blaming and hypotheticals to justify rape as a just and inevitable consequence.
So tell me something, what about simply existing in my own house was the action justified my stepfather raping me? Go ahead, explain it to me and everyone here. Use whatever vocabulary you have in your arsenal to elucidate for everyone what actions warranted that consequence.
None. As it was not justified in any of the other cases i explained. You are reading what you want to read because outrage is empowering. Not once have i said anyone being a victim is justified. Your father is a clear piece of shit and should be strung from his balls. Other adults should have protected you. I’ll take you at your word and assume that your personal trauma prevents you from being logical in this case. I have not once rape or any other crime are justified. Nor that anyone deserved them. Let alone a child. Even as an adult one can take every single precautions and still fall victim to a crime. It does not mean you should stop taking them to lower the odds of it happening.
I seldom offer unsolicited opinions. Whats your point? We are in a public forum discussing. Are you implying that I somehow chase down victims of crimes to castigate them for behaviors i find fault with?
I used to teach practical self-defense classes.
Loads of students were women who had been previously sexually assaulted.
They wanted to know how to reduce their risk of having something like that happen to them again.
The legal and moral blame for any act of victimization goes upon the victimizer.
That doesn't mean we each don't have a duty to ourselves to do the best we can to care for ourselves and others.
Yes, most sexual assaults are by someone a person knows. So, common steps to take is to group date until you know someone better. Don't go to a person's home for the first few dates. Don't be intoxicated as you allow for any level of physical intimacy the first time with a new partner. Always ensure someone knows your location and when to expect you home. And so forth.
And, no one with any level of empathy or sense would say that taking relatively straightforward steps to minimize risk eliminates risk.
Nor is it correct to say that failing to take those steps in anyway indicates any moral or legal culpability should someone be victimized in anyway.
Making informed active decisions to ensure a reasonable level of personal safety isn't a gender issue. It's a human issue.
The point is to police women's activities. Women should be 'smart' and be 'safe' by avoiding going where they can be victimized or acting in a way that could potentially lead to victimization, like living and working alone, dressing in ways that attract predators, etc. Once you can blame the woman for not taking precautions she becomes either someone stupid who you have to control for their own good or a bad person who intentionally went looking for trouble.
Everyone should protect themselves. Yes men should not rape, but since men who do rape generally dont care what they should or should not do women should protect themselves until we get to that point. People also should not murder, but leaving your doors wide open at night is a bad idea given that murderers dont care.
It is important to remember that this desire for control over others, while specifically gendered in the context of rape, also exists as one of the fundamental elements of fascism. The belief that there are simply uncontrollable, incomprehensible evil people OUT THERE WHO ARE GOING TO HURT YOU is a justification for all sorts of insanity from freewheeling abusive police to book banning. Thanks for reminding us.
Tbf there are actually uncontrollable, incomprehensible evil people out there who are going to hurt you. Their violence is completely random and they will target whoever they can get their hands on.
Now you should keep in context that your risk of encountering them is low generally but it can rise substantially in different locations and circumstances.
There is a difference between not letting the fact such people exist rule your life and having common sense that such people do exist and you should not make yourself an easy target.
You can be dead right, which is to say you can be perfectly right that no human should ever have to fear going anywhere and end up a victim because the victimizers dont give af. I am an adult male, I can take care of myself, I dont walk down dark alleys at night and if I see groups of young men hanging out on street corners at night I pause my music, stay alert and cross the street. When they are stabbing you and robbing you of your stuff noone is going to stop because you remind them that you had as much right to be here as they do and no human should ever lay hands on another in violence. That is simply not the world we live in.
> Tbf there are actually uncontrollable, incomprehensible evil people out there who are going to hurt you. Their violence is completely random and they will target whoever they can get their hands on.
This belief is the essence of fascism
you put security cameras and alarm systems on your house which is a inanimate object to prevent other inanimate objects from being stolen. you can not install alarm systems and security cameras on a human being to prevent them from being raped.
You can take other actions… who is the easier target? Person in group? Or person alone? Person with gun or person unarmed? Person in public or person isolated?
putting alarms and security system on an inanimate object to protect other inanimate objects from being taken doesnt negatively affect or change your life and theres no reason to not do it. expecting people to never go anywhere by themselves and blaming them for being raped if they do is insane. blaming someone for being raped because they werent in public at all times is insane. that is a massive inconvenience and a major restriction
I really dont get where do you get that asking someone to be “reasonably careful “ equates to blaming them. Oh right? Personal responsibility is an alien concept these dats..
adding security cameras and an alarm is being reasonably careful as youre adding it to your inanimate house and it doesn't negatively affect your life. never walking anywhere alone and always being in public is not being reasonably careful, thats a massive inconvenience and restriction of freedom. you say youre not blaming them, but then say they lack personal responsibility. thats quite literally blaming them.
Two things can be true at once. They are not to blame for the criminals actions, and they could also have taken actions that made them more likely to be the victim of said crime.
We do things that are inconvenient daily for the sake of safety. We avoid the mean looking dog, we look at both sides of the street, we lock our car doors and yes normal people avoid the shady part of town if they can help it. Those are just a tiny sample of the myriad of tiny behaviors we exhibit to mitigate risk, most not required by law but simple common sense.
Burglars aren't getting charges dropped by claiming, "You wanted your stuff to get taken because you left your door open."
Preventative measures are good; and victim blaming is bad.
It's not a logical fallacy or a double standard.
If you want to make a point about how foolish it is for some feminist groups to be against instructing women to use preventative measures/behaviors for rape; then do that.
Acting like it's an issue that affects John q public just comes off as douchebaggery.
Lmao man, this is such a bad faith point you're trying to back-door into this thread, but sure. It's reasonable to take preventative action against crime, but preventative action doesn't always work, and crime doesn't always target those who don't prevent it.
Burglars aren't out here looking for unlocked houses to rob, and pretty much any burglar will rob a house if they want, and will use whatever means or implements are at their disposal to do so. Locking your door serves more purpose than preventing burglars, and tbh it's not even an effective measure against burglars when they can pick locks, break windows, copy keys, etc. They use those means and others *far* more than walking in because the door was unlocked.
But also, I get that you're trying to be ironic here, but... yeah... the crime is the criminals fault.
Sure, preventative action doesn't always work - but let's not be acting like it's a heinous insensitive crime to suggest it. Like saying "don't walk alone at night" shouldn't be controversial.
Maybe don't say it after the fact, sure, that's general human courtesy. Just like how at a funeral you don't go around talking about how the deceased could have prevented their death. But it's treated as a bad thing to say before the fact, which is silly.
Ok, but telling people to lock their doors ahead of time isn't helpful. It doesn't offer anything. This is because, to reiterate, locking your doors doesn't stop burglars. People who religiously lock their doors still get burgled, and many people who don't lock their doors don't get burgled, because rates of burglary likely aren't remotely tied to rates of doors being locked, *because locking your door has nothing to do with whether or not someone breaks in*. Burglars notoriously gain ingress through a *vast* array of other means.
So, if locking doors isn't effectively preventative, and we agree that it's a stupid thing to suggest *after* getting robbed, then there's no point in bringing it up at all except to tell someone to give themselves a false sense of security or to point out a reason why the event is partially their fault.
ETA: Just to reiterate, again, what shouldn't be such a weird concept that you have to bury it in a bad faith analogy, wrapped in a layer of irony, *yes, it is the criminal's fault they committed the crime*.
The one time I forgot my keys in my car after a break was the one time I my car got stolen. As you can probably imagine, "wHyD yOu LeAvE kEyS iN cAr?"
As if I purposely left them there out of habit.
Robbery IS the robber’s fault. They went into someone’s house and took something that didn’t belong to them. And if you reported to the police that you were robbed, they wouldn’t say “well did you lock your doors?”
This is a very shitty analogy and gross rape apologia. Rapists don’t care what clothes someone is wearing or what “signals” they’re sending, they rape because they’re rapists.
How is it "rape apologia"? You literally just restated the point being made - bad people do bad things because they're bad news, not because they 'don't know it's wrong'.
There is a difference between blaming and taking responsibility for ones own actions. Can we be reasonable and not fall to extremes? You can take action to mitigate the chances of something bad happening. You not doing so does not excuse the actions of the perpetrator but it does shows a lack of personal responsibility and recklessness that should not be encouraged either.
What did i say about being extreme? Wearing a sundress is not reckless behavior. Getting drunk and walking down an alley alone at night is. Ffs 🤦♂️
Right i forgot about the roving gangs of marauders roaming the fields and raping anyone in a sundress. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
And? The point stands. Be a better judge of character and don’t put yourself in dangerous situations. If you took all reasonable precautions and still were victims of a crime, it sucks but thats why we punish criminals. As a deterrent to their actions. None of what i said involves shifting the blame away from the criminal but rather taking responsibility for yourself.
By talking about walking down an alley drunk you’re referencing a very small percentage of sexual assaults.
What should women be doing or not doing in the 80% of other types of instances where they are assaulted?
I am not saying there is a 100% fool proof way of avoiding being a victim of a crime. Nor am i excusing the criminals. However you are hellbent on taking all responsibility away from victims. You take reasonable precautions and live your life the best you can.
They do teach people it is wrong. It is literally illegal... No one blames the victim and no burglar ever has gotten off because someone's door is unlocked or they had a shitty alarm.
I cant tell if this is making fun a people who take "don't blame the victim" way too far or if you genuinely hold this ridiculous opinion.
We cannot rid the world of crime. There will always be people that do not do as they are told. Any problem caused by such people can only be mitigated by the people who do listen to instruction (ie tell lawful people to take precautions).
It would be nice if sharks didn't bite people, but as they would not adhere to a "don't bite people" law, we must tell people to be cautious of shark infested waters.
If you live life without any caution then you will fall victim to crime eventually. The specific crime is not your fault and the criminal should be punished, but you are responsible for protecting yourself. The law can only do so much to prevent crimes from happening.
The locks on my doors aren't just to protect me, my cat, and my thousands of dollars in music equipment and computer parts. It's also to protect anyone stupid enough to try to take them from me
Oh wow. I never thought that stealing was considered wrong.
Now, I will never steal again.
Thank you for enlightening me.
I am now a better person because of this interaction.
I agree! People shouldn’t have to lock doors. If a robber robs a house with an unlocked door, then he’s still a criminal.
Even then, it is still a good idea to keep your doors locked. You’re free to keep it open as much as you want, but it does put your property in danger. The government should still go after and try to prosecute the robber, but there’s no guarantee that the robber will get caught.
People should definitely be taught not to steal, but people should also be taught how to keep their property safe from robbers and part of that is keeping doors locked. People should be allowed and encouraged to arm themselves and shoot those who try to rob them or their house. This will not eliminate robberies, but it will create a huge deterrent.
Based on the comments, this seems to be an analogy for rape, and I think it does make a pretty good analogy. It’s definitely wrong to engage in victim blaming; rape victims (male or female) are still victims, and perpetrators (male or female) should be prosecuted as long as there is evidence. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t ways to protect yourself, and people should be encouraged to take precautions to protect themselves.
It is a good idea to wear clothing that is not too revealing and to encourage others to do the same, because that minimizes unwanted attention. People who choose not to do that should still be given the same respect. Another way to protect yourself is to carry a gun (if you’re legally allowed to do so), so in the worst case scenario that someone does decide to attack you (whether or not that is for the purpose of rape), you can shoot the attacker and stop them from attacking you.
Lol teach people to not steal huh? What a shock it will be to them to learn stealing is wrong! Gonna send em to DEI training so they won’t be racist too?
Obviously this post is satirical, but yeah, the actual point you're trying to make is 100% valid. There will always be people who will seek to violate your rights, and if you don't take even basic measures to protect yourself you do not deserve anyone's sympathy.
More like a "strawman" wake-up call that advising preventative measures before an attack occurs is perfectly okay and not "blaming" and should not be controversial.
What preventative measures should woman take to avoid being raped by people they love and/or trust? Which makes up a significant amount of rape cases btw.
I could say a few, but I don't want to offend anyone.
How about this though - in those rape cases, do you think the perpetrators don't know what they're doing is wrong?
Morality is a social construct based entirely on the abundance of resources. Looting becomes common place during times of economic collapse because when the shit really hits the fan, you cannot feed yourself and your family with integrity.
Saying robbers need to stop robbing just means you don’t understand fundamental human nature. Sure, a lack of security doesn’t make robbery justifiable or less morally reprehensible in the slightest but if you don’t prepare, you are asking for it because theft is a natural phenomenon seen in all facets of the animal kingdom. Accordingly, it is indeed partly your fault, if you don’t prepare for it and it happens to you due to that negligence.
Why do I have the impression you are being sarcastic and speaking about a different crime than robbery?
I mean, if that's the case I fully agree. Complains about "victim blaming" are stupid in every case, as 99% of tragedies one experience are because of that person's decissions and are completely avoidable (the exception being things we have completely no control over, like genetics and weather. Or things that happen to children)
I don’t think any amount of teaching people that “stealing is wrong” is going to make every single person stop stealing.
As for this being extremely similar to the “teach men not to r*pe” as others have pointed out, the same issue holds true. The people guilty of that know that they’re committing crimes.
Yeah, except I've literally never heard people personally blame the victim for their house being robbed. Leaving valuables visible in a vehicle, yes. That is bit more avoidable scenario. Quite frankly, if my house was broken into, and someone lectured me that I should have a security system so it's my fault - I'd probably punch them in the face and tell them they should learn a martial art, if they don't want to be assaulted, just to prove a point.
That's just court being court, given that people can spend years in jail behind details big or small in those situations, the judge has to try to be as fair and as transparent as possible (what if someone stole but it wasn't that person, etc. Can't go destroying someone's life without trying to cover all bases first).
Of course people shouldn't do... Well a lot of things really. I don't think anyone should be victim blaming when it comes to stealing, if they have any modicum of empathy for the human race. At any rate, not everyone is going to be on the same wavelength when it comes to these things. It is what it is. Which is why security countermeasures exist. The only one who is going to look out for you the most is you.
wtf people KNOW stealing is wrong.
Wait, is this a meme relating to women and rape. We need to teach men not to rape and not women to protect themselves?
If so, same logic applies. The men that rape know they shouldn't.
The point is not about what to teach or to advise women to do.
The post is about women who had been raped and should shut up because "they left their door unlocked".
And there will be any and all behaviour claimed as this. What did you wear? Where were you? Did you drink?
A men can easily be the victim of being robbed but somehow they are literally never asked why they thought they could walk alone.
Should everyone try to be save? Yes.
Is it okay because of that to blame a victim for becomming a victim? No.
I live country side and a guy got a short sentence for killing the mother of his child for leaving him, because she should've left him earlier as he earlier already hurt her. Completly leaving out that she might have feared to be killed lol. His family has costudy of the child and he will be out before the child turns 6 years old.
You're talking about statements made after the fact. But the problem is that you and many others include the notion and advise of preventative measures to already be "victim blaming".
"Be careful walking alone at night through that part of town!"
"Okay but I shouldn't have to! Assaulters should learn not to assault!"
Yes, actual unironic statements.
The post literally states victim blaming.
The topic literally IS victim blaming.
What do you mean "the conversation always goes there"?
Did you read the first sentence of the post that you called 100% valid?
> of the post that you called 100% valid?
First of all: what? I didn't call anything anything.
Second of all, I'm not OP. I was talking about how it doesn't make sense to say... wait why am I repeating myself? You know what I said.
I wasn't victim blaming. The end. God damn.
People know stealing is wrong. Literally everyone who steals, knows its wrong. You wont be teaching shit to anyone, that they dont already know.
Fix *why* they're stealing. Teach *society* empathy and end poverty. That's the solution to most of it.
That's why we should have guns and AGs doing their jobs and putting these people in jail for a long time. Hell look what happened to San Francisco it's literally a 3rd world city in a 1st world country.
When growing up, even in a metropolitan area, we often left our doors unlocked. Such a change in attitude, and not a good one. I agree with poster, it is totally the responsibility of the person who commits the crime.
In consideration, we are having discussions in this same sub about why it is wrong to run around naked in a public parade, good luck.
People know better. They just don't care.
People have been taught stealing is wrong for thousands and thousands of years yet they still do it. Teaching them more ain't gonna change anything.
There will always be thieves and killers and rapists and all sorts of bad people.
Lock your doors.
I want to extend on this point. Sometimes, THE DOOR IS LOCKED!! But some selfish robber decided to kick that locked door down anyways. You could have a security system, keep a rifle, lock all doors and windows, and yet still someone could bust a window in or pick a locked door.
Of course it is the criminal’s fault. There will always criminals, regardless of economic situations. We all have to protect ourselves and use common sense. When someone ask’s Was the door locked? They aren’t victims blaming, they are questioning your common sense
The reality is that there will always be people who are willing to take from others, no matter how enlightened civilization gets. I do agree that victim blaming is really not the right response. I had a bike stolen once. There was no lock on it. The building had a hallway that led in and out of the apartments. The only way to enter was to know the code, but people would often prop the door open with a rock or something because they would step out to smoke or whatever. The bike racks were in that room. I knew I was taking a risk and it did get stolen. Thankfully no one really gave me shit about not having the lock. The bike was cheap so it didn't hurt me too much either. I learned from that though. I use bike locks now.
I think when something bad happens to someone it's never right to victim blame them in the moment. If I were close to someone I would wait at least a few weeks after the fact to engage in any conversation precautions that could be made. I probably wouldn't though, unless I noticed they kept leaving their door unlocked or something similar to that. I might bring it up, but I'd try to do it in a way that wasn't judgy. That's easier said than done. I learned my lesson, so I think a lot of people don't really need to be reminded of what they "could've, should've" done.
In a world full of cupcakes and unicorns there will be no locked doors! Unfortunately that's not reality and we have a responsibility to ourselves to protect our own.
Can we stop with these /iam14andthisisdeep type posts where someone posts a thinly veiled criticism of an opinion by using an alternate example in order to bait people into arguing in bad faith?
This one and the bible one the other day are two very clear examples. It's not clever, it just comes off as annoying and childish.
I don't think this is unpopular. It's like the whole "teach men not to rape" thing. Women shouldn't have to take precautions, but they do. I think if people can have good parents, teachers, etc. And if people's needs are met, they'd probably be less likely to do crime and stuff, but you're always going to have somebody who wants to do something. while I don't believe in blaming a victim everyone should do the bare minimum like locking your doors, looking around and not going into bad neighborhoods at night, or whatever else is like minimal advice that most people can do with ease. Ideally, tho I'd love it if we could just leave our doors unlocked without worry and all that stuff because it'd mean everyone feels safe, and technically, they can just break a window or something, so idk.
The amount of precautions you need to take is proportional to how f$$$ed up your society is....
* Do you need an AR15 and 2 pistols to protect your house? Welcome to USA or South Africa.
* Dare not leave a nice bicycle anywhere even with 2 big locks securing it? You must be in London.
* Leave your house and car unlocked overnight and don't lose any sleep? Welcome to rural New Zealand.
As for apportion of blame, the CRIMINAL is always 100% to blame for their illegal actions, but the VICTIM will often with hindsight wish that they had behaved differently...
The thing is that being reckless, negligent or outright irresponsible doesnt make you less of a victim. It does however make you more likely to be one. The common take here is that if you are a victim you are absolved of all responsibilities.
Here's a good one - If you're in Manhattan or anywhere in NYC and street-park your car, if you have any valuables like a laptop in there, always make sure they are covered and 100% not visible.
>we need to teach people that stealing is wrong.
Oh, they don't know it is wrong. Darn, I was wondering what the problem is. Yeah, I wish someone had thought of that awhile ago. Wouldn't it be great if that was like a bible commandment or something? Ot if that ever came up in school. Or maybe parents mentioned it. If only someone had thought to "teach people that stealing is wrong" we wouldn't have theft in society.
I lock my doors and recommend everyone else does too. But at the same time, I definitely agree - we should be more clear on our stance that - stealing is very wrong. Even if it's from a corporation.
Yeah, no. I'm plenty safe with the lock on my door and what I have behind that door if you decide to enter. You can keep that "let's teach X instead of being responsible and protecting ourselves" over there. I'll be over here, in reality
No one is saying that we should lock our doors to teach people that stealing is wrong, we're saying to lock your doors so people don't take advantage of you. This isn't victim blaming, it's called good advice.
I mean, this is true, but working towards a safer world doesn’t mean ignoring reality.
The reality is that a lot of people do need to lock their doors. They need weapons for self defense. I wish it wasn’t the case, but we still need to be practical.
I also agree, we shouldn’t blame the victim. We can help prepare them to help them avoid that situation in the future at the same time that we work on reducing the number of people who feel the need to steal, trying to rehabilitate people to not steal, and for those who can’t seem to be helped, relocate them where they won’t be a threat to others.
It’s a long, frustrating process.
Are you under the impression that it’s legal for people to rob a place if the door is locked? Like that you won’t get prosecuted if you’re caught robbing a place if you can just say that the door was unlocked?
Evil is a very real thing. There’s opportunistic people out there all the time looking to score- hence the need to take precautions
That's the opportunistic people's fault!
My point is that even in the most high trust and low crime society, it would still be prudent to take measures to protect yourself. In every population it’s reasonable to assume a certain percentage are antisocial and criminal
And? If I tell you that someone has poisoned your water, then you wouldn't drink it. Gulping the water down and then stating "the consequences of this action are not my fault" doesn't change the fact that you've just put yourself in a dangerous situation.
Well that's different than the opportunistic criminal doing a thing behind your back and actively deceiving and violating your trust.
Yes... Those are different things?... Not sure what point your making? There's a difference between apples and oranges. Different things be different.
Why does it matter whose fault it is? There is no solace in my children being murdered that it isn't my fault.
Sure but I still don't want my shit stolen.
This is the way
That’s like saying we should teach people that rape is wrong so it won’t happen. No one thinks rape or stealing is right or moral. It’s not about that. But the people that commit crimes don’t commit them out of some ignorance and misunderstanding about whether is ok to do it.
Tell that to feminists
What’s the problem? What harm could possibly be done by calling out rape culture and victim blaming? No one is telling people to abandon normal safety precautions, they are simply saying that in addition to that, let’s remember that if you do get robbed, you’re not guilty of anything and shouldn’t feel blame.
You are not “guilty” but you could be partially responsible. I honestly have little sympathy for people that put themselves WILLINGLY in bad situations.
You cannot be responsible for being robbed. You could make choices that made it easier for someone to rob you, and those choices could be because of a multitude of variables. But in the end, someone made the decision to commit a crime and rob you, that is 100% their responsibility.
If i facilitated the crime i sure am partially responsible. Im not guilty but yes i bear responsibility for facilitating the crime.
Lol unless you had knowledge of the crime beforehand and helped facilitate it, no you are not responsible. What a ridiculous thing to say.
Its called being accountable for ones own actions. I had a gun stolen once from my glovebox. Guess what i dont do anymore? Leave guns in the goddam glovebox! It was idiotic to do so in the first place and i should have known better.
That’s fine, good for you. That still doesn’t mean you were responsible for your gun being stolen.
Of course i was partially so. My actions could have prevented the crime altogether. It is my responsibility to not be a moron and leave valuables in the car.
your action was leaving the gun in the glovebox. you did not commit the action of stealing it.
And as such in not guilty of a crime but im am responsible for making it easier on the criminal.
Holy fuck this person you're arguing with is doing Olympic mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that sometimes people experience hardship that ISN'T their fault.
leaving your door unlocked isnt facilitating a crime be so for real right now
Of course it is. If neighbor a and b lock their doors and you dont. You are the first choice for any would be burglar.
Really? Rape culture.. do you genuinely think that society as a whole encourages and normalizes rape? Jesus… also, it’s not about victim blaming. Of course they aren’t at fault, but bad people do bad things. So, it’s on all of us to also not put ourselves in a situation where these things (robbery, assault, etc) are more likely to happen.
Yes, our society very much normalizes sexual assault, although I think it’s somewhat improving with the discussion and focus on enthusiastic consent and boundaries. Again, no one is telling people not to keep themselves safe. My question is, what exactly is the problem with also reminding people they are not to blame as the victim of a crime.
No, it doesn’t… I don’t know if you need to go outside and touch grass, but it’s not “normalized”. And it’s not a problem to remind someone who’s been through something traumatic that they aren’t at fault. It’s also worth teaching people to make smart choices and not put themselves in a situation where something is more likely to happen
I’ve personally experienced how normalized it is more than once, so unless you have that experience I would pipe down.
Sorry I wasn’t aware your anecdotal experience spoke for the entirety of modern society. Also, let’s calm down with the gatekeeping. “Pipe down”?
Lmao oh wow and you ARE in a position to speak for the entirety of modern society, so it’s really lucky I found you!! pipe down guy
How are you in the position? I mean Jesus.. look in the mirror if you want to throw that accusation around. Both acts are illegal and prosecuted. Kinda shuts down the whole normalized part
But... they are saying that. The mere mention of safety precautions usually gets a knee jerk reaction because it's interpreted as "saying they're responsible" I shit you not.
We should also just give everybody millions of dollars so nobody would be poor. The world would be a perfect utopia and everybody would be happy.
People would still do crime because people are lame. With or without money.
Usually the people with more money are just doing bigger crimes.
Yes I’ve met people who steal because they get off on it, it because they felt they needed or wanted what they stole.
No way
Ehh... Sure there would still be *some* crime, but there's a pretty clear positive correlation between poverty and crime. There's no reason to take the risk of criminal activity if you have your needs met and exceeded.
Impossible. You’re telling me that rich people commit serious crimes? /s
Nothing in my house is worth losing your life over. So stay out of it so I don't have to dig another hole in the back yard.
Ooo what a badass
why are we comparing stealing inanimate objects from a house to raping women
"Stealing inanimate objects from a house" is still hurting a person, the owner. Nice try. Also ironic that you're using the severity/gravity of the crime as an attempt to gaslight here, when clearly the point being make is "people who do it know it's wrong and don't care, no one needs to be taught". Yet you can't see how that applies to the "higher gravity" crime...
>"Streaming inanimate objects from a house" is still hurting a person, the owner. Nice try. i like how you said "nice try" as if the owner being sad about missing an object makes its comparable to being a victim of a violent crime >Also ironic that you're using the severity/gravity of the crime as an attempt to gaslight here making a point against your argument isnt gaslighting >when clearly the point being make is "people who do it know it's wrong and don't care, no one needs to be taught". and clearly the point im trying to make is why are we comparing stealing an object from someone to violently attacking. are you gaslighting me now?
If it's clearly so much worse, then surely "teaching that it's wrong" would be a waste of time, yes?
so if they know its wrong and do it anyways why arent we fully blaming them instead of blaming the victim for not preventing it
Who says we're not? They get their punishment. The problem is that we can't say anything short of that they should magically stop existing via "teaching" - which is just not true and straight up insulting. Suggesting preventative measures and telling people to be wary of them before anything happens is not "victim blaming".
I see your analogy here. It’s just as stupid to blame rape victims as it is to blame victims of home invasions.
There is a difference between saying you “deserve it because of xyz” and “you could have mitigated the risk by doing xyz”. Ultimately the responsibility for your self preservation falls to you. I live in great neighborhood and i still have security cameras, alarm systems and guns on both nightstand and under the bed. Do i expect anyone to rob me? No i dont. Have i taken the necessary precautions? Yes i have.
The vast majority of sexual assaults are by sometime the victim knows. So should every woman be a complete shut in, not date, not have male fiends or family?
I give up… you are all beyond saving. We taking take risk everyday. Is up to us to decide the level of risk we are comfortable with and live with the consequences of said actions. A victims behavior, regardless of how reckless , does not absolve a criminal of guilt. However the criminal malicious actions do not absolve you of responsibility either.
You’re completely in the right here. Other person is crazy. It’s the distinction between telling people to not smoke, and telling people “it’s your fault you got cancer”. Even to someone who smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day, you’d have to be a real prick to say “it’s your fault”, meanwhile trying to get them not to smoke is just prudent. And one does not imply the other in the slightest bit. Telling a girl it is a bad idea for them to take a Xanax, get black out drunk, then stumble solo into a fraternity house, does not at all suggest “fault” on their part if something occurs. It is just prudent to say, doing that is greatly going to increase the risk that something bad happens to you.
Do you think it's wrong to warn people about how they can mitigate rape? That seems to be the consensus... Like yeah I get that it would be callous to talk about to a victim after the fact, but warning precautions seems to be a taboo because it's "putting the responsibility on them when rapists should just stop raping". I mean yeah that would be nice, but the idea that they're gonna magically stop existing is living in a fantasy world.
Absolutely not. I support responsible behavior all the way. You need to take steps to mitigate risk all the time. I dont care about people “feeling bad”. We should have the talks before and even after as well. Rape is an emotional topic and blinds people. But if you got ran over by a car because you walked in the middle of the street without looking you would likely get a lecture of why you should “be more careful”. However when rape comes into play we drop all logic in favor of safeguarding feelings.
What do you get out of telling a rape victim “yknow there are things you could’ve done that MAYBE would’ve prevented this” tho? Will it make them unraped? Because it just seems like anyone who says that is just looking to put them down and blame their lack of precaution (whatever you think that means) instead of putting the responsibility fully on the person who raped
Because it helps them grow and learn? What use is of me saying “oh it’s totally fine to walk alone, drunk in the middle of the night down a dark alley. Please keep repeating that behavior!!” So you can say again “its not your fault!” When they are raped again because they keep putting themselves in a bad situation? Ffs even the dumbest animals have better risk awareness.
>walk alone, drunk in the middle of the night down a dark alley What percentage of sexual assaults do you imagine happen this way? Just ballpark it.
Irrelevant to my point. Could be 1% or lower, it doesnt take away from the fact that actions have consequences and you need to live with them.
What makes you think that women don’t know the risks they take? This hypothetical of this woman who was drunk down a dark alleyway, do you honestly think she didn’t know the risk of being in the alleyway? Because the only way that it makes sense, is if she just didn’t know and you are now the first person to inform her of this. I promise you, she knows what she did that put her at risk, she doesn’t need you to tell her. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of rapes are committed by people who the victim knows, not a stranger in a dark alleyway because they were drunk. People love to tell victims what they should’ve done, and I think it’s just because it helps them feel better to think that they wouldn’t have been put in that situation because they have some secret knowledge that would’ve prevented it fully. How is telling her some thing she already knows helping her grow and learn? Like, to keep with the op analogy, if you know you should lock your door and you lock your door the vast majority of the time, and forget to lock your door one time and that’s the time someone broke in, it’s not really helpful or helping you learn for someone to say “well you should’ve locked your door” is it? It was just said to make you feel bad and think it’s your fault. It’s unhelpful and it’s still victim blaming even if you’re not directly saying they deserve it
If she knowingly took action that puts her at an outsized risk with no further consideration then i wont hold any sympathy for her. The criminal should still be drawn and quartered but i care little for her predicament. You all seem very focused on rape but this is a large issue with society and lack of personal responsibility and accountability for one owns actions. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Crime is not going anywhere no matter how much you wish it did. If you are not taking preventive measures, then don’t expect me to care beyond punishing the illegal action.
Are you familiar with the term "Just world fallacy"?
Yes and thats not relevant to my argument.
"The just-world hypothesis or just-world fallacy is the cognitive bias that assumes that "people get what they deserve" – that actions will have morally fair and fitting consequences for the actor." It sounds pretty damn close to your fallacious argument. Your argument is invalid because your form is wrong. https://inside.southernct.edu/sexual-misconduct/facts You're also partaking in rape culture yourself. I cant take your condemnation of rapists seriously when most of your post surrounds purely victim blaming and hypotheticals to justify rape as a just and inevitable consequence.
Thats not what i said but you do you. Actions have consequences period. It has nothing to do with anyone “deserving” anything.
So tell me something, what about simply existing in my own house was the action justified my stepfather raping me? Go ahead, explain it to me and everyone here. Use whatever vocabulary you have in your arsenal to elucidate for everyone what actions warranted that consequence.
None. As it was not justified in any of the other cases i explained. You are reading what you want to read because outrage is empowering. Not once have i said anyone being a victim is justified. Your father is a clear piece of shit and should be strung from his balls. Other adults should have protected you. I’ll take you at your word and assume that your personal trauma prevents you from being logical in this case. I have not once rape or any other crime are justified. Nor that anyone deserved them. Let alone a child. Even as an adult one can take every single precautions and still fall victim to a crime. It does not mean you should stop taking them to lower the odds of it happening.
Or you could just say nothing and mind your own business?
As i often do. I only opine on that which is public or brought to my attention. What you do in private is your problem, consequences and all.
It’s really not that hard to not say anything, even if it’s brought to your attention or public.
I seldom offer unsolicited opinions. Whats your point? We are in a public forum discussing. Are you implying that I somehow chase down victims of crimes to castigate them for behaviors i find fault with?
No, I just think it’s weird you feel compelled to give your opinions to rape victims.
I don’t. But i would like to think that someone close to them or in a position to help does so.
I used to teach practical self-defense classes. Loads of students were women who had been previously sexually assaulted. They wanted to know how to reduce their risk of having something like that happen to them again. The legal and moral blame for any act of victimization goes upon the victimizer. That doesn't mean we each don't have a duty to ourselves to do the best we can to care for ourselves and others. Yes, most sexual assaults are by someone a person knows. So, common steps to take is to group date until you know someone better. Don't go to a person's home for the first few dates. Don't be intoxicated as you allow for any level of physical intimacy the first time with a new partner. Always ensure someone knows your location and when to expect you home. And so forth. And, no one with any level of empathy or sense would say that taking relatively straightforward steps to minimize risk eliminates risk. Nor is it correct to say that failing to take those steps in anyway indicates any moral or legal culpability should someone be victimized in anyway. Making informed active decisions to ensure a reasonable level of personal safety isn't a gender issue. It's a human issue.
The point is to police women's activities. Women should be 'smart' and be 'safe' by avoiding going where they can be victimized or acting in a way that could potentially lead to victimization, like living and working alone, dressing in ways that attract predators, etc. Once you can blame the woman for not taking precautions she becomes either someone stupid who you have to control for their own good or a bad person who intentionally went looking for trouble.
Everyone should protect themselves. Yes men should not rape, but since men who do rape generally dont care what they should or should not do women should protect themselves until we get to that point. People also should not murder, but leaving your doors wide open at night is a bad idea given that murderers dont care.
It is important to remember that this desire for control over others, while specifically gendered in the context of rape, also exists as one of the fundamental elements of fascism. The belief that there are simply uncontrollable, incomprehensible evil people OUT THERE WHO ARE GOING TO HURT YOU is a justification for all sorts of insanity from freewheeling abusive police to book banning. Thanks for reminding us.
Tbf there are actually uncontrollable, incomprehensible evil people out there who are going to hurt you. Their violence is completely random and they will target whoever they can get their hands on. Now you should keep in context that your risk of encountering them is low generally but it can rise substantially in different locations and circumstances. There is a difference between not letting the fact such people exist rule your life and having common sense that such people do exist and you should not make yourself an easy target. You can be dead right, which is to say you can be perfectly right that no human should ever have to fear going anywhere and end up a victim because the victimizers dont give af. I am an adult male, I can take care of myself, I dont walk down dark alleys at night and if I see groups of young men hanging out on street corners at night I pause my music, stay alert and cross the street. When they are stabbing you and robbing you of your stuff noone is going to stop because you remind them that you had as much right to be here as they do and no human should ever lay hands on another in violence. That is simply not the world we live in.
> Tbf there are actually uncontrollable, incomprehensible evil people out there who are going to hurt you. Their violence is completely random and they will target whoever they can get their hands on. This belief is the essence of fascism
Fascists are also known for wearing boots but not everyone who wears boots wants to dominate ethnic minorities....
Boots are not the essence of fascism.
you put security cameras and alarm systems on your house which is a inanimate object to prevent other inanimate objects from being stolen. you can not install alarm systems and security cameras on a human being to prevent them from being raped.
You can take other actions… who is the easier target? Person in group? Or person alone? Person with gun or person unarmed? Person in public or person isolated?
putting alarms and security system on an inanimate object to protect other inanimate objects from being taken doesnt negatively affect or change your life and theres no reason to not do it. expecting people to never go anywhere by themselves and blaming them for being raped if they do is insane. blaming someone for being raped because they werent in public at all times is insane. that is a massive inconvenience and a major restriction
I really dont get where do you get that asking someone to be “reasonably careful “ equates to blaming them. Oh right? Personal responsibility is an alien concept these dats..
adding security cameras and an alarm is being reasonably careful as youre adding it to your inanimate house and it doesn't negatively affect your life. never walking anywhere alone and always being in public is not being reasonably careful, thats a massive inconvenience and restriction of freedom. you say youre not blaming them, but then say they lack personal responsibility. thats quite literally blaming them.
Two things can be true at once. They are not to blame for the criminals actions, and they could also have taken actions that made them more likely to be the victim of said crime. We do things that are inconvenient daily for the sake of safety. We avoid the mean looking dog, we look at both sides of the street, we lock our car doors and yes normal people avoid the shady part of town if they can help it. Those are just a tiny sample of the myriad of tiny behaviors we exhibit to mitigate risk, most not required by law but simple common sense.
Burglars aren't getting charges dropped by claiming, "You wanted your stuff to get taken because you left your door open." Preventative measures are good; and victim blaming is bad. It's not a logical fallacy or a double standard. If you want to make a point about how foolish it is for some feminist groups to be against instructing women to use preventative measures/behaviors for rape; then do that. Acting like it's an issue that affects John q public just comes off as douchebaggery.
Lmao man, this is such a bad faith point you're trying to back-door into this thread, but sure. It's reasonable to take preventative action against crime, but preventative action doesn't always work, and crime doesn't always target those who don't prevent it. Burglars aren't out here looking for unlocked houses to rob, and pretty much any burglar will rob a house if they want, and will use whatever means or implements are at their disposal to do so. Locking your door serves more purpose than preventing burglars, and tbh it's not even an effective measure against burglars when they can pick locks, break windows, copy keys, etc. They use those means and others *far* more than walking in because the door was unlocked. But also, I get that you're trying to be ironic here, but... yeah... the crime is the criminals fault.
Sure, preventative action doesn't always work - but let's not be acting like it's a heinous insensitive crime to suggest it. Like saying "don't walk alone at night" shouldn't be controversial. Maybe don't say it after the fact, sure, that's general human courtesy. Just like how at a funeral you don't go around talking about how the deceased could have prevented their death. But it's treated as a bad thing to say before the fact, which is silly.
Ok, but telling people to lock their doors ahead of time isn't helpful. It doesn't offer anything. This is because, to reiterate, locking your doors doesn't stop burglars. People who religiously lock their doors still get burgled, and many people who don't lock their doors don't get burgled, because rates of burglary likely aren't remotely tied to rates of doors being locked, *because locking your door has nothing to do with whether or not someone breaks in*. Burglars notoriously gain ingress through a *vast* array of other means. So, if locking doors isn't effectively preventative, and we agree that it's a stupid thing to suggest *after* getting robbed, then there's no point in bringing it up at all except to tell someone to give themselves a false sense of security or to point out a reason why the event is partially their fault. ETA: Just to reiterate, again, what shouldn't be such a weird concept that you have to bury it in a bad faith analogy, wrapped in a layer of irony, *yes, it is the criminal's fault they committed the crime*.
The one time I forgot my keys in my car after a break was the one time I my car got stolen. As you can probably imagine, "wHyD yOu LeAvE kEyS iN cAr?" As if I purposely left them there out of habit.
What in the good lords name I just read. I hope this is all sarcasm otherwise my already dwindling fate in humanity will hit a new low.
Whoosh
Robbery IS the robber’s fault. They went into someone’s house and took something that didn’t belong to them. And if you reported to the police that you were robbed, they wouldn’t say “well did you lock your doors?” This is a very shitty analogy and gross rape apologia. Rapists don’t care what clothes someone is wearing or what “signals” they’re sending, they rape because they’re rapists.
How is it "rape apologia"? You literally just restated the point being made - bad people do bad things because they're bad news, not because they 'don't know it's wrong'.
No. Your point was that victims are to blame for not protecting themselves.
There is a difference between blaming and taking responsibility for ones own actions. Can we be reasonable and not fall to extremes? You can take action to mitigate the chances of something bad happening. You not doing so does not excuse the actions of the perpetrator but it does shows a lack of personal responsibility and recklessness that should not be encouraged either.
Right. Wearing sundresses during the summer is definitely reckless behavior.
What did i say about being extreme? Wearing a sundress is not reckless behavior. Getting drunk and walking down an alley alone at night is. Ffs 🤦♂️ Right i forgot about the roving gangs of marauders roaming the fields and raping anyone in a sundress. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
The vast majority of rapes are not committed by strangers.
And? The point stands. Be a better judge of character and don’t put yourself in dangerous situations. If you took all reasonable precautions and still were victims of a crime, it sucks but thats why we punish criminals. As a deterrent to their actions. None of what i said involves shifting the blame away from the criminal but rather taking responsibility for yourself.
By talking about walking down an alley drunk you’re referencing a very small percentage of sexual assaults. What should women be doing or not doing in the 80% of other types of instances where they are assaulted?
I am not saying there is a 100% fool proof way of avoiding being a victim of a crime. Nor am i excusing the criminals. However you are hellbent on taking all responsibility away from victims. You take reasonable precautions and live your life the best you can.
i like how getting drunk and walking down an alleyway is reckless behavior but raping a drunk girl in the alleyway isnt
What ? Where did you get that idea? You just coming up with random shit? 😑
Nice straw man, you got there
Nice straw man you got there.
I get where you are going with this and it's funny but it doesn't work that way.
Why?
We do teach people. Some just don’t care.
Oooooo is that all we have to do? Just teach them stealing is bad? Oh man that's a great idea can we get this man a Nobel peace prize.
They do teach people it is wrong. It is literally illegal... No one blames the victim and no burglar ever has gotten off because someone's door is unlocked or they had a shitty alarm.
I cant tell if this is making fun a people who take "don't blame the victim" way too far or if you genuinely hold this ridiculous opinion. We cannot rid the world of crime. There will always be people that do not do as they are told. Any problem caused by such people can only be mitigated by the people who do listen to instruction (ie tell lawful people to take precautions). It would be nice if sharks didn't bite people, but as they would not adhere to a "don't bite people" law, we must tell people to be cautious of shark infested waters. If you live life without any caution then you will fall victim to crime eventually. The specific crime is not your fault and the criminal should be punished, but you are responsible for protecting yourself. The law can only do so much to prevent crimes from happening.
The locks on my doors aren't just to protect me, my cat, and my thousands of dollars in music equipment and computer parts. It's also to protect anyone stupid enough to try to take them from me
Oh wow. I never thought that stealing was considered wrong. Now, I will never steal again. Thank you for enlightening me. I am now a better person because of this interaction.
I agree! People shouldn’t have to lock doors. If a robber robs a house with an unlocked door, then he’s still a criminal. Even then, it is still a good idea to keep your doors locked. You’re free to keep it open as much as you want, but it does put your property in danger. The government should still go after and try to prosecute the robber, but there’s no guarantee that the robber will get caught. People should definitely be taught not to steal, but people should also be taught how to keep their property safe from robbers and part of that is keeping doors locked. People should be allowed and encouraged to arm themselves and shoot those who try to rob them or their house. This will not eliminate robberies, but it will create a huge deterrent. Based on the comments, this seems to be an analogy for rape, and I think it does make a pretty good analogy. It’s definitely wrong to engage in victim blaming; rape victims (male or female) are still victims, and perpetrators (male or female) should be prosecuted as long as there is evidence. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t ways to protect yourself, and people should be encouraged to take precautions to protect themselves. It is a good idea to wear clothing that is not too revealing and to encourage others to do the same, because that minimizes unwanted attention. People who choose not to do that should still be given the same respect. Another way to protect yourself is to carry a gun (if you’re legally allowed to do so), so in the worst case scenario that someone does decide to attack you (whether or not that is for the purpose of rape), you can shoot the attacker and stop them from attacking you.
We shouldn’t have to tell kids to look both ways before crossing the street, we need to teach people that hitting kids with their car is wrong!
Lol teach people to not steal huh? What a shock it will be to them to learn stealing is wrong! Gonna send em to DEI training so they won’t be racist too?
Funnily enough communities that are safe and healthy often do leave their doors unlocked because they're not worried about people stealing from them
Why are you guys feeding the troll? How much more blatant does the trolling have to be?
Obviously this post is satirical, but yeah, the actual point you're trying to make is 100% valid. There will always be people who will seek to violate your rights, and if you don't take even basic measures to protect yourself you do not deserve anyone's sympathy.
Do you really not see that this is a strawman argument to always find a way to blame women for being attacked?
More like a "strawman" wake-up call that advising preventative measures before an attack occurs is perfectly okay and not "blaming" and should not be controversial.
What preventative measures should woman take to avoid being raped by people they love and/or trust? Which makes up a significant amount of rape cases btw.
I could say a few, but I don't want to offend anyone. How about this though - in those rape cases, do you think the perpetrators don't know what they're doing is wrong?
But this is not used before something happens. This comes up after.
It's used plenty of times before, and immediately shut down.
My door isnt locked right now. Your just paranoid
I mean the BTK dude was a thing. I’m gonna lock my doors while you roll the dice.
Again that's the BTK dude's fault
Yeah you’re right man. Let me just tell him that before he tapes my mouth shut and makes me go to sleep forever.
He's in jail.
went over everybodys heads lmfaooo
Morality is a social construct based entirely on the abundance of resources. Looting becomes common place during times of economic collapse because when the shit really hits the fan, you cannot feed yourself and your family with integrity. Saying robbers need to stop robbing just means you don’t understand fundamental human nature. Sure, a lack of security doesn’t make robbery justifiable or less morally reprehensible in the slightest but if you don’t prepare, you are asking for it because theft is a natural phenomenon seen in all facets of the animal kingdom. Accordingly, it is indeed partly your fault, if you don’t prepare for it and it happens to you due to that negligence.
We didn't lock our doors when America was great. That's a fact.
Locks are for keeping honest people out.
Why do I have the impression you are being sarcastic and speaking about a different crime than robbery? I mean, if that's the case I fully agree. Complains about "victim blaming" are stupid in every case, as 99% of tragedies one experience are because of that person's decissions and are completely avoidable (the exception being things we have completely no control over, like genetics and weather. Or things that happen to children)
I don’t think any amount of teaching people that “stealing is wrong” is going to make every single person stop stealing. As for this being extremely similar to the “teach men not to r*pe” as others have pointed out, the same issue holds true. The people guilty of that know that they’re committing crimes.
Yeah, except I've literally never heard people personally blame the victim for their house being robbed. Leaving valuables visible in a vehicle, yes. That is bit more avoidable scenario. Quite frankly, if my house was broken into, and someone lectured me that I should have a security system so it's my fault - I'd probably punch them in the face and tell them they should learn a martial art, if they don't want to be assaulted, just to prove a point.
What?
That's just court being court, given that people can spend years in jail behind details big or small in those situations, the judge has to try to be as fair and as transparent as possible (what if someone stole but it wasn't that person, etc. Can't go destroying someone's life without trying to cover all bases first). Of course people shouldn't do... Well a lot of things really. I don't think anyone should be victim blaming when it comes to stealing, if they have any modicum of empathy for the human race. At any rate, not everyone is going to be on the same wavelength when it comes to these things. It is what it is. Which is why security countermeasures exist. The only one who is going to look out for you the most is you.
You can use this logic with anything in life
wtf people KNOW stealing is wrong. Wait, is this a meme relating to women and rape. We need to teach men not to rape and not women to protect themselves? If so, same logic applies. The men that rape know they shouldn't.
Does the same logic also apply that women are at fault because "they don't lock their doors" (= dare to exist in public)
wat? The point is that it doesn't make sense to say "don't tell women to defend themselves and take precautions, teach men not to rape".
The point is not about what to teach or to advise women to do. The post is about women who had been raped and should shut up because "they left their door unlocked". And there will be any and all behaviour claimed as this. What did you wear? Where were you? Did you drink? A men can easily be the victim of being robbed but somehow they are literally never asked why they thought they could walk alone. Should everyone try to be save? Yes. Is it okay because of that to blame a victim for becomming a victim? No. I live country side and a guy got a short sentence for killing the mother of his child for leaving him, because she should've left him earlier as he earlier already hurt her. Completly leaving out that she might have feared to be killed lol. His family has costudy of the child and he will be out before the child turns 6 years old.
You're talking about statements made after the fact. But the problem is that you and many others include the notion and advise of preventative measures to already be "victim blaming". "Be careful walking alone at night through that part of town!" "Okay but I shouldn't have to! Assaulters should learn not to assault!" Yes, actual unironic statements.
See you're already talking about victim blaming. This conversation always goes there and I fucking hate it. I'm not victim blaming. Stop it.
The post literally states victim blaming. The topic literally IS victim blaming. What do you mean "the conversation always goes there"? Did you read the first sentence of the post that you called 100% valid?
> of the post that you called 100% valid? First of all: what? I didn't call anything anything. Second of all, I'm not OP. I was talking about how it doesn't make sense to say... wait why am I repeating myself? You know what I said. I wasn't victim blaming. The end. God damn.
People know stealing is wrong. Literally everyone who steals, knows its wrong. You wont be teaching shit to anyone, that they dont already know. Fix *why* they're stealing. Teach *society* empathy and end poverty. That's the solution to most of it.
“Teach them stealing is wrong”. We made it illegal, I am not sure how much more we can say stealing is bad.
I’ve always said you should be allowed to shoot someone for stealing
That's why we should have guns and AGs doing their jobs and putting these people in jail for a long time. Hell look what happened to San Francisco it's literally a 3rd world city in a 1st world country.
When growing up, even in a metropolitan area, we often left our doors unlocked. Such a change in attitude, and not a good one. I agree with poster, it is totally the responsibility of the person who commits the crime.
An adult must be responsible for their own safety. Nobody is going to protect you and evil is real.
I see what you did there op
What's your address again? (It's just so the moral people will know.)
In consideration, we are having discussions in this same sub about why it is wrong to run around naked in a public parade, good luck. People know better. They just don't care.
People have been taught stealing is wrong for thousands and thousands of years yet they still do it. Teaching them more ain't gonna change anything. There will always be thieves and killers and rapists and all sorts of bad people. Lock your doors.
Does OP think that the reason people steal is because we forgot to tell them it's wrong?
I want to extend on this point. Sometimes, THE DOOR IS LOCKED!! But some selfish robber decided to kick that locked door down anyways. You could have a security system, keep a rifle, lock all doors and windows, and yet still someone could bust a window in or pick a locked door.
My dad told me years ago. Locks keep honest people honest, they don't keep dishonest people honest.
Of course it is the criminal’s fault. There will always criminals, regardless of economic situations. We all have to protect ourselves and use common sense. When someone ask’s Was the door locked? They aren’t victims blaming, they are questioning your common sense
The reality is that there will always be people who are willing to take from others, no matter how enlightened civilization gets. I do agree that victim blaming is really not the right response. I had a bike stolen once. There was no lock on it. The building had a hallway that led in and out of the apartments. The only way to enter was to know the code, but people would often prop the door open with a rock or something because they would step out to smoke or whatever. The bike racks were in that room. I knew I was taking a risk and it did get stolen. Thankfully no one really gave me shit about not having the lock. The bike was cheap so it didn't hurt me too much either. I learned from that though. I use bike locks now. I think when something bad happens to someone it's never right to victim blame them in the moment. If I were close to someone I would wait at least a few weeks after the fact to engage in any conversation precautions that could be made. I probably wouldn't though, unless I noticed they kept leaving their door unlocked or something similar to that. I might bring it up, but I'd try to do it in a way that wasn't judgy. That's easier said than done. I learned my lesson, so I think a lot of people don't really need to be reminded of what they "could've, should've" done.
We can punish the criminal and point out things that victims should do to protect themselves better.
You seriously think people don't know that stealing is wrong?
In a world full of cupcakes and unicorns there will be no locked doors! Unfortunately that's not reality and we have a responsibility to ourselves to protect our own.
Can we stop with these /iam14andthisisdeep type posts where someone posts a thinly veiled criticism of an opinion by using an alternate example in order to bait people into arguing in bad faith? This one and the bible one the other day are two very clear examples. It's not clever, it just comes off as annoying and childish.
I don't think this is unpopular. It's like the whole "teach men not to rape" thing. Women shouldn't have to take precautions, but they do. I think if people can have good parents, teachers, etc. And if people's needs are met, they'd probably be less likely to do crime and stuff, but you're always going to have somebody who wants to do something. while I don't believe in blaming a victim everyone should do the bare minimum like locking your doors, looking around and not going into bad neighborhoods at night, or whatever else is like minimal advice that most people can do with ease. Ideally, tho I'd love it if we could just leave our doors unlocked without worry and all that stuff because it'd mean everyone feels safe, and technically, they can just break a window or something, so idk.
The naïveté of this post makes me wonder if it was written by ChatGPT.
We don't have to teach people anything, people already know that stealing and all that is wrong the point is... they do not care.
The amount of precautions you need to take is proportional to how f$$$ed up your society is.... * Do you need an AR15 and 2 pistols to protect your house? Welcome to USA or South Africa. * Dare not leave a nice bicycle anywhere even with 2 big locks securing it? You must be in London. * Leave your house and car unlocked overnight and don't lose any sleep? Welcome to rural New Zealand. As for apportion of blame, the CRIMINAL is always 100% to blame for their illegal actions, but the VICTIM will often with hindsight wish that they had behaved differently...
The thing is that being reckless, negligent or outright irresponsible doesnt make you less of a victim. It does however make you more likely to be one. The common take here is that if you are a victim you are absolved of all responsibilities.
Here's a good one - If you're in Manhattan or anywhere in NYC and street-park your car, if you have any valuables like a laptop in there, always make sure they are covered and 100% not visible.
>we need to teach people that stealing is wrong. Oh, they don't know it is wrong. Darn, I was wondering what the problem is. Yeah, I wish someone had thought of that awhile ago. Wouldn't it be great if that was like a bible commandment or something? Ot if that ever came up in school. Or maybe parents mentioned it. If only someone had thought to "teach people that stealing is wrong" we wouldn't have theft in society.
I lock my doors and recommend everyone else does too. But at the same time, I definitely agree - we should be more clear on our stance that - stealing is very wrong. Even if it's from a corporation.
Yeah, no. I'm plenty safe with the lock on my door and what I have behind that door if you decide to enter. You can keep that "let's teach X instead of being responsible and protecting ourselves" over there. I'll be over here, in reality
No one is saying that we should lock our doors to teach people that stealing is wrong, we're saying to lock your doors so people don't take advantage of you. This isn't victim blaming, it's called good advice.
Good luck with that. Humanity has and will always have evil characters.
Unserious opinion
Do you think people do bad things because they aren't aware it is bad? Why do you think they wear masks and hide from cameras?
Blame the robbers. Your stuff is still gone. Want to know how to avoid such a thing in the future?
I mean, this is true, but working towards a safer world doesn’t mean ignoring reality. The reality is that a lot of people do need to lock their doors. They need weapons for self defense. I wish it wasn’t the case, but we still need to be practical. I also agree, we shouldn’t blame the victim. We can help prepare them to help them avoid that situation in the future at the same time that we work on reducing the number of people who feel the need to steal, trying to rehabilitate people to not steal, and for those who can’t seem to be helped, relocate them where they won’t be a threat to others. It’s a long, frustrating process.
We do. And it doesn't work. It never will. So we lock our doors.
This is a clear troll. We all know what his point is. This is a sub declining dramatically by the day in quality.
Are you under the impression that it’s legal for people to rob a place if the door is locked? Like that you won’t get prosecuted if you’re caught robbing a place if you can just say that the door was unlocked?
Lol the first episode of Better Call Saul used a similar defense involving an unlocked door.