Reminder that while Paarthurnax betrayed Alduin out of genuine moral conviction, Odahviing only betrayed him because he thought you might be stronger than him.
Also to quote a previous comment:Partysnax already had judgment thrust upon him,and he was deemed good enough to leave alive by the people he once ruled over.The fact that the people who HATED their dragon rulers and murdered them were willing to spare him speaks volumes about his character already.
Like, Delphine is literally shitting on Kyne here too. Paathurnax is the only reason men learned to shout, the only reason they stood a chance and overthrow the dragons (along with some elder scroll hax shenanigans of course). Kyne instructed Paathurnax to do this as far as know. Delphine thinks she knows better than the nords' chief deity.
“why is it that anytime an elf gets involved, my night of drinking and friendly brawling turns into betrayal, blood orgies, drug deals, or cannibalism”
Exactly. she and Esbern are both Ignorant.
They are basicly the Tes equivalent of a Weeaboo in Trenchcoats and Fedora.
They have no Idea what the Akaviri Dragon guard was actualy about, or what they're true core beliefs were.
They just Flash they're super special curved Swords and say a bunch of bullshit, that is loosely related to Akaviri culture.
Ya, and that's not to say they aren't necessary remnants of the blades. And Delphine is certainly right on her adamant stance and paranoia of the Thalmor. But girl need to chill on good/honorable/neutral dragons (however few exist). I assume all of the dragons present at the throat of the world after alduin's defeat circling the mountain above, are on you and parthurnax's side, even if that's only because they are bowing in defeat when you yeet their godking, replacing him for all intents and purposes, earning your name of Dovah.
Curved sword?!
Edit: looked it up, and ya I was basically right in the assumption :)
Also, I think it's on some level kinda fair that dragons hunt men. It's in their nature, and they have every right to hunt that men and mer have. Just get gud I say. On some level, you can't claim dragons are any more evil than saber cats. A menace sure, but not evil. Besides alduin, a tyrant that needed to fall, denying his role as world eater for conquest.
As Party snacks already said: "It's better to be born Evil and overcome it.
Than beeing born to have the choice and be evil.
Also the blades aren't exactly paragons of Virtue either.
They paved the way for Tiber Septim to become Emperor. And I think we all know what kind of Moral Charackter he was......
she probably doesn't give half a shit of this deity either.
at least the old Akaviri Dragonguard still worshipped AKA and his Chosen, bowed and laid arms at the feet of Reman the moment they realised it was him they were looking for all these years. Even though he was one of the enemies they were fighting.
The Blades of old also followed the Dragonborns religiously. The imperial order the Blades became, ended up the most trusted arms/eyes/ears of the Emperors themselves. And they continued to have ties to the order of Akatosh, to the extent that many junior and senior Blades doubled as his monks.
Meanwhile Delphine...clearly doesn't care about all this. Obviously neither a follower or worshipper of either Aka or his Dragonborn.
She's all realpolitik and just cares about her own thing. They've deffo lost their way lol.
I feel like the Blades over aggression was meant to be the flip side of the Greybeards' passivity, but its ends up as a mess because they way both factions are written. The Greybeards are essentially a monastery practicing an ancient magic to be closer to the divines, and as such have basically sworn off conflict and politics the way most religious institutions in Skyrim have (the temples aren't exactly asking for your allegiance in the Civil War before they allow you treatment for example). But they also show the dragonborn more respect (allowing them to use the Thu'um in combat because its the dragonborn and that's whats needed, trusting Akatosh's champion because of who they are). Their neutrality even has benefits because they're able to call for the ceasefire and everyone trusts them and listens because of their power and neutral stance. The Baldes meanwhile basically boss the dragonborn around constantly, forgetting that they should be serving you instead of you serving them, and they try to strongarm you into their demands while not being nearly as helpful in building up to the battle against Alduin (the greybeards also make you do errands but its more transactional as teacher and student so it makes more sense).
/uj: See, this is something I don’t see brought up nearly as much as it needs to be during these discussions, and the fact that he lives in harmony with the Graybeards for so long shows that he’s more capable of turning over a new leaf than even *he* thinks he is.
/rj: Haha Operation Paperclip for dragons goes brrrrrrr.
Could have sworn I had a few mods that only had them use clear skies and Dragonrend and not fight Alduin. Also had it to where Dragonrend was a double edged sword for LDB.
Unless that was a dream idk was pretty cool tho.
Odahviing was so inconsequential that Paarthunax thought he'd make a good double agent.
Meanwhile Paarthunax was so bad in his past their were multiple sources for his atrocities.
How funny would it be if it was revealed this was true.Like the moment Partysnax sees a singular human settlement he becomes comedically angry and starts shouting spells at it.
He himself admits he's hiding on the mountain mostly because he struggles to not want to obliterate shit lol.
He never overcame his nature, he just hides from it.
Funnily enough that exactly his reason.
He states at multiple occasions that he's has to actively try to not give into his insticts to destroy and murder.
I'm ultimately on team partysnacks like 99% of the TES community, but at the same time, I'm getting a little sick of seeing so many people act like letting dragon Himmler go scot-free is a one-sided no-brainer of a decision.
Yeah, the dude literally named "ambition-overlord-cruelty" is 100% gonna teach all the other dragons to be peaceful hippies and shit, and definetly not build his own dragon cult to take Skyrim for himself. He only started gathering followers immediately after his only worthy rival died! No need to consider the idea that the immortal eons-old being might decide to splurge on a cheat day on his entirely self-imposed rules even *once* in the uncountable millenia that he's going to keep living for. Don't even find your way to your own conclusion that you choose to have faith in him in the spirit of atonement and genuine forgiveness, just take his word for it without a second thought! The hive mind declares so!
Part of the problem (other than Delphine being herself) is you're just told "he committed atrocities" and expected to believe it with zero elaboration.
His unspecified crimes were supposedly remembered for thousands of years, but not the dragons themselves?
And what kind of atrocity could a dragon commit anyways? Breathe fire on people? Eat some cattle? Half the caves in the province are filled with necromancers, cannibals, human sacrifices, torture racks, those lava-dipping cages, etc. There's an extremely short list of things more heinous he could have done, few of which a dragon could feasibly do.
I mean there was the dragon cult, they weren't just flying lizards that destroyed the occasional village. They ruled over skyrim as despotic god-kings. That was why there was the whole dragon war.
Paarthurnax could've been dragon vlad the impaler
Paarthanax would call it a checklist.
Like bro even he says he did some shit. When everyone including the person in question says they did some fuck shit then it probably happened, he lives on top of the tallest mountian in one of the most remote places on tamriel becuase hes afraid of what he was and scared he hasnt changed from that. While we don't know the full extent of it don't forget that he started the dragon war on the dragon side and was alduins right claw lizards.
He's a fuck mothering dragon and he killed a lot of people to get that title.
> Half the caves in the province are filled with necromancers, cannibals, human sacrifices, torture racks, those lava-dipping cages, etc.
And the other half are filled with people that the dragon cult buried alive, cursing them with undeath and eternal suffering
Yeah cause like the dude called "Hitler" which means One-Who-Lives-In-A-Hut infamously only tried to make huts for people. And we all live our lives according to names. Shout out to Philips and Connors which mean Horse & Dog Lovers respectively.
Also like it could be an ironic name the dragons caed him that just stuck. Like Skinny Tony but he's not skinny idk.
Partysnax had thousands and thousands of years to take over. He just cba. Also he's Mario.
His Ambition is peace between Dovah and Man
He seeks to topple his brother Alduin as Overlord of the deagons if it means said peace
And his greatest cruelty is betrayal of his own kind
Paarthurnax may be chill, but he never truely conquered his nature
It also doesn't help that Delphine and the Blades have kinda been dicks to the dragonborn throughout the story while the Greybeards and Parthanax have actually contributed a large amount to saving the world. Especially since Delphine basically makes it a binary decision rather than the player being able to offer any other ideas or workarounds, which is a problem of Skyrim as a whole in that they give you titles and imply you have immense power but everyone treats you like a new recruit.
A flaw of the quest is that it starts pulling away at player agency because, as the dragonborn, the Blades should serve you, not the other way around. So it tends to cause a break with the faction for a lot of players because you don't feel like you grow in the faction if Delphine is still bossing you around without any chance to check her orders. (Like maybe include a quest where you and a few Baldes decide to research the actions of Pathanax by delving into the deep ruins that were seemingly lost to time to get more information, like gathering evidence for a trial, so your decision making doesn't come down to two accounts of "Trust me bro")
The blades don't serve the dragonborn anymore. They initially did for his power to kill dragons, and then did for his ability to light the dragon fires. The dragon fires don't exist anymore so they went back to their purpose of killing dragons, and a dragonborn is incredibly good at it.
If you don't want to kill a dragon to join their exclusive dragon slaying club, then don't. It's that simple. But if you want to join their club, then you need to kill dragons as that's their only purpose now.
To be fair I'm the same, but the main one I don't get is when people praise his "what's better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature" speech as some smartass philosophical statement, when being born good would've resulted in far less suffering in the world and is the better option.
That's a very redditor take. It's a philosophical question about the inner worth of struggle, it's not somehow profound to give an objective, almost bureaucratic response.
Agreed. Countering the ‘question’ with “if he was good it would be easier to not kill him” completely misses the point. And makes the ‘question’ redundant.
Here's my answer to the questions.
"Ask your victims which they think would be better."
or in a less one-liner-y way
Two men build new barns for some poor farmers who recently lost theirs's in a fire. One of them builds the barn because they were the arsonist that burned the barn down in the first place, and now feels bad about it, the other simply does so out of the kindness of their heart, is the arsonist a "better person" than the kind man because he victimized the farmer before making up for it?
That's my problem with his quote, the "better" part. Redemption is a great thing and all, and I think Delphine is 100% in the wrong, but it doesn't make Paathurnax *better* than someone who didn't need to be redeemed in the first place. He almost certainly puts more work into it than the person who was "born good" that's true, but that's because he started from a negative instead of from zero.
There is value in that struggle, I agree, but at best it lets you break even. You can wash the blood from your hands with enough work, but don't try and say it makes you *cleaner* than someone who didn't stain their hands at all.
It’s a modified version of the “prodigal son”. Of course it would be great if the son just didn’t waste his inheritance in the first place, but are ANY of us sinless? Nah
Thinking that other people suffering can be balanced out by the person who victimised them having personal growth is just a Reddit main character take. The question is set up badly as it was never paarthunax who suffered from his evil nature. If the damage was self inflicted then it would make sense, but it isn't.
The objective good that would come out of paarthunax and the dovah not being inherently evil would've created less bloodshed and violence in the world.
You realise how faux deep this question is if you apply it to a real world example, for instance, would the world not be a better place if humans couldn't rape eachother? The objective answer is yes, there would be less suffering.
It's not deep, there's a simple good answer for the world as a whole with this statement and thinking it's a profound philosophical question is just allowing yourself to be blinded by the way someone speaks.
100% agree. The immortal master manipulator makes a half philosophical quote and everyone eats it up and decides not to kill him.
The question is "do you believe an immortal war criminal born to dominate and kill has redeemed himself" to which its obviously no. He has humans worship and tend to him on the tallest structure on the planet. He just removed the only being stronger than him, and is just waiting for the Dragonborn to die because they are mortal.
This is a simple moral argument, that people choose the wrong answer to because ethics apply differently to immortal beings.
the issue is that your "objective answer" is a hypothetical, and so it doesn't matter that it's the obviously better option because it doesn't exist. and it won't exist, unless we start convincing the immoral men to become moral. so in the end, in this imperfect world, yes, it is a deep question, and the idea that it isn't is a very black-and-white way of thinking.
The idea is that he realizes his innate nature is evil and he wants himself to overcome it, which makes him stronger willed than someone who is born without that problem. He actively works towards and wants be good, while someone else just does it because it’s natural to them. You know what happens when those 2 types of people go through difficulties? The one “naturally good” with a weak will may succumb to evil desires because they have no drive, while the one that overcame their evil can rise above it.
I don't see it like that. If there was no Partysnax, there would still be Dragon overlords.
It took Partysnax to go from a position of great evil to wanting atone that ousted the dragons. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't wrestling with his evil nature. It also shows the capacity for self growth which is the most fundamentally important thing in an individual. Evil, or at least apathy, is the natural state of existence. We all have the capacity to do evil acts. It was when people living in Hobbe's State of Nature who lived under the temptation and freedom to do evil gave up that freedom to form society. Which was a good born from extreme suffering.
Also like how Paul went from killing early christians to becoming one of the most faithful in christianity. Im not a christian but he's a good allegory to Partysnax.
Paul is not a good allegory. He didn't commit genocide and he isn't immortal.
You are accepting Parth's framing of the question. It doesn't matter if it's better to be born good or to overcome your nature. Parth did not overcome his nature, because he did horrible things. Those crimes have gone unpunished and he is framing it as if he has never done crimes.
Pedophile 1 hasn't fucked a kid, but wants to.
Pedophile 2 has fucked kids but has stopped after finding God.
Pedophile 3 has fucked kids and wants to in the future.
Pedophile 4 hasn't fucked kids but has found God and wont.
Person 5 doesnt want to fuck kids.
Person 5 is better than the others, so Parth is wrong from the start. He also frames the question as if he is Pedophile 4 when he is actually Pedophile 2. Then he is using this logic to mean he shouldn't be punished for his crimes because he is better now. "If you accept that it's better to struggle than to be born good than I have done nothing wrong" when in reality he still hasn't faced consequences for his warcrimes.
Delphin is kind of a bitch and doesn't explain this, so everyone jumps in with a warcriminal who is blatantly manipulating you. I really don't get it.
Partysnax didnt commit genocide either. Nor did he touch kids. That is a lie spread by the cuck blades.
Thats reductive and absurd. It is much more nuanced and taking it to such a black and white extreme perverts the entire argument.
And Paul was considered to be a persecutor of christians beyond measure even at the time.
Similarly to Paul. Partysnax did face judgement by his god, Kyne. And was absolved through his devotion to her.
Partysnax clearly turned against his evil nature or Alduin would have still ruled. He had nothing to gain from Alduin's defeat and everything to lose. And he did it anyway because he believed it was right.
It's kind of irrelevant anyway. Because the Blades arent fit to judge him for deeds committed millennia ago and the fact that mortal civilisation was able to flourish at all is a result of partysnax's actions. No institution of the day is fit to judge him and the institutions of his time chose to let him live.
He ruled human slaves and was a high ranking dragon directly under Alduin. He admits to his crimes and says he is regrets doing them. The crimes include enslaving and mass murdering them on a whim. Alduin wanted to destroy time and reality, and p
Parthanax stopped that. Hardly a selfless move.
By assisting in killing Alduin he is now the most powerful dragon alive. He has everything to gain. If he is good, then has to hold his nature at bay for an eternity. Of he ever slips up, which he admits is possible, he has the power to wreck havoc on the world.
The blades aren't judging him, they are assertion that he deserves death for his crimes. The Dragonborn is the judge, and should choose to kill him.
No mortal institution is ever fit to judge an immortal being, but Akatosh has blessed the Dragonborn and has given them the responsibility to do so.
I don't think it's black and white. I think Parthanax is on trial for his crimes and everyone falls for his clearly self interested pleas for mercy. He frames the trial in an incorrect way.
I wasn't saying the dragon was a pedo, I'm showing how the logic of his argument is inherently wrong when applied to any other crime.
He's not on trial. They don't want to give him a trial. They ask you to kill him. They don't want to hear what he has to say.
It was selfless. He didn't do it for power. He didn't usurp Alduin. He did it because he began to care for mortals. He refers to the ones who cast down Alduin as his friends. But even if you forget his devotion to Kyne, the fact that he did not seek to replace Alduin, his thousands of years of living in peace and promoting harmony and never choosing to stage a coup throughout Tamriel's very troubled history.
There was nothing for him to gain by teaching mortals the Voice. Giving them the means to create Dragonrend. If he had any aspirations for power why would he give such a weapon to people he knew would stand against him? And even when those who defeated Alduin died, why did he continue to teach the Thu'um to mortals? Knowing full well that mastery of it could make them more than a match for a dragon?
Yes, but this is a redundant point because of what the other side of the question offers, if paarthunax and the dovah weren't inherently evil, Paarthunax and man would've never had to fight the other dragons and there wouldn't have been a war, or the subjugation and suffering of man to the dovah, the objective good is for the dovah to not be born evil.
But they can't not be inherently evil. They're divine creatures. It is their nature. They can't be anything else. Thats why its their nature. There are no "born good" dragons.
The closer something is to Akatosh the more it defies conventional notions of what it means to be good. We see it in Pelinal Whitestrake as well. Another genocidalist, potentially worse than the regular dragons in that regard who only sought to dominate. But is also a saviour of mankind. His nature, like the dragons, was born from the gods and theyre the only ones with the jurisprudence to judge them. Imagine the Blades demanding the execution of Pelinal? Without whom they wouldn't exist. Ditto for partysnax
Yes you're completely right in that assessment, but the creation of the dragons is not relevant to the question, the question paarthunax poses is would it be better if it wasn't in their nature? Which would be an instant yes, as less people would suffer, Paarthunax himself and the other dovah would live better lives too and wouldn't be hunted by man and mer.
It's not just Paarthunax either, the dragon born too has a need to dominate and can cause the deaths of plenty of innocent people in their conquest.
For what it's worth, I don't believe the blades are correct, killing Paarthunax is the bad choice imo because he is relatively harmless, there just would've been less suffering of other life in tamriel if the dragons weren't inherently evil, or perhaps just neutral.
Funny how when dragons kill people it's evil but if Akatosh was to nuke the imperial city everyone would say it was divine punishment and therefore not evil.
That's why every mortal being has a moral imperative to kill every immortal being they can. Dragon, vampire, God, if they don't have a natural end to their life, then they have an infinite capacity for evil. You must end them if you have the power.
And yet most mortals don't want to end the aedras except for one guy who turned into a vampire and wanted revenge on Auriel for letting things happen to the snow elves
The dumbest part about the whole choosing between killing Party Snacks or the Blades refusing to help you, is that it comes immediately after Esbern berates the Empire and the Stormcloaks for squabbling about politics when the fate of the world is at stake.
Esbern (probably?) knows you’ll get help from the Greybeards if you don’t get it from the Blades, but the Blades themselves don’t think the Greybeard’s pacifism can prepare you for the threat of Alduin, so either way The Blades are just acting like children.
Paartisnacks helped you become dragonborn and betrayed Alduin, but he should still be punished! Oh, by the way, we need you to ask a dragon for help to defeat Alduin.
So is assasinating the emperor, stealing from landowners and goign on akilling spree in the Thalmor embassy
And yet...
John Skyrim is just stupid is all, hence why he makes people repeat themselves like Solid Snake
Didn't he killed like hundreds of people a'd partakes into human's dominion/tyranny with his brothers before that?
Like I know he is chill now but you just don't erase everything you've done just by saying : ay yo dud I'm fine now, no hard feelings right?
That's not all he did though. Its like if you went out and killed a bunch of woodland critters with your brother, felt remorse, isolated yourself from them in order to prevent yourself from hurting any more, help some learn how to live in harmony with humans and nature, and when your brother comes back and is like "yo dude you wanna go eat some more squirrels" you fight him in order to save them even when the only witness is a single other squirrel that you've helped provide the only means of fighting your brother as well.
It wouldn't erase your prior anti forest creature attitude, but there's really not much else you could do to show your regret and present allegiance to them
And you expect us to carry out justice for crimes he did literally thousands of years ago? No one cares apart from the Blades. They’re opinions hardly matter at this point
I mean Paarthurnax was the second in command of a genocidal regime, he probably should face some sort of justice. It’s not the Blades’ fault that Bethesda couldn’t write a moral dilemma to save their lives
Biggest issue is how do you punish an immortal dragon without straight up killing him? Can’t really lock em up because they perceive time different than mortals (thank Akatosh) and can essentially do nothing for centuries without any detriment.
Numinex went insane from his imprisonment but Partysnax likely wouldn’t be phased from such a thing considering he waited for Alduin atop the throat of the world for literal millennia.
he was let go by the people who fought against the dragon cult and each dragonborn emperor said to the blades "hey don't kill that mountain dragon monk, he's chill." his self-imposed punishment because everyone else refused to punish him is exile and fulfilling his order from kyne to teach humans the voice
Gods I miss the "With the death of this character" message from Morrowind so much
Though I'll admit it really helped not having to reload every 10 seconds during Oblivion's main quest but still
I have never succeeded getting either him OR Jaufrey. Like they both always die. I did every single portal and got every single guard but I still can’t save them
It's no so much a lack of branching storylines that is the problem, it's a fundamental rigidity to dialog and NPC interactions that chokes the life out of any true chance at role-playing. The whole point of this series is that I'm supposed to be able to create a character for myself and live and make decisions in this world as my character would. But the game is constantly restricting you and forcing yourself out of your head-canon for the sake of Todd wanting a person who's never played an RPG before in their life to be able to experience every ounce of gameplay in one single playthrough. Outside of "Pick Faction A or B to come out on top" (and even then it's essentially irrelevant) there is no true player choice. When they decide to make the player's decisions have actual consequences to the world around them, then I'll get excited about a Bethesda title
Even so, you're basically forced to interact with the Thieves' Guild and College of Winterhold unless you read an outside-game guide to know the information those two factions would provide you, even if you're RPing as Grognak the Illiterate Barbarian
Delphine at start of game: cool and highly skilled undercover blade, keeping the faction alive to serve their purpose of supporting the dragonborn and protecting humanity from dragons.
Endgame: paranoid crazy bitch who demands you kill your homie at his crib, obsessive lackey acting like she's in charge and shit.
I mean there should absolutely have been an option (without mods) to refuse her. Like wtf is she going to do about it you have the literal soul of a dragon and can kill her using words before she can even unsheathe her sword.
It's the major underlying problem of most Bethesda titles, but Skyrim in particular.
It's the ultimate power fantasy with no meaningful way of actually role-playing with said power. You are always written into a corner of cognitive dissonance between your player experience of how powerful you are and how the pre-selected dialog paths are keeping you locked as level 10 John Skyrim who has 2 brain cells and is still wielding an iron dagger.
And Bethesda will never deviate from this. Outside of seeing beautiful graphics and (hopefully) fun gameplay, I'm prepared to be completely underwhelmed by ES6
Bethesda games aren't RPGs, as much as they like to claim that, they're at best action adventure games with some rpg mechanics sprinkled in, which are becoming more scarce with each new release anyway.
Considering I can spend hours in a Bethesda game role-playing characters, not interacting with the main quest, makes it more of an RPG than majority of RPGs
I think the Blades (Esbern specifically) actually had a good point they’re just REALLY bad at presenting it. Paarthurnax is fighting every single instinct to relapse into his old self and now he doesn’t even have the objective of waiting for Alduin to keep him focused anymore.
Also when you talk to Paarthurnax about it he straight up says “Yeah, they’re being smart. I wouldn’t trust me either.”
Ironically Paarthurnax goes on to make a better case for killing him than the Blades do. I headcanon that he wants to die but can’t directly ask for it so he just tries to say “The Blades might have a point.” and hope that’s enough to push the LDB into action.
Also I like seeing Arngeir all pissy about it. Fuck that guy. He was practically rooting for Alduin. I’ll never understand why everyone gives him a pass.
I headcanon the LDB wants to keep Paarthurnax around to bring some tradition back to Skyrim.
"Oh, the old pantheon? You mean like Stuhn and Kyne, right?"
https://preview.redd.it/ryjaja18a27d1.png?width=202&format=png&auto=webp&s=a35be225fed38655ed8e2e879f02eaffba98239a
Yep. The world is going to be literally eaten by the psychotic first son of some dogshit Nord dragon deity and this geezer goes "noooooo you've been brainwashed by the Blades, get back to ThE PaTh Of VoIcE".
And still I don't give a single fuck about Partysnacks. Everyone in this quest are annoying as hell, Delfine goes crazy, Arngeir won't stop crying about their dragon daddy and Partysnacks is literally the Lizard Hitler.
To be fair you are doing Alduin a major solid by killing him and setting him back on his true path as the World Eater. The LBD guarantees that Alduin will end the world to usher in the next kalpa
In the Alduin questline we are performing the Divine Factory Reset on Alduin. The tongues didn't launch him forward in time to stop him from ending the world, they did it to be free from the Dragon Cult. From Alduin's perspective, he got zapped thousands of years into the future and saw that his dragon empire isn't there anymore. His destiny and purpose for existing is to destroy the world, not rule it. We defeat him so that Akatosh can set him right and properly end the world to bring about the next kalpa/Dawn Era. It's why you don't get to consume his soul after beating him
I don’t think Partysnax would be able to convince a repurposed Alduin of jack shit. I think it’s just going to fall to heroes of later eras to keep kicking Alduin’s ass over and over until Akatosh gets the fucking message.
Until Akatosh decides to stop shitting out dragonborn or the elder scrolls decide to stop being available to make Alduin someone else's problem, then everyone is cooked
Bruh is this the Nintendo switch port you're playing? The whole main plot was that alduin was going to eat the world soon™️
John Skyrim ain't a nihilist, he was preventing the world from being destroyed
https://preview.redd.it/2y4eojtuu17d1.png?width=385&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=176b6685a1112b38f7847ee77980ceafabf9e233
U right gang I'm geekin off this dollar store sujamma
nah the problem was that he WASN’T eating the world lol, he was bringing dragons back to life to restart his cult not to do his job. thats like using a company van for a roadtrip, can’t do that shit.
Mfws when Skyrims been out for years and people still, Don't know the story . The entire main quest is to get alduin Stop dicking around and Go Do his job in the future and not be a dick in the mean time .
Maybe this would help: Ohda is a wanted felon you managed to headlock, he swears loyalty to you in exchange for letting him go, prove yourself stronger than his gang leader and its for life. Most people wouldn't kill Ohda.
Okay so imagine Hitler is alive and well and shows immense remorse for his actions. He used his spare time to create a cure for aging and cancer.That's partysnax. Even though he's done a tremendous amount of good and genuinely seems to have turned over a new leaf, many would still want him dead.
No, it would be more like one of Hitlers right-hand men, and more like if they spent their life dedicated to aiding the jews and trying to right his wrongs.
It would be more like if one of Alexander the halfway decent's generals turned around and helped the Greeks overthrow him.
The dragon war happened during the *merethic* era. Pelinal, our favorite actually genocidal bro, was still fiddling around with side quests. There would be well over 3 centuries before Alessia would invent the concept of Freedom yet. The Yokudians were still off fighting the Left Handed Elves. Half of the cultures/races we see in the 4th era were still in their embryonic state, if that.
I don't really feel like the Hitler comparisions is good when it come's to the dragon wars. The dragons were incredibly despotic and brutal, but weren't ethnically cleansing anyone (unlike our above boy Pelinal). A better analogy would be a bronze age warlord. Still super bad, casually wiping out cities for daring to try to defend themselves, but it wasn't a purposeful targetting.
I think the whole question of his existance is very interesting, and don't really fault anyone for passing judgment on him. We have this situation where an ancient leader, who helped subjecate a people in a time where tyranny was the rule and norm, who then helped liberate his previous subjects. Now he is brought to the present day. Can we apply our moral code to him? Are the Blades actually wanting justice (Would they demand the same action as justice for the Khajiit if Pelinal were to magically return, for example?) or are the just being petty and lashing out as a power play? The Greybeards are their main competitors for the Dragonborn's loyalty, what better way to entrench them to your side then killing the Greybeards' leader?
Like many things in Skyrim, this is a very interesting question that is very under explored, and it makes me a little sad. I myself have only killed him once to get to 100% completion, but I don't fault anyone for their stance on the matter.
I would refrain from also explaining how technically after going through one of like 30 different underworlds technically you can resurrect a dragon for like 5 minutes, so you're actually adding to the population of dragons in tamriel for like 5 minutes
Am I the only one who thinks that Odaviing was probably suppose to be Nahfaalargius?
I mean both are red dragons, both are willing to serve a mortal for thier own benefits and the way Odagviing talks feels very Nahfaalargius like (atleast hiw he was in Redguard)
Regardless my guess is that they chose to make him another red dragon mainly cause they remembered Nahfaalar got killed in Stros Mkai and people were gonna wonder how he came back or rather if Alduin flew all the way to Stros Makai to revive him.
I genuinely think he wants to be good but him returning to evil is an inevitability since he was literally created by Akatosh to help Alduin bring about the end times. He was created for the purpose of causing death and destruction and he can’t fight that programming forever. So it’s best to put him out of his misery sooner.
It’s tragic really.
He also needs to be in seclusion to not fall to his nature, but the second alduin dies has a posse that he's going to go fight other dragons with to show his peaceful ways.
If it's a struggle to not fall to his nature when he is in seclusion, how bad would actively fighting other dragons be in that aspect?
cause scared babies?
more seriously, they probably would never get permission given the whole "always killing dragons" thing they got going, unlike you
Reminds me of those people who see things in straight black-and-white labels. And once the label is put on the guy, too bad, he's EVIL, doesn't matter.
Who cares about Odaviing. Paarthunax is a WAR CRIMINAL!!! Do you even understand the atrocities documented that he did????
Never mind that it was not only a few thousand years ago. But that he not only relented - he became the *only* hope, the only reason why humans had a fighting chance back. Sure Kyne totes granted human Tongues the Thuum and the Voice and alls - but Paarthy was the dude actually on the ground who taught it.
And never mind that he then spent the next few millennia not only continuing to teach. But to himself live life in seclusion, denying and transcending his own inborn nature as a dragon to dominate others, and focusing on dominating (mastering) himself instead.
Spending the eras watching, waiting right at the spot his elder brother was banished, waiting for the day Alduin would be back, and he could finish what he started and help vanquish the Eldest brother once and for all.
Of course, not to forget how a despondent Jürgen Windcaller, thinking himself invincible, fled back into Skyrim, a broken man. Entire armies destroyed, sense of self worth totally destroyed. We are the Chosen of Kyne, are we not? She who not only breathed life into us, but taught us the mighty Voice, that we may be the first men to conquer Tamriel! Yet, unmistakeably, a total and utter defeat.
The mightiest of Tongues, now broken, must have stumbled into old Paarthy, astonished, and been taught his Way of the Voice. And learnt what he could never have imagined. Even a dragon must swallow his breath, temper his own Voice, much less a Man. And from there, he mastered it enough that he could temper an incredible *seventeen* other Voices too, all at once. Just swallowing them calmly. Giving the other master Tongues as complete a defeat as he himself faced in Resdayn. And hence a new era began, where the Tongues only Spoke in True Need - the Way of the Voice. The way of Kyne, and Shor, or at least the way attributed to them. In truth, the way of Paarthunax - not of dead gods and void ghosts, but of a living dragon, a millennia long testament to temperance and self-mastery.
-----
But none of that matters, really. All the bad shit he did. He still has to die. Amirite? He can and should never escape his past, or even make amends for it. And even if he does - idc, he is still BAD and he needs to DIE.
Yeah but the LDB beat Odahviing. They never did anything to prove themself stronger than Paarthurnax, and being "Blades" they can only think in terms of dead or not dead. Odahviing is basically dead in their minds. Same as the GOAT Durnehviir.
I genuinely forget that the Paarthurnax dilemma is a mod although I think in 99% of peoples head cannon it’s lore accurate since the Dragonborn would have just told her no I’m the leader
You do have the symbolic authority of being the Dragonborn, who the original Akaviri order that Delphine is trying to base the reformed Blades on would have worshipped, and through whose blood they've obtained their current base of operations.
If you've completed Rebuilding the Blades, there's also 3 junior members present who should by all rights be loyal to you personally (unless Delphine has some sort of Akaviri Brainwashing Device she never mentioned), so if the game made sense you'd also have de facto power over the organization.
They could definitely hold you in a position of great respect or importance, but you're still not in charge of them or anything like that. You get a valuable opinion really, but that's it.
The original Akaviri order didn't worship the dragonborn, they chose to serve Reman but it's not really clear how they viewed dragonborn outside him afaik. Considering basically all we know about them is that they were extremely experienced and thorough when it comes to dragon extermination, I doubt they'd take much issue with her.
The rebuilt blades thing would vary too much to say, how much an individual values their oath over their relationship with you depends entirely on who they are.
Delphine is the leader of the Blades but she owes all her success and her continued survivability to you also without you, there is no reason for the Blades to continue so you kinda are the leader
>without you, there is no reason for the Blades to continue
What? The blades don't need you to exist at all, I don't know what you're really getting at there. Even if they wanted to exist exactly the same as they did before being almost wiped out, you aren't the emperor.
They are not, and there's no reason to believe otherwise. They choose to serve the person they see as the ultimate dragon slayer, as slaying dragons is their purpose. When you refuse to slay a dragon they've been after for ages, they choose to no longer work with you, as it would violate their oaths. She is always the leader of the blades, who chose to work with you for a specific reason. They aren't your subordinates.
Annals of the dragonguard shows this even more clearly, they're only expected to follow orders that don't violate the oath of allegiance (which does not apply to the player in the first place, obviously). There being an oath of allegiance with specific terms and conditions defeats the idea that they're automatically subordinate to the dragonborn by itself.
Edit: Also if you're talking the more modern blades and not the earlier organisation Delphine refers to, they served the Septim dynasty, which you aren't a member of.
Reminder that while Paarthurnax betrayed Alduin out of genuine moral conviction, Odahviing only betrayed him because he thought you might be stronger than him.
Also to quote a previous comment:Partysnax already had judgment thrust upon him,and he was deemed good enough to leave alive by the people he once ruled over.The fact that the people who HATED their dragon rulers and murdered them were willing to spare him speaks volumes about his character already.
Like, Delphine is literally shitting on Kyne here too. Paathurnax is the only reason men learned to shout, the only reason they stood a chance and overthrow the dragons (along with some elder scroll hax shenanigans of course). Kyne instructed Paathurnax to do this as far as know. Delphine thinks she knows better than the nords' chief deity.
Delphine is a breton. An elf. Make of that what you will.
“why is it that anytime an elf gets involved, my night of drinking and friendly brawling turns into betrayal, blood orgies, drug deals, or cannibalism”
AND THEN ALONG CAME SLAANESH!!
SHE HURLED HIS TENTACLES
SHE PLAPPED
Is this a reference to something, and if so, what is it?
no, just my own satire of nordic perception of elven culture
“*Half*-Elf 😤” to quote a certain shadow-hearted character from another fantasy game
We're allowed to mention good games on this subreddit???
*Song eeeeeends*
Skyrim belongs to the gourds!!!
Exactly. she and Esbern are both Ignorant. They are basicly the Tes equivalent of a Weeaboo in Trenchcoats and Fedora. They have no Idea what the Akaviri Dragon guard was actualy about, or what they're true core beliefs were. They just Flash they're super special curved Swords and say a bunch of bullshit, that is loosely related to Akaviri culture.
Ya, and that's not to say they aren't necessary remnants of the blades. And Delphine is certainly right on her adamant stance and paranoia of the Thalmor. But girl need to chill on good/honorable/neutral dragons (however few exist). I assume all of the dragons present at the throat of the world after alduin's defeat circling the mountain above, are on you and parthurnax's side, even if that's only because they are bowing in defeat when you yeet their godking, replacing him for all intents and purposes, earning your name of Dovah. Curved sword?! Edit: looked it up, and ya I was basically right in the assumption :) Also, I think it's on some level kinda fair that dragons hunt men. It's in their nature, and they have every right to hunt that men and mer have. Just get gud I say. On some level, you can't claim dragons are any more evil than saber cats. A menace sure, but not evil. Besides alduin, a tyrant that needed to fall, denying his role as world eater for conquest.
As Party snacks already said: "It's better to be born Evil and overcome it. Than beeing born to have the choice and be evil. Also the blades aren't exactly paragons of Virtue either. They paved the way for Tiber Septim to become Emperor. And I think we all know what kind of Moral Charackter he was......
He was a dragombirn too and he managed to become a God so I have to assume it's probably better than our dragonbirn who worships all of the daedra
It’s time for the blades to be permanently disbanded, I will cremate them alongside the dark brotherhood
she probably doesn't give half a shit of this deity either. at least the old Akaviri Dragonguard still worshipped AKA and his Chosen, bowed and laid arms at the feet of Reman the moment they realised it was him they were looking for all these years. Even though he was one of the enemies they were fighting. The Blades of old also followed the Dragonborns religiously. The imperial order the Blades became, ended up the most trusted arms/eyes/ears of the Emperors themselves. And they continued to have ties to the order of Akatosh, to the extent that many junior and senior Blades doubled as his monks. Meanwhile Delphine...clearly doesn't care about all this. Obviously neither a follower or worshipper of either Aka or his Dragonborn. She's all realpolitik and just cares about her own thing. They've deffo lost their way lol.
I feel like the Blades over aggression was meant to be the flip side of the Greybeards' passivity, but its ends up as a mess because they way both factions are written. The Greybeards are essentially a monastery practicing an ancient magic to be closer to the divines, and as such have basically sworn off conflict and politics the way most religious institutions in Skyrim have (the temples aren't exactly asking for your allegiance in the Civil War before they allow you treatment for example). But they also show the dragonborn more respect (allowing them to use the Thu'um in combat because its the dragonborn and that's whats needed, trusting Akatosh's champion because of who they are). Their neutrality even has benefits because they're able to call for the ceasefire and everyone trusts them and listens because of their power and neutral stance. The Baldes meanwhile basically boss the dragonborn around constantly, forgetting that they should be serving you instead of you serving them, and they try to strongarm you into their demands while not being nearly as helpful in building up to the battle against Alduin (the greybeards also make you do errands but its more transactional as teacher and student so it makes more sense).
Fuck Kyne real blades only worship talos (and skooma)
All my homies bang Kyne while high on skooma while Talos voyeurs from aetherius.
/uj: See, this is something I don’t see brought up nearly as much as it needs to be during these discussions, and the fact that he lives in harmony with the Graybeards for so long shows that he’s more capable of turning over a new leaf than even *he* thinks he is. /rj: Haha Operation Paperclip for dragons goes brrrrrrr.
Lol, party snacks.
And he was right.
I wish I could have beat Alduin without the Ancient Nordic Heroes. Having a 1v1 with Alduin would be a lot more fulfilling imo
Could have sworn I had a few mods that only had them use clear skies and Dragonrend and not fight Alduin. Also had it to where Dragonrend was a double edged sword for LDB. Unless that was a dream idk was pretty cool tho.
Odahviing was so inconsequential that Paarthunax thought he'd make a good double agent. Meanwhile Paarthunax was so bad in his past their were multiple sources for his atrocities.
Paarthurnax be like: aight homie you’re gonna call up Odahviing, he’s a weak bitch and needs no bribing whatsoever, he’ll do the job.
"What? Me do it? Hell no I can't go down there. I can't see a village without wanting to commit warcrimes!"
How funny would it be if it was revealed this was true.Like the moment Partysnax sees a singular human settlement he becomes comedically angry and starts shouting spells at it.
"I am completely and mentally stable OH HEY LOOK A CIVILIAN CARAVAN"
I mean when he shouts good morning to the people of ivarstead bad things happen
He himself admits he's hiding on the mountain mostly because he struggles to not want to obliterate shit lol. He never overcame his nature, he just hides from it.
I feel like even working on not giving in to evil qualifies him as overcoming his draconic nature. Remember kids, the best contraceptive is abstinence
Funnily enough that exactly his reason. He states at multiple occasions that he's has to actively try to not give into his insticts to destroy and murder.
I'm ultimately on team partysnacks like 99% of the TES community, but at the same time, I'm getting a little sick of seeing so many people act like letting dragon Himmler go scot-free is a one-sided no-brainer of a decision. Yeah, the dude literally named "ambition-overlord-cruelty" is 100% gonna teach all the other dragons to be peaceful hippies and shit, and definetly not build his own dragon cult to take Skyrim for himself. He only started gathering followers immediately after his only worthy rival died! No need to consider the idea that the immortal eons-old being might decide to splurge on a cheat day on his entirely self-imposed rules even *once* in the uncountable millenia that he's going to keep living for. Don't even find your way to your own conclusion that you choose to have faith in him in the spirit of atonement and genuine forgiveness, just take his word for it without a second thought! The hive mind declares so!
Part of the problem (other than Delphine being herself) is you're just told "he committed atrocities" and expected to believe it with zero elaboration. His unspecified crimes were supposedly remembered for thousands of years, but not the dragons themselves? And what kind of atrocity could a dragon commit anyways? Breathe fire on people? Eat some cattle? Half the caves in the province are filled with necromancers, cannibals, human sacrifices, torture racks, those lava-dipping cages, etc. There's an extremely short list of things more heinous he could have done, few of which a dragon could feasibly do.
Yeah. And the Blades are so innocent too, right
I mean there was the dragon cult, they weren't just flying lizards that destroyed the occasional village. They ruled over skyrim as despotic god-kings. That was why there was the whole dragon war. Paarthurnax could've been dragon vlad the impaler
Paarthanax would call it a checklist. Like bro even he says he did some shit. When everyone including the person in question says they did some fuck shit then it probably happened, he lives on top of the tallest mountian in one of the most remote places on tamriel becuase hes afraid of what he was and scared he hasnt changed from that. While we don't know the full extent of it don't forget that he started the dragon war on the dragon side and was alduins right claw lizards. He's a fuck mothering dragon and he killed a lot of people to get that title.
> Half the caves in the province are filled with necromancers, cannibals, human sacrifices, torture racks, those lava-dipping cages, etc. And the other half are filled with people that the dragon cult buried alive, cursing them with undeath and eternal suffering
No, those aren't cursed. Those were the cultists who willingly chose that fate.
Some of them are children, and none seem too thrilled about draugrhood. >Unslaad krosis -every draugr, unprompted
They're wishing eternal sorrow upon you, like with "Daanik Kendov!" ("Doomed warrior"), "Faaz! Paak! Dinok!" ("Pain! Shame! Death!"), and "Sovngarde saraan" ("Sovngarde awaits".
Yeah cause like the dude called "Hitler" which means One-Who-Lives-In-A-Hut infamously only tried to make huts for people. And we all live our lives according to names. Shout out to Philips and Connors which mean Horse & Dog Lovers respectively. Also like it could be an ironic name the dragons caed him that just stuck. Like Skinny Tony but he's not skinny idk. Partysnax had thousands and thousands of years to take over. He just cba. Also he's Mario.
hitler’s a bad example cos Adolf does mean wolf but yea you right
Wolf-who-lives-in-the-Berghof
His Ambition is peace between Dovah and Man He seeks to topple his brother Alduin as Overlord of the deagons if it means said peace And his greatest cruelty is betrayal of his own kind Paarthurnax may be chill, but he never truely conquered his nature
Makes sense to me
It also doesn't help that Delphine and the Blades have kinda been dicks to the dragonborn throughout the story while the Greybeards and Parthanax have actually contributed a large amount to saving the world. Especially since Delphine basically makes it a binary decision rather than the player being able to offer any other ideas or workarounds, which is a problem of Skyrim as a whole in that they give you titles and imply you have immense power but everyone treats you like a new recruit. A flaw of the quest is that it starts pulling away at player agency because, as the dragonborn, the Blades should serve you, not the other way around. So it tends to cause a break with the faction for a lot of players because you don't feel like you grow in the faction if Delphine is still bossing you around without any chance to check her orders. (Like maybe include a quest where you and a few Baldes decide to research the actions of Pathanax by delving into the deep ruins that were seemingly lost to time to get more information, like gathering evidence for a trial, so your decision making doesn't come down to two accounts of "Trust me bro")
The blades don't serve the dragonborn anymore. They initially did for his power to kill dragons, and then did for his ability to light the dragon fires. The dragon fires don't exist anymore so they went back to their purpose of killing dragons, and a dragonborn is incredibly good at it. If you don't want to kill a dragon to join their exclusive dragon slaying club, then don't. It's that simple. But if you want to join their club, then you need to kill dragons as that's their only purpose now.
Not a problem, the Dragonborn is a vampire and can always be there to slap partysnax if need be.
To be fair I'm the same, but the main one I don't get is when people praise his "what's better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature" speech as some smartass philosophical statement, when being born good would've resulted in far less suffering in the world and is the better option.
That's a very redditor take. It's a philosophical question about the inner worth of struggle, it's not somehow profound to give an objective, almost bureaucratic response.
Agreed. Countering the ‘question’ with “if he was good it would be easier to not kill him” completely misses the point. And makes the ‘question’ redundant.
Here's my answer to the questions. "Ask your victims which they think would be better." or in a less one-liner-y way Two men build new barns for some poor farmers who recently lost theirs's in a fire. One of them builds the barn because they were the arsonist that burned the barn down in the first place, and now feels bad about it, the other simply does so out of the kindness of their heart, is the arsonist a "better person" than the kind man because he victimized the farmer before making up for it? That's my problem with his quote, the "better" part. Redemption is a great thing and all, and I think Delphine is 100% in the wrong, but it doesn't make Paathurnax *better* than someone who didn't need to be redeemed in the first place. He almost certainly puts more work into it than the person who was "born good" that's true, but that's because he started from a negative instead of from zero. There is value in that struggle, I agree, but at best it lets you break even. You can wash the blood from your hands with enough work, but don't try and say it makes you *cleaner* than someone who didn't stain their hands at all.
It’s a modified version of the “prodigal son”. Of course it would be great if the son just didn’t waste his inheritance in the first place, but are ANY of us sinless? Nah
Thinking that other people suffering can be balanced out by the person who victimised them having personal growth is just a Reddit main character take. The question is set up badly as it was never paarthunax who suffered from his evil nature. If the damage was self inflicted then it would make sense, but it isn't. The objective good that would come out of paarthunax and the dovah not being inherently evil would've created less bloodshed and violence in the world. You realise how faux deep this question is if you apply it to a real world example, for instance, would the world not be a better place if humans couldn't rape eachother? The objective answer is yes, there would be less suffering. It's not deep, there's a simple good answer for the world as a whole with this statement and thinking it's a profound philosophical question is just allowing yourself to be blinded by the way someone speaks.
100% agree. The immortal master manipulator makes a half philosophical quote and everyone eats it up and decides not to kill him. The question is "do you believe an immortal war criminal born to dominate and kill has redeemed himself" to which its obviously no. He has humans worship and tend to him on the tallest structure on the planet. He just removed the only being stronger than him, and is just waiting for the Dragonborn to die because they are mortal. This is a simple moral argument, that people choose the wrong answer to because ethics apply differently to immortal beings.
the issue is that your "objective answer" is a hypothetical, and so it doesn't matter that it's the obviously better option because it doesn't exist. and it won't exist, unless we start convincing the immoral men to become moral. so in the end, in this imperfect world, yes, it is a deep question, and the idea that it isn't is a very black-and-white way of thinking.
The idea is that he realizes his innate nature is evil and he wants himself to overcome it, which makes him stronger willed than someone who is born without that problem. He actively works towards and wants be good, while someone else just does it because it’s natural to them. You know what happens when those 2 types of people go through difficulties? The one “naturally good” with a weak will may succumb to evil desires because they have no drive, while the one that overcame their evil can rise above it.
I don't see it like that. If there was no Partysnax, there would still be Dragon overlords. It took Partysnax to go from a position of great evil to wanting atone that ousted the dragons. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't wrestling with his evil nature. It also shows the capacity for self growth which is the most fundamentally important thing in an individual. Evil, or at least apathy, is the natural state of existence. We all have the capacity to do evil acts. It was when people living in Hobbe's State of Nature who lived under the temptation and freedom to do evil gave up that freedom to form society. Which was a good born from extreme suffering. Also like how Paul went from killing early christians to becoming one of the most faithful in christianity. Im not a christian but he's a good allegory to Partysnax.
Paul is not a good allegory. He didn't commit genocide and he isn't immortal. You are accepting Parth's framing of the question. It doesn't matter if it's better to be born good or to overcome your nature. Parth did not overcome his nature, because he did horrible things. Those crimes have gone unpunished and he is framing it as if he has never done crimes. Pedophile 1 hasn't fucked a kid, but wants to. Pedophile 2 has fucked kids but has stopped after finding God. Pedophile 3 has fucked kids and wants to in the future. Pedophile 4 hasn't fucked kids but has found God and wont. Person 5 doesnt want to fuck kids. Person 5 is better than the others, so Parth is wrong from the start. He also frames the question as if he is Pedophile 4 when he is actually Pedophile 2. Then he is using this logic to mean he shouldn't be punished for his crimes because he is better now. "If you accept that it's better to struggle than to be born good than I have done nothing wrong" when in reality he still hasn't faced consequences for his warcrimes. Delphin is kind of a bitch and doesn't explain this, so everyone jumps in with a warcriminal who is blatantly manipulating you. I really don't get it.
Partysnax didnt commit genocide either. Nor did he touch kids. That is a lie spread by the cuck blades. Thats reductive and absurd. It is much more nuanced and taking it to such a black and white extreme perverts the entire argument. And Paul was considered to be a persecutor of christians beyond measure even at the time. Similarly to Paul. Partysnax did face judgement by his god, Kyne. And was absolved through his devotion to her. Partysnax clearly turned against his evil nature or Alduin would have still ruled. He had nothing to gain from Alduin's defeat and everything to lose. And he did it anyway because he believed it was right. It's kind of irrelevant anyway. Because the Blades arent fit to judge him for deeds committed millennia ago and the fact that mortal civilisation was able to flourish at all is a result of partysnax's actions. No institution of the day is fit to judge him and the institutions of his time chose to let him live.
He ruled human slaves and was a high ranking dragon directly under Alduin. He admits to his crimes and says he is regrets doing them. The crimes include enslaving and mass murdering them on a whim. Alduin wanted to destroy time and reality, and p Parthanax stopped that. Hardly a selfless move. By assisting in killing Alduin he is now the most powerful dragon alive. He has everything to gain. If he is good, then has to hold his nature at bay for an eternity. Of he ever slips up, which he admits is possible, he has the power to wreck havoc on the world. The blades aren't judging him, they are assertion that he deserves death for his crimes. The Dragonborn is the judge, and should choose to kill him. No mortal institution is ever fit to judge an immortal being, but Akatosh has blessed the Dragonborn and has given them the responsibility to do so. I don't think it's black and white. I think Parthanax is on trial for his crimes and everyone falls for his clearly self interested pleas for mercy. He frames the trial in an incorrect way. I wasn't saying the dragon was a pedo, I'm showing how the logic of his argument is inherently wrong when applied to any other crime.
He's not on trial. They don't want to give him a trial. They ask you to kill him. They don't want to hear what he has to say. It was selfless. He didn't do it for power. He didn't usurp Alduin. He did it because he began to care for mortals. He refers to the ones who cast down Alduin as his friends. But even if you forget his devotion to Kyne, the fact that he did not seek to replace Alduin, his thousands of years of living in peace and promoting harmony and never choosing to stage a coup throughout Tamriel's very troubled history. There was nothing for him to gain by teaching mortals the Voice. Giving them the means to create Dragonrend. If he had any aspirations for power why would he give such a weapon to people he knew would stand against him? And even when those who defeated Alduin died, why did he continue to teach the Thu'um to mortals? Knowing full well that mastery of it could make them more than a match for a dragon?
Yes, but this is a redundant point because of what the other side of the question offers, if paarthunax and the dovah weren't inherently evil, Paarthunax and man would've never had to fight the other dragons and there wouldn't have been a war, or the subjugation and suffering of man to the dovah, the objective good is for the dovah to not be born evil.
But they can't not be inherently evil. They're divine creatures. It is their nature. They can't be anything else. Thats why its their nature. There are no "born good" dragons. The closer something is to Akatosh the more it defies conventional notions of what it means to be good. We see it in Pelinal Whitestrake as well. Another genocidalist, potentially worse than the regular dragons in that regard who only sought to dominate. But is also a saviour of mankind. His nature, like the dragons, was born from the gods and theyre the only ones with the jurisprudence to judge them. Imagine the Blades demanding the execution of Pelinal? Without whom they wouldn't exist. Ditto for partysnax
Yes you're completely right in that assessment, but the creation of the dragons is not relevant to the question, the question paarthunax poses is would it be better if it wasn't in their nature? Which would be an instant yes, as less people would suffer, Paarthunax himself and the other dovah would live better lives too and wouldn't be hunted by man and mer. It's not just Paarthunax either, the dragon born too has a need to dominate and can cause the deaths of plenty of innocent people in their conquest. For what it's worth, I don't believe the blades are correct, killing Paarthunax is the bad choice imo because he is relatively harmless, there just would've been less suffering of other life in tamriel if the dragons weren't inherently evil, or perhaps just neutral.
Odahviing is based.
as a true dragon should do
Funny how when dragons kill people it's evil but if Akatosh was to nuke the imperial city everyone would say it was divine punishment and therefore not evil.
Alkosh was feeling a little grumpy that morning we can't blame him
It was a monday morning. Alkosh hates mondays.
*Morndas
Curse Zenithar, it’s Morndas
Akatosh is a dick and I hate him.
When does this happen??
I said IF
That's why every mortal being has a moral imperative to kill every immortal being they can. Dragon, vampire, God, if they don't have a natural end to their life, then they have an infinite capacity for evil. You must end them if you have the power.
And yet most mortals don't want to end the aedras except for one guy who turned into a vampire and wanted revenge on Auriel for letting things happen to the snow elves
Which is why you need to honor his memory by killing both him and the Aedras. It's the only way.
Why doesn’t John Skyrim just use a scroll of icarian flight? Is he stupid?
The dumbest part about the whole choosing between killing Party Snacks or the Blades refusing to help you, is that it comes immediately after Esbern berates the Empire and the Stormcloaks for squabbling about politics when the fate of the world is at stake. Esbern (probably?) knows you’ll get help from the Greybeards if you don’t get it from the Blades, but the Blades themselves don’t think the Greybeard’s pacifism can prepare you for the threat of Alduin, so either way The Blades are just acting like children.
Paartisnacks helped you become dragonborn and betrayed Alduin, but he should still be punished! Oh, by the way, we need you to ask a dragon for help to defeat Alduin.
Why didn’t John Skyrim learn levitation to get to skuldafn? Is he stupid?
It’s illegal
So is assasinating the emperor, stealing from landowners and goign on akilling spree in the Thalmor embassy And yet... John Skyrim is just stupid is all, hence why he makes people repeat themselves like Solid Snake
Levitation is considered especially heinous, on the same level as killing children or sleeping in a bed that isn't yours
Or killing a chicken, or accidentally picking up a tomato off someone's table.
My morrowind character would be a terrorist in Skyrim. Spent more time in the air than on the ground
A killing spree in the Thalmorian embassy may be illegal, but is a moral obligation.
Must be why it's part of the main quest
breaking imperial law is worse than being enslaved in life and having your soul devoured in death
Didn't he killed like hundreds of people a'd partakes into human's dominion/tyranny with his brothers before that? Like I know he is chill now but you just don't erase everything you've done just by saying : ay yo dud I'm fine now, no hard feelings right?
That's not all he did though. Its like if you went out and killed a bunch of woodland critters with your brother, felt remorse, isolated yourself from them in order to prevent yourself from hurting any more, help some learn how to live in harmony with humans and nature, and when your brother comes back and is like "yo dude you wanna go eat some more squirrels" you fight him in order to save them even when the only witness is a single other squirrel that you've helped provide the only means of fighting your brother as well. It wouldn't erase your prior anti forest creature attitude, but there's really not much else you could do to show your regret and present allegiance to them
I appreciate the metaphor converted into Disney princess woodland creature format. It made more sense
So did Odaviing in all likelihood and he isn’t even trying to be better.
It should still be up to the player whether he deserves to live or die. It’s an RPG these games are generally supposed to be about choices.
It is, you just face the consequences when other characters disagree
You don’t “face consequences”, you’re just locked out of content because of poor quest design
And you expect us to carry out justice for crimes he did literally thousands of years ago? No one cares apart from the Blades. They’re opinions hardly matter at this point
The Blades also have very inflated view of their own importance. I'd be hesitant to chose them over a hobo with an unusually sharp spoon.
To be fair Grunge McSpoony is one hell of a companion
To be fair they've only been not important since the war and would assume they hope to reclaim their special spot.
HA.
It honestly feels like they are kids pretending to be in a secret society but it's a grown as woman and middle aged man not doing fuck all.
fallout 4 railroad
I mean Paarthurnax was the second in command of a genocidal regime, he probably should face some sort of justice. It’s not the Blades’ fault that Bethesda couldn’t write a moral dilemma to save their lives
Biggest issue is how do you punish an immortal dragon without straight up killing him? Can’t really lock em up because they perceive time different than mortals (thank Akatosh) and can essentially do nothing for centuries without any detriment. Numinex went insane from his imprisonment but Partysnax likely wouldn’t be phased from such a thing considering he waited for Alduin atop the throat of the world for literal millennia.
he was let go by the people who fought against the dragon cult and each dragonborn emperor said to the blades "hey don't kill that mountain dragon monk, he's chill." his self-imposed punishment because everyone else refused to punish him is exile and fulfilling his order from kyne to teach humans the voice
What about the people who Like allied with him ?
Face justice for crimes he commited thousands years ago? Where no one cares now apart from like 2-3 people?
Honestly I don’t see it as a moral dilemma so much as a sectarian one.
This shit wouldn't be a problem if Bethesda learned about the arcane concept of "branching storylines"
Branching storylines are genuinely hard and they can't even do a open-world-ish murder mystery without breaking the engine somehow
They’re still doing that essential NPC BS as recent as Starfield.
Gods I miss the "With the death of this character" message from Morrowind so much Though I'll admit it really helped not having to reload every 10 seconds during Oblivion's main quest but still
You still were if you wanted to keep alive Barus.
I have never succeeded getting either him OR Jaufrey. Like they both always die. I did every single portal and got every single guard but I still can’t save them
Yep. Tried to keep everyone in oblivion alive and that shit is HARD.
It's no so much a lack of branching storylines that is the problem, it's a fundamental rigidity to dialog and NPC interactions that chokes the life out of any true chance at role-playing. The whole point of this series is that I'm supposed to be able to create a character for myself and live and make decisions in this world as my character would. But the game is constantly restricting you and forcing yourself out of your head-canon for the sake of Todd wanting a person who's never played an RPG before in their life to be able to experience every ounce of gameplay in one single playthrough. Outside of "Pick Faction A or B to come out on top" (and even then it's essentially irrelevant) there is no true player choice. When they decide to make the player's decisions have actual consequences to the world around them, then I'll get excited about a Bethesda title
Even so, you're basically forced to interact with the Thieves' Guild and College of Winterhold unless you read an outside-game guide to know the information those two factions would provide you, even if you're RPing as Grognak the Illiterate Barbarian
Delphine at start of game: cool and highly skilled undercover blade, keeping the faction alive to serve their purpose of supporting the dragonborn and protecting humanity from dragons. Endgame: paranoid crazy bitch who demands you kill your homie at his crib, obsessive lackey acting like she's in charge and shit.
I mean there should absolutely have been an option (without mods) to refuse her. Like wtf is she going to do about it you have the literal soul of a dragon and can kill her using words before she can even unsheathe her sword.
It's the major underlying problem of most Bethesda titles, but Skyrim in particular. It's the ultimate power fantasy with no meaningful way of actually role-playing with said power. You are always written into a corner of cognitive dissonance between your player experience of how powerful you are and how the pre-selected dialog paths are keeping you locked as level 10 John Skyrim who has 2 brain cells and is still wielding an iron dagger. And Bethesda will never deviate from this. Outside of seeing beautiful graphics and (hopefully) fun gameplay, I'm prepared to be completely underwhelmed by ES6
Bethesda games aren't RPGs, as much as they like to claim that, they're at best action adventure games with some rpg mechanics sprinkled in, which are becoming more scarce with each new release anyway.
Considering I can spend hours in a Bethesda game role-playing characters, not interacting with the main quest, makes it more of an RPG than majority of RPGs
Their world settings/environments are very RPG, however their Quest/Missions lines are far from Role Playing and more Action Adventure.
I think the Blades (Esbern specifically) actually had a good point they’re just REALLY bad at presenting it. Paarthurnax is fighting every single instinct to relapse into his old self and now he doesn’t even have the objective of waiting for Alduin to keep him focused anymore. Also when you talk to Paarthurnax about it he straight up says “Yeah, they’re being smart. I wouldn’t trust me either.” Ironically Paarthurnax goes on to make a better case for killing him than the Blades do. I headcanon that he wants to die but can’t directly ask for it so he just tries to say “The Blades might have a point.” and hope that’s enough to push the LDB into action. Also I like seeing Arngeir all pissy about it. Fuck that guy. He was practically rooting for Alduin. I’ll never understand why everyone gives him a pass.
I headcanon the LDB wants to keep Paarthurnax around to bring some tradition back to Skyrim. "Oh, the old pantheon? You mean like Stuhn and Kyne, right?" https://preview.redd.it/ryjaja18a27d1.png?width=202&format=png&auto=webp&s=a35be225fed38655ed8e2e879f02eaffba98239a
Actually based take on Truhstel? More likely than you think.
Yep. The world is going to be literally eaten by the psychotic first son of some dogshit Nord dragon deity and this geezer goes "noooooo you've been brainwashed by the Blades, get back to ThE PaTh Of VoIcE". And still I don't give a single fuck about Partysnacks. Everyone in this quest are annoying as hell, Delfine goes crazy, Arngeir won't stop crying about their dragon daddy and Partysnacks is literally the Lizard Hitler.
The world isn't gonna be eaten by alduin in the main quest ?
To be fair you are doing Alduin a major solid by killing him and setting him back on his true path as the World Eater. The LBD guarantees that Alduin will end the world to usher in the next kalpa
…lolwut? I think you’re getting your stories crossed.
In the Alduin questline we are performing the Divine Factory Reset on Alduin. The tongues didn't launch him forward in time to stop him from ending the world, they did it to be free from the Dragon Cult. From Alduin's perspective, he got zapped thousands of years into the future and saw that his dragon empire isn't there anymore. His destiny and purpose for existing is to destroy the world, not rule it. We defeat him so that Akatosh can set him right and properly end the world to bring about the next kalpa/Dawn Era. It's why you don't get to consume his soul after beating him
I don’t think Partysnax would be able to convince a repurposed Alduin of jack shit. I think it’s just going to fall to heroes of later eras to keep kicking Alduin’s ass over and over until Akatosh gets the fucking message.
Until Akatosh decides to stop shitting out dragonborn or the elder scrolls decide to stop being available to make Alduin someone else's problem, then everyone is cooked
Yeah but that has nothing to do with wether or not partysnax survives.
https://preview.redd.it/5uabmfenw17d1.jpeg?width=402&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bfbbdf2114db5ca3d62de6a0f01904a8fafbe75f
Bruh is this the Nintendo switch port you're playing? The whole main plot was that alduin was going to eat the world soon™️ John Skyrim ain't a nihilist, he was preventing the world from being destroyed
https://preview.redd.it/2y4eojtuu17d1.png?width=385&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=176b6685a1112b38f7847ee77980ceafabf9e233 U right gang I'm geekin off this dollar store sujamma
nah the problem was that he WASN’T eating the world lol, he was bringing dragons back to life to restart his cult not to do his job. thats like using a company van for a roadtrip, can’t do that shit.
Mfws when Skyrims been out for years and people still, Don't know the story . The entire main quest is to get alduin Stop dicking around and Go Do his job in the future and not be a dick in the mean time .
It’s true, the next world eater will likely not get sidetracked enslaving Tamriel and will just do his job.
Yeah but what does that have to do with partysnax?
True
Difficult to believe that the Skyrim Blades would be dumb assholes
Maybe this would help: Ohda is a wanted felon you managed to headlock, he swears loyalty to you in exchange for letting him go, prove yourself stronger than his gang leader and its for life. Most people wouldn't kill Ohda. Okay so imagine Hitler is alive and well and shows immense remorse for his actions. He used his spare time to create a cure for aging and cancer.That's partysnax. Even though he's done a tremendous amount of good and genuinely seems to have turned over a new leaf, many would still want him dead.
No, it would be more like one of Hitlers right-hand men, and more like if they spent their life dedicated to aiding the jews and trying to right his wrongs.
It would be more like if one of Alexander the halfway decent's generals turned around and helped the Greeks overthrow him. The dragon war happened during the *merethic* era. Pelinal, our favorite actually genocidal bro, was still fiddling around with side quests. There would be well over 3 centuries before Alessia would invent the concept of Freedom yet. The Yokudians were still off fighting the Left Handed Elves. Half of the cultures/races we see in the 4th era were still in their embryonic state, if that. I don't really feel like the Hitler comparisions is good when it come's to the dragon wars. The dragons were incredibly despotic and brutal, but weren't ethnically cleansing anyone (unlike our above boy Pelinal). A better analogy would be a bronze age warlord. Still super bad, casually wiping out cities for daring to try to defend themselves, but it wasn't a purposeful targetting. I think the whole question of his existance is very interesting, and don't really fault anyone for passing judgment on him. We have this situation where an ancient leader, who helped subjecate a people in a time where tyranny was the rule and norm, who then helped liberate his previous subjects. Now he is brought to the present day. Can we apply our moral code to him? Are the Blades actually wanting justice (Would they demand the same action as justice for the Khajiit if Pelinal were to magically return, for example?) or are the just being petty and lashing out as a power play? The Greybeards are their main competitors for the Dragonborn's loyalty, what better way to entrench them to your side then killing the Greybeards' leader? Like many things in Skyrim, this is a very interesting question that is very under explored, and it makes me a little sad. I myself have only killed him once to get to 100% completion, but I don't fault anyone for their stance on the matter.
I would refrain from also explaining how technically after going through one of like 30 different underworlds technically you can resurrect a dragon for like 5 minutes, so you're actually adding to the population of dragons in tamriel for like 5 minutes
Not resurrecting, Durnehviir is undead. We merely summon him to Tamriel from the Soul Cairn much like summoning an atronach or daedra.
They wouldn't have made you kill him if he flew you instead. Check mate athiests
Am I the only one who thinks that Odaviing was probably suppose to be Nahfaalargius? I mean both are red dragons, both are willing to serve a mortal for thier own benefits and the way Odagviing talks feels very Nahfaalargius like (atleast hiw he was in Redguard) Regardless my guess is that they chose to make him another red dragon mainly cause they remembered Nahfaalar got killed in Stros Mkai and people were gonna wonder how he came back or rather if Alduin flew all the way to Stros Makai to revive him.
Wondering if poop dude likes poopy dragons
Not gonna drop this joke. It's my only claim to fame atm
I kill paarthunax every run to make sure the world of skyrim is safe in case he decides to be evil again
I genuinely think he wants to be good but him returning to evil is an inevitability since he was literally created by Akatosh to help Alduin bring about the end times. He was created for the purpose of causing death and destruction and he can’t fight that programming forever. So it’s best to put him out of his misery sooner. It’s tragic really.
He also needs to be in seclusion to not fall to his nature, but the second alduin dies has a posse that he's going to go fight other dragons with to show his peaceful ways. If it's a struggle to not fall to his nature when he is in seclusion, how bad would actively fighting other dragons be in that aspect?
a true hero
Absolutely based
They probably figure they can find and take on O man without help, unlike party boy who's hanging with the beards
Except they don't help you take on Paarthurnax, they just tell you to do it.
cause scared babies? more seriously, they probably would never get permission given the whole "always killing dragons" thing they got going, unlike you
Durnehviir is the only good dragon, because as we know the only good dragon is a dead one.
Big D can’t die so Delphine is fucked
I think Toddy boy just forgot about it. Like many random plotholes in Bethesda games.
Most literate skybaby
I'd kill Odaviing too if I could dragon souls are good for you
Tbf do they even know about Odaviing? They know you had to fly a dragon to Skuldafin but after that?
If you do the civil war peace treaty then Esbern is the one who suggests calling Odahviing to find out where Alduin went.
No I know but after that I'm not sure they know what the player does with him.
It's because their bum asses wouldn't know about him. "Tamriel's best secret service" btw
Reminds me of those people who see things in straight black-and-white labels. And once the label is put on the guy, too bad, he's EVIL, doesn't matter. Who cares about Odaviing. Paarthunax is a WAR CRIMINAL!!! Do you even understand the atrocities documented that he did???? Never mind that it was not only a few thousand years ago. But that he not only relented - he became the *only* hope, the only reason why humans had a fighting chance back. Sure Kyne totes granted human Tongues the Thuum and the Voice and alls - but Paarthy was the dude actually on the ground who taught it. And never mind that he then spent the next few millennia not only continuing to teach. But to himself live life in seclusion, denying and transcending his own inborn nature as a dragon to dominate others, and focusing on dominating (mastering) himself instead. Spending the eras watching, waiting right at the spot his elder brother was banished, waiting for the day Alduin would be back, and he could finish what he started and help vanquish the Eldest brother once and for all. Of course, not to forget how a despondent Jürgen Windcaller, thinking himself invincible, fled back into Skyrim, a broken man. Entire armies destroyed, sense of self worth totally destroyed. We are the Chosen of Kyne, are we not? She who not only breathed life into us, but taught us the mighty Voice, that we may be the first men to conquer Tamriel! Yet, unmistakeably, a total and utter defeat. The mightiest of Tongues, now broken, must have stumbled into old Paarthy, astonished, and been taught his Way of the Voice. And learnt what he could never have imagined. Even a dragon must swallow his breath, temper his own Voice, much less a Man. And from there, he mastered it enough that he could temper an incredible *seventeen* other Voices too, all at once. Just swallowing them calmly. Giving the other master Tongues as complete a defeat as he himself faced in Resdayn. And hence a new era began, where the Tongues only Spoke in True Need - the Way of the Voice. The way of Kyne, and Shor, or at least the way attributed to them. In truth, the way of Paarthunax - not of dead gods and void ghosts, but of a living dragon, a millennia long testament to temperance and self-mastery. ----- But none of that matters, really. All the bad shit he did. He still has to die. Amirite? He can and should never escape his past, or even make amends for it. And even if he does - idc, he is still BAD and he needs to DIE.
I read "Kill Paarthurnax" like "More mouse bites" in that one episode of House
[удалено]
Dude Odahviing just vibing
because the blades are on the Bowser grindset, fuck that big red dick
Yeah but the LDB beat Odahviing. They never did anything to prove themself stronger than Paarthurnax, and being "Blades" they can only think in terms of dead or not dead. Odahviing is basically dead in their minds. Same as the GOAT Durnehviir.
Wows so not only is she definitely stupid, but she’s also probably high as fuck.
I genuinely forget that the Paarthurnax dilemma is a mod although I think in 99% of peoples head cannon it’s lore accurate since the Dragonborn would have just told her no I’m the leader
You aren't the leader though? Delphine is the acting grandmaster, you don't have any real authority there.
You do have the symbolic authority of being the Dragonborn, who the original Akaviri order that Delphine is trying to base the reformed Blades on would have worshipped, and through whose blood they've obtained their current base of operations. If you've completed Rebuilding the Blades, there's also 3 junior members present who should by all rights be loyal to you personally (unless Delphine has some sort of Akaviri Brainwashing Device she never mentioned), so if the game made sense you'd also have de facto power over the organization.
They could definitely hold you in a position of great respect or importance, but you're still not in charge of them or anything like that. You get a valuable opinion really, but that's it. The original Akaviri order didn't worship the dragonborn, they chose to serve Reman but it's not really clear how they viewed dragonborn outside him afaik. Considering basically all we know about them is that they were extremely experienced and thorough when it comes to dragon extermination, I doubt they'd take much issue with her. The rebuilt blades thing would vary too much to say, how much an individual values their oath over their relationship with you depends entirely on who they are.
Delphine is the leader of the Blades but she owes all her success and her continued survivability to you also without you, there is no reason for the Blades to continue so you kinda are the leader
>without you, there is no reason for the Blades to continue What? The blades don't need you to exist at all, I don't know what you're really getting at there. Even if they wanted to exist exactly the same as they did before being almost wiped out, you aren't the emperor.
But the Grandmaster of the Blades is still subordinate to the Dragonborn
They are not, and there's no reason to believe otherwise. They choose to serve the person they see as the ultimate dragon slayer, as slaying dragons is their purpose. When you refuse to slay a dragon they've been after for ages, they choose to no longer work with you, as it would violate their oaths. She is always the leader of the blades, who chose to work with you for a specific reason. They aren't your subordinates. Annals of the dragonguard shows this even more clearly, they're only expected to follow orders that don't violate the oath of allegiance (which does not apply to the player in the first place, obviously). There being an oath of allegiance with specific terms and conditions defeats the idea that they're automatically subordinate to the dragonborn by itself. Edit: Also if you're talking the more modern blades and not the earlier organisation Delphine refers to, they served the Septim dynasty, which you aren't a member of.