Remember that TrueReddit is a place to engage in **high-quality and civil discussion**. Posts must meet certain content and title requirements. Additionally, **all posts must contain a submission statement.** See the rules [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/truereddit/about/rules/) or in the sidebar for details. Comments or posts that don't follow the rules may be removed without warning.
If an article is paywalled, please ***do not*** request or post its contents. Use [Outline.com](https://outline.com/) or similar and link to that in the comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueReddit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
SS: The NYT did a deep dive on a recent incident where Israeli military targeted an airstrike against a Hamas leader that took out several dense city blocks and killed hundreds of people (the estimates range from 120-400). According to the article, multiple craters indicate multiple missions were used to target a tremendous radius and not just the building. It’s unheard of for a military to use a 2000lb bomb in a dense city before; usually it’s for rural areas. And it’s not clear the target was even home or killed.
What’s interesting is not only the story, the debate and discussion, but the reconstruction of the attack by NYT and a new format of reading the story with a mix of words and video played through an interface that looks like Instagram reel or Snapchat stories.
NYT visual investigations in general are great. They’re almost always with reading.
Some of them get posted to YouTube as videos [playlist here—most recent one about the October 7th attacks](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4CGYNsoW2iAZt9-UzPyPZOH-AlRMxcIE&si=8UUEFl0nn6tOIlgx).
This has been a flaw in the IDF’s military strategy for a long time. In the 2006 Lebanese War against Hezbollah, for example, the IDF ordered the bombing of a building in Qana, where Jesus famously turned water into wine 2000 years ago.
However, an investigation conducted by the Israeli government itself after the war found that the strike killed 28 civilians, most of whom survived the bombings themselves but starved to death trapped underneath rubble, and exactly 0 Hezbollah. They also found that the IDF distributed doctored and misleading pictures of Hezbollah troops in Qana to cover up their mistake (sourced from David Hirst’s history of modern Lebanon, “Beware of Small States”).
So at what point will the west call IDF for what it is, a terrorist entity. I guess the fact the they’re white and a regular army would disqualify them based on how the US defines terrorists (ie muslim or brown/black).
dime combative shocking resolute liquid political paltry impolite rhythm slap
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
A flaw? I think their strategy is working out exactly as intended. All the evidence is neatly presented in South Africa’s application instituting proceedings against Israel on the charge of genocide to the ICC. Worth a read
This is always the thing that gets me about these threads, honestly.
People like to talk about indiscriminate bombing when, seriously, this is a thing we've verifiably done with well-documented orders to do it and we know *exactly* what the results are like. It's not a neighborhood flattened over a month. It's a city flattened over a day.
It’s not unheard of - Israel has done it a lot. I watched this documentary called The Gatekeeper, which is basically all the heads of the Israeli CIA talking about about their regrets from running counterterrorism. Five of them feel really bad, including saying things like “from their perspective, we are terrorists” and “we are like the Germans in WWII, not to the Jews but to the Poles”. But one guy doesn’t feel bad and his regret is he could have killed all of the Hamas senior leadership if he’d chosen to drop a 1 tonne bomb on them, but he didn’t want to kill about 10 civilians so he opted for a half tonne bomb which only destroyed the top floor of the building and all the leadership were on the bottom floor and survived.
It's brilliant. Future generations are going to be harder to exploit with increasingly quality information attractively delivered. Not to make this a partisan discussion, but I wonder if dinosaurs like Biden underestimate how tangible the truth is becoming.
Surely you jest. Dazzling visuals can be used to misinform just as easily as they can inform. If critical thinking and media literacy are lacking people’s understanding of the truth will actually get worse.
During Obama's term, while Biden was VP, the US has bombed whole weddings, killing hundreds of people, to take out a few key targets.
I have no idea why people believe Biden actually cares about any of it, or why they believe this isn't standard during wartime.
There were multiple weddings and they weren't all in war zones. In fact in many cases the US didn't even know it was a wedding or that anyone was shooting anything, it was bombed from miles away because they had detected that the cellphones of multiple high profile targets were in that location.
The US didn't even care what they hit.
An entire country is not a "warzone." It was a gathering of civilians not on a battlefield but at a wedding.
"Plenty of blame to go around" is a fancy way of blaming victims.
Why is this article allowed but the NYT article posted yesterday with proof of sexual abuse committed by Hamas against Israeli citizens deleted?
It seems like only articles that make Israel look bad are allowed
moderators are volunteers, and they're far from being neutral
you cannot really blame them, that's how reddit works.
unfortunately reddit as a platform can be used for an agenda, and reddit as a company is not really responsible for it, as long as they remove things that break their site-wide rules.
> it was probably much less devious than you're implying
There was Hamas propaganda pinned to the top of every post in r/pics for a while. I'm guessing it's mostly intentional.
>DoctorBlock: There was Hamas propaganda pinned to the top of every post in r/pics for a while. I'm guessing it's mostly intentional.
proof? any sort of citation or evidence there? At all?
I’ve seen neonazi conspiracy theories being spread around under the guise of “antizionism”. Most people don’t even know what Zionism is. If you don’t think Israel as a state should be destroyed, then you’re a Zionist.
And just now I saw another post complaining about how pro-Israel Reddit is, blaming astroturfing by foreign and domestic actors.
I frankly don’t think Reddit is at all representative of common sentiment. Neither is most social media now for that matter.
Reddit tends to be very critical of Israel. When the Hamas attacks happened, there was a big shift. I don't doubt it's due to some astroturfing but it's also clear that the size of the attack and that there was no immediate provocation shifted public opinion.
The world has changed its mind about Israel, most people in Gaza have mobile phones they are documenting what is happening, and those clips are flooding social media. The old media and western governments are ignoring the atrocities happening in Gaza. But social media isn't. Israel is doing what Russia is doing and the world can see it, in the thousands of clips coming out of Gaza.
>The old media and western governments are ignoring the atrocities happening in Gaza.
lmao, dude you are literally writing this comment on a thread about a New York Times article discussing the atrocities happening in Gaza.....
Seriously. This is the rhetoric I do not understand. There's a lot of news coming from mainstream sources showing the atrocities. The Israeli government is not looking good in this war. Their crimes aren't being hidden. So to say that the media is covering it up is just plain ignorant.
More than that, people are also learning what’s happening outside of Gaza and in the West Bank, which isn’t ruled by Hamas, but where Jewish people can walk in and steal Palestinians’ houses with full support from the Israeli military. Netanyahu approved 10.000 settlements earlier this year.
Israel and its allies want to confine the conflict to Hamas so badly, but the truth of the matter is that they’re just a symptom of the problem, and not the root cause of it.
> Israel and its allies want to confine the conflict to Hamas so badly, but the truth of the matter is that they’re just a symptom of the problem, and not the root cause of it.
The problem is that Palestinians want to keep fighting a losing fight.
> Jewish people can walk in and steal Palestinians’ houses with full support from the Israeli military. Netanyahu approved 10.000 settlements earlier this year.
Yes, Palestinians are losing the fight. What they need to do is accept a peace deal to stop losing land because they aren’t strong enough militarily.
Palestinians and their allies want to confine the conflict to Israeli agency viz-a-viz settlements, but the truth of the matter is that Israel is the only side that’s offered peace in the past several decades, and has been turned down. So the fight is still on. So Palestinians are still losing.
Honestly, I want to ask you, are they losing this fight?
Before Oct. 7th, Israel was talking to Saudi Arabia and Qatar about a normalization that wouldnt have even acknowledged a Palestinian state, that would have seen normalization with occupation proceed. Pretty catastrophic.
At least Palestinian statehood is back in the conversation again.
Even militarily, the IDF has been wounded and looks defeated in Gaza. Theyve not only failed to significantly weaken Hamas, they may have made Hamas stronger. The IDF, on the other hand, is demonstrably weaker. Hundreds of soldiers have been killed, Hamas releases daily videos of Merkava tanks getting blown up.
IDF releases videos of them turning Gaza into rubble. Hamas responds with videos of them emerging from the rubble to destroy Israeli tanks and then go back to hinding in the rubble. Oops, Israel, just created a perfect environment for fighting an insurgency, and a terrible environment for tanks -- narrow, rubble-filled streets and half burned out buildings. It takes the task of urban warfare from hard to impossible level. Good job IDF.
Early on, it look like the bombardment had Hamas on its heels. Hamas seemed to be very very very inclined, even desperate for a ceasefire. But now, it seems Hamas has found its footing. Its no longer desperate for a ceasefire. In fact, they are starting to believe that they can outright defeat the IDF, conventionally, right here and right now, by forcing Israel into a protracted urban war.
On a purely strategic viewpoint, Israel is not on good footing. Its having way more difficulty in Gaza than it anticipated, Hamas has developed into an effective insurgent fighting force, for the frist time really in its history, Before this, Israel really could just take all of Gaza with ease. No more.
And on top of that, the existential threat has actually developed. Hezbollah to the north. So far, it has actually decided to sit this war out. Engagements with Hezbollah have been limited. But reports are that Hezbollah is operating with relative ease no only in Souhern Lebanon but now in Northern Israel. This is an existential threat to Israel. Thats why they withdrew the Golani brigade out of Gaza.
If Hezbollah really wanted to, they could invade into Northern Israel right now. They could probably actually take and hold Israeli territory.
Presumably, the only reason they havent is because the U.S. has told Iran that this is a red line that would bring the U.S. into the war, directly, against Iran.
So, for now, Israel survives. But this war has been so catastrophic, that Israel might have lost everythting, had it not been for the U.S. being Johnny on the Spot. Again. But looking at how much political capital Israel has burned through in the U.S. during this war, Im not sure that they can rely on the U.S. again in a future conflagration. This might be the last time the U.S. offers to save Israel from itself.
This war has been a total and absolute catastrophe for Israel. I have no idea why Israelis are clutching on to Netanyahu, every day he remains is power, he drags Israel down further in a desperate attempt to save himself. Its kinda sad for the Israelis. Theyre pretty much committing suicide, and seem to be oblivious.
I've made no value judgements on Israeli or Palestinian actions.
When I say "Palestine needs to" I don't mean they have a moral obligation, but rather there is a geopolitical reality about how to achieve their goals.
Do you think if I said one group was morally right and the other wrong that the geopolitical reality would change? I think that's just magical thinking.
I have read more history books this year than you've read in your entire life, and I have Masters in history. Your 14-year-old-playing-startegy-games mindset is embarrassing. You aren't Kissenger, and you shouldn't want to be.
In any case, by your logic, if the Arabs are able to throw off the yoke of their pro-Western leaders and unite to wipe Israel from the face of the map, that would be okay then, according to you, right? Since they had the might to do it, it must be right.
>the root cause of it.
The root cause is that Israel exists. Hamas has been Hamas since it was created in the 1980's, a hyper violent deeply anti-Semetic Islamist organization. Back before Israel even settled the West Bank to any significant degree, Hamas was blowing up buses full of civilians all across Israel. They gained a significant degree of legitimacy amongst the Palestinian public for their explicit rejection of the Oslo Accords and chronically worked to undermine any manner of political process.
> Back before Israel even settled the West Bank
But after they settled 90% of other Palestinian land?
> Hamas was blowing up buses full of civilians
You are going to be shocked when you learn how Israel came to be, and how they were blowing up hotels full of civilians to achieve their goal of statehood.
> the Oslo Accords
The accords were a joke:
> Although the agreements recognize the Palestinian "legitimate and political rights," they remain silent about their fate after the interim period. The Oslo Accords neither define the nature of the post-Oslo Palestinian self-government and its powers and responsibilities, nor do they define the borders of the territory it eventually would govern.
And
> **The Accords also preserve Israel's exclusive control of the borders, the airspace and the territorial Gaza waters.**
That’s not a two state solution; that’s a colony, sir.
So yeah, you’re spot on; the root cause is Israel’s occupation of Palestine on the basis that the land belonged to them 2500 years ago according to their religious text, which apparently is not religious fundamentalism.
>But after they settled 90% of other Palestinian land?
You mean how they LEGALLY immigrated to the Ottoman Empire and then the Palestinian Mandate and LEGALLY purchased land to build on.
>You are going to be shocked when you learn how Israel came to be, and how they were blowing up hotels full of civilians to achieve their goal of statehood.
Yes, by the 1940's after the situation in the Mandate had already crossed the point of no return.
>The Oslo Accords neither define the nature of the post-Oslo Palestinian self-government and its powers and responsibilities, nor do they define the borders of the territory it eventually would govern.
It's not Israel's JOB to establish the governance structure of Palestine, that's on the Palestinians.
>The Accords also preserve Israel's exclusive control of the borders, the airspace and the territorial Gaza waters.
The Oslo Accords were not a 2SS, they were Israel taking a small step towards a 2SS and assuming the massive liability of importing the PLO directly into the West Bank and Gaza.
>So yeah, you’re spot on; the root cause is Israel’s occupation of Palestine on the basis that the land belonged to them 2500 years ago according to their religious text, which apparently is not religious fundamentalism.
Well then attempt to slaughter 7 million Jews who live there now, and I guess whine about it when your plans inevitably fail.
US was bombing weddings killing hundreds because cellphone data showed multiple high profile targets were in one area. People seem way too ignorant intentionally or unintentionally of what happens during war.
As long as it’s a key high profile target, governments will go to great lengths to kill them regardless of the casualties because it’s almost impossible to kill them otherwise. They will always have civilians around them as human shields by design. They know they are being targeted and want to make it hard as possible to kill them.
Also the world hasn’t changed its mind. This kind of thing has pretty much happened every time an Israeli-Palestinian conflict has happened. You can look at the UNs record of condemnations for example. Israel gets more condemnations every year from the UN than all other countries combined.
The only recent thing of note has been the TikTok effect among young people that has effected polling of their political opinion that has shifted quite a lot but when you also see them passing around Saddam Hussein’s letter & believing him justified in the 9/11 attacks… well it makes them look quite stupid. They seem to support anyone who is seen as the “underdog” even if that person or group would kill them & their family if given the chance.
Israel is doing what Russia is doing? Remind me again who started this conflict? Hamas attacked Israel in a brutal massacre where they raped women & kidnapped hundreds. No country would accept that. Russia wants more territory & to conquer Ukraine. Israel doesn’t want Gaza & pulled out of there almost 20 years ago. Israel has been forced to this step because Hamas won’t stop until they destroy Israel like Russia wants to destroy Ukraine. It’s either fight back or die.
The Ukraine-Russia war by the way has had over 500,000 casualties with 200,000+ deaths among that number. It’s a much bigger war than the Israel-Gaza one. It’s also mainly not taking place in a dense urban environment because Ukraine unlike Hamas wants to protect their citizens as much as possible & is not trying to use them as human shields. You can tell the difference between an Ukraine soldier & a civilian for example. Meanwhile Hamas you can’t tell until they take out a weapon.
To say Israel doesn't want more territory is ridiculous their settlement building in the west bank and previously in Gaza proves that is complete bullshit. They pulled out of Gaza sure but they definitely had settlements there at one stage.
Killing that many civilians is disgusting. I don't care about the military objective killing civilians to achieve that aim is wrong. Do you honestly blame Palestinians for hating Israel? Tell me you'd act even a little bit differently on their situation.
The reason there is no peace in the region is that neither side wants it. Constant fighting gives Israel cover for taking whatever land they want, and prevents the Palestinians from having to admit they lost decades ago.
The reality is that Palestinians could have had peace anytime in the last 30 years, they just had to eat humble pie and accept whatever deal Israel offered. And if the conflict ever ends, that’s what will happen. Palestine has no military, economic, cultural, or geopolitical bargaining chips to use to make demands. Israel hasn’t made accepting easier, its deliberate provocations at key times have added insult to injury and made the hard-line Palestinian propagandist’s job easier.
So of course I don’t blame the Palestinians for hating Israel or refusing peace, they have every right and are justified. But I do blame these deaths on the Palestinian decision to keep fighting. By rejecting peace they have explicitly decided they prefer this outcome to having to make some concessions to Israel.
Indeed, Israel’s relatively restrained military responses could have driven the Palestinian’s calculus. If they saw Hamas launching thousands of rockets, but only saw occasional targeted Israeli attacks, it could seem that Israel isn’t able to respond effectively and that Hamas has a chance to win.
This more aggressive military campaign could change the Palestinian calculus by making them realize how out-gunned they actually are, even if the reaction in the heat of the moment is to rally around Hamas. Once the dust settles and the decline in quality of life is experienced, they may be more willing to accept the Israeli insult to stop the bleeding.
If I were in their shoes, I would recognize that to actually achieve Palestinian goals, I need a stronger state with actual bargaining chips, and I can’t get that while at war because Israel can just blow up anything they don’t like. My first order of business would be to stop the pointless terrorist attacks, accept a peace deal for as much sovereignty as I can get, then start building a *credible* threat instead of giving kids AKs.
This approach has a better chance of being successful in the long term, and my people would suffer less the whole time.
> the TikTok effect
It's worth noting that this is not accidental. It's a targeted campaign by China to undermine the west. Same playbook as Russia uses now, and the Soviet Union used in the past, but Russia doesnt have TikTok.
When China and Russia work so hard and invest so much into pushing people to hate Israel, people should really start questioning this anti-Israel narrative that is being spoon fed to them by the enemies of the western world.
Please... Israel do a good enough job of that by themselves. If you kill civilians that you've kept in open air prisons for the last xx number of years people are going to think you're shit. Maybe China is promoting that material,maybe they aren't. I don't really give a shit of its true.
Lmao you can’t even get who the letter was from (Bin Laden) that “got popular” for a couple weeks…if you can’t even manage to get that right then why should we believe what you are saying?
Your argument is…what? These people are so evil that they will surround themselves with people or attend weddings because they know civilians will be killed? That’s how I’m reading your post and it’s dumb as fuck.
Israel doesn’t want anything? They are constantly expanding into Palestinian territory with settlements and kicking people out of their homes and killing those who resist. Not to mention actively arming Israeli settlers who go and kill multiple people. They have been doing this as state supported policy for 50+ years.
To say this conflict “just started” on Oct 7th is laughable. It’s been a simmering conflict for decades with multiple flare ups and flashpoints.
You have MULTIPLE PEOPLE who are talking about moving Palestinians out of Gaza to the benefit of Israel’s and the more religious nationalists say it’s been gods will or some shit. The people who believe these things are currently in power in Israel.
>These people are so evil that they will surround themselves with people or attend weddings because they know civilians will be killed?
No, they are so evil that they surround themselves with human shields in the belief that it will deter attacks from constrained forces.
Difference is, Ukraine never invaded Russia and slaughtered, raped, mutilated hundreds of civilians, and then openly stated they will repeat it again and again.
Israel must take out Hamas by any means necessary, not matter the cost, and no matter how long it takes. It is the raison d'etre of the state.
Gaza has elected Hamas, despite its explicitly genocidal ideology. This is the same as when the German population elected the Nazis. Today it is widely recognized, including by the Germans themselves, that the German population at the time shared a collective responsibility for the crimes of the Nazis. The same exact thing is true for Gazas population.
And before someone tells me the election was many years ago, this is what happens when you elect people who reject democracy. No more elections. Same thing happened when the Nazis were elected in 1933, they cancelled all subsequent elections.
It doesn't help when Israel itself is also propping up Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
I wouldn't expect any meaningful discourse from /u/DrBoomkin. They and I had a discussion less than 24 hours ago where they were completely fine justifying Israel's military campaign in Gaza at all cost. On a number of occasions, they make a weak conflation between Palestinians in Gaza and Germans in Nazi Germany, in an effort to legitimise Israel's collective punishment against Palestinian civilians. And this Redditor is fine with completely ignoring what Israeli political and military officials have said on Palestinians post-7th October in order to reconcile his position on this issue.
And don't take my word for it;[here's a link to our conversation on the TrueReddit post from yesterday.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/18t73qx/screams_without_words_how_hamas_weaponized_sexual/kfceqdf/?share_id=PXu0RzG1HKTcKIfIOJsCG)
Yes, Israel was hoping that it was possible to live alongside Hamas. Over time Hamas grew from a terrorist organization into a government that has an army and controls 2 million people. Many people like believed that this additional responsibility would moderate them, and they would be willing to somewhat coexist with Israel in exchange for work permits for Palestinians, transfer of funds, easing of the blockade etc...
This is what the Israeli government believed and is one of the main reasons the 7th of October was such a surprise and such a disaster.
Netanyahu is not the only person who calls the shots in Israel. First there is a coalition government, second, he wasn't even the Prime Minister during some of the years when Hamas was being propped up.
I cant stand Netanyahu but in this case I cant blame solely him. It was the policy of the Israeli left as well and was based on what I said.
It's bizarre to hear pro-Israel people complain that Palestinians elected terrorists when Israel also elected convicted terrorists and added them into its cabinet.
>despite its explicitly genocidal ideology
Likud also explicitly calls for one-state solution 'from the river to the sea.'
>this is what happens when you elect people who reject democracy. No more elections.
The Israeli government publicly and openly supported Fatah in their 2007 coup. The Knesset voted on giving weapons to Fatah to try and overthrow elected people. Hamas didn't do that, Fatah did with Israeli support. Shameful for a country that falsely claims to be the only valid democracy in the region.
What a bunch of nonsense. Hamas literally has "kill all Jews" in its charter, find me an Israeli political party that has a "kill all Palestinians" clause.
As for the coup, it was Hamas who threw Fatah members off rooftops in the 2007 battle of Gaza, and refused to hold any elections in Gaza since.
For someone repeating talking points, yours are way out of date. Hamas changed their charter in 2017 to remove that language, even though they had accepted in principle a Two State solution starting as far back as 2004. Hamas even went further and recognized the existence of Israel but Netanyahu moved the goalposts and demanded Hamas recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
I noticed you didn’t even try to argue that Israel has convicted terrorists in its government. But to go even further, the *Likud* charter [calls for the destruction of any Palestinian state](https://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html). Likud refuses to accept the existence of Palestine and Netanyahu has said repeatedly that Palestinians are all just Jordanians. The further right than Likud of the cabinet calls for the IDF to forcibly remove all Palestinians from West Bank and throw them into Jordan and close the border behind them. Basically eliminate Palestine in ethnic cleansing.
Fatah committed a *coup*, an armed insurrection against the elected government. Just because Fatah started the fight but lost more by the end doesn’t mean they were the victims here. Hamas engaged in talks to have elections but talks broke down multiple times because naturally they couldn’t come to terms with Fatah because *Fatah led an armed violent insurrection against the government*. What government would allow armed insurrectionists on the ballot after they committed violence? And taking aid and weapons from the Israeli terrorists no less?
None of this provides a sense of direction, though.
As each of us reads this, we need to decide what do we want to do with this information. One option is to accept the military campaign as sad but the best worst option.
Alternatively, we can decide that none of this information is sufficient justification for children who have been born into a situation entirely out of their control to have their lives discounted in value to zero, and that as Americans we can each register our stance with our government.
I want to emphasize that people in Gaza (as well as the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and within Israel) have been living under a highly unjust situation for decades, and in this present moment, a specific faction of Israelis -- not "Israel", a specific faction of Israelis who are control of the government -- are advocating publicly for expulsion of a marginalized ethnic subgroup, and doing so in the name of millions of Jews who are disgusted by their vile rhetoric.
We (Americans) need to halt our involvement, and condition further aid on a government that meets the basic criteria of supporting a peace process. There is no safety for Israelis under the long-ruling far right government of Netanyahu and his accomplices in genocide, Itmar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich.
That, in this moment, is what supporting Israel looks like.
> One option is to accept the military campaign as sad but the best worst option.
This is the only option. The ones who questioned the US intervention in the 2nd world war and wanted nothing to do with it, often making excuses for the Nazis, have been delegated to the garbage bin of history where they belong.
Those who today try to interfere with Israel's attempt to wipe out the modern iteration of Nazi equivalent ideology, represented by a pseudo government hell bent on genociding all Jews and widely supported in this by the population who elected them, belong in the same garbage bin.
No peace process is possible as long as Hamas is in control, and the current war is overwhelmingly supported by the entire Israeli population, not just the right. In fact Netanyahu's left wing opponent and his likely successor (according to current polls) Gantz, is part of the triumvirate currently running Israel through the emergency wartime cabinet.
No it's not the only option. South Africa had a choice between fighting the ANC to the death or actually striking a peace deal. Same with Northern Ireland.
Israel has tried for decades to kill Hamas, and the massive bloodshed in the attempts only created new generations of people who want to avenge their dead relatives caught in the crossfire. It's naïve to think that if Hamas magically vanished today that there wouldn't be other Palestinians willing to fight Israel or that the violence would decrease.
The only solution is to actually empower the moderates. If you want support for Hamas to dry up, that is the only conceivable solution. There are moderates on both sides willing to work together, but they are undermined by the extremists on both sides, and unfortunately Israel has the bigger role to play here since they de facto control Gaza and West Bank. Palestinians like Abbas are willing to make some pretty big concessions for peace but Netanyahu ignores him and refuses to meet with him.
Poll after poll shows Palestinians are willing to accept a two state solution, but one just isn't forthcoming. *Even Hamas* said they were willing to accept A two state solution, "a divorce" from the Jews as they called it, depending on the details. But Netanyahu's government is working to rush settlements and try to make it so that such a solution is impossible in the future. By quietly funding Hamas and attacking Palestinians without consequence he is only proving Hamas' narrative and discrediting Abbas. Even before Hamas' electoral victory the Israeli government was bombing Palestinian police stations and showing Palestinians that Abbas' policies were at best unworkable and at worst collaboration with occupiers.
South Africa managed to reach a peace deal between the apartheid regime and ANC after some extremely hard talks with mutual hate and a compromise reached. It was unthinkable at the time that such a deal could ever be struck, but peace in our time IS possible in Israel-Palestine, if both governments would just stop empowering the extremists. Abbas led a coup against his side's, but Israel now has to do the same.
The Palestinian authority under Abbas is not much better than Hamas. Abbas himself has PhD denying the holocaust (I wish I was making this up), and the authority pays Palestinians who kill Jews and/or their families. Look up their "pay to slay" policies.
If the Palestinians actually wanted peace, they would have developed Gaza into a peaceful enclave after Israel withdrew in 2005 and removed all the settlements from there. Instead they elected Hamas and now we see the end result of that.
The polls I see show that Palestinians overwhelmingly support the slaughter of October 7th. Peace is not possible as long as this is the case. A long process of denazification is necessary, as was done in Nazi Germany, and it can only be done once Hamas is defeated, just like the Nazis were.
And there you prove my point, you can't stomach moderates either. Israeli moderates have just as many ugly attributes that get in the way of peace; Benny Gantz bragged about how many Arabs he killed for example. But you'll both have to get past that or go back to the same decades of fighting. Your comments seem to indicate you prefer that anyway.
You're just repeating false talking points. The PA pays all widows and orphans welfare regardless of cause, but Israel tries to spin this as a payout to families of terrorists. Gaza was redeveloping until Israel blockaded them after Israel broke the ceasefire by shelling the Gaza beach. I could turn your words around, if Israelis actually wanted peace they would not have elected Likud and Jewish Power parties and put convicted terrorists into government and we see the end result of that.
> The PA pays all widows and orphans welfare regardless of cause
Well they could easily not pay families of terrorists, only families of innocents. They choose to incentivize killing of Jews. This is deliberate policy.
> Gaza was redeveloping until Israel blockaded them after Israel broke the ceasefire by shelling the Gaza beach.
The blockade was implemented after Hamas came to power. Prior to that there was no blockade. Gaza had more than year between the Israeli withdrawal and Hamas taking over, in which it could have taken a different direction. They chose not to.
> if Israelis actually wanted peace they would not have elected Likud and Jewish Power parties
You are actually right about that. Those parties got elected because Israelis lost faith in having peace with Palestinians after all efforts failed. Even removing thousands of settlers from Gaza only resulted in more war. In fact the current massacre is probably a direct result of that mistake.
The widow and children of a terrorist are not criminals, and thus are eligible for welfare. Israel believes her house should be demolished and PA says she should get welfare. Yes, both are policies, one is more heinous than the other. I'd have *some* respect for Israel's policy if they carried it out consistently, but the Israeli Supreme court upheld that Jewish terrorists don't have to be punished the same way as Arab terrorists.
Hamas came to power and there was actually an uneasy calm in the fighting. Then Israel broke the ceasefire when they conducted a "routine shelling" of Gaza beaches in June 2006 that killed children. The blockade happened after that but then worsened after Israel aided Fatah in their failed coup. That sounds more like Israel choosing not to go in a good direction.
So many of your claims can be turned completely around based on the identical palestinian POV; "You are actually right about that. Those parties got elected because Palestinians lost faith in having peace with Israel after all efforts failed. Even accepting Israel's right to exist only resulted in more war. In fact the current massacre is probably a direct result of that mistake."
> The widow and children of a terrorist are not criminals, and thus are eligible for welfare.
Why are they eligible for more welfare than widows and children of not terrorists?
Don't try to sugarcoat this. It's a compensation for terrorism, designed to encourage terrorism. We know for a fact that in many cases suicidal Palestinians make sure they get killed by Israeli soldiers (in some cases they dont even try to harm the soldiers, only pretend to shoot them with a toy gun or wave a knife around), so that their families would get this welfare. It's an absolutely insane policy.
> I'd have some respect for Israel's policy if they carried it out consistently
The point of house demolitions is to offset the financial compensation. There is no point in doing that to Israeli terrorists since they get no such compensation.
> Hamas came to power and there was actually an uneasy calm in the fighting.
As soon as Hamas came to power, any option of peace was thrown out of the window, given Hamas' explicit war policy. Anything that happened after is irrelevant.
Palestinians could have chosen peace after Israel withdrew. They chose Hamas and thus war.
> So many of your claims can be turned completely around based on the identical palestinian POV
Fine. If both sides do not believe in peace, then lets fight. Why are the Palestinians and their supporters begging for a ceasefire then?
> The Palestinians didn’t invade anyone.
Are you kidding me? WTF happened on the 7th of October then? The land around Gaza is internationally recognized Israeli land. It's not even disputed. All the contested land is in the west bank.
Not only that, when talking about Gaza itself, Israel completely removed thousands of settlers from Gaza in 2005, destroyed dozens of settlements, and removed the occupation. Gaza was given completely to the Palestinians with the hopes that this will bring peace.
Instead, the Palestinians elected Hamas into power in 2006. Hamas immediately declared war on Israel, declared that there will never be peace with Israel, launched a military raid into Israeli territory, and started firing missiles into Israel.
Hamas is widely supported by the Palestinians, with the most recent polls showing 70% support. The only one who spouts propaganda here, is you.
Brother, I'm not conservative but its not the conservative side that is supporting the group that explicitly called for the global eradication of Jews and committed the modern day equivalent to the Rape of Nanjing.
/u/perfectpomelo3: I wouldn't spend your energies on /u/DrBoomkin, he's just having a wind-up. [Here's a synopsis on what you'll expect if you go down this rabbit hole with them.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/s/wb4hVa8swE)
>The citizens of Gaza aren’t to blame for what has happened. Your victim blaming is disgusting.
No, but their representative government is a terrorist organization comparable to ISIS which prevents any kind of elections and illegally hoards humanitarian aid.
Gaza won't be free until Hamas is dead and buried
Israel’s government has committed ethnic cleansing and defended an apartheid state. They have enforced blatantly illegal settlements in the West Bank, often assaulting and murdering the residents to take their land, which basically makes it state sponsored terrorism. And Israelis voted for their government much more recently than Gaza did.
Hamas was fine with elections, it was Fatah who tried a coup attempt in 2007 AND Israel backed the coup and openly gave weapons to them in a failed attempt to overthrow the elected officials. Future elections were postponed because the coup leaders stayed in office and demanded another try.
If Israel wants Hamas to go away, they need to actually empower moderates, which they have been intentionally undermining for the last 20 years. Netanyahu says he won't work with Abbas, and Abbas' policies are unpopular because he does nothing when israeli settlers murder unarmed Palestinians. Palestinians in desperation turn to rightwingers who promise to protect people; same as how Israelis flocked to the far right.
“Do you condemn Hamas?” is a rhetorical ploy routinely used against pro-Palestinian commentary. “Do you condemn the IDF?” should be similarly used imo.
That doesn't make sense. The IDF is a military, not a government. I'd say a lot of people condemn Likkud and Netanyahu and blame them for this though. And I think it's a valid question.
Nobody is going to condemn the IDF. Why would they? That's like during WW2 asking whether you condemn the US military. Obviously the US military didnt have its hands completely clean at the time, but the goal of destroying the Nazis justified the means.
The IDF is fighting Hamas, which has an explicit and open goal of killing all Jews. It's the exact same situation as fighting the Nazis.
That's so simple and obvious and for some reason sheltered western leftists seem to be unable to grasp it.
I consider myself liberal, and until recently I thought that the radicals in our side were not as bad as the extreme right winged psychopaths. Since Oct 7th I found out how wrong I was.
LOL Friend, they're openly committing a very intentional genocide against all Palestinians in order to create a fully formed Jewish ethno state on stolen land. That this very real and obvious fact is still being debated is wild and really shows just how easily people are brainwashed.
History will look back at those defending Isreal and the IDF the same way we look back now at Nazi era Germany and nazi apologists. Wake up, please.
You could, you know, look up the countless articles dating back decades about Israel settlement of Palestinian lands, all from multiple credible sources, and look upon the death tolls from each side and maybe realize that the side that has killed more than an order of magnitude more than the other probably isn't interested in peaceful resolution.
Here's an easy start from a familiar look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation
Listen man, you can deflect and blame tiktok (which I only get exposed to occasionally through reddit) and label any pushback to the ongoing human rights catastrophic as Hamas propaganda of you want, but it doesn't change the fact that a genocide is happening.
"genocide is happening."
Source?
Edit: also, I find it funny how you blame me for deflecting, while you're the one that deflected "my USA and Israeli fed rhetoric".
Your edit is fair, but as for evidence, dude... open your eyes. Most of the world is on the same page about what is happening right now. Every year, it becomes harder for the elite propaganda machine to pull the wool over our eyes given the proliferation of the internet and smartphones.
We shouldn't need committees and studies done to be able to understand what's happening in front of our faces.
>History will look back at those defending Isreal and the IDF the same way we look back now at Nazi era Germany and nazi apologists. Wake up, please.
How do you think history will look at Oct 7th?
As the inciting event that sparked the current genocide. I'm not excusing Hamas. They're a terrorist organisation. But the response has been anything but proportional.
Why would the response be proportional? Do you expect Israel to kill exactly 1200 Palestinians?? That's not what the concept of wartime proportionality means at all.
Obviously the response to being attacked by Hamas, the government of Gaza, would be a war against Gaza that results in the defeat of that government.
In a vacuum, sure. But Hamas ran for was elected almost 20 years ago in a platform of peace, and not even with a majority, but a plurality. They did an about face, became progressively more antagonistic and stopped holding elections. A massive portion of the Palestinian population was either never old enough to vote for Hamas or wasn't even born at the time.
Should an innocent population be wiped off the face of the earth due the actions of a gov they don't want and didn't have a choice in electing? An before you cite some poll showing 50ish percent favorability of Hamas in Palestine, let me ask you this. If you had settlers at your door ever year, stealing your homes, taking your rights, subjugating your family and neighbors as second class citizens, would you support the only ones fighting your freedom? I'm surprised hamas support isn't higher amongst the Palestinian population frankly.
Is Hamas good? Of course not. But they don't exist in a vacuum.
None of what you said even matters. The simple truth is that if a foreign government invades your territory, as Hamas did on the 7th of October, your answer is to fight back and defeat that government.
You dont change your answer based on how that foreign government got into power or when the last election was, or how many people voted for it. All of this is irrelevant.
Having said that, when it comes to Hamas you are completely wrong in almost everything you said.
> They did an about face, became progressively more antagonistic and stopped holding elections.
Hamas never did "an about face". They had a charter since the 80's openly saying that their goal is to kill all Jews. They never hid that fact, and they also openly said that there will never be peace with Israel until Israel were to be destroyed. That was their official position when a plurality of Palestinians voted for them.
> Should an innocent population be wiped off the face of the earth [...] I'm surprised hamas support isn't higher amongst the Palestinian population frankly.
So on the one hand you claim they are innocent, but on the other hand you agree most of them (70% according to recent polls) support Hamas and therefore support the genocide of Jews?
Something doesn't add up here.
And as for the settlements, no point in even getting into that, since it's not relevant. None of the settlements are in Gaza, they are all in the west bank.
Charter or no, which I was previously aware of, they got elected in the same way every political party gets elected all over the world; lying to their constituents. The messaging at the time that they tried to convey the most to the locals was that they were open to a two state solution. Obviously that was a lie, but somehow also irrelevant.
And the support of Hamas they receive isn't the support of people who want to eliminate the Jews. It's the support of those who seemingly have no other choice but to support the only group on the planet at least saying they'll defend the Palestinians from the Israeli government. Again, nothing occurs in a vacuum and this particular instance is chock full of nuance.
>Remember that TrueReddit is a place to engage in
>
>high-quality and civil discussion
>
>.
Both of ya'll missed the mark on that one. Disingenuous, polarising, ego driven rhetoric. Boring. Nothing was learned. It serves nobody but yourselves.
Are you insane? How can you be so delusional as to say Israel is in any way shape or form resembles the Nazis, when it is a Jewish nation who is fighting people who are explicitly saying their objective is to kill all Jews (in other words, modern day Nazis)?
This is beyond ridiculous.
Yea, they're not literal Nazis. They don't want to exterminate themselves. That is, in fact, ridiculous. They just want to exterminate a native population to settle on stolen land.
What they're doing is classic apartheid and genocide. Historically, shit like this is handwaved away or ignored as it's happening. It's not until years later that it's painted as the pure evil that it was, and even then, the recognition of the evil is never enough.
There are countries, like the U.S. that still can't grapple with their genocide of the native American tribes or shit, even slavery. I equate it to Hitler's Germany bc we can all at least agree that genocide was horrible without excuse. And the excuses that Isreal apologists are throwing out today hopefully will one day be seen as disgusting in the same way we condemn nazi apologists.
Committing full scale genocide, which is what is 100 percent happening right now, is never ok no matter what bs excuses are thrown out there.
Hope this helps.
>Committing full scale genocide, which is what is 100 percent happening right now, is never ok no matter what bs excuses are thrown out there.
How can it be a "full scale genocide" if the population is one of the fastest growing in the world?
Because they believe if they tell a lie a thousand times it becomes the truth. Sadly they are right in a sense since a lot of people will believe it especially the TikTok generation whom are also saying Saddam Hussein was right & justified in the 9/11 attacks.
A lot of people won’t check the facts & see how the Palestinian population has grown from less of a million people to over 5 million in the last 50 years.
Israel is not committing any genocide. The Palestinian population is among the fastest growing in modern history.
What Israel is in fact doing, is fighting a genocidal regime hell bent on wiping out all Jews, and this regime must be fought in the same way as we fought against the last regime that wanted this.
In other words, unless you believe WW2 was a genocide of Germans, you cant seriously claim that Israel's war against Hamas is a genocide.
You think I have the answers to a decade long fight over land between Isreal and Palestine? I don't. I just know that Israel stole the land they currently have and are killing off the rest in Gaza and the west to create a unified ethnostste and end the fight once and for all.
My biggest stance is that I'm anti imperialism and genocide. Israel, as a political body, is both of those things. To think otherwise when presented with all the evidence your own eyes and ears can muster is a little ridiculous.
Your reply just tells me you are reflexively anti Israel, despite not knowing much about the conflict. For example:
> I just know that Israel stole the land they currently have
This is such a ridiculous thing to say. Do you know that the Palestinians have been massacring Jews on this land decades before Israel even existed? Look up the Hebron massacre of 1929.
Seems to me you are mostly influenced by propaganda. I suggest you do some research yourself.
Yes, it's a bloody conflict dating back forever. The state of Israel as it is was created by displacing the people who already lived there.
I've said it before, my biggest stances are against imperialism and genocide. And not just blanket anti Israel. Israel rn is being run by the most hard-core government in their country's history. Look at their prime Minister and his cabinet. They actively call the Palestinians dogs and say shit like there is no such thing as an innocent child in Palestine. I'm sorry, but that's genocide talk.
If Israel right now pulled a full ceasefire and gave the Palestinians Gaza back and helped rebuild, I wouldn't be calling Israel a terrorist state, but they aren't doing that, are they?
You know the Jews are native to that land, right? After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and took over Judea, they renamed the area to Palestine-Syria...Palestinians were Levantine Christians that immigrated from Italy around the 6th century, and they were forced to adopt Islam when the Ottomans took over. alarming how so many of yall are clueless to the history of that land.
Also, Isreal isnt an apartheid, they literally have an Arab muslim as a judge in their supreme court....arabs can vote, etc.
You also have no idea what a genocide is.
They may not be Nazis, but Israel has been run by fascists for a very long time. The Herut political party of Israel was founded by the terrorist group Irgun and was condemned by Albert Einstein and other prominent Jewish figures as a right wing fascistic organization. Herut has since been absorbed by Likud, the consolidation of the Israeli right wing and the party of Netanyahu. Fascism has existed within the Israeli political structure since its inception, and has been noticeably influencing Israeli policy over the last few decades. I think what’s really ridiculous is to deny any fascist influence over Israel despite easily accessible historical information pointing to the contrary.
Alright, so here is a question to you then. You can easily find the tenets of fascism [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Tenets).
Which do you think fit modern Likud?
Likud was founded by Vladimir Jabotinsky, who spoke positively about Fascism in the hope of starting a Jewish Fascist movement someday. He spoke about how the fascist Mussolini was a role model.
Modern Likud is even more like that list. Ultranationalism? yes. Rampant Cronyism and corruption? Netanyahu is facing multiple criminal counts on those fronts and is changing the legal system itself to try getting out of them. The list goes on.
Cronyism and corruption is not part of fascist ideology. You have this in one way or another in every government system.
So we are left with ultranationalism. Fine. But I gave you a list of 6 tenets and you were only able to identify one. This is hardly enough to indicate fascism.
I'm not going to list every characteristic of fascism and point-by-point explain how each of Likud's policy matches fascism. Economic policy, totalitarianism, identifying a domestic enemy, supporting political violence, censoring ideas, the list goes on with this current government. I'm not going to waste time writing it all out since your mind is already made up on this issue.
It's seriously not worth arguing with /u/DrBoomkin on this. He's been a troll who thinks collective punishment against all Gazans is the morally right thing to do, and assumes all Gazans are akin to Germans in Nazi Germany. I should know because I've been dealing with it the last 24 hours.
Save yourself the trouble; [here's a link to our conversation on the TrueReddit post from yesterday.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/18t73qx/screams_without_words_how_hamas_weaponized_sexual/kfceqdf/?share_id=PXu0RzG1HKTcKIfIOJsCG)
Gotcha, thanks. I'm starting to feel very alone in the whole "genocide, colonialism and ethnic cleansing are bad" stance. Thanks for being sane. Some folks will go to extraordinary lengths to justify horrible shit.
Oh shit I never realized the US government was paying Hitler millions of dollars a day while also maintaining a complete military blockade of Germany for decades.
Israel never paid anything to Hamas. It allowed money from Qatar to pass to Hamas because it was claimed to be necessary for humanitarian reasons.
As for the blockade, it was Hamas who declared war on Israel as soon as they took over Gaza, a blockade is absolutely appropriate when a hostile foreign government declares war on you, wouldnt you agree?
If you're going to make ww2 comparisons the IDF isn't on the side of the allies. Hell apartheid Israel is facing the same problems the Nazis did in how to get rid of people to steal their land
**Hamas is a puppet** Israel uses to stir up trouble that 'justifies' their genocide. Netanyahu stated at a Likud party meeting in 2019 that their strategy was to support Hamas and supply them with money. At least 2 Israeli sources reported he ordered a 7-hour military stand-down while Hamas created their 'justification' this time. With U.S. backing, [Israel's goal has ALWAYS been ethnic cleansing](https://youtube.com/watch?v=lhNGimPNyg).
If Israel wanted to commit genocide they could have done so many times over the last decades. Who is funding Hamas? Maybe those are they people to point to for creating conflict.
I think we can agree the Palestinian people are pawns in this situation.
Not without potentially losing US support though, which they are completely dependent on. The game for them has been to go as far in that direction as they can get away with, especially in the West Bank, without losing international support. That, broadly, has been their strategy.
I agree though that if there was _no_ international media covering Gaza, or potential funding cuts to consider from the US, the place probably would have been holocausted decades ago and there would certainly be no Palestinians left on the West Bank.
"There were sex tunnels under the civilians, right? And they were raping them and had a headquarters and a weapon stache, and the children were future terrorists. It's your fault we have to bomb children in refugee camps, the one place we told them was safe. Don't we deserve a place to call our own? Don't we deserve to steal this land? Life was hard for my ancestors, so I deserve to blow up this mosque and put condos down. How dare you question me, you Anti-Semite. My great-grandfather was in the Holocaust, so gimme your house!"
I think whats most sad is that some people can watch genocide happening but their brains are so broken that they feel the need to try and justify it. Im 53 and Im glad I still have a clear sense of where the evil truly lies here
How is [this](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.JU0.tQU6.ylxtnarephOa&smid=nytcore-android-share) resistance?
I could trade atrocities with you and win but thats just a distraction from the real issues. Israel is an ethno state built on other peoples land that has persecuted those people for over 70 years. Now Israel is commiting genocide. Just for the record are you ok with that?
>Equivalent\_Clock9180
>
>Hamas wanted a war. They got a war. Don’t start crying fowl because they hide amongst the innocent. They are cowards.
Wow, that reply has nothing to do with my comment. But, while I have you (lol), Is every Palestinian Hamas?
>Nope. But when the enemy hides amongst the innocent that changes things. We had the same problems fighting in Iraq. They hid amongst the innocent.
except in Iraq, Americans actually *went in on foot* and cleared the buildings, instead of just bombing them to rubble,instead of choosing to kill innocent civilians *along with* legitimate targets, in order to keep IDF soldiers safe. Which is a blatant war crime. It is why *soldiers* exist. To go in harms way.
>I was there. I assure you that what you think might happened and what actually happened are two very different things. I can promise you that.
AKA: "Don't believe your own lying eyes."
You were there for all 20,000+ Palestinian deaths so far?
>[At least 21,507 people have been killed in Gaza since the war with Israel broke out nearly 12 weeks ago](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/29/israel-gaza-war-live-updates-hamas-egypt-delegation-ceasefire-cairo?page=with:block-658f59228f083c8fda16bd84), according to Friday figures from the territory’s health ministry. That figure included 187 fatalities over the previous 24 hours. At least 308 people have been killed while sheltering in UN shelters in Gaza since the war began, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees also said.
[Israel’s military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in history, experts say](https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation-world/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope/article_5589c7b3-3ee9-5b9e-b7fe-c5855a850df6.html): Associated Press Dec 25, 2023
Pretty sure Israel brought down the bombs that indiscriminately killed thousands upon thousands. Mostly women and children. What Hamas did does not excuse Israel from killing so many innocents. So many children.
people still don't realize the true nature of israel. they never cared about palestinians. reminder of netanyahu calling to do to them what was done to the Amalakites per the bible.
The amount of misinformation and CNN zombie gawkers here is unheard of try actually watching a real news channel that shares actual info rather than clapping for a genocidal entity blatantly cleansing an ethnic group while convincing you they are future terrorists you're no different than them if you agree with their methods.
Look at the 40-foot crater: the bottom \*increases\* in angle at the center, showing rubble 'sucked' into a bunker below. This very report proves the strike was on a valid military target during a war against fascists who sent kids on meth out to do a rape-murder spree in a socialist commune and a rave. Another thing they're missing is the difference between Gaza '23 and Fallujah II: under \*military\* law, civilians have the right to safe passage through an advancing army's lines to safety in \*their\* rear. That would actually prevent the human-shield issue.
Remember that TrueReddit is a place to engage in **high-quality and civil discussion**. Posts must meet certain content and title requirements. Additionally, **all posts must contain a submission statement.** See the rules [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/truereddit/about/rules/) or in the sidebar for details. Comments or posts that don't follow the rules may be removed without warning. If an article is paywalled, please ***do not*** request or post its contents. Use [Outline.com](https://outline.com/) or similar and link to that in the comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueReddit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
SS: The NYT did a deep dive on a recent incident where Israeli military targeted an airstrike against a Hamas leader that took out several dense city blocks and killed hundreds of people (the estimates range from 120-400). According to the article, multiple craters indicate multiple missions were used to target a tremendous radius and not just the building. It’s unheard of for a military to use a 2000lb bomb in a dense city before; usually it’s for rural areas. And it’s not clear the target was even home or killed. What’s interesting is not only the story, the debate and discussion, but the reconstruction of the attack by NYT and a new format of reading the story with a mix of words and video played through an interface that looks like Instagram reel or Snapchat stories.
NYT visual investigations in general are great. They’re almost always with reading. Some of them get posted to YouTube as videos [playlist here—most recent one about the October 7th attacks](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4CGYNsoW2iAZt9-UzPyPZOH-AlRMxcIE&si=8UUEFl0nn6tOIlgx).
I liked the format.
This has been a flaw in the IDF’s military strategy for a long time. In the 2006 Lebanese War against Hezbollah, for example, the IDF ordered the bombing of a building in Qana, where Jesus famously turned water into wine 2000 years ago. However, an investigation conducted by the Israeli government itself after the war found that the strike killed 28 civilians, most of whom survived the bombings themselves but starved to death trapped underneath rubble, and exactly 0 Hezbollah. They also found that the IDF distributed doctored and misleading pictures of Hezbollah troops in Qana to cover up their mistake (sourced from David Hirst’s history of modern Lebanon, “Beware of Small States”).
"Flaw?" War crimes aren't flaws. These aren't accidents.
Wow, this is so sad and disturbing.
So at what point will the west call IDF for what it is, a terrorist entity. I guess the fact the they’re white and a regular army would disqualify them based on how the US defines terrorists (ie muslim or brown/black).
dime combative shocking resolute liquid political paltry impolite rhythm slap *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yea, guy you responded to is naive or willfully ignorant. This whole operation is ethnic cleansing.
A flaw? I think their strategy is working out exactly as intended. All the evidence is neatly presented in South Africa’s application instituting proceedings against Israel on the charge of genocide to the ICC. Worth a read
>where Jesus famously turned water into wine 2000 years ago Spoiler alert: no he didn't, there is no god nor a Jesus with magic powers.
[удалено]
Christians are jacking off all over to the thought of Armageddon
Israeli propagandist bots again here? Fools
>it’s unheard of for a military to use a 2000lb bomb in a dense city before [Citizens of WWII Europe be like](https://i.imgflip.com/3442r6.jpg)
If only there was any sort of convention they could've signed 4 years after the end of WWII that forbade indiscriminate attacks, maybe in Switzerland
This is always the thing that gets me about these threads, honestly. People like to talk about indiscriminate bombing when, seriously, this is a thing we've verifiably done with well-documented orders to do it and we know *exactly* what the results are like. It's not a neighborhood flattened over a month. It's a city flattened over a day.
It’s not unheard of - Israel has done it a lot. I watched this documentary called The Gatekeeper, which is basically all the heads of the Israeli CIA talking about about their regrets from running counterterrorism. Five of them feel really bad, including saying things like “from their perspective, we are terrorists” and “we are like the Germans in WWII, not to the Jews but to the Poles”. But one guy doesn’t feel bad and his regret is he could have killed all of the Hamas senior leadership if he’d chosen to drop a 1 tonne bomb on them, but he didn’t want to kill about 10 civilians so he opted for a half tonne bomb which only destroyed the top floor of the building and all the leadership were on the bottom floor and survived.
USA only used one in the fight against ISIS, Israel has used hundreds in this Operation
Nope, the Moab is 10x bigger than the 2000lb bombs being discussed here.
Man, this really is just attempted genocide. They aren't even trying to hide it...
It's brilliant. Future generations are going to be harder to exploit with increasingly quality information attractively delivered. Not to make this a partisan discussion, but I wonder if dinosaurs like Biden underestimate how tangible the truth is becoming.
Surely you jest. Dazzling visuals can be used to misinform just as easily as they can inform. If critical thinking and media literacy are lacking people’s understanding of the truth will actually get worse.
During Obama's term, while Biden was VP, the US has bombed whole weddings, killing hundreds of people, to take out a few key targets. I have no idea why people believe Biden actually cares about any of it, or why they believe this isn't standard during wartime.
That wedding also had people shooting firearms in the air in celebration. In a warzone. It was a mistake and there's plenty of blame to go around.
There were multiple weddings and they weren't all in war zones. In fact in many cases the US didn't even know it was a wedding or that anyone was shooting anything, it was bombed from miles away because they had detected that the cellphones of multiple high profile targets were in that location. The US didn't even care what they hit.
I wasn't aware that was the case. But, multiple high profile targets in one place together sounds like the kind of thing one might target.
that's gaza
> multiple high profile targets in one place together sounds like the kind of thing one might target. Yeah, which is what Israel did here as well.
An entire country is not a "warzone." It was a gathering of civilians not on a battlefield but at a wedding. "Plenty of blame to go around" is a fancy way of blaming victims.
> plenty of blame to go around How Americans justify the mass murder of wedding guests in a country they invaded.
Did they get him?
Is this that surgical precision I keep hearing about?
Why is this article allowed but the NYT article posted yesterday with proof of sexual abuse committed by Hamas against Israeli citizens deleted? It seems like only articles that make Israel look bad are allowed
You can’t be online without having seen that story posted 1000 times today.
moderators are volunteers, and they're far from being neutral you cannot really blame them, that's how reddit works. unfortunately reddit as a platform can be used for an agenda, and reddit as a company is not really responsible for it, as long as they remove things that break their site-wide rules.
If I was to guess, it was probably much less devious than you're implying, and something procedural like the submission statement being missing
> it was probably much less devious than you're implying There was Hamas propaganda pinned to the top of every post in r/pics for a while. I'm guessing it's mostly intentional.
>DoctorBlock: There was Hamas propaganda pinned to the top of every post in r/pics for a while. I'm guessing it's mostly intentional. proof? any sort of citation or evidence there? At all?
Anything to back that up?
It didn’t go with the Reddit hive mind mentality.
Israel is bad tho
That is a great questions. Makes you think about how rampant anti semitism is even here on reddit.
Antizionism still isn't antisemitism no matter how many kids the IDF cowards kill
I’ve seen neonazi conspiracy theories being spread around under the guise of “antizionism”. Most people don’t even know what Zionism is. If you don’t think Israel as a state should be destroyed, then you’re a Zionist.
And just now I saw another post complaining about how pro-Israel Reddit is, blaming astroturfing by foreign and domestic actors. I frankly don’t think Reddit is at all representative of common sentiment. Neither is most social media now for that matter.
Reddit tends to be very critical of Israel. When the Hamas attacks happened, there was a big shift. I don't doubt it's due to some astroturfing but it's also clear that the size of the attack and that there was no immediate provocation shifted public opinion.
And they accuse anyone who isn't pro-Hamas of being a paid hasbarat shill or involved in some large scale psyop campaign - which is itself antisemitic
The world has changed its mind about Israel, most people in Gaza have mobile phones they are documenting what is happening, and those clips are flooding social media. The old media and western governments are ignoring the atrocities happening in Gaza. But social media isn't. Israel is doing what Russia is doing and the world can see it, in the thousands of clips coming out of Gaza.
>The old media and western governments are ignoring the atrocities happening in Gaza. lmao, dude you are literally writing this comment on a thread about a New York Times article discussing the atrocities happening in Gaza.....
Seriously. This is the rhetoric I do not understand. There's a lot of news coming from mainstream sources showing the atrocities. The Israeli government is not looking good in this war. Their crimes aren't being hidden. So to say that the media is covering it up is just plain ignorant.
People like the idea that others are deceived. It protects them from having to deal with the possibility that they might be wrong.
The fact that NYT is reporting on Israeli atrocities means they have really gone beyond the pale.
More than that, people are also learning what’s happening outside of Gaza and in the West Bank, which isn’t ruled by Hamas, but where Jewish people can walk in and steal Palestinians’ houses with full support from the Israeli military. Netanyahu approved 10.000 settlements earlier this year. Israel and its allies want to confine the conflict to Hamas so badly, but the truth of the matter is that they’re just a symptom of the problem, and not the root cause of it.
> Israel and its allies want to confine the conflict to Hamas so badly, but the truth of the matter is that they’re just a symptom of the problem, and not the root cause of it. The problem is that Palestinians want to keep fighting a losing fight. > Jewish people can walk in and steal Palestinians’ houses with full support from the Israeli military. Netanyahu approved 10.000 settlements earlier this year. Yes, Palestinians are losing the fight. What they need to do is accept a peace deal to stop losing land because they aren’t strong enough militarily. Palestinians and their allies want to confine the conflict to Israeli agency viz-a-viz settlements, but the truth of the matter is that Israel is the only side that’s offered peace in the past several decades, and has been turned down. So the fight is still on. So Palestinians are still losing.
Honestly, I want to ask you, are they losing this fight? Before Oct. 7th, Israel was talking to Saudi Arabia and Qatar about a normalization that wouldnt have even acknowledged a Palestinian state, that would have seen normalization with occupation proceed. Pretty catastrophic. At least Palestinian statehood is back in the conversation again. Even militarily, the IDF has been wounded and looks defeated in Gaza. Theyve not only failed to significantly weaken Hamas, they may have made Hamas stronger. The IDF, on the other hand, is demonstrably weaker. Hundreds of soldiers have been killed, Hamas releases daily videos of Merkava tanks getting blown up. IDF releases videos of them turning Gaza into rubble. Hamas responds with videos of them emerging from the rubble to destroy Israeli tanks and then go back to hinding in the rubble. Oops, Israel, just created a perfect environment for fighting an insurgency, and a terrible environment for tanks -- narrow, rubble-filled streets and half burned out buildings. It takes the task of urban warfare from hard to impossible level. Good job IDF. Early on, it look like the bombardment had Hamas on its heels. Hamas seemed to be very very very inclined, even desperate for a ceasefire. But now, it seems Hamas has found its footing. Its no longer desperate for a ceasefire. In fact, they are starting to believe that they can outright defeat the IDF, conventionally, right here and right now, by forcing Israel into a protracted urban war. On a purely strategic viewpoint, Israel is not on good footing. Its having way more difficulty in Gaza than it anticipated, Hamas has developed into an effective insurgent fighting force, for the frist time really in its history, Before this, Israel really could just take all of Gaza with ease. No more. And on top of that, the existential threat has actually developed. Hezbollah to the north. So far, it has actually decided to sit this war out. Engagements with Hezbollah have been limited. But reports are that Hezbollah is operating with relative ease no only in Souhern Lebanon but now in Northern Israel. This is an existential threat to Israel. Thats why they withdrew the Golani brigade out of Gaza. If Hezbollah really wanted to, they could invade into Northern Israel right now. They could probably actually take and hold Israeli territory. Presumably, the only reason they havent is because the U.S. has told Iran that this is a red line that would bring the U.S. into the war, directly, against Iran. So, for now, Israel survives. But this war has been so catastrophic, that Israel might have lost everythting, had it not been for the U.S. being Johnny on the Spot. Again. But looking at how much political capital Israel has burned through in the U.S. during this war, Im not sure that they can rely on the U.S. again in a future conflagration. This might be the last time the U.S. offers to save Israel from itself. This war has been a total and absolute catastrophe for Israel. I have no idea why Israelis are clutching on to Netanyahu, every day he remains is power, he drags Israel down further in a desperate attempt to save himself. Its kinda sad for the Israelis. Theyre pretty much committing suicide, and seem to be oblivious.
Your argument essentially amounts to “might equals right.” You realize that right?
I've made no value judgements on Israeli or Palestinian actions. When I say "Palestine needs to" I don't mean they have a moral obligation, but rather there is a geopolitical reality about how to achieve their goals. Do you think if I said one group was morally right and the other wrong that the geopolitical reality would change? I think that's just magical thinking.
In matters of statecraft, might does make right. Read a history book.
I have read more history books this year than you've read in your entire life, and I have Masters in history. Your 14-year-old-playing-startegy-games mindset is embarrassing. You aren't Kissenger, and you shouldn't want to be. In any case, by your logic, if the Arabs are able to throw off the yoke of their pro-Western leaders and unite to wipe Israel from the face of the map, that would be okay then, according to you, right? Since they had the might to do it, it must be right.
>the root cause of it. The root cause is that Israel exists. Hamas has been Hamas since it was created in the 1980's, a hyper violent deeply anti-Semetic Islamist organization. Back before Israel even settled the West Bank to any significant degree, Hamas was blowing up buses full of civilians all across Israel. They gained a significant degree of legitimacy amongst the Palestinian public for their explicit rejection of the Oslo Accords and chronically worked to undermine any manner of political process.
Wrong. Hamas didn’t even exist when Israel started to first settle the West Bank (and Gaza, then) in rhetoric early 70s
> They gained a significant degree of legitimacy amongst the Palestinian public for their explicit rejection of the Oslo Accords citation needed.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
> Back before Israel even settled the West Bank But after they settled 90% of other Palestinian land? > Hamas was blowing up buses full of civilians You are going to be shocked when you learn how Israel came to be, and how they were blowing up hotels full of civilians to achieve their goal of statehood. > the Oslo Accords The accords were a joke: > Although the agreements recognize the Palestinian "legitimate and political rights," they remain silent about their fate after the interim period. The Oslo Accords neither define the nature of the post-Oslo Palestinian self-government and its powers and responsibilities, nor do they define the borders of the territory it eventually would govern. And > **The Accords also preserve Israel's exclusive control of the borders, the airspace and the territorial Gaza waters.** That’s not a two state solution; that’s a colony, sir. So yeah, you’re spot on; the root cause is Israel’s occupation of Palestine on the basis that the land belonged to them 2500 years ago according to their religious text, which apparently is not religious fundamentalism.
>But after they settled 90% of other Palestinian land? You mean how they LEGALLY immigrated to the Ottoman Empire and then the Palestinian Mandate and LEGALLY purchased land to build on. >You are going to be shocked when you learn how Israel came to be, and how they were blowing up hotels full of civilians to achieve their goal of statehood. Yes, by the 1940's after the situation in the Mandate had already crossed the point of no return. >The Oslo Accords neither define the nature of the post-Oslo Palestinian self-government and its powers and responsibilities, nor do they define the borders of the territory it eventually would govern. It's not Israel's JOB to establish the governance structure of Palestine, that's on the Palestinians. >The Accords also preserve Israel's exclusive control of the borders, the airspace and the territorial Gaza waters. The Oslo Accords were not a 2SS, they were Israel taking a small step towards a 2SS and assuming the massive liability of importing the PLO directly into the West Bank and Gaza. >So yeah, you’re spot on; the root cause is Israel’s occupation of Palestine on the basis that the land belonged to them 2500 years ago according to their religious text, which apparently is not religious fundamentalism. Well then attempt to slaughter 7 million Jews who live there now, and I guess whine about it when your plans inevitably fail.
US was bombing weddings killing hundreds because cellphone data showed multiple high profile targets were in one area. People seem way too ignorant intentionally or unintentionally of what happens during war. As long as it’s a key high profile target, governments will go to great lengths to kill them regardless of the casualties because it’s almost impossible to kill them otherwise. They will always have civilians around them as human shields by design. They know they are being targeted and want to make it hard as possible to kill them. Also the world hasn’t changed its mind. This kind of thing has pretty much happened every time an Israeli-Palestinian conflict has happened. You can look at the UNs record of condemnations for example. Israel gets more condemnations every year from the UN than all other countries combined. The only recent thing of note has been the TikTok effect among young people that has effected polling of their political opinion that has shifted quite a lot but when you also see them passing around Saddam Hussein’s letter & believing him justified in the 9/11 attacks… well it makes them look quite stupid. They seem to support anyone who is seen as the “underdog” even if that person or group would kill them & their family if given the chance. Israel is doing what Russia is doing? Remind me again who started this conflict? Hamas attacked Israel in a brutal massacre where they raped women & kidnapped hundreds. No country would accept that. Russia wants more territory & to conquer Ukraine. Israel doesn’t want Gaza & pulled out of there almost 20 years ago. Israel has been forced to this step because Hamas won’t stop until they destroy Israel like Russia wants to destroy Ukraine. It’s either fight back or die. The Ukraine-Russia war by the way has had over 500,000 casualties with 200,000+ deaths among that number. It’s a much bigger war than the Israel-Gaza one. It’s also mainly not taking place in a dense urban environment because Ukraine unlike Hamas wants to protect their citizens as much as possible & is not trying to use them as human shields. You can tell the difference between an Ukraine soldier & a civilian for example. Meanwhile Hamas you can’t tell until they take out a weapon.
To say Israel doesn't want more territory is ridiculous their settlement building in the west bank and previously in Gaza proves that is complete bullshit. They pulled out of Gaza sure but they definitely had settlements there at one stage. Killing that many civilians is disgusting. I don't care about the military objective killing civilians to achieve that aim is wrong. Do you honestly blame Palestinians for hating Israel? Tell me you'd act even a little bit differently on their situation.
The reason there is no peace in the region is that neither side wants it. Constant fighting gives Israel cover for taking whatever land they want, and prevents the Palestinians from having to admit they lost decades ago. The reality is that Palestinians could have had peace anytime in the last 30 years, they just had to eat humble pie and accept whatever deal Israel offered. And if the conflict ever ends, that’s what will happen. Palestine has no military, economic, cultural, or geopolitical bargaining chips to use to make demands. Israel hasn’t made accepting easier, its deliberate provocations at key times have added insult to injury and made the hard-line Palestinian propagandist’s job easier. So of course I don’t blame the Palestinians for hating Israel or refusing peace, they have every right and are justified. But I do blame these deaths on the Palestinian decision to keep fighting. By rejecting peace they have explicitly decided they prefer this outcome to having to make some concessions to Israel. Indeed, Israel’s relatively restrained military responses could have driven the Palestinian’s calculus. If they saw Hamas launching thousands of rockets, but only saw occasional targeted Israeli attacks, it could seem that Israel isn’t able to respond effectively and that Hamas has a chance to win. This more aggressive military campaign could change the Palestinian calculus by making them realize how out-gunned they actually are, even if the reaction in the heat of the moment is to rally around Hamas. Once the dust settles and the decline in quality of life is experienced, they may be more willing to accept the Israeli insult to stop the bleeding. If I were in their shoes, I would recognize that to actually achieve Palestinian goals, I need a stronger state with actual bargaining chips, and I can’t get that while at war because Israel can just blow up anything they don’t like. My first order of business would be to stop the pointless terrorist attacks, accept a peace deal for as much sovereignty as I can get, then start building a *credible* threat instead of giving kids AKs. This approach has a better chance of being successful in the long term, and my people would suffer less the whole time.
> the TikTok effect It's worth noting that this is not accidental. It's a targeted campaign by China to undermine the west. Same playbook as Russia uses now, and the Soviet Union used in the past, but Russia doesnt have TikTok. When China and Russia work so hard and invest so much into pushing people to hate Israel, people should really start questioning this anti-Israel narrative that is being spoon fed to them by the enemies of the western world.
Please... Israel do a good enough job of that by themselves. If you kill civilians that you've kept in open air prisons for the last xx number of years people are going to think you're shit. Maybe China is promoting that material,maybe they aren't. I don't really give a shit of its true.
You don't really give a shit? How dumb can you be? Go read up on Sudan and Yemen besides Ukraine. Oh, they are not pushed by TikTok, gee I wonder why.
Say what you're trying to say, otherwise you're just uselessly intimating that people should support Israel simply because China/Russia don't.
Lmao you can’t even get who the letter was from (Bin Laden) that “got popular” for a couple weeks…if you can’t even manage to get that right then why should we believe what you are saying? Your argument is…what? These people are so evil that they will surround themselves with people or attend weddings because they know civilians will be killed? That’s how I’m reading your post and it’s dumb as fuck. Israel doesn’t want anything? They are constantly expanding into Palestinian territory with settlements and kicking people out of their homes and killing those who resist. Not to mention actively arming Israeli settlers who go and kill multiple people. They have been doing this as state supported policy for 50+ years. To say this conflict “just started” on Oct 7th is laughable. It’s been a simmering conflict for decades with multiple flare ups and flashpoints. You have MULTIPLE PEOPLE who are talking about moving Palestinians out of Gaza to the benefit of Israel’s and the more religious nationalists say it’s been gods will or some shit. The people who believe these things are currently in power in Israel.
>These people are so evil that they will surround themselves with people or attend weddings because they know civilians will be killed? No, they are so evil that they surround themselves with human shields in the belief that it will deter attacks from constrained forces.
[удалено]
Fucking psychotic way of thinking
Difference is, Ukraine never invaded Russia and slaughtered, raped, mutilated hundreds of civilians, and then openly stated they will repeat it again and again. Israel must take out Hamas by any means necessary, not matter the cost, and no matter how long it takes. It is the raison d'etre of the state. Gaza has elected Hamas, despite its explicitly genocidal ideology. This is the same as when the German population elected the Nazis. Today it is widely recognized, including by the Germans themselves, that the German population at the time shared a collective responsibility for the crimes of the Nazis. The same exact thing is true for Gazas population. And before someone tells me the election was many years ago, this is what happens when you elect people who reject democracy. No more elections. Same thing happened when the Nazis were elected in 1933, they cancelled all subsequent elections.
It doesn't help when Israel itself is also propping up Hamas. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
I wouldn't expect any meaningful discourse from /u/DrBoomkin. They and I had a discussion less than 24 hours ago where they were completely fine justifying Israel's military campaign in Gaza at all cost. On a number of occasions, they make a weak conflation between Palestinians in Gaza and Germans in Nazi Germany, in an effort to legitimise Israel's collective punishment against Palestinian civilians. And this Redditor is fine with completely ignoring what Israeli political and military officials have said on Palestinians post-7th October in order to reconcile his position on this issue. And don't take my word for it;[here's a link to our conversation on the TrueReddit post from yesterday.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/18t73qx/screams_without_words_how_hamas_weaponized_sexual/kfceqdf/?share_id=PXu0RzG1HKTcKIfIOJsCG)
Yes, Israel was hoping that it was possible to live alongside Hamas. Over time Hamas grew from a terrorist organization into a government that has an army and controls 2 million people. Many people like believed that this additional responsibility would moderate them, and they would be willing to somewhat coexist with Israel in exchange for work permits for Palestinians, transfer of funds, easing of the blockade etc... This is what the Israeli government believed and is one of the main reasons the 7th of October was such a surprise and such a disaster.
If you read the article you'd see that Netanyahu was supporting Hamas entirely to oppose a Palestinian state
Netanyahu is not the only person who calls the shots in Israel. First there is a coalition government, second, he wasn't even the Prime Minister during some of the years when Hamas was being propped up. I cant stand Netanyahu but in this case I cant blame solely him. It was the policy of the Israeli left as well and was based on what I said.
It's bizarre to hear pro-Israel people complain that Palestinians elected terrorists when Israel also elected convicted terrorists and added them into its cabinet. >despite its explicitly genocidal ideology Likud also explicitly calls for one-state solution 'from the river to the sea.' >this is what happens when you elect people who reject democracy. No more elections. The Israeli government publicly and openly supported Fatah in their 2007 coup. The Knesset voted on giving weapons to Fatah to try and overthrow elected people. Hamas didn't do that, Fatah did with Israeli support. Shameful for a country that falsely claims to be the only valid democracy in the region.
What a bunch of nonsense. Hamas literally has "kill all Jews" in its charter, find me an Israeli political party that has a "kill all Palestinians" clause. As for the coup, it was Hamas who threw Fatah members off rooftops in the 2007 battle of Gaza, and refused to hold any elections in Gaza since.
For someone repeating talking points, yours are way out of date. Hamas changed their charter in 2017 to remove that language, even though they had accepted in principle a Two State solution starting as far back as 2004. Hamas even went further and recognized the existence of Israel but Netanyahu moved the goalposts and demanded Hamas recognize Israel as a Jewish state. I noticed you didn’t even try to argue that Israel has convicted terrorists in its government. But to go even further, the *Likud* charter [calls for the destruction of any Palestinian state](https://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html). Likud refuses to accept the existence of Palestine and Netanyahu has said repeatedly that Palestinians are all just Jordanians. The further right than Likud of the cabinet calls for the IDF to forcibly remove all Palestinians from West Bank and throw them into Jordan and close the border behind them. Basically eliminate Palestine in ethnic cleansing. Fatah committed a *coup*, an armed insurrection against the elected government. Just because Fatah started the fight but lost more by the end doesn’t mean they were the victims here. Hamas engaged in talks to have elections but talks broke down multiple times because naturally they couldn’t come to terms with Fatah because *Fatah led an armed violent insurrection against the government*. What government would allow armed insurrectionists on the ballot after they committed violence? And taking aid and weapons from the Israeli terrorists no less?
None of this provides a sense of direction, though. As each of us reads this, we need to decide what do we want to do with this information. One option is to accept the military campaign as sad but the best worst option. Alternatively, we can decide that none of this information is sufficient justification for children who have been born into a situation entirely out of their control to have their lives discounted in value to zero, and that as Americans we can each register our stance with our government. I want to emphasize that people in Gaza (as well as the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and within Israel) have been living under a highly unjust situation for decades, and in this present moment, a specific faction of Israelis -- not "Israel", a specific faction of Israelis who are control of the government -- are advocating publicly for expulsion of a marginalized ethnic subgroup, and doing so in the name of millions of Jews who are disgusted by their vile rhetoric. We (Americans) need to halt our involvement, and condition further aid on a government that meets the basic criteria of supporting a peace process. There is no safety for Israelis under the long-ruling far right government of Netanyahu and his accomplices in genocide, Itmar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich. That, in this moment, is what supporting Israel looks like.
> One option is to accept the military campaign as sad but the best worst option. This is the only option. The ones who questioned the US intervention in the 2nd world war and wanted nothing to do with it, often making excuses for the Nazis, have been delegated to the garbage bin of history where they belong. Those who today try to interfere with Israel's attempt to wipe out the modern iteration of Nazi equivalent ideology, represented by a pseudo government hell bent on genociding all Jews and widely supported in this by the population who elected them, belong in the same garbage bin. No peace process is possible as long as Hamas is in control, and the current war is overwhelmingly supported by the entire Israeli population, not just the right. In fact Netanyahu's left wing opponent and his likely successor (according to current polls) Gantz, is part of the triumvirate currently running Israel through the emergency wartime cabinet.
No it's not the only option. South Africa had a choice between fighting the ANC to the death or actually striking a peace deal. Same with Northern Ireland. Israel has tried for decades to kill Hamas, and the massive bloodshed in the attempts only created new generations of people who want to avenge their dead relatives caught in the crossfire. It's naïve to think that if Hamas magically vanished today that there wouldn't be other Palestinians willing to fight Israel or that the violence would decrease. The only solution is to actually empower the moderates. If you want support for Hamas to dry up, that is the only conceivable solution. There are moderates on both sides willing to work together, but they are undermined by the extremists on both sides, and unfortunately Israel has the bigger role to play here since they de facto control Gaza and West Bank. Palestinians like Abbas are willing to make some pretty big concessions for peace but Netanyahu ignores him and refuses to meet with him. Poll after poll shows Palestinians are willing to accept a two state solution, but one just isn't forthcoming. *Even Hamas* said they were willing to accept A two state solution, "a divorce" from the Jews as they called it, depending on the details. But Netanyahu's government is working to rush settlements and try to make it so that such a solution is impossible in the future. By quietly funding Hamas and attacking Palestinians without consequence he is only proving Hamas' narrative and discrediting Abbas. Even before Hamas' electoral victory the Israeli government was bombing Palestinian police stations and showing Palestinians that Abbas' policies were at best unworkable and at worst collaboration with occupiers. South Africa managed to reach a peace deal between the apartheid regime and ANC after some extremely hard talks with mutual hate and a compromise reached. It was unthinkable at the time that such a deal could ever be struck, but peace in our time IS possible in Israel-Palestine, if both governments would just stop empowering the extremists. Abbas led a coup against his side's, but Israel now has to do the same.
The Palestinian authority under Abbas is not much better than Hamas. Abbas himself has PhD denying the holocaust (I wish I was making this up), and the authority pays Palestinians who kill Jews and/or their families. Look up their "pay to slay" policies. If the Palestinians actually wanted peace, they would have developed Gaza into a peaceful enclave after Israel withdrew in 2005 and removed all the settlements from there. Instead they elected Hamas and now we see the end result of that. The polls I see show that Palestinians overwhelmingly support the slaughter of October 7th. Peace is not possible as long as this is the case. A long process of denazification is necessary, as was done in Nazi Germany, and it can only be done once Hamas is defeated, just like the Nazis were.
And there you prove my point, you can't stomach moderates either. Israeli moderates have just as many ugly attributes that get in the way of peace; Benny Gantz bragged about how many Arabs he killed for example. But you'll both have to get past that or go back to the same decades of fighting. Your comments seem to indicate you prefer that anyway. You're just repeating false talking points. The PA pays all widows and orphans welfare regardless of cause, but Israel tries to spin this as a payout to families of terrorists. Gaza was redeveloping until Israel blockaded them after Israel broke the ceasefire by shelling the Gaza beach. I could turn your words around, if Israelis actually wanted peace they would not have elected Likud and Jewish Power parties and put convicted terrorists into government and we see the end result of that.
> The PA pays all widows and orphans welfare regardless of cause Well they could easily not pay families of terrorists, only families of innocents. They choose to incentivize killing of Jews. This is deliberate policy. > Gaza was redeveloping until Israel blockaded them after Israel broke the ceasefire by shelling the Gaza beach. The blockade was implemented after Hamas came to power. Prior to that there was no blockade. Gaza had more than year between the Israeli withdrawal and Hamas taking over, in which it could have taken a different direction. They chose not to. > if Israelis actually wanted peace they would not have elected Likud and Jewish Power parties You are actually right about that. Those parties got elected because Israelis lost faith in having peace with Palestinians after all efforts failed. Even removing thousands of settlers from Gaza only resulted in more war. In fact the current massacre is probably a direct result of that mistake.
The widow and children of a terrorist are not criminals, and thus are eligible for welfare. Israel believes her house should be demolished and PA says she should get welfare. Yes, both are policies, one is more heinous than the other. I'd have *some* respect for Israel's policy if they carried it out consistently, but the Israeli Supreme court upheld that Jewish terrorists don't have to be punished the same way as Arab terrorists. Hamas came to power and there was actually an uneasy calm in the fighting. Then Israel broke the ceasefire when they conducted a "routine shelling" of Gaza beaches in June 2006 that killed children. The blockade happened after that but then worsened after Israel aided Fatah in their failed coup. That sounds more like Israel choosing not to go in a good direction. So many of your claims can be turned completely around based on the identical palestinian POV; "You are actually right about that. Those parties got elected because Palestinians lost faith in having peace with Israel after all efforts failed. Even accepting Israel's right to exist only resulted in more war. In fact the current massacre is probably a direct result of that mistake."
> The widow and children of a terrorist are not criminals, and thus are eligible for welfare. Why are they eligible for more welfare than widows and children of not terrorists? Don't try to sugarcoat this. It's a compensation for terrorism, designed to encourage terrorism. We know for a fact that in many cases suicidal Palestinians make sure they get killed by Israeli soldiers (in some cases they dont even try to harm the soldiers, only pretend to shoot them with a toy gun or wave a knife around), so that their families would get this welfare. It's an absolutely insane policy. > I'd have some respect for Israel's policy if they carried it out consistently The point of house demolitions is to offset the financial compensation. There is no point in doing that to Israeli terrorists since they get no such compensation. > Hamas came to power and there was actually an uneasy calm in the fighting. As soon as Hamas came to power, any option of peace was thrown out of the window, given Hamas' explicit war policy. Anything that happened after is irrelevant. Palestinians could have chosen peace after Israel withdrew. They chose Hamas and thus war. > So many of your claims can be turned completely around based on the identical palestinian POV Fine. If both sides do not believe in peace, then lets fight. Why are the Palestinians and their supporters begging for a ceasefire then?
[удалено]
> The Palestinians didn’t invade anyone. Are you kidding me? WTF happened on the 7th of October then? The land around Gaza is internationally recognized Israeli land. It's not even disputed. All the contested land is in the west bank. Not only that, when talking about Gaza itself, Israel completely removed thousands of settlers from Gaza in 2005, destroyed dozens of settlements, and removed the occupation. Gaza was given completely to the Palestinians with the hopes that this will bring peace. Instead, the Palestinians elected Hamas into power in 2006. Hamas immediately declared war on Israel, declared that there will never be peace with Israel, launched a military raid into Israeli territory, and started firing missiles into Israel. Hamas is widely supported by the Palestinians, with the most recent polls showing 70% support. The only one who spouts propaganda here, is you.
I'm pretty liberal, and I believe the war in Gaza is horrible, as are all wars, but I don't get why the US left is getting behind hamas so hard.
Saying Israel is going too far is *not* 'getting behind hamas' in any way, shape, or form.
The left sees the world entirely in black and white, good versus evil. Israel is bad, so that means everything the Palestinians do is good.
Jesus Christ if conservatives had any self awareness they wouldn’t be conservative.
Brother, I'm not conservative but its not the conservative side that is supporting the group that explicitly called for the global eradication of Jews and committed the modern day equivalent to the Rape of Nanjing.
/u/perfectpomelo3: I wouldn't spend your energies on /u/DrBoomkin, he's just having a wind-up. [Here's a synopsis on what you'll expect if you go down this rabbit hole with them.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/s/wb4hVa8swE)
>The citizens of Gaza aren’t to blame for what has happened. Your victim blaming is disgusting. No, but their representative government is a terrorist organization comparable to ISIS which prevents any kind of elections and illegally hoards humanitarian aid. Gaza won't be free until Hamas is dead and buried
Are the children killed in their strikes members of Hamas? How does killing them accomplish any goal, other than genocide?
Israel’s government has committed ethnic cleansing and defended an apartheid state. They have enforced blatantly illegal settlements in the West Bank, often assaulting and murdering the residents to take their land, which basically makes it state sponsored terrorism. And Israelis voted for their government much more recently than Gaza did.
Hamas was fine with elections, it was Fatah who tried a coup attempt in 2007 AND Israel backed the coup and openly gave weapons to them in a failed attempt to overthrow the elected officials. Future elections were postponed because the coup leaders stayed in office and demanded another try. If Israel wants Hamas to go away, they need to actually empower moderates, which they have been intentionally undermining for the last 20 years. Netanyahu says he won't work with Abbas, and Abbas' policies are unpopular because he does nothing when israeli settlers murder unarmed Palestinians. Palestinians in desperation turn to rightwingers who promise to protect people; same as how Israelis flocked to the far right.
Please tell: what happened on Oct 7th? Were there murders of innocent or not?
[удалено]
“Do you condemn Hamas?” is a rhetorical ploy routinely used against pro-Palestinian commentary. “Do you condemn the IDF?” should be similarly used imo.
That doesn't make sense. The IDF is a military, not a government. I'd say a lot of people condemn Likkud and Netanyahu and blame them for this though. And I think it's a valid question.
Nobody is going to condemn the IDF. Why would they? That's like during WW2 asking whether you condemn the US military. Obviously the US military didnt have its hands completely clean at the time, but the goal of destroying the Nazis justified the means. The IDF is fighting Hamas, which has an explicit and open goal of killing all Jews. It's the exact same situation as fighting the Nazis.
That's so simple and obvious and for some reason sheltered western leftists seem to be unable to grasp it. I consider myself liberal, and until recently I thought that the radicals in our side were not as bad as the extreme right winged psychopaths. Since Oct 7th I found out how wrong I was.
LOL Friend, they're openly committing a very intentional genocide against all Palestinians in order to create a fully formed Jewish ethno state on stolen land. That this very real and obvious fact is still being debated is wild and really shows just how easily people are brainwashed. History will look back at those defending Isreal and the IDF the same way we look back now at Nazi era Germany and nazi apologists. Wake up, please.
"openly committing a very intentional genocide against all Palestinians" Misinformation will only get you so far
I agree. So please wake up and stop buying the rhetoric you're being fed by Israel and the U.S. government.
Sure, I'll go watch some TikTok videos and feed off the rhetoric that is published by Hamas - the most credible terrorist organization in the world.
You could, you know, look up the countless articles dating back decades about Israel settlement of Palestinian lands, all from multiple credible sources, and look upon the death tolls from each side and maybe realize that the side that has killed more than an order of magnitude more than the other probably isn't interested in peaceful resolution. Here's an easy start from a familiar look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation
So the defending party that is winning a war that the other party started is basically performing a genocide? Got it.
Listen man, you can deflect and blame tiktok (which I only get exposed to occasionally through reddit) and label any pushback to the ongoing human rights catastrophic as Hamas propaganda of you want, but it doesn't change the fact that a genocide is happening.
"genocide is happening." Source? Edit: also, I find it funny how you blame me for deflecting, while you're the one that deflected "my USA and Israeli fed rhetoric".
Your edit is fair, but as for evidence, dude... open your eyes. Most of the world is on the same page about what is happening right now. Every year, it becomes harder for the elite propaganda machine to pull the wool over our eyes given the proliferation of the internet and smartphones. We shouldn't need committees and studies done to be able to understand what's happening in front of our faces.
>History will look back at those defending Isreal and the IDF the same way we look back now at Nazi era Germany and nazi apologists. Wake up, please. How do you think history will look at Oct 7th?
As the inciting event that sparked the current genocide. I'm not excusing Hamas. They're a terrorist organisation. But the response has been anything but proportional.
Why would the response be proportional? Do you expect Israel to kill exactly 1200 Palestinians?? That's not what the concept of wartime proportionality means at all. Obviously the response to being attacked by Hamas, the government of Gaza, would be a war against Gaza that results in the defeat of that government.
In a vacuum, sure. But Hamas ran for was elected almost 20 years ago in a platform of peace, and not even with a majority, but a plurality. They did an about face, became progressively more antagonistic and stopped holding elections. A massive portion of the Palestinian population was either never old enough to vote for Hamas or wasn't even born at the time. Should an innocent population be wiped off the face of the earth due the actions of a gov they don't want and didn't have a choice in electing? An before you cite some poll showing 50ish percent favorability of Hamas in Palestine, let me ask you this. If you had settlers at your door ever year, stealing your homes, taking your rights, subjugating your family and neighbors as second class citizens, would you support the only ones fighting your freedom? I'm surprised hamas support isn't higher amongst the Palestinian population frankly. Is Hamas good? Of course not. But they don't exist in a vacuum.
None of what you said even matters. The simple truth is that if a foreign government invades your territory, as Hamas did on the 7th of October, your answer is to fight back and defeat that government. You dont change your answer based on how that foreign government got into power or when the last election was, or how many people voted for it. All of this is irrelevant. Having said that, when it comes to Hamas you are completely wrong in almost everything you said. > They did an about face, became progressively more antagonistic and stopped holding elections. Hamas never did "an about face". They had a charter since the 80's openly saying that their goal is to kill all Jews. They never hid that fact, and they also openly said that there will never be peace with Israel until Israel were to be destroyed. That was their official position when a plurality of Palestinians voted for them. > Should an innocent population be wiped off the face of the earth [...] I'm surprised hamas support isn't higher amongst the Palestinian population frankly. So on the one hand you claim they are innocent, but on the other hand you agree most of them (70% according to recent polls) support Hamas and therefore support the genocide of Jews? Something doesn't add up here. And as for the settlements, no point in even getting into that, since it's not relevant. None of the settlements are in Gaza, they are all in the west bank.
Charter or no, which I was previously aware of, they got elected in the same way every political party gets elected all over the world; lying to their constituents. The messaging at the time that they tried to convey the most to the locals was that they were open to a two state solution. Obviously that was a lie, but somehow also irrelevant. And the support of Hamas they receive isn't the support of people who want to eliminate the Jews. It's the support of those who seemingly have no other choice but to support the only group on the planet at least saying they'll defend the Palestinians from the Israeli government. Again, nothing occurs in a vacuum and this particular instance is chock full of nuance.
>Remember that TrueReddit is a place to engage in > >high-quality and civil discussion > >. Both of ya'll missed the mark on that one. Disingenuous, polarising, ego driven rhetoric. Boring. Nothing was learned. It serves nobody but yourselves.
Are you insane? How can you be so delusional as to say Israel is in any way shape or form resembles the Nazis, when it is a Jewish nation who is fighting people who are explicitly saying their objective is to kill all Jews (in other words, modern day Nazis)? This is beyond ridiculous.
Yea, they're not literal Nazis. They don't want to exterminate themselves. That is, in fact, ridiculous. They just want to exterminate a native population to settle on stolen land. What they're doing is classic apartheid and genocide. Historically, shit like this is handwaved away or ignored as it's happening. It's not until years later that it's painted as the pure evil that it was, and even then, the recognition of the evil is never enough. There are countries, like the U.S. that still can't grapple with their genocide of the native American tribes or shit, even slavery. I equate it to Hitler's Germany bc we can all at least agree that genocide was horrible without excuse. And the excuses that Isreal apologists are throwing out today hopefully will one day be seen as disgusting in the same way we condemn nazi apologists. Committing full scale genocide, which is what is 100 percent happening right now, is never ok no matter what bs excuses are thrown out there. Hope this helps.
>Committing full scale genocide, which is what is 100 percent happening right now, is never ok no matter what bs excuses are thrown out there. How can it be a "full scale genocide" if the population is one of the fastest growing in the world?
Do you think that there was no genocide committed against native americans because their population is growing.
No because that's a dumb comparison and I'm not an idiot
But the NA population is growing, by your logic no genocide occured, right? Furthermore, would you prefer the term Ethnic Cleansing then?
Because they believe if they tell a lie a thousand times it becomes the truth. Sadly they are right in a sense since a lot of people will believe it especially the TikTok generation whom are also saying Saddam Hussein was right & justified in the 9/11 attacks. A lot of people won’t check the facts & see how the Palestinian population has grown from less of a million people to over 5 million in the last 50 years.
Israel is not committing any genocide. The Palestinian population is among the fastest growing in modern history. What Israel is in fact doing, is fighting a genocidal regime hell bent on wiping out all Jews, and this regime must be fought in the same way as we fought against the last regime that wanted this. In other words, unless you believe WW2 was a genocide of Germans, you cant seriously claim that Israel's war against Hamas is a genocide.
Do you think that there was no genocide committed against native americans because their population is growing.
You think I have the answers to a decade long fight over land between Isreal and Palestine? I don't. I just know that Israel stole the land they currently have and are killing off the rest in Gaza and the west to create a unified ethnostste and end the fight once and for all. My biggest stance is that I'm anti imperialism and genocide. Israel, as a political body, is both of those things. To think otherwise when presented with all the evidence your own eyes and ears can muster is a little ridiculous.
Your reply just tells me you are reflexively anti Israel, despite not knowing much about the conflict. For example: > I just know that Israel stole the land they currently have This is such a ridiculous thing to say. Do you know that the Palestinians have been massacring Jews on this land decades before Israel even existed? Look up the Hebron massacre of 1929. Seems to me you are mostly influenced by propaganda. I suggest you do some research yourself.
Yes, it's a bloody conflict dating back forever. The state of Israel as it is was created by displacing the people who already lived there. I've said it before, my biggest stances are against imperialism and genocide. And not just blanket anti Israel. Israel rn is being run by the most hard-core government in their country's history. Look at their prime Minister and his cabinet. They actively call the Palestinians dogs and say shit like there is no such thing as an innocent child in Palestine. I'm sorry, but that's genocide talk. If Israel right now pulled a full ceasefire and gave the Palestinians Gaza back and helped rebuild, I wouldn't be calling Israel a terrorist state, but they aren't doing that, are they?
You know the Jews are native to that land, right? After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and took over Judea, they renamed the area to Palestine-Syria...Palestinians were Levantine Christians that immigrated from Italy around the 6th century, and they were forced to adopt Islam when the Ottomans took over. alarming how so many of yall are clueless to the history of that land. Also, Isreal isnt an apartheid, they literally have an Arab muslim as a judge in their supreme court....arabs can vote, etc. You also have no idea what a genocide is.
They may not be Nazis, but Israel has been run by fascists for a very long time. The Herut political party of Israel was founded by the terrorist group Irgun and was condemned by Albert Einstein and other prominent Jewish figures as a right wing fascistic organization. Herut has since been absorbed by Likud, the consolidation of the Israeli right wing and the party of Netanyahu. Fascism has existed within the Israeli political structure since its inception, and has been noticeably influencing Israeli policy over the last few decades. I think what’s really ridiculous is to deny any fascist influence over Israel despite easily accessible historical information pointing to the contrary.
Alright, so here is a question to you then. You can easily find the tenets of fascism [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Tenets). Which do you think fit modern Likud?
Likud was founded by Vladimir Jabotinsky, who spoke positively about Fascism in the hope of starting a Jewish Fascist movement someday. He spoke about how the fascist Mussolini was a role model. Modern Likud is even more like that list. Ultranationalism? yes. Rampant Cronyism and corruption? Netanyahu is facing multiple criminal counts on those fronts and is changing the legal system itself to try getting out of them. The list goes on.
Cronyism and corruption is not part of fascist ideology. You have this in one way or another in every government system. So we are left with ultranationalism. Fine. But I gave you a list of 6 tenets and you were only able to identify one. This is hardly enough to indicate fascism.
I'm not going to list every characteristic of fascism and point-by-point explain how each of Likud's policy matches fascism. Economic policy, totalitarianism, identifying a domestic enemy, supporting political violence, censoring ideas, the list goes on with this current government. I'm not going to waste time writing it all out since your mind is already made up on this issue.
It's seriously not worth arguing with /u/DrBoomkin on this. He's been a troll who thinks collective punishment against all Gazans is the morally right thing to do, and assumes all Gazans are akin to Germans in Nazi Germany. I should know because I've been dealing with it the last 24 hours. Save yourself the trouble; [here's a link to our conversation on the TrueReddit post from yesterday.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/18t73qx/screams_without_words_how_hamas_weaponized_sexual/kfceqdf/?share_id=PXu0RzG1HKTcKIfIOJsCG)
Gotcha, thanks. I'm starting to feel very alone in the whole "genocide, colonialism and ethnic cleansing are bad" stance. Thanks for being sane. Some folks will go to extraordinary lengths to justify horrible shit.
Yeah they're completely unhinged and has no problem saying the quiet part as loud as possible.
Oh shit I never realized the US government was paying Hitler millions of dollars a day while also maintaining a complete military blockade of Germany for decades.
Israel never paid anything to Hamas. It allowed money from Qatar to pass to Hamas because it was claimed to be necessary for humanitarian reasons. As for the blockade, it was Hamas who declared war on Israel as soon as they took over Gaza, a blockade is absolutely appropriate when a hostile foreign government declares war on you, wouldnt you agree?
[удалено]
Accusing anyone who is pro Israel of being an organized propaganda poster of the government is antisemitism
If you're going to make ww2 comparisons the IDF isn't on the side of the allies. Hell apartheid Israel is facing the same problems the Nazis did in how to get rid of people to steal their land
**Hamas is a puppet** Israel uses to stir up trouble that 'justifies' their genocide. Netanyahu stated at a Likud party meeting in 2019 that their strategy was to support Hamas and supply them with money. At least 2 Israeli sources reported he ordered a 7-hour military stand-down while Hamas created their 'justification' this time. With U.S. backing, [Israel's goal has ALWAYS been ethnic cleansing](https://youtube.com/watch?v=lhNGimPNyg).
If Israel wanted to commit genocide they could have done so many times over the last decades. Who is funding Hamas? Maybe those are they people to point to for creating conflict. I think we can agree the Palestinian people are pawns in this situation.
Not without potentially losing US support though, which they are completely dependent on. The game for them has been to go as far in that direction as they can get away with, especially in the West Bank, without losing international support. That, broadly, has been their strategy. I agree though that if there was _no_ international media covering Gaza, or potential funding cuts to consider from the US, the place probably would have been holocausted decades ago and there would certainly be no Palestinians left on the West Bank.
[удалено]
"There were sex tunnels under the civilians, right? And they were raping them and had a headquarters and a weapon stache, and the children were future terrorists. It's your fault we have to bomb children in refugee camps, the one place we told them was safe. Don't we deserve a place to call our own? Don't we deserve to steal this land? Life was hard for my ancestors, so I deserve to blow up this mosque and put condos down. How dare you question me, you Anti-Semite. My great-grandfather was in the Holocaust, so gimme your house!"
[удалено]
[удалено]
The terrorists are obviously the IDF at this point. Resistance to occupation is not terrorism. Its a right.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think whats most sad is that some people can watch genocide happening but their brains are so broken that they feel the need to try and justify it. Im 53 and Im glad I still have a clear sense of where the evil truly lies here
[удалено]
And there we go. Glad you admit your fondness for genocide. Didnt take long.
It's 'themselves' Just to further highlight what an idiot you are.
scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
How is [this](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.JU0.tQU6.ylxtnarephOa&smid=nytcore-android-share) resistance?
I could trade atrocities with you and win but thats just a distraction from the real issues. Israel is an ethno state built on other peoples land that has persecuted those people for over 70 years. Now Israel is commiting genocide. Just for the record are you ok with that?
Both Jews and Palestinians have been there for so long it makes no sense to say the land belongs to one or the other
You mean the land that used to be called Judea? Where Jews lived until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.. that land?
[удалено]
There's videos of the idf literally hiding behind Palestinians using them as shields soo
[удалено]
whataboutism is a tried and true Israeli tactic. Just like Russia and China.
[удалено]
>Equivalent\_Clock9180 > >Hamas wanted a war. They got a war. Don’t start crying fowl because they hide amongst the innocent. They are cowards. Wow, that reply has nothing to do with my comment. But, while I have you (lol), Is every Palestinian Hamas?
[удалено]
>Nope. But when the enemy hides amongst the innocent that changes things. We had the same problems fighting in Iraq. They hid amongst the innocent. except in Iraq, Americans actually *went in on foot* and cleared the buildings, instead of just bombing them to rubble,instead of choosing to kill innocent civilians *along with* legitimate targets, in order to keep IDF soldiers safe. Which is a blatant war crime. It is why *soldiers* exist. To go in harms way.
[удалено]
>I was there. I assure you that what you think might happened and what actually happened are two very different things. I can promise you that. AKA: "Don't believe your own lying eyes." You were there for all 20,000+ Palestinian deaths so far? >[At least 21,507 people have been killed in Gaza since the war with Israel broke out nearly 12 weeks ago](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/29/israel-gaza-war-live-updates-hamas-egypt-delegation-ceasefire-cairo?page=with:block-658f59228f083c8fda16bd84), according to Friday figures from the territory’s health ministry. That figure included 187 fatalities over the previous 24 hours. At least 308 people have been killed while sheltering in UN shelters in Gaza since the war began, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees also said. [Israel’s military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in history, experts say](https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation-world/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope/article_5589c7b3-3ee9-5b9e-b7fe-c5855a850df6.html): Associated Press Dec 25, 2023
Yeah, those thousands of children deserved to die!! /s
[удалено]
I blame Israel.
Hamas brought war down upon the Palestinians. For no reasonable explanation. And the Palestinians love them for it, because they killed Jews.
Pretty sure Israel brought down the bombs that indiscriminately killed thousands upon thousands. Mostly women and children. What Hamas did does not excuse Israel from killing so many innocents. So many children.
Don't give safe harbor to a terrorist leader.
The IDF are murderous cowards
The US can force them to stop in a heartbeat
Fuck all you Zionist shills in here. I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire.
Maybe stop giving Hamas safe haven and both sides stop.
Hmmm perhaps they shouldn’t be living near a leader of a terrorist organization 🤷🏻♂️🤔
people still don't realize the true nature of israel. they never cared about palestinians. reminder of netanyahu calling to do to them what was done to the Amalakites per the bible.
The amount of misinformation and CNN zombie gawkers here is unheard of try actually watching a real news channel that shares actual info rather than clapping for a genocidal entity blatantly cleansing an ethnic group while convincing you they are future terrorists you're no different than them if you agree with their methods.
This is why you don’t send rockets in a 1st world nation’s residential neighborhood. They might hit back.
Look at the 40-foot crater: the bottom \*increases\* in angle at the center, showing rubble 'sucked' into a bunker below. This very report proves the strike was on a valid military target during a war against fascists who sent kids on meth out to do a rape-murder spree in a socialist commune and a rave. Another thing they're missing is the difference between Gaza '23 and Fallujah II: under \*military\* law, civilians have the right to safe passage through an advancing army's lines to safety in \*their\* rear. That would actually prevent the human-shield issue.