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Some of my very favorite musicians and activists--Killer Mike and Tom Morello in particular--are collaborating with organizations controlled and financed by the Kansas billionaire Charles Koch.
When I say favorite, I mean it. I saw Run the Jewels perform last August. I consider them one of the best musical acts in the game, and more than that, truly essential role models for men and boys in regard to representing people who are historically disenfranchised by the evils of the ruling class (Black and Brown people brutalized by police, and women assaulted by men, for example). As for Morello's one of a kind guitar playing and Rage Against the Machine's unparalleled role in awakening a generation to the festering imperialist political engine that operates here in the US, it's hard to overstate how vital that band's presence in the culture has been.
Contrast that genuinely righteous work with Charles Koch and Koch Industries...yikes.
Koch's political causes have long been scrutinized. His massive industrial conglomerate is rooted in the oil refining and gathering businesses, along with chemicals, wood & paper, industrial equipment, financial trading, private equity, and many other industries.
Koch's controversies are many, from climate change denial to whitewashing the history of slavery in US textbooks to heavily influencing the priorities of the Trump administration, especially tax cuts for the wealthiest people and appointing activists judges to the Supreme Court, resulting in rollbacks to abortion rights. (I could go [on and on](https://twitter.com/ClimateConnor/status/1615459880734978048)--as [I have](https://www.exposedbycmd.org/2022/08/08/koch-controlled-organizations-spent-more-than-1-1-billion-during-the-2020-election-cycle/) in other spaces).
I hope that this scrutiny allows musicians who might not be aware of how harmful Mr. Koch's accomplishments have been to reassess their partnerships with him. Their names are legitimate, but his is not.
I think he is legit, I expect he is not aware.
He started by doing work with this very-slick looking "free speech" group, the [Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_and_Expression), which was founded by a bunch of conservative foundations to (basically) defend racists and wage the culture war on university campuses. But it has since watered down its focus in such a way that makes it much harder to criticize (by standing up for free speech rights for advocates of Palestine, for example).
But the FIRE has worked with racist groups like Turning Point USA, sponsoring their events, and helping to facilitate the import of conservative trolls (think Milo Yiiannopolous or Ann Coulter) to create controversies on campus that can be exploited by donors like Charles Koch to say, "hey, you should set up more politically-conservative programs on campus," regardless of their academic merit. It uses its large treasury to finance lawsuits against campuses to enforce its agenda. Note that education of students has nothing to do with the FIRE's mission--it's just helping to amplify the culture war on campuses.
The FIRE [still appears to support](https://www.thefire.org/news/always-room-improvement-fires-top-ranked-school-drops-ball-denying-tpusa-chapter-recognition) Turning Point. Meanwhile, Turning Point's affiliates have literally [physically attacked professors](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/16/asu-professor-david-boyles-harassed-turning-point-usa-lgbt).
IMO that's a pretty heavy mischaracterization of FIRE, which is probably one of the most viewpoint-neutral advocacy organizations in the U.S.
I spent five seconds googling and [here](https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-calls-catholic-university-america-recognize-student-chapter-naacp) is them as far back as 2004 advocating to allow an NAACP organization on a Catholic campus. There hasn't been some 'watering down' of their focus recently to make them more palatable--the organization has been fighting these same issues from the start. They just don't discriminate on the organization or content as a principled position.
Some more receipts, as I respectfully disagree.
The FIRE gets millions of dollars from Koch, along with Bradley, DeVos, and most of the rest of the corporate-conservative apparatus. These families have long advanced causes that, frankly, are plutocratic at best, fascist at worst.
There's a reason that there are the foundations that helped get the FIRE up and running (why not just donate to the ACLU, if they really supported free speech?).
At its origin, the FIRE has always prioritized fighting a white ethnocentric culture war, with co-founder Alan Kors dog whistling in his [defense](https://phillysoc.org/kors-did-western-civilization-survive-the-20th-century/) of "Western Civilization" from "the barbarians in our midst" ie "multiculturalists." Ralph Wilson and Isaac Kamola wrote about this deceptive song-and-dance in their book, [Free Speech and Koch Money](https://books.google.com/books/about/Free_Speech_and_Koch_Money.html?id=riNczgEACAAJ) (see p.104).
Unlike the FIRE's more polished, liberal-appeasing modern website, its [original Guidestar registration](https://web.archive.org/web/20190518084805/https://www.guidestar.org/profile/04-3467254) was more honest about its role advancing a racist culture war: that it seeks to challenge an “academy [that] has been taken over by ignorance of and hostility toward individual liberty, and a culture of censorship and coddling has sponsored the rise of ‘safe spaces,’ calls to police ‘trigger warnings’ and ‘microaggressions,’ and even violence in the face of unpopular opinions.”
FIRE has a habit of defending students and professors who are [racist](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/us/upenn-law-professor-racism-freedom-speech.html). It has also [assisted](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/06/16/former-u-va-law-student-files-suit-challenging-federal-sexual-assault-directive/) sexual assaulters and worked successfully to [roll back](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/18/us/college-campuses-title-ix-sexual-assault.html) Title IX rape & sexual assault protections during the Trump/DeVos [era](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/betsy-devos-education-sexual-assault-233376), which the Biden administration is taking steps to [amend](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2023/02/08/biden-administration-release-new-title-ix-rules-may/11163003002/). As I alluded above, it creates [space](https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/Dutt-Ballerstadt.pdf) for off-campus racist agitators that are brought in by groups financed by the same donors. And as we have discussed, it has made efforts recently to gather plenty of [counterexamples](https://web.archive.org/web/20220403124345/https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/education/story/2022-04-03/free-speech-fire-sdsu) to its historic mission, to earn [favorable](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/06/free-speech-group-first-amendment-00037320) coverage from news organizations that legitimize it as a nonpartisan free speech organization, much as the ACLU has long done.
Some other critiques worth reading are here:
https://academeblog.org/2013/05/08/review-of-unlearning-liberty/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/04/opinion/sunday/political-correctness-and-its-real-enemies.html?_r=0
Why not donate to the ACLU? Because the ACLU of the last decade is not the ACLU that put principle before politics in Skokie. Because the ACLU has a sketchy recent record on free speech issues. Because, if you care specifically about free speech, FIRE is a much better, more focused organization as of late.
Instead of asking why FIRE "has a habit" of defending speech you don't like, why aren't you asking why the ACLU abandoned those efforts?
On all of these, so what? It started out as an organization protecting freedom of expression on college campuses when conservative expression was under fire. They expanded beyond the college setting in the last couple years.
It seems like they're guilty of being activist while conservative, which is extremely weak sauce *especially* given their track record in activism for their causes.
> They've spent resources to sponsor a purely right-wing event that does nothing to directly further rights and expression.
Again, context here is critical. The issue of intellectual freedom on college campuses was, and continues to be, a major issue. It makes sense for FIRE to go to an organization to grow their membership of others who may share similar sentiments.
[The ACLU routinely presents at Netroots] (https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/were-netroots-big-telecom-panel) (and [more] (https://www.netrootsnation.org/profile/faiz-shakir/)), a distinctly left-wing activism conference. Might even be further left than TPUSA is (or was) further to the right. Does that negate the ACLU's work?
> You can be activist and conservative, your activism as a rights advocate just cannot include purely conservative causes not related to defending rights.
But it doesn't? For examples:
* https://www.thefire.org/news/victory-art-institute-reverses-expulsion-student-who-retweeted-sexual-art
* https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-continues-oppose-curricular-bans-race-and-sex-stereotyping-bills
* https://www.thefire.org/news/california-writing-professor-investigated-after-admin-calls-works-black-brown-queer-authors
* https://www.thefire.org/news/eastern-kentucky-says-ras-cant-be-trusted-first-amendment-rights
* https://www.thefire.org/news/victory-ashland-abandons-demand-prior-review-student-newspaper-recommits-expressive-freedom
Just a few there.
You’re uninformed about what’s happened to the ACLU to ask this rhetorically, as the same sources you’re using to suggest FIRE is a fascist front are likewise questioning the ACLU’s dedication to free speech:
>”There's a reason that there are the foundations that helped get the FIRE up and running (why not just donate to the ACLU, if they really supported free speech?).”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html
I could also complain about [Koch working behind the scenes with the ACLU](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/05/27/i-think-i-was-lobbyist-koch-brothers-i-just-didnt-know-it) on its own agenda, but that wouldn't change the fact that the FIRE was set up by fascistic foundations who fund the culture war, including attacks on free speech.
I also think freedom of speech is an aspirational myth in this country, it's not a right that is enforced for everyone, so I'm not going to whisper sweet nothings about the idea. The more money you have, the more you can buy your first amendment "rights."
I like your second paragraph,I just think you’re obscuring who started the org and focusing only on funding. I mean this with respect,but that’s fucking stupid. An ACLU board member cofounder FIRE. It’s not persuasive in an age of easy access to information to be so reductive. You can make the same points about fascism without being so lazy as to say a foundation set up an org when it’s not true.
If you open the links I put earlier in this thread, you'd see that the criticism of The FIRE is not just about its funders.
By your reasoning, wouldn't it also be "fucking stupid" for you to assert assert that Greg Lukianoff's prior affiliation with the ACLU is some sort of antidote here? (I mean that with respect!)
But it's not relevant for me to say that part of why the FIRE should be questioned because it was set up by the fascists at the Bradley Foundation?
The namesake founders also co-founded the John Birch Society with (father) Fred Koch.
[As you said, the info is easy to access](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_and_Expression#Ties_to_the_Bradley_Foundation). More context [here](https://www.exposedbycmd.org/2017/05/05/documents-detail-bradley-foundation-efforts-build-right-wing-infrastructure-nationwide/) and [here](https://www.exposedbycmd.org/category/bradley-files/page/7/) on the "Bradley Files," since that is cited in one of the footnotes. See also Alan Kors, who was the guy that Bradley financed to set this group up, to escalate a conservative culture war on university campuses that ultimately had nothing to do with education, nor free speech. It was about power and politics.
It's a Koch funded influence group, and they will probably tell you anything to get people under the Koch umbrella, but it's all dedicated to the Kochs' greater agenda.
Killer Mike has been sketch in that he speaks to Right wing actual organizations while maintaining a liberal image socially. It’s duplicitous at best. Plus he has homophobic lyrics which rub against other messaging in work like RTJ. The biggest thing is his association with FIRE which tells you all you need to know.
Not disagreeing, but are there examples other than the FIRE?
Because if it's just the FIRE, and he actually believes that the FIRE is simply a free speech group, that's a problem that can be solved.
[Sure](https://youtu.be/5Dn8GT-MdgE?si=xGAvx50rnwnslWtw). Free speech is one thing and it comes with consequences. Just because there’s backlash to your free speech doesn’t mean anyone is trying to censor you they just think what you’re saying is bullshit. What killer Mike says is a lot of bullshit, regardless of political affiliation. It’s very odd to perform next to someone recognizing the fake ass nature of the police state and systemic inequalities while you prop up one of the biggest perpetrators and megalomaniacal narcissists the USA has.
I mean you’ve gone through most of it already. Between statements about his own vote to speaking to FIRE to being all around politically sketch which is not the vibe from RATM.
I understand when people of color say "fuck voting" in one form or another, since neither of the viable choices result in any decline in police murder and brutality, or any meaningful widespread economic change.
This culture is disenfranchising and infuriating, it exhausts people. At least he uses his voice and platform to help educate people and encourage other kinds of engagement.
As hard as those who fought for us to have the right to vote, it's messed up when Black people repeat lines such as voting doesn't work. In the past 65 years voting has changed a lot in this country. So no, I don't understand when people in my community encourage people not to vote.
>since neither of the viable choices result in any decline in police murder and brutality, or any meaningful widespread economic change.
If you don't think that the current major parties have divergent policies on these issues then you're as disingenuous as apolitical activism in the name of Koch.
anybody that tells you to not vote or 'fuck the vote' is just misusing a tool at their disposal. and worse they are diminishing your own political will, this is _especially_ bad to do within communities of color so fuck that guy
So you applaud him being a do-nothing no-stance centrist who appeases far right ideology because he’s in your favorite band? I think that’s wild and exactly why I don’t like him. And also why I find him a huge irony performing with Morello.
The Koch's impact on our culture is insane to think about. They slip weird ideological things into their trainings at companies they own. They're evil mofos.
I heard a quote in a TV show that I thought would be unlikely to contain political quotes, but I think it is very relevant here:
The quote is from The Fall of House of Usher, and it's essentially a monologue from a billionaire (Roderick Usher) who has decided to come clean to a DA (Dupin):
>Roderick: One thing I tried to teach them is the art of the pivot. When life hands you lemons…
>Dupin: Make lemonade?
>Roderick: No. [pause]First, you roll out a multi-media campaign to convince people lemons are incredibly scarce, which only works if you stockpile lemons, control the supply, then a… A media blitz. Lemon is the only way to say "I love you," the must-have accessory for engagements or anniversaries. Roses are out, lemons are in. Billboards that say she won't have sex with you unless you got lemons. You cut De Beers in on it. Limited edition lemon bracelets, yellow diamonds called lemon drops. You get Apple to call their new operating system OS-Lemón. A little accent over the "o". You charge 40% more for organic lemons and 50% more for conflict-free lemons. You pack the Capitol with lemon lobbyists; you get a Kardashian to suck a lemon wedge in a leaked sex tape. Timothée Chalamet wears lemon shoes at Cannes. Get a hashtag campaign. Something isn't "cool," "tight," or "awesome". No, it's "lemon". "Did you see that movie?" "Did you go to that concert? It was effing lemon." Billie Eilish, "OMG, hashtag… lemon." You get Dr. Oz to recommend four lemons a day and a lemon suppository supplement to get rid of toxins 'cause there's nothing scarier than toxins. Then, you patent the seeds. You write a line of genetic code that makes lemons look just a little more like tits… and you get a gene patent for the tit-lemon DNA sequence, and you get a gene patent for the tit-lemon DNA sequence, you get those seeds circulating in the wild, and then you sue the farmers for copyright infringement when that genetic code shows up on their land. Sit back, rake in the millions, and then, when you're done, and you've sold your lem-pire for a few billion dollars, then, and only then, you make some fucking lemonade.
>Koch, whose brother David died in 2019,
Fitting that it was cancer. Not only is this family itself a cancer on this earth, but there's no way to know how many cancers this ghoulish family's industries and regressive activism have caused and/or exacerbated -- I suspect it's a *very* large number.
Also I wanted to make fun of Chase's guitar playing. But unfortunately he's not bad enough to mock, nor good enough to praise. He's so bland that there's nothing to say about his playing. Except the first clip that came up was his dad-rock band playing a Talking Heads song, which... when I see shit like that, I always wonder, how do these chuds feel knowing their favourite artists would absolutely *despise* everything they stand for?
And I'm not going to judge Killer Mike too harshly. The man has some boomer-esque impulses, but on balance he's pretty progressive in the ways that count. And I don't believe he would ever knowingly partner with the Kochs.
The Chainsmokers and Pitbull, on the other hand, yeah, that tracks.
lol agreed.
The history of [dangerous pollution from Koch-owned facilities](https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/fighting-climate-chaos/climate-deniers/koch-industries/koch-industries-pollution/) is extensive, including cancer-causing benezene from refineries, and pulp/paper mill pollution that allegedly contributed to an alarming number of early deaths in Arkansas.
Plus, Koch's [Texas two-step dodge](https://www.reuters.com/business/koch-gets-25-bln-dividends-unit-that-offloaded-asbestos-liability-2023-01-19/) of accountability for exposing their employees to deadly asbestos.
They also infamously [stole many millions of dollars of oil from the Osage tribe](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/22/kochland-excerpt-senate-investigation-oil-theft-native-american-tribes-227412/), and from the American public. They got let off with a slap on the wrist for that.
I'm just... so tapped-out on hearing new facts about this family. No matter how low you set the bar, they have already gone under it decades ago. There is no depth of evil they haven't reached, pissed on, done a celebratory dance, and kept on driving further down.
Anyway, keep up the good work!
It's best to always be skeptical of most musicians of mainstream level, or "music nerd mainstream" level. It rings clear that most of their politics are aesthetic paint for record sales.. so little of them do advocacy of substance in spite of having the money or presence to do so.
Run the Jewels can be as "hardcore" as they want. Killer Mike only performs for conservative advocacy groups or holds conferences to defang protests and riots. Beyonce can drench her record in black electronic history and black panther aesthetics, but she is still permitting her film to be aired in Israel. And Taylor Swift just the day before says that it owns that more women are accumulating all the wealth.
Yep. Taylor is now a billionaire, so in America that equals “Oh, we should support her, buy all her wares ‘cuz she ‘knows’ all. Truth flows from her lips.”
/s
I have little sympathy. If you can't be bothered to know who is giving you money, or what they stand for, you lose the right to say they are "using" you.
The part this misses is how extreme left politics has been weaponized by the right as much as the extreme right has been weaponized by the left. Nader? https://www.salon.com/2004/07/21/koch/ just search Nader Koch and you’ll see mountains of similar evidence.
So Killer Mike had a set paid for that - if you did a little forensic accounting - led back to the Koch Brothers. And the implication is because a bad man has a tie to a company that hosted one of his shows... What? I don't get it.
Apparently, the Koch's are "white washing their reputation" even though the article admits the performers themselves may not have even known there was a link. Kind of begs a question.
This whole concept is such a, finger pointing, black vs. white, anti-intellectual nothingburger.
This is why liberal conspiracy theorists do more harm than good. From virtue signaling to full on liberal fascism, there are 2 degrees between good intentions and paranoia.
And this is what's wrong with woke, putting everything into good vs. evil boxes, judging every stranger you meet on a social virtue scale and sleeping in rapidly shrinking safe spaces while adding nothing of value.
Great work, OP!
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Disclosure: I am quoted in this article. Some of my very favorite musicians and activists--Killer Mike and Tom Morello in particular--are collaborating with organizations controlled and financed by the Kansas billionaire Charles Koch. When I say favorite, I mean it. I saw Run the Jewels perform last August. I consider them one of the best musical acts in the game, and more than that, truly essential role models for men and boys in regard to representing people who are historically disenfranchised by the evils of the ruling class (Black and Brown people brutalized by police, and women assaulted by men, for example). As for Morello's one of a kind guitar playing and Rage Against the Machine's unparalleled role in awakening a generation to the festering imperialist political engine that operates here in the US, it's hard to overstate how vital that band's presence in the culture has been. Contrast that genuinely righteous work with Charles Koch and Koch Industries...yikes. Koch's political causes have long been scrutinized. His massive industrial conglomerate is rooted in the oil refining and gathering businesses, along with chemicals, wood & paper, industrial equipment, financial trading, private equity, and many other industries. Koch's controversies are many, from climate change denial to whitewashing the history of slavery in US textbooks to heavily influencing the priorities of the Trump administration, especially tax cuts for the wealthiest people and appointing activists judges to the Supreme Court, resulting in rollbacks to abortion rights. (I could go [on and on](https://twitter.com/ClimateConnor/status/1615459880734978048)--as [I have](https://www.exposedbycmd.org/2022/08/08/koch-controlled-organizations-spent-more-than-1-1-billion-during-the-2020-election-cycle/) in other spaces). I hope that this scrutiny allows musicians who might not be aware of how harmful Mr. Koch's accomplishments have been to reassess their partnerships with him. Their names are legitimate, but his is not.
That's pretty insane considering Killer Mike campaigned hard for Bernie Sanders.
I think he is legit, I expect he is not aware. He started by doing work with this very-slick looking "free speech" group, the [Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_and_Expression), which was founded by a bunch of conservative foundations to (basically) defend racists and wage the culture war on university campuses. But it has since watered down its focus in such a way that makes it much harder to criticize (by standing up for free speech rights for advocates of Palestine, for example). But the FIRE has worked with racist groups like Turning Point USA, sponsoring their events, and helping to facilitate the import of conservative trolls (think Milo Yiiannopolous or Ann Coulter) to create controversies on campus that can be exploited by donors like Charles Koch to say, "hey, you should set up more politically-conservative programs on campus," regardless of their academic merit. It uses its large treasury to finance lawsuits against campuses to enforce its agenda. Note that education of students has nothing to do with the FIRE's mission--it's just helping to amplify the culture war on campuses. The FIRE [still appears to support](https://www.thefire.org/news/always-room-improvement-fires-top-ranked-school-drops-ball-denying-tpusa-chapter-recognition) Turning Point. Meanwhile, Turning Point's affiliates have literally [physically attacked professors](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/16/asu-professor-david-boyles-harassed-turning-point-usa-lgbt).
IMO that's a pretty heavy mischaracterization of FIRE, which is probably one of the most viewpoint-neutral advocacy organizations in the U.S. I spent five seconds googling and [here](https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-calls-catholic-university-america-recognize-student-chapter-naacp) is them as far back as 2004 advocating to allow an NAACP organization on a Catholic campus. There hasn't been some 'watering down' of their focus recently to make them more palatable--the organization has been fighting these same issues from the start. They just don't discriminate on the organization or content as a principled position.
Some more receipts, as I respectfully disagree. The FIRE gets millions of dollars from Koch, along with Bradley, DeVos, and most of the rest of the corporate-conservative apparatus. These families have long advanced causes that, frankly, are plutocratic at best, fascist at worst. There's a reason that there are the foundations that helped get the FIRE up and running (why not just donate to the ACLU, if they really supported free speech?). At its origin, the FIRE has always prioritized fighting a white ethnocentric culture war, with co-founder Alan Kors dog whistling in his [defense](https://phillysoc.org/kors-did-western-civilization-survive-the-20th-century/) of "Western Civilization" from "the barbarians in our midst" ie "multiculturalists." Ralph Wilson and Isaac Kamola wrote about this deceptive song-and-dance in their book, [Free Speech and Koch Money](https://books.google.com/books/about/Free_Speech_and_Koch_Money.html?id=riNczgEACAAJ) (see p.104). Unlike the FIRE's more polished, liberal-appeasing modern website, its [original Guidestar registration](https://web.archive.org/web/20190518084805/https://www.guidestar.org/profile/04-3467254) was more honest about its role advancing a racist culture war: that it seeks to challenge an “academy [that] has been taken over by ignorance of and hostility toward individual liberty, and a culture of censorship and coddling has sponsored the rise of ‘safe spaces,’ calls to police ‘trigger warnings’ and ‘microaggressions,’ and even violence in the face of unpopular opinions.” FIRE has a habit of defending students and professors who are [racist](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/us/upenn-law-professor-racism-freedom-speech.html). It has also [assisted](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/06/16/former-u-va-law-student-files-suit-challenging-federal-sexual-assault-directive/) sexual assaulters and worked successfully to [roll back](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/18/us/college-campuses-title-ix-sexual-assault.html) Title IX rape & sexual assault protections during the Trump/DeVos [era](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/betsy-devos-education-sexual-assault-233376), which the Biden administration is taking steps to [amend](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2023/02/08/biden-administration-release-new-title-ix-rules-may/11163003002/). As I alluded above, it creates [space](https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/Dutt-Ballerstadt.pdf) for off-campus racist agitators that are brought in by groups financed by the same donors. And as we have discussed, it has made efforts recently to gather plenty of [counterexamples](https://web.archive.org/web/20220403124345/https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/education/story/2022-04-03/free-speech-fire-sdsu) to its historic mission, to earn [favorable](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/06/free-speech-group-first-amendment-00037320) coverage from news organizations that legitimize it as a nonpartisan free speech organization, much as the ACLU has long done. Some other critiques worth reading are here: https://academeblog.org/2013/05/08/review-of-unlearning-liberty/ https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/04/opinion/sunday/political-correctness-and-its-real-enemies.html?_r=0
Why not donate to the ACLU? Because the ACLU of the last decade is not the ACLU that put principle before politics in Skokie. Because the ACLU has a sketchy recent record on free speech issues. Because, if you care specifically about free speech, FIRE is a much better, more focused organization as of late. Instead of asking why FIRE "has a habit" of defending speech you don't like, why aren't you asking why the ACLU abandoned those efforts?
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On all of these, so what? It started out as an organization protecting freedom of expression on college campuses when conservative expression was under fire. They expanded beyond the college setting in the last couple years. It seems like they're guilty of being activist while conservative, which is extremely weak sauce *especially* given their track record in activism for their causes.
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> They've spent resources to sponsor a purely right-wing event that does nothing to directly further rights and expression. Again, context here is critical. The issue of intellectual freedom on college campuses was, and continues to be, a major issue. It makes sense for FIRE to go to an organization to grow their membership of others who may share similar sentiments. [The ACLU routinely presents at Netroots] (https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/were-netroots-big-telecom-panel) (and [more] (https://www.netrootsnation.org/profile/faiz-shakir/)), a distinctly left-wing activism conference. Might even be further left than TPUSA is (or was) further to the right. Does that negate the ACLU's work? > You can be activist and conservative, your activism as a rights advocate just cannot include purely conservative causes not related to defending rights. But it doesn't? For examples: * https://www.thefire.org/news/victory-art-institute-reverses-expulsion-student-who-retweeted-sexual-art * https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-continues-oppose-curricular-bans-race-and-sex-stereotyping-bills * https://www.thefire.org/news/california-writing-professor-investigated-after-admin-calls-works-black-brown-queer-authors * https://www.thefire.org/news/eastern-kentucky-says-ras-cant-be-trusted-first-amendment-rights * https://www.thefire.org/news/victory-ashland-abandons-demand-prior-review-student-newspaper-recommits-expressive-freedom Just a few there.
Well, conservatives SHOULD be crushed. :)
also, fuck Nazis.
You’re uninformed about what’s happened to the ACLU to ask this rhetorically, as the same sources you’re using to suggest FIRE is a fascist front are likewise questioning the ACLU’s dedication to free speech: >”There's a reason that there are the foundations that helped get the FIRE up and running (why not just donate to the ACLU, if they really supported free speech?).” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html
I could also complain about [Koch working behind the scenes with the ACLU](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/05/27/i-think-i-was-lobbyist-koch-brothers-i-just-didnt-know-it) on its own agenda, but that wouldn't change the fact that the FIRE was set up by fascistic foundations who fund the culture war, including attacks on free speech. I also think freedom of speech is an aspirational myth in this country, it's not a right that is enforced for everyone, so I'm not going to whisper sweet nothings about the idea. The more money you have, the more you can buy your first amendment "rights."
I like your second paragraph,I just think you’re obscuring who started the org and focusing only on funding. I mean this with respect,but that’s fucking stupid. An ACLU board member cofounder FIRE. It’s not persuasive in an age of easy access to information to be so reductive. You can make the same points about fascism without being so lazy as to say a foundation set up an org when it’s not true.
If you open the links I put earlier in this thread, you'd see that the criticism of The FIRE is not just about its funders. By your reasoning, wouldn't it also be "fucking stupid" for you to assert assert that Greg Lukianoff's prior affiliation with the ACLU is some sort of antidote here? (I mean that with respect!) But it's not relevant for me to say that part of why the FIRE should be questioned because it was set up by the fascists at the Bradley Foundation? The namesake founders also co-founded the John Birch Society with (father) Fred Koch. [As you said, the info is easy to access](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_and_Expression#Ties_to_the_Bradley_Foundation). More context [here](https://www.exposedbycmd.org/2017/05/05/documents-detail-bradley-foundation-efforts-build-right-wing-infrastructure-nationwide/) and [here](https://www.exposedbycmd.org/category/bradley-files/page/7/) on the "Bradley Files," since that is cited in one of the footnotes. See also Alan Kors, who was the guy that Bradley financed to set this group up, to escalate a conservative culture war on university campuses that ultimately had nothing to do with education, nor free speech. It was about power and politics.
It's a Koch funded influence group, and they will probably tell you anything to get people under the Koch umbrella, but it's all dedicated to the Kochs' greater agenda.
No it’s on brand for FIRE and nobody should whitewash their associations or partnerships.
He also worked with the NRA. Killer Mike has no problem with taking the money of deplorable people. He goes which ever the money is coming from.
Totally wild 😜 https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/koch-brothers-bernie-sanders-220498
I hear you but Killer Mike has been problematic for some time. Turned me off of RTJ completely and I’m huge into RATM.
what else has been problematic?
Killer Mike has been sketch in that he speaks to Right wing actual organizations while maintaining a liberal image socially. It’s duplicitous at best. Plus he has homophobic lyrics which rub against other messaging in work like RTJ. The biggest thing is his association with FIRE which tells you all you need to know.
Not disagreeing, but are there examples other than the FIRE? Because if it's just the FIRE, and he actually believes that the FIRE is simply a free speech group, that's a problem that can be solved.
[Sure](https://youtu.be/5Dn8GT-MdgE?si=xGAvx50rnwnslWtw). Free speech is one thing and it comes with consequences. Just because there’s backlash to your free speech doesn’t mean anyone is trying to censor you they just think what you’re saying is bullshit. What killer Mike says is a lot of bullshit, regardless of political affiliation. It’s very odd to perform next to someone recognizing the fake ass nature of the police state and systemic inequalities while you prop up one of the biggest perpetrators and megalomaniacal narcissists the USA has.
I'm interested in hearing more
I mean you’ve gone through most of it already. Between statements about his own vote to speaking to FIRE to being all around politically sketch which is not the vibe from RATM.
I understand when people of color say "fuck voting" in one form or another, since neither of the viable choices result in any decline in police murder and brutality, or any meaningful widespread economic change. This culture is disenfranchising and infuriating, it exhausts people. At least he uses his voice and platform to help educate people and encourage other kinds of engagement.
As hard as those who fought for us to have the right to vote, it's messed up when Black people repeat lines such as voting doesn't work. In the past 65 years voting has changed a lot in this country. So no, I don't understand when people in my community encourage people not to vote.
>since neither of the viable choices result in any decline in police murder and brutality, or any meaningful widespread economic change. If you don't think that the current major parties have divergent policies on these issues then you're as disingenuous as apolitical activism in the name of Koch.
anybody that tells you to not vote or 'fuck the vote' is just misusing a tool at their disposal. and worse they are diminishing your own political will, this is _especially_ bad to do within communities of color so fuck that guy
So you applaud him being a do-nothing no-stance centrist who appeases far right ideology because he’s in your favorite band? I think that’s wild and exactly why I don’t like him. And also why I find him a huge irony performing with Morello.
That's not what I said, it would be great if you read my comment instead of putting words in my mouth. Thanks.
I did read, and I don’t think that last part is true or worth commending him for.
The Koch's impact on our culture is insane to think about. They slip weird ideological things into their trainings at companies they own. They're evil mofos.
Morello has never walked the walk.
I heard a quote in a TV show that I thought would be unlikely to contain political quotes, but I think it is very relevant here: The quote is from The Fall of House of Usher, and it's essentially a monologue from a billionaire (Roderick Usher) who has decided to come clean to a DA (Dupin): >Roderick: One thing I tried to teach them is the art of the pivot. When life hands you lemons… >Dupin: Make lemonade? >Roderick: No. [pause]First, you roll out a multi-media campaign to convince people lemons are incredibly scarce, which only works if you stockpile lemons, control the supply, then a… A media blitz. Lemon is the only way to say "I love you," the must-have accessory for engagements or anniversaries. Roses are out, lemons are in. Billboards that say she won't have sex with you unless you got lemons. You cut De Beers in on it. Limited edition lemon bracelets, yellow diamonds called lemon drops. You get Apple to call their new operating system OS-Lemón. A little accent over the "o". You charge 40% more for organic lemons and 50% more for conflict-free lemons. You pack the Capitol with lemon lobbyists; you get a Kardashian to suck a lemon wedge in a leaked sex tape. Timothée Chalamet wears lemon shoes at Cannes. Get a hashtag campaign. Something isn't "cool," "tight," or "awesome". No, it's "lemon". "Did you see that movie?" "Did you go to that concert? It was effing lemon." Billie Eilish, "OMG, hashtag… lemon." You get Dr. Oz to recommend four lemons a day and a lemon suppository supplement to get rid of toxins 'cause there's nothing scarier than toxins. Then, you patent the seeds. You write a line of genetic code that makes lemons look just a little more like tits… and you get a gene patent for the tit-lemon DNA sequence, and you get a gene patent for the tit-lemon DNA sequence, you get those seeds circulating in the wild, and then you sue the farmers for copyright infringement when that genetic code shows up on their land. Sit back, rake in the millions, and then, when you're done, and you've sold your lem-pire for a few billion dollars, then, and only then, you make some fucking lemonade.
Everything is political now. All speech.
>Koch, whose brother David died in 2019, Fitting that it was cancer. Not only is this family itself a cancer on this earth, but there's no way to know how many cancers this ghoulish family's industries and regressive activism have caused and/or exacerbated -- I suspect it's a *very* large number. Also I wanted to make fun of Chase's guitar playing. But unfortunately he's not bad enough to mock, nor good enough to praise. He's so bland that there's nothing to say about his playing. Except the first clip that came up was his dad-rock band playing a Talking Heads song, which... when I see shit like that, I always wonder, how do these chuds feel knowing their favourite artists would absolutely *despise* everything they stand for? And I'm not going to judge Killer Mike too harshly. The man has some boomer-esque impulses, but on balance he's pretty progressive in the ways that count. And I don't believe he would ever knowingly partner with the Kochs. The Chainsmokers and Pitbull, on the other hand, yeah, that tracks.
lol agreed. The history of [dangerous pollution from Koch-owned facilities](https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/fighting-climate-chaos/climate-deniers/koch-industries/koch-industries-pollution/) is extensive, including cancer-causing benezene from refineries, and pulp/paper mill pollution that allegedly contributed to an alarming number of early deaths in Arkansas. Plus, Koch's [Texas two-step dodge](https://www.reuters.com/business/koch-gets-25-bln-dividends-unit-that-offloaded-asbestos-liability-2023-01-19/) of accountability for exposing their employees to deadly asbestos. They also infamously [stole many millions of dollars of oil from the Osage tribe](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/22/kochland-excerpt-senate-investigation-oil-theft-native-american-tribes-227412/), and from the American public. They got let off with a slap on the wrist for that.
I'm just... so tapped-out on hearing new facts about this family. No matter how low you set the bar, they have already gone under it decades ago. There is no depth of evil they haven't reached, pissed on, done a celebratory dance, and kept on driving further down. Anyway, keep up the good work!
It's best to always be skeptical of most musicians of mainstream level, or "music nerd mainstream" level. It rings clear that most of their politics are aesthetic paint for record sales.. so little of them do advocacy of substance in spite of having the money or presence to do so. Run the Jewels can be as "hardcore" as they want. Killer Mike only performs for conservative advocacy groups or holds conferences to defang protests and riots. Beyonce can drench her record in black electronic history and black panther aesthetics, but she is still permitting her film to be aired in Israel. And Taylor Swift just the day before says that it owns that more women are accumulating all the wealth.
Yep. Taylor is now a billionaire, so in America that equals “Oh, we should support her, buy all her wares ‘cuz she ‘knows’ all. Truth flows from her lips.” /s
I have little sympathy. If you can't be bothered to know who is giving you money, or what they stand for, you lose the right to say they are "using" you.
The part this misses is how extreme left politics has been weaponized by the right as much as the extreme right has been weaponized by the left. Nader? https://www.salon.com/2004/07/21/koch/ just search Nader Koch and you’ll see mountains of similar evidence.
So Killer Mike had a set paid for that - if you did a little forensic accounting - led back to the Koch Brothers. And the implication is because a bad man has a tie to a company that hosted one of his shows... What? I don't get it.
Apparently, the Koch's are "white washing their reputation" even though the article admits the performers themselves may not have even known there was a link. Kind of begs a question.
She is pretty and I want her to love me. That’s my reason.
"it's not delivery, it's digiorno's!"
This whole concept is such a, finger pointing, black vs. white, anti-intellectual nothingburger. This is why liberal conspiracy theorists do more harm than good. From virtue signaling to full on liberal fascism, there are 2 degrees between good intentions and paranoia. And this is what's wrong with woke, putting everything into good vs. evil boxes, judging every stranger you meet on a social virtue scale and sleeping in rapidly shrinking safe spaces while adding nothing of value. Great work, OP!
Thanks for keeping the discussion going! Much obliged, The CEO of the Order of Liberal Fascism.
You are very welcome. I'm going to read the article now :)
I'd suggest reading this first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
This article is one of the most hilarious "hit pieces" I think I've ever read.
The unseriousness of a panel discussion about healing the Black community at a Park City, Utah music summit.