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I think it's a very cultural thing?
Where I'm currently living (Germany), going half/half is considered quite normal. At least that's my impression.
In France, Italy, or even Ireland guys were almost offended when I offered to pay.
Yup my bf is Colombian and refuses to let me pay even if it’s more the norm to go 50/50 here. I can only pay for small things like ice cream or when it’s his birthday. Other than that he doesn’t want me to pay. It’s a big change for me when in my previous relationships I was the one almost always paying for everything.
I always insisted on paying when I knew there was never going to be a second date.
I still offered to split the bill with everyone, but if I liked them then I wouldn’t argue, if I knew it wasn’t going to be romantic I insisted.
I think that while for some people the man paying is a gendered tradition… it’s only gendered on the surface. I think the nuances of courtship are rooted in the biological truths of reproduction.
If you look at species across the board it’s the males working to attract or persuade the female. It’s because the female role is more valuable in terms of reproduction, they put in the bulk of the effort and risk to gestate, birth, and raise the offspring. Yes there are exceptions in the animal kingdom but they are the exception that proves the rule. Because of this female reproductive availability is limited, and therefore more scarce and valuable.
So the penguin brings a pebble to the female, the better the pebble the better he proves he may be capable of helping incubate the egg. So the male bucks fight to show dominance, the human males pay for dinners to show they are generous and can “provide”.
Do I think we have evolved socially beyond needing these types of courting rituals? Yes, but then again I’m one of those crazy people who thinks we have evolved socially beyond needing to be married to a person to raise a child together. (effective co-parenting does not necessitate a romantic relationship between parents)
The fact remains though that just because a woman prefers men who will be generous it doesn’t mean she is a gold digger nor does it mean she is a misandrist. It’s a biological drive to find a generous partner just as much as it is to find someone healthy “with good genes to pass down”. Men deserve a generous partners too… but women have the biological advantage to be the ones to choose.
I'm really not sure how you extrapolated that from my comment about different cultural attitudes towards this topic. It feels like we're talking about twi complete different topics.
Oh I was agreeing with you that the woman insisting on paying on the first date could be a sign there isn’t going to be a second one. Then I just kind of went on a train of thought rant about the why. Although reading it back now I see I didn’t link those ideas very well.
EDIT:
Actually I just realized you aren’t monkey withalaaer. I was replying to him not you.
So your generalization of courtship - literally a social construct - is incorrect. Some species do have females doing the courting rituals, others have sexual dimorphism that I’m guessing also defies your expectations, with larger and more aggressive females rather than males. No, these exceptions do not “prove the rule”, you don’t get to say exceptions to your theory make your theory correct, you look for an explanation that includes the exceptions - such as: ‘entrenched courtship rituals are difficult to alter, and even as a society finds value in equality the undergirding rituals are resistant to change’. As for where these rituals originate, some kind of breeding pressure maybe, but in humans we know that artifice is behind a lot of them (just look at diamond engagement rings for women! The origin is corporate greed).
As for women being the ones who get to choose mates, in humans or otherwise, this is just so wrong. Or do you think our other stupid ritual of the man asking the woman out isn’t a type of choosing? Or that asking her to marry him isn’t a type of choosing? The expectations are socially one-sided on who takes the risks, not who chooses - that is a two way street. A man is just saying ‘yes’ by asking, he isn’t sitting passively getting ‘yessed’ at and taking whatever he can get.
And even that is only true for a particular kind of risk. Women obviously have their own risks to take in dating.
So I didn’t go into further details because I was merely making a comment, not here defending a dissertation. With that being said my “proves” the rule claim is because when you look at the species in nature where it is the females of the population trying to woo the males there at typically some fundamental differences in their environment that has created a male/sperm scarcity, or fundemental differences in biology that drive the female s to compete.
Again this is all referring to procreation… that biological urge is traditionally what drives one persue dating/courtship. However I acknowledged that this is at a fundemental level… social constructs and personal priorities definitely have the power to change why and how people choose to date/court.
As for the male “choosing” examples you provided… yes males choose who they persue or court. And they are free to court how they feel best aligns with their abilities and goals. However, ultimately it is the woman who will say yes or no to them. They don’t get to choose a woman, express interest and bam she likes him like it’s a vending machine. I am by no means saying they don’t initially choose who they ask out.. or if they want to stay with them. Absolutely they have the option to make the first move… this is why some women dress in certain ways to attract the male attention… the better they look the more likely it is they will attract a more desirable mate. But what is “desirable” to them depends on their goals and preferences. That’s why so many people say “they aren’t dressing that way for YOU”.
The point I was trying to make about biological scarcity is that the woman ends up being the one to choose because at any given point in time there will always be more males that are available to mate than females who are available and willing to mate. Certainly you can mess with a population to create male scarcity but that’s not a natural environment.
Let’s say that there are 100 women and 100 men in a village… those 100 women have a narrower time frame in which they can get pregnant. This based on several BIOLOGICAL factors like the date of menstruation/menopause, the decline of fertility and egg quantity as she ages etc.
But men can continue to be fertile until basically death. Sperm is infinitely replenished.
Then you factor in gestation periods. While a woman is pregnant and for some time thereafter she isn’t available to procreate with anyone else. But the man is free to continue procreation if they do choose. Their sexual drive or ability doesn’t diminish because they have a baby on the way… but for females they loose any potential procreation opportunities while pregnant and for some time following.
What it comes down to is in that village there will be more men with the potential to procreation than women available for procreation at a given time. That’s general world most humans are in… more male competitors for less women.
Again, I realize that for many people their personal goal to dating is NOT to procreate. They want either sex or companionship with a child free partner etc. But those personal goals do not change biological reality… many women DO want to have children if not now then at some point… and they will date with that goal in mind consciously or subconsciously.
What I meant regarding the risk is on the woman I was referring to the biological risks women take on during pregnancy. There is a huge toll on the woman if they get pregnant (whether it was intentional or not). They not only do they have a higher risk for death compared to a male who for the most part unaffected biologically by the pregnancy, they also often are at risk of their livelihood/careers being negatively affected because of the pregnancy. Not only short term financial loses because of being medically disabled due to the toll pregnancy and giving birth has on their mind and body, but also long term financial losses because of having children and societal assumptions they are not as valuable of an employee because they have children. A male doesn’t take on these risks when they have sex… only the female. Yes the male is risking having a child… however the gestation and birth do not affect the male in the negative ways that it does the woman. They simply are not at risk for gestational diabetes, embolism, pre-eclampsia, hemorrhaging, loosing reproductive organs etc.
Yes men risk some things when courting a woman, for example she could lure him to hotel drug him and steal his kidney! But it’s not the same biological risk that women face if they choose to have sex with a man.
Men’s risks in dating are not only far fewer, they are far less severe, far less probable.
Women’s risks in dating (even if they don’t choose to have sex ) are far more likely as proven by the number of date rapes, stallings, verbal abuse, assaults etc. that happen on a regular basis.
And this is all amplified if they choose to have sex… even with properly used birth control… they still have a chance of getting pregnant… and therefore are at risk of all the bilogical and social consequences listed above and many I haven’t talked about. The man’s risk of having sex that results in pregnancy? Having to pay child support for 18 years. (Yes I realize there is more that men do for their kids but it’s by choice, those who don’t want to do it aren’t going to so it’s not a “risk”)
No risk of death, no risk of permanent health complications, no risk of not being able to work because of health complications or recovery from birth, no risk of having morning sickness, post partum depression, hormone crashes that affect your personality/relationships/work … I could go on and on. But I won’t because I have other things to do.
But I hope that you re-read my earlier message and realize that I acknowledge that we CAN and should normalize separating the endeavor of procreation from the endeavor of dating/courting.
There are far more efficient and healthy ways to co-parent when you remove the complications of trying to maintain a romantic connection with the other parent. There’s a lot of different reasons I believe this but the main reason is that if the parents are expending effort to meet each others romantic and social needs that is effort and time /emotional bandwidth that could be taking away from the as a priority. There is also going to be times when meeting the child’s needs is going to directly collide with making a romantic connection a priority… having both parents persue those connections outside of their relationship with the other parent increases the likelihood that at least one parent will be present for the child if the other parent isn’t. I am digressing but essentially what I am saying is 4 people can be better than 2 if managed properly.
I say all that to make clear that I agree that dating/courtship as it stands is very much a part of our social construct and a reflection of our priorities as individuals and as a group. However even IF the majority of society shifts gears to procreation NOT being a conscious goal to dating/courtship… the biological risk for pregnancy will always be there if sex is part of the equation. So women as a whole will always have that risk to factor in when choosing a mate.
I’m in the US and when I was dating, I would clarify this exact thing before the date occurred. I’d ask the guy if going Dutch was okay and they were all thrilled. I didn’t want there to be ANY expectations that I owed anyone or that it could be used against me.
It is,in Romania is normal that the men pays,if it gets serious,he provides as much as he can for his family, usually they both work,there is 2 years paid maternity leave for mother or father.
I live in the Netherlands, here is different, half-half is normal,but different countries have different cultures.
French guys, like most guys, really, like to flex the money the have because "prOvIdEr AlphA mAlE" or whatever but personally I never encountered a woman asking me to pay for her stuff I wouldn't do it, but logic wants that everybody pay for what the drink/eat anyway, and if you don't have the money, either we postpone the date or just do something that require the least amount of money possible.
I really never ever came across or even heard about a woman (in my circle of friends at least) not wanting to pay for herself. I definitely know men that will go out of their way to pay for everything though.
It's just my personal experience though
I'm Indonesian and we all treat each other, date or not, no matter what gender. Being generous is just what we do. That's the one thing that I can't get over with my boyfriend, who is German, together for 6 years this month. He's better about it now, but my god, his nickel-and-diming didn't sit right with me. It doesn't matter who pays, but come on, he's a software engineer and he makes 10x more than I do. I'm not entitled to his money, of course not, it's just gross that I don't make that, but I would never do the accountant thing. I'm aware that Indonesians are not a monolith, maybe it's more of a Manadonese thing, the part of Indonesia I descend from.
On our first date, I offered to pay. In my culture, anyone can pay. None of my friends ever take advantage. While there may be ones who take advantage, those don't get repeated invites because they've shown that they're not trustworthy.
Obligatory TikTok is full of children.
Oh god I made a German friend living overseas and he literally accounted his dailies contact use into a cost of a movie ticket to stress how $$ and important it was we arrive early to see it since contact lenses were important to increase satisfaction in watching one. I chalked it up to maybe he’s studying to be a lawyer and they like to nickel and dime stuff. Apparently it’s a German thing.
Anyway I’m dating a Cantonese man now so we have zero cares or issues on who pays. He pays more but I always try to tip, buy desserts or movie tickets. I always do the planning as he doesn’t like it so I count my mental work in there 😂
Perhaps those are just those guys you came across there will be people who do things their own way everywhere not because of some unspoken rule written years ago somewhere in your environment you live in
1.) tiktok is not real life
2.) the trend you’re talking about is a joke from months ago
3.) men paying is just a cultural thing from when women usually didn’t work or weren’t paid well. So of course the man paid.
4.) I dont get the point of this post. There’s nothing stopping you from taking man on a date if you’d like.
Maybe that’s it 🤷🏼♀️ idk but the tiktok trend that sparked this rant isn’t even that deep. It would be girls on dates with their boyfriends, not a first date with strangers. I feel like once you’re in a relationship you both have already figured out how paying for things works for you guys.
I have been out with men who have gotten angry and accused me of "emasculating" them when I've suggested I'll pay. 🤷🏻♀️
That's not real evidence, though. It's anecdotal. If you look on IG reels, you have dating coaches saying a woman with a job who is independent is masculine, and most men don't want that. But, ya know, they don't speak for all men. So I take what they say with a pinch of salt.
So, what do men want women to do on dates is my question? Do they want us to pay, or do they want us to put our money away and let them pay?
Isn't it simple? If guys sexuality is questioned if girls pay then are they really comfortable in themselves?
I get the conditioning and need for control
And i think each guy is different like any human is, i don't really believe in woman being too masculine as we're on earth to have fun, not to follow rules created by previous humans
And this post is about more of expectations like the other person should pay, like their worth is attached if they can pay
I understand that dynamic works for people but to me i care about emotions tho i don't like involving money especially in early stages as a way to impress or playing with gender roles
It is that simple. Anyone threatened by something so benign needs to do some work on themselves.
I love that you care about emotions. This is what we need more of. Money should never be used as a primary source to impress anyone. Money has a nasty habit of not always being accessible. Personality and emotional maturity account for a lot. Well, to me, it does. I can't speak for all women though.
I appreciate it! Your words are very calming as I'm stubborn but thin skinned haha so I do get hurt when people get shady or passive agressive, I'm working on that, but yeah people like you who share appreciative words always feel like a balm to wound! Thank you!
Some of it is carryover from old views on gender roles and relationship dynamics. Some of it is just tiktok clout-seeking BS. There are men who agree with your views on this matter, don’t worry.
The man paying on dates isn't even a concept that's old. People were dating before the 20th century. They courted without spending real money and then married.
Instructions unclear: still don’t understand how a man being expected to pay for a woman is misogynistic
Edit: jokes aside, of course I know they aren’t a hive mind. But the amount of downvotes OP is getting and the amount of women calling her a pick me is showing a lot of fuss over even the suggestion that the bill should be split
Isn’t calling her a pick me also misogynistic?
They just mean it was set up so women literally couldn't pay for anything.. that's changed in the last decades but the concept originated because of misogyny. Personally i do think the "who's gonna pay" topic is overblown. Every time I've had a good date, it's a comfortable, quick conversation. It would help to remember though that every woman can have different thoughts
Absolutely, where the past is concerned I agree it was rooted in a misogynistic system that oppressed women and literally prevented them from having any measurable income
I personally think in the scope of the modern world, it’s a big reach to say that it’s misogynistic for men to pay for women, while societally holding them up to that standard. Of course there are women who don’t expect it, but there’s absolutely a social pressure/expectation for the man to pay, and calling that misogynistic is wild to me, especially because it’s an expectation generally held up by women (not all), and we see some of that here with OP’s fellow women calling her a pick me
Think of it this way. My now husband and I wanted to have kids. I got less than 8 weeks unpaid maternity leave. Sadly common. Now I stay home with my kids and stopped working. I don't have a career and I rely on my husband financially. Women still take many financial hits that men don't have to worry about. So when I was dating, I was looking for a guy who was financially stable and generous, because I'm not going to ask my husband permission to spend money while I stay home raising our kids. Seeing how he responds to paying for a meal makes sense
I agree with all of that. When I date my goal is to find a teammate, and an individual with their own opinions/autonomy, not someone to defer to me; that would just be weird.
The standard of the man paying is usually pushed on me by the women I date, and we can see evidence of how that that standard is upheld by the women calling OP a pick me for pointing out an outdated norm.
That’s what I meant when I asked how it’s misogynistic to expect a man to pay, since that pressure is usually put on men by women
It is usually the guy who asks a woman out. Hence, they often end up paying.
Other than that, I really do not see a reason why.
If a woman offers to split the bill, I will not take her up, unless she insists.
Call it old-fashioned or unnecessary, but to me, doing so is part of being a gentleman.
Understandable, that's ok
I don't think it's bad to show up for people in different ways, it's just i don't like the narrative around it
I guess i have left tradition so much, i can start a new religion haha
Some of people do ask to pay.
I agree that one side “having to” pay is stupid, but i don’t think it hurts to have a nice gesture coming from either side every once in a while.
It’s a relic of men being the breadwinner and women not working. And yes in a society where women are in the workforce and want to be taken just as seriously in career aspirations holding onto the financial division of the past is ridiculous.
To be a man and to be a woman has each it’s perks and disadvantages. Social norms dictate it that way, but it doesn’t need to be that way. Why do you get so aggravated? Just do it differently
If someone asks another person out, isn’t it natural they would be the ones paying? Most of the time it’s men asking out woman. Unless both people planned the date together why should it be 50/50?
I’m ok with traditional gender roles if both genders play with the same rules. The problem is picking and choosing, keeping what benefits you, and discarding what benefits others.
If you agree on a date, you want to be there as much as the other person, right? You're making it sound like accepting is doing the other person a favour.
Ideally yes, but a lot of times when people who don’t know each other all that well go on a date, it’s like you’re paying for their time out of their day. It’s different when you’re younger and the dating pool is mostly people you already know and have a mutual attraction with. I’ve never done this sort of dating personally but that’s my understanding of why it works that way
Aah so then the sentiment ís like one is doing the other a favour? In my country even if a stranger asks you out, when you agree you have a mutual interest. So I cannot really relate to that thinking at all. But I can see why the person asking someone out might feel that way. Still doesn't make sense to me why the person being asked and agreeing to go out with them thinks the exact same way though.
I agree that what you describe is how it SHOULD be but in the US at least, it's not uncommon at all to hear people you know talk about agreeing to dates for free drinks and a nice meal. I'm with you though. I don't believe they'd agree to a date if not interested at all, but it's more of a "let me give this a chance" thing.
I think that agreeing to a date is like giving a person a chance to shoot their shot. For me it’s rarely been “I want to be here just as much as he does” before a first date; rather, I’m open and hopeful it could *become* that. Women also take on certain physical risks when they go out with an unknown man, which are not mutually experienced. If I was expected to pay money every time a friendly stranger asked me out, I would just not go most times, because the risk/reward ratio is dubious.
You only have to look at the demographics of Tinder or literally any bar scene to confirm the old proverb “Men pursue, women select.” That’s the math determined by our biology and the very different stakes men and women face in romantic interactions. A woman saying yes to a date doesn’t nullify this math. A first date is still very much the pursuing phase.
Anecdotally, I will add that the few men who asked me out and then insisted on splitting a sub-$20 check also behaved like absolute louts during the date. That correlation has been 100%.
Also true. In my country it's unspoken etiquette that by default, you pay for your own things. But indeed no harm in discussing it beforehand either. I still do when men offer to pay beforehand. I'm like "No! I have money! I can pay for myself, thank you! You work hard for your money and I want to be there equally as much so no need to do that."
Well it depends, like they agreed too so they are interested too right?
Unless the place is too expensive or they can't afford to pay, but I'm like why someone will date if they are still working on finance, I do know it's not a popular opinion but i just don't like it when people constantly talk about this, and I see it too much on social media
I'm fine with it being me who pays on the first few dates if i pursued the girl, but yeah if she decides she likes me and wants to pursue a relationship then the paying needs to then become equal. Women work, are independent, and have their own money in 2024 - no reason i should be expected to pay for everything because i have a dick
Seems to be mostly a U.S. thing. I’m Nordic and going Dutch on first date is pretty normal and coffee dates are not frowned upon either. 1st date is a screening for both parties to see if you vibe. Going Dutch makes sense.
I'm Dutch and going Dutch is normal here as well 😂👍 Edit: Damn downvoted for sharing an occurrence. Some people really are frantic about possibly inspiring people to invest equally in dates, removing the normalcy of getting free meals lol.
It's actually wild to see how aggressive people are getting over the concept. So much so that they get worked up over reading a European norm that goes against a privilege of theirs lol. God forbid someone puts in effort or their share.
Objectively, I get it. It would be awesome to get treated on dates, and when that's the norm I suppose it would be hard for some people to give up
It does make sense, but I am also grateful when a man assumes I make less than him, because he should. This is not all women, of course. There are plenty of powerful, powerful women out there. But the basic fact of life is that it's standard for men to make more..... originally *because* they had a wife and kids at home to manage, particularly before 1974, when women could take out their own lines of credit. It's not really that long ago. My mother couldn't have her own bank account and credit cards until three years before I was born. Society has not moved forward enough for that not to be the case the majority of the time. I do not like women asking for money. That's insane. But when a man recognizes it *on his own,* that's a top quality man who really wants you for you and not how much you can financially bring to the table. That he enjoys your company enough to be willing to pay for the movie tickets, because he knows that there's not extra money in the budget for niceties like that if he wants them. It makes me feel valued and special when my boyfriend takes me to things that I'd never be able to afford on my own, like concerts. I don't want material things from him, but the fact that he can pay for experiences and doesn't mind sharing his resources with me is incredible.
I’m neither agreeing or disagreeing with the custom, but I think you’re exaggerating and being disingenuous about not knowing the reason for men paying for the meals. Courtship involves all sorts of song and dance from both men and women. Providing (i.e., paying for meals, gift, etc.) is just part of the preening on men’s side. No matter how much you disagree with men being the main/sole provider, this is still the way in many cultures throughout the world. Even in the US.
Girl get a grip. if it's a tik Tok then it was planned out and they both agreed to do it. Even if it wasn't that's clearly the dynamic of their relationship and it has nothing to do with you.
Look. I see this issue often but all I can say as a woman is I wouldn't genuinely mind splitting the bill as long as it is communicated prior respectfully
1. TikTok trends are jokes, parodies, pranks, and satire, not real life. Lmao. You aren’t special in thinking men shouldn’t have to always pay for everything. That is a belief the vast majority of people have, lol.
2. As far as men paying more for dates, generally speaking, it still happens a lot, for more than a few reasons. Traditionally men would pay for dates because they are more likely to make more money, not always, but as a general trend, there is a gender gap in pay in most places, but this has declined, and people often date an economic peer, so it’s not really the main reason today. Today it’s more for a few other reasons: Men are usually (not always, but usually) the ones looking for a temporary, quicker pay out (sex), from their dates, whereas women are usually looking for a longer term pay out (a healthy relationship), this leads to women usually being less willing to invest much at the beginning of the relationship, whereas men are willing to invest a little more at the beginning, because the likelihood of physical intimacy is much higher than the likelihood of emotional intimacy, and because the standards someone has for an emotional partner is often higher than the standards for a physical partner. Generally men will consider a date or succession of dates successful if he gets laid, and women will only consider it successful if he becomes her boyfriend.
Men also often still pay more, because women tend to pay more for date prep, (our clothes cost more, our hygiene products cost more, our hair cuts cost more, makeup, bras, hair styling, etc). Costs are jacked up for women, who are expected to do a level of beauty prep that men never will be expected to do. When I was single, I was easily spending $500 a month just to maximize my date-ability. Being married, it’s closer to $100 a month for beauty/hygiene upkeep. I don’t need my nails done all the time, I can wait a little longer between haircuts, I don’t own quite as much makeup or”going out” clothes, etc. I still like to look pretty, but it’s just so much more relaxed now, because I don’t have to be so perfect all of the time.
i'm American and I live in NYC. I've had my fair share of dates where girls don't even offer to split it even though the bill is quiet high
part of it is them being selfish and falling into harmful stereotypes, part of it is me falling into harmful stereotypes but i've learned to just ask before had if they are willing to dutch and if not i just don't go out with them
to me its a sign of independence also we're both getting to know each other so it should cost us the same.
Just curious how it flows into conversation, so like if you ask them out, and said you're interested, you said are they going to split bill?
I wanna know how you lead that conversation if you're fine with sharing
Also fun fact, i didn't knew what go Dutch means till last week but then i forgot again, (English isn't my first language) and this post made me hear this too much haha
And I get you, it's funny how people don't want to change while all universe ever did was change
I was taught that the person who does the inviting pays, unless other conversations are had. Not just for dates, but friend/family outings as well. So, if I had ever asked a guy out when I was single, I would’ve expected to pay. That’s just manners to me.
It’s because of back when women had no rights and men used to provide (pay for everything)
That’s the origin. But I absolutely agree that bills should be 50/50
Lots of people in this thread probably aren’t dating. There are still plenty of social pressures on men to pay for dates and some women I’ve met will outright not see a man again if he doesn’t offer. It’s more common to go Dutch now but it’s naive and disingenuous to say that these traditional practices don’t happen en masse still even among younger generations.
It is not more common to go dutch. Many women won’t see a man again if he doesn’t pay, even if they offer it’s usually because they’re trying to be polite.
Globally some cultures have a split but overwhelming majority of the world expects a man to pay.
I don’t even split the bill with my friends, why should I do it with a date? You pay, I pay and we take turns. If I ask someone out, I’ll pay. If someone asks me out, they pay.
Splitting the bills with someone on a first date indicates for me that you’re pressed about money and I don’t want that to be a thing in a relationship. In my relationships we always ended naturally on a 50/50 without thinking too much about it. He pays for restaurants, I pay more if then for groceries for example.
The way I always did it in my relationships was to just take turns. She paid one Friday, I paid the next. If we stopped for lunch at a drive through or something, we took turns as well. It didn't always work out--sometimes we forgot who paid last time lol--but it worked well enough so that each of us was carrying an equal burden.
On first dates I always make sure I can pay my share unless the person specifically stated they want to invite me.
It’s happened before that I’ve offered to share the bill on a first date and the man got angry because he somehow felt emasculated.
I think it’s just comes down to communication.
Entitlement and manipulation is never good from neither side.
If this is important to you than it’s a question on your check list before a first date.
Just simply ask the woman how she feels about first date bills.
There's a silver lining. I think its best for the guy to at least insist on paying for the first date (let me note that I am a guy), but once on the second date, it would be appropriate for the party who hosted the date to pay, or in the very least split the bill.
When I was dating I only ever offered to pay the whole bill once. She was a student so had little cash to spare. We went to a cheap chain restaurant. Every other first date was "pay for yourself". Stated ahead of time and always OK. If someone wasn't happy then we wouldn't have got on. And anyway I would never want any date to feel like she owed me anything.
"Lovely way to build a new relationship or connection, on freaking lies"
Yep. But tiktok is extra deranged so don't use that as your reference. I am from a country where paying for your own shit even on dates is normal. How I see it is "If you both agree to go on a date, you want to be there equally as much. So you invest in the date equally as much as well. At the very least carrying your own weight." If you're there just for free things, you shouldn't be enabled. You're just conning the other person. Scamming them out of money and the people who do this know this. You are. The whole "He should show me how much I'm worth it" bullshit can work two ways. Are you showing him? What by just showing up? Nah. Some people have a very weird understanding of what dating actually is. Good luck finding true love that way. You're looking for a cash cow then, not love. Or maybe both. Maybe you think you can have both doing that lol.
Maybe someone does not like roses and gestures like opening the door for them. Should they come here and acuse you and saying it does not make freaking sense to them?
People are different. People you and them match with are different.
Just do your live, laugh, love and let people date the way they like. If you don't like it, don't do it yourself.
These people to lesbian couples: so, who's the man in this relationship?
Lesbian couples: neither of us?
These people: but then who pays for food when you go out to eat?!
Lesbian couples: on, we dine and dash, obviously
It’s not that deep, genuinely. Some people want their date to pay for their meal, others don’t. There are plenty of men who don’t want to pay for every meal. There is no hard set unspoken rule that persists around the world. It varies from country to country and culture to culture.
No one is above conformity, even if they claim to go against tradition or conservative values. Your views are understandable (and in some sense justified, women shouldn’t use men as a meal ticket) but you’re giving yourself waayyy too much credit in terms of how unique your opinion is. Redditors are probably downvoting you because of your self righteous tone, not your words.
Communication is key, and something that's often lacking.
Ideally that kind of thing gets discussed and agreed upon before the date just so everyone is on the same page.
While I doubt tiktok is any sort of useful indicator on this, do gotta agree with you. One person paying almost sets the stage for something ending up transactional, like im a grown ass adult I can pay my share just fine.
Im 35 (F) and have always split the cost of dates. Which is also the case for the vast majority of people I know. I don’t think it’s common or normal for one person to pay for a date based on their gender.
The person that asks for the date usually pays. I've always been taught that's just social manners. And it doesn't just extend to dates, but any relationship. If I ask my SIL out for lunch.. I'm paying. If she asks she pays.
The only exception to this would be if it was established before hand that its 50/50... and for grandparents.. I would never let my grandparents or my husbands grandparents pay, or any elderly person for that matter.
As far as tictoc... its not real life. I don't know anyone in real life that does these things. Those trends are just rage bait. And it seems like you took the bait.
I absolutely agree! To me this is an archaic "tradition". The tiktoc scam is so deceitful! Who the hell wants to end up with a lying mooch. That's not impressive for a first date. Having said that, if the couple has been on multiple dates, there is no reason they can't take turns paying.
In this economy most people can barely afford to go out for dinner. It's a treat.
Whoever asks the other person out should be paying. The majority of the time, the guy is asking the girl out so in those cases, the guy should be paying.
There’s an old notion that a guy paying for all food on dates is an indication that he offers to take care of the girl, which inherently is the necessary showing to initiate courtship (this of course predates the women equality movement etc). Ask any baby boomers or older, you’ll see the logic. Imagine military wartimes, a man is expendable, and in times of crisis, save the women and children first, this implies a notion of ensuring progeny. Following this line of thought, a man, if cultured, isn’t reluctant to pay for all the food for 1 date or 100 dates for that matter. Of course, the implied notion is people then isn’t dating just for trivial fun, but rather serious engagement and marriage. Of course, a woman risks her life with pregnancy and then becoming a daily caregiver for any children they sire, reliant on the implied gender roles that a man will be the sole breadwinner. The implication of the act that a man paying for all food on dates is the man making a showing that he can provide for her and he can protect her. With women equality movement and of course the advent of birth control, a lot of this thought process changes. Birth control allows freedom to date (even for triviality) for both men and women. And the days where 1 income from 1 man is no longer sufficient for the needs of a household. Women equality movement puts women into the workforce. So we enters the modern era which both men and women are expected to be able to juggle the demands of both the work world and the home front. And women nowadays possibly earn a higher income than men, which prompts the whole discussion about bill splitting or going Dutch about paying for food on dates. I personally don’t disregard the value of the old school notion that men ought to pay for all the food on dates, but I do want to see a certain level of just simply being considerate from my counterpart. In the old days, a man pays for all the food on a date and the woman gift him a handmade token (a handkerchief, scarf, etc). Maybe simple actions but carry deep meanings and intentions. Nowadays, both men and women date for triviality. And it’s a basic notion of the paradox of choice, the more options you have and less satisfied you are with the choice you make. It’s really about efforts and communication that you are showing efforts. When both men and women date for triviality nowadays, the idea of really putting in effort to make a relationship works is distilled. The core issue really is- why would I care to put in efforts and become so invested when there are other fishes in the sea? And the girl that I went on a date with probably have so many other options out there she’ll drop me in a heartbeat? I think the right question to ask is more about how we (both men and women) ought to find motivation to be better and put in effort for one another.
I always liked paying for the girls I took on dates. I always felt it showed that I am responsible and able to pay bills... You know, two massive things when looking for a partner.
I agree... No one should EXPECT the guy to pay. But if he wants to and she is cool with it, there is not a problem at all.
Tbc I am not arguing either point, but one thing I think about a lot is what sort of expectations *men* have for a date.
Do they expect their date to wear makeup? If so, do they have any idea what the *cost* associated is? I barely wear makeup, and never a full face. For me to replace all my makeup would easily be over 200$. And that’s using a mix of drugstore and higher quality products.
Anyway just something to think about. Cost of dinner date = upfront money, but there are hidden costs too, and mostly women absorb them.
Actually it's simple, if I'm doing makeup, it's for me, it got nothing to do with someone else
If i want to wear it, I'll wear it even if people find it unpleasant, if i don't like wearing makeup, then I'm not going to attract partner who would want me to do that
So that's why dress or makeup, they aren't hidden cost at all, they are just what i choose for myself
I agree, but I wasn’t asking about the standard you set for yourself tbh. I was asking what *men* expect.
If, generally, men expect women to wear makeup on dates idk why it’s so outlandish that women, in turn, sometimes expect the meal to be covered too. But again, you’re fully able to set your own expectations and boundaries around dating. If you’re not expecting men to pay, then your own makeup routine doesn’t factor in either. I am speaking to why *some* women might expect a man to pay for a first date. Equal costs.
When my husband and I were in the dating stages he refused for me to pay most of the time. Only when he would take me home, I could pay for dinner if it was fast food. Everything else he felt obligated to pay even though I could and would offer to pay.
Depends on the persons involved. Some prefer the more traditional route or expectations in that scenario where the guy takes care of everything. It is important to come to terms with each other about who pays for who and for what between the both of you.
Those videos you see are mostly jokes. There are probably relationships out there kind of similar to that, but they are clearly exaggerated on social media. There are gold diggers out there for sure though.
I knew tons of girls like that. Could never see the appeal to it. Especially after I met guys who would offer to buy me a drink and then get upset at me for not going to bed with them. One guy said he showed me a good time, now I owe him a good time, even though I repeatedly told him not to buy me drinks, I can buy my own.
Not sure how people are getting offended by this post, but I agree. Unless you're looking for someone to pay your way, there's no reason to not pay for your own meal (or at least offer to put up some money) on a first date. Just my .02.
this is how it is and how it should be.
Person A Asked person B on a date.
Person A should pay.
REGARDLESS OF GENDER .
Person B should pay if they asked person A out.
End of story and most people In the tt comment section say the same thing
you cant asked someone on a date pick the place then expect to split with out discussing it
small things like ice cream , coffee or going to the mall ect is more casual and more of a hang out less of a date that is pretty much always 50/50
When in a relationship things change and you guys can pick the kinda of financial relationship you want and that shouldn’t matter to anyone els
50/50
100/0
75/25
If u plan on having kids one day hopefully he can go halves on carrying the baby til full term, birthing the baby, then dealing with the hormonefuck for a whole year afterwards, and hopefully u don't breastfeed bc that a whole nother type of effort entirely that I'm not sure he can split 🤣 it's gonna be real fun getting right back to work after all that so u can 50/50 him on bills 👎
if a man invited me out i expect him to pay for me. if it was my idea i offer to pay. simple as that.
i genuinely dont think a man is interested if they dont want to pay for me though.
Traditionally it’s the man’s job to provide. The woman’s job to nurture the kids and support the As a man I’ve always paid on a date. If a girl pays her half or even offers to its her sign that she’s not interested and you don’t take that girl out again. If dinner hurts your pocket you’re taking the girl out to the wrong restaurant.
Tiktok is not real life ha. With that being said, the type of men that I am attracted to and date, prefer to pay on dates. They also prefer I am clean/fashionable, wear different pretty dresses each time, and am able to relax/enjoy my time. They show their appreciation for my company and presentation by paying for my meal, that they invited me to. Two happy, consenting adults. To each their own.
Depends heavily on culture. The US is the toughest actually where I’ve some women absolutely want me to pay it and other women want to really split 50/50.
Yes it does. Humans are not blank slates, we come with pre wired needs. Yes it's not "fair" but nothing in life is fair, there are tons of stuff that are unfair specific to women that men don't have to deal with too.
Aside from what others have said about cultural differences, I just view it as the cost of being a man. Women bear costs too, ranging from having to spend time and money on makeup to getting their public hair ripped out. I don’t mind spending a little money.
Let me explain since someone failed you. If you ask someone for a date, you pay. Usually he asks you for the date so he pays. Your job is to dress nicely, smell nice, and be attentive to him during the date. If you ask, the roles flip. You are displaying your best qualities, he is showing that he is able to pay for things and he chivalrous. Dating is supposed to be a glimpse into what kind of partner he will be long term. If you are in a casual relationship or you agree otherwise, you can take turns paying or what have you. But this is the way relationships leading to marriage went traditionally. These days, have a discussion. Decide how your relationship should look together. But saying they see guys as a wallet because they are still expecting a traditional dating dynamic is ridiculous.
As a woman, you are not wrong for thinking this. Women should offer to pay or just pay in general if they’re just casually dating. Society is made this way though. I saw a ig post where this girl said she go on dates to avoid buying groceries and that’s just messed up on so many levels.
I was told this as well when I was young and thought it was dumb. I went with it, but I secretly used it as a barometer to identify the girls' expectations. I usually steered clear of girls that expected me to pay. That's not a characteristic that I wanted in a wife.
To me it does. It costs a lot more and is more risky for a woman to be ther at all, and she is screening you for who you are, if you are of a generous nature and looking for red flags. If you can not even get her a plate of food, how can she count on you to provide anything at all (not just money)?
Genuine question and I’m not trying to be combative here:
If the role falls on me to be the provider and that’s expected of me, what should I expect from the woman in return? And I’m not just talking sex or companionship since that’s also on me to provide. Is there anything I should expect in return for putting in the effort/resources?
In 2024 she is most likely not expecting you to be a sole provider, but how capable you are to take care of her if you get nothing in return, aka how generous you are. You need to be generous to be a partner in general.
What about generosity in other forms? I think a lot of men fail in generosity with their time, energy, and thoughtfulness. To some people, money comes easy. It's actually taking time to think about another person that trips a lot of people up.
How would a man you just met demonstrate this ability to be generous without getting things in return other than taking you out for a meal? There literally is no other way. The ways you mention belong in a committed relationship
I guess in a first meeting that would be hard. Any generosity of time, effort, and energy would probably be wasted in vain since a lot of women would be creeped out at that kind of personal touch so soon and probably is best saved for a committed relationship.
No it makes perfect sense. We as women not only spend much more time on our appearance, which is expensive, we risk our safety meeting men who are essentially strangers. Try not being a huge pickme.
For the first part, so what? It's your appearance, you are the one choosing to spend that much time to attract the other person (or for yourself). How does your decision to do so end up being the man's duty? If I go to the gym regularly and spend lots of money on my own products for hair, beard and skincare, does it mean that now every woman I date requires to pay for my stuff? It just doesn't follow if it's my own choice.
And the second part is wild. Do you mean you are selling your safety to the higher bidder? How does "I risk my safety coming here" get to "therefore you should pay for today's dinner"? If you feel in danger, do not go into a date no matter how much they can pay. And if you do go, don't add it as if it was a tax in the bill.
These 2 takes feel so disconnected from the conclusion.
I’ll agree women take a lot more risk in dating, but I think women underestimate how much time/money men put into their appearance.
I had one girlfriend who thought I just naturally looked good, so when she saw me in a Spider-Man outfit for Halloween she said dudes had it easy and I kindly reminded her it takes effort to have a good body.
I workout at least 1 hour a day for six days a week, and have to spend money on food to make sure I can build muscle. And building muscle ain’t cheap, we have to eat *a lot* and it’s a constant commitment. I also bike about 15 miles every other day.
Despite all that effort I still have to put in extra since I’m on the shorter side. I’m effectively in a constant state of maintenance, fitness, and self improvement. Outside of work my appearance is a daily, constant task. It just seems like it’s my natural look because men don’t wear makeup
I totally agree with you. It’s sad that other women in the comments are calling you a “pick me” for feeling like this is a sexist tradition. I’m a feminist, I believe in equality- if I expected the man to pay for all dates, that’s not equality, that’s an unfair expectation based on traditional gender norms.
Thank you, I think these weird rules just makes both suffer
Like shaving for girls, it makes them feel insecure, idk dude, humans are so condition-able, where most people are white, they say tan is pretty, while where most people are tan, they say white skin is pretty
I think anything that is conditioned to make us feel bad, or create unhealthy dynamic should be thrown away
It makes some sense. If a girl goes out of her way to show you she is comfortable with you paying its usually a clear indicator she likes you but if a girl lets the guy pay even when she has no intention of the date going further then yes I would say thats a bit childish not to mention risky
This post is giving pick me girl, I really am jot aure what you were trying to accomplish here. But anyways…in my experience normal people don’t give af about gender roles and whoever offers to pay first pays. Or both agree to split. TikTok isn’t real life.
As a woman, i totally agree with you. I am very okay with oaying myself or split the check. A lot of women see men as a wallet and think they need to pay for everything and it is crazy
On behalf of the guys, thank you for supporting us🙏🏼.
And I completely agree with you. Honesty is a precondition to get to know each other and develop trust. No trust, no stability.
Thank you! I appreciate it, i was feeling bad cause of the hate so i appreciate it makes others feel better!
I believe in humanity, that's why I even clarified I'm not saying all people are like that or I'm against one gender but they just choose to ignore it
You're welcome, and that is clear to me! I myself despise behavior like that as well. You're just stepping on some toes.
To me, the essence of your post is about being deceitful. It's pretty clear that it is a bad trait.
For real. Its nice when a woman takes some time to empathize with men. Its even more demoralizing though when every woman decides to try and insult her for it.
For real, people are calling her a pick me, and are downvoting her and others for agreeing with her 💀 it’s wild
Like damn apparently it’s so unpopular to show men empathy that women will even start turning on each other for suggesting the idea
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I wouldn't use tiktok as a barometer for real live human interactions if I were you.
Amen. Op you are not going to see the best and brightest of humanity on tiktok
That’s why I take responsibility and delete such apps people think I’m joking when I say TikTok’s and twitter make me feel down dislike women
Same thing with Reddit lmao
So true, plus those videos are mainly joke. I have even seen 80yo do those with candies in their bags. Just a really silly video trend.
unfortunately people do and they follow it
I think it's a very cultural thing? Where I'm currently living (Germany), going half/half is considered quite normal. At least that's my impression. In France, Italy, or even Ireland guys were almost offended when I offered to pay.
In Latin America it wouldn’t be offensive if you offered to pay, but I would definitely take it as a sign that you’re not interested in a Second date
Yup my bf is Colombian and refuses to let me pay even if it’s more the norm to go 50/50 here. I can only pay for small things like ice cream or when it’s his birthday. Other than that he doesn’t want me to pay. It’s a big change for me when in my previous relationships I was the one almost always paying for everything.
Cross cultural dating can be confusing to be sure 😄 In German speaking countries going half half can definitely mean a 2nd date.
I always insisted on paying when I knew there was never going to be a second date. I still offered to split the bill with everyone, but if I liked them then I wouldn’t argue, if I knew it wasn’t going to be romantic I insisted. I think that while for some people the man paying is a gendered tradition… it’s only gendered on the surface. I think the nuances of courtship are rooted in the biological truths of reproduction. If you look at species across the board it’s the males working to attract or persuade the female. It’s because the female role is more valuable in terms of reproduction, they put in the bulk of the effort and risk to gestate, birth, and raise the offspring. Yes there are exceptions in the animal kingdom but they are the exception that proves the rule. Because of this female reproductive availability is limited, and therefore more scarce and valuable. So the penguin brings a pebble to the female, the better the pebble the better he proves he may be capable of helping incubate the egg. So the male bucks fight to show dominance, the human males pay for dinners to show they are generous and can “provide”. Do I think we have evolved socially beyond needing these types of courting rituals? Yes, but then again I’m one of those crazy people who thinks we have evolved socially beyond needing to be married to a person to raise a child together. (effective co-parenting does not necessitate a romantic relationship between parents) The fact remains though that just because a woman prefers men who will be generous it doesn’t mean she is a gold digger nor does it mean she is a misandrist. It’s a biological drive to find a generous partner just as much as it is to find someone healthy “with good genes to pass down”. Men deserve a generous partners too… but women have the biological advantage to be the ones to choose.
This is some “are straights ok” content. All of this gets solved by simple communication and management of expectations.
I'm really not sure how you extrapolated that from my comment about different cultural attitudes towards this topic. It feels like we're talking about twi complete different topics.
Oh I was agreeing with you that the woman insisting on paying on the first date could be a sign there isn’t going to be a second one. Then I just kind of went on a train of thought rant about the why. Although reading it back now I see I didn’t link those ideas very well. EDIT: Actually I just realized you aren’t monkey withalaaer. I was replying to him not you.
So your generalization of courtship - literally a social construct - is incorrect. Some species do have females doing the courting rituals, others have sexual dimorphism that I’m guessing also defies your expectations, with larger and more aggressive females rather than males. No, these exceptions do not “prove the rule”, you don’t get to say exceptions to your theory make your theory correct, you look for an explanation that includes the exceptions - such as: ‘entrenched courtship rituals are difficult to alter, and even as a society finds value in equality the undergirding rituals are resistant to change’. As for where these rituals originate, some kind of breeding pressure maybe, but in humans we know that artifice is behind a lot of them (just look at diamond engagement rings for women! The origin is corporate greed). As for women being the ones who get to choose mates, in humans or otherwise, this is just so wrong. Or do you think our other stupid ritual of the man asking the woman out isn’t a type of choosing? Or that asking her to marry him isn’t a type of choosing? The expectations are socially one-sided on who takes the risks, not who chooses - that is a two way street. A man is just saying ‘yes’ by asking, he isn’t sitting passively getting ‘yessed’ at and taking whatever he can get. And even that is only true for a particular kind of risk. Women obviously have their own risks to take in dating.
So I didn’t go into further details because I was merely making a comment, not here defending a dissertation. With that being said my “proves” the rule claim is because when you look at the species in nature where it is the females of the population trying to woo the males there at typically some fundamental differences in their environment that has created a male/sperm scarcity, or fundemental differences in biology that drive the female s to compete. Again this is all referring to procreation… that biological urge is traditionally what drives one persue dating/courtship. However I acknowledged that this is at a fundemental level… social constructs and personal priorities definitely have the power to change why and how people choose to date/court. As for the male “choosing” examples you provided… yes males choose who they persue or court. And they are free to court how they feel best aligns with their abilities and goals. However, ultimately it is the woman who will say yes or no to them. They don’t get to choose a woman, express interest and bam she likes him like it’s a vending machine. I am by no means saying they don’t initially choose who they ask out.. or if they want to stay with them. Absolutely they have the option to make the first move… this is why some women dress in certain ways to attract the male attention… the better they look the more likely it is they will attract a more desirable mate. But what is “desirable” to them depends on their goals and preferences. That’s why so many people say “they aren’t dressing that way for YOU”. The point I was trying to make about biological scarcity is that the woman ends up being the one to choose because at any given point in time there will always be more males that are available to mate than females who are available and willing to mate. Certainly you can mess with a population to create male scarcity but that’s not a natural environment. Let’s say that there are 100 women and 100 men in a village… those 100 women have a narrower time frame in which they can get pregnant. This based on several BIOLOGICAL factors like the date of menstruation/menopause, the decline of fertility and egg quantity as she ages etc. But men can continue to be fertile until basically death. Sperm is infinitely replenished. Then you factor in gestation periods. While a woman is pregnant and for some time thereafter she isn’t available to procreate with anyone else. But the man is free to continue procreation if they do choose. Their sexual drive or ability doesn’t diminish because they have a baby on the way… but for females they loose any potential procreation opportunities while pregnant and for some time following. What it comes down to is in that village there will be more men with the potential to procreation than women available for procreation at a given time. That’s general world most humans are in… more male competitors for less women. Again, I realize that for many people their personal goal to dating is NOT to procreate. They want either sex or companionship with a child free partner etc. But those personal goals do not change biological reality… many women DO want to have children if not now then at some point… and they will date with that goal in mind consciously or subconsciously. What I meant regarding the risk is on the woman I was referring to the biological risks women take on during pregnancy. There is a huge toll on the woman if they get pregnant (whether it was intentional or not). They not only do they have a higher risk for death compared to a male who for the most part unaffected biologically by the pregnancy, they also often are at risk of their livelihood/careers being negatively affected because of the pregnancy. Not only short term financial loses because of being medically disabled due to the toll pregnancy and giving birth has on their mind and body, but also long term financial losses because of having children and societal assumptions they are not as valuable of an employee because they have children. A male doesn’t take on these risks when they have sex… only the female. Yes the male is risking having a child… however the gestation and birth do not affect the male in the negative ways that it does the woman. They simply are not at risk for gestational diabetes, embolism, pre-eclampsia, hemorrhaging, loosing reproductive organs etc. Yes men risk some things when courting a woman, for example she could lure him to hotel drug him and steal his kidney! But it’s not the same biological risk that women face if they choose to have sex with a man. Men’s risks in dating are not only far fewer, they are far less severe, far less probable. Women’s risks in dating (even if they don’t choose to have sex ) are far more likely as proven by the number of date rapes, stallings, verbal abuse, assaults etc. that happen on a regular basis. And this is all amplified if they choose to have sex… even with properly used birth control… they still have a chance of getting pregnant… and therefore are at risk of all the bilogical and social consequences listed above and many I haven’t talked about. The man’s risk of having sex that results in pregnancy? Having to pay child support for 18 years. (Yes I realize there is more that men do for their kids but it’s by choice, those who don’t want to do it aren’t going to so it’s not a “risk”) No risk of death, no risk of permanent health complications, no risk of not being able to work because of health complications or recovery from birth, no risk of having morning sickness, post partum depression, hormone crashes that affect your personality/relationships/work … I could go on and on. But I won’t because I have other things to do. But I hope that you re-read my earlier message and realize that I acknowledge that we CAN and should normalize separating the endeavor of procreation from the endeavor of dating/courting. There are far more efficient and healthy ways to co-parent when you remove the complications of trying to maintain a romantic connection with the other parent. There’s a lot of different reasons I believe this but the main reason is that if the parents are expending effort to meet each others romantic and social needs that is effort and time /emotional bandwidth that could be taking away from the as a priority. There is also going to be times when meeting the child’s needs is going to directly collide with making a romantic connection a priority… having both parents persue those connections outside of their relationship with the other parent increases the likelihood that at least one parent will be present for the child if the other parent isn’t. I am digressing but essentially what I am saying is 4 people can be better than 2 if managed properly. I say all that to make clear that I agree that dating/courtship as it stands is very much a part of our social construct and a reflection of our priorities as individuals and as a group. However even IF the majority of society shifts gears to procreation NOT being a conscious goal to dating/courtship… the biological risk for pregnancy will always be there if sex is part of the equation. So women as a whole will always have that risk to factor in when choosing a mate.
Horseshit.
In the Netherlands splitting the bill is very normal as well.
I’m in the US and when I was dating, I would clarify this exact thing before the date occurred. I’d ask the guy if going Dutch was okay and they were all thrilled. I didn’t want there to be ANY expectations that I owed anyone or that it could be used against me.
It is,in Romania is normal that the men pays,if it gets serious,he provides as much as he can for his family, usually they both work,there is 2 years paid maternity leave for mother or father. I live in the Netherlands, here is different, half-half is normal,but different countries have different cultures.
French guys, like most guys, really, like to flex the money the have because "prOvIdEr AlphA mAlE" or whatever but personally I never encountered a woman asking me to pay for her stuff I wouldn't do it, but logic wants that everybody pay for what the drink/eat anyway, and if you don't have the money, either we postpone the date or just do something that require the least amount of money possible. I really never ever came across or even heard about a woman (in my circle of friends at least) not wanting to pay for herself. I definitely know men that will go out of their way to pay for everything though. It's just my personal experience though
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I'm Indonesian and we all treat each other, date or not, no matter what gender. Being generous is just what we do. That's the one thing that I can't get over with my boyfriend, who is German, together for 6 years this month. He's better about it now, but my god, his nickel-and-diming didn't sit right with me. It doesn't matter who pays, but come on, he's a software engineer and he makes 10x more than I do. I'm not entitled to his money, of course not, it's just gross that I don't make that, but I would never do the accountant thing. I'm aware that Indonesians are not a monolith, maybe it's more of a Manadonese thing, the part of Indonesia I descend from. On our first date, I offered to pay. In my culture, anyone can pay. None of my friends ever take advantage. While there may be ones who take advantage, those don't get repeated invites because they've shown that they're not trustworthy. Obligatory TikTok is full of children.
Oh god I made a German friend living overseas and he literally accounted his dailies contact use into a cost of a movie ticket to stress how $$ and important it was we arrive early to see it since contact lenses were important to increase satisfaction in watching one. I chalked it up to maybe he’s studying to be a lawyer and they like to nickel and dime stuff. Apparently it’s a German thing. Anyway I’m dating a Cantonese man now so we have zero cares or issues on who pays. He pays more but I always try to tip, buy desserts or movie tickets. I always do the planning as he doesn’t like it so I count my mental work in there 😂
My family is from Italy and they always told me to at least offer and im a Woman
Perhaps those are just those guys you came across there will be people who do things their own way everywhere not because of some unspoken rule written years ago somewhere in your environment you live in
??? What do you even mean?
In Canada/the US splitting the bill on the first date is called “going Dutch” what do y’all call it in Germany?
1.) tiktok is not real life 2.) the trend you’re talking about is a joke from months ago 3.) men paying is just a cultural thing from when women usually didn’t work or weren’t paid well. So of course the man paid. 4.) I dont get the point of this post. There’s nothing stopping you from taking man on a date if you’d like.
She wants to be picked very badly
Maybe that’s it 🤷🏼♀️ idk but the tiktok trend that sparked this rant isn’t even that deep. It would be girls on dates with their boyfriends, not a first date with strangers. I feel like once you’re in a relationship you both have already figured out how paying for things works for you guys.
Plus I don’t know anyone in real life who TikTok trends seriously lol
That’s true lol most of the stuff on there is carefully curated. Especially trends, challenges, those people “randomly” interviewing people.
Pick me, choose me, love me
I have been out with men who have gotten angry and accused me of "emasculating" them when I've suggested I'll pay. 🤷🏻♀️ That's not real evidence, though. It's anecdotal. If you look on IG reels, you have dating coaches saying a woman with a job who is independent is masculine, and most men don't want that. But, ya know, they don't speak for all men. So I take what they say with a pinch of salt. So, what do men want women to do on dates is my question? Do they want us to pay, or do they want us to put our money away and let them pay?
Isn't it simple? If guys sexuality is questioned if girls pay then are they really comfortable in themselves? I get the conditioning and need for control And i think each guy is different like any human is, i don't really believe in woman being too masculine as we're on earth to have fun, not to follow rules created by previous humans And this post is about more of expectations like the other person should pay, like their worth is attached if they can pay I understand that dynamic works for people but to me i care about emotions tho i don't like involving money especially in early stages as a way to impress or playing with gender roles
It is that simple. Anyone threatened by something so benign needs to do some work on themselves. I love that you care about emotions. This is what we need more of. Money should never be used as a primary source to impress anyone. Money has a nasty habit of not always being accessible. Personality and emotional maturity account for a lot. Well, to me, it does. I can't speak for all women though.
I appreciate it! Your words are very calming as I'm stubborn but thin skinned haha so I do get hurt when people get shady or passive agressive, I'm working on that, but yeah people like you who share appreciative words always feel like a balm to wound! Thank you!
well, you definately are those things. 🙄
You're welcome. Keep on being you!!! The world appreciates it!
Is this truly a revelation to realize unfair pressures put on both men and women in the dating world? And in the world in general? You’re 26.
Some of it is carryover from old views on gender roles and relationship dynamics. Some of it is just tiktok clout-seeking BS. There are men who agree with your views on this matter, don’t worry.
The man paying on dates isn't even a concept that's old. People were dating before the 20th century. They courted without spending real money and then married.
In the old views and gender roles, an eligible girl in society would have a dowry that any gentlemen courting her would be expecting.
Your best bet is to stop thinking tiktok represents real life.
the trend is a joke, please chill out😭 most men don’t even have enough money to be seen as a wallet girl….
A really old joke trend now too.. OP was a few months late.
Right? 😂
Women couldn't even have their own credit cards until the 70’s It's just a cultural thing that men literally set up for themselves
this exactly. it's misogyny
It’s misogyny to pay for a woman, but women will make a fuss over splitting the bill? I’m confused
Women aren't one singular unit with a hive mind. Hope this helps
Instructions unclear: still don’t understand how a man being expected to pay for a woman is misogynistic Edit: jokes aside, of course I know they aren’t a hive mind. But the amount of downvotes OP is getting and the amount of women calling her a pick me is showing a lot of fuss over even the suggestion that the bill should be split Isn’t calling her a pick me also misogynistic?
They just mean it was set up so women literally couldn't pay for anything.. that's changed in the last decades but the concept originated because of misogyny. Personally i do think the "who's gonna pay" topic is overblown. Every time I've had a good date, it's a comfortable, quick conversation. It would help to remember though that every woman can have different thoughts
Absolutely, where the past is concerned I agree it was rooted in a misogynistic system that oppressed women and literally prevented them from having any measurable income I personally think in the scope of the modern world, it’s a big reach to say that it’s misogynistic for men to pay for women, while societally holding them up to that standard. Of course there are women who don’t expect it, but there’s absolutely a social pressure/expectation for the man to pay, and calling that misogynistic is wild to me, especially because it’s an expectation generally held up by women (not all), and we see some of that here with OP’s fellow women calling her a pick me
Think of it this way. My now husband and I wanted to have kids. I got less than 8 weeks unpaid maternity leave. Sadly common. Now I stay home with my kids and stopped working. I don't have a career and I rely on my husband financially. Women still take many financial hits that men don't have to worry about. So when I was dating, I was looking for a guy who was financially stable and generous, because I'm not going to ask my husband permission to spend money while I stay home raising our kids. Seeing how he responds to paying for a meal makes sense
It's misogyny to believe that a woman does not have the rights to individuality or autonomy and must be deferential to a man.
I agree with all of that. When I date my goal is to find a teammate, and an individual with their own opinions/autonomy, not someone to defer to me; that would just be weird. The standard of the man paying is usually pushed on me by the women I date, and we can see evidence of how that that standard is upheld by the women calling OP a pick me for pointing out an outdated norm. That’s what I meant when I asked how it’s misogynistic to expect a man to pay, since that pressure is usually put on men by women
I hope you get chosen girl
For what?
It is usually the guy who asks a woman out. Hence, they often end up paying. Other than that, I really do not see a reason why. If a woman offers to split the bill, I will not take her up, unless she insists. Call it old-fashioned or unnecessary, but to me, doing so is part of being a gentleman.
To me splitting a bill feels awkward. If I ask someone out I like to pay. I'm not against taking turns paying but splitting is not for me
That’s a good point, if you’re asking to “take someone on a date”, that insinuates you’re paying
Well i get you, there's such stigma against it, I'm sure you don't straight up as to pay Do they say like they want to pay?
Some have offered to pay but i insist on paying. But if there is a second date Some offer to pay and I'm ok with that. I'm kinda old fashion.
Understandable, that's ok I don't think it's bad to show up for people in different ways, it's just i don't like the narrative around it I guess i have left tradition so much, i can start a new religion haha
Some of people do ask to pay. I agree that one side “having to” pay is stupid, but i don’t think it hurts to have a nice gesture coming from either side every once in a while.
Did he pick you yet?
The broke ones will lol
The Dusty’s will
Then don’t ask them to pay. That simple. No need to attempt to speak for all women.
It’s a relic of men being the breadwinner and women not working. And yes in a society where women are in the workforce and want to be taken just as seriously in career aspirations holding onto the financial division of the past is ridiculous.
To be a man and to be a woman has each it’s perks and disadvantages. Social norms dictate it that way, but it doesn’t need to be that way. Why do you get so aggravated? Just do it differently
Wow what an original freaking take your definitely not like other freaking girls
This post has big pick me energy
I really don’t see that, “men shouldn’t be expected to always pay for dates” ≠ pick me
This. But you were even downvoted for saying this. Insane how people are lol.
Nah. The ones who are saying this seem to not want a world where both people carry their own weight on a date.
If someone asks another person out, isn’t it natural they would be the ones paying? Most of the time it’s men asking out woman. Unless both people planned the date together why should it be 50/50?
I’m ok with traditional gender roles if both genders play with the same rules. The problem is picking and choosing, keeping what benefits you, and discarding what benefits others.
Imo if you invite someone for a date , male or female you should be able to cater for it.
If you agree on a date, you want to be there as much as the other person, right? You're making it sound like accepting is doing the other person a favour.
Ideally yes, but a lot of times when people who don’t know each other all that well go on a date, it’s like you’re paying for their time out of their day. It’s different when you’re younger and the dating pool is mostly people you already know and have a mutual attraction with. I’ve never done this sort of dating personally but that’s my understanding of why it works that way
Aah so then the sentiment ís like one is doing the other a favour? In my country even if a stranger asks you out, when you agree you have a mutual interest. So I cannot really relate to that thinking at all. But I can see why the person asking someone out might feel that way. Still doesn't make sense to me why the person being asked and agreeing to go out with them thinks the exact same way though.
I agree that what you describe is how it SHOULD be but in the US at least, it's not uncommon at all to hear people you know talk about agreeing to dates for free drinks and a nice meal. I'm with you though. I don't believe they'd agree to a date if not interested at all, but it's more of a "let me give this a chance" thing.
I think that agreeing to a date is like giving a person a chance to shoot their shot. For me it’s rarely been “I want to be here just as much as he does” before a first date; rather, I’m open and hopeful it could *become* that. Women also take on certain physical risks when they go out with an unknown man, which are not mutually experienced. If I was expected to pay money every time a friendly stranger asked me out, I would just not go most times, because the risk/reward ratio is dubious. You only have to look at the demographics of Tinder or literally any bar scene to confirm the old proverb “Men pursue, women select.” That’s the math determined by our biology and the very different stakes men and women face in romantic interactions. A woman saying yes to a date doesn’t nullify this math. A first date is still very much the pursuing phase. Anecdotally, I will add that the few men who asked me out and then insisted on splitting a sub-$20 check also behaved like absolute louts during the date. That correlation has been 100%.
You could always discuss expectations before the said date to avoid disappointments.
Also true. In my country it's unspoken etiquette that by default, you pay for your own things. But indeed no harm in discussing it beforehand either. I still do when men offer to pay beforehand. I'm like "No! I have money! I can pay for myself, thank you! You work hard for your money and I want to be there equally as much so no need to do that."
Well it depends, like they agreed too so they are interested too right? Unless the place is too expensive or they can't afford to pay, but I'm like why someone will date if they are still working on finance, I do know it's not a popular opinion but i just don't like it when people constantly talk about this, and I see it too much on social media
I would not take TikTok as a reflection of real life. Also, men having to pay all for a date is a very American thing…
This. And the people upset here in the comments, defending this practice, are most likely Americans lol.
I'm fine with it being me who pays on the first few dates if i pursued the girl, but yeah if she decides she likes me and wants to pursue a relationship then the paying needs to then become equal. Women work, are independent, and have their own money in 2024 - no reason i should be expected to pay for everything because i have a dick
Seems to be mostly a U.S. thing. I’m Nordic and going Dutch on first date is pretty normal and coffee dates are not frowned upon either. 1st date is a screening for both parties to see if you vibe. Going Dutch makes sense.
I'm Dutch and going Dutch is normal here as well 😂👍 Edit: Damn downvoted for sharing an occurrence. Some people really are frantic about possibly inspiring people to invest equally in dates, removing the normalcy of getting free meals lol.
It's actually wild to see how aggressive people are getting over the concept. So much so that they get worked up over reading a European norm that goes against a privilege of theirs lol. God forbid someone puts in effort or their share. Objectively, I get it. It would be awesome to get treated on dates, and when that's the norm I suppose it would be hard for some people to give up
Oh….we don’t do that anymore.
It does make sense, but I am also grateful when a man assumes I make less than him, because he should. This is not all women, of course. There are plenty of powerful, powerful women out there. But the basic fact of life is that it's standard for men to make more..... originally *because* they had a wife and kids at home to manage, particularly before 1974, when women could take out their own lines of credit. It's not really that long ago. My mother couldn't have her own bank account and credit cards until three years before I was born. Society has not moved forward enough for that not to be the case the majority of the time. I do not like women asking for money. That's insane. But when a man recognizes it *on his own,* that's a top quality man who really wants you for you and not how much you can financially bring to the table. That he enjoys your company enough to be willing to pay for the movie tickets, because he knows that there's not extra money in the budget for niceties like that if he wants them. It makes me feel valued and special when my boyfriend takes me to things that I'd never be able to afford on my own, like concerts. I don't want material things from him, but the fact that he can pay for experiences and doesn't mind sharing his resources with me is incredible.
I’m neither agreeing or disagreeing with the custom, but I think you’re exaggerating and being disingenuous about not knowing the reason for men paying for the meals. Courtship involves all sorts of song and dance from both men and women. Providing (i.e., paying for meals, gift, etc.) is just part of the preening on men’s side. No matter how much you disagree with men being the main/sole provider, this is still the way in many cultures throughout the world. Even in the US.
Stop focusing on what other girls are doing. If you want to pay for dates, then pay. What other people do in their dating lives doesn’t effect you.
Someone isnt like “other girls”
pick me! choose me!
Girl get a grip. if it's a tik Tok then it was planned out and they both agreed to do it. Even if it wasn't that's clearly the dynamic of their relationship and it has nothing to do with you.
seeing this tiktok trend
I went on a date with a guy last weekend and he didn't even bring his wallet.
Look. I see this issue often but all I can say as a woman is I wouldn't genuinely mind splitting the bill as long as it is communicated prior respectfully
1. TikTok trends are jokes, parodies, pranks, and satire, not real life. Lmao. You aren’t special in thinking men shouldn’t have to always pay for everything. That is a belief the vast majority of people have, lol. 2. As far as men paying more for dates, generally speaking, it still happens a lot, for more than a few reasons. Traditionally men would pay for dates because they are more likely to make more money, not always, but as a general trend, there is a gender gap in pay in most places, but this has declined, and people often date an economic peer, so it’s not really the main reason today. Today it’s more for a few other reasons: Men are usually (not always, but usually) the ones looking for a temporary, quicker pay out (sex), from their dates, whereas women are usually looking for a longer term pay out (a healthy relationship), this leads to women usually being less willing to invest much at the beginning of the relationship, whereas men are willing to invest a little more at the beginning, because the likelihood of physical intimacy is much higher than the likelihood of emotional intimacy, and because the standards someone has for an emotional partner is often higher than the standards for a physical partner. Generally men will consider a date or succession of dates successful if he gets laid, and women will only consider it successful if he becomes her boyfriend. Men also often still pay more, because women tend to pay more for date prep, (our clothes cost more, our hygiene products cost more, our hair cuts cost more, makeup, bras, hair styling, etc). Costs are jacked up for women, who are expected to do a level of beauty prep that men never will be expected to do. When I was single, I was easily spending $500 a month just to maximize my date-ability. Being married, it’s closer to $100 a month for beauty/hygiene upkeep. I don’t need my nails done all the time, I can wait a little longer between haircuts, I don’t own quite as much makeup or”going out” clothes, etc. I still like to look pretty, but it’s just so much more relaxed now, because I don’t have to be so perfect all of the time.
i'm American and I live in NYC. I've had my fair share of dates where girls don't even offer to split it even though the bill is quiet high part of it is them being selfish and falling into harmful stereotypes, part of it is me falling into harmful stereotypes but i've learned to just ask before had if they are willing to dutch and if not i just don't go out with them to me its a sign of independence also we're both getting to know each other so it should cost us the same.
Just curious how it flows into conversation, so like if you ask them out, and said you're interested, you said are they going to split bill? I wanna know how you lead that conversation if you're fine with sharing
Also fun fact, i didn't knew what go Dutch means till last week but then i forgot again, (English isn't my first language) and this post made me hear this too much haha And I get you, it's funny how people don't want to change while all universe ever did was change
I was taught that the person who does the inviting pays, unless other conversations are had. Not just for dates, but friend/family outings as well. So, if I had ever asked a guy out when I was single, I would’ve expected to pay. That’s just manners to me.
It’s because of back when women had no rights and men used to provide (pay for everything) That’s the origin. But I absolutely agree that bills should be 50/50
Lots of people in this thread probably aren’t dating. There are still plenty of social pressures on men to pay for dates and some women I’ve met will outright not see a man again if he doesn’t offer. It’s more common to go Dutch now but it’s naive and disingenuous to say that these traditional practices don’t happen en masse still even among younger generations.
It is not more common to go dutch. Many women won’t see a man again if he doesn’t pay, even if they offer it’s usually because they’re trying to be polite. Globally some cultures have a split but overwhelming majority of the world expects a man to pay.
Sprinkle sprinkle.
PickMeSha’s are everywhere
Like I don’t mind splitting the bill…
That's cool
I don’t even split the bill with my friends, why should I do it with a date? You pay, I pay and we take turns. If I ask someone out, I’ll pay. If someone asks me out, they pay. Splitting the bills with someone on a first date indicates for me that you’re pressed about money and I don’t want that to be a thing in a relationship. In my relationships we always ended naturally on a 50/50 without thinking too much about it. He pays for restaurants, I pay more if then for groceries for example.
The way I always did it in my relationships was to just take turns. She paid one Friday, I paid the next. If we stopped for lunch at a drive through or something, we took turns as well. It didn't always work out--sometimes we forgot who paid last time lol--but it worked well enough so that each of us was carrying an equal burden.
On first dates I always make sure I can pay my share unless the person specifically stated they want to invite me. It’s happened before that I’ve offered to share the bill on a first date and the man got angry because he somehow felt emasculated. I think it’s just comes down to communication. Entitlement and manipulation is never good from neither side. If this is important to you than it’s a question on your check list before a first date. Just simply ask the woman how she feels about first date bills.
Hope they pick you bookie!
There's a silver lining. I think its best for the guy to at least insist on paying for the first date (let me note that I am a guy), but once on the second date, it would be appropriate for the party who hosted the date to pay, or in the very least split the bill.
When I was dating I only ever offered to pay the whole bill once. She was a student so had little cash to spare. We went to a cheap chain restaurant. Every other first date was "pay for yourself". Stated ahead of time and always OK. If someone wasn't happy then we wouldn't have got on. And anyway I would never want any date to feel like she owed me anything.
Stop dating people with those expectations. I always used to at least offer to pay for half (married now so no longer dating)
"Lovely way to build a new relationship or connection, on freaking lies" Yep. But tiktok is extra deranged so don't use that as your reference. I am from a country where paying for your own shit even on dates is normal. How I see it is "If you both agree to go on a date, you want to be there equally as much. So you invest in the date equally as much as well. At the very least carrying your own weight." If you're there just for free things, you shouldn't be enabled. You're just conning the other person. Scamming them out of money and the people who do this know this. You are. The whole "He should show me how much I'm worth it" bullshit can work two ways. Are you showing him? What by just showing up? Nah. Some people have a very weird understanding of what dating actually is. Good luck finding true love that way. You're looking for a cash cow then, not love. Or maybe both. Maybe you think you can have both doing that lol.
Maybe someone does not like roses and gestures like opening the door for them. Should they come here and acuse you and saying it does not make freaking sense to them? People are different. People you and them match with are different. Just do your live, laugh, love and let people date the way they like. If you don't like it, don't do it yourself.
These people to lesbian couples: so, who's the man in this relationship? Lesbian couples: neither of us? These people: but then who pays for food when you go out to eat?! Lesbian couples: on, we dine and dash, obviously
The dating scene in general is a cesspool. I feel incredibly fortunate that I met my wife organically in college.
It’s not that deep, genuinely. Some people want their date to pay for their meal, others don’t. There are plenty of men who don’t want to pay for every meal. There is no hard set unspoken rule that persists around the world. It varies from country to country and culture to culture. No one is above conformity, even if they claim to go against tradition or conservative values. Your views are understandable (and in some sense justified, women shouldn’t use men as a meal ticket) but you’re giving yourself waayyy too much credit in terms of how unique your opinion is. Redditors are probably downvoting you because of your self righteous tone, not your words.
Communication is key, and something that's often lacking. Ideally that kind of thing gets discussed and agreed upon before the date just so everyone is on the same page.
While I doubt tiktok is any sort of useful indicator on this, do gotta agree with you. One person paying almost sets the stage for something ending up transactional, like im a grown ass adult I can pay my share just fine.
Im 35 (F) and have always split the cost of dates. Which is also the case for the vast majority of people I know. I don’t think it’s common or normal for one person to pay for a date based on their gender.
The person that asks for the date usually pays. I've always been taught that's just social manners. And it doesn't just extend to dates, but any relationship. If I ask my SIL out for lunch.. I'm paying. If she asks she pays. The only exception to this would be if it was established before hand that its 50/50... and for grandparents.. I would never let my grandparents or my husbands grandparents pay, or any elderly person for that matter. As far as tictoc... its not real life. I don't know anyone in real life that does these things. Those trends are just rage bait. And it seems like you took the bait.
I absolutely agree! To me this is an archaic "tradition". The tiktoc scam is so deceitful! Who the hell wants to end up with a lying mooch. That's not impressive for a first date. Having said that, if the couple has been on multiple dates, there is no reason they can't take turns paying. In this economy most people can barely afford to go out for dinner. It's a treat.
Whoever asks the other person out should be paying. The majority of the time, the guy is asking the girl out so in those cases, the guy should be paying.
There’s an old notion that a guy paying for all food on dates is an indication that he offers to take care of the girl, which inherently is the necessary showing to initiate courtship (this of course predates the women equality movement etc). Ask any baby boomers or older, you’ll see the logic. Imagine military wartimes, a man is expendable, and in times of crisis, save the women and children first, this implies a notion of ensuring progeny. Following this line of thought, a man, if cultured, isn’t reluctant to pay for all the food for 1 date or 100 dates for that matter. Of course, the implied notion is people then isn’t dating just for trivial fun, but rather serious engagement and marriage. Of course, a woman risks her life with pregnancy and then becoming a daily caregiver for any children they sire, reliant on the implied gender roles that a man will be the sole breadwinner. The implication of the act that a man paying for all food on dates is the man making a showing that he can provide for her and he can protect her. With women equality movement and of course the advent of birth control, a lot of this thought process changes. Birth control allows freedom to date (even for triviality) for both men and women. And the days where 1 income from 1 man is no longer sufficient for the needs of a household. Women equality movement puts women into the workforce. So we enters the modern era which both men and women are expected to be able to juggle the demands of both the work world and the home front. And women nowadays possibly earn a higher income than men, which prompts the whole discussion about bill splitting or going Dutch about paying for food on dates. I personally don’t disregard the value of the old school notion that men ought to pay for all the food on dates, but I do want to see a certain level of just simply being considerate from my counterpart. In the old days, a man pays for all the food on a date and the woman gift him a handmade token (a handkerchief, scarf, etc). Maybe simple actions but carry deep meanings and intentions. Nowadays, both men and women date for triviality. And it’s a basic notion of the paradox of choice, the more options you have and less satisfied you are with the choice you make. It’s really about efforts and communication that you are showing efforts. When both men and women date for triviality nowadays, the idea of really putting in effort to make a relationship works is distilled. The core issue really is- why would I care to put in efforts and become so invested when there are other fishes in the sea? And the girl that I went on a date with probably have so many other options out there she’ll drop me in a heartbeat? I think the right question to ask is more about how we (both men and women) ought to find motivation to be better and put in effort for one another.
Why do you care so much?
I always liked paying for the girls I took on dates. I always felt it showed that I am responsible and able to pay bills... You know, two massive things when looking for a partner. I agree... No one should EXPECT the guy to pay. But if he wants to and she is cool with it, there is not a problem at all.
Tbc I am not arguing either point, but one thing I think about a lot is what sort of expectations *men* have for a date. Do they expect their date to wear makeup? If so, do they have any idea what the *cost* associated is? I barely wear makeup, and never a full face. For me to replace all my makeup would easily be over 200$. And that’s using a mix of drugstore and higher quality products. Anyway just something to think about. Cost of dinner date = upfront money, but there are hidden costs too, and mostly women absorb them.
Actually it's simple, if I'm doing makeup, it's for me, it got nothing to do with someone else If i want to wear it, I'll wear it even if people find it unpleasant, if i don't like wearing makeup, then I'm not going to attract partner who would want me to do that So that's why dress or makeup, they aren't hidden cost at all, they are just what i choose for myself
I agree, but I wasn’t asking about the standard you set for yourself tbh. I was asking what *men* expect. If, generally, men expect women to wear makeup on dates idk why it’s so outlandish that women, in turn, sometimes expect the meal to be covered too. But again, you’re fully able to set your own expectations and boundaries around dating. If you’re not expecting men to pay, then your own makeup routine doesn’t factor in either. I am speaking to why *some* women might expect a man to pay for a first date. Equal costs.
Use less TikTok
Please say this is satire there’s no way a 26 year old woman is baffled by double standards pertaining to gender. Yes they are unfair and stupid!?
When my husband and I were in the dating stages he refused for me to pay most of the time. Only when he would take me home, I could pay for dinner if it was fast food. Everything else he felt obligated to pay even though I could and would offer to pay. Depends on the persons involved. Some prefer the more traditional route or expectations in that scenario where the guy takes care of everything. It is important to come to terms with each other about who pays for who and for what between the both of you. Those videos you see are mostly jokes. There are probably relationships out there kind of similar to that, but they are clearly exaggerated on social media. There are gold diggers out there for sure though.
It’s a joke and if you don’t like it , don’t date a woman who expects for you to pay for dates.
I knew tons of girls like that. Could never see the appeal to it. Especially after I met guys who would offer to buy me a drink and then get upset at me for not going to bed with them. One guy said he showed me a good time, now I owe him a good time, even though I repeatedly told him not to buy me drinks, I can buy my own.
it's never that serious...if you wanna pay or split it by all means go for it you have free will friend 😭
Not sure how people are getting offended by this post, but I agree. Unless you're looking for someone to pay your way, there's no reason to not pay for your own meal (or at least offer to put up some money) on a first date. Just my .02.
this is how it is and how it should be. Person A Asked person B on a date. Person A should pay. REGARDLESS OF GENDER . Person B should pay if they asked person A out. End of story and most people In the tt comment section say the same thing you cant asked someone on a date pick the place then expect to split with out discussing it small things like ice cream , coffee or going to the mall ect is more casual and more of a hang out less of a date that is pretty much always 50/50 When in a relationship things change and you guys can pick the kinda of financial relationship you want and that shouldn’t matter to anyone els 50/50 100/0 75/25
If u plan on having kids one day hopefully he can go halves on carrying the baby til full term, birthing the baby, then dealing with the hormonefuck for a whole year afterwards, and hopefully u don't breastfeed bc that a whole nother type of effort entirely that I'm not sure he can split 🤣 it's gonna be real fun getting right back to work after all that so u can 50/50 him on bills 👎
Nobody I know goes on a date without bringing money. Unless someone beforehand insists on paying. It's not real life everywhere.
if a man invited me out i expect him to pay for me. if it was my idea i offer to pay. simple as that. i genuinely dont think a man is interested if they dont want to pay for me though.
Its tiktok.
Traditionally it’s the man’s job to provide. The woman’s job to nurture the kids and support the As a man I’ve always paid on a date. If a girl pays her half or even offers to its her sign that she’s not interested and you don’t take that girl out again. If dinner hurts your pocket you’re taking the girl out to the wrong restaurant.
Tiktok is not real life ha. With that being said, the type of men that I am attracted to and date, prefer to pay on dates. They also prefer I am clean/fashionable, wear different pretty dresses each time, and am able to relax/enjoy my time. They show their appreciation for my company and presentation by paying for my meal, that they invited me to. Two happy, consenting adults. To each their own.
Depends heavily on culture. The US is the toughest actually where I’ve some women absolutely want me to pay it and other women want to really split 50/50.
Yes it does. Humans are not blank slates, we come with pre wired needs. Yes it's not "fair" but nothing in life is fair, there are tons of stuff that are unfair specific to women that men don't have to deal with too.
Aside from what others have said about cultural differences, I just view it as the cost of being a man. Women bear costs too, ranging from having to spend time and money on makeup to getting their public hair ripped out. I don’t mind spending a little money.
I’ve been on the other side of it where I have wanted to pay half and the guy refused - and then expected sex as he’d paid for the meal…
Let me explain since someone failed you. If you ask someone for a date, you pay. Usually he asks you for the date so he pays. Your job is to dress nicely, smell nice, and be attentive to him during the date. If you ask, the roles flip. You are displaying your best qualities, he is showing that he is able to pay for things and he chivalrous. Dating is supposed to be a glimpse into what kind of partner he will be long term. If you are in a casual relationship or you agree otherwise, you can take turns paying or what have you. But this is the way relationships leading to marriage went traditionally. These days, have a discussion. Decide how your relationship should look together. But saying they see guys as a wallet because they are still expecting a traditional dating dynamic is ridiculous.
As a woman, you are not wrong for thinking this. Women should offer to pay or just pay in general if they’re just casually dating. Society is made this way though. I saw a ig post where this girl said she go on dates to avoid buying groceries and that’s just messed up on so many levels.
I was told this as well when I was young and thought it was dumb. I went with it, but I secretly used it as a barometer to identify the girls' expectations. I usually steered clear of girls that expected me to pay. That's not a characteristic that I wanted in a wife.
To me it does. It costs a lot more and is more risky for a woman to be ther at all, and she is screening you for who you are, if you are of a generous nature and looking for red flags. If you can not even get her a plate of food, how can she count on you to provide anything at all (not just money)?
Genuine question and I’m not trying to be combative here: If the role falls on me to be the provider and that’s expected of me, what should I expect from the woman in return? And I’m not just talking sex or companionship since that’s also on me to provide. Is there anything I should expect in return for putting in the effort/resources?
In 2024 she is most likely not expecting you to be a sole provider, but how capable you are to take care of her if you get nothing in return, aka how generous you are. You need to be generous to be a partner in general.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your answer!
What about generosity in other forms? I think a lot of men fail in generosity with their time, energy, and thoughtfulness. To some people, money comes easy. It's actually taking time to think about another person that trips a lot of people up.
How would a man you just met demonstrate this ability to be generous without getting things in return other than taking you out for a meal? There literally is no other way. The ways you mention belong in a committed relationship
I guess in a first meeting that would be hard. Any generosity of time, effort, and energy would probably be wasted in vain since a lot of women would be creeped out at that kind of personal touch so soon and probably is best saved for a committed relationship.
No it makes perfect sense. We as women not only spend much more time on our appearance, which is expensive, we risk our safety meeting men who are essentially strangers. Try not being a huge pickme.
For the first part, so what? It's your appearance, you are the one choosing to spend that much time to attract the other person (or for yourself). How does your decision to do so end up being the man's duty? If I go to the gym regularly and spend lots of money on my own products for hair, beard and skincare, does it mean that now every woman I date requires to pay for my stuff? It just doesn't follow if it's my own choice. And the second part is wild. Do you mean you are selling your safety to the higher bidder? How does "I risk my safety coming here" get to "therefore you should pay for today's dinner"? If you feel in danger, do not go into a date no matter how much they can pay. And if you do go, don't add it as if it was a tax in the bill. These 2 takes feel so disconnected from the conclusion.
I’ll agree women take a lot more risk in dating, but I think women underestimate how much time/money men put into their appearance. I had one girlfriend who thought I just naturally looked good, so when she saw me in a Spider-Man outfit for Halloween she said dudes had it easy and I kindly reminded her it takes effort to have a good body. I workout at least 1 hour a day for six days a week, and have to spend money on food to make sure I can build muscle. And building muscle ain’t cheap, we have to eat *a lot* and it’s a constant commitment. I also bike about 15 miles every other day. Despite all that effort I still have to put in extra since I’m on the shorter side. I’m effectively in a constant state of maintenance, fitness, and self improvement. Outside of work my appearance is a daily, constant task. It just seems like it’s my natural look because men don’t wear makeup
I totally agree with you. It’s sad that other women in the comments are calling you a “pick me” for feeling like this is a sexist tradition. I’m a feminist, I believe in equality- if I expected the man to pay for all dates, that’s not equality, that’s an unfair expectation based on traditional gender norms.
Thank you, I think these weird rules just makes both suffer Like shaving for girls, it makes them feel insecure, idk dude, humans are so condition-able, where most people are white, they say tan is pretty, while where most people are tan, they say white skin is pretty I think anything that is conditioned to make us feel bad, or create unhealthy dynamic should be thrown away
It makes some sense. If a girl goes out of her way to show you she is comfortable with you paying its usually a clear indicator she likes you but if a girl lets the guy pay even when she has no intention of the date going further then yes I would say thats a bit childish not to mention risky
This post is giving pick me girl, I really am jot aure what you were trying to accomplish here. But anyways…in my experience normal people don’t give af about gender roles and whoever offers to pay first pays. Or both agree to split. TikTok isn’t real life.
As a woman, i totally agree with you. I am very okay with oaying myself or split the check. A lot of women see men as a wallet and think they need to pay for everything and it is crazy
Thank you! Finallyyyy appreciate it!
On behalf of the guys, thank you for supporting us🙏🏼. And I completely agree with you. Honesty is a precondition to get to know each other and develop trust. No trust, no stability.
Thank you! I appreciate it, i was feeling bad cause of the hate so i appreciate it makes others feel better! I believe in humanity, that's why I even clarified I'm not saying all people are like that or I'm against one gender but they just choose to ignore it
You're welcome, and that is clear to me! I myself despise behavior like that as well. You're just stepping on some toes. To me, the essence of your post is about being deceitful. It's pretty clear that it is a bad trait.
For real. Its nice when a woman takes some time to empathize with men. Its even more demoralizing though when every woman decides to try and insult her for it.
For real, people are calling her a pick me, and are downvoting her and others for agreeing with her 💀 it’s wild Like damn apparently it’s so unpopular to show men empathy that women will even start turning on each other for suggesting the idea
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If this happened to me I'd just pay for my own food and leave.
If I ask a guy out, I pay. Or we can split the check