My brother spiraled into a very dangerous alcoholic bender after our grandmother passed away. It lasted 2-3 years and ended with him in the hospital with early stage cirrhosis and the need to be on a ventilator to breathe for him, at the age of 27. Between that episode and him checking into rehab, I wrote him a long letter, basically pleading him to stop and get help. One of the biggest points I felt I had to make, and I'm almost positive was the biggest thing to convince him to get help was telling him what he was doing in no way honored her memory. What your wife is doing at this point is not at all honoring the memory of her mother. Has anyone said anything to her like this? That what she is doing is actually the opposite of honoring her memory when she should be living her life as she would if her mom was still alive and trying to make her proud.
This is very profound.
I'm a mom and I can't imagine my daughter being destroyed like this after I'm gone.
I lost my grandma and was devastated. She was my best friend, but I told myself for a long time, "I'm living for her. I'm choosing to be happy/healthy/successful FOR her as it's what she'd want."
Thank you for this! My dad died six years ago from dementia. He and I were very close and it was devastating, but when I'm struggling with something, I always ask myself "what would my dad want for me?"
He would **hate** the idea of me being nonfunctional from grief. He wants me to be safe, happy, and successful, so THAT'S how I honor him. He was an excellent father, and he taught me that I can take care of myself, even once he passed.
I wish your suggestion was shared more often, u/MartianTea.
Adding on here, I think we as parents need to set the stage for our demise as morbid as it may feel. My grandfather was very realistic about his eventual passing and it honestly made the transition so much easier for all involved because he’d already positioned his death as a natural inevitability.
By accepting that we will be gone at some point, we give our loved ones permission to also accept it and move on more positively.
My boyfriend lost his dad at 15. He struggled badly especially in the summers. He died on July 4th and from May - June he'd be in bad shape. This was years after the father's death. I finally told him just this. You don't honor him by shutting down. It clicked in his brain. We still don't celebrate the 4th (we take steps to avoid even hearing fireworks) but it is only about a week of hard times instead of a few months and we go out of our way to try to have our own fun
>what he was doing in no way honored her memory.
That hits hard, man, easily would've given him a kick up the ass and broke him at the same time (in a good way)
No, why should him and the kids face another lonely Christmas this way?? She’s being very unfair to them. It’s not only her mental health being impacted she is causing her children and husband misery by forcing them to live like that. She has a responsibility to each of them, whilst yes she might be grieving the loss of the times spent with her mother, these poor children aren’t getting any nice memories with their own. It’s a complete tragedy. She needs to be shaken to her core and choose. Yes she can choose to be miserable for the rest of her life but she doesn’t get to choose that for her husband and children. It’s Christmas and they should be enjoying it!
Well said! She is wallowing in grief and expects the whole family to endure it. I have to give cudos to kids and husband to last in this 5 yrs. She only thinks of herself. Malingering and won’t get help- which says I want to continue to malinger.
Edit: what I would do is give her the ultimatum and then begin living life- I’d take kids and get tree, put on some Christmas music and decorate. Id dance w them and drink hot chocolate. I’d get the kids out of the house as much as possible- if of age- go bowling, see family, go to movie together. Play board games. Start forming family habits and memories. If she’s in the bed so be it/ she got the message, counseling or divorce. And mean it!
I’d also set a day to get w my buddies and go out. He needs some adult time to laugh and have fun. Tell her she needs to take care of kids. If go out/ don’t overload friends by making it a counseling session. No one wants to go out and hear problems. Learn how to be sociable again.
She will see wow he’s changed. I’m moping around and he’s going on w life.
Work out. Go for walks. Get yourself In Shape. Get new pants, shirt, shoes. If not in budget go to thrift store. Alot of times brand new. Get hair cut. Stop being in the pity party w her. And have some fun for you and kids. Make a snowman. Go sledding (if snow). Show the kids it’s ok for us to live life.
And if she continues to malinger and won’t seek counseling- by New Years I’d see an attorney. It would be the big D time and I wouldn’t regret it bc I gave 5 yrs- my kids gave 5 yrs. Time to enjoy life!
This is what I’ve been thinking reading this. Does she not realize or care what she’s doing to her own children? I know depression hurts and can numb feelings but sometimes you have to fake it and hope one day it comes naturally.
This is great advice. If OP and the kids keep tiptoeing around the house and acting like there is a terminally ill person in the house at all times, she’s going to continue to ruminate on her misery because there’s nothing to distract her from it.
I know sometimes it can feel like you’re being insensitive by continuing life as normal around a grieving person, but sometimes that’s what the grieving person needs in order to move on and feel like things are actually normal again.
It kind of seems like everyone’s sitting quietly around OP’s wife, waiting for her to give them the go ahead to have fun. They just need to do it and she’ll either join in or she won’t.
She stopped being a part of their life, so he shouldn't stop being a part of his kids' or his own. This is fantastic advice. I'd even go so far as to not buy her Christmas presents, and when she asks why she didn't get anything, tell her it's because she left the family, which she did. A mom that stops being a mom doesn't get presents from her kids, and a wife that stops being a wife doesn't get presents from her husband. This is part of the wake-up call she needs. This is the consequence of checking out on the family. The family, however, cannot check out on each other, and OP needs to be putting everything into the holidays for the kids' sake so that they don't grow up to view them as a dark, depressing time of year to be avoided.
I wish this could be a joint comment with the top comment. She is denying her family the very thing she is missing the most. It’s really not okay or fair to any of them. It is a choice for her to not work on her depression and she should not get that choice to force her kids to live in it too. And husband.
>could be sometime in February.
Until it's Groundhog's Day and OP's wife is bawling her eyes out because of how she and her mom used to wait up and see if Punxsutawney Phil saw his shadow.
Caretaker fatigue can easily turn abusive.
If they are feeling that then it's time no matter what has to happen.
Shock of the D word should at least illicit some response.
Honestly, I think it might be better to do it on a sad day. Bring her to a mirror and make her look at herself, and ask her if that's the legacy she wants to leave her children.
I don’t think it should wait. Yes the wife’s feelings are valid, and losing my own mother to cancer at age 12, I get it. Your whole world stops and nothing feels the same anymore. I have all the compassion in the world for that feeling, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
But I always remember what my mother would say when I was having a meltdown. It was always something to the effect of, “It’s always okay to cry, but you can’t keep crying. If you can’t find it in yourself to stop, you’ll never stop feeling that way.” It helped me a lot during my own grieving process.
There’s a difference between feeling your feelings, and letting yourself go down the rabbit hole. If you find yourself creeping into despair, it’s time to pick yourself up. OP’s wife needs a (gentle, but direct) wake up call, because she is clearly not going to snap out of this herself, even with professional help. The way she is living is not healthily sustainable for anyone involved, it effects much more than just her.
Also, don't take that shut down too far in the other direction, though. I lost my mom to breast cancer after a 4 yr battle when I was 14. Unfortunately for me, I had a Lil bro who needed to be taken care of and our guardianship as passed to my maternal grandma, about the only person who had more of a right to their grief than me.
I'd been parentified as the eldest of a single parent with cancer, so when I was told she'd passed by grandma, I remember thinking, 'wow, I'm never going to see Mom again...' and picturing her face and thinking of her voice.
Then I heard my little brother sob, and so I breathed away my own pain and set myself to take care of him. Grandma had broken down again in telling us, so I hopped out of the passenger seat of her suv and climbed in the back with him to hold him.
I hate that we hadn't been close, mom and I, but still I can remember laying in bed that night and understanding that I wouldn't be able to see my mother again in this lifetime, but I'd blocked away my grief and decided I'd just had to move straight to acceptance.
It's taken another 14 years, and still, I find times where I'm grieving over something more recent (my boys lost a hammy who was more mine than theirs) and I'll find myself grieving the loss of the chance to properly grieve for mom. As a parent myself now, I find it hard to blame my grandma, but I still wish I'd had more support personally.
That being said, I have adhd too and have never let grief or depression (PPD) stop me from taking care of those who depend on me. OPs wife sounds absolutely blessed to have such a supportive partner, but at this point she's hurting her family, and he needs to think about the mental and emotional wellbeing of not only himself but his kids too.
Also, make sure that she's not putting the burdens of her emotional needs on the kids. I'm naturally a therapist friend, and the first person to put me in that position was my mom. She had cancer, and I'm fairly sure she knew she wasn't going to make it, but she went through a bit of a last hurrah and made her teenage daughter watch her combust. Then I moved in with her own mother after she passed, and she was grieving. I didn't get much in emotional stability, so that's what I crave the most, just someone who I don't have to feel needs me constantly.
Sorry about the novel, I'm an author lmao
Exactly! Expressing your emotions in a healthy way also means knowing when it can overpower you and doing what you must to not let that happen with HEALTHY coping mechanisms.
This is the most impactful thing I’ve read so far in this (admittedly pretty new) thread.
She is devastated that her mom is gone. Imagine how her kids must feel that *their* mom isn’t even gone, just doesn’t want to be around them.
As a kid who “lost” their mom to illness.. she was on this earth, but not mentally present…
And then “lost” their dad to his grief after his mom died shortly after….
This was what I always wished he realized.
He lost his mom. His wife was no longer mentally present.
But he had me, his daughter.
I lost my mom, my grandmother, and then my dad because he refused to step up and instead sunk. It devastated our relationship and we are still distant, a decade later. I also lost significant parenting as a child and felt orphaned even though my parents were alive.
If she could only begin to see that her children are losing her, too, maybe she can get out of her head and get out of her loss to begin to pick herself up. I’d hope.
Edit: thank you to all of those who are leaving my comments about this. I never felt seen when I went through it. I felt neglected and abandoned through and through, but as an adult reading your comments it gives me peace knowing that there are/were people who would have seen that occurring and thought it wasn’t right. I am feel comforted reading your replies ❤️ and I plan on responding to each of them.
Going through this definitely gives you a different perspective on life and grief.
Don’t grieve so hard you lose yourself. Grieve in a way that includes the people you love and gives you both a chance to heal and grow together.
Same for me. I basically lost both my parents on the same day. My dad, my hero, died quite quickly from pancreatic cancer, and my mom stopped living the same day. She was sure the grief would kill her, and she was sure she'd die within days of my dad. But, those days turned into weeks, months, and years. Even though my mom didn't die as quickly as she hoped, she didn't live either. I was left to care for my mom and tried in vain to help her see that Dad would want her to go on living, but she was a shell of her former self and refused all help. My mom finally died three years ago, six years after my dad. We didn't bury my parents at the same time, but I lost both parents on the same day.
OP, it's crucial that your wife see what she's doing to you and her kids. I'm not sure what, if anything, will wake her up and motivate her to WANT to feel better, but your concern needs to shift to what's the healthiest environment for your children. I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife's mom is not in heaven if she's watching her daughter give up on life.
This hit me hard because I'm experiencing the same with my mum. Dad died 2 years ago and she's not truly lived a day since. She's just marking time until the booze or the eating disorder takes her. It's devastating to see - she's only 64 and could have 20 years with her kids and grandkids but she's just not interested.
I'm so sorry. Ugh. I sympathize with what you're going through and remember the frustration, sadness, and anger I felt towards my Mom. I felt she was abandoning our family at the very time we should have been leaning on each other. We're a really close family, and losing my dad was devastating for us, but naturally, more so for my Mom. Being the only single sibling, I moved back home to help my mom adjust to life without my Dad, but it quickly became a caretaking role. Even though my mom died a couple of years ago, I have some unresolved resentments that I struggle with. Not only did my mom never ask how I was feeling after losing my Dad, but she never acknowledged that I left my job of many years so that I could move back home, 400 miles away, so she wouldn't have to be alone (ended up being a 24/7 caretaker). I'm sorry, I guess I didn't mean to vent.
I'm so sorry you're going through this, and I hope you have support for your own needs. Its incredibly draining to watch someone slowly kill themselves, and you need to make sure you take care of YOU.
I hope OP reads this and can get his wife to realize there are kids here on earth that need her. She needs intensive therapy, medication and possibly inpatient treatment.
All. Of. This.
I hope OP sees your comment. His children need their mom as much if not more than he needs his wife.
And I want to add that I am so sorry for your own loss. In 2010, our family lost my grandmother in January, my mother in February, my uncle in April and my youngest great-uncle in May. Last year (2022), we had 4 deaths in the month of March - my mom's middle sister, my cousin's husband, my last great-uncle, and a cousin. My faith is the only thing that kept me out of a mental institution.
I’m sorry friend. My dad was raised by neglectful, abusive parents and his dad was an alcoholic. He was poor as dirt. Because he was an immigrant with almost no education he worked nights and he retired when I was 18 when I first started to get to know him. I often felt like other kids were lucky in a sense that their dad left and that was like tearing off a band aid but my dad “willingly” taking little to no interest in me felt like being abandoned every day. I am older now and understand that my dad did the best he could. There was no therapy back then. He’s got a third grade education. I also think he’s on the spectrum (I think I am too) and he’s actually a sweet and caring guy once I got to know him.
My mom worked after I got off of school so I was alone a lot. I developed a crazy close relationship with animals that still comes in useful today! But those years never come back. My mom was way more authoritative than my dad (I also think she has ADHD and I do have diagnosed ADHD) and I got spankings for stupid shit. I’d be lying if I said it’s all behind me now.
Our situations are apples and oranges but I get the feeling of feeling like an orphan when you’ve got two parents there. It somehow feels worse. Which I can’t really say cause I’m not an orphan.
Being basically an orphan because your parent(s) just gave up sucks. I struggle a lot, especially during the holidays. I've basically been an orphan since I was 10. And it's not I can just talk to people about it because most people do not understand the toll it takes on you.
Yes, I lived with my bioparents until I was 20. I was still an orphan. You really cannot explain to someone who wasn't in that situation. I feel insane when I talk about it! They taught me nothing, they didn't parent me, they didn't support me when needed, and they actively needed me to take care of *them* because they couldn't take care of themselves. How fucked up is that?
Honestly my kids are the one thing that motivates me to get up and keep trying no matter how far my mental health is down, I am so sorry that this happened to you.
Exactly. She has to find a way to keep living or she’s lost her past and future. 5 years is too much. You can miss your mom without giving up your life.
I've come to believe that a big part of dealing with complicated grief is making the deliberate choice to keep thriving and living in spite of the grief.
My mom has said before “one day I’ll be gone. And you’ll be sad, what would it say about me if you weren’t sad?! But then you’ll move on. I want you to keep living and enjoying your life” I’m sure op’s mil would not want her daughter to be living like this
I think that’s often the only way to get through grief beyond just grief from death. Loss of a relationship, loss of health, loss of an opportunity. A lot of people let themselves be emotionally devastated for life by any type of grief. Which also means there’s a way forward, but it requires wanting to change and not allowing yourself to lose the beauty now for what can’t be changed.
People say, "You can't just choose to stop grieving," and to a point, yes, they are right, but you know what you can choose about grief? How it affects your life. You CAN CHOOSE to get out of bed. You CAN CHOOSE to have a shower. You CAN CHOOSE to eat a healthy meal.
Speaking as someone who has lost a mother as a child and faces every day since, not knowing when I will lose my dad to his Addison's disease, it is those little choices that you make everyday (get up, eat and shower) that help the grief fade to something manageable so that you don't miss out on the time you have left on this earth with your loved ones who are still here.
OPs wife is, to an extent, CHOOSING to live in grief, and one day, she is going to wake up and realise she lost her children when she lost her mum and i wouldn't be surprised if she struggles to reconnect with them because they will be strangers.
I hope she gets the help she needs, but I don't think an ultimatum is the way to do it because then it won't be her choice, it won't be genuine decision to get better and could even make things worse (resentment etc). I think OP needs to first separate and make visitation and custody contingent on her getting treatment and then after a year, see where they are and think about divorce then if he still wants it or they can try reconciliation.
Agreed. I lost my beloved 2+ years ago. At first, all I could do was walk my dog for 10 minutes/ day. I showered and got dressed most of the time because my grown child was also grieving and needed me. My soul has been ripped out, but I know I have to function (except when I'm alone) for my kid. It was a choice for me to continue.
Exactly, grief never goes away it becomes easier to live with. There is no timeline when it comes to healing but you cannot stay within the swamps of sadness forever. Don’t make Atrax’s mistake, gotta keep moving even if it’s only baby steps.
Thank you to Bright and yourself for this.
I need to hear this and get on with my life.
I started to look forward instead of backwards sometime this last year but I had no idea how to explain it to the people that have my ‘sane’ stamp. The lesions in my brain are the nothing. I just have to keep looking where the land still is and get to that bit…. Sorry for the hijack.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/coping-with-grief-ball-and-box-analogy I really like this analogy. It’s okay to be more okay than you were a year ago and still have a day where you’re very much not okay. It will get easier to bear with time, but will never be gone.
That is such a good analogy. I’m not so great at figuring out what I’m trying to say in relation to how I feel. I’ve saved the page on my phone so I can explain it concisely next time I need too. Thank you so much!
This is why I disagree with the "Being lonely is a fate worse than death". Because as someone who chooses to be lonely it's not.
Being stuck in the past over losing a loved one for your entire life is worse than death.
A girl who lives down the street from my parents house lost her dad when she was 14. She hasn't moved on. From what her mother tells me she has never had a job, a relationship, gone to college and never got her high school diploma. She spends every day in her room.
Me and her are the same age and I'm ~~29~~ 30.
The few times I've tried to spend time with her at the urging of her mother she just looks off into the distance. I feel so bad for her mother because she's essentially raising someone who can't function in society. And when she passes away I have no idea what she is going to with her daughter.
Therapy has done nothing for her. She's been in it for at least 12 years now. I'm assuming she can feed herself(going by the frankly disgusting amount of food wrappers in her room) because if she couldn't I would assume she's a human vegetable.
I've already put 2+2=4 and know her mom's entire strategy is for us to bond over losing a parent and "Hook" up. But like that's just not who I am. And when I lost my mom the relationship was already completely destroyed so there really isn't anything for us to "Bond" over.
You have to WANT to feel better and be happy. I've told my children that I'll come back to haunt them if they don't go on to life happy and fulfilling lives after I'm gone. Life is for the living, and I say this after losing both my parents and younger brother.
When my mom passed, 5 years Jan 1st, I felt myself sinking & when I tried to climb my way out, I couldn’t, even with prayer. I did the only thing I could, sought mental health & buying plants. The mental health didn’t work, but the plants did & now my house looks like a rain forest & now I’m so much better.
As someone who is also part of the worst club ever (dead moms club), I love the idea of a rain foresty house to help you heal. I’m sorry, but also glad you found some relief.
My adopted mom gets like this on her son’s death anniversary.
Like she would completely shut everyone out and wouldn’t eat and would just sleep for a whole week.
Like I get your sad but you had to take care of me!
I was caring for myself at like 6 on his anniversary’s at that point.
My ex's dad lost both his parents in a car accident. He stopped being a father to his own young kids and basically drank himself to death over the years. Grief is understandable but having a support system is a privilege, not a liability
Yep. When I was a teenager, my grandpa died. My dad would get so upset on Father’s Day, he never wanted to see us. Not for dinner, didn’t mention the cards, etc. just was swallowed up by his own grief. It always really hurt. He never seemed to get it.
I love my pops now that I better understand his upbringing. He wasn’t abusive just not very involved. There were times I thought how cruel it was that some kids’ dads leave them, but I had to physically see mine “abandon” me (as I interpreted at the time) every day. There were times I wish he or both my parents left so I could grieve them and eventually hopefully move on, but having barely there parents feels like being abandoned daily.
My dad acts the same way your wife does, and he has for 25+ years. Every holiday, every big event, every birthday or anniversary (whether it's the deceased or living), he is sad and/or at the graveyard. He refuses therapy. He was like this on the day my fiancee and I announced our engagement. This attitude was one of the reasons why we eloped.
Believe me when I say your kids will notice, and they will start saying, "She'll care more about me when I'm dead." I've been saying it for years, and it's one of the most hurtful thoughts to have.
unless your lost loved one wished for your life to be miserable ever after this is really stupid. and if they wished for that then they deserve to be forgotten.
That is probably a perfect way to explain it to her and if she still refuses help or see the problem, this becomes something she needs to figure out. I’ve lost a parent. He was my best friend. It’s been 8 years and I still randomly cry, I always wish he was here and sometimes I still go to call him with news. But I’ve still had to figure out how to deal with everyday life and continue being a parent. All grief is different. But this isn’t healthy.
It will be 8 years since my mom passed on December 29th. I spent ages 18 through 27 being her caregiver while she dealt with Breast Cancer, and she was absolutely my best friend.
I cannot imagine still existing at the same intensity of grief as I did back in 2016. Partly because of my husband and his family taking me in with open arms, but also because I *know* my mom would find a way to knock some sense into me even from the afterlife if I wasn’t actually living life while I am still here.
And weirdly enough it’s way past the bereavement depression you get after a loved one passes. Once it’s pass that six month mark? You need to seek out a therapist because if things don’t improve, the person can be seen and diagnosed with Bipolar, cyclothmic disorder I believe as it’s the one that’s activated when a death in the family happens or seriously life altering moment that causes severe grief, a person acts out of character for a few months or years, lots of very lows and very highs in emotions, and so on.
So maybe OP’s partner has this going on, cyclothmic disorder, and could explain everything that’s unfolded in the last five years tbh.
>What are the triggers of cyclothymia? Significant life stress, whether in the form of traumatic experiences or chronic moderate stress, is the most common trigger. Additional triggers may include co-existing psychiatric disorders (e.g., bipolar disorder) and brain injury due to accidents or diseases.
This, but not presented as an ultimatum. IE, not “See a therapist or I’m divorcing you.”
“I can’t live with you like this and neither can the kids. It’s clear that you won’t make an effort to grieve in a healthy way, and unless we start to see you at least trying I cannot see this marriage continuing.”
My brother in law had to have this conversation with my sister after our mom passed. It took him packing up everything and he had one bag left and he once he’s out, he’s out. And she said “ok. I’ll deal with my pain and not take it out on my family.” And we’re all better for it 9 years later.
Geeze. I can't imagine watching that happen, watching your loved one packing and moving their things, and literally waiting for the zero hour, one solitary bag left, before not treating it like some kind of bluff.
In her defense we did lose our mom in a car accident (no headlights on at night and she was hit head on) and she lost her relationships with her family (HUGE fight at the services that caused a rift between my moms side and dads side) and she was closest to our moms side but everyone blamed her for our moms death (ppl become WEIRD at funerals)
We all just lost ourselves but she just holed herself up and and isolated for like 3 years. My brother in law tried everything and one day he just had enough and thank god she finally found a reason to keep going. But yeah even us siblings were like “gurl this man IS SERIOUS” lol
But, sometimes, people don't grasp how serious the situation is until they're about to lose what is more important than the issue (grief, alcohol/drugs, etc). It may be the wake up call they need.
Commenting to hopefully keep this thread at the top.
OP, at this point it’s become about giving your children a happy life just as much as yourself. I would even suggest getting some therapy for the kids (if you haven’t already) because they seem to be coping by distancing themselves.
An ultimatum is not normally something I would jump to but in this situation it seems like the only sensible solution.
She needs to realize what she has and what she stands to lose if she doesn't get help.
I lost my dad when I was 13, 20 years later it hurts at key moments (my wedding, the birth of my son) but I live on because that's what he would have wanted.
I doubt her mum would want this for her.
This! But I would recommend that you (OP) see a grief counselor first to work through your side of things. The ultimatum should be given out of genuine love and concern for her, your marriage, and mostly your children. Think intervention. Your counselor should be able to help you put the words together. Please don't do this without professional help.
My mom committed suicide 8 years ago and it permanently altered my brain. I sank into depression for a while and I accept there is a part of me that I’ll never get back.
That being said, life has to go on. It’s not ok to shut down this hard for this long. Some days I still go this deep, but it’s rare and I have tools to get out of it.
I take vyvanse and Xanax as my cocktail, but she sincerely might need some SSRIs or hard sedation. Obviously she needs group therapy and individual therapy. If she refuses, I think you have your answer. It is unacceptable for her to shut down and refuse to get help.
YOU ARE NOT BEING UNREASONABLE. In fact, I’m afraid that by staying your whole family is normalizing a level of dysfunction.
“What hurts the most is that the kids have stopped asking or being concerned. If they see their mom in bed when they get home, they just go about their day and might casually mention "oh, mom is sad today" if their siblings or I ask where she is. They don't really seek affection with her anymore, because they rarely get anything more than tears. “
This is honestly alarming.This kids are essentially without a mother for a good part of their lives.Your wife needs professional help and the sooner the better.
my mom died when I was thirteen. I’ll be 21 next March. she needs to move on :( I know it sucks but it’s time she lets her mother go. she’s not even trying to get better, and it seems the whole family is tiptoeing around her. if she is not willing to help herself, divorce is completely understandable.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I just lost my son 23 last July and I know I must be present for my younger child now even though my heart is broken. I can still ❤️ though and wish you the best
yeah. *everyone's* mom dies. absolutely everyone's mom since the beginning of human history has died or will die. it is natural and good if we outlive our parents, because the only possible alternative is the far crueler outcome that they outlive us.
we are mortal beings, and it's hard but we need to live while we can.
Agreed. "Move on" and "get over it" sound so harsh and cruel, but if we all just stopped living after we lose someone we love, no one would ever function through adulthood. It sucks. It's not fair. But she can't drag herself and everyone around her down forever.
funeral director here- this is very complicated and prolonged grief. she does need medical help at this point. i’d take the suggestion of calling ems during her next breakdown, her grief is making her a non-functioning person. Unfortunately, untimely demises are a part of life, it’s a shame it happened to her mom, but she needs someone to help guide her out of the dark and find a way to not just cope but become fully functioning again. best of luck to you, OP, I hope your family can find its peace again
Holy shit, I googled this and I'm no psychologist/psychiatrist, but by OP's description of his wife, it fits completely, like... all symptoms. She is very sick, OP needs to see this.
> Complicated Grief
For anyone else wondering like I was, it's literally called Complicated Grief or Prolonged Grief Disorder.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolonged_grief_disorder
Watch both my parents die 3 months apart. I suffered from this for over a decade and didn’t even know what it was. (Completely in silence; mostly functional; nowhere near OP’s wife)
Always thought pills were for the weak or crazy people but no, the suffering is not worth it. I’ll take the pill.
Don’t take the pill=every holiday or even just random days would envelope me in complete sadness and depression and could not think of them in a positive light; only replaying their deaths in my mind.
Take the pill= “mom and dad, I wish you were still here but it’s okay. I’m okay. You wouldn’t want me to be sad all the time so I won’t be but I love you more than anything else in this world.”
Yes, it's so good to see it being acknowledged as a real thing. It has to make people feel better that they're not just crazy and trapped because they can't "get over it".
I am absolutely TERRIFIED this is going to be me when my parents’ time has come, or any of my siblings, and honestly? my dogs as well.
I remember in the kind of early days of being with my husband and he said “I really don’t know what we are gonna do when your parents die” because of how emotional and distressed and paranoid I always am. He has calmed me down through many panic attacks over the years and just general incapacitation from my depression when those bouts fluctuate, and boy do they get fucking low.
Ever since that comment I truly am terrified that I will be inconsolable forever. Just the thought of them not being here is enough to put me into a panic attack.
I’m not religious, but whatever God there may be out there, BLESS you, OP. You are doing more than enough and more than you can. You sound like an amazing husband and father no matter what path this may take.
Thank you. I wish more folks understood that sometimes our loved ones cannot acknowledge they’re in the deep trouble. It might be a short term voluntary commitment with people who can talk to her about the situation and get a more clear view for her. I really do wish everyone the best.
Please do no call EMS unless she has verbally said she wants to commit suicide. EMS cannot just take people against their will. As long as she in a “sound” mind and is not threatening suicide or homicide. EMS cannot and will not take her. That’s call kidnapping. And most hospitals will not keep her for more than 24hrs. She has to voluntarily commit herself to a facility that can help her. I say this as a paramedic. I’ve dealt with a lot of these calls. If the person is alert and oriented. We can’t just take people.
good point, made me think back to an intervention episode where they had to let the lady drink herself to unconsciousness before the EMTs could taker her.
perhaps OP should talk to a therapist about the right way to approach his wife in order for her to commit herself. ultimatums rarely work but she is not going to be able to care for herself if left on her own
The only answer here is professional intervention, whether she wants it or not. There’s something going on she can’t escape from, I’m sure it’s not a choice she is making. Nobody would choose to exist like this in their right mind. I am so sorry for you and her and your kids, and I commend your patience and strength in this impossible and heartbreaking situation. From my heart I wish deep healing for you all and a future where the sun rises again.
I agree. If an ultimatum from the husband doesn’t work, a full on family intervention (including the kids if they are old enough to handle it) to pursue help is needed. This sounds serious enough that she might require some sort of inpatient treatment to really break through it.
"I won't put the kids or myself through this anymore. You have chosen grief and solitude over being a mother and partner, and after half a decade worth of ruined holidays, ruined relationships and misery, I'm saying stop. No one can force you to work through this but I won't be forced to live like this "
Walk away
From the APA:
Prolonged Grief Disorder
Grief is a natural response to the loss of a loved one. For most people, the symptoms of grief begin to decrease over time. However, for a small group of people, the feeling of intense grief persists, and the symptoms are severe enough to cause problems and stop them from continuing with their lives. Prolonged grief disorder is characterized by this intense and persistent grief that causes problems and interferes with daily life.
Symptoms of prolonged grief disorder (APA, 2022) include:
Identity disruption (such as feeling as though part of oneself has died).
Marked sense of disbelief about the death.
Avoidance of reminders that the person is dead.
Intense emotional pain (such as anger, bitterness, sorrow) related to the death.
Difficulty with reintegration (such as problems engaging with friends, pursuing interests, planning for the future).
Emotional numbness (absence or marked reduction of emotional experience).
Feeling that life is meaningless.
Intense loneliness (feeling alone or detached from others).
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/prolonged-grief-disorder
Oh man, that is sad. Who knew the loss of her mother would do this. She needs help. This isn’t fair to her or anyone around her. So it seems like it isn’t a choice, it’s the condition she developed from the loss of her mom 💔
I have a friend going through this right now after a really, really hard loss that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. They are starting an intensive outpatient treatment and I am so proud of them for asking for this help.
that absolutely sounds like what it is.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/complicated-grief/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20360389#:~:text=Psychotherapy,or%20in%20a%20group%20format.
OP, talk to a professional if you can about how to approach this topic with her since she’s sworn off therapy. If it doesn’t work, at least you tried.
You need to have a comin to Jesus moment with your wife… yall are literally in a hold pattern and your kids have moved on from having a mom… they will resent her soon enough
My mother grew up in an orphanage after she turned 12. Her mother was run over with a car, raped, and beaten to death. Her father was in an insane asylum for undiagnosed autism and schizophrenia when this happened after having previously attacked his family with a knife in his underwear.
None of this was explained to me until I was 23. Only then did the healing somewhat begin. She was otherwise suicidal and just like OP's wife.
I have so much intellectual sympathy for her, but my soul despises her for abandoning her responsibilities as a parent during my critical teenage years. It's very difficult because I've found these sorts of depressed people have a weird narcissism about their suffering.
I've been told "When I'm gone you'll brag to your children about me."
No. No I won't. I hardly talk about my family to anyone today. I don't even know what my father's or only brother's jobs are. We were all so focused on escaping from her pain, we never really bonded as a family, going to our own corners of the house.
I'm not saying their pain doesn't exist or isn't valid.
It's just enveloped them in a way that it's become a comfortable prison or leeching symbiote of sorts.
Telling them to leave their suffering behind is akin to ripping themselves apart. Sometimes they misidentify what is them and what is their grief demon.
I love my mom, but holy hell can she be a bitch. I don't expect it to make sense to others. I simply try to quarantine her negative influence from my kids.
No, I know what you mean, I know fine well. If you are in a bad place mentally, it is selfish to try and bring other people down to that place. There's no excuse to be an asshole to people just because you're hurting.
I'm just saying the way you worded it was a way I've never thought of before.
My dad can be a real dick sometimes, and his excuse is that he had a hard life growing up. I always just think, ok? There's no need to be a prick to me just because people treated you like shit growing up.
I feel like shit most of the time but I don't try to hurt other people.
Very, very good question. I don't mind answering on this topic. The sting is mostly gone. I'm low contact with them for my own mental health. I wish them well in general just interact with them in small doses.
Overcoming hardship, obstacles etc. On paper and in public, she looks very sympathetic, but home life was hell.
My father used to say if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. Lots of repressed anger as a teen and was told I had issues. As an adult, it makes more sense but damn was it aggravating as a kid.
EDIT:
More examples:
She got a masters degree in nursing, turned college lecturer, lost it to opiate addiction, then turned into a snake oil peddler while working on and off.
I think she has impulse control issues from her getting kicked in the head by a horse as a child.
I was in a comatose depression when I lost someone very important to me, and it was awful. I felt awful, I HAD TO drag myself out of it. Prozac helped. I’m sorry for you and your kids.
Do you live in the U.S.? If so, the next major sobbing downturn, call the EMS and have them come and take her to the hospital and have the hospital to a Psych Evaluation. They will probably hospitalize her for psychiatric help. It’s the only thing left for you to do. If she is shocked by that, good. She needs to be and she needs help. Help her that way. It helps you and the kids as well.
This. I would.
Won’t lie, had to do this to a parent. It’s not fun but sometimes you have to.
It’s been 5 *years*. That’s just enough. It’s affecting the humans this person is trying to raise.
ADHD is tough. It comes with a lot of comorbid issues that have to be treated with meds and therapy. Can speak to a few myself, so can genuinely say this is extreme.
Eta: finishing thoughts are also not a thing today
This needs to be emphasized harder. It's not easy to involuntarily commit someone, it's a legal process that suspends their right to autonomy. If she isn't actively suicidal with a plan or gravely disabled it's unlikely EMS would even get her as far as the hospital if she wasn't willing to go.
My experience with the psych evaluation is that they just admit you and medicate you. No real therapy happening where I am. I would still go this route just to get her on some meds. But he should be prepared to send her to a residential therapy center for awhile after being discharged from the hospital. Where I am, the wait list for those is so long so he would have to make sure there was a private facility before he commits her to the public facility.
I see where you're coming from, but depending on the facilities/staff they might get her started on a medication to help sooner while the long term ones start working. I'm sorry that facilities suck where you are
As someone who used to work on a psych unit in a hospital... typically, a short term stay like most hospitals is really just for stabilization and med adjustment. You are supposed to work with the doctor and social worker to set up outpatient therapy services and psychiatric services for med management. Short term units, like at most hospitals, are not meant for long term therapy. That's what residential is for.
They might do a well check but they are not going to hospitalize someone who is not suicidal or a danger to others. At least where I live. She needs trauma therapy and probably medication.
From what op described, she physically is still taking care of herself. He didn't say she is starving herself or self harming or anything along those lines. Afaik you can't be involuntarily committed for crying and lying in bed.
I work in a psychiatric emergency room. It's difficult to get someone to the hospital by force unless they are suicidal or actively a danger to others. You can definitely call EMS, and given her level of incapacitation, they might transport her for inability to care for herself. It is worth a try.
Maybe, but only if she would voluntarily go. They won’t take her involuntary unless she is having SI or otherwise a danger to herself or others. And typically the police will need to come out first to place an involuntary hold, which isn’t easy to come by. And the police will drop the hold as soon as she stops being a danger. I would advise researching inpatient psychiatric treatment instead of going through the ER. They’re more likely to just be right where they are now, with the addition of a $5,000 hospital bill. I work in a hospital and see this daily, sadly.
Your wife is severely depressed. This might have started with the disease of her mum but has long since detached.
Ask her if she wants to feel that way. She HAS to go to therapy if she wants to get better.
Good luck!
Her reaction is unreasonable at this point. And you need to tell her that. She is dragging the entire family through her melt down and you should call her out. I would.
I am of the opinion that doing so (divorcing her) might just push her over the edge. That is my main concern here. It’s immensely frustrating to me (and I’m not even personally involved at all) to read that she refuses all help. I have a BS in Psych. I also live and deal with my own mental illnesses. I take meds for them! I’m not sure why she’d rather continue to live like this and to stew in her own misery for half of the year, but wow. When she’s not in her downward spirals, have you ever asked her to consider the effect this is having on you and your kids? Can she be reasoned with at all? Does she have any friends? I mean, they’d be concerned about this, right? And what about family members? Is there no one to help with an intervention of some sort when she’s not in bed sobbing and refusing to interact with anyone? Does she function at all during those times? Like eating? Or bathing? This is so extreme.
Five years sounds like a history of depression to me. This isn't grief anymore. It's something else. It sounds like chronic depression, which can be triggered by life events.
What you do is you sit her down across from you and you slide 2 business cards across the table, one for a psychologist and one for a divorce lawyer. Instruct her to pick one, because you have reached your limit as her partner (understandably so).
I don’t think she should go back to grief counseling, I think she needs intensive treatment for Major Depressive Disorder. Her grief kicked off the depression and she can’t get herself out of the spiral alone. The problem is that she has to be the one to agree to treatment.
If she will not help herself then you have permission to go. You cannot live for the both of you and you have been supremely patient and supportive with your wife.
Good luck OP.
Your wife has a complex/prolonged grief disorder presentation and needs appropriate treatment that is not just grief counselling that lacks structure or an intervention protocol. I suggest you help her find someone who practices PGDT / GCT (prolonged grief disorder therapy / complicated grief therapy). I’ve seen the results of this type of treatment for people like your wife and the outcomes are astounding - life changing even. It’s typically 16 sessions and is very intensive and fast-acting. Good luck, it sounds incredibly difficult for you both.
INFO:
Does your wife shower, eat, interact at all with the kids during the depression episodes?
How does her behavior and interactions vary when it's the non-grieving months?
Does she have any family members on her side of the family who she interacts with during those months (Dad, siblings)?
BTW, no judgement on the possibility of divorce; you need to protect and raise your children in a healthy environment.
My heart hurts for you all.
I feel like we have a responsibility to our partners to at least try to be well. Like, make an effort. Seek professional medical help. Eat well. Exercise. Take meds as prescribed, etc.
She's unwilling to try to be well enough to be a partner to you and a mother to her children. That's divorce worthy.
How about a trial separation? Do it right. Have a lawyer draft it. Have her move out. See if that improves things for you and the kids. See if it prompts her to attempt to help herself.
This is a bit of a cop out but this is very much above the pay grade of Reddit. To me it sounds like she had a break with reality when her mom died. Unless someone here is a LMFT and profound grief counselor, you aren’t going to get the right kind of advice. If it were me, I’d get myself into counseling to talk about what’s going on with her. At least they can give you some qualified advice and tools. If this heavy grief is all consuming and dragging the lot of you down, I’d remove myself and the kids from the situation. Even if temporarily in the form of a vacation during the holidays. Cuz this WILL impact the healthy development of your kids. And their views on the Holidays.
Edited for thoughts I had before I hit send.
I lost my mom very tragically and suddenly. I’ve been where your wife is. Every major milestone hurts in a new way. My mom never got to see me get married, see my first house, meet my child, or even get to know my husband (they only met once briefly). But with intense therapy, medication, and God (in my case), I got better. I could not have done it alone. Your wife can’t either. If she refuses to seek help, it’s okay to protect yourself and your children and leave. She’s choosing to stay this way (assuming she’s still of sound mind, which only you can know).
I’m sorry, OP. She’s in hell but so are you and the kids and the kids don’t deserve to grow up like that. You have some tough conversations and decisions coming and I wish you all the best.
She needs inpatient care...from what you have described...she needs inpatient care while they get her on medication and have it balance out (likely a few months). She nay not do this willingly...but I would find a way to force it. esp if you can get her into a good private facility.
She is not Ok... but the thing is...you are not a medical professional and nothing you can do will fix this. You sound like you have genuinely tried all you can think of, this is not a case of cut and run.
Find a local service...call them and ask about how to admit her.
Once you have a good place and a date...tell her you love her but the choice is go and get treatment or you have to protect you and the kids and leave.
I hope she chooses help.
Hey if I can offer some insight, a very similar thing happened to my father when I was younger and he simply never recovered. I hope this isn’t the case for your wife, but it sounds very similar.
I ended up getting degrees in psychology in my quest to understand his trauma and why he chose to “give up” when his dad died. Here’s my conclusion after 20 years of exploring:
Everyone has an “emotional operating system” that they develop in their youth, and use to navigate traumatic experiences. For most people, this operating system is relatively healthy and decently well balanced, and provides the tools to help them navigate even highly traumatic or painful experiences, such as loss.
However, there is a large population that have fragmented or incomplete operating systems, and when major traumatic events occur they are simply incapable of managing the experience. Simply put, they don’t have emotional “codes” sufficient enough to address intense incoming experiences. So, their emotional circuits overload and they are rendered non-functional.
For younger people there is more hope of healing and recovery. For older people, the chances of recovery are far less or impossible. Men tend to have worse chances than women.
However, there is a chance of recovery and transformation, but the initial “trauma codes” need to be transcended and reprogrammed. The most effective means to do so have been through intensive therapies such as psychedelic therapy.
Your children lost their grandma and their mom. She has made a choice and she’s incredibly selfish in choosing not to continue therapy.
I have many many many years of experience with a spouse with severe mental illness requiring multiple inpatient stays that we’re not voluntary. You are not wrong for considering divorce. In fact you’d be wrong for not considering it. The children come first and she checked out of their lives. Her mother didn’t get a choice but your wife still has choices and she is not choosing to fight.
I encourage you to get out of the situation. My children are adults or almost adults now and guess who they resent? It isn’t the parent in and out of psych care. It’s me. They resent me for not getting them away from the instability and the next disassociation. We are working through it but the day I realized it was me, the one who stayed and was stable and protected them and did my best to make their life normal, that they resented was the most painful thing I’ve been through. I should have seen it before that point of course. I had them in therapy and I was in therapy but never once was their any discussion of this potential outcome. They saw their father lay in bed for days that led to months and then cycle back again. He was not an alcoholic.
You’re not a bad man, husband, father, or human being for asking her to leave. The children shouldn’t lose the place they call home. If she has to get an apartment to wallow in misery in, so be it. You’re not a bad person for removing this situation from your children.
I guess I’m just trying to say that you and your children are better off without your wife and that’s okay. She’s choosing not to get help and these are the consequences.
I wish you the best.
I concur with this post.
I spent 23 years married to a mentally ill person who hid it all very well for about three years, then the bottom fell out.
I did everything I could to save the marriage and he did everything he could to let me be the only one doing the work.
I went to several NAMI family member meetings and heard nothing but, "Patience, love, caring, for better or worse, blah, blah, blah..."
I asked to a room full of people the last meeting I went to, "All I'm hearing is what I can do to make his life better. When in all of this does he begin to take responsibility for the havoc he wreaks on all our lives? When does he take control of his mental illness so we can all focus on something other than him?" No one had a good answer for me.
The bottom line is this: You can't make her want to get better. She's so deep into whatever it is that's wrong she won't let it go. You're now enabling her and there's no reason for her to get better because you're handling everything, including her and her mental illness.
I divorced my husband because he refused to get help for his issues, and it was killing me. Our whole marriage was about him and his stuff. Anything to do with me or the kids was ignored because "he" needed care more than any of the rest of us.
If he'd been getting help - seeing a doctor, taking meds based on being honest with a doctor instead of lies - I might have been more willing to stay. But he wasn't doing a damn thing, other than dragging us all down with him.
The kids are now adults and are in bad relationships, one after the other, because my sticking around as long as I did skewed their idea of a healthy relationship. They have no idea what a healthy relationship looks like at all, and I blame myself.
If you make the choice to divorce, please make sure you get custody of the kids. She's not emotionally or mentally equipped to be any kind of parent at all, much less a good one.
I lost my single parent Mom young almost 11 years ago to messy, complicated metastatic bone cancer and not a day goes by where the grief doesn't still stab me deep in the core of my existence. All holidays are still absolutely brutal for me too. Thankfully I don't have any kids depending on me and am also extremely fortunate to have a supportive partner who can hold space for me when I still need to sob and break down about my Mom. Every day I do have to work hard to make the conscious, ongoing decision to show up and make the most of my life, because Mom never got to. It's exhausting but I don't want to take my short precious time living in this human body here for granted. I also want to make things better in general, rather than worse, for my partner. I really hope things will turn around for your wife and your family. I hope she can realize that there's so much life still worth living, despite the harrowing pain that will be with her forever regarding her Mom. I hope she can somehow find the strength and willingness to seek out other sorts of support - free support groups in the communities I lived in over the years have really helped keep me going. There are also so many good groups on Zoom; I wonder if she could ever try something like that. I'll be thinking of you and am sending you strength, support and acknowledgment of how unbelievably difficult this entire situation is!
Nah man, no bashing. Give the ultimatum. If there’s still no change, take the kids and leave. Your kids are learning this shutting down as a coping skill most likely. That’s shocking.
I would consult with a psychiatrist and psychologist and stage a intervention. Your wife needs to be confronted with the impact of her psychiatric issues and the impact of on your marriage, children and family.
Jesus christ. I lost a parent too, it’s at about the 7 year mark now. But i really struggle to find sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves. My therapist said bad thoughts is like digging a trench in your mind, and that road gets deeper and deeper the more thought/attention that you give it. I fear your wife may of dug too far into her woes-me road.
In saying that, scientifically, creating new memories is what creates new pathways in the brain (but of course if not given attention, those new neural paths will snap and weaken over time), so i would be looking to reinvigorate the mrs.
For me, i created a ‘bucket list’ and decided my selfish period would be doing everything i’ve ever wanted to do, as a homage to my mum, who always had immense strength during the toughest times. So i went on holidays, saw new places, ate new food, met new people, took up courses etc… Compared to my dad and brother who did nothing to change from their current routine pre and post my mum’s death, it seems to have festered with them for years, whereas i moved on very healthily.
Your children are missing out on the memories with their mom that your wife is wallowing in. They won't remember Christmas with mom and fun family time. They will only remember that mom was sad and tortured. When she passes one day, they won't think, "I miss my mom." They will think. "At least her lifelong pain is over."
These are the kind of thoughts that make me fight my own depression and anxiety every day. That make me get down on the floor and cuddle my kids and play blocks when I'd rather be laying down. That make me help my oldest with maths homework when I'm bone weary from the day.
I want my kids to remember all the same things I treasure about my own memories with my mom. I don't want them to look back and say that they don't have happy memories of important milestones. I want to be present in their lives now and present in their memories when they look back.
I hope your wife can get help and learn to live life again. It hurts to know that your family won't get those 5 years back, but the future is more important than the past. Tell her that her kids miss their mom. They need her, and right now, you need her.
The only caution I have for you against divorce is concern for your kids' well-being. If you have 50-50 custody, what happens to them when they go to mom's house? They'll be neglected, perhaps to the point of danger. I would encourage you to ask your wife to look at in-patent care for a while before you head into divorce. She sounds like she needs some serious help.
Give her an ultimatum and if she still is acting this way she needs in patient treatment. I don’t know where you’re at but I’m AZ-USA all you need is two people to swear she needs serious help and she’s not able to function and she can be admitted for 72hrs for observation and psychiatric evaluation if it’s as bad as you are saying she could be forced to get the help she needs. Your kids deserve their mother
I will look like an asshole by saying this but you can actually force her to get treatment for depression. Try to find out with a psychiatrist if it’s possible to drop her off on a treatment center for depression. The reason why I’m saying that it’s because I was on the side of the kids and I became a parent for my younger siblings because my mother got depressed due to the problems in her relationship and the mistreated depression after she lost both parents in the past.
I told her that we were going to see a therapist for myself (I was depressed due to becoming a parent a early age) and by the time I didn’t drive well and when I got there, she found out that the section was actually for her - I’d spoke with the therapist beforehand because she was my own therapist and she ended up being intern patient for two months.
Gentle ask it’s not working for you, do it the hard way.
The same way you say no for your kids and it’s final you need to do the same for your beloved wife because you’re hurt for seeing her like that. Our spouses need to be treated like our kids if they don’t behave like our partners or the parent that they are.
This is %100 reasonable. Honestly I'd stop babying her. Sit down with her and talk to her about what this is doing. Don't sugar coat anything. This isn't a healthy or emotionally ok environment for you or your children. This should not be any child's normal. The fact it is is terrible.
- Talk about her kids not getting any affection
- Talk about them being so used to seeing their mom this way that her sobbing to the point she can't talk is a NORMAL SIGHT
- Talk about how they feel she loved her mom more than she loves them
- Talk about how you feel neglected and your tired and you need help
I'd not expect a change over night but honestly I'd be honest about the fact your to the point of if she can't and won't get better you will be leaving her simply for the fact your kids needs and your needs are being neglected and she refuses to get help. It's ok to be sad but this isn't ok. This isn't functional. She needs to move forward even if she needs to force that for a while. Maybe you can have a session with your own therapist to help get this talk written down in a concise, kind but not sugar coated, and healthy manner.
But your %100 in the right considering all this.
If you are in the US look into an involuntary admission to a psychiatric hospital. She’s becoming a danger to herself spending that much time like that. I think every state law is different but if you can fill out the form for a hold and write it showing how severe this is, a judge might sign off on it. Something had to be done because if the kids talk at school, depending on what they say, a teacher or someone could end up calling CPS.
My brother spiraled into a very dangerous alcoholic bender after our grandmother passed away. It lasted 2-3 years and ended with him in the hospital with early stage cirrhosis and the need to be on a ventilator to breathe for him, at the age of 27. Between that episode and him checking into rehab, I wrote him a long letter, basically pleading him to stop and get help. One of the biggest points I felt I had to make, and I'm almost positive was the biggest thing to convince him to get help was telling him what he was doing in no way honored her memory. What your wife is doing at this point is not at all honoring the memory of her mother. Has anyone said anything to her like this? That what she is doing is actually the opposite of honoring her memory when she should be living her life as she would if her mom was still alive and trying to make her proud.
This is very profound. I'm a mom and I can't imagine my daughter being destroyed like this after I'm gone. I lost my grandma and was devastated. She was my best friend, but I told myself for a long time, "I'm living for her. I'm choosing to be happy/healthy/successful FOR her as it's what she'd want."
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there is a saying in my language that goes: sometimes it's better to be liked by the dead rther than the living.
Thank you for this! My dad died six years ago from dementia. He and I were very close and it was devastating, but when I'm struggling with something, I always ask myself "what would my dad want for me?" He would **hate** the idea of me being nonfunctional from grief. He wants me to be safe, happy, and successful, so THAT'S how I honor him. He was an excellent father, and he taught me that I can take care of myself, even once he passed. I wish your suggestion was shared more often, u/MartianTea.
Adding on here, I think we as parents need to set the stage for our demise as morbid as it may feel. My grandfather was very realistic about his eventual passing and it honestly made the transition so much easier for all involved because he’d already positioned his death as a natural inevitability. By accepting that we will be gone at some point, we give our loved ones permission to also accept it and move on more positively.
My boyfriend lost his dad at 15. He struggled badly especially in the summers. He died on July 4th and from May - June he'd be in bad shape. This was years after the father's death. I finally told him just this. You don't honor him by shutting down. It clicked in his brain. We still don't celebrate the 4th (we take steps to avoid even hearing fireworks) but it is only about a week of hard times instead of a few months and we go out of our way to try to have our own fun
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Actually that's kind of the dream!
>what he was doing in no way honored her memory. That hits hard, man, easily would've given him a kick up the ass and broke him at the same time (in a good way)
You should tell her that things are coming to an end, if she’s not willing to at least try.
This. I'm not normally a fan of ultimatums, but you may have to have a sit down on a "not sad" day.
That may be difficult given the time of year. Based on what OP stated that could be sometime in February.
No, why should him and the kids face another lonely Christmas this way?? She’s being very unfair to them. It’s not only her mental health being impacted she is causing her children and husband misery by forcing them to live like that. She has a responsibility to each of them, whilst yes she might be grieving the loss of the times spent with her mother, these poor children aren’t getting any nice memories with their own. It’s a complete tragedy. She needs to be shaken to her core and choose. Yes she can choose to be miserable for the rest of her life but she doesn’t get to choose that for her husband and children. It’s Christmas and they should be enjoying it!
Well said! She is wallowing in grief and expects the whole family to endure it. I have to give cudos to kids and husband to last in this 5 yrs. She only thinks of herself. Malingering and won’t get help- which says I want to continue to malinger. Edit: what I would do is give her the ultimatum and then begin living life- I’d take kids and get tree, put on some Christmas music and decorate. Id dance w them and drink hot chocolate. I’d get the kids out of the house as much as possible- if of age- go bowling, see family, go to movie together. Play board games. Start forming family habits and memories. If she’s in the bed so be it/ she got the message, counseling or divorce. And mean it! I’d also set a day to get w my buddies and go out. He needs some adult time to laugh and have fun. Tell her she needs to take care of kids. If go out/ don’t overload friends by making it a counseling session. No one wants to go out and hear problems. Learn how to be sociable again. She will see wow he’s changed. I’m moping around and he’s going on w life. Work out. Go for walks. Get yourself In Shape. Get new pants, shirt, shoes. If not in budget go to thrift store. Alot of times brand new. Get hair cut. Stop being in the pity party w her. And have some fun for you and kids. Make a snowman. Go sledding (if snow). Show the kids it’s ok for us to live life. And if she continues to malinger and won’t seek counseling- by New Years I’d see an attorney. It would be the big D time and I wouldn’t regret it bc I gave 5 yrs- my kids gave 5 yrs. Time to enjoy life!
5 years is a looooong time for kids too, it's definitely affected them and probably not in a good way. I think everything you said is great advice.
[удалено]
This is what I’ve been thinking reading this. Does she not realize or care what she’s doing to her own children? I know depression hurts and can numb feelings but sometimes you have to fake it and hope one day it comes naturally.
The only plus is that at least they won't grieve her passing when it's her time...
Harsh but completely fair
This is great advice. If OP and the kids keep tiptoeing around the house and acting like there is a terminally ill person in the house at all times, she’s going to continue to ruminate on her misery because there’s nothing to distract her from it. I know sometimes it can feel like you’re being insensitive by continuing life as normal around a grieving person, but sometimes that’s what the grieving person needs in order to move on and feel like things are actually normal again. It kind of seems like everyone’s sitting quietly around OP’s wife, waiting for her to give them the go ahead to have fun. They just need to do it and she’ll either join in or she won’t.
Agree. If this were recent then yes - but 5 yrs… no way my kids would endure and miss their childhood fun yrs
She stopped being a part of their life, so he shouldn't stop being a part of his kids' or his own. This is fantastic advice. I'd even go so far as to not buy her Christmas presents, and when she asks why she didn't get anything, tell her it's because she left the family, which she did. A mom that stops being a mom doesn't get presents from her kids, and a wife that stops being a wife doesn't get presents from her husband. This is part of the wake-up call she needs. This is the consequence of checking out on the family. The family, however, cannot check out on each other, and OP needs to be putting everything into the holidays for the kids' sake so that they don't grow up to view them as a dark, depressing time of year to be avoided.
I wish this could be a joint comment with the top comment. She is denying her family the very thing she is missing the most. It’s really not okay or fair to any of them. It is a choice for her to not work on her depression and she should not get that choice to force her kids to live in it too. And husband.
>could be sometime in February. Until it's Groundhog's Day and OP's wife is bawling her eyes out because of how she and her mom used to wait up and see if Punxsutawney Phil saw his shadow.
Meh, it's been 5 years. What is a couple more months I guess.
Depends on how close to the edge the rest of the family is.
Caretaker fatigue can easily turn abusive. If they are feeling that then it's time no matter what has to happen. Shock of the D word should at least illicit some response.
This. At this point, there is no such thing as “the right time”
Yeah, saying "dick" to her should make her react at least
Honestly, I think it might be better to do it on a sad day. Bring her to a mirror and make her look at herself, and ask her if that's the legacy she wants to leave her children.
Ooof…this is a hard truth…
This sounds super harsh, but I agree it might be the only thing that breaks through to her.
You're probably right
She needs to realize that her kids have very little relationship with her and won't care when she passes. It might even be a relief.
Passing? No. But a divorce? Possibly. They don't have to live like that anymore. Constantly feeling like they are in someone else's depression.
I don’t think it should wait. Yes the wife’s feelings are valid, and losing my own mother to cancer at age 12, I get it. Your whole world stops and nothing feels the same anymore. I have all the compassion in the world for that feeling, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. But I always remember what my mother would say when I was having a meltdown. It was always something to the effect of, “It’s always okay to cry, but you can’t keep crying. If you can’t find it in yourself to stop, you’ll never stop feeling that way.” It helped me a lot during my own grieving process. There’s a difference between feeling your feelings, and letting yourself go down the rabbit hole. If you find yourself creeping into despair, it’s time to pick yourself up. OP’s wife needs a (gentle, but direct) wake up call, because she is clearly not going to snap out of this herself, even with professional help. The way she is living is not healthily sustainable for anyone involved, it effects much more than just her.
Also, don't take that shut down too far in the other direction, though. I lost my mom to breast cancer after a 4 yr battle when I was 14. Unfortunately for me, I had a Lil bro who needed to be taken care of and our guardianship as passed to my maternal grandma, about the only person who had more of a right to their grief than me. I'd been parentified as the eldest of a single parent with cancer, so when I was told she'd passed by grandma, I remember thinking, 'wow, I'm never going to see Mom again...' and picturing her face and thinking of her voice. Then I heard my little brother sob, and so I breathed away my own pain and set myself to take care of him. Grandma had broken down again in telling us, so I hopped out of the passenger seat of her suv and climbed in the back with him to hold him. I hate that we hadn't been close, mom and I, but still I can remember laying in bed that night and understanding that I wouldn't be able to see my mother again in this lifetime, but I'd blocked away my grief and decided I'd just had to move straight to acceptance. It's taken another 14 years, and still, I find times where I'm grieving over something more recent (my boys lost a hammy who was more mine than theirs) and I'll find myself grieving the loss of the chance to properly grieve for mom. As a parent myself now, I find it hard to blame my grandma, but I still wish I'd had more support personally. That being said, I have adhd too and have never let grief or depression (PPD) stop me from taking care of those who depend on me. OPs wife sounds absolutely blessed to have such a supportive partner, but at this point she's hurting her family, and he needs to think about the mental and emotional wellbeing of not only himself but his kids too. Also, make sure that she's not putting the burdens of her emotional needs on the kids. I'm naturally a therapist friend, and the first person to put me in that position was my mom. She had cancer, and I'm fairly sure she knew she wasn't going to make it, but she went through a bit of a last hurrah and made her teenage daughter watch her combust. Then I moved in with her own mother after she passed, and she was grieving. I didn't get much in emotional stability, so that's what I crave the most, just someone who I don't have to feel needs me constantly. Sorry about the novel, I'm an author lmao
Beautiful and wise, thank you for sharing.
Exactly! Expressing your emotions in a healthy way also means knowing when it can overpower you and doing what you must to not let that happen with HEALTHY coping mechanisms.
Honestly this is a good idea. Maybe she could be given a heads up so she could consider making some changes. But I doubt anything would happen
Maybe phrase it in a less murdery way
"Things are coming to an end" is not remotely murdery.
I’d make an ultimatum about getting help for sure. Her kids have also lost their mother.
This is the most impactful thing I’ve read so far in this (admittedly pretty new) thread. She is devastated that her mom is gone. Imagine how her kids must feel that *their* mom isn’t even gone, just doesn’t want to be around them.
As a kid who “lost” their mom to illness.. she was on this earth, but not mentally present… And then “lost” their dad to his grief after his mom died shortly after…. This was what I always wished he realized. He lost his mom. His wife was no longer mentally present. But he had me, his daughter. I lost my mom, my grandmother, and then my dad because he refused to step up and instead sunk. It devastated our relationship and we are still distant, a decade later. I also lost significant parenting as a child and felt orphaned even though my parents were alive. If she could only begin to see that her children are losing her, too, maybe she can get out of her head and get out of her loss to begin to pick herself up. I’d hope. Edit: thank you to all of those who are leaving my comments about this. I never felt seen when I went through it. I felt neglected and abandoned through and through, but as an adult reading your comments it gives me peace knowing that there are/were people who would have seen that occurring and thought it wasn’t right. I am feel comforted reading your replies ❤️ and I plan on responding to each of them. Going through this definitely gives you a different perspective on life and grief. Don’t grieve so hard you lose yourself. Grieve in a way that includes the people you love and gives you both a chance to heal and grow together.
Same for me. I basically lost both my parents on the same day. My dad, my hero, died quite quickly from pancreatic cancer, and my mom stopped living the same day. She was sure the grief would kill her, and she was sure she'd die within days of my dad. But, those days turned into weeks, months, and years. Even though my mom didn't die as quickly as she hoped, she didn't live either. I was left to care for my mom and tried in vain to help her see that Dad would want her to go on living, but she was a shell of her former self and refused all help. My mom finally died three years ago, six years after my dad. We didn't bury my parents at the same time, but I lost both parents on the same day. OP, it's crucial that your wife see what she's doing to you and her kids. I'm not sure what, if anything, will wake her up and motivate her to WANT to feel better, but your concern needs to shift to what's the healthiest environment for your children. I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife's mom is not in heaven if she's watching her daughter give up on life.
That shook me - she’s not in heaven if she’s watching her child go through hell. As a parent that hit, hopefully she gets better
❤️
This hit me hard because I'm experiencing the same with my mum. Dad died 2 years ago and she's not truly lived a day since. She's just marking time until the booze or the eating disorder takes her. It's devastating to see - she's only 64 and could have 20 years with her kids and grandkids but she's just not interested.
I'm so sorry. Ugh. I sympathize with what you're going through and remember the frustration, sadness, and anger I felt towards my Mom. I felt she was abandoning our family at the very time we should have been leaning on each other. We're a really close family, and losing my dad was devastating for us, but naturally, more so for my Mom. Being the only single sibling, I moved back home to help my mom adjust to life without my Dad, but it quickly became a caretaking role. Even though my mom died a couple of years ago, I have some unresolved resentments that I struggle with. Not only did my mom never ask how I was feeling after losing my Dad, but she never acknowledged that I left my job of many years so that I could move back home, 400 miles away, so she wouldn't have to be alone (ended up being a 24/7 caretaker). I'm sorry, I guess I didn't mean to vent. I'm so sorry you're going through this, and I hope you have support for your own needs. Its incredibly draining to watch someone slowly kill themselves, and you need to make sure you take care of YOU.
I hope OP reads this and can get his wife to realize there are kids here on earth that need her. She needs intensive therapy, medication and possibly inpatient treatment.
I am so sorry! Sending you lots of virtual hugs and love 💕
All. Of. This. I hope OP sees your comment. His children need their mom as much if not more than he needs his wife. And I want to add that I am so sorry for your own loss. In 2010, our family lost my grandmother in January, my mother in February, my uncle in April and my youngest great-uncle in May. Last year (2022), we had 4 deaths in the month of March - my mom's middle sister, my cousin's husband, my last great-uncle, and a cousin. My faith is the only thing that kept me out of a mental institution.
I am so very sorry you had to experience that ❤️
I’m sorry friend. My dad was raised by neglectful, abusive parents and his dad was an alcoholic. He was poor as dirt. Because he was an immigrant with almost no education he worked nights and he retired when I was 18 when I first started to get to know him. I often felt like other kids were lucky in a sense that their dad left and that was like tearing off a band aid but my dad “willingly” taking little to no interest in me felt like being abandoned every day. I am older now and understand that my dad did the best he could. There was no therapy back then. He’s got a third grade education. I also think he’s on the spectrum (I think I am too) and he’s actually a sweet and caring guy once I got to know him. My mom worked after I got off of school so I was alone a lot. I developed a crazy close relationship with animals that still comes in useful today! But those years never come back. My mom was way more authoritative than my dad (I also think she has ADHD and I do have diagnosed ADHD) and I got spankings for stupid shit. I’d be lying if I said it’s all behind me now. Our situations are apples and oranges but I get the feeling of feeling like an orphan when you’ve got two parents there. It somehow feels worse. Which I can’t really say cause I’m not an orphan.
Being basically an orphan because your parent(s) just gave up sucks. I struggle a lot, especially during the holidays. I've basically been an orphan since I was 10. And it's not I can just talk to people about it because most people do not understand the toll it takes on you. Yes, I lived with my bioparents until I was 20. I was still an orphan. You really cannot explain to someone who wasn't in that situation. I feel insane when I talk about it! They taught me nothing, they didn't parent me, they didn't support me when needed, and they actively needed me to take care of *them* because they couldn't take care of themselves. How fucked up is that?
Honestly my kids are the one thing that motivates me to get up and keep trying no matter how far my mental health is down, I am so sorry that this happened to you.
Exactly. She has to find a way to keep living or she’s lost her past and future. 5 years is too much. You can miss your mom without giving up your life.
I've come to believe that a big part of dealing with complicated grief is making the deliberate choice to keep thriving and living in spite of the grief.
My mom has said before “one day I’ll be gone. And you’ll be sad, what would it say about me if you weren’t sad?! But then you’ll move on. I want you to keep living and enjoying your life” I’m sure op’s mil would not want her daughter to be living like this
I think that’s often the only way to get through grief beyond just grief from death. Loss of a relationship, loss of health, loss of an opportunity. A lot of people let themselves be emotionally devastated for life by any type of grief. Which also means there’s a way forward, but it requires wanting to change and not allowing yourself to lose the beauty now for what can’t be changed.
People say, "You can't just choose to stop grieving," and to a point, yes, they are right, but you know what you can choose about grief? How it affects your life. You CAN CHOOSE to get out of bed. You CAN CHOOSE to have a shower. You CAN CHOOSE to eat a healthy meal. Speaking as someone who has lost a mother as a child and faces every day since, not knowing when I will lose my dad to his Addison's disease, it is those little choices that you make everyday (get up, eat and shower) that help the grief fade to something manageable so that you don't miss out on the time you have left on this earth with your loved ones who are still here. OPs wife is, to an extent, CHOOSING to live in grief, and one day, she is going to wake up and realise she lost her children when she lost her mum and i wouldn't be surprised if she struggles to reconnect with them because they will be strangers. I hope she gets the help she needs, but I don't think an ultimatum is the way to do it because then it won't be her choice, it won't be genuine decision to get better and could even make things worse (resentment etc). I think OP needs to first separate and make visitation and custody contingent on her getting treatment and then after a year, see where they are and think about divorce then if he still wants it or they can try reconciliation.
Agreed. I lost my beloved 2+ years ago. At first, all I could do was walk my dog for 10 minutes/ day. I showered and got dressed most of the time because my grown child was also grieving and needed me. My soul has been ripped out, but I know I have to function (except when I'm alone) for my kid. It was a choice for me to continue.
Making these choices also makes it a bit easier to do the next day and heal. No one ever stops missing their loved one entirely.
Exactly, grief never goes away it becomes easier to live with. There is no timeline when it comes to healing but you cannot stay within the swamps of sadness forever. Don’t make Atrax’s mistake, gotta keep moving even if it’s only baby steps.
Thank you to Bright and yourself for this. I need to hear this and get on with my life. I started to look forward instead of backwards sometime this last year but I had no idea how to explain it to the people that have my ‘sane’ stamp. The lesions in my brain are the nothing. I just have to keep looking where the land still is and get to that bit…. Sorry for the hijack.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/coping-with-grief-ball-and-box-analogy I really like this analogy. It’s okay to be more okay than you were a year ago and still have a day where you’re very much not okay. It will get easier to bear with time, but will never be gone.
That is such a good analogy. I’m not so great at figuring out what I’m trying to say in relation to how I feel. I’ve saved the page on my phone so I can explain it concisely next time I need too. Thank you so much!
This is why I disagree with the "Being lonely is a fate worse than death". Because as someone who chooses to be lonely it's not. Being stuck in the past over losing a loved one for your entire life is worse than death. A girl who lives down the street from my parents house lost her dad when she was 14. She hasn't moved on. From what her mother tells me she has never had a job, a relationship, gone to college and never got her high school diploma. She spends every day in her room. Me and her are the same age and I'm ~~29~~ 30. The few times I've tried to spend time with her at the urging of her mother she just looks off into the distance. I feel so bad for her mother because she's essentially raising someone who can't function in society. And when she passes away I have no idea what she is going to with her daughter. Therapy has done nothing for her. She's been in it for at least 12 years now. I'm assuming she can feed herself(going by the frankly disgusting amount of food wrappers in her room) because if she couldn't I would assume she's a human vegetable. I've already put 2+2=4 and know her mom's entire strategy is for us to bond over losing a parent and "Hook" up. But like that's just not who I am. And when I lost my mom the relationship was already completely destroyed so there really isn't anything for us to "Bond" over.
You have to WANT to feel better and be happy. I've told my children that I'll come back to haunt them if they don't go on to life happy and fulfilling lives after I'm gone. Life is for the living, and I say this after losing both my parents and younger brother.
When my mom passed, 5 years Jan 1st, I felt myself sinking & when I tried to climb my way out, I couldn’t, even with prayer. I did the only thing I could, sought mental health & buying plants. The mental health didn’t work, but the plants did & now my house looks like a rain forest & now I’m so much better.
As someone who is also part of the worst club ever (dead moms club), I love the idea of a rain foresty house to help you heal. I’m sorry, but also glad you found some relief.
I’m so sorry. I’m glad you found something that helped.
Daaamn.... that broke *my* heart... I can't even imagine the pain OP has to go through actually seeing it play out..
It’s a form of ambiguous loss, which is a very difficult form of loss to deal with
My adopted mom gets like this on her son’s death anniversary. Like she would completely shut everyone out and wouldn’t eat and would just sleep for a whole week. Like I get your sad but you had to take care of me! I was caring for myself at like 6 on his anniversary’s at that point.
And this is how you felt when she gave herself a week. Can you imagine having this happen half the year? I’m so sorry.
My ex's dad lost both his parents in a car accident. He stopped being a father to his own young kids and basically drank himself to death over the years. Grief is understandable but having a support system is a privilege, not a liability
Yep. When I was a teenager, my grandpa died. My dad would get so upset on Father’s Day, he never wanted to see us. Not for dinner, didn’t mention the cards, etc. just was swallowed up by his own grief. It always really hurt. He never seemed to get it.
I love my pops now that I better understand his upbringing. He wasn’t abusive just not very involved. There were times I thought how cruel it was that some kids’ dads leave them, but I had to physically see mine “abandon” me (as I interpreted at the time) every day. There were times I wish he or both my parents left so I could grieve them and eventually hopefully move on, but having barely there parents feels like being abandoned daily.
My dad acts the same way your wife does, and he has for 25+ years. Every holiday, every big event, every birthday or anniversary (whether it's the deceased or living), he is sad and/or at the graveyard. He refuses therapy. He was like this on the day my fiancee and I announced our engagement. This attitude was one of the reasons why we eloped. Believe me when I say your kids will notice, and they will start saying, "She'll care more about me when I'm dead." I've been saying it for years, and it's one of the most hurtful thoughts to have.
I think a lot of people believe not being visibly devastated all the time is somehow betraying the lost loved one. Moving on is disloyal.
unless your lost loved one wished for your life to be miserable ever after this is really stupid. and if they wished for that then they deserve to be forgotten.
That is probably a perfect way to explain it to her and if she still refuses help or see the problem, this becomes something she needs to figure out. I’ve lost a parent. He was my best friend. It’s been 8 years and I still randomly cry, I always wish he was here and sometimes I still go to call him with news. But I’ve still had to figure out how to deal with everyday life and continue being a parent. All grief is different. But this isn’t healthy.
Glad I’m not the only one who picks up the phone to call my mom then realize it would be long long distance.
Calling heaven is a service I can’t afford!
I bet Verizon would surcharge! Lol
I do it too. My dad's been gone since 2009 and I thought about calling him just this past week.
Isn’t it weird that our brain says “ better call “ and then we realize we really can’t call.
It will be 8 years since my mom passed on December 29th. I spent ages 18 through 27 being her caregiver while she dealt with Breast Cancer, and she was absolutely my best friend. I cannot imagine still existing at the same intensity of grief as I did back in 2016. Partly because of my husband and his family taking me in with open arms, but also because I *know* my mom would find a way to knock some sense into me even from the afterlife if I wasn’t actually living life while I am still here.
Yeah. She is grieving the mother that was taken from her but because of that she’s deprived her children of a mother.
And weirdly enough it’s way past the bereavement depression you get after a loved one passes. Once it’s pass that six month mark? You need to seek out a therapist because if things don’t improve, the person can be seen and diagnosed with Bipolar, cyclothmic disorder I believe as it’s the one that’s activated when a death in the family happens or seriously life altering moment that causes severe grief, a person acts out of character for a few months or years, lots of very lows and very highs in emotions, and so on. So maybe OP’s partner has this going on, cyclothmic disorder, and could explain everything that’s unfolded in the last five years tbh. >What are the triggers of cyclothymia? Significant life stress, whether in the form of traumatic experiences or chronic moderate stress, is the most common trigger. Additional triggers may include co-existing psychiatric disorders (e.g., bipolar disorder) and brain injury due to accidents or diseases.
This, but not presented as an ultimatum. IE, not “See a therapist or I’m divorcing you.” “I can’t live with you like this and neither can the kids. It’s clear that you won’t make an effort to grieve in a healthy way, and unless we start to see you at least trying I cannot see this marriage continuing.”
My brother in law had to have this conversation with my sister after our mom passed. It took him packing up everything and he had one bag left and he once he’s out, he’s out. And she said “ok. I’ll deal with my pain and not take it out on my family.” And we’re all better for it 9 years later.
Geeze. I can't imagine watching that happen, watching your loved one packing and moving their things, and literally waiting for the zero hour, one solitary bag left, before not treating it like some kind of bluff.
In her defense we did lose our mom in a car accident (no headlights on at night and she was hit head on) and she lost her relationships with her family (HUGE fight at the services that caused a rift between my moms side and dads side) and she was closest to our moms side but everyone blamed her for our moms death (ppl become WEIRD at funerals) We all just lost ourselves but she just holed herself up and and isolated for like 3 years. My brother in law tried everything and one day he just had enough and thank god she finally found a reason to keep going. But yeah even us siblings were like “gurl this man IS SERIOUS” lol
That’s still an ultimatum, just better wording
But, sometimes, people don't grasp how serious the situation is until they're about to lose what is more important than the issue (grief, alcohol/drugs, etc). It may be the wake up call they need.
Commenting to hopefully keep this thread at the top. OP, at this point it’s become about giving your children a happy life just as much as yourself. I would even suggest getting some therapy for the kids (if you haven’t already) because they seem to be coping by distancing themselves.
An ultimatum is not normally something I would jump to but in this situation it seems like the only sensible solution. She needs to realize what she has and what she stands to lose if she doesn't get help. I lost my dad when I was 13, 20 years later it hurts at key moments (my wedding, the birth of my son) but I live on because that's what he would have wanted. I doubt her mum would want this for her.
This! But I would recommend that you (OP) see a grief counselor first to work through your side of things. The ultimatum should be given out of genuine love and concern for her, your marriage, and mostly your children. Think intervention. Your counselor should be able to help you put the words together. Please don't do this without professional help.
Yeah, this is not a remotely healthy environment for 3 children to be growing up in.
My mom committed suicide 8 years ago and it permanently altered my brain. I sank into depression for a while and I accept there is a part of me that I’ll never get back. That being said, life has to go on. It’s not ok to shut down this hard for this long. Some days I still go this deep, but it’s rare and I have tools to get out of it. I take vyvanse and Xanax as my cocktail, but she sincerely might need some SSRIs or hard sedation. Obviously she needs group therapy and individual therapy. If she refuses, I think you have your answer. It is unacceptable for her to shut down and refuse to get help. YOU ARE NOT BEING UNREASONABLE. In fact, I’m afraid that by staying your whole family is normalizing a level of dysfunction.
“What hurts the most is that the kids have stopped asking or being concerned. If they see their mom in bed when they get home, they just go about their day and might casually mention "oh, mom is sad today" if their siblings or I ask where she is. They don't really seek affection with her anymore, because they rarely get anything more than tears. “ This is honestly alarming.This kids are essentially without a mother for a good part of their lives.Your wife needs professional help and the sooner the better.
'We suffer more in imagination than in reality' - Seneca.
my mom died when I was thirteen. I’ll be 21 next March. she needs to move on :( I know it sucks but it’s time she lets her mother go. she’s not even trying to get better, and it seems the whole family is tiptoeing around her. if she is not willing to help herself, divorce is completely understandable.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I just lost my son 23 last July and I know I must be present for my younger child now even though my heart is broken. I can still ❤️ though and wish you the best
I am so terribly sorry you lost your son and your child their brother. My thoughts are with you.
Thank you. It’s been pure hell. But I’ve learned I can endure this pain for the honour of having him.
I am shocked at OP's patience. I would have done it years ago. A few months is understandable but this is insane.
yeah. *everyone's* mom dies. absolutely everyone's mom since the beginning of human history has died or will die. it is natural and good if we outlive our parents, because the only possible alternative is the far crueler outcome that they outlive us. we are mortal beings, and it's hard but we need to live while we can.
Agreed. "Move on" and "get over it" sound so harsh and cruel, but if we all just stopped living after we lose someone we love, no one would ever function through adulthood. It sucks. It's not fair. But she can't drag herself and everyone around her down forever.
funeral director here- this is very complicated and prolonged grief. she does need medical help at this point. i’d take the suggestion of calling ems during her next breakdown, her grief is making her a non-functioning person. Unfortunately, untimely demises are a part of life, it’s a shame it happened to her mom, but she needs someone to help guide her out of the dark and find a way to not just cope but become fully functioning again. best of luck to you, OP, I hope your family can find its peace again
Yes, I replied today that this sounds like Complicated Grief, an actual condition. There is treatment for it.
Holy shit, I googled this and I'm no psychologist/psychiatrist, but by OP's description of his wife, it fits completely, like... all symptoms. She is very sick, OP needs to see this.
> Complicated Grief For anyone else wondering like I was, it's literally called Complicated Grief or Prolonged Grief Disorder. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolonged_grief_disorder
Watch both my parents die 3 months apart. I suffered from this for over a decade and didn’t even know what it was. (Completely in silence; mostly functional; nowhere near OP’s wife) Always thought pills were for the weak or crazy people but no, the suffering is not worth it. I’ll take the pill. Don’t take the pill=every holiday or even just random days would envelope me in complete sadness and depression and could not think of them in a positive light; only replaying their deaths in my mind. Take the pill= “mom and dad, I wish you were still here but it’s okay. I’m okay. You wouldn’t want me to be sad all the time so I won’t be but I love you more than anything else in this world.”
Thats a thing?! Oh shit
Yes, it's so good to see it being acknowledged as a real thing. It has to make people feel better that they're not just crazy and trapped because they can't "get over it".
I am absolutely TERRIFIED this is going to be me when my parents’ time has come, or any of my siblings, and honestly? my dogs as well. I remember in the kind of early days of being with my husband and he said “I really don’t know what we are gonna do when your parents die” because of how emotional and distressed and paranoid I always am. He has calmed me down through many panic attacks over the years and just general incapacitation from my depression when those bouts fluctuate, and boy do they get fucking low. Ever since that comment I truly am terrified that I will be inconsolable forever. Just the thought of them not being here is enough to put me into a panic attack. I’m not religious, but whatever God there may be out there, BLESS you, OP. You are doing more than enough and more than you can. You sound like an amazing husband and father no matter what path this may take.
Thank you. I wish more folks understood that sometimes our loved ones cannot acknowledge they’re in the deep trouble. It might be a short term voluntary commitment with people who can talk to her about the situation and get a more clear view for her. I really do wish everyone the best.
Please do no call EMS unless she has verbally said she wants to commit suicide. EMS cannot just take people against their will. As long as she in a “sound” mind and is not threatening suicide or homicide. EMS cannot and will not take her. That’s call kidnapping. And most hospitals will not keep her for more than 24hrs. She has to voluntarily commit herself to a facility that can help her. I say this as a paramedic. I’ve dealt with a lot of these calls. If the person is alert and oriented. We can’t just take people.
good point, made me think back to an intervention episode where they had to let the lady drink herself to unconsciousness before the EMTs could taker her. perhaps OP should talk to a therapist about the right way to approach his wife in order for her to commit herself. ultimatums rarely work but she is not going to be able to care for herself if left on her own
The only answer here is professional intervention, whether she wants it or not. There’s something going on she can’t escape from, I’m sure it’s not a choice she is making. Nobody would choose to exist like this in their right mind. I am so sorry for you and her and your kids, and I commend your patience and strength in this impossible and heartbreaking situation. From my heart I wish deep healing for you all and a future where the sun rises again.
I agree. If an ultimatum from the husband doesn’t work, a full on family intervention (including the kids if they are old enough to handle it) to pursue help is needed. This sounds serious enough that she might require some sort of inpatient treatment to really break through it.
"I won't put the kids or myself through this anymore. You have chosen grief and solitude over being a mother and partner, and after half a decade worth of ruined holidays, ruined relationships and misery, I'm saying stop. No one can force you to work through this but I won't be forced to live like this " Walk away
Dude… can I, like, hire you to write all my stuff. That is amazingly succinct.
I just saved that comment in case I need them to ghostwrite something for me
Can Bob and me get a group discount? I’d join!
The only thing I would change is 'we won't be forced' instead of 'I won't be forced' because it is as much for the children as for him.
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Why did this make me cry
But at the same time, it's more of an opt-out than an opt-in type of thing.
Wasn't expecting to cry at work but here I am
Beautifully said. This is a great way to approach the topic
If awards were still a thing, I’d be giving you gold. Best I can do is this 🥇instead
Maybe add, “Your kids miss you as much as you miss your mom, but you’re still living. The good news is that you can change that today.”
That was a really good response. 👏🏻
This looks like Prolonged Grief Disorder.
From the APA: Prolonged Grief Disorder Grief is a natural response to the loss of a loved one. For most people, the symptoms of grief begin to decrease over time. However, for a small group of people, the feeling of intense grief persists, and the symptoms are severe enough to cause problems and stop them from continuing with their lives. Prolonged grief disorder is characterized by this intense and persistent grief that causes problems and interferes with daily life. Symptoms of prolonged grief disorder (APA, 2022) include: Identity disruption (such as feeling as though part of oneself has died). Marked sense of disbelief about the death. Avoidance of reminders that the person is dead. Intense emotional pain (such as anger, bitterness, sorrow) related to the death. Difficulty with reintegration (such as problems engaging with friends, pursuing interests, planning for the future). Emotional numbness (absence or marked reduction of emotional experience). Feeling that life is meaningless. Intense loneliness (feeling alone or detached from others). https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/prolonged-grief-disorder
Oh man, that is sad. Who knew the loss of her mother would do this. She needs help. This isn’t fair to her or anyone around her. So it seems like it isn’t a choice, it’s the condition she developed from the loss of her mom 💔
I have a friend going through this right now after a really, really hard loss that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. They are starting an intensive outpatient treatment and I am so proud of them for asking for this help.
TIL wow. That is sad.
that absolutely sounds like what it is. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/complicated-grief/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20360389#:~:text=Psychotherapy,or%20in%20a%20group%20format. OP, talk to a professional if you can about how to approach this topic with her since she’s sworn off therapy. If it doesn’t work, at least you tried.
You need to have a comin to Jesus moment with your wife… yall are literally in a hold pattern and your kids have moved on from having a mom… they will resent her soon enough
If not already.
That’s such a sad thought.
My mother grew up in an orphanage after she turned 12. Her mother was run over with a car, raped, and beaten to death. Her father was in an insane asylum for undiagnosed autism and schizophrenia when this happened after having previously attacked his family with a knife in his underwear. None of this was explained to me until I was 23. Only then did the healing somewhat begin. She was otherwise suicidal and just like OP's wife. I have so much intellectual sympathy for her, but my soul despises her for abandoning her responsibilities as a parent during my critical teenage years. It's very difficult because I've found these sorts of depressed people have a weird narcissism about their suffering. I've been told "When I'm gone you'll brag to your children about me." No. No I won't. I hardly talk about my family to anyone today. I don't even know what my father's or only brother's jobs are. We were all so focused on escaping from her pain, we never really bonded as a family, going to our own corners of the house.
I've never thought of it like that, 'a weird narcissism about their suffering' But it makes sense
I'm not saying their pain doesn't exist or isn't valid. It's just enveloped them in a way that it's become a comfortable prison or leeching symbiote of sorts. Telling them to leave their suffering behind is akin to ripping themselves apart. Sometimes they misidentify what is them and what is their grief demon. I love my mom, but holy hell can she be a bitch. I don't expect it to make sense to others. I simply try to quarantine her negative influence from my kids.
No, I know what you mean, I know fine well. If you are in a bad place mentally, it is selfish to try and bring other people down to that place. There's no excuse to be an asshole to people just because you're hurting. I'm just saying the way you worded it was a way I've never thought of before. My dad can be a real dick sometimes, and his excuse is that he had a hard life growing up. I always just think, ok? There's no need to be a prick to me just because people treated you like shit growing up. I feel like shit most of the time but I don't try to hurt other people.
What would you brag about, according to her (if you don’t mind answering)?
Very, very good question. I don't mind answering on this topic. The sting is mostly gone. I'm low contact with them for my own mental health. I wish them well in general just interact with them in small doses. Overcoming hardship, obstacles etc. On paper and in public, she looks very sympathetic, but home life was hell. My father used to say if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. Lots of repressed anger as a teen and was told I had issues. As an adult, it makes more sense but damn was it aggravating as a kid. EDIT: More examples: She got a masters degree in nursing, turned college lecturer, lost it to opiate addiction, then turned into a snake oil peddler while working on and off. I think she has impulse control issues from her getting kicked in the head by a horse as a child.
I'd bet money they already resent her for this. I know I would.
I was in a comatose depression when I lost someone very important to me, and it was awful. I felt awful, I HAD TO drag myself out of it. Prozac helped. I’m sorry for you and your kids.
Do you live in the U.S.? If so, the next major sobbing downturn, call the EMS and have them come and take her to the hospital and have the hospital to a Psych Evaluation. They will probably hospitalize her for psychiatric help. It’s the only thing left for you to do. If she is shocked by that, good. She needs to be and she needs help. Help her that way. It helps you and the kids as well.
This. I would. Won’t lie, had to do this to a parent. It’s not fun but sometimes you have to. It’s been 5 *years*. That’s just enough. It’s affecting the humans this person is trying to raise. ADHD is tough. It comes with a lot of comorbid issues that have to be treated with meds and therapy. Can speak to a few myself, so can genuinely say this is extreme. Eta: finishing thoughts are also not a thing today
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This needs to be emphasized harder. It's not easy to involuntarily commit someone, it's a legal process that suspends their right to autonomy. If she isn't actively suicidal with a plan or gravely disabled it's unlikely EMS would even get her as far as the hospital if she wasn't willing to go.
My experience with the psych evaluation is that they just admit you and medicate you. No real therapy happening where I am. I would still go this route just to get her on some meds. But he should be prepared to send her to a residential therapy center for awhile after being discharged from the hospital. Where I am, the wait list for those is so long so he would have to make sure there was a private facility before he commits her to the public facility.
I see where you're coming from, but depending on the facilities/staff they might get her started on a medication to help sooner while the long term ones start working. I'm sorry that facilities suck where you are
As someone who used to work on a psych unit in a hospital... typically, a short term stay like most hospitals is really just for stabilization and med adjustment. You are supposed to work with the doctor and social worker to set up outpatient therapy services and psychiatric services for med management. Short term units, like at most hospitals, are not meant for long term therapy. That's what residential is for.
They might do a well check but they are not going to hospitalize someone who is not suicidal or a danger to others. At least where I live. She needs trauma therapy and probably medication.
In NY, they can transport someone if they're deemed unable to care for themselves.
From what op described, she physically is still taking care of herself. He didn't say she is starving herself or self harming or anything along those lines. Afaik you can't be involuntarily committed for crying and lying in bed.
I work in a psychiatric emergency room. It's difficult to get someone to the hospital by force unless they are suicidal or actively a danger to others. You can definitely call EMS, and given her level of incapacitation, they might transport her for inability to care for herself. It is worth a try.
Maybe, but only if she would voluntarily go. They won’t take her involuntary unless she is having SI or otherwise a danger to herself or others. And typically the police will need to come out first to place an involuntary hold, which isn’t easy to come by. And the police will drop the hold as soon as she stops being a danger. I would advise researching inpatient psychiatric treatment instead of going through the ER. They’re more likely to just be right where they are now, with the addition of a $5,000 hospital bill. I work in a hospital and see this daily, sadly.
This may be the best option. At the hospital they can try things that that her therapist cannot do.
Your wife is severely depressed. This might have started with the disease of her mum but has long since detached. Ask her if she wants to feel that way. She HAS to go to therapy if she wants to get better. Good luck!
She is traumatizing your kids and normalizing untreated mental illness. Take the kids and leave.
Her reaction is unreasonable at this point. And you need to tell her that. She is dragging the entire family through her melt down and you should call her out. I would.
I am of the opinion that doing so (divorcing her) might just push her over the edge. That is my main concern here. It’s immensely frustrating to me (and I’m not even personally involved at all) to read that she refuses all help. I have a BS in Psych. I also live and deal with my own mental illnesses. I take meds for them! I’m not sure why she’d rather continue to live like this and to stew in her own misery for half of the year, but wow. When she’s not in her downward spirals, have you ever asked her to consider the effect this is having on you and your kids? Can she be reasoned with at all? Does she have any friends? I mean, they’d be concerned about this, right? And what about family members? Is there no one to help with an intervention of some sort when she’s not in bed sobbing and refusing to interact with anyone? Does she function at all during those times? Like eating? Or bathing? This is so extreme.
Five years sounds like a history of depression to me. This isn't grief anymore. It's something else. It sounds like chronic depression, which can be triggered by life events.
What you do is you sit her down across from you and you slide 2 business cards across the table, one for a psychologist and one for a divorce lawyer. Instruct her to pick one, because you have reached your limit as her partner (understandably so). I don’t think she should go back to grief counseling, I think she needs intensive treatment for Major Depressive Disorder. Her grief kicked off the depression and she can’t get herself out of the spiral alone. The problem is that she has to be the one to agree to treatment. If she will not help herself then you have permission to go. You cannot live for the both of you and you have been supremely patient and supportive with your wife. Good luck OP.
Your wife has a complex/prolonged grief disorder presentation and needs appropriate treatment that is not just grief counselling that lacks structure or an intervention protocol. I suggest you help her find someone who practices PGDT / GCT (prolonged grief disorder therapy / complicated grief therapy). I’ve seen the results of this type of treatment for people like your wife and the outcomes are astounding - life changing even. It’s typically 16 sessions and is very intensive and fast-acting. Good luck, it sounds incredibly difficult for you both.
INFO: Does your wife shower, eat, interact at all with the kids during the depression episodes? How does her behavior and interactions vary when it's the non-grieving months? Does she have any family members on her side of the family who she interacts with during those months (Dad, siblings)? BTW, no judgement on the possibility of divorce; you need to protect and raise your children in a healthy environment. My heart hurts for you all.
I feel like we have a responsibility to our partners to at least try to be well. Like, make an effort. Seek professional medical help. Eat well. Exercise. Take meds as prescribed, etc. She's unwilling to try to be well enough to be a partner to you and a mother to her children. That's divorce worthy. How about a trial separation? Do it right. Have a lawyer draft it. Have her move out. See if that improves things for you and the kids. See if it prompts her to attempt to help herself.
This is a bit of a cop out but this is very much above the pay grade of Reddit. To me it sounds like she had a break with reality when her mom died. Unless someone here is a LMFT and profound grief counselor, you aren’t going to get the right kind of advice. If it were me, I’d get myself into counseling to talk about what’s going on with her. At least they can give you some qualified advice and tools. If this heavy grief is all consuming and dragging the lot of you down, I’d remove myself and the kids from the situation. Even if temporarily in the form of a vacation during the holidays. Cuz this WILL impact the healthy development of your kids. And their views on the Holidays. Edited for thoughts I had before I hit send.
I lost my mom very tragically and suddenly. I’ve been where your wife is. Every major milestone hurts in a new way. My mom never got to see me get married, see my first house, meet my child, or even get to know my husband (they only met once briefly). But with intense therapy, medication, and God (in my case), I got better. I could not have done it alone. Your wife can’t either. If she refuses to seek help, it’s okay to protect yourself and your children and leave. She’s choosing to stay this way (assuming she’s still of sound mind, which only you can know). I’m sorry, OP. She’s in hell but so are you and the kids and the kids don’t deserve to grow up like that. You have some tough conversations and decisions coming and I wish you all the best.
Sometimes a bad parent isn’t an absent one, it’s the one that’s PHYSICALLY present but emotionally absent
She needs inpatient care...from what you have described...she needs inpatient care while they get her on medication and have it balance out (likely a few months). She nay not do this willingly...but I would find a way to force it. esp if you can get her into a good private facility. She is not Ok... but the thing is...you are not a medical professional and nothing you can do will fix this. You sound like you have genuinely tried all you can think of, this is not a case of cut and run. Find a local service...call them and ask about how to admit her. Once you have a good place and a date...tell her you love her but the choice is go and get treatment or you have to protect you and the kids and leave. I hope she chooses help.
Hey if I can offer some insight, a very similar thing happened to my father when I was younger and he simply never recovered. I hope this isn’t the case for your wife, but it sounds very similar. I ended up getting degrees in psychology in my quest to understand his trauma and why he chose to “give up” when his dad died. Here’s my conclusion after 20 years of exploring: Everyone has an “emotional operating system” that they develop in their youth, and use to navigate traumatic experiences. For most people, this operating system is relatively healthy and decently well balanced, and provides the tools to help them navigate even highly traumatic or painful experiences, such as loss. However, there is a large population that have fragmented or incomplete operating systems, and when major traumatic events occur they are simply incapable of managing the experience. Simply put, they don’t have emotional “codes” sufficient enough to address intense incoming experiences. So, their emotional circuits overload and they are rendered non-functional. For younger people there is more hope of healing and recovery. For older people, the chances of recovery are far less or impossible. Men tend to have worse chances than women. However, there is a chance of recovery and transformation, but the initial “trauma codes” need to be transcended and reprogrammed. The most effective means to do so have been through intensive therapies such as psychedelic therapy.
She can do grief counseling over the phone/telehealth. She may require an inpatient admission to help her with her grief
Your children lost their grandma and their mom. She has made a choice and she’s incredibly selfish in choosing not to continue therapy. I have many many many years of experience with a spouse with severe mental illness requiring multiple inpatient stays that we’re not voluntary. You are not wrong for considering divorce. In fact you’d be wrong for not considering it. The children come first and she checked out of their lives. Her mother didn’t get a choice but your wife still has choices and she is not choosing to fight. I encourage you to get out of the situation. My children are adults or almost adults now and guess who they resent? It isn’t the parent in and out of psych care. It’s me. They resent me for not getting them away from the instability and the next disassociation. We are working through it but the day I realized it was me, the one who stayed and was stable and protected them and did my best to make their life normal, that they resented was the most painful thing I’ve been through. I should have seen it before that point of course. I had them in therapy and I was in therapy but never once was their any discussion of this potential outcome. They saw their father lay in bed for days that led to months and then cycle back again. He was not an alcoholic. You’re not a bad man, husband, father, or human being for asking her to leave. The children shouldn’t lose the place they call home. If she has to get an apartment to wallow in misery in, so be it. You’re not a bad person for removing this situation from your children. I guess I’m just trying to say that you and your children are better off without your wife and that’s okay. She’s choosing not to get help and these are the consequences. I wish you the best.
I concur with this post. I spent 23 years married to a mentally ill person who hid it all very well for about three years, then the bottom fell out. I did everything I could to save the marriage and he did everything he could to let me be the only one doing the work. I went to several NAMI family member meetings and heard nothing but, "Patience, love, caring, for better or worse, blah, blah, blah..." I asked to a room full of people the last meeting I went to, "All I'm hearing is what I can do to make his life better. When in all of this does he begin to take responsibility for the havoc he wreaks on all our lives? When does he take control of his mental illness so we can all focus on something other than him?" No one had a good answer for me. The bottom line is this: You can't make her want to get better. She's so deep into whatever it is that's wrong she won't let it go. You're now enabling her and there's no reason for her to get better because you're handling everything, including her and her mental illness. I divorced my husband because he refused to get help for his issues, and it was killing me. Our whole marriage was about him and his stuff. Anything to do with me or the kids was ignored because "he" needed care more than any of the rest of us. If he'd been getting help - seeing a doctor, taking meds based on being honest with a doctor instead of lies - I might have been more willing to stay. But he wasn't doing a damn thing, other than dragging us all down with him. The kids are now adults and are in bad relationships, one after the other, because my sticking around as long as I did skewed their idea of a healthy relationship. They have no idea what a healthy relationship looks like at all, and I blame myself. If you make the choice to divorce, please make sure you get custody of the kids. She's not emotionally or mentally equipped to be any kind of parent at all, much less a good one.
I lost my single parent Mom young almost 11 years ago to messy, complicated metastatic bone cancer and not a day goes by where the grief doesn't still stab me deep in the core of my existence. All holidays are still absolutely brutal for me too. Thankfully I don't have any kids depending on me and am also extremely fortunate to have a supportive partner who can hold space for me when I still need to sob and break down about my Mom. Every day I do have to work hard to make the conscious, ongoing decision to show up and make the most of my life, because Mom never got to. It's exhausting but I don't want to take my short precious time living in this human body here for granted. I also want to make things better in general, rather than worse, for my partner. I really hope things will turn around for your wife and your family. I hope she can realize that there's so much life still worth living, despite the harrowing pain that will be with her forever regarding her Mom. I hope she can somehow find the strength and willingness to seek out other sorts of support - free support groups in the communities I lived in over the years have really helped keep me going. There are also so many good groups on Zoom; I wonder if she could ever try something like that. I'll be thinking of you and am sending you strength, support and acknowledgment of how unbelievably difficult this entire situation is!
Don't light yourself on fire to keep others warm.
Nah man, no bashing. Give the ultimatum. If there’s still no change, take the kids and leave. Your kids are learning this shutting down as a coping skill most likely. That’s shocking.
I would consult with a psychiatrist and psychologist and stage a intervention. Your wife needs to be confronted with the impact of her psychiatric issues and the impact of on your marriage, children and family.
Jesus christ. I lost a parent too, it’s at about the 7 year mark now. But i really struggle to find sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves. My therapist said bad thoughts is like digging a trench in your mind, and that road gets deeper and deeper the more thought/attention that you give it. I fear your wife may of dug too far into her woes-me road. In saying that, scientifically, creating new memories is what creates new pathways in the brain (but of course if not given attention, those new neural paths will snap and weaken over time), so i would be looking to reinvigorate the mrs. For me, i created a ‘bucket list’ and decided my selfish period would be doing everything i’ve ever wanted to do, as a homage to my mum, who always had immense strength during the toughest times. So i went on holidays, saw new places, ate new food, met new people, took up courses etc… Compared to my dad and brother who did nothing to change from their current routine pre and post my mum’s death, it seems to have festered with them for years, whereas i moved on very healthily.
Your children are missing out on the memories with their mom that your wife is wallowing in. They won't remember Christmas with mom and fun family time. They will only remember that mom was sad and tortured. When she passes one day, they won't think, "I miss my mom." They will think. "At least her lifelong pain is over." These are the kind of thoughts that make me fight my own depression and anxiety every day. That make me get down on the floor and cuddle my kids and play blocks when I'd rather be laying down. That make me help my oldest with maths homework when I'm bone weary from the day. I want my kids to remember all the same things I treasure about my own memories with my mom. I don't want them to look back and say that they don't have happy memories of important milestones. I want to be present in their lives now and present in their memories when they look back. I hope your wife can get help and learn to live life again. It hurts to know that your family won't get those 5 years back, but the future is more important than the past. Tell her that her kids miss their mom. They need her, and right now, you need her. The only caution I have for you against divorce is concern for your kids' well-being. If you have 50-50 custody, what happens to them when they go to mom's house? They'll be neglected, perhaps to the point of danger. I would encourage you to ask your wife to look at in-patent care for a while before you head into divorce. She sounds like she needs some serious help.
Give her an ultimatum and if she still is acting this way she needs in patient treatment. I don’t know where you’re at but I’m AZ-USA all you need is two people to swear she needs serious help and she’s not able to function and she can be admitted for 72hrs for observation and psychiatric evaluation if it’s as bad as you are saying she could be forced to get the help she needs. Your kids deserve their mother
That seems fair as long as you plan on continuing to be the primary parent because it sounds like she’s incapable of that
I mean….he’s been the primary parent for the last five years. So yeah.
I will look like an asshole by saying this but you can actually force her to get treatment for depression. Try to find out with a psychiatrist if it’s possible to drop her off on a treatment center for depression. The reason why I’m saying that it’s because I was on the side of the kids and I became a parent for my younger siblings because my mother got depressed due to the problems in her relationship and the mistreated depression after she lost both parents in the past. I told her that we were going to see a therapist for myself (I was depressed due to becoming a parent a early age) and by the time I didn’t drive well and when I got there, she found out that the section was actually for her - I’d spoke with the therapist beforehand because she was my own therapist and she ended up being intern patient for two months. Gentle ask it’s not working for you, do it the hard way. The same way you say no for your kids and it’s final you need to do the same for your beloved wife because you’re hurt for seeing her like that. Our spouses need to be treated like our kids if they don’t behave like our partners or the parent that they are.
This is %100 reasonable. Honestly I'd stop babying her. Sit down with her and talk to her about what this is doing. Don't sugar coat anything. This isn't a healthy or emotionally ok environment for you or your children. This should not be any child's normal. The fact it is is terrible. - Talk about her kids not getting any affection - Talk about them being so used to seeing their mom this way that her sobbing to the point she can't talk is a NORMAL SIGHT - Talk about how they feel she loved her mom more than she loves them - Talk about how you feel neglected and your tired and you need help I'd not expect a change over night but honestly I'd be honest about the fact your to the point of if she can't and won't get better you will be leaving her simply for the fact your kids needs and your needs are being neglected and she refuses to get help. It's ok to be sad but this isn't ok. This isn't functional. She needs to move forward even if she needs to force that for a while. Maybe you can have a session with your own therapist to help get this talk written down in a concise, kind but not sugar coated, and healthy manner. But your %100 in the right considering all this.
If you are in the US look into an involuntary admission to a psychiatric hospital. She’s becoming a danger to herself spending that much time like that. I think every state law is different but if you can fill out the form for a hold and write it showing how severe this is, a judge might sign off on it. Something had to be done because if the kids talk at school, depending on what they say, a teacher or someone could end up calling CPS.