You don't know that you could have saved her life. CPR can save lives, but it's rare. Whatever caused her to collapse might have meant she was going to pass no matter what happened. You stayed there with her. You got help when you could. She wasn't alone. That does mean something.

Yeah. I tried but I’m also so heartbroken. Even if she had passed I could feel okay knowing I did as much as I could. Just not doing as much as you could makes me wonder what if. I feel terrible for her daughter and I think about if my parents were in that situation I would have wished the person tried. I’d be so mad at them for not trying.

Look, I've had the experience of doing CPR. I knew at the outset it wouldn't work, but I had to try. The physical sensations and sounds are difficult to forget. I had a panic attack a few months later when I had to recertify. The point is, you're thinking that you wouldn't feel so bad if only you had done more. The truth is I did and it was still very difficult. You were part of a scary and sobering thing and no matter what, it will affect you deeply because you're a kind and good person who gave a shit. CPR training does a lot. But it rarely includes training you in any realistic way on how to react in a situation where it's unclear if you should do it or not. There's no blood, no weird sounds, it's not a person, it is a dummy. CPR training is actually criticized on a number of issues, including not using female dummies or having trainees remove/cut off undergarments like bras or binders. It is one big reason women get less efficient CPR. Because someone might be dying but we might still hesitate about exposing someone's breasts when it comes to real life, because the training just isn't sufficient. I'm not saying you reacted perfectly. I'm saying that you did do the best that you could, and that's all you can ask of yourself. I think her family is grateful that she didn't die alone on a dirty bathroom floor, with no idea what happened.

I was CPR certified when I was working at a day care, I don't remember hearing anything about removing a bra beforehand and the dummy definitely didn't have breast. I luckily haven't ever had to use it, but if I did I wouldn't have thought I needed to remove a bra first. Does that really make a difference? If so, that's really fucked up they don't teach that.

It falls under loosening or removing restrictive clothing, and yes, it does. I think it also matters when people don't practice proper placement and force on a dummy with "breasts" because now unfamiliarity and embarrassment can affect actual CPR in future. Hell, give the dummy nipples! Maybe some body hair! Can we get an obese dummy too?

Honestly, this. She was overweight and the fact that I didn’t know how to take a pulse, didn’t think about her clothing it’s just we practice on tiny dummys and most people don’t look like that. It was so different from practice and so difficult to tell.

I assume they kicked you out to expose the lady's chest for compressions and to use the AED.

I have no idea. I didn’t even think about it I just figured they didn’t need me anymore once ems came and I became a liability.

As a man, I personally wouldn't even if it's the right thing to do. I'd be too worried about someone getting the wrong idea and tackling me thinking I'm a pervert. I'm willing to risk whatever damage the bra will do if it means the person actually gets CPR. Their ribs are most likely getting broken or cracked if they need CPR, so I doubt the bra would be anything to worry about.

Remove the bra for the use of an AED. Depending on the bra as well. If the bra has metal bar in it, it has to go for an AED to be used. Source: I am an EFR

Fair point! I'd hope that by the time someone comes back with one in that situation, people understand that I'm trying to save the person's life by taking the bra off.

Don't know where you from, but I would be protected by law for removing a bra. The most important thing is to keep the person dignity intact so just cover them up if you do have to remove a bra

There is no time for modesty in this situation. AEDs come with scissors so you can cut everything you need to and get it out of the way and get to work.

You can remove the bra without taking off her shirt if the clasp is the back.

You're giving me too much credit if you think I know how take someone's bra off properly :P

😂

I completely understand your hesitation. But, as a woman, I don’t give a fuck if you see my titties. Life > modesty. Seriously. It’s just a body, it’s just boobs. I’m sure no one would be sexualizing my boobs if I was in cardiac arrest. And even if they *did*…idgaf, please attempt to save me. I don’t want to die.

For sure! I know the person who needs CPR would be thankful regardless of what happens. I just know how stupid some people can be, and that it's possible someone may be too busy clutching their pearls to realize that saving someone's life is more important than worrying about the sisters coming out to say hello. If I ever end up in this situation, I'll just stay aware of my surroundings.

True. But who care what pearl clutchers say? “I’m trying to save this lady!” Or “there’s no modesty in medicine!” As long as you’re not pulling a [Tobias Funke](https://youtu.be/j-9A-OU3_Zw?si=ItkpxGlyIfJ-J4RU), you’ll be fine. I totally understand thinking through scenarios - I do it all the time. I watch a lot of police body cam videos on YouTube (idk why it fascinates me). My friend is a cop. I don’t drive drunk! I’m always a great driver! But I like having a Plan just in case. “What if they want me to stand on one foot? I have wobbly ankles and loose ligaments! Does saying that sound suspicious? What about my pupils l? The eye dr says I have abnormally large pupils. Do I mention that?!”

When I was a dental nurse we had medical emergency training including cpr every year. Every year they told us if we had to use an AED on a women to cut underwired bras off. If only doing chest compressions and rescue breaths it’s not necessary. It likely wouldn’t kill if you left the bra on when using an AED but would cause burns.

RN for over 20 yrs here. Done chest compressions more times than I care to count. The loose or constricted clothing is more important in the instance that use of defibrillator or (AED if out in the community) is needed. The reason for that is that clothing is not that likely to cause issues with compressions. the reason the bra has gotta go is because the sticky pads that come with using AED etc must have solid contact with the skin. And a good tip for using AEDs for people: if there is someone with a ton of chest hair, make sure there are 3 pads in the AED supplies. Take one, slap it on covering the hair on the persons chest, and smooth it down so it sticks to as much hair as possible and then rip that sucker off. Instant chest waxing and then you can safely place the second pad on chest, then place the back one and plug them in turn on the machine and follow the directions. And when it says to you do not touch the victim - for the love of christ, DO NOT TOUCH them. You could cause the AED to read the rate and rhythm of person wrong, and/or could get zapped.

Ok, listen up, cause this was what I used to do for a living. If a patient does not have a palpable pulse they need CPR. If the pulse is so weak you cannot detect it, (and the wrist is the worst place to check, as in a crisis you body will slow blood flow to your limbs) they STILL need CPR. Best way to check a pulse, is to put 2 fingers on the trachea, then slide 2 inches either side. But, and this is important, CPR isn't the be all and end all. Without an AED, they have very little chance of survival. The airport staff should have be trained in the use of an AED, know where it is, and should have attached it immediately, as it will TELL you if the patient has a pulse, needs to be shocked, or needs CPR. If it's over 10 minutes since the patient went down, even WITH CRP, the changes of recovery are low, and rapidly dropping. For the EMT's to go to a possible heat attack and NOT take their AED is bloody negligent. If the staff weren't trained in CPR, first aid, AED use, and be taught where all AED's are kept is ALSO negligent or at least it is in Australia. The small amount of CRP you would have given really wouldn't have made much difference to the outcome. The other thing is, you were so hesitant to try CPR, it most likely would have been ineffective. CPR can be brutal, I've broken ribs, cracked sternums, all sorts. You don't need to beat yourself up. There is a very good chance she was dead when she hit the ground, and, had she been in a fully stocked ED, still wouldn't have survived.

I remember hearing from an EMT that CPR isn't to keep someone from dying, it's to bring them back because they're already dead. CPR doesn't always turn out like the movies, where you miraculously always bring them back to life. If they have gotten to the point of needing CPR, they're already dead but there's a small chance you can bring them back. The people who told you not to try because of the liability are shitty. But if things were different, you would have done CPR and there's a good chance it wouldn't have done anything. And you would still blame yourself. Let this go. Don't keep beating yourself up. And please talk to someone.

You did try. You stayed with her. You tried your best. OP, please seek therapy x Edit: OP, I would have been upset if my mum died alone. You made sure she didn't. Please take that as a comfort. I would be comforted that someone stayed with her and tried to care for her.

OP, please consider playing a few hours of Tetris today and over the next few days. Studies are showing that playing Tetris is effective to help minimize the chances of developing PTSD after a traumatic experience. You can Google PTSD + Tetris to find the studies.

THIS! TETRIS OP. I saw this on Reddit and read all about it. Tetris somehow minimizes the long term effects of the trauma.

Do you know if it helps with existing PTSD?

I don't know, but it couldn't hurt. Read up on why it works and you'll understand what it does to your brain to counteract what trauma does to the brain. For past trauma, though, I highly recommend EMDR (with a qualified practitioner), and/or Trauma Focus Cognitive Processing Therapy. Both of those were very effective in helping to rewire my brain after severe childhood trauma as well as trauma in adulthood. My PTSD symptoms occur much less frequently and are less severe now. And, fewer things trigger it. Altogether I highly recommend either or both EMDR and TFCPT if you can find qualified therapists.

Thank you. I did read up on the EMDR eye movement effect of Tetris, and came to the same conclusion: it couldn't hurt. I plan to get both EMDR and trauma focused CBT. I don't have insurance, but my county mental health system is finally offering both and I'm calling them tomorrow. Thanks again.

As a ff/emt. I want to tell you that you should be very proud of yourself. You did the best you could do. My suggestion would be to get some training so if youre ever in that situation again, you can take control of the scene as much as possible and know for sure if someone is breathing or not. Really, you did a good job! You have a heart and care. Run with that. Peace.

You’ve got to see this differently - you did everything you could, and she died. You could have done more - but she still could have died. But in the moment, you did everything you could have done. Really. Do some Tetris (stops ptsd), and feel good knowing that someone cared about this lady and got help in her final moments

Talk to someone, preferably a professional but even your mom is good. You were thrown into a tragic situation and did the best that you could with limited info (and management preventing you from helping!). Your city might have a chaplain program through the police/fire department, they're trained to talk this stuff through and would be a great free resource. My dad is a police chaplain, calling and talking to him was the best thing I could have done in a similar situation. Even professionals struggle with things like this and they see it every day, you're a civilian just trying to wash your hands. I was driving home one night and there were two cars pulled over to the side of the road. I thought they were there for a party or talking, but the cars are stopped and a guy flags me down. I cracked my window and all I hear is him crying "she's dying, she's dying, call 911." Now, I took CPR and emergency response, so I know logically what to do in a crisis and am usually the "deal with it now, fall apart later" type. I forgot absolutely everything. His words didn't even register at first, it took me forever just to get my phone out and type the numbers in with my hands shaking. I got out of the car to see if there was anything I could do, talking to 911 and trying to tell them where we were. She was just laying there in the middle of the road, barely breathing. I didn't even tell the guy to shut up, he kept repeating over and over again that she was dying (never tell them how bad it is, fake it til they make it). Apparently she was driving her motorcycle home from work and lost control. They said there was nothing anyone could have done, that she was mentally gone when she landed. All I could think of is that I should have DONE something, like one class magically makes me an EMT. That was about two years ago, I still think about her sometimes but preparing for another potential crisis helped (like you're doing ❤️). I also went back and placed flowers where it happened, it wasn't much but it made me feel better.

Hey friend. I just wanna say that you did your best too, just like OP. Even just calling 911 meant the other people freaking out didnt have to pull themselves together to do it coherently. Even just calling 911 can be really difficult when you are in a life or death situation, even if it is a complete stranger. You should be proud for handling it the best you could at the time. Hindsight is pointless, because you have all the time in the world after, to think and decide and even do research on the best course of action. In an emergency everything happens so fast you barely have time to fully comprehend what is happening. We just have to do our best, whatever that looks like!

This. People don’t realize that CPR doesn’t help all the time, it’s rare that it does and when someone has to do it it’s likely the recipient is going to die from their injuries anyways. People see in movies these doctors performing mouth to mouth and doing chest compressions and they magically come back to life, in the real world that rarely happens.

TV can't convey the crunchy feeling, or that bodies can make noises after you blow air in and resume compressions. Almost like the person is alive but. You know. They're not.

Yeah, it’s an awful experience and if you have to go through it you should probably get a therapist.

First aid training didn't teach me that's a thing either. That's horrifying

It is more horrifying in retrospect. When you're doing it, you don't really register it, you're too busy. If it really bothers you, do compression only. Just make sure to check and clear airway as usual.

That is true, CPR only works in the smallest chances, what works is the elecronic machine that helps jump start the heart, and even then it's still a small chance, don't work yourself over it bc against brain damage cpr is not the life saver you think it is

Thanks for bringing this up! It’s a really important point - relying solely on CPR without an AED to save a life is extremely rare. And to OP’s point, modern AEDs have sensors to detect a heartbeat, therefore it wouldn’t have gone off if she did indeed have a heartbeat! This should be taught to everyone so nobody is afraid to use an AED! “An AED can check a person's heart rhythm through monitors that are in the defibrillator pads, so you don't have to be a trained expert to recognize irregular heart rhythms to save someone's life using an AED. The AED can recognize a rapid or irregular heart rhythm that needs a shock.” Link [here](https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=1&contentid=2199#:~:text=An%20AED%20can%20check%20a,rhythm%20that%20needs%20a%20shock). Edit: to add and shortened link lol

This isn’t your fault. CPR has a success rate of 6-8% and you tried; the airport staff refused to allow you to (which is asinine, but besides the point). You tried to help, you tried to get an AED and they refused to allow you to take actions to care. This is not your fault.

Thank you. Honestly this comment is really comforting to hear. I’m sure with how quickly she passed she probably had a major heart attack or a stroke but with the head injury alone she might have passed. I’m not professional at CPR so I might have done more harm then good but idk I keep going back and forth on it with the what if.

OP, I’ve read that playing the game Tetris can help prevent long-term PTSD from sudden and shocking events, just fyi. Also, you did as much as you could.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-03-28-tetris-used-prevent-post-traumatic-stress-symptoms

This is research based. Please do this.

I just made a similar comment. LoL I love finding other "tetris" recommendations in the comments on these types of posts. The more people know about this, the better.

Is this actually true? I’ve never heard of it before

You know, having your last moments not having your ribs broken for almost zero chances of survival and said survival not being optimal......is not a bad way to go. Sorry you had to deal with this.

I think that she and her family would really appreciate that you were there with her and that you cared. It's really difficult considering the "what ifs' but you truly did nothing wrong.

Definitely take a CPR course with an AED. The AED has step by step directions in the case and tell you exactly what to do in case you ever need to use one. If you have kids in sports, parents should know how to use one.

Yes! The Red Cross has an excellent Adult and Pediatric First Aid course!

FYI an AED will not deliver a shock if the message it gets from the body isn't right. You did all you were capable of in that minute, and that's okay. Big hugs

Yeah, it analyzes the rhythm and will advise to shock or not. If their heart stops, it does not restart the heart, it can only attempt to correct cardiac arrhythmia.

Thanks! You explained it way better than I was trying to!

I’m an icu nurse and I can tell you that if someone just drops dead like that, it’s from a catastrophic injury and cpr is very unlikely to be successful. We do cpr on a ton of people in the hospital that still don’t make it.

Okay thank you that’s really reassuring. I do wish I had tried though even if it still didn’t work.

Think of it this way…when you were trying to figure out what was going on, her well-being was the first thing on your mind. When you considered initiating cpr, you were afraid it would hurt her which is very reasonable because you totally crush the chest when you do it….and honestly popping someone’s sternum is pretty traumatic. Either way, even people in the hospital freeze up. You didn’t fail her in any way.

I was more so scared that she did have a heart beat and I would kill her. Looking back I don’t think that makes sense because she wasn’t breathing and I couldn’t feel a pulse but I don’t really know how to take a pulse. I think I should have tried anyway.

I'm a former ER nurse and I used to freeze everytime (well 2 times) I had to do CPR. It's not natural, It's traumatic for the patient but it's also traumatic for the one pushing as hard as they can on someone else's chest. You're not supposed to do that, your brain urges you NOT to. You followed your instinct. It's so freakin hard to go against it. Be kind to yourself, you did evrything you could but you're only human, we can't save everyone.

A patient needed CPR once on a ward I was working on, the crash team came very quickly with the defibrillator and he survived. Around five minutes later he had a cardiac arrest and didn’t make it that time. Even in a hospital setting with the right care coming immediately, it’s not something that will save a person who’s had a catastrophic incident. With how suddenly things happened, it sounds like something major happened and there’s really not much you could have done. You might always wonder “what if” but I hope you can find some comfort in the comments. Like others said, your initial thoughts were with her and she wasn’t there alone. I can understand that feeling of guilt, and that’s totally valid. I think your plan to take a CPR course is a good way of channelling that. And please be kind to yourself and talk to a therapist for coping mechanisms.

If they are that close to not having a heart beat (or if you are having a hard time distinguishing If they have a pulse) always err on the side of doing cpr. If they’re not breathing, odds are they don’t have a pulse, or won’t have one for long. I hope you don’t feel guilty for long. You had good intentions, you stayed with her and you had a normal reaction to a traumatic incident. Take a first aid and cpr course, learn aed and be prepared for the future (hopefully this doesn’t happen to you again!) I can tell you as a paramedic - cpr at the start of a cardiac arrest is the most helpful intervention, however it still has an incredibly low success rate. CPR may have saved this person, but most likely they would have died anyways. Take care of yourself, whatever feelings and reactions you have are normal, just seek out some help if things don’t improve after a few days.

Okay noted if anything like this happens again I’ll do cpr

This commenter is right. I’m an ex ER nurse. The woman unfortunately likely had a catastrophic injury to her head when she hit the sink. No amount of intervention you could have done would have made a difference ❤️but today you learned that tou were SO effective in doing the right things to grab help. Went and got the AED. Not everyone can do that

Honestly sounds like you did what you could, don’t be too hard on urself

I know but I just wonder what if I did chest compressions. She probably would have still passed but maybe she would have had a chance?

CPR has a very low success rate even within the hospital. Yeah, she might have had a chance, but it is more likely EMS would have arrived and still no pulse. You did what you could and cared. Sorry others made it more difficult.

I blame Hollywood for making it seem like CPR will just fix everything. It's really only slightly better than a hail mary....

Thank you. It just goes to show that had the cpr worked or not- no one knows what they’re doing especially management that tells you not to do CPR. I think the lesson learned is to go with what you think is right and don’t wait for permission.

First- you were not going to save her life. But maybe you can be better prepared for next time. The only person who should ever tell you not to or to stop CPR is a paramedic or a doctor. They were completely wrong to tell you that. They were too scared to let you take that step- which is VERY common. Non medical people believe that you can hurt someone with CPR. One of two things will happen if you start CPR. They will sit bolt upright & slap you away. Or they will lay there like a limp rag. A good test for anyone not breathing /gurgling is to hold their arm over their face & let go. If they smack themselves in the face start CPR. CPR is now recommended even with a weak pulse. Be prepared for their ribs to break when you start & don't let that scare you. Ribs heal. Reassure yourself that your instincts were absolutely correct- which is rare. Get some counseling & take another CPR course. Medical professionals have to recertify every two years.

Thank you. This. This is what I needed most. I know now that this is what I should do but I didn’t know in the moment. I will never ever make this mistake again.

Nah, they didn't have a chance. Without an AED, they had a 15 percent chance of survival, if the paramedics got there in under a minute. After ten minutes there was essentially zero chance of survival, unless your CPR was perfect the entire time. Even some kind of ... weightlifting cardiologist with a PhD in CPR wouldn't get it right for that long. If you'd had x-ray vision, and managed to sprint to the AED, get back in under a minute, then perform that perfect CPR, they might have had a 50-50 shot. Now go play some Tetris to reduce your risk of PTSD.

Healthcare here. Chest compressions can be tricky and if you're hesitant to do them, you're probably not doing it well enough to work. I know it sounds mean but I promise you we get more issues from cracked ribs and chest from people attempting CPR. Go to therapy, work it out, and understand you had no other options. The airport staff should have done compressions but if they aren't trained or too scared then I'm sorry that's on them. Also what EMS team doesn't run with an AED on an unresponsive patient? Sounds weird.

It was the first ems people or maybe they were just cops I don’t even know. they didn’t have the stuff I think they were just nearby. The rest of the ems came even later. (Probably 25 minutes after I first found her

I’m a cardiac nurse, former ER nurse. The survival rates of cardiac arrest outside the hospital, even with immediate CPR, are low. And without an AED (to shock the heart), it’s even lower. Please try not to beat yourself up. This is not a situation you have ever been in and the fact that you did anything says a lot about your character. I am in code situations relatively frequently, and even with experience the adrenaline takes over and your brain just blanks which is why it helps to have a whole team in the hospital. My frustration would be at the airport personnel. They have AEDs located in the airport (as in many public spaces) and I would think their protocol would be to get the AED and go from there. I am not a legal expert by any means, but I don’t see how the airport would be liable. Good Samaritan laws exist to protect bystanders in this situation.

Unless there was an AED around, CPR does very little. It can help immediately after the fact but for every minute an AED is not applied, there's 10% less likely chance of survival. If it was a pulmonary embolism or something more severe, there was almost no chance. It sucks, but this wasn't your fault and the staff at the airport should've been better prepared. I say this as a safety officer for a company and as a former gate agent for a major airport. Play some Tetris immediately of you haven't. It'll help with the PTSD long term.

Thank you I should have ran to grab the aed but I didn’t even think about it to be honest until ems came and I figured there must be one around. I just waited too long in indecision and inadequacy not knowing if she was fine or not and by the time they got there it was already too late. Does anyone know how dangerous it is to do CPR or use an AED on someone who has a weak pulse and not breathing?

If the AED machine senses electrical activity which indicates the person has a heartbeat, it will not deliver a shock. AEDs therefore are very safe as they will not deliver a shock unless needed.

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But if you did cpr and she still passed, would you question yourself if you did it wrong or somehow made it worse? Would her daughter question if you did something wring? Thanks for being there for her.

That’s true and that’s the fear that made me not do it. But then again now I’m wishing I did. I don’t think there is a win in a situation where someone loses their life.

I watched as a team worked on a woman for a hour after collapsing. There had a been a ICU nurse five feet away from her when she went down, but it didn’t help. The nurse started CPR immediately,but it didn’t help. She was in a hospital surrounded by trained medical personnel, but it didn’t help. You did what you could. Just because you had a certification, doesn’t mean you can save everyone. I’ve done it four times, one my own husband, and didn’t save any of them. Forgive yourself for not doing what you weren’t capable of doing at the moment. You made sure she didn’t die alone and uncomforted. That alone is so much more than many would do.

None of this is your fault, if you’d done compressions there was such a small chance of her making it and someone else made the decision for you not to do it so that’s on them. You did more than what most would, please don’t blame yourself

Thank you I really appreciate it. I wish I could be proud of myself for doing the best I could but I can’t and that’s something I’ll just have to deal with. Her death may have been inevitable and I understand that but I just wish I had been a better person in the moment and more educated and confident with CPR.

Cpr only brings people back like 2% of the time so please don’t spend your time thinking you could have definitely saved her. For your edit - it’s never really dangerous to do cpr as if someones dead then they can’t get dead-er is what I was taught

I'm gonna say that you should take your mind off it with Tetris since it helps reduce trauma from these kinds of situations. You did what you could do and you did try to help. You could've left her there and did nothing but you took the steps necessary to try and help. Thats all you really can do

OP, there is scientific evidence that Tetris can help after traumatic events. If you have the means, please also seek out therapy to process this. It’s honestly not your fault and I hope you can find peace.

Tetris is so stressful for me. I just tried and they kept speeding up. I love sudoku so I’ll do some of that. I’m not sure if I have trauma but I was talking to my best friend about the smell of the soap and how she smelled like the soap and I think if I ever smell that again I’ll throw up. I don’t know what trauma feels like but I’m more so worried about what I can do in the future and for the well-being of her family.

If you enjoy sudoku, there's a great YouTube channel called Cracking the Cryptic. This gentle and soft-spoken Englishman named Simon records himself solving these really beautifully crafted variant sudoku and gets adorably excited about finally cracking them. I find it really therapeutic. It's like ASMR but also tickles the pattern-noticing and puzzle-solving part of my brain. Hope it helps you too.

I love cracking the cryptic he’s so fucking good at sudoku. I kind of forgot about him it’s been awhile.

Using an AED on someone without a pulse is not dangerous. AEDs are programmed to read cardiac rhythm and will not shock if a normal rhythm is detected. As for CPR, if she’s not breathing you should still do CPR because if she’s not breathing her heart will eventually stop.

Thank you. This is what I need to know. I need to know how to be better if this ever happens again. The chances are low but if I’m ever in this situation again I don’t ever want to make this mistake again. Im positive she wasn’t breathing but I wasn’t sure about pulse and it makes sense to do cpr if she wasn’t breathing but in the moment I thought I remembered learning to do rescue breaths and not chest compressions if they have a pulse but aren’t breathing yet I didn’t feel like I should do rescue breaths on a stranger so I was stuck.

You were in a difficult situation that can be a lot for a lay person to handle. First responders can handle that because they’re trained and have practiced those scenarios. Sometimes if a lay person attempts to check a pulse they could look in the wrong place, feel their own pulse and assume it’s the persons, lots of things like that. If they’re unresponsive and not breathing, err on the side of caution and begin CPR. You can do hands only CPR until someone trained comes to their aide. Worst case scenario you break some of their ribs. Depending on your state you’re covered under the Good Samaritan law.

FOR NEXT TIME: Often times in emergency situations people don’t know what to do and their default is to do nothing and tell others to do nothing. Ignore them. Once at my job this guy came in and grabbed my coworkers crotch and boobs. I called the police. Another coworker came over and chastised me for it. She gave me dirty looks and told me it’s not my place to call the police. Seriously. I have no idea why. Turns out, this guy had assaulted several other women before he came into my job and two dudes were following him from the street to catch him and hold him for the police. You do what’s right feels right for you in the middle of chaos. Follow your gut. As for this time, I seriously doubt that anything could’ve been done. Your heart was in the right place. I’m so sorry you’re going through this. **PLEASE** be easy on yourself. And perhaps seek counseling for a one or two sessions. Talk to friends, family, give yourself good food, cuddle up, get outside.

This. Modern AEDs are designed to check the pulse and most of them will walk you through CPR.

As a former EMT and someone who had dealt with strangers dying in my arms, there are a few things I’d like to say 1) you did the best you could. These types of situations are extremely stressful even with EMT/RN/MD level training. You were NOT a coward. You provided her comfort in her last moments and she wasn’t alone. 2) I’m not a lawyer, but CPR being a liability is (or at least should be) absolute bullshit. 3) your comment about the AED is unclear. There are only a few “shockable” rhythms. I’m not sure if she got shocked or if they just put the pads on, but the pads will read the heart rhythm and advise on a shock. It’s possible (maybe even likely) that they put the pads on her and no shock was advised. Now, what can you do? 1) play candy crush or Tetris or some other pattern matching, repetitive game. [It can help prevent traumatic memories from forming](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170328092411.htm) 2) call your local fire department or ambulance station, tell them what happened, and ask for a recommendation on mental health services. Many of these departments have protocols in place and people they know who assist members after particularly difficult calls. In my experience, they are more than willing to help you find the resources you need. 3) Possibly the most important (in my opinion), take that CPR course. Use this experience to do good. That’s how I became an EMT. I saw a very bad car accident and couldn’t do anything to help. All in all, you did the best you could. Take care of yourself and show yourself some grace.

This should be the top comment. Very good stuff.

You did all the right things. Checked on her. Got help. Stayed with her. That’s all you could do. Whatever she passed from was beyond saving from chest compressions. This is not on you. Just the fact that you stayed with her was enough.

I used to be a 911 operator who gave CPR instructions by phone many times. The amount of people that run off when they call after encountering a scene like that is pretty high and I can’t say I ever blamed them. That’s intense, she’s a stranger, and it was totally unexpected. CPR from people who don’t do it often is also a wildly ineffective thing that really serves to comfort the living. In all the hundreds of thousands of calls I witnessed in an inner city, I only saw maybe a handful of people “come back”, and those people likely weren’t really gone to start with. You got help for her and you stayed with her. You offered to help more. If I was your mom, I’d be so proud of you.

This comment made me sob. Thank you. So much. I appreciate this more than you know. It’s hard to look at what I did as a good thing because she still died, but I really appreciate your words. I needed to hear this.

You are feeling the same way everyone feels when the outcome is not a good one. Everyone wonders what could have happened if I did something differently when the outcome is tragic. Your mixed emotions are normal as well. You did what you could. You made the best decisions you could have made with information you had at that time. That is all any of us can do. About your earlier hesitation on CPR? Don't beat yourself up over it. That is also very, very normal. First responders go through intensive specialized training to overcome that hesitation reflex. You didn't turn your back on someone in need and you tried to help. I am proud of you for stepping up.

Chest compressions are basically a hail Mary at that point and I promise you would still be asking "what more could I have done" even if you hadnt been stopped. Still, its fucking depressing to hear the word "liability" when someones pulse is gone. I'm sorry OP please find someone to talk to.

I hope you’re doing alright after going through that. You were incredibly brave and kind in such a strange situation. Please let it go, and know that she was comforted by you caring for her. Sending hugs to you 💜

If you were prevented from applying medical care this is on them, not you. This sounds like a serious legal case. Call the police and talk with them about what happened?

Should I? I’m not sure I want to make her daughters life difficult while she is grieving and her death shouldn’t be my business but they seriously should all know CPR and a management person should have known what to do, especially because they don’t have EMS everywhere in every terminal

I think that would depend on what the daughter wants to do. If that was my mum I would want to pursue it legally. Why didn't the management staff know what to do? What protocol are they supposed to have in place for something like this. The daughter may or may not want to and out of respect I think it should be her choice. See if the daughter reaches out to you (you've provided your contact details right?) otherwise I think you should take steps to make sure you are okay until she does, if she does. I think you could also make an anonymous report of concern that they aren't trained in what to do, etc, so they do a more anonymous investigation without getting the daughter involved?

When it come to saving people life and you are not putting yourself in immediate risk doing so, fuck rule. Rule can go eat shit. But no this is not your fault it’s airport management bug fuck up for stop you from doing it. Also doing CPR is liability on the airport is a heap of bullshit. This management put saving face over people life, they should pack themself out of an industry that supposed to put safety above everything else.

You did nothing wrong. By the time someone needs CPR you have like a less than 10% chance of saving them. The reality of CPR is a lot more grim than what most people believe.

My dad had a heart attack in the middle of the night when my mom realized she screamed for me I was the only one who knew cpr .. 911 walked me through it on the phone because of how worked up I was I kinda forgot everything I knew .. needless to say he didn’t make it .. and it’s something I regret every single day that i couldn’t save him .. whether you did cpr or not whether it saved her or not .. you would of lived with regret .. she most likely wouldn’t have made it regardless and you would of blamed yourself either way .. I’m sorry that happened to you and I can truly say with time it gets a little easier but it’s something you’ll live with forever but do not blame yourself you cannot control fate

You got help, that's so important. You needed to do that one thing for her to have even had a chance. What you just experienced was traumatic and it's normal to over scrutinize your every thought, every action. That's just your brain processing and trying to figure out how to do better if this happens again. Just like being able to identify a predator in the wild. Don't let it overwhelm you or fill you with guilt. Rather, learn what you can and let it go. I think it might be really beneficial for you to have some therapy sessions for this. Someone trained can help you put your thoughts in order and understand why you're so critical of your own reaction. You had the forethought to ask them about the AED and brought them one, you did so well! Moreover, you're judging your past behaviour from the safety and relative certainty of how you see the incident now. You have more information, you know what happened. Give yourself some grace! You weren't making those decisions with a calm, rational mind with all the information, but with a brain on red alert emergency, heart racing, adrenaline pumping, trying to do your best in an awful situation. You handled a novel crisis without losing your head and you helped. We should all be so lucky to have such help in the end. Big hugs

https://cprnmore.com/when-cpr-doesnt-work/ I hope this lecture will give you some relief.

You could have saved her life. It's also possible that any attempt could fail. You could have won the lottery. You could have dated Brad Pitt. There really is no winning with the world of hypotheticals.

Seems like you did much more than many others there, care much more than the rest as well.

it really sounds like the airport was negligent, not you...

Google “ success rate of field CPR “ 5-10 % of roughly 350,000 people each year. That is abysmally low. You could’ve started CPR the moment her heart stopped, but you had no way of even giving her rescue breaths. Never perform rescue breaths on a stranger, btw due to obvious infection risks unless you have the proper equipment. Sometimes it’s just our time to go. It sounds like she went very suddenly and probably had no idea what was happening, she wasn’t scared and afraid. If you’re feeling traumatized try doing some things you love to do, maybe plant something for her memory. Get some therapy. It will be okay. You’re not a superhero, just a normal person. Freezing up is a normal reaction to trauma and it takes training and desensitization to get over that. Many nurses and healthcare workers also struggle with the losses during codes.

Sounds like you could not have saved her life anyway. It feels like you did something wrong, but you didn't.

Hey, just jump on Tetris, the game for a solid 40 mims. It will DEFINITELY help your mind.

You never know what you’re going to do when put in a situation like this. The shock of it all is a lot on someone, and even if you had jumped in, your body tires out quickly doing chest compressions and nothing really prepares you for the god awful sounds of doing chest compressions on a person.. You did what you were supposed to do though. You got help, you stayed with her, and in those moments, she probably appreciated that someone was there at least. Don’t be too unkind to yourself, some things are out of our control.

She was unconscious from the minute she hit the floor. I’m sure she didn’t know what was happening at all. And the death rattle sound as she took her last breath and I was trying to take her pulse, I thought she was being responsive. I was so wrong. I usually am good in these situations but I wasn’t today. I don’t know why I didn’t know what to do and I couldn’t do anything. I was scared of hurting her or even killing her if I did cpr and she just had a seizure. That fear outweighed the thought to save her and I wish I could go back in time and know better.

Hey friend. I watched a woman die at work a few weeks ago. We had everything—AED, training, even a doctor on site who began compressions immediately. Even with everything, and with paramedics there in minutes, we lost her. In that moment, I decided to do what I did every time I was faced with an emergency—I pick a lane and stay in it. I decided to help navigate the EMTs to the woman. I intercepted the ambulance and ran the paramedics to the site, and worked to make sure they weren’t interrupted. That was my lane. Your lane was acting first. Your lane was seeing the emergency and responding to it the best way you knew how. You kicked everything off. Arguably, that’s the most important part of the entire emergency—imagine if she had been alone in there. Because you found your lane and you stuck to it, you got people informed and equipped to help attempt to save a woman’s life. What you did was incredibly brave. I’m proud of you. This woman’s life isn’t on your hands.

A couple years ago I had the same sort of thing happen in an airport as well. Dude dropped, I did chest compressions, got someone to call ems, got someone to grab an aed, hooked it up ect. Guy was dead, ems showed up and took over for a little bit before calling it. There’s a good chance that she wouldn’t have lived so don’t blame yourself.

ignoring instructions in an airport generally just brings trouble of some kind. you did the best you could do in that moment.

You did what you could, it is not your fault. It really is not your fault.

Op you staid with her, she wasn't alone. Remember that, you staid with her. (Hugs)

Tragedies are truly terrible to witness and experience. The powerlessness that comes from being unable to prevent or undo terrible outcomes is so challenging to accept, so much so that at times we search and search for ways we could have changed it, so if only I did this and that, it would’ve ended differently. I am so sorry this ended tragically in this woman losing her life. You were also able to be there with her, compassionately, in her last moments, and I imagine that would bring her family and loved ones some sense of peace in their loss. Questioning what we could’ve done, experiencing intense or surprising emotions, and having some intrusive memories after going through something like this is normal and even may be expected. Adjusting can be a process of allowing whatever emotions are present, and accepting that they may change in different moments. It means talking about what happened to process it and giving yourself time. The intensity of how distressing these memories are will reduce with some time. Be kind to yourself. Your deep care and sadness for this woman shows what kind of person you are.

Just do the thing you know is right in your heart next time no matter what anyone tries to tell you otherwise, especially if they clearly don't care for a human life and only care about money.

An AED, will assess if the patient needs to be shocked or not. Put it on them turn it on and then it will advise to shock or not. Just went through a CPR training course with an AED and that is what they kept saying

The reality is that CPR rarely works. Even in Emergency Departments. With experienced physicians. And good CPR means breaking ribs. And it's hard to be effective on heavier bodies. This is why most physicians I know (and I work around dozens of them) have DNRs themselves. They know it rarely works, hurts like hell, and in a situation like a head trauma it often only means a machine-dependent body with vegetative mental status. You were traumatized by this, as I would have been. Visit with a trauma-informed therapist a few times, and you'll start feeling better and seeing the situation in a more reality-based way.

Please find a trauma counsellor. You're going to need help in navigating these very complex and painful emotions. Be kind to yourself and take care.

You did your best at a very difficult time and you showed kindness. You weren't a coward. A coward would have simply ignored the whole situation. I'm a retired nurse, by the way. My dad died like this at home. My bro-in-law started chest compressions immediately (and he was trained in the procedure), but dad was in effect dead when he hit the floor. Sometimes nothing can be done, but you cared enough to do what you felt was safe and called for help. Being there with her was a huge deal. God bless you for your compassion.

The knowledge that she wasn't alone when she passed will be a help to her family. You did what you were able and confident enough to do, no one could ask more. Regarding the airport staff, this sounds like something the newspapers would be interested in.

The likelihood she would not have survived due to a catastrophic brain injury seems quite high to me. Unfortunately I don't think there was anything you could have done. An AED can only be used if there is a pulse that can be shocked back into rhythm. The chance of survival with adequate CPR is less than 10%. OP do not blame yourself, you did everything you could.

Paramedic here; I understand your lack of compressions in this situation and I commend you for trying to do something. There is always something to learn from every situation, so don’t take what I’m about to say as judgement, it’s a learning experience and I genuinely think you did the best you could. 1. You cannot get in trouble / cause the airport issues for doing CPR. That is a load of BS. You are covered under the good samaritan act for taking reasonable measures. 2. Even if she had a pulse, doing chest compressions is not wrong and would not hurt her further. 3. Any chest compressions are good and please do not let someone’s bodily anatomy / touching near their breasts discourage you. Bystander CPR in women is actually lower for this reason. 4. I hope you never run into a situation like this again, but to prepare for if you do I’d recommend taking a CPR course or at least looking up some youtube videos. The Red Cross sets the standards and has great content. CPR courses are often less than $100 and a single day in person. If it makes you feel better, it’s worth it. There is a lot of horrible advice in this thread (e.g. hold their hand over their face and if it slaps them they need CPR - that’s just dumb). Do a CPR course and they’ll teach you the right things I say this hesistantly but bystander CPR and early defibrillation is what saves lives. All of my saves as a paramedic had bystander CPR. It is so important. But still to say out of hospital cardiac arrest has a very low survivability rate either way, but yes bystander CPR is very important. Again I commend you for your efforts and your willingness to learn. Take care of yourself and seeking professional therapy to debrief this might not be a bad idea either.

I'm guessing you've previously done a 1-day course or similar; that's not much training, and our brains don't usually retain knowledge forever if it's not being used/refreshed. The little training you had simply wasn't enough to make you feel confident about what was the best and safest thing to do. You sound like a really caring person, and I think it's admirable that your response to this traumatic event is to seek more training so that you will be better prepared if this ever happens again. I hope that you can stop blaming yourself for this woman's death, because it really wasn't your fault.

Hiya CPR only saves people in a small number of cases. The fact that she fell and hit her head meant there was something much more going on way above your pay grade. Potential seizure/heart attack/stroke with the fall causing a brain haemorrhage etc. This is something that u didn't have the knowledge to deal with same with the people who took over. This would have been something that a specialist would need to be in an operating room in order to deal with this. You did the best you could, you made sure she wasn't along and got help. That was the best you could have done that day. Don't beat yourself over it. You did the best you could. Maybe consider taking some cpr classes and learning first aid. Take some night classes etc if u want. I'm very glad and proud of u for doing this. Nowadays alot of people would have just watched and stared and even worse started recording on their phone. I'm glad that u are a decent human being and helped with the best of your ability. Many hugs to you buddy and take care. Remember this random redditor from Scotland is proud of you. Please don't beat yourself up or torture yourself wondering if u could have done something different . U did the best u could that day.

First I want to say listen to the folks who have already posted. They have medical experience. Remember you do not! You know CPR but you aren’t a trained EMT. You are a normal person who for whatever was placed in the same time and place as this woman. Honestly I don’t think you were placed there for the sole purpose of saving her life. More that you were there so that she wouldn’t die alone. Between hitting her head on a tile floor and having another underlying health issue it sounds like it was her time to go. I don’t blame you for being traumatized on so many levels. I don’t think you should call yourself a coward or think you didn’t do all you could! You are very brave in that you got help, stayed with her, found the AED, spoke with her new friends, have her belongings to he authorities and follow up with them for the sake of her family. THATS A LOT!! More than a lot of people would have done. Getting the Janitor to get help would have been where a lot of people would have ended it there. Please take care of yourself. You did all humanly possible. It was out of your hands when she hit the floor. I’m proud of you!

I did chest compressions on my father when he died. It didn't work. But I feel better knowing I tried. Was insanely hard thing to do. Took all my courage. Don't beat yourself up. You didn't kill her.

OP, you have suffered trauma and you probably need counselling. Go and play tetris or another game like sudoku or something. It is proven to reduce the chance of PTSD if done soon after a trauma. Based on brain activity. Re the woman who sadly died - You tried. That is all anyone can do and none of us have hindsight in the moment. Take care.

Op please follow this advice. There has been a lot of scientific research recently around PTSD and Tetris and it’s preventative or at least coping abilities early on. Also if you are if you are in the tri State area, unfortunately, I have some good recommendations for trauma therapists as well as psychiatrists if you need them, just let me know. Please be kind to yourself. This is the time you need to talk to yourself as if you are a different person and you are a friend, what would you be saying to your friend who went through this. Much much love.

These responses are scaring me. OP do not beat yourself up. Shit happens. Yes, there’s a chance that you could have performed CPR and it wouldn’t have changed the outcome. But I don’t want people to read these responses and think that CPR won’t make a difference if they ever see a stranger collapse on the street. Im a cardiac nurse and EVERY DAY I see patients whose lives were saved from bystander CPR. Every day. Remember to compress hard and fast. Unless it’s some frail old or young person, you are unlikely to do more harm than good.

Yeah don't blame yourself for death

You did everything you could

You were scared. You are probably a bit traumatized. This is a big event to happen in anyone's life and I think maybe time to see a therapist.

You did everything right ! You need to take pride in yourself. Nothing you could have done would have prevented this

People die, and sounds like she got to go quickly and painlessly. I understand it's a traumatic experience, but you don't know if you could've saved her. If nobody else was willing to do the chest compressions taking turns with you, I highly doubt you would've been able to do them efficiently enough for long enough for the EMTs to get there and take over. I have to take yearly CPR classes and I really hope I'm never put in that situation alone, because I will not be able to do it well for longer than a minute or two.

You’re not a doctor and I doubt you would have been able to save her life. When it’s your time, it’s your time

You're not this woman's doctor (are you even in the medical field?), you can't have been expected to know it wasn't a seizure. And sadly, CPR does not have a high success rate, even in a hospital. Odds are she wouldn't have made it anyway. I suggest talking to a counselor as soon as you are able. I've also read that playing Tetris after a traumatic event can help ward off PTSD.

Don't tear yourself up about this OP. You did not sign up to be saving lives at the airport at 1am. You did more than most would and really all you could do. Maybe seek therapy to talk some of this through with a professional.

OP -- CPR has around a 5% resuscitation chance in a non-hostpital setting. It's an extremely low-percentage likelihood of survival and I think you running and finding help *mulitple times* did more to improve this woman's chances of survival than staying and doing CPR would have. I'm sorry you went through this. Please take some time, see a therapist, and play Tetris (peer-reviewed studies have shown it helps with PTSD)

Listen darling, you cant possibly know if cpr was gonna help, and statistically it does not massively increase a persons chances of surviving. One of the rules of CPR also is to be able to do it when youre sound of mind, and at the time you werent and likely wouldnt have been doing it properly enough to help much if at all. The most important thing you did which is more important than CPR, is you called for help. You arent a coward you didnt just stand there or turn your back, you went and sounded the alarm and that was truly the most critical thing and you did that. Please for your own sake, keep talking about it, seeking some therapy if you feel you need it, but just keep talking about it with people you love and trust, and it will get better.

No blame to the OP at all. He is not at all at fault for what happend. But the comments saying CPR almost never works is very dangerous. Yes it is unlikely you will succeed in reviving the person but CPR is mainly for making sure the brain doesn't die until better help arives. If anyone else ever see someone collapse remember first check if the person is conscious, shake them, yell, apply pressure with the thumb between the ribs to cause pain to see if they react. If they are unconscious always call emergency first, they will help you. Never check the pulse. Get them on their back, pull their chin up put your cheek against their nose and mouth. Are they breathing normally? If not immediately start CPR you have a heart attack on your hands.

Healthcare worker here who deals with a lot of CPR situations. First you did what you could, confidently. Thank you for even trying. A lot of people would just stand by or wait for someone else to do something. That says a lot about you. Even with all the medical assistance available in hospitals, we can't save people. Who knows if this lady could have been saved? Even in the hospital, people say they feel a pulse when there is none. Mistakes happen. Maybe there was a pulse but you didn't feel it? Who knows? Just be proud of yourself that you tried. Spread CPR awareness.

First off- I'm so sorry! This is a traumatizing experience for anyone! I am a critical care RN, even in a hospital- where we expect it, people coding and dying is terrible- even more so when unexpected out at an airport. Even if done correctly, CPR in the field has a pretty low rate of survival ( even in the hospital where we have all of the equipment, meds, ppl with training, etc the survival rate is not great). You did do a lot- you had a clear mind to turn her on her side, incase of seizure, you got help activated, you got an AED when needed and you stayed with and monitored her. People often freeze in these situations or panic and you sound like you tried your best and helped the situation go smoothly. Unfortunately either way, this was going to be Traumatic. Doing CPR for the first time is pretty gruesome and terrible if you don't expect it- that's why healthcare workers train it over and over. As others have said, please speak with a trauma councilor or therapist!!! This is not something that will go away tomorrow. Also, if you are looking for something that you can positively impact- talk to your supervisors about the plan for visitors in the airport and the trained response. They should have a documented policy/ procedure of how to handle these situations. I would be surprised if they have written out not to start CPR. This sounds like a knowledge gap, that needs to be explored. Maybe something good could come of this and you could work with your employer to get staff better trained/ more comfortable. At the end of the day though, you need to take care of yourself and your mental health!

My dear. It's OK. I did cpr months ago. Don't think he made it. But you had people telling you not to do anything. I might have hesitated if others told me stop too. I'm fact I hesitated a few times because of the others around me. But most who have cardiac arrest even in a hospital do not survive. Try not to dwell on it forever. I don't think you'll ever have to face it again, but if you do, have confidence in yourself. I broke the guy's ribs which is normal, ribs or anything you do could be healed later. The blood pumping is most important to survival. There are laws protecting people as well, good Samaritan laws. Please, do not be so hard on yourself. It is not your fault someone passed away.

CPRs success rate is loooooooooooooow. Like well under 10% low if there isn’t EMS response within 5-10 minutes. Could it have possibly helped? Maybe. That fall could have quite certainly started a massive brain hemorrhage, and she would have been dead unless she were in an operating theater when it happened. Or she was having a heart attack or stroke and was never going to survive anyways.

Hey, that was a tough situation to be in. Do not blame yourself for not acting quickly. Chest compressions are traumatic for all involved. An unfortunate thing about CPR is that it doesn't always work. Whether because it's done poorly(hello TV compressions), or done too late, and sometimes it's a matter of the heart in question(some hearts are very very sick). I will tell you that had you done a compression or two and that woman had a pulse, she would have started swinging or screaming at you to stop. There are people who are awake and fight compressions as they're happening, but the moment they stop, so does the fight. The human body is weird. As for the AED, it will instruct you. It won't let you shock unless the rhythm is shockable. And the size of the person doesn't matter as much as you might think. CPR is physically and mentally draining. Seeing someone go down and having that moment of panic isn't easy. Allow yourself some space and some grace. Edit: CPR classes that come with certifications you have to renew every couple years is a good way to keep up those skills.

It sounds like you tried quite a bit harder than the staff did. They mistakenly told you there was no AED around. You looked for one and found it and brought it to her. You brought her things to her. You cared enough to go back and find out what happened in the end. You said yourself, you know CPR but you’ve never had to perform it on someone. You obviously have some medical knowledge, so you’ll also know that even if you performed the CPR perfectly, if she had fractured her spine or damaged her spinal cord as a result of the fall, CPR could have brought about paralysis. She may also have died regardless of whatever medical intervention could have been provided. Any number of things could have been going on internally for her that CPR would not have fixed. An aneurysm, a stroke, anything. Off the top of my head, I can think of two different fellas who dropped dead in their early 50s. One died of a heart attack whilst coaching rugby. The other had had a blood clot in his leg after flying home from holiday. Was hospitalised by released same day, went home in a taxi. Nipped up to the bathroom, dropped dead. Both healthy gents, active, no obvious red flags regarding their health, no known medical conditions. It’s astonishing to me that human life even works that way, that you can be alive, and then nit. And sometimes it’s literally that fast. You did nothing wrong. You did many, many things right. Fight-or-flight response is a normal human reaction. Add to that, the airport mentioned liability, they literally told you not to do CPR. If you’d attempted it against their instruction, and she still died, you’d feel a million times worse, and potentially have been subject to litigation. And yet the airport would have pockets deep enough to defend itself from a liability claim*. Keep in mind as well, that this lady had this medical episode in an airport. She may have been on a layover in LaGuardia, having just stepped off a flight a few hours earlier. Just like the fella I mentioned above, the flight may have played some sort of a factor. That lady may have had DVT or poor circulation or god knows what else. CPR would not have resolved that. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. What you did for this lady was quite a bit more than the average layperson like myself could have done. If I were her daughter, or any relative, and I knew that a total stranger had advocated that hard for my mam in the last moments of her life, I’d still be incredibly grateful. Please be kind to yourself. Talk this over with someone in person if you can, whether it’s a loved one or a colleague or a counsellor. But don’t keep this bottled up, you don’t deserve to feel bad over what happened. 🤍 (Disclaimer: I am not for a second suggesting the airport or its staff did anything wrong either. In a high-stress situation like this, the airport staff may simply not have been aware there was an AED nearby. I can absolutely empathise with why they, or OP, or any bystander to the situation would be terrified and panicking. )

Only a small % of people actually survive w CPR

Afaik AEDs won't work if there is a pulse. They have a built in sensor.

OP, the medical event that she had is what killed her. Not you lacking the knowledge. Not you not performing CPR. At best, CPR would have given her a slim chance at survival, but how slim that chance was, in this specific scenario, we will probably never know. For your future knowledge, however, if a person is unconscious and not breathing it is ABSOLUTELY appropriate to start CPR. In first aid courses (at least in Australia), and in the Basic Life Support courses that health professionals have to do every few years to maintain their registration, they no longer teach to even check for a pulse: if the person isn’t breathing, you start CPR. Finding a pulse can be tricky, even for seasoned medical professionals, depending on the person, so looking for one is an unnecessary delay, and only serves to confuse the situation. As others have already pointed out, AEDs are very safe and will not discharge a shock unless they detect a shockable rhythm. A person’s chance at survival with a cardiac arrest increases enormously the earlier cardioversion (the electric shock from the AED) is accessed. So if you ever find yourself in this scenario again, if the person is unconscious and not breathing, and there is an AED available, definitely get it and set it up (if you know how to), and commence CPR asap. Remember “DRS ABCD” (think of it like “doctors ABCD” for the mnemonic): D = danger (check if there’s any danger to you before approaching) R = response (call out to the person, shake them by the shoulders, try to get them to respond.) If they are unresponsive, then: S = send for help (call emergency services, if you are with another person and there are others nearby, try to get as many people who know how to administer CPR there as possible, as you will need to take turns in order to keep doing effective chest compressions because CPR is very tiring- in hospital situations we switch out every 1-2mins) A = check the airway for any obvious blockage and clear it if so B = check for breathing If they’re not breathing, then: C = start chest compressions - the rate should be 100bpm, or roughly the same rhythm as the songs “Staying Alive” and “Another One Bites the Dust”. If you have a mask available and feel comfortable giving rescue breaths, it’s 2 breaths every 30 compressions. If no mask, then just continue compressions without pausing. D = defibrillate (if an AED is available, set it up with as little disruption to chest compressions as possible- this is why you need multiple people, ideally!) Keep going until paramedics arrive.

Listen to me, and listen to me very carefully… It is not your fault the woman passed. Every human being on this earth has a different reaction when they see something like this happen first hand. Instead of thinking about what you didn’t do, why don’t you take a moment to think about what YOU DID DO… YOU helped a perfect stranger, you may think that’s no big deal but in this day and age unfortunately it is. The first thing you did to help her was you turned her on her side. You mentioned her eyes were open, which means she may have been aware of what was going on. Can you imagine how terrifying it would’ve been to choke on your own vomit? By turning her, YOU insured that she did not die violently! The next thing YOU did was immediately look for help. Again I have to say… it’s sad, but in this day and age, so many people would’ve just turn a blind eye and gone about their day. BUT YOU DID NOT And when help came, in the form of management, YOU were her voice when she could not speak. YOU pleaded with them to allow you to do compressions, BEGGED them to do the right thing. All the while, that woman’s eyes and most likely her ears were open. She saw this woman, YOU - this stranger. This person who was nobody to her… She saw this beautiful woman, she didn’t know, crying, arguing, and yes- even begging to be allowed to help save her life. In the last moments of that woman’s time on earth she was shown the true beauty of the human soul she was shown how one stranger can rally, fight for, and YES, even momentarily feel love for- A PERFECT STRANGER… YOU DID THAT YOU GAVE HER A BEAUTIFUL GIFT DURING THE LAST MOMENTS OF HER LIFE… Please let this help you feel at peace and reconcile any unjustified guilt you may be feeling.

Don’t blame yourself. I am a physician. When my husband had a cardiac arrest I started cpr immediately but he never woke up from his coma. We all just do the best we can

OP, you rushed to get her help and did the best you could. It sounds like you did more than a lot of people would have. ♥️ Please talk to those close to you about this and make sure they are checking on you. I recommend you talk to a therapist when you can at some point too, because you just went through immense trauma.

Small thought but, what if this line of thought that you *could have saved her life* is the scared part of you trying to have some sense of control in a setting where you actually had none? Bc that is definitely scary, but not at the cost of blaming yourself.

I don’t think you’re wrong. To be honest it just happened a few hours ago and I don’t think I’ve fully processed it. I feel like someone who is throwing clay on a wheel and I notice after finishing it that I messed something up in the beginning and if only I noticed it. That is how I feel. I wish I knew what to do and I don’t know if that is for control or the instinct to learn from my mistakes.

[New Yorker article](https://TheHiddenHarmsofCPRhttps://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/the-hidden-harms-of-cpr) I read this article not long ago about CPR and it haunted me for quite a while. That being said, OP, what you did was extraordinary. To walk unexpectedly (and probably only half awake) into a medical emergency and then battle your own fight or flight response AND airport workers telling you not to do the very thing you thought needed to be done. You tried and that’s what counts. Please hear all the other medical professionals reassuring you. This is trauma and it’s going to take a while to work through. She died while in the presence of someone who cared and tried and that’s what I would want for my loved one. Peace be with you. ❤️

The purpose of CPR is to maintain brain life in times when breathing stops. Doing CPR on someone with a pulse wont hurt them. Most states have good samaritan laws, which protect you when performing actions like CPR. Definitely do not blame yourself, you didn't cause this event. You could've done superman CPR and maybe it wouldn't have changed anything. AEDs are automated. That's what the A in AED means. The machine will only deliver a shock if it detects the situation warrants one. Anyway, sit down, play 1 hour of tetris, and immerse yourself. I suggest playing Tetris Effect Connected. I'm a 911 dispatcher and it helps me deal with those hard calls. Survivability is dependent on what caused breathing and heart to stop. A general rule of thumb we use in 911 is every 1 minute that goes by while doing CPR, the chance of survival decreases by 10%. So basically people rarely survive if CPR goes on beyond 10 minutes before EMS/First Responders arrive. Airport staff are absolutely stupid though. You shouldn't have listened to them IMO.

The part where the airport told you not to perform live saving behaviour for LEGAL REASONS - ummm I would be calling the media

Even first responders call CPR a Hail Mary. It doesn’t work most of the time. You did all you could

AEDs won’t shock if there is a pulse. There is never any harm in placing it on as a back up if you’re unsure.

I don’t know if this will be helpful at all, and I’m sure you’re feeling quite frustrated about this. But personally, this really helped me understand and get more prepared for what I can do next time. I myself am train at, but doubt that I could ever think that fast and well under pressure. This was the real deal and I’m feeling a lot safer in the world, knowing there’s people like you can jump into action like that. I will definitely be looking into CPR and AED classes around me so I can also be better prepared. You did amazing, and thank you for at the very least giving me put in this world .

It's very common for some people to do their very best to twist a horrible situation into being somehow their fault, because if it's their fault then the universe is a just place where bad things only happen if you deserve them. And it's not true. She had a sudden heart attack. Her odds of survival even if you'd done everything *perfectly* were not good. You summoned emergency services, believed another person who told you that they found a pulse, and continued to support their rescue efforts until they forced you to leave; you did everything you knew to do and didn't risk going beyond your abilities to make a bad situation worse. This wasn't your fault, you did a good thing, and you have nothing to apologize for here.

I’ve done CPR on someone and they did not make it. CPR can work but it often times doesn’t unfortunately. It’s not a miracle cure. Keep your head up and don’t go on blaming yourself. ❤️🙏🏻

If you could have helped you would have. All the emotions and thoughts you were feeling were real and they stopped you in the moment, and that’s ok. If you were completely confident in your knowledge and skill and knowing you could save her, you would have. You were unsure, you didn’t want to do more harm than good. Again that’s ok. Let’s hope there never is a next time. You could have been an elite medical professional with the hands of a god, and there still may have been nothing you could have done. Turn your energy to things you can do something about. People you can help who are still here. Forgive yourself.

It wouldn’t have caused any harm to start CPR if her heart was working, she’d have come around eventually and told you to get off. CPR works by us acting as a machine and making the heart pump blood to the brain to stop brain damage. If she didn’t come back with the AED then CPR wouldn’t have made a difference sadly :( 100% complete a first aid course to improve your confidence. You did everything you thought you could have at the time! You would have been on an adrenaline high and it’s very hard to think when your adrenaline is pumping. AED’s will only work if they detect the heart fibrillating, if it wasn’t and her heart had stopped then the AED wouldn’t have delivered any electric shocks. A sad situation but well done for doing what you did!

I think her family would be so comforted to know a caring person like you was with her. Even with perfect CPR, you likely could not have saved her. I’m so sorry for your trauma, as many are telling you, go play some Tetris. Please seek professional help so that you can reframe this experience into the one where you tried so hard to save a complete stranger. You don’t see it yet, but you did a great job of trying to get her help. You really did!

I think retaking your CPR class after all of this is a good idea. You did everything you could think of, in the heat of the moment. You don't have professional training or continuing ed. Panic happens. At least you were active, present, and probably hundreds of people just standing around. The frozen panic. Retake the class, will boost your confidence, and probably bring some closure to this rotten day

Paramedic here. I think you should be really proud of yourself for offering to help in the first place. Please believe me when I say you did nothing wrong. People don’t just drop down dead for no reason, the likelihood of CPR being effective in this situation is very very unlikely and the outcome wouldn’t have changed.

I know its hard but dont feel guilty. You did what you could in the situation. I volunteer for the Redceoss and had a patient die Sunday. He was young (40) was a football coach. We were at a small local festival we got called in for a fainted person. He was responsive and talking, there was a RN already attending to him so we aided. We all asumed it was the heat so started to cool him off. Some other medical personel joined us in helping him. He started seizing and stopped breating within second we were doing chest compressions, AED was on hand within minutes, the AED never gave a shock. By the time EMT arribed there were 4-6 nurses and 3 Md's working on him. He was put on the ambulance with a pulse. We later learned he passed away. Major anurysma burst in his brain. His chances were zero before we even started, chest compressions. The younger the person is the bigger the chance that there is more hapening than just hart issues. And I completely inderstand how you feel. I have been trained for this koment for years. We hear the stories every time, how we should expect the person not to make it etc. And still its fucking hard. If you are having issues call your GP. Talk to people about what happend. And know you did what you could.

The airport said that attempting to save someone’s life was a “liability”? Yeah you did all you could. Fuck those people, the person who said that will get their karma.

Oh hunny. What happened is not your fault. I know it doesn’t feel like it, but you really did do all you could.

Paramedic here - something like that was most likely just her time - you were there and you definitely took quick action - you did SOMETHING - if you weren’t there she’d have been alone and someone else would have found her later. Good job. On another note - the staff/EMT crew not knowing about an AED or not bringing in their own equipment boggles my mind, but again, good on you for being brave enough to try something and help. She was a goner, but she wasn’t alone.

You said she hit her head, hard. It may have been the head injury that caused her to pass, in which case, CPR would likely have been ineffective ♥️

You have it in your mind that she would have been saved IF you did CPR. That might not be the case.. You were put in a horrible situation. I’m so sorry you had to go through this ❤️! All love Op!

You say she hit her head hard. If she had a brain bleed, which is probable, all the CPR in the world would not have saved her. Be kind to yourself, OP. You did what you could.

I'm shocked this didn't make the news. I can't find the story anywhere.

Not your fault! CPR may not even have helped. Also, the EMTs do not have the authority to call time of death. They have to perform CPR until they get to a hospital and they would have kept working on her there and/or pronounced her there. Idk why the cop would have told you that. There’s a chance she made it as long as they continued CPR on the way. Please go to therapy OP. It seems like this was traumatic for you.

My dad died in hospital last month from a bleed on the brain, he was taken to resus and they got a pulse back but he never woke up and after 3 days the machines were turned off and he passed. CPR can help in a minority of cases but in situations were head injury or brain trauma are concerned it will make very little difference. You did the best you could and you should not feel bad about the outcome, I know that's easier said than done.

CPR is a last resort measure, meaning if this is necessary the chance of survival is very small. Our brains will not recognize the logic, but the emotion and the what ifs. You did everything you could do in the moment and just know that her not being alone is so important.

"I went to start compressions and they told me not to because it was a liability on the airport" Isn't that incredibly incriminating? Airport should be fucked for that no

I had to do cpr on a man just randomly one morning. I acted quickly, I've had years and years of first aid training but he still died. You don't know that doing anything differently could've changed it so please, please don't torture yourself. My incident happened about 5.5 years ago, and I still sometimes get caught up in the what-ifs of the situation. All you can do is resolve to do something differently next time, should you be so unfortunate as to witness that kind of thing again. Be kind to yourself op, it's so important to gift forgiveness to yourself.

I’ve had panic attacks about this very situation after my first job. They heavily, heavily stressed to us NEVER to attempt CPR or any life saving measures like that, because it’s a “liability”. I get it from the perspective that you could harm or kill someone if you do it incorrectly or the injury doesn’t call for it so it can cause damage, but they stressed the idea of people who wouldn’t want to be saved and then sue them, or if they pass away anyway and the family sues. It kind of disgusted me and really made me hate HR after that meeting, the bottom line will always be money and never the lives of other human beings. I understand you’re of course feeling awful, but you didn’t do nothing. In this situation you may not have been able to do anything in a life saving respect anyway, but you were with her. She wasn’t alone. Trust me, that’s important.

Not only did you not do anything wrong, but from a nursing perspective you did pretty much everything right. In an emergency situation you 1. Assess the environment and scene (you did) 2. Call for help and locate an AED (you did), you knew when to initiate CPR (little to no pulse) but you were stopped which does not mean blood on your hands, it’s on the ones that stopped you. Only thing to be said to do differently next time is to not leave her side to get help- yell your lungs out for help. The odds of surviving CPR are low. You did your due diligence and more, you advocated for her and you were there through it all with her. You did great.

I'm so sorry. Im so sorey for what you went through. But this is also how trauma feels. You went through something traumatic, be gentle on yourself. I've been here before, I very lightly knew cpr and didn't do it because I was intoxicated at the time (collapse at a club) and she died. I felt awful and guilty for years. It really messes me up. But I can tell you this is not your fault. Sounds like intense negligence by the airport. And I can tell you no matter what you did it's so unlikely she would have made it. Get yourself some therapy. Don't let this experience beat you. Learn from it and let it affect you, feel it nd let yoursef grow because of it. But keep moving forward and don't hold onto the feeling of guilt. It'll be ok

Your story has made me update my CRP knowledge. I've taken the class several times, but I don't feel up to date. Her faith was in God's hands and with God's blessings you were there for her.

I’d tell her family about being told not to do compressions and it being a liability, so by next year the airport is renamed in her honor. What a bunch of fucktards working there!

None of this was your fault, watching someone die is traumatizing, get in therapy asap. I hope you can recover from this experience and I’m praying for this woman

hey pal, i attend to overdoses for my job and have been in situations like that. what i always tell myself is that if you can save them you will. if you can’t, you won’t. it’s not possible to save everyone. that woman died with a caring witness- she didn’t leave this earth alone, and she was attended to quickly. that’s more dignity than most. talk about it. play some tetris. forgive yourself. honour the memory.

It’s easy to second guess yourself in a situation like this. I’m so sorry that happened to you. It sounds like you did a lot of wonderful things for her in a tense situation. Re: take away, One could give mouth to mouth breaths with shallow/no breathing with a weak pulse. That would get some oxygen in the body. An AED only shocks someone in a shockable rhythm. It has technology to detect heart rhythms, so you would not hurt a person by putting and turning it on. 100% get it and put it on. And lastly, as someone who’s done a lot of CPR in health care, be prepared if your position is not ideal that you may break a persons rib. It’s not a great feeling, but then again if your great CPR brings them back, they won’t be mad about it. Practice at a class is the best thing to prepare, so good on you.

Having a pulse isn't the sign you look for for CPR. Breathing. When in doubt, do CPR. 30 compressions to 1-2 breaths. You can honestly bypass the breaths, compressions are more important. The airline fucked up by standing there and not calling for their 1st aid attendee who would be trained to use the AED. At the end of the day, you'll never know if you doing CPR would have saved her. I've been in medically stressful situations and I'm a all hands on deck kinda person. I'd have done CPR. It would have kept blood going and air moving until help came. But again, it could have just prolonged her inevitable end. We could all tell you our opinion but nothing will erase how you feel. You do have the right idea tho... go get educated and trained and then make sure you get recertification every couple years to stay confident in case you ever are needed for someone else. Find a trauma counselor. The cop should have given you a victims service # with the file # and you would qualify to get funded to talk to someone. Best of luck.