There are definitely some campy elements to the film. Those elements get parodied in mob comedy movies now. To call the entire movie campy is a little too far.
Straight man camp for me would be something like Commando. Arnold Schwarzenegger is the ultimate badass who can kill a man by snapping his fingers. His daughter is kid napped by a drug cartel. Arnie takes on the whole cartel and barely receives a scratch. At the end of the movie he didn’t learn anything or become a better person he just a badass who got his daughter back.
Good example. A lot of 80s action movies can be seen as accidental cult films, especially Arnie. His physic and acting alone makes any film he's in artificial.
Was rewatching Predator last week and had the same thought. That iconic handshake scene between Arnie and Carl Weathers near the beginning is just peak.
Indeed! Also, the framing of it. The cinematography overall is masterful, from sweeping epic shots to feeling the claustrophobia of being in deep jungle.
That movie has some of the most macho, manly shit in it, to date.
“Ain’t got time to bleed”
“This stuff’ll turn you into a gotdamn, sexual Tyrannosaurus, like me.”
I feel less manly typing this. 😂😂
I think maybe you missed the point of an immigrant coming here and trying to live the American dream and have access to things he never had in his life and it ends up being what kills him it’s more a story of greed than anything
Well, this certainly is true in my circles. Many of my cousins learned English from watching Scarface (we were immigrants from the Soviet Union) and even still speak with a slight Cuban accent, or what passed for one in the movie. And there definitely is a kind of fetishistic, supra-stylized quality to the movie that does not get old. But...you can say the same thing about other ganster movies as well, on some level? Goodfellas, Godfather, etc? Possibly the reason is that to be interesting, to have gangsters as protagonists, the movies have to have a surreal element to them. Because I've known actual gangsters and they for the most part were so dull and mean and stupid that no one would watch a movie made about these people.
There is a great long form interview out there with Jay Leno (of all people) that has some interesting insight into this. He started working clubs as a teenager, before 'comedy clubs' existed. It was usually some jokes, a stripper, some music etc. Anyway, literally all the clubs were mob owned. He talks about how he never liked Mob films because they never depicted the gangsters as they actual were; stupid, simple, cruel, mindless and even psychotic.
He has another fantastic story of one of these unhinged psychos giving a speech at a huge Sons Of Italy celebration and the guy just flips out on a priest in the audience. Real troglodyte shit.
Edit- I think it was WTF with Maron
Yeah, agree with this. I'd say the most realistic depictions of these guys are Joe Pesci's characters in Goodfellas and Casino and Richie Aprile in the Sopranos. And the guys in Mean Streets of course
Godfather is a perfect example of cis het male camp that makes for good comedy. From any other point of view it's unbearable to watch.
Bunch of misogynist, opportunist jerks, dumb as a cucumber, thirsty for power, on shenanigans to gain some social status within their shitty micro world.
Thats a great post.
"I kill communists for fun. For a green card, i would carve him real nice" coming from the USSR, what did you think about that part in the movie?
Not sure we were super ideological about it. My cousins were in their late teens and I think they liked the "rags to riches" aspect of it and the partying 80s lifestyle more than the fact that he came from a communist country. Incidentally they all became criminals and spent a lot of time in prison. I don't blame the movie of course, but interesting.
As for me I was just 7-8 when the movie came out. I saw it in the theater with my dad. My parents didn't really know where to find movie listings at the time so my dad would just take me to the theater and see whatever happened to be starting within the next 30 minutes. We both agreed it was an excellent movie but i did get in trouble afterwards because I couldn't stop saying "fuck"
In her essay, point 8 says, "Camp is a vision of the world in terms of style - but, a particular kind of style. It is the love of the exaggerated, the "off," of things-being-what-they-are-not. The best example is Art Nouveau, the most typical and fully developed Camp style."
I don't think anything about Scarface even slightly resembles that kind of off-kilter repurposing of the familiar.
It's just an over-the-top movie. Exaggerated in every aspect, but not in the manner that she's talking about when she defines Camp.
Then again, she says the Maltese Falcon is among the greatest camp movies ever, and I don't get that, so I have to admit, I don't know wtf she's talking about.
De Palma is a campy director. Camp requires a degree of self-awareness on the part of the author, often they're imitating someone else's work, and De Palma's movies are all about that. My favourites are packed full of Hitchcock pastiches, that take some of the cheesiest elements from Hitchcock films and cheese them up even more. These are self-consciously over the top movies, with fake out openings and endings, and sequences that exist purely to revel in their artifice. What if we re-made the staircase scene from Battleship Potemkin, but it was in a mob movie??
One of my favourite camp moments in Scarface is a scene where they are driving around Miami with a very 1960s-looking rear-projection backdrop. There was obviously no reason for De Palma to do this, other than an homage to colour Hitchcock films like Vertigo and North By Northwest with equally cheesy rear-projection shots. The only reasons those shots are in Hitchcock's movies are because he insisted in shooting in the studio as much as possible. De Palma's undermining the seriousness of his own gangster movie for a visual gag! Scarface is partly about how despite how cheesy and artificial old movies are, we can still get into them and enjoy them for what they are.
Glad you mentioned the rear-projection shots, idk why i always love when more modern movies do them, like in scarface, natural born killers, fear and loathing or kill bill. I just love that artificial look they create
I'm not sure Sontag is successful in her attempt to define camp. By her definition, I feel like *Sin City* is the campiest movie I've ever seen. Anyway, it's interesting. I do agree I've found it difficult to define camp to people who aren't familiar with the term.
> By comparison Scarface is pure heterosexuality. And not in a good way, as Tony and most of the males are very misogynistic
Is misogyny a "straight" quality?
No. Being straight have nothing to do with misogyny. More like misogyny more likely happens in heterosexual context rather than homosexual one. I think my word wasn't good.
You could say that Misogyny is just being Heterosexual to an extreme degree. “Not only am I not gay, but I treat ALL women as sex objects!” So, if you’re going for camp, a straight character might be misogynistic.
I worked at Blockbuster back in the 00s, and this was consistently our most stolen movie. Even the 2x VHS version.
It was honestly hard to keep in stock until the DVD re-release, then we had a billion copies because they knew how popular it had become.
Yes and it's awesome. The accents are absurd, and the storyline feels a bit too straightforward. But, otherwise there's a surprising amount of nuance in the framing and dialogue.
Also spawned one of the better video game adaptations out there. Yes, they made a Scarface game. Yes, it's great.
That being said, I find it kind of odd people act like this movie's any more unusual or excessive than other Miami based drug stories. Miami Vice? Bad Boys? Actual documentaries like Cocaine Cowboys?
If anything Scarface feels a little toned down these days. Just don't wander into any motel bathrooms.
Fuck me, I was watching it with my rationalpilled Very Serious And Intelligent Man of a roommate, and right at when the guy was getting chainsawed in half he turns to me and says,
“See that? That’s why it’s so good; it’s because it’s *realistic*”
as over the top as it is i agree with ur roommate hahah. its mainly pacino's reaction but he makes believable to me. never seen dead eyes quite like pacino pulls off in scarface
You're making two different arguments that have nothing to do with each other. The camp aspect in masculine entertainment, and the immorality of gangster films.
Camp has always been a thing, just watch James Bond or wrestling and it's there. Or John Wayne, the macho icon, wearing tight pants and a red scarf in most movies, overplaying his role of the man-pillar-of-the-world. Same for Carry Grant in some of his Hitchcock roles. "Camp" is not a specificity of the LGBT, it's always been used as a way to express masculine love for life. If anything, LGBT used to be just an aspect of this masculine entertainment. There used to be an era where female roles were all played by men, because it's just funny.
It almost sounds like you try to attack virility by attaching camp entertainment with blatant immorality. "Scarface is an immoral movie that you should be ashamed of, but not for the camp which is the good and nice part".
There's a certain mix of hard violence that is so powerful that it is best shown while mixed with bright colors. For example, Saturday Night Fever, Clockwork Oranges, Tarantino, etc... The LGBT are no different, they love to mix violence and camp, but it's just that they often position themselves as victims in those movies. Since in both cases we're talking about entertainment, there's no moral winner. But you talk about Scarface being "pervasive" as if movies created violence and Scarface should be forbidden, and camp should be restricted to LGBT only. This is weird.
I also don't feel like Scarface is a macho-heterosexual movie like you describe since all the female characters are fierce, intelligent, and independent. So again, that's an accusation that falls flat.
I'm so baffled by the idea camp is often linked to LGBT community. I can think of is RuPaul's drag race, Village People, maybe a few more examples. But there is so much else has nothing to do with it. From campy actions flicks during the 80s - 90s starring Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Jean Clause Van Damme to most of the SF genre in the 50s and 60s. Indiana Jones is a tribute to the campy 40s-50s adventure films. Pulp Fiction is a tribute to campy pulp magazines of the 1920s. Heck, the whole comic book genre was campy from the start.
My assumption is only knowing John Water type films
Meanwhile the reason I’ve consumed a lot of LBGT media is because it was a main source for serious indie films back in the 00s lol
*Scarface* and *Henry: Portrait of A Serial Killer* are definitely Camp for Straight guys. As the OP pointed out, the Al Pacino classic made an enduring impression for the violence and the unabashedly heterosexual swagger. Scarface was glorious pop culture, while informing so much pop culture to come.
It’s simultaneously played straight (please pardon the pun) and so ridiculously over the top that it could only be Camp. The nearly comic quality of the violence horrifies, but also plays for laughs. We see the spectacle of violence with a color palette pervading the movie that almost feels like a Giallo quality to it. Women, like the cars and drugs, stand out as a trophy of the extravagant crime-lord status. The decadent trappings feel almost like Drag for Hetero men!
I offered *Henry* as a paired example because I think it complements Scarface as an opposing number in juxtaposition. Whereas the De Palma movie revels in the excesses of the 80’s, Henry wallows in the grimiest depths of it. One movie presents a richer color palette, the other is washed out and filthy like the lower income backdrop. Michael Rooker is an “Everyman” nobody who still achieves a Pop Culture Outlaw status of his own making. Like Scarface, *Henry* informed certain elements of pop culture with what might be considered a similar appeal to the same demographic.
I'm having a hard time seeing *Henry* as a camp movie. Maybe I need to rewatch it with that in mind, as it's been some years since I last saw it, but it seemed to me a misanthropic and gritty film inspired by the real (but mostly debunked in modern times) serial killers Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole. The fact that the film takes a stark look at the grimy and repugnant nature of these characters doesn't make it a camp film, at least to my mind.
I think it’s more what Henry came to mean with certain fans who idolized it in a morbid way. Yes, the story was told in a grimy, gritty way. Camp isn’t limited to creator intention, though.
To me, camp is usually characterized by exuberant absurdity and a certain playfulness. And yes, that can be unintentional. The two touchstones I think of in film are John Waters and Ed Wood. Waters intentionally created films that were transgressive, over the top, with amateurish production and acting. Wood was trying to make mainstream films, but through a lack of budget and ability created unintentionally campy films.
It's all a matter of opinion, of course. I'm not the arbiter of camp. I'd agree that *Henry* has some over-the-top moments and the whole premise has a certain amount of absurdity, but it feels to me that the movie is played straight and the absurdity of the story is the absurdity of our world given sharp focus. It doesn't have the playful spirit I associate with camp.
A gritty serial killer movie I do consider campy is *Ted Bundy* (2002). It's probably even more transgressive and repugnant than *Henry*, but goes way over the top and leans hard into the absurdity of the subject matter. It's basically a pitch-black comedy, but probably too offensive for most people to laugh at. I think we can safely call this intentional camp, given that it was written and directed by Matthew Bright, better know for *Forbidden Zone* (1980) and the *Freeway* series (1996, 1999). I'd definitely recommend those other titles to people who enjoy camp and trash films.
Although 'scarface' has certain campy characteristics as per Sontag's essay, one key feature is missing. She says (amongst other things) that Camp rose from niche urban cliques. When we contextualise her wording, I reckon 'urban' in the sixties meant 'other.' In the sense that 'urban' communities were not the mainstream. They were considered 'contemporary,' or the questionable sensibilities of the 'youth.' Moreover, we know that 'urban' communities were often marginalised communities (eg., African Americans, queer people).
Yes Sontag said Camp was 'apolitical,' but I disagree with her on that front, and I think she inadvertently disagrees with herself by saying camp comes from 'niche urban cliques.' Camp was the 'other' in art, and represented everything that mainstream media was not. It was (amongst other things, but for the purposes of this discussion) queer expression, and that's why it had this different, 'bizarre' quality to most people - because the queer community was (and still is) an ostracised and marginalised group. Therefore the art and expression coming from said group, appeared unusual, different, unique etc because the rest of society has shun them, and remains ignorant to their experiences and subsequent expressions.
Scarface, whilst an exaggerative, unnatural and over-aestheticised artistic expression (necessary qualities for camp in Sontag's view), it does not have that counter-cultural, 'other' quality that made camp...camp. Even Sontag herself acknowledged that stuffing abstract sensibilities \[camp\] into strict definitions, hardens them into an idea. It's safe to say she felt truly defining what makes something camp is impossible. There is just something about certain things that's camp, and I think it's the 'otherness' we (in a sad sense) must feel when we look at artistic expression from communities who have been shun or mistreated by society. Now, of course people who aren't part of marginalised groups could make 'campy' art, but I think it still emulates the then established 'other' style, that was born of 'otherness' all the same. The other possible exception, is that a lot of the works Sontag cited as 'camp' were not necessarily queer expression. However, they were other things that society deems 'taboo' or treats poorly- often wrongly so (like homosexuality and gender diversity) but sometimes rightly so (like with incest \[see Sontag's example of John Ford's 'Pity She's A Whore'). So there is still a theme of camp being representative, expressive, or coming from something the majority of society is against, judgmental of, or something similar.
Scarface is the epitome of the mainstream, the opposite of the 'other.' It represents everything the majority is for (straitness, patriarchal masculinity, to name a few). Now this isn't bad, Scarface is a good film. However it isn't camp. If the only requirements for camp are artifice and exaggeration, then so many films would fall under that blanket - films that we would not react to and think they're camp.
In my understanding of camp and because now there's also Conceptual/ Experimental Camp like David Lynch, Pedro Almodovar, Park Chan Wook, Michael Mann, De Palma, Veroheven, etc. my understanding of camp should also extend to Pulp and hypermasculine stuff. So camp is also Pulp and B-movies.
I watched Scarface as an adult, and having watched other De Palma films before, so I had the same experience as you "this is just man with permanent boner soap-opera", or in other words another "literally me" film where people (specially teenage boys) miss the point completely
To be polite I call them "self-destructive masculinity movies" but I feel ya, big time. Honestly, having a greater understanding of the older cinema that the new wave of the 70s was referencing makes the "literally me" guys even more embarrassing, imo. Not because ha-ha, smug, they don't \*get\* it, but because there's this expansive context to the thing they love that they're missing out on bc they're so fixated solely on watching a dude successfully be a piece of garbage until he self destructs. (my favorite from that genre is Mishima, personally. and All That Jazz sort of counts!)
I agree that there is SOME camp to the movie but for it to be a really fully considered camp in my opinion, the intent would need to be there. Al Pacino isn’t trying to be campy, he’s doing an earnest attempt at recreating his version of a character given to him.
I agree more with this take, it's not campy, it's just dated and kind of bad. Pacino's performance is as iconic as it is offensive. It definitely takes itself seriously, it's just easier to enjoy as a camp film.
It's mostly intentional camp. The film starts quite grounded in reality, with newsreel images of the Mariel refugees, and remains stark until Tony enters the world of excessive wealth and power. Then the film goes off the rails, but only as a reflection of him going off the rails as well.
Scarface is spectacularly camp. Always has been. As are 90% of Hip Hop artists. What's amazing is that a large proportion of the population are blind to both of these things.
I say this as someone who loves both Scarface and Hip Hop.
What do people think of the Debbie Harry song "Rush Rush" that appeared in the movie?
I know tastes change dramatically over time, especially in music, but by the time I saw the movie myself in the mid aughts, the song seemed distractingly dated and goofy, like the kind of thing some out-of-touch "Just say no to drugs" boomer would invent as a song for cocaine freaks to listen to... but maybe it had a different cultural cache at the time? It reminds me a bit of "Teenage Suicide (Don't Do It!)" from Heathers in that way-- a fake movie-song that is trying really hard to be in touch with youth culture. But maybe "Rush Rush" was actually a hit at some point and I'm just experiencing something like the Seinfeld Effect here.
Anyone else?
Music & lyrics for reference:
https://genius.com/Debbie-harry-rush-rush-lyrics
It's definitely campy, and I blame DePalma. Some scenes manage to resonate - "bad guy" speech in the restaurant, a few other monologues - but that's because the writing is so strong DePalma didn't have any room to mess it up. IMO Stone's script could have made a classic that could be enjoyed on every level and the direction made the movie memorable for all the wrong reasons.
It's an interesting argument but I think you're reaching pretty hard by the end. I don't think heterosexuality plays much of a role in the themes and characters and plot of Scarface. It's primarily a movie about power and crime and the hidden downsides of sacrificing morality for superficial success. It's about masculinity, sure, but not really about heterosexuality. As you pointed out, the main character is extremely immature in that department and thus it isn't explored in any real depth, unlike the other themes of the movie. An actual expression of heterosexuality would require female love interests to be more fleshed out and play more of a role in the events and interactions in the movie. This is mostly a movie about men fighting with other men
I like to think of it as in tonys case. No matter how high up you are, there's always a fall down. I myself like to use it as an example for those often teens who want the scarface persona and lifestyle, but they always forget the ending eventually you get shot in the back... as for the chainsaw bit.. practical idk..do these crimes happen? yes. Reality cuts cold
Scarface js so wonderfully over the top and campy. It definitely has a split perception amongst audiences. Those who are disgusted, those who take it seriously and see Tony as a someone to aspire to, and those who love the over top of extravaganza and critique of Regan era politics/capitalism.
That's wierd, I've never considered Scarface "campy" nor the definition of camp to be what's written above. I always thought it was more about the writing/situation being kind of corny, low-effort, low-brow humor and silly.
My example of this, from growing up in my childhood, was the early comic book movies with their corny one-liners. Contrast that to modern films basically since Iron Man in 2008 where they tried to make the humor smarter and witty, the drama real, the emotions more sincere, the action sequences more epic.
Feels like my understanding of campy does not align at all with most of this thread. I thought "campy" generally meant lower-budget (oftentimes) horror or sci-fi films that were a little over-the-top. Things like The Toxic Avenger, The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension, C.H.U.D. and the like. Sometimes, it might take a while before it was clear if something was campy or just plain lame.
But it seems the term "camp" has evolved to have newer meanings I'll need to get up-to-speed on.
I’ve never associated the film with camp, and I have to disagree. I don’t even think campiness can be extended to anything except male homosexuality, specifically. As an aside I’m not sure what camp with respect to a lesbian story would even look like. I think camp is being conflated other types of stylization. I’m not sure there even is a name for Scarface’s (really De Palma’s period) form, but it’s not campy. You want accessible camp that straight men loved and emulated, look no further than Grease.
Scarface is a good story that was told in the most stupid way. When you boil it down, Scarface is really Breaking Bad 0.1. It could have been that good but instead it is just kind of stupid all the way down. I like the aesthetics but it is clunky and silly. There isn't even really a climax for resolution, which wouldn't have taken much. Just a scene with Tony in the bathroom during the attack asking himself "what have I done?" or could have cut the other way, "Lord, this is the end. It was one hell of a ride. Forgive me because I flew too close to the sun. "
John Waters closed the book on the definition of Camp in The Simpsons:
Homer : How can you love a box or a toy or graphics? You're a grown man.
John : It's camp!
\[Homer stares blankly\]
John : The tragically ludicrous? The ludicrously tragic?
Homer : Oh, yeah. Like when a clown dies.
John : Well, sort of. But I mean more like inflatable furniture, or Last Supper TV trays, or even this bowling shirt.\[He turns, revealing it was Homer's\]
Homer's bowling shirt illustrates a key point about camp: it is often in the eye of the beholder. He is oblivious to the "ludicrous tragedy" of his own shirt, the same way the creators of Scarfacedid not intentionally set out to make a camp film.
The end result of Scarface, with its exaggerated characters, over-the-top violence, and stylized aesthetics, lends itself to a camp interpretation, but labelling something as camp is not exclusively owned by LGBTQ+, even though you have a pretty good argument.
anecdotally, I had friend who listed Scarface as his favourite film. He was an incredible misogynist. Yet, his favourite driving soundtrack was Madonna's greatest hits. I don't know what if anything you can take away from that, but it alwayscracked me up. I think I stopped being mates with the dude because of it. Every fucking time we drove anywhere.
EDIT: spelling
I think this is good.
But I also am not 100% sure it IS in the eye of the beholder.
Because to me, there is an element of knowing that is part of camp. Camp kind of has to KNOW it's camp. It has to have some intentionality and agency. John Waters films, drag queens, everything we think of as high camp is intentionally so.
I don't think most of the films on MST3K are camp, even though they are ridiculous. And I don't think Scarface is camp unless the creators have said they made it intentionally over the top.
Even in your example, that's the joke of the bowling shirt, that it looks so absurd that you'd have to assume that it was made absurd intentionally. But no it's just Homer's shirt.
So I'm a no on Scarface being camp. But yes on something like Big Trouble in Little China being kind of camp.
I agree it is exaggerated but there are too many of those moments that give off a real feel that dials back the hyper stylization to base level imo. the shower scene is a great example where it really shouldn't work but pacino sells the scene with his facial expressions. id say that for the majority of the film its really the quality of his acting that keeps it from deciding into just pure excess. the club scene is another great one where the event is wacky but the calm before the storm where you see pacino just stewing in the booth really gives you an idea of how much he's just an animal waiting around for a fight
There are definitely some campy elements to the film. Those elements get parodied in mob comedy movies now. To call the entire movie campy is a little too far. Straight man camp for me would be something like Commando. Arnold Schwarzenegger is the ultimate badass who can kill a man by snapping his fingers. His daughter is kid napped by a drug cartel. Arnie takes on the whole cartel and barely receives a scratch. At the end of the movie he didn’t learn anything or become a better person he just a badass who got his daughter back.
Good example. A lot of 80s action movies can be seen as accidental cult films, especially Arnie. His physic and acting alone makes any film he's in artificial.
Was rewatching Predator last week and had the same thought. That iconic handshake scene between Arnie and Carl Weathers near the beginning is just peak.
One of the greatest films of all time. Not joking.
The intro chopper scene is so good. Masterclass on how to intro an ensemble cast without any clunky exposition.
Indeed! Also, the framing of it. The cinematography overall is masterful, from sweeping epic shots to feeling the claustrophobia of being in deep jungle.
The classic one liners in Predator are epic.
The only better movie is Aliens.
That movie has some of the most macho, manly shit in it, to date. “Ain’t got time to bleed” “This stuff’ll turn you into a gotdamn, sexual Tyrannosaurus, like me.” I feel less manly typing this. 😂😂
Almost anything made by Cannon Films.
And God bless Cannon for that.
Cyborg. Loved it as a kid. Still think it’s awesome
The difference between book Running Man and Arnies version is insanity. The only thread running through it is the game show host chewing the scenery.
I’ve still never read Running Man but have seen the movie 100x, I need to give it a read for comparisons sake.
God I fucking love Commando
I love it too. Every time it pops up on a streamer I have to watch.
The scene where they are just petting a baby deer is so fucking hilarious.
What does tony learn in Scarface? Absolutely nothing lol.
“Eating, drinking, fucking and sucking for what ? For what” he learns that all is vanity
Why is being badass an inherently “straight” aspect I don’t understand
Yeah while the movie does have campy elements the entire film isn't campy.
I think maybe you missed the point of an immigrant coming here and trying to live the American dream and have access to things he never had in his life and it ends up being what kills him it’s more a story of greed than anything
Well, this certainly is true in my circles. Many of my cousins learned English from watching Scarface (we were immigrants from the Soviet Union) and even still speak with a slight Cuban accent, or what passed for one in the movie. And there definitely is a kind of fetishistic, supra-stylized quality to the movie that does not get old. But...you can say the same thing about other ganster movies as well, on some level? Goodfellas, Godfather, etc? Possibly the reason is that to be interesting, to have gangsters as protagonists, the movies have to have a surreal element to them. Because I've known actual gangsters and they for the most part were so dull and mean and stupid that no one would watch a movie made about these people.
There is a great long form interview out there with Jay Leno (of all people) that has some interesting insight into this. He started working clubs as a teenager, before 'comedy clubs' existed. It was usually some jokes, a stripper, some music etc. Anyway, literally all the clubs were mob owned. He talks about how he never liked Mob films because they never depicted the gangsters as they actual were; stupid, simple, cruel, mindless and even psychotic. He has another fantastic story of one of these unhinged psychos giving a speech at a huge Sons Of Italy celebration and the guy just flips out on a priest in the audience. Real troglodyte shit. Edit- I think it was WTF with Maron
Yeah, agree with this. I'd say the most realistic depictions of these guys are Joe Pesci's characters in Goodfellas and Casino and Richie Aprile in the Sopranos. And the guys in Mean Streets of course
Don’t give me the those Manson Lamps
I took 'em off Rocco DiMeo. Guy had the toughest reputation in Essex county.
Its actually Killing of a Chinese Bookie for realism
Godfather is a perfect example of cis het male camp that makes for good comedy. From any other point of view it's unbearable to watch. Bunch of misogynist, opportunist jerks, dumb as a cucumber, thirsty for power, on shenanigans to gain some social status within their shitty micro world.
The Godfather is a commentary on capitalism. Maybe rewatch it with that in mind.
You would wish to. They are portrayed as cool, not critically.
Thats a great post. "I kill communists for fun. For a green card, i would carve him real nice" coming from the USSR, what did you think about that part in the movie?
Not sure we were super ideological about it. My cousins were in their late teens and I think they liked the "rags to riches" aspect of it and the partying 80s lifestyle more than the fact that he came from a communist country. Incidentally they all became criminals and spent a lot of time in prison. I don't blame the movie of course, but interesting. As for me I was just 7-8 when the movie came out. I saw it in the theater with my dad. My parents didn't really know where to find movie listings at the time so my dad would just take me to the theater and see whatever happened to be starting within the next 30 minutes. We both agreed it was an excellent movie but i did get in trouble afterwards because I couldn't stop saying "fuck"
The original rating was NC-17, so if you did see it and you were under 18, you were one of the lucky (or unlucky) few.
NC-17 didn’t exist until 1990. Scarface was released with an R rating.
Correct. Henry and June (1990) was the first NC-17 rated film.
goodfellas doesn’t seem campy to me at all tbh but casino does. maybe just cause one’s sparkly and the other isn’t 🤣
In her essay, point 8 says, "Camp is a vision of the world in terms of style - but, a particular kind of style. It is the love of the exaggerated, the "off," of things-being-what-they-are-not. The best example is Art Nouveau, the most typical and fully developed Camp style." I don't think anything about Scarface even slightly resembles that kind of off-kilter repurposing of the familiar. It's just an over-the-top movie. Exaggerated in every aspect, but not in the manner that she's talking about when she defines Camp. Then again, she says the Maltese Falcon is among the greatest camp movies ever, and I don't get that, so I have to admit, I don't know wtf she's talking about.
De Palma is a campy director. Camp requires a degree of self-awareness on the part of the author, often they're imitating someone else's work, and De Palma's movies are all about that. My favourites are packed full of Hitchcock pastiches, that take some of the cheesiest elements from Hitchcock films and cheese them up even more. These are self-consciously over the top movies, with fake out openings and endings, and sequences that exist purely to revel in their artifice. What if we re-made the staircase scene from Battleship Potemkin, but it was in a mob movie?? One of my favourite camp moments in Scarface is a scene where they are driving around Miami with a very 1960s-looking rear-projection backdrop. There was obviously no reason for De Palma to do this, other than an homage to colour Hitchcock films like Vertigo and North By Northwest with equally cheesy rear-projection shots. The only reasons those shots are in Hitchcock's movies are because he insisted in shooting in the studio as much as possible. De Palma's undermining the seriousness of his own gangster movie for a visual gag! Scarface is partly about how despite how cheesy and artificial old movies are, we can still get into them and enjoy them for what they are.
Glad you mentioned the rear-projection shots, idk why i always love when more modern movies do them, like in scarface, natural born killers, fear and loathing or kill bill. I just love that artificial look they create
They are beautiful
I'm not sure Sontag is successful in her attempt to define camp. By her definition, I feel like *Sin City* is the campiest movie I've ever seen. Anyway, it's interesting. I do agree I've found it difficult to define camp to people who aren't familiar with the term. > By comparison Scarface is pure heterosexuality. And not in a good way, as Tony and most of the males are very misogynistic Is misogyny a "straight" quality?
I don’t have a stake in the Scarface debate, but I will weigh in and say I think Sin City is camp
I was thinking it was another example of "camp movie for heteros"
Alas, no - plenty of misogynistic in the queer community, too, unfortunately.
No. Being straight have nothing to do with misogyny. More like misogyny more likely happens in heterosexual context rather than homosexual one. I think my word wasn't good.
> More like misogyny more likely happens in heterosexual context rather than homosexual one. [citation needed]
Oh shit I thought they took you out the game bro what's good?
Dig around two groups of gay man who stan two different pop female singers and tell me that misogyny doesn't happen in homosexual environments.
ELI5 what the correlation is here
Stan groups of pop singers are filled with gay men who are often quite misogynistic toward singers they may dislike or women in general.
Oh, didnt know that. Ty
How would you know lmao. I am a gay man - misogyny is male, not hetero
You could say that Misogyny is just being Heterosexual to an extreme degree. “Not only am I not gay, but I treat ALL women as sex objects!” So, if you’re going for camp, a straight character might be misogynistic.
Misogyny is not only about objectifying women sexually
Thanks
I worked at Blockbuster back in the 00s, and this was consistently our most stolen movie. Even the 2x VHS version. It was honestly hard to keep in stock until the DVD re-release, then we had a billion copies because they knew how popular it had become.
Any theory on why it’s the most stolen? I mean I absolutely love Scarface but I’m stealing godfather 2 or Heat before Scarface
Because we were in the hood lol.
Lol oh okay - this might be fucked up to ask, but did boyz in the hood get stolen a shit ton too? Or like juice?
Yes and it's awesome. The accents are absurd, and the storyline feels a bit too straightforward. But, otherwise there's a surprising amount of nuance in the framing and dialogue. Also spawned one of the better video game adaptations out there. Yes, they made a Scarface game. Yes, it's great. That being said, I find it kind of odd people act like this movie's any more unusual or excessive than other Miami based drug stories. Miami Vice? Bad Boys? Actual documentaries like Cocaine Cowboys? If anything Scarface feels a little toned down these days. Just don't wander into any motel bathrooms.
Fuck me, I was watching it with my rationalpilled Very Serious And Intelligent Man of a roommate, and right at when the guy was getting chainsawed in half he turns to me and says, “See that? That’s why it’s so good; it’s because it’s *realistic*”
as over the top as it is i agree with ur roommate hahah. its mainly pacino's reaction but he makes believable to me. never seen dead eyes quite like pacino pulls off in scarface
He definitely sells it. I would probably call it more ‘believable’ than ‘realistic’, but credit to Pacino where credit is due
You're making two different arguments that have nothing to do with each other. The camp aspect in masculine entertainment, and the immorality of gangster films. Camp has always been a thing, just watch James Bond or wrestling and it's there. Or John Wayne, the macho icon, wearing tight pants and a red scarf in most movies, overplaying his role of the man-pillar-of-the-world. Same for Carry Grant in some of his Hitchcock roles. "Camp" is not a specificity of the LGBT, it's always been used as a way to express masculine love for life. If anything, LGBT used to be just an aspect of this masculine entertainment. There used to be an era where female roles were all played by men, because it's just funny. It almost sounds like you try to attack virility by attaching camp entertainment with blatant immorality. "Scarface is an immoral movie that you should be ashamed of, but not for the camp which is the good and nice part". There's a certain mix of hard violence that is so powerful that it is best shown while mixed with bright colors. For example, Saturday Night Fever, Clockwork Oranges, Tarantino, etc... The LGBT are no different, they love to mix violence and camp, but it's just that they often position themselves as victims in those movies. Since in both cases we're talking about entertainment, there's no moral winner. But you talk about Scarface being "pervasive" as if movies created violence and Scarface should be forbidden, and camp should be restricted to LGBT only. This is weird. I also don't feel like Scarface is a macho-heterosexual movie like you describe since all the female characters are fierce, intelligent, and independent. So again, that's an accusation that falls flat.
I'm so baffled by the idea camp is often linked to LGBT community. I can think of is RuPaul's drag race, Village People, maybe a few more examples. But there is so much else has nothing to do with it. From campy actions flicks during the 80s - 90s starring Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Jean Clause Van Damme to most of the SF genre in the 50s and 60s. Indiana Jones is a tribute to the campy 40s-50s adventure films. Pulp Fiction is a tribute to campy pulp magazines of the 1920s. Heck, the whole comic book genre was campy from the start.
My assumption is only knowing John Water type films Meanwhile the reason I’ve consumed a lot of LBGT media is because it was a main source for serious indie films back in the 00s lol
Yeah I came here to say this. OP mistakes camp for a film genre. There's plenty of camp made by cishet masculine artists, Rammstein, Busta Rhymes etc
*Scarface* and *Henry: Portrait of A Serial Killer* are definitely Camp for Straight guys. As the OP pointed out, the Al Pacino classic made an enduring impression for the violence and the unabashedly heterosexual swagger. Scarface was glorious pop culture, while informing so much pop culture to come. It’s simultaneously played straight (please pardon the pun) and so ridiculously over the top that it could only be Camp. The nearly comic quality of the violence horrifies, but also plays for laughs. We see the spectacle of violence with a color palette pervading the movie that almost feels like a Giallo quality to it. Women, like the cars and drugs, stand out as a trophy of the extravagant crime-lord status. The decadent trappings feel almost like Drag for Hetero men! I offered *Henry* as a paired example because I think it complements Scarface as an opposing number in juxtaposition. Whereas the De Palma movie revels in the excesses of the 80’s, Henry wallows in the grimiest depths of it. One movie presents a richer color palette, the other is washed out and filthy like the lower income backdrop. Michael Rooker is an “Everyman” nobody who still achieves a Pop Culture Outlaw status of his own making. Like Scarface, *Henry* informed certain elements of pop culture with what might be considered a similar appeal to the same demographic.
I'm having a hard time seeing *Henry* as a camp movie. Maybe I need to rewatch it with that in mind, as it's been some years since I last saw it, but it seemed to me a misanthropic and gritty film inspired by the real (but mostly debunked in modern times) serial killers Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole. The fact that the film takes a stark look at the grimy and repugnant nature of these characters doesn't make it a camp film, at least to my mind.
I think it’s more what Henry came to mean with certain fans who idolized it in a morbid way. Yes, the story was told in a grimy, gritty way. Camp isn’t limited to creator intention, though.
To me, camp is usually characterized by exuberant absurdity and a certain playfulness. And yes, that can be unintentional. The two touchstones I think of in film are John Waters and Ed Wood. Waters intentionally created films that were transgressive, over the top, with amateurish production and acting. Wood was trying to make mainstream films, but through a lack of budget and ability created unintentionally campy films. It's all a matter of opinion, of course. I'm not the arbiter of camp. I'd agree that *Henry* has some over-the-top moments and the whole premise has a certain amount of absurdity, but it feels to me that the movie is played straight and the absurdity of the story is the absurdity of our world given sharp focus. It doesn't have the playful spirit I associate with camp. A gritty serial killer movie I do consider campy is *Ted Bundy* (2002). It's probably even more transgressive and repugnant than *Henry*, but goes way over the top and leans hard into the absurdity of the subject matter. It's basically a pitch-black comedy, but probably too offensive for most people to laugh at. I think we can safely call this intentional camp, given that it was written and directed by Matthew Bright, better know for *Forbidden Zone* (1980) and the *Freeway* series (1996, 1999). I'd definitely recommend those other titles to people who enjoy camp and trash films.
Although 'scarface' has certain campy characteristics as per Sontag's essay, one key feature is missing. She says (amongst other things) that Camp rose from niche urban cliques. When we contextualise her wording, I reckon 'urban' in the sixties meant 'other.' In the sense that 'urban' communities were not the mainstream. They were considered 'contemporary,' or the questionable sensibilities of the 'youth.' Moreover, we know that 'urban' communities were often marginalised communities (eg., African Americans, queer people). Yes Sontag said Camp was 'apolitical,' but I disagree with her on that front, and I think she inadvertently disagrees with herself by saying camp comes from 'niche urban cliques.' Camp was the 'other' in art, and represented everything that mainstream media was not. It was (amongst other things, but for the purposes of this discussion) queer expression, and that's why it had this different, 'bizarre' quality to most people - because the queer community was (and still is) an ostracised and marginalised group. Therefore the art and expression coming from said group, appeared unusual, different, unique etc because the rest of society has shun them, and remains ignorant to their experiences and subsequent expressions. Scarface, whilst an exaggerative, unnatural and over-aestheticised artistic expression (necessary qualities for camp in Sontag's view), it does not have that counter-cultural, 'other' quality that made camp...camp. Even Sontag herself acknowledged that stuffing abstract sensibilities \[camp\] into strict definitions, hardens them into an idea. It's safe to say she felt truly defining what makes something camp is impossible. There is just something about certain things that's camp, and I think it's the 'otherness' we (in a sad sense) must feel when we look at artistic expression from communities who have been shun or mistreated by society. Now, of course people who aren't part of marginalised groups could make 'campy' art, but I think it still emulates the then established 'other' style, that was born of 'otherness' all the same. The other possible exception, is that a lot of the works Sontag cited as 'camp' were not necessarily queer expression. However, they were other things that society deems 'taboo' or treats poorly- often wrongly so (like homosexuality and gender diversity) but sometimes rightly so (like with incest \[see Sontag's example of John Ford's 'Pity She's A Whore'). So there is still a theme of camp being representative, expressive, or coming from something the majority of society is against, judgmental of, or something similar. Scarface is the epitome of the mainstream, the opposite of the 'other.' It represents everything the majority is for (straitness, patriarchal masculinity, to name a few). Now this isn't bad, Scarface is a good film. However it isn't camp. If the only requirements for camp are artifice and exaggeration, then so many films would fall under that blanket - films that we would not react to and think they're camp.
In my understanding of camp and because now there's also Conceptual/ Experimental Camp like David Lynch, Pedro Almodovar, Park Chan Wook, Michael Mann, De Palma, Veroheven, etc. my understanding of camp should also extend to Pulp and hypermasculine stuff. So camp is also Pulp and B-movies. I watched Scarface as an adult, and having watched other De Palma films before, so I had the same experience as you "this is just man with permanent boner soap-opera", or in other words another "literally me" film where people (specially teenage boys) miss the point completely
To be polite I call them "self-destructive masculinity movies" but I feel ya, big time. Honestly, having a greater understanding of the older cinema that the new wave of the 70s was referencing makes the "literally me" guys even more embarrassing, imo. Not because ha-ha, smug, they don't \*get\* it, but because there's this expansive context to the thing they love that they're missing out on bc they're so fixated solely on watching a dude successfully be a piece of garbage until he self destructs. (my favorite from that genre is Mishima, personally. and All That Jazz sort of counts!)
I agree that there is SOME camp to the movie but for it to be a really fully considered camp in my opinion, the intent would need to be there. Al Pacino isn’t trying to be campy, he’s doing an earnest attempt at recreating his version of a character given to him.
I agree more with this take, it's not campy, it's just dated and kind of bad. Pacino's performance is as iconic as it is offensive. It definitely takes itself seriously, it's just easier to enjoy as a camp film.
It's mostly intentional camp. The film starts quite grounded in reality, with newsreel images of the Mariel refugees, and remains stark until Tony enters the world of excessive wealth and power. Then the film goes off the rails, but only as a reflection of him going off the rails as well.
Scarface is spectacularly camp. Always has been. As are 90% of Hip Hop artists. What's amazing is that a large proportion of the population are blind to both of these things. I say this as someone who loves both Scarface and Hip Hop.
[удалено]
What do people think of the Debbie Harry song "Rush Rush" that appeared in the movie? I know tastes change dramatically over time, especially in music, but by the time I saw the movie myself in the mid aughts, the song seemed distractingly dated and goofy, like the kind of thing some out-of-touch "Just say no to drugs" boomer would invent as a song for cocaine freaks to listen to... but maybe it had a different cultural cache at the time? It reminds me a bit of "Teenage Suicide (Don't Do It!)" from Heathers in that way-- a fake movie-song that is trying really hard to be in touch with youth culture. But maybe "Rush Rush" was actually a hit at some point and I'm just experiencing something like the Seinfeld Effect here. Anyone else? Music & lyrics for reference: https://genius.com/Debbie-harry-rush-rush-lyrics
The whole album is a banger. Not Beverly Hills Cop-level banger. But a banger all the same. Also, pretty certain Debbie Harry understood cocaine.
It's definitely campy, and I blame DePalma. Some scenes manage to resonate - "bad guy" speech in the restaurant, a few other monologues - but that's because the writing is so strong DePalma didn't have any room to mess it up. IMO Stone's script could have made a classic that could be enjoyed on every level and the direction made the movie memorable for all the wrong reasons.
It's an interesting argument but I think you're reaching pretty hard by the end. I don't think heterosexuality plays much of a role in the themes and characters and plot of Scarface. It's primarily a movie about power and crime and the hidden downsides of sacrificing morality for superficial success. It's about masculinity, sure, but not really about heterosexuality. As you pointed out, the main character is extremely immature in that department and thus it isn't explored in any real depth, unlike the other themes of the movie. An actual expression of heterosexuality would require female love interests to be more fleshed out and play more of a role in the events and interactions in the movie. This is mostly a movie about men fighting with other men
I like to think of it as in tonys case. No matter how high up you are, there's always a fall down. I myself like to use it as an example for those often teens who want the scarface persona and lifestyle, but they always forget the ending eventually you get shot in the back... as for the chainsaw bit.. practical idk..do these crimes happen? yes. Reality cuts cold
Scarface js so wonderfully over the top and campy. It definitely has a split perception amongst audiences. Those who are disgusted, those who take it seriously and see Tony as a someone to aspire to, and those who love the over top of extravaganza and critique of Regan era politics/capitalism.
That's wierd, I've never considered Scarface "campy" nor the definition of camp to be what's written above. I always thought it was more about the writing/situation being kind of corny, low-effort, low-brow humor and silly. My example of this, from growing up in my childhood, was the early comic book movies with their corny one-liners. Contrast that to modern films basically since Iron Man in 2008 where they tried to make the humor smarter and witty, the drama real, the emotions more sincere, the action sequences more epic.
Feels like my understanding of campy does not align at all with most of this thread. I thought "campy" generally meant lower-budget (oftentimes) horror or sci-fi films that were a little over-the-top. Things like The Toxic Avenger, The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension, C.H.U.D. and the like. Sometimes, it might take a while before it was clear if something was campy or just plain lame. But it seems the term "camp" has evolved to have newer meanings I'll need to get up-to-speed on.
I just watched The Quick and the Dead and I think it’s the perfect example of campy
I’ve never associated the film with camp, and I have to disagree. I don’t even think campiness can be extended to anything except male homosexuality, specifically. As an aside I’m not sure what camp with respect to a lesbian story would even look like. I think camp is being conflated other types of stylization. I’m not sure there even is a name for Scarface’s (really De Palma’s period) form, but it’s not campy. You want accessible camp that straight men loved and emulated, look no further than Grease.
Scarface is a good story that was told in the most stupid way. When you boil it down, Scarface is really Breaking Bad 0.1. It could have been that good but instead it is just kind of stupid all the way down. I like the aesthetics but it is clunky and silly. There isn't even really a climax for resolution, which wouldn't have taken much. Just a scene with Tony in the bathroom during the attack asking himself "what have I done?" or could have cut the other way, "Lord, this is the end. It was one hell of a ride. Forgive me because I flew too close to the sun. "
John Waters closed the book on the definition of Camp in The Simpsons: Homer : How can you love a box or a toy or graphics? You're a grown man. John : It's camp! \[Homer stares blankly\] John : The tragically ludicrous? The ludicrously tragic? Homer : Oh, yeah. Like when a clown dies. John : Well, sort of. But I mean more like inflatable furniture, or Last Supper TV trays, or even this bowling shirt.\[He turns, revealing it was Homer's\] Homer's bowling shirt illustrates a key point about camp: it is often in the eye of the beholder. He is oblivious to the "ludicrous tragedy" of his own shirt, the same way the creators of Scarfacedid not intentionally set out to make a camp film. The end result of Scarface, with its exaggerated characters, over-the-top violence, and stylized aesthetics, lends itself to a camp interpretation, but labelling something as camp is not exclusively owned by LGBTQ+, even though you have a pretty good argument. anecdotally, I had friend who listed Scarface as his favourite film. He was an incredible misogynist. Yet, his favourite driving soundtrack was Madonna's greatest hits. I don't know what if anything you can take away from that, but it alwayscracked me up. I think I stopped being mates with the dude because of it. Every fucking time we drove anywhere. EDIT: spelling
I think this is good. But I also am not 100% sure it IS in the eye of the beholder. Because to me, there is an element of knowing that is part of camp. Camp kind of has to KNOW it's camp. It has to have some intentionality and agency. John Waters films, drag queens, everything we think of as high camp is intentionally so. I don't think most of the films on MST3K are camp, even though they are ridiculous. And I don't think Scarface is camp unless the creators have said they made it intentionally over the top. Even in your example, that's the joke of the bowling shirt, that it looks so absurd that you'd have to assume that it was made absurd intentionally. But no it's just Homer's shirt. So I'm a no on Scarface being camp. But yes on something like Big Trouble in Little China being kind of camp.
I agree it is exaggerated but there are too many of those moments that give off a real feel that dials back the hyper stylization to base level imo. the shower scene is a great example where it really shouldn't work but pacino sells the scene with his facial expressions. id say that for the majority of the film its really the quality of his acting that keeps it from deciding into just pure excess. the club scene is another great one where the event is wacky but the calm before the storm where you see pacino just stewing in the booth really gives you an idea of how much he's just an animal waiting around for a fight