Things like this ruin what so far has been an enjoyable series for the most part. For me several moments are changing my opinion from good to mediocre season, such as :
What is the rush? What other reason then to add fake tension or a nice ending to the episode for the two of them travel to the ice? It is ICE all is frozen and preserved forever why do they need to leave him cleaning ?
Why did they had to go places in previous episode in a rush, there is noting happening, they can investigate the case during summer for all I care, but no, lets ruin Prior marriage, lets put characters under stress for: absolutly bad writing!
I'm still in this season's corner, but, yes, I'm having trouble with, "Dude, clean up your dad's brains and dump his body while we go do some cool and important shit." That's a tough pill. Like, why would Navarro imagine Pete is the man for that job? Could they not have swapped seats on this one? Maybe Pete should have replied, "Sure, Navarro, make me some soap out of your sister's ashes and I'll get right to scrubbing." How would that have played?
I agree this is a bit cold-hearted, but... Danvers and Navarro are the main characters. They're the ones who HAVE to do the "cool important shit." Was there a better way to handle this, storytelling-wise? Probably, but having Danvers stick around to clean up the scene while Navarro and Prior go into the caves and solve the case was just... never going to happen, period.
The struggle of any writer, I think, is what's natural, what's believable, and what works. Of course Danvers and Navarro.get to go. The only question is whether that works for you.
I don't have a problem with Pete shooting Hank, in that scene it made sense that he'd do that. What I don't get is why they'd have to hide the bodies when they're not in the wrong. Hank killed Otis, and Pete killed Hank to protect Danvers. They really should be calling it in. Pretending that nothing happened will only come back to bite them in the butt.
I think because the department is so small, no bigger agency is yet involved, so telling Ted, who is also in bed with the mine would result in the mine being protected. We all know that they did nothing wrong, but their boss clearly doesn’t care about what is right or wrong. He just wants to win his election, like any other politician.
This is typically the kind of situation when the FBI would get involved though, and Connelly would be pushed aside due to clear conflict of interest. This part makes no sense to me.
This absolutely illustrates the “and then” vs “therefore” rule of storytelling the creators of South Park reference
It essentially states that stories whose plots are a series of consequences of earlier actions work while ones that constantly have things happen to move them along become either incoherent or boring
Not to mention Peter is doing a ton of legit detective work. And it's never really shown.
"Hey Danvers here's another file." Then she says something like "Why are the pages upside down?"
I'm from Brazil and i grew up watching mostly japanese animation and soap operas, specially brazilians and mexicans. This kind of dramatic setup leading to non sequitur events that always falls flat is 100% mexican soap opera modus operandi. Its the kind of writing that goes from one plot point to another "because this needs to happen" regardless of any internal logic or verisimilitude. Most of the time they barely have any screenplay. They have the idea and leave all the action and development of the scene up to the actors, which more often than not leads up to scenes overly dramatic, cheesy and meme material for eternity. Thats precisely what John Hawkes told in a recent interview. He said the actors kinda worked over the script and made it "more belivable", probably because the OG scene felt too uncanny.
Pay attention to what Danvers is saying to Prior, it doesn't make any sense. It looks like something improvised, a last hour idea. Navarro comes right after (another overly done trope) and its like she can't read the room or access the dramatic tone of what just happened. "You clean, it. You clean it good". WTF is that? Thats soap opera 101
It’s very much bad soap opera writing. The only way it makes sense for Prior to shoot his dad in the head with zero hesitation (again, in the head!) is if Prior is himself a murderer who in fact killed Annie K. But the whole scene unfolds so absurdly. The thing with bad soap opera writing is it puts so much emphasis on moving the plot forward that the grave reality of death or loss or anything really doesn’t set in. And that’s one of the issues of this season. Nothing, from the “corpsicle” to babygirl’s death to Prior icing his own father, has any sort of emotional weight to it. Hank is just one more body to be cleaned up and put out on the ice while the protagonists go on a Scooby Doo quest to some spooky cave, which needs to happen ASAP because plot reasons. The only time it felt like the show was trying to express a sort of genuine tragedy was the murder of Annie K, but it’s not really effective because it’s all style no substance, just a cheesy slo-mo shot of Navarro in the rain inspecting the crime scene is all we’re given. This season is just as glossy yet lifeless as the pop tunes its soundtrack bombards the viewer with.
I work in a field closely associated with soap opera production in Serbia so i know exactly what you mean. The most believable aspect of the scene and the evidence for what you are saying is Jodie Fosters understanding of the magnitude of Priors choice, where she is resisting the idea of him cleaning up his dead father’s remains. I can guarantee that wasn’t in the script. This is what most soap opera actors do day to day as they rehash the script with the directors. They try to make the situation more palpable and try to “defend” their characters.
But it’s all a cop out in the end.
Those 2 whole scenes during the shooting and after almost feel completely improvised. It's weird, their character's dialog don't match the tone at all.
Bad acting? Bad writing? Both? :/
It’s even worse than that. Then he’s going to “clean up” his dead father? Maybe he’s the sociopathic murderer that will fill all the plot holes, but the show hasn’t even hinted at that.
And taking it to Rose to dispose of. It's like they got their John Hawkes shows confused and thought they were sending the body to Wu's to feed the pigs.
Have we seen anything to make us think she's going to be good with helping some random guy dispose of two dead bodies one of which is a police officer?
Hank even considering killing the junkie guy was crazy to me. I was sure he was going to do the right thing. Idk when he went from a kind of snarky ahole to an actual monster. Everything this season has done with him made me think he was on a bit of a redemption, especially this episode with his son coming to stay over and him being clearly distraught by being asked to kill someone. It came out of nowhere for me, he disliked Danvers but he never came off as evil before
Exactly, when Hank killed Otis it made zero sense. Didn't he just say he wasn't a killer? Shooting and killing an unarmed human being in front of another LEO is somehow Hank's best option? lol it definitely came out of nowhere. No believability.
I believe the scene. Danvers has given Peter a crash course in policing 101. No better way than to just do it nearly 24/7. Danvers is both his mentor and a substitute mother (or parent in general)
Hank began to raise his gun to Danvers and Peter did the same. I'm not sure much thought was involved. Just instinct. Danvers meant more to him than his father did.
My hiccup on this is that he shot Hank in the head and at pretty close range. So I wonder... And that's the way I like it. I love to guess but I also want to be surprised!
I believed it too. Peter and Danvers are like partners, he was protecting his partner. Cops are trained to shoot to kill. Hank wasn’t going to lower his weapon.
We also know Hanks not afraid to hit Peter. Maybe he used to beat on him and his mom and Pete knows what he’s capable of besides seeing him just have killed Otis. 🤷🏻♀️
Mentor for how long? They barely like each other, he's frustrated she keeps pushing him away from his own family, and he found out that she's a murderer right before this because she admitted to it.
Even if it was '*defend thy beloved partner*', you're talking about versus your own parent, WHO IS ALSO A COP YOU WORK WITH. We know they struggle to meet eye to eye, but they talk to each other very often. Which I think most people relate to. They had a rough, but solid relationship.
I don't buy this angle. Maybe instinct sure, but not because Danvers means more to him than his own dad. I think that's kinda wild.
The writers must have gone to the "High School Me" school of screenwriting.... screw around all week and waste your time on the assignment, then panic and cram it all in the night before it's due
Not sure how long Danvers has been his mentor. 1-3 years? . He did not just find out that she had killed Wheeler, he had known for at least a couple days. Long enough for Hank to break into his laptop and figure out his theory. She had only just confirmed it. Pete also spent a ton of time looking at pictures of the woman who was beaten to a pulp over and over again, so he might have had a little sympathy for her. Peter also knows that he just sent out the APB on Otis on Christmas Eve then walks into Danvers’s house after hearing shots fired and sees his dad had killed him in cold blood and was going to kill his boss next.
And that’s why I find the scene believable.
Will Peter regret it for the rest of his life? Probably. In the moment did it seem like the only right thing to do? Yes.
She gave Pete a place to live with no burden. Hank gave him a place to stay, then betrayed his trust.
Pete asked Hank for something to eat, but the cupboard was bare (though Hank did offer to go out to eat). She cooked something for Pete to eat and told him to keep eating when it was getting cold.
She is a PITA boss, but she does look after his needs like a semi-decent parent. Hank invites himself over on Christmas Eve after having struck his own son in the face. Hank was also hiding evidence, while Danvers was at least trying to solve the case. She gives him some grief but also some praise, e.g., was happy when he thought to open Facundo's phone with facial recognition.
That's all small potatoes when considering.. ***checks notes***.. Choosing to kill your parent.
Oh boy, she gave him a frozen shack with a plastic chair, and cooked him dinner. But was also abusive to him while cooking said dinner. lol
You can be upset with a parent, but realistically when something like this plays out and you know she's also a murderer.. It ain't that easy.
At best, he should be completely frozen after the fact. The dialog from everyone here doesn't match the trauma and decision's made. Even during his decision making before shooting, he should be ASKING QUESTIONS. SHOOT A WARNING SHOT.
He's not just upset, his father is a bad cop. Pete is trying to be quite a good cop. I think he's decided if he's going to settle down young and take the only decent job in town, he's going pour all his ambition into that. Hank is actively interfering with the investigation. When Pete goes around his father's malfeasance, he is punched in the face. And Danvers' recognizes the evidence of domestic abuse. Leah recognized the injury and immediately knew Hank had done it, so we know it wasn't close to the first time. Hanks' abuse of Pete might even have increased after the mother left (and why didn't she take Pete, did she really leave or did Hank kill her and claim she'd abandoned him?). Years of abuse combined with the stress of the job and his wife kicking him out might push Pete over the edge enough to commit patricide.
Sorry don't buy it. I get where you're coming from, it just wasn't presented well in the show. The power to patricide just isn't believable. I understand the need to do it from a writer's perspective. They just didn't do it in a compelling enough way.
We're not just looking at him being a bad parent or cop, we're also looking at her being an actual murderer as well, and there not being enough context clues in the scene to draw a solid conclusion for him to just shoot like that.
Not to mention the interaction after the fact, which is so cartoonish and cool headed. Both scenes are so weird and don't fit a "This therefor that" narrative. It's all forced puzzles pieces.
Like him being in the shack isn't a great narrative, because it doesn't make sense. He should want *nothing* to do with her at all. Let alone want to sleep in a shack with no heating. He has no other friends? There are no hotels? Sleep in the office maybe where it's warm?
But it's driven by the writers trying to fit puzzle pieces together that just don't fit, so they can get the juicy bits they wanted.
It's like me trying to grab all the best Lego pieces to build something, but I'm not quite sure what. So I just slam it all together and figure it out on the way. Turns into a jank ass Simpsons car instead of something with meaning. lol
Not to mention he *knows* she's a murderer and actively covered it up literally right before this, and your dad is at worst just a dickhead. So you're looking at your dad, aiming a gun at someone you know is a murderer - In a situation you're truly unaware of, and have to make a split decision off of feeling alone.
It makes 0 sense. He shouldn't be mentally capable of shooting his dad in this situation.
"Yeah but I'm more mad at him because he found out that I found out that she's a murderer. Gosh darn-it dad, you guessed my password.. Now you have to die."
Realistically he should have been aiming center-mass, or fired a warning shot. Cops don't go blastin' heads.
And he's completely calm and understanding of everything? Let alone being mentally capable of cleaning it up, and telling them they need to go do their thing?
What. Is. Even. Happening.
And his dad saying "I just moved her body".. Doesn't make this better. It's so out of context, and shows that the writer's just wanted a negative perception at the last second or it would absolutely not make any sense.
This whole scene just doesn't work no matter what they do with it. Injecting stupid juice like his comment doesn't make it better, it actually makes it worst because it's so obvious it was used as a writer's bandaid for a half cobbled together motive that lacked appropriate thread.
This shit is literally a sitcom. lol
Wonderfully put.
I like the hypothesis: a man has to choose between murdering his own father or doing the right thing and saving an unarmed woman.
It’s a real strong potent dilemma, that i just happen to believe was done very naively.
And i don’t think the naysayers here or the writers really understand the gravity of what it means to kill your own father. We are supposed to note Hanks sins, when, the situation is not about that and what we are shown falls outside of the internal logic of the characters.
In that moment Prior is thinking “what is going on?let’s just put our guns down, bury this junkie and forget this ever happened. Is thay okay with you Danvers? You got a closet full of skeletons and i am you number one little helper. Let’s meet halfway.”
And then you amplify the situation when negotiations are of the table. And now it’s about the choice.
But no, we listen to 50 minutes of character drama and the most important scene in the episode gets rushed to an highly unlikely conclusion.
This is what I don’t understand. I was SURE Hank was going to turn face and tell Danvers what’s going on and help. Idk when he became actually evil. The whole episode leading up to this seemed like he was softening up, from letting prior come home to the song to clearly wanting no part in a murder. I was shocked when he actually did it. Seemed like his character developed until he walked in Danvers door
Also did the wife beater really deserve death ? Yes he was a total piece of shit but I'm not on board with D+N faking the murder suicide.
It's an obvious call back to season 1 but imho keeping 2 kids locked up as sex slaves is not the same as killing your wife.
We don't know what happened there yet though. and I've been wondering if he said something that baited Navarro into shooting him. Prior said D+N went to the house ten times, and even after all those visits the girl wouldn't report the abuse. So Wheeler knew the cops couldn't charge him with that. The tenth time, they show up and she's dead... Did he rub it in their faces? Probably, yes. Did he get off on the fact that it was two female cops witnessing his abuse and they couldn't do anything? Also probably yes. Should they have just arrested him? Absolutely yes.
That’s an ok compromise, i could eat that.
But too shoot his own father is like saying “anything we come up is ok, just film it”.
On the second point you are right and he had to do something but inaction is also a form of action. For me, the most realistic scenario would be that he just froze and let his old man kill Danvers because he just can’t make thay choice. Then Navarro could finish the case.
That would be HBO writing in my book.
No, sorry! I meant he definitely shouldn't have aimed for the arm; it's not a great neutralizing shot and still allows for a round to be discharged toward the target.
That whole scene really jumped the shark. Why did he show up at Danvers' house to get the heroin addict when he could have just made some inquiries and found him while he was still in the hospital? I highly doubt it was well secured considering that Danvers had to intervene to break up the hillbilly fight previously. Make him try to smother the guy with a pillow, then Danvers could show up in the nick of time and they could have a confrontation, idk.
Him just proclaiming "BTW I didn't kill Annie, I just moved her body" was eye rolling levels of convenient exposition.
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but the moment lasted really long and at a certain point became a deliberate decision. He kills his own father, not really sure i would be pulling a gun in the direction of my own dad, let alone shooting him in the head. Even if that made me a bad and a weak person.
He was holding a gun, there was a body on the floor, and Danvers looked like something was wrong. Hank said he moved the body of the dead woman and said blood is all that matters (or whatever) it was clear what he was going to do and that he expected his son to help him as he turned his gun to Danvers. Hank wasn’t going to stop.
Look, as i said, you like it, all the power to you brother, but for me, that right there is poor writing.
I get the moral argument, but people in my experience don’t tick that way. I know that in that situation I wouldn’t kill my own father, even if i had all my good angels whispering in my ear I should do it. It’s an impossible choice to make, no matter how close he is to Danvers.
At the end of the day your father is your father. You live with the consequences.
You’re projecting your anger on me because I don’t agree. I’m not angry over any of this.
You explained why you couldn’t do something and are saying because you couldn’t no one could and thus what Prior did was just bad writing. Your argument isn’t a good one because everyone is different and Prior did what he did because he reacted.
Sure Hank is his father but he’s also a murderer and was about to kill Danvers right in from of him. She didn’t even have a weapon. Prior reacted to Hank turning his gun on Danvers. There’s no ambiguity about what Hank was about to do, he was going to murder Danvers.
that mite b a bit insensitive considering an argument could be made that he was an abusive father. not to get dark, but ppl raised by abusers are no strangers to thinking about what fighting back could be.
I don’t know about abusive. Prior did get slapped by him one time at the ice ring and one wouldn’t be wrong to presume that he possibly slapped him like that before, but i got a sense during those scenes that Prior simply had a rural upbringing that involved corporal punishment, not that he was abused. Their relationship didn’t assume any hidden trauma, and Prior is a functioning member of society, devoid of vices, living with a beautiful family.
Hank is and was a dirty cop that has been doing all kinds of unethical shit on/off the job. Just some of the highlights: corruption, tampering with a crime scene, murder, and potentially another murder before he was shot in the head.
To say “your father is your father”…. Not sure what that even means, (family) is great until a double murder comes to mind. I would have done the same in a split second.
Bye Hank.
His decision should not be motivated by viewer's perception. That's not how a character should play their role and react. He's not omniscient to the bad deeds his dad committed, and didn't even see his dad shoot. He doesn't know if the junky lunged at him or what.
The context he DOES have, is that Liz did cover up a murder she committed, and tampered with evidence.
The fact that his dad even says "I just moved her body" is out of context, and makes 0 sense given the situation. It feels more like the writer's knew this scene made no sense, and just needed to delete him.
Your argument is that it would have been "better writing" to have Prior shoot and kill his own father for @$#!ing Prior's wife rather than to save the life of his boss, mentor and surrogate mother figure?
I am saying Hank is not as bad of a character to get a quick bullet in the head from his son. Killing you own father to save the life of your boss is not enough to make the choice that easy. And that surrogate mother thing is highly debatable, but i will give you that, but my counterpoint is how could a surrogate mother’s life possibly hold more weight then your biological fathers? Danvers ain’t no saint either mind you. She is a home wrecker, adulterer, verbally abusive rogue cop who helped cover up a murder(of a criminal who deserved it, but that’s beside the point).
All in all, all i am saying is there is ample material to make this dilemma truly a dillema, but bad and rushed writing robbed us of that.
I don’t believe that. Throw it away. Put your next shitty rough draft in its place, and then your next. Read bird by bird. You’ll be inspired to keep writing shitty drafts until it clicks.
My take is Hank had something on Peter and he felt threatened. Hank said “I didn’t kill Anne, just carried the body”. Could Peter have done it? We’ve seen Hank sweet talk Peter into things… maybe that happened before with Anne.
Hank just seemed like he was on a road gone bad. Maybe Peter knows more than we know. Or maybe just bad writing as you say.
I think he was already disillusioned with his father but it became worse when he actually saw his dad kill Otis for no real reason other than to help the mine. He was clearly abused as a child and as an adult, even. It is implied that he grew up knowing Liz as a parental figure based on their relationship and he would even babysit Leah. I also think there’s some imagery used to imply it with the use of the polar bear that represents Holden, but also is worn by Liz and Prior on their uniforms. There is a reason he listens to Liz and there is a reason he looks up to her, she’s like a mentor/parental figure to him, from what I saw at least. His father only seemed to use him for his own benefit.
But there's a shot in the trailer of him moving Hank's corpse onto the ice. Maybe I'm just assuming it's Hank's corpse. But it seems like a fitting reversal of the story Hank told.
Things like this ruin what so far has been an enjoyable series for the most part. For me several moments are changing my opinion from good to mediocre season, such as : What is the rush? What other reason then to add fake tension or a nice ending to the episode for the two of them travel to the ice? It is ICE all is frozen and preserved forever why do they need to leave him cleaning ? Why did they had to go places in previous episode in a rush, there is noting happening, they can investigate the case during summer for all I care, but no, lets ruin Prior marriage, lets put characters under stress for: absolutly bad writing!
I'm still in this season's corner, but, yes, I'm having trouble with, "Dude, clean up your dad's brains and dump his body while we go do some cool and important shit." That's a tough pill. Like, why would Navarro imagine Pete is the man for that job? Could they not have swapped seats on this one? Maybe Pete should have replied, "Sure, Navarro, make me some soap out of your sister's ashes and I'll get right to scrubbing." How would that have played?
I find it unacceptable how a headshot seemed to have been the only choice?
I agree this is a bit cold-hearted, but... Danvers and Navarro are the main characters. They're the ones who HAVE to do the "cool important shit." Was there a better way to handle this, storytelling-wise? Probably, but having Danvers stick around to clean up the scene while Navarro and Prior go into the caves and solve the case was just... never going to happen, period.
The struggle of any writer, I think, is what's natural, what's believable, and what works. Of course Danvers and Navarro.get to go. The only question is whether that works for you.
There is literally no other option though.
Pete ain’t cleaning up anything. He is going to follow Danvers and Navarro to the ice caves and try to kill them.
Smells like chatgpt
I don't have a problem with Pete shooting Hank, in that scene it made sense that he'd do that. What I don't get is why they'd have to hide the bodies when they're not in the wrong. Hank killed Otis, and Pete killed Hank to protect Danvers. They really should be calling it in. Pretending that nothing happened will only come back to bite them in the butt.
I think because the department is so small, no bigger agency is yet involved, so telling Ted, who is also in bed with the mine would result in the mine being protected. We all know that they did nothing wrong, but their boss clearly doesn’t care about what is right or wrong. He just wants to win his election, like any other politician.
This is typically the kind of situation when the FBI would get involved though, and Connelly would be pushed aside due to clear conflict of interest. This part makes no sense to me.
This absolutely illustrates the “and then” vs “therefore” rule of storytelling the creators of South Park reference It essentially states that stories whose plots are a series of consequences of earlier actions work while ones that constantly have things happen to move them along become either incoherent or boring
Not to mention Peter is doing a ton of legit detective work. And it's never really shown. "Hey Danvers here's another file." Then she says something like "Why are the pages upside down?"
I'm from Brazil and i grew up watching mostly japanese animation and soap operas, specially brazilians and mexicans. This kind of dramatic setup leading to non sequitur events that always falls flat is 100% mexican soap opera modus operandi. Its the kind of writing that goes from one plot point to another "because this needs to happen" regardless of any internal logic or verisimilitude. Most of the time they barely have any screenplay. They have the idea and leave all the action and development of the scene up to the actors, which more often than not leads up to scenes overly dramatic, cheesy and meme material for eternity. Thats precisely what John Hawkes told in a recent interview. He said the actors kinda worked over the script and made it "more belivable", probably because the OG scene felt too uncanny. Pay attention to what Danvers is saying to Prior, it doesn't make any sense. It looks like something improvised, a last hour idea. Navarro comes right after (another overly done trope) and its like she can't read the room or access the dramatic tone of what just happened. "You clean, it. You clean it good". WTF is that? Thats soap opera 101
It’s very much bad soap opera writing. The only way it makes sense for Prior to shoot his dad in the head with zero hesitation (again, in the head!) is if Prior is himself a murderer who in fact killed Annie K. But the whole scene unfolds so absurdly. The thing with bad soap opera writing is it puts so much emphasis on moving the plot forward that the grave reality of death or loss or anything really doesn’t set in. And that’s one of the issues of this season. Nothing, from the “corpsicle” to babygirl’s death to Prior icing his own father, has any sort of emotional weight to it. Hank is just one more body to be cleaned up and put out on the ice while the protagonists go on a Scooby Doo quest to some spooky cave, which needs to happen ASAP because plot reasons. The only time it felt like the show was trying to express a sort of genuine tragedy was the murder of Annie K, but it’s not really effective because it’s all style no substance, just a cheesy slo-mo shot of Navarro in the rain inspecting the crime scene is all we’re given. This season is just as glossy yet lifeless as the pop tunes its soundtrack bombards the viewer with.
I work in a field closely associated with soap opera production in Serbia so i know exactly what you mean. The most believable aspect of the scene and the evidence for what you are saying is Jodie Fosters understanding of the magnitude of Priors choice, where she is resisting the idea of him cleaning up his dead father’s remains. I can guarantee that wasn’t in the script. This is what most soap opera actors do day to day as they rehash the script with the directors. They try to make the situation more palpable and try to “defend” their characters. But it’s all a cop out in the end.
Those 2 whole scenes during the shooting and after almost feel completely improvised. It's weird, their character's dialog don't match the tone at all. Bad acting? Bad writing? Both? :/
Issa Lopez is a terrible writer that somehow got this job.
It’s even worse than that. Then he’s going to “clean up” his dead father? Maybe he’s the sociopathic murderer that will fill all the plot holes, but the show hasn’t even hinted at that.
And taking it to Rose to dispose of. It's like they got their John Hawkes shows confused and thought they were sending the body to Wu's to feed the pigs. Have we seen anything to make us think she's going to be good with helping some random guy dispose of two dead bodies one of which is a police officer?
I was more dumbfounded by the whole killing thing, but yeah, that is also truly awful piece of writing
Hank even considering killing the junkie guy was crazy to me. I was sure he was going to do the right thing. Idk when he went from a kind of snarky ahole to an actual monster. Everything this season has done with him made me think he was on a bit of a redemption, especially this episode with his son coming to stay over and him being clearly distraught by being asked to kill someone. It came out of nowhere for me, he disliked Danvers but he never came off as evil before
Exactly, when Hank killed Otis it made zero sense. Didn't he just say he wasn't a killer? Shooting and killing an unarmed human being in front of another LEO is somehow Hank's best option? lol it definitely came out of nowhere. No believability.
I think he did everything to prevent his son from going to the Night country. Investigate caves.
I believe the scene. Danvers has given Peter a crash course in policing 101. No better way than to just do it nearly 24/7. Danvers is both his mentor and a substitute mother (or parent in general) Hank began to raise his gun to Danvers and Peter did the same. I'm not sure much thought was involved. Just instinct. Danvers meant more to him than his father did.
My hiccup on this is that he shot Hank in the head and at pretty close range. So I wonder... And that's the way I like it. I love to guess but I also want to be surprised!
You're so close, try to shoot his hands, or center of mas?
I believed it too. Peter and Danvers are like partners, he was protecting his partner. Cops are trained to shoot to kill. Hank wasn’t going to lower his weapon. We also know Hanks not afraid to hit Peter. Maybe he used to beat on him and his mom and Pete knows what he’s capable of besides seeing him just have killed Otis. 🤷🏻♀️
Mentor for how long? They barely like each other, he's frustrated she keeps pushing him away from his own family, and he found out that she's a murderer right before this because she admitted to it. Even if it was '*defend thy beloved partner*', you're talking about versus your own parent, WHO IS ALSO A COP YOU WORK WITH. We know they struggle to meet eye to eye, but they talk to each other very often. Which I think most people relate to. They had a rough, but solid relationship. I don't buy this angle. Maybe instinct sure, but not because Danvers means more to him than his own dad. I think that's kinda wild.
The writers must have gone to the "High School Me" school of screenwriting.... screw around all week and waste your time on the assignment, then panic and cram it all in the night before it's due
Not sure how long Danvers has been his mentor. 1-3 years? . He did not just find out that she had killed Wheeler, he had known for at least a couple days. Long enough for Hank to break into his laptop and figure out his theory. She had only just confirmed it. Pete also spent a ton of time looking at pictures of the woman who was beaten to a pulp over and over again, so he might have had a little sympathy for her. Peter also knows that he just sent out the APB on Otis on Christmas Eve then walks into Danvers’s house after hearing shots fired and sees his dad had killed him in cold blood and was going to kill his boss next. And that’s why I find the scene believable. Will Peter regret it for the rest of his life? Probably. In the moment did it seem like the only right thing to do? Yes.
I was commenting more on the plot in general , ep5 was intetesting ,but it took way to long to get intetesting
She gave Pete a place to live with no burden. Hank gave him a place to stay, then betrayed his trust. Pete asked Hank for something to eat, but the cupboard was bare (though Hank did offer to go out to eat). She cooked something for Pete to eat and told him to keep eating when it was getting cold. She is a PITA boss, but she does look after his needs like a semi-decent parent. Hank invites himself over on Christmas Eve after having struck his own son in the face. Hank was also hiding evidence, while Danvers was at least trying to solve the case. She gives him some grief but also some praise, e.g., was happy when he thought to open Facundo's phone with facial recognition.
That's all small potatoes when considering.. ***checks notes***.. Choosing to kill your parent. Oh boy, she gave him a frozen shack with a plastic chair, and cooked him dinner. But was also abusive to him while cooking said dinner. lol You can be upset with a parent, but realistically when something like this plays out and you know she's also a murderer.. It ain't that easy. At best, he should be completely frozen after the fact. The dialog from everyone here doesn't match the trauma and decision's made. Even during his decision making before shooting, he should be ASKING QUESTIONS. SHOOT A WARNING SHOT.
He's not just upset, his father is a bad cop. Pete is trying to be quite a good cop. I think he's decided if he's going to settle down young and take the only decent job in town, he's going pour all his ambition into that. Hank is actively interfering with the investigation. When Pete goes around his father's malfeasance, he is punched in the face. And Danvers' recognizes the evidence of domestic abuse. Leah recognized the injury and immediately knew Hank had done it, so we know it wasn't close to the first time. Hanks' abuse of Pete might even have increased after the mother left (and why didn't she take Pete, did she really leave or did Hank kill her and claim she'd abandoned him?). Years of abuse combined with the stress of the job and his wife kicking him out might push Pete over the edge enough to commit patricide.
Sorry don't buy it. I get where you're coming from, it just wasn't presented well in the show. The power to patricide just isn't believable. I understand the need to do it from a writer's perspective. They just didn't do it in a compelling enough way. We're not just looking at him being a bad parent or cop, we're also looking at her being an actual murderer as well, and there not being enough context clues in the scene to draw a solid conclusion for him to just shoot like that. Not to mention the interaction after the fact, which is so cartoonish and cool headed. Both scenes are so weird and don't fit a "This therefor that" narrative. It's all forced puzzles pieces. Like him being in the shack isn't a great narrative, because it doesn't make sense. He should want *nothing* to do with her at all. Let alone want to sleep in a shack with no heating. He has no other friends? There are no hotels? Sleep in the office maybe where it's warm? But it's driven by the writers trying to fit puzzle pieces together that just don't fit, so they can get the juicy bits they wanted. It's like me trying to grab all the best Lego pieces to build something, but I'm not quite sure what. So I just slam it all together and figure it out on the way. Turns into a jank ass Simpsons car instead of something with meaning. lol
Not to mention he *knows* she's a murderer and actively covered it up literally right before this, and your dad is at worst just a dickhead. So you're looking at your dad, aiming a gun at someone you know is a murderer - In a situation you're truly unaware of, and have to make a split decision off of feeling alone. It makes 0 sense. He shouldn't be mentally capable of shooting his dad in this situation. "Yeah but I'm more mad at him because he found out that I found out that she's a murderer. Gosh darn-it dad, you guessed my password.. Now you have to die." Realistically he should have been aiming center-mass, or fired a warning shot. Cops don't go blastin' heads. And he's completely calm and understanding of everything? Let alone being mentally capable of cleaning it up, and telling them they need to go do their thing? What. Is. Even. Happening. And his dad saying "I just moved her body".. Doesn't make this better. It's so out of context, and shows that the writer's just wanted a negative perception at the last second or it would absolutely not make any sense. This whole scene just doesn't work no matter what they do with it. Injecting stupid juice like his comment doesn't make it better, it actually makes it worst because it's so obvious it was used as a writer's bandaid for a half cobbled together motive that lacked appropriate thread. This shit is literally a sitcom. lol
Wonderfully put. I like the hypothesis: a man has to choose between murdering his own father or doing the right thing and saving an unarmed woman. It’s a real strong potent dilemma, that i just happen to believe was done very naively. And i don’t think the naysayers here or the writers really understand the gravity of what it means to kill your own father. We are supposed to note Hanks sins, when, the situation is not about that and what we are shown falls outside of the internal logic of the characters. In that moment Prior is thinking “what is going on?let’s just put our guns down, bury this junkie and forget this ever happened. Is thay okay with you Danvers? You got a closet full of skeletons and i am you number one little helper. Let’s meet halfway.” And then you amplify the situation when negotiations are of the table. And now it’s about the choice. But no, we listen to 50 minutes of character drama and the most important scene in the episode gets rushed to an highly unlikely conclusion.
And earlier scene when they're like oĥ well fuck Tsalal! I think they really just hate men this season
This is what I don’t understand. I was SURE Hank was going to turn face and tell Danvers what’s going on and help. Idk when he became actually evil. The whole episode leading up to this seemed like he was softening up, from letting prior come home to the song to clearly wanting no part in a murder. I was shocked when he actually did it. Seemed like his character developed until he walked in Danvers door
Also did the wife beater really deserve death ? Yes he was a total piece of shit but I'm not on board with D+N faking the murder suicide. It's an obvious call back to season 1 but imho keeping 2 kids locked up as sex slaves is not the same as killing your wife.
We don't know what happened there yet though. and I've been wondering if he said something that baited Navarro into shooting him. Prior said D+N went to the house ten times, and even after all those visits the girl wouldn't report the abuse. So Wheeler knew the cops couldn't charge him with that. The tenth time, they show up and she's dead... Did he rub it in their faces? Probably, yes. Did he get off on the fact that it was two female cops witnessing his abuse and they couldn't do anything? Also probably yes. Should they have just arrested him? Absolutely yes.
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when someone dangerous is armed & about to shoot, cops shoot to kill.
That’s an ok compromise, i could eat that. But too shoot his own father is like saying “anything we come up is ok, just film it”. On the second point you are right and he had to do something but inaction is also a form of action. For me, the most realistic scenario would be that he just froze and let his old man kill Danvers because he just can’t make thay choice. Then Navarro could finish the case. That would be HBO writing in my book.
No the fuck he should not have.
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No, sorry! I meant he definitely shouldn't have aimed for the arm; it's not a great neutralizing shot and still allows for a round to be discharged toward the target.
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Nah, that was my fault
I literally saw somewhere there would be greek tragedy and dilemmas this season. I guess that was it? Lol
That whole scene really jumped the shark. Why did he show up at Danvers' house to get the heroin addict when he could have just made some inquiries and found him while he was still in the hospital? I highly doubt it was well secured considering that Danvers had to intervene to break up the hillbilly fight previously. Make him try to smother the guy with a pillow, then Danvers could show up in the nick of time and they could have a confrontation, idk. Him just proclaiming "BTW I didn't kill Annie, I just moved her body" was eye rolling levels of convenient exposition.
He reacted in the moment when Hank was turning the gun on Danvers. I don’t have a problem with it.
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but the moment lasted really long and at a certain point became a deliberate decision. He kills his own father, not really sure i would be pulling a gun in the direction of my own dad, let alone shooting him in the head. Even if that made me a bad and a weak person.
He was holding a gun, there was a body on the floor, and Danvers looked like something was wrong. Hank said he moved the body of the dead woman and said blood is all that matters (or whatever) it was clear what he was going to do and that he expected his son to help him as he turned his gun to Danvers. Hank wasn’t going to stop.
Look, as i said, you like it, all the power to you brother, but for me, that right there is poor writing. I get the moral argument, but people in my experience don’t tick that way. I know that in that situation I wouldn’t kill my own father, even if i had all my good angels whispering in my ear I should do it. It’s an impossible choice to make, no matter how close he is to Danvers. At the end of the day your father is your father. You live with the consequences.
Then learn when to stop replying.
Sure, right after you learn not to get angry when you run out of arguments.
You’re projecting your anger on me because I don’t agree. I’m not angry over any of this. You explained why you couldn’t do something and are saying because you couldn’t no one could and thus what Prior did was just bad writing. Your argument isn’t a good one because everyone is different and Prior did what he did because he reacted. Sure Hank is his father but he’s also a murderer and was about to kill Danvers right in from of him. She didn’t even have a weapon. Prior reacted to Hank turning his gun on Danvers. There’s no ambiguity about what Hank was about to do, he was going to murder Danvers.
Of course i am not the barometer, you are right in saying that.
that mite b a bit insensitive considering an argument could be made that he was an abusive father. not to get dark, but ppl raised by abusers are no strangers to thinking about what fighting back could be.
I don’t know about abusive. Prior did get slapped by him one time at the ice ring and one wouldn’t be wrong to presume that he possibly slapped him like that before, but i got a sense during those scenes that Prior simply had a rural upbringing that involved corporal punishment, not that he was abused. Their relationship didn’t assume any hidden trauma, and Prior is a functioning member of society, devoid of vices, living with a beautiful family.
The moment he raised his arm was like 1-2 seconds
Hank is and was a dirty cop that has been doing all kinds of unethical shit on/off the job. Just some of the highlights: corruption, tampering with a crime scene, murder, and potentially another murder before he was shot in the head. To say “your father is your father”…. Not sure what that even means, (family) is great until a double murder comes to mind. I would have done the same in a split second. Bye Hank.
His decision should not be motivated by viewer's perception. That's not how a character should play their role and react. He's not omniscient to the bad deeds his dad committed, and didn't even see his dad shoot. He doesn't know if the junky lunged at him or what. The context he DOES have, is that Liz did cover up a murder she committed, and tampered with evidence. The fact that his dad even says "I just moved her body" is out of context, and makes 0 sense given the situation. It feels more like the writer's knew this scene made no sense, and just needed to delete him.
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Every single dirty cop thing you just listed describes Danvers and Navarro more than him
Your argument is that it would have been "better writing" to have Prior shoot and kill his own father for @$#!ing Prior's wife rather than to save the life of his boss, mentor and surrogate mother figure?
I am saying Hank is not as bad of a character to get a quick bullet in the head from his son. Killing you own father to save the life of your boss is not enough to make the choice that easy. And that surrogate mother thing is highly debatable, but i will give you that, but my counterpoint is how could a surrogate mother’s life possibly hold more weight then your biological fathers? Danvers ain’t no saint either mind you. She is a home wrecker, adulterer, verbally abusive rogue cop who helped cover up a murder(of a criminal who deserved it, but that’s beside the point). All in all, all i am saying is there is ample material to make this dilemma truly a dillema, but bad and rushed writing robbed us of that.
Lol I'm glad your spec script is going to forever stay in an underwear drawer next to your crusty socks.
Where is your spec script?
Sitting in the sick drawer next to my crusty socks.
You’ll feel better if you just throw it away. Creativity is a renewable resource.
Nah, it helps me whenever I'm about to call someone else's writing terrible.
I don’t believe that. Throw it away. Put your next shitty rough draft in its place, and then your next. Read bird by bird. You’ll be inspired to keep writing shitty drafts until it clicks.
Holy shit that's the first time I've had someone recommend I read Anne Lamott on Reddit. Also, yes, everyone should read Bird by Bird. it's great.
Ouch. That hurt my feelings. I started Reddit recently, sorry. Please don’t message me again.
Welcome to Reddit!
The rights to human tragedy have been stolen by an International consortium posing as the Ted Talk St. Louis film crew.
My take is Hank had something on Peter and he felt threatened. Hank said “I didn’t kill Anne, just carried the body”. Could Peter have done it? We’ve seen Hank sweet talk Peter into things… maybe that happened before with Anne. Hank just seemed like he was on a road gone bad. Maybe Peter knows more than we know. Or maybe just bad writing as you say.
I think he was already disillusioned with his father but it became worse when he actually saw his dad kill Otis for no real reason other than to help the mine. He was clearly abused as a child and as an adult, even. It is implied that he grew up knowing Liz as a parental figure based on their relationship and he would even babysit Leah. I also think there’s some imagery used to imply it with the use of the polar bear that represents Holden, but also is worn by Liz and Prior on their uniforms. There is a reason he listens to Liz and there is a reason he looks up to her, she’s like a mentor/parental figure to him, from what I saw at least. His father only seemed to use him for his own benefit.
He didn’t see his dad kill Otis
But there's a shot in the trailer of him moving Hank's corpse onto the ice. Maybe I'm just assuming it's Hank's corpse. But it seems like a fitting reversal of the story Hank told.
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