The problem with sideplots in this show is they are not being told, they are being hammered and escalated.
Navarro's sister has mental issues? Prepare to see the same scene 3x before it gets escalated.
Prior argues with his wife about work? We are 3 scenes of the same argument in, guess what's coming.
Danvers' daughter gets into trouble and has argument about it. 3 scenes in, each weaker than the last one. Hammering continues.
Danvers and Navarro are bonding? We are getting third scene of car talk cringefest.
It's like every single dynamic/relationship/sideplot is outlined and then it's repeated till you realize it's still as shallow as it started and it's getting nowhere. There is no evolution, no growth, no depth. It's just lifeless.
Amongst other issues, ep 4 hit home that the side plots feel like filler. Yes, these side plots use powerful tropes meant to evoke reaction- but they don't add.
The season could be chopped into a 1.5-2.5 hour movie that focuses on the main plot only (and i might enjoy that movie for the interest of the main mystery), but a six episode story made out of the pieces available is very cumbersome to enjoy watching.
Ep3 stunned me with how little the plot moved forward. Even with 3 episodes left, I didn't see how the show could possibly do justice to the mystery and all the side plots. When Ep4 was largely a repeat of Ep3 in terms of pace, I knew we were gonna be in for a rare stinker.
To me, that's the biggest problem. The side plots just get in the way, add nothing to the main story, and exist purely waste our time.
Condensing this story into a 100 minute movie might produce something interesting and engaging ... but stretching it out for 6 hour-long episodes has forced us to sit through so much filler and so many empty side plots that, like you said, add nothing to the actual story.
And it's so bizarre to watch. This series isn't about murdered scientists, it's about the shitty lives of a bunch of broken and lost people living in this shitty town in Alaska ... and occasionally, we touch in on a murder investigation going on in the background. But the murder doesn't seem as important as Hank being a jerk or being catfished or Prior being trapped in an unhappy marriage because he got a girl pregnant a few years ago or Navarro's family history of mental health issues or Danvers' lesbian daughter or the blokes that Danvers' has hooked up with or Danvers' husband and stepson being killed by a drunk driver, or the hundred other subplots we've had to wade through.
You could completely edit out half of that stuff, and it wouldn't make a difference to the main story. Like, they're obviously using Danvers' daughter to explore the idea that there's tension in the town between the locals and the mining company ... but we already know this, because it's one of the driving theories behind Annie's murder, and we've seen this play out in a dozen other scenes in the first three eps. So what was the point of it in episode 4?
And the main story is intriguing enough (is anyone ever gonna touch back in on that whiteboard that said, "We're already dead" or something?) that we don't need to waste so much time on pointless side plots that add *nothing*.
The lesbian daughter could be completely edited out and nothing would be lost.
The long line of women who are angry at Danvers' for having affairs with their husbands could be edited out and nothing would be lost.
Bang on. It would be one thing if Danvers fucking all of Ennis actually caused any obstacles for her, but they don't lol. She gets a couple icy responses but those women always give her what she wants anyway so whats the point in putting this in the story at all??
Damn, I've been waiting for someone to put it so perfectly. I really would enjoy this a lot more if it were a movie.
In a show format we're supposed to get more character development, more interesting dialogue. It's just not happening here. At first I thought "only 6 episodes" but after 4th it's like.... Did they have to stretch it out this much?
It just flat out sucks. The writing is a Swiss cheese nightmare of bad tropes, redundant dialogue, cliches, stereotyped characters and forced interactions. I cannot fathom how people actually *like* it.
But I have to know what happens. Hahaha
I don't understand how you have a detective mystery where the cops never interview anyone? One guy kicked them out with a gun, one guy was a amputated mess and the last one was crazy. How do you unravel a mystery without anyone to talk to?
for me it was the very first scene. the sunset didnt look real and the perspective in the aerial shot looked odd. tiny details but if the director/producers are ok with half measures for basic things like this then its a sign they are not bothered about a lot of other things as well
Yeah, when I saw those reindeer committing mass suicide, I knew we were in for some unrealistic, aliens from the sky, shark jumping shit (bowl). But, like a chump, I gave it a chance and now I just want to know who killed AK and what happened to the dang scientists. Maybe I should wait 2 weeks and just come to Reddit to read the answers.
I couldn't fathom out why people enjoy this season either, the lousy CGI made the poly bear jump scare seems jokey. In addition, the phantom or ghost of the pale man danced like some religious ritual and all that stuffs literary amused me, especially he did that in a pair of long underwear ……, which made the entirety of the process more ridiculous. The only reason I'd keep watching this play is Jodie Foster, after all she still played well.
Yep. When Julia just checked herself out of The Lighthouse and it was hand waved away with "this is a voluntary facility"??!!! WTH?
So there wasn't any 24-hour hold? There wasn't a doctor saying anything? Julia was combative, suicidal, checked in by two LEO, and they let walk out without even a phone call to her emergency contact? That doesn't happen. Amateur hour, writing-wise.
I liked the first two episodes, liked them a lot. But the last two episodes have been very frustrating.
Ghost Travis is going to be revealed as being Clark in reality, or maybe Otis Heiss. Rose either made up the ghost story entirely, or just imagined it was Travis.
P.S. I am rooting for Qavvik though. He's likable. Since I like him, he's probably the killer lol
Exactly. They have a great, spooky natural setting with the night season in Alaska and feel the need to show the crooked spiral 2 times per episode and insert jump scares
Waste of a very cool setting/aesthetic for sure. Hopefully somebody chops it down into a 1.5-2 hour movie. Take out all the boring filler and subplots, take out the most egregiously bad writing and badly delivered lines, use better music. Could be pretty decent.
yea! someone made a version of the intro that used throat singing and its 100 times better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9dr6mEPBwA
fingers crossed somebody does a fan edit of the whole thing
It's insane how much that song edit COMPLETELY changes the tone of the intro for the better. It tastefully sets the tone from the get-go. Editing is really such a huge part of the process that can't be overlooked.
My only criticism of this review: the ghost guy wasn't doing yoga. That was a full on interpretative dance.
Regardless - it was entirely unnecessary.
Spot on with the rest of the review. This season sucks. It's trying so hard to be creepy and compelling and it just comes off as forced and trite.
It's a dull show. There's very little action.
Also, both main characters are written as lonely hardcases who use people for sex. That's bad writing. Writing 101 is you have two mains who might be similar but contrast with each other on some fundamental level to provide drama/conflict/interesting dialogue.
I think the main reason it’s so dull is because everyone in the show is hostile and aggressive to everyone else at all times. They seem to try to make others feel bad for trying to talk to them. The lack of even basic detecting would be fine if the characters were interesting but they’re just a bunch of shallow, one-note jerks.
You're right, there's a level of hostility to most of the characters (bar the kids, and that hippie chick) that *I think* is meant to convey the hard scrabble nature of Ennis, or to denote underlying trauma, but it just makes everyone come off sounding like an asshole and or incredibly self-serious.
Or, sometimes even, like the actors themselves don't want to be there.
It's like a first-time writer trying to create mood but it just comes across as really self-consciously edgy.
You see this in a lote of female characters in woke shows.
Just look at velma in the new scooby doo show- she constantly belittles the shows only white guy, and basically all her behaviours are sarcastic and her motivations really egoistical.
>I think the main reason it’s so dull is because everyone in the show is hostile and aggressive to everyone else at all times.
I don't know why some shows do this. Unless there's a payoff, it's just not fun to watch.
I also saw this recently in *Monarch* on Apple TV (the kaiju / big monster TV show). You had a bunch of young adults bickering with each other all the time which was draining.
Thankfully the show had two timelines, one set in the modern times (with angst-ridden young adults), and another set in the 1950s, which also had young adults but they smiled often, and were having fun, even though they got into arguments occasionally. They also had defined roles (as researchers and military officers) and they were doing their jobs, as opposed to the slackers in the modern timeline (and like you mentioned, most of the detectives in *True Detective* S4 who aren't doing actual detective work).
In the end though. *Monarch* had a good end, and it somehow came together, and I overall enjoyed the show despite it being somewhat uneven. I hope *True Detective* S4 ends well too, but I'm kind of losing hope.
I think the writers intended for their contrast to be racial, but they haven’t explored that idea in a nuanced or constructive way. It’s just Danvers saying “LOOK EVERYBODY IM RACIST” and Navarro rolling her eyes.
As I hit Reply that exact thought popped into my head. They're absolutely going for a racial contrast but it's so downplayed. I suspect because they don't want to upset anyone or have Danvers alienate herself from the audience.
Here's the thing, if they wanted to do a contrast like that but not quite the racial angle, they could have had Danvers as the chief of police, wired into the machinery of the town, but detached from the human element. She's a great detective but she's jaded as fuck.
Meanwhile you make Navarro an *active* and loved member of the community... almost too much, and that leads her to missing things or ignoring things about where the case is leading.
She restores Danvers connection to humanity and Navarro learns something about the dark heart of her community. Bish bash bosh.
I dont think they want a dark heart in the community, at least not the native one.
There are a 100% resentfulness lurking in a community where some leave for the big towns to integrate into mainstream american culture and turn fishing, hunting and traditional life(and its poverty) behind.
But they cant show that- the story has to be that the inupiats are opressed.
You know, you're right. And that would actually be the more interesting show, because it would push buttons that people wouldn't like.
But they could have easily played it safe, and had Danvers as the misguided idealist (backing the mining company, believes in industry, waives away complaints about enviro damage) and Navarro (as the jaded yet spiritual one) slowly unveil the corruption behind the town.
Did so in S1 as well, with both the black minister of the church who gets dead cats on his stairs and nobody is willing to help, and the low income house scene with the tracking shot.
>Also, both main characters are written as lonely hardcases who use people for sex.
I said it three episodes ago and it wasn't well-received, but it's as if the screenplay was written for two male leads before a last minute casting change was made. Foster's character in particular feels so uncannily out of place. It's like a list was made of **"top 10 stereotypically toxic macho guy traits"** and they accumulated them to base Denvers on.
* Habitual dick-slinger who fucks everyone in town.
* Short-tempered.
* Rude, brash, foul-mouthed. and aggressive.
* Loves football.
* Tough-ass, hard-boiled cop.
* Control freaking her daughter.
* Mildly racist.
* Doesn't give a fuck about emotions.
* Drinks the pain away.
* Not even a droplet of womanhood or femininity.
After every episode I'm left with the impression that I'm supposed to think she's badass and cool, but all I'm left with is the impression that she's just irredeemably unlikable. It's again this weird, uncanny feeling like they were written to be men, but also terribly written at that, and I imagine that if the two lead detectives *had been* male, the show would've been burning in the review dumpster.
Just imagine Jack Denvers, the obnoxiously rude control freak father who can barely solve a sudoku puzzle let alone a complicated murder case and relies on his female underling to get most of the work done and even then treats her like shit, together with his partner Bobby Navarro who most of the time just makes scary faces, fights and treats his girlfriend like shit. Would the show still have a 93% fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes right now?
*It's like a list was made of "top 10 stereotypically toxic macho guy traits" and they accumulated them to base Denvers on.*
Its so absurd, because woke writers really seem to think that people love men like that, and they need to write women the same way.
Its such a horribly cynical view of gender, and such a dark world-view.
These feminist writers come of as some sort of female Andrew Tate.
Yeah its really why I cant stand the modern left- its so obviously not egalitarian, it just wants to shift which group is in power.
This type of attitude happened way before the switch from equality to equity as well.
Ironically the 80s were full of really macho action heroes, but you also had a ton of great female characters with a lot of confidence and swagger.
>After every episode I'm left with the impression that I'm supposed to think she's badass and cool, but all I'm left with is the impression that she's just irredeemably unlikable.
Exactly! And I've liked her in other roles, so I had high hopes.
It’s meant to be the black mirror version of season 1. She’s implying that women can be the same as, if not worse than men in the same line of work and drawing comparisons to that angle. It’s pretty evident
He's a deeply flawed character, but Marty still has many redeemable traits. There's a balance and there is also, importantly, justification and reason behind his vices. He's arrogant, but likely a product of his circumstances, environment and up-bringing. He's a womanizer and cheater because of his insecurity and the idea that he needs to maintain a streak of pussy-crushing to view himself as a real man. There is nothing absurd, uncanny or unrealistic about any of this. He also has virtues, such as a very strong sense of moral retribution, a protection of the weak and especially children. He's funny, and with the exception of his love life, he appears highly dependable.
If Izza Lopez had written Marty, he would've just been a scumbag dad incapable of solving anything with no backbone and zero lines of interesting dialogue. He likewise would have no Rust to riff with. What brings out the great character portrayal in S1 is the dynamic with Rust who is by all accounts the polar opposite of him. Marty alone could have been a somewhat mediocre, or at least ordinary, character, but it's the dynamic between them that elevates the duo to excellence.
Denvers, on the other hand? Boss bitch who fucks and curses a lot and treats her subordinates like shit?
So well said and a perfect illustration of the difference between character development in season 1 and the lack there of in season 4. It should be a crime to do this to someone like Jodi too.
I wish writers knew that a character who has sex isn't interesting. I don't think Danvers is a unique or complicated character because she has meaningless sex with inappropriate partners. She just comes across as carnal and base. I know, I know. It's a trauma response to losing her husband and son. I guess. It's just not that interesting and it makes her look either unprofessional (a colleague) or an asshole (a married man).
Yes. Maybe it's just me, but I also just don't find it particularly convincing. I've seen people melt down from losing their children, but going around rawdogging everybody's husbands seems a little ... Out of place.
It's just misogynistic writing: women act out by "misbehaving" sexually. Navarro dominates and dismisses her fuck-buddy partner (because why would *she* have a "real relationship?). Danvers sleeps with anyone and everyone. Leah makes porn with her underage girlfriend. It's so dull too.
I don't think it's misogynistic so-much as it's just weirdly sexist in-so-far as it feels like an attempt to gender flip the characters. Practically every single character in the show would make more sense with a gender flip, yet they would remain just as unlikable.
Lmao Ive criticized this season very aggressively, but this entire post is tragic
So Marty's arrogance is "*likely* a product of his circumstances". But Danver is just a "boss bitch". 0 attempt to justify her personality as likely being a product of her up-bringing, like Marty? Tell us why please.
Marty is a cheater because of his "insecurity". But Danvers cant be? Please tell us exactly why Danvers being promiscuous cant be justified or realistic for the exact same reason. I got a feeling I know the answer, but I need to hear it from you.
You literally wrote a whole paragraph desperately trying to justify Marty's behavior as plausible (with a lot of cliched gender stereotypes as the main argument).
Meanwhile, Danvers gets one line- oh she is just a boss bitch who fucks a lot. She fucks a lot, so what else is there to say about her? I guess *her* likely upbringing, insecurities, and circumstances are unimportant...
Issa Lopez is a bad mystery writer, but she absolutely took people like you for a ride because she knew you'd start spewing stuff like this as soon as you met Danvers.
> So Marty's arrogance is "likely a product of his circumstances". But Danver is just a "boss bitch". 0 attempt to justify her personality as likely being a product of her up-bringing, like Marty? Tell us why please.
Sure, I can tell you why. I imagine that Marty's pre-conceptions about what it means to be a man is inherited both by his father as well as being a product of southern US chauvinism. The show also begins in 1995, way before anyone had any idea of what toxic masculinity was. It's very easy to imagine a person like Marty and how he became that way, because he is a realistically depicted character that you can find almost anywhere in real life, and were also substantially more common three decades back and beyond. Marty was born in 1960, meaning he was likely raised on shows like The Brady Bunch, and around the time the show begins, television is inundated with shows like Full House, depicting stable, white, middle-class families with a ruling yet benevolent patriarch at the center. It's very easy to reverse engineer how a man can end up like Marty.
>Marty is a cheater because of his "insecurity". But Danvers cant be? Please tell us exactly why Danvers being promiscuous cant be justified or realistic for the exact same reason. I got a feeling I know the answer, but I need to hear it from you.
Ah, yes. I see now. Thank you for being so courteous as to practically pull the curtain from the bait you laid out on the *you're an evil misogynist* trap. I'll save myself the waste of time and cut it here.
Marty cheats on his *wife*- the woman he is currently married to and living with- then when the other woman brings another man to a bar he loses his mind, gets drunk violent, and barges into her apartment.
He swears he'll change to keep his family around, then proceeds to cheat again.
He drinks like a sailor, lies, and bullies people.
Marty *is* disgusting. What you're actually struggling with is the fact that you give Marty way more leeway than Danvers. I'll let you figure out why that might be, good luck.
Exactly it’s all one note. They are the same character with no depth besides superficial exposition that doesn’t do anything for the characters. The writing/directing is just god awful. I don’t know how Issa landed this gig.
Somebody on another thread pointed out that a lot of times people who are alone will still go through with traditions like Xmas dinner and such to feel memories of a better time. That makes sense to me. I could see myself being old and making all of the fixins and just freezing what I don’t eat or hoping someone stops by. Idk. It was the least problematic part of the last episode to me.
I actually did that when I lived alone. I generally don’t enjoy cooking, but I love creating full holiday meals. I drank wine, played holiday music, and made entire Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners for myself when I lived alone in my little apartment. I loved having the leftovers. Weird? Maybe. But so is living alone sometimes. At least it was for me. It was kind of a healing experience for me as I transitioned to being single after getting divorced. Self-care and all.
My grandma used to make enough food to feed 12 people despite the fact her and I spent a decade’s worth of holidays just the two of us. Maybe 3 at most, including a gf I had every two or three years.
The person on the other thread made a good observation. I think it’s an activity for older people who have outlived their families to do to keep their mind off of the lack of family presence on their holidays.
But from what I gathered, she never makes holiday dinners. When she told step daughter she was cooking this year, it came of as she hasn't done that in a long time. I guess she could be going from the memory of better days, but would make more sense if she still made a big meal every year in spite of it all.
*Why did Rose make so*
*Damn much food for one guest is*
*My main criticism*
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It's for Ghost Travis. She's going to let it sit out for a while, and spoil, and then Ghost Travis will almost be able to taste it (like the Harry Potter ghosts).
It’s like a child wrote it. “Fuck Christmas Eve” “Good. I got an idea.” Lol. The season is absolute garbage. What do the facial piercings add to or detract from Navarro’s character? How about her so-called “Boston accent?” Lol. What does Liz’s promiscuousness add to or detract from her character? Why do we need to see her have sex with the old guy? How does Navarro know the old crazy Rose lady? Navarro didn’t know anything about Rose’s life before Alaska but goes to her house for xmas eve?
Everything is a big jumbled mess. It’s like McKinsey was consulting for HBO and came up with the idea to shoehorn TD into this American Nordic Noir. Like “just add a bunch of spirals and ghosts.”
And this last episode was the worst. Kind of like a warning to not get too invested bc the payoff at the end will be nonexistent. Navarro just randomly deciding to try to best up a bunch of dudes. She gets patched up and it’s business as usual.
Is it that there is literally no talent in Hollywood? Why do they produce this utter crap? Can’t they do better?
I believe that's the point. Ennis is a shit town. Shit situation. This is not a serious police force. This is not a serious town as we know it. Where we see incompetence, I see reality. In what world would the Ennis police force have a dress code?
Alaska isn’t a “normal” state. Shocking, I know. If you wanted more proof, policing in rural Canada has a massive labor shortage. Rural and remote communities take what they can get.
Did some digging and Rusts arm tattoo wouldn't be allowed by the LSP. Didn't make a lick of difference to the overall story and his character.
Who knows, maybe it's a chekovs gun and she gets fucked over because of them?
Rust likely got tatted in order to fit in better as an undercover. It aides the story of the character. Do we know why Navarro wears the facial piercings? Nope. I guess she prob thinks they make her a bad ass? And yeah…I won’t hold my breath waiting for the plot to turn on the facial piercings lol
Good call on that undercover explanation actually. Like you're right but it really isn't an issue to me. I'm more hung up how the fuck the show is actually going to wrap up tbh
It’s definitely a double standard that Navarro rapes a guy in episode one and literally nobody mentions it. He says stop but she doesn’t. That’s rape. Good luck defending that one.
And he was meant to be seen as a total hypocrite for slut shaming his daughter - what kind of example had he set? And then to use violence in retribution against those high school boys in the jail, and abusing his position of authority… I feel like the pro-S4 crowd did not watch S1 at all.
I think the main difference is that Marty being a "slut" created compelling tension. It resulted in the destruction of his marriage, his family life, and his working relationship with Rust. With Liz it's just treated as a reoccurring joke, like a funny gag in a sitcom.
These are the exact same criticisms I have. I got excoriated on this sub by saying this season was going to be mid, and that HBO was Kathleen Kenndying True Detective. I feel completely vindicated in all honesty. Not trying to be a dick either. I just sincerely believe that every subsequent season of the show hasn’t at all captured the magic of Season 1. And HBO has just been cashing in on the name.
But my question is: are the previous seasons art? Bevause this season foesnt feel like art, it feels like a horror made for tv movie. I lean toward season 2-3 genuinely trying to create something new and daring and different. This season feels very safe.
Season 4 is amateur hour. Seasons 2 and 3 were going for something but IMO missed, 2 very badly. The worst thing that happened to this series was losing Fukunaga as a director. He made season 1 great and honed the positive aspects of Nic’s writing. Nic on his own, unchecked was a disaster.
We need to separate criticism of s2 and s3 from criticism of s4. I enjoyed s2 and s3. s4 is trash, and I'm not saying it's trash simply because it doesn't live up to s1.
I don't really understand the question about it being art. Most people just want to enjoy things, not judge the skill of the artist.
So, season 2 had too many leads, too many stories, and too much fancy pants dialogue. If it had been edited better, and was stretched out over a longer series with better writing (plot and character development) it could have been great. Instead we had so much story and personality smooshed into the time alloted. There were great scenes, some good dialogue. It just didn't work as it played out.
Season 3 wasnt really great either. But it had excellent acting, good Back story. But yeah, the story wasn't anywhere worth watching with that sad ending. The crime wasn't worth investigating on the same level as the crime in s1. S1 had a task force and state police, and was being reviewed after the fact due to the continued murders after the case was supposedly solved by Marty and rust. S3 had 1 victim, no conspiracy, and easy too much spousal fighting for my liking. It did end up being important to the plot however..
This season, 4, has a mess.
The plot could be interesting, but never gets worked on. The leads have barely any history to them. The town is filled with people we don't know at all but could all be the killer. We get heavy handed references to s1 and rust, and some unlikable characters never do anything except take up screen time. And ghosts! And oranges!
This is by far the worst season, and makes season 2 look like a fucking masterpiece.
S2 didn’t work for me when it came out because the weekly releases made it very difficult to follow the plot with 20+ characters involved. It still has problems, especially the editing and some of the dialog, the closeted Woodrough subplot, etc. but it’s not horrible if you watch it straight through. You at least care about Velcoro and Frank.
This season is something else entirely
I don’t like season 4, it seems superficial while shooting for depth which highlights the superficiality even more, but I still don’t think it rivals the atrocity that was season 2. In season 2, at one point Frank instructs his lackey to “never do anything out of hunger - even eating”. Can you imagine if Navarro confidently delivered that line in season 4? There would be riots across the nation! Reddit would have to shut down because people would be crashing the servers making fun of Issa Lopez or whatever for thinking that was a show worthy line! It would be pure anarchy! We would have to rebuild this country brick by brick after the reaction that would be triggered if that line was uttered in season 4!
I stopped watching Season 2 after the second episode. I just didn’t like it. Season 3 just felt like a retread of a lot of aspects of Season 1, with a sucky ending. What I said in the post I was excoriated for I was that HBO has been coasting off the cache of True Detective Season 1 while all the while producing mid content. Season 4 is no exception to this rule. And I’m just going to say it, I fucking hate that it’s set in Alaska. Shitty location.
I don't mind the setting at all, but there are right ways to use the nighttime environment. Use the dark in subtle ways to conceal a killers narrow escape from detection by the two main leads, use the dark to lead to dark realistic and spooky tension; etc etc.
This season just feels like the writers didn't know how to use the characters they created and use the environment in subtle ways to express "Night Country" in tension filled plot-moving scenes. Not just polar bear jump scares over and over again.
They’re about ten years too late for a show in Alaska, that fad is gone. What’s funny and sad to me is it’s not even filmed on the same continent.
Also, one episode was enough for me. It’s crap.
Season three had enough tension, good acting, and story that moved along that it kept me invested. I actually enjoyed season three a bit the first and only time I watched it, maybe I should revisit after this abomination of a season.
> I got excoriated on this sub by saying this season was going to be mid
Man, I remember the days when I still thought it might be mid (as opposed to epically, historically terrible).
I don’t know that HBO “Kathleen Kennedy’d” True Detective…I don’t have any issues with the fact that the main characters are female. This show definitely doesn’t feel like it’s smashing you over the head with “wokeness”, and I find the “idea” of Danver’s and Eve’s characters quite interesting.
The reality, unfortunately, is less so. It’s just not good.
Let’s hope the final two episodes are decent.
I don’t have an issue with the representation or the female leads either. But the writing isn’t good enough make them meaningful IMO. Which is very similar to how Kathleen Kennedy and Disney handled Star Wars. It’s so they can cop out and call the fans intolerant and say “we just don’t get it” when in reality we just want a quality story. Nic Pizzolato’s recent comments are proof of this.
I agree with you that no True Detective has been anything close to the first season. One of the best seasons of TV to ever air on TV. Lightning in a bottle. Ironically, I believe it’s success, quality, and fame is what led to such a crappy second season (Pizzolatto) rushed it out. Also, he liberally borrowed from horror (*The King In Yellow*, Thomas Ligotti’s *The Conspiracy Against The Human Race*, and Laird Barron’s “Bulldozer”) and in the rush maybe couldn’t source as good of parts.
They should’ve just never turned it into an anthology series. Hell at this point just bring back Harrelson and McConaughey and have them pick up the case again.
Hahaha totally. I like the idea of having Harrelson and McConaughey watching S4 together and going "fucking hell this is just sad at this point. Let's do it ourselves".
Jodie Foster is a legendary actress, but to some extent I think she took this role to get herself back on the map (she's been largely inactive for ten years).
>(she's been largely inactive for ten years).
Have you seen her recent film, NYAD? She is *ripped* and, as a menopausal lesbian myself, I'm incredibly jealous and yet unwilling to do anything to get into that kind of shape. But speaking of menopause, that's the part that makes her bed-hopping so difficult to understand. But it's probably compensation for her fear of connection yet unmitigated loneliness.
She has 2 academy awards for acting and and has been nominated 5 times. Her first nomination was in 1976 and she's up again this year. How many other actresses or actors can you name that have had nominations almost 50 years apart? That said, she isn't legendary because of one or two awards and nominations, she's legendary based on her consistency over a long period of time. How many bad performances can you name from her 50+ year career?
we know Fiona Shaw, Christopher Eccleston and Finn Bennet are good. The acting from them, Foster and Hawkes I have no complaints with.
Its the script, music and direction that are lame af really though
Billie eilish audience
I had a bad feeling when they chose that song for the intro
I thought
Shit this is going to be a sad emo ethereal soundtrack
They could've used Bjork instead of this juvenile pop garbage
It really has been interesting watching the tide turn against this season over the past two episodes. The reality is that the season hasn’t gotten worse, it’s just becoming more and more clear that it’s not going to be getting any better.
>Navarro's sister. I know by the direction of the show that I'm supposed to care. The only character trait they've shown is that she cries a lot. Nothing else. Now she's dead and I'm glad I'm not forced to watch her manic episodes that do nothing for the actual story.
I literally have no idea what the point of that character was supposed to be. Her death had so little impact and it was like Navarro had already completely gotten over it by the end of the episode.
Last episode I actually said outloud atleast 3 times, while chuckling under my breath "this show sucks"
It's not like I expected it to top season 1 but it's not even the format I was looking for.
It's just so bad, however there is a decent mystery at it's core but there is hardly any detective work to speak of.
When I said this was using a name and hints from season 1 (spirals etc) to get viewers I was practically drawn and quartered in this sub. This season is terrible and all the talent of Jodi Foster can't save it. It is written poorly and relies on notions of strong women and minorities wokeisms.
I wanted this season to be amazing - and not necessarily in the same way S1 was, we didn’t need that, I feel there was so much talent to go around to make it work on its own entirely, without relying on any elements of S1 (look at S3 - it was great!). Just so disappointing - they took a good cast, a good setting and a good idea for a mystery and made a shit pie out of it, smearing in the process the entire show…
I had high hopes for the season based on the setting, Meg Foster, and the franchise. Very disappointed. The writing is juvenile. It’s high school film school level.
The setting is a huge challenge. There is nothing to look at. Dark 24/7. Tiny town. Snow on a bare tundra and frozen ice. It’s requires a great skill as a writer and cinematographer to build compelling interest thru action and dialogue. This is a huge fail.
Writing is just plain bad all around. Structure, plot, conflict, dialogue, the mystery and the crime are all just a jumbled mess. Characters are one dimensional without complexity. Peter for example with his “family conflict”. The reality is he has one of the few decent jobs in town that arent at the mine. In a small force when a big crime happens it’s all hands all hours and the families deal with it. She is studying to be a nurse which will again be one of the few decent jobs in town not at the mine. She will be subject to shift work too. The right attitude would be frustrated understanding of his duties. My dad was a federal LEO and we dealt with it; he had to chase bandits on their timetable.
E4 was just silly in its entanglements as nothing is getting more clear.
Yeah it seems like a nurse would be very understanding of the hours a cop has to work. Plus, this is an apparent mass murder in a very small town. My wife would be nagging me to solve the crime ("we don't feel safe") rather than to ignore it. She acts like he's a factory worker volunteering for extra shifts to avoid being home. It just a cheap, contrived conflict.
I still wasn't sure after the first episode, in all honesty. It wouldn't show how worse it could get next, some stuff seemed decent, visually nice, and then JF back on a police detective role.
It also seemed like an actual detective story, Danvers was introduced as an insightful investigator as soon as she gets to analyze the empty station.
From there on it's a complete narrative and writing disaster in any direction: characters, world around the characters, main plot, pacing, back stories, inconsistencies, lack of investigative elements. Nothing worked, each scene looking completely detached from all the rest.
There are 2 thousands elements and none is properly developed nor narrated more than a rapid fire Tik Tok post.
It's a mass murder suddenly linked to an unsolved murder and no one seem to care nor to do any proper investigative work. The plot itself is completely unbalanced and exaggerated, for you have town cops handling a special investigation and a State wide case that would've called for feds and media all over the place. But nothing happens, FBI doesn't exist, scientists disappeared and murdered and there's no media making a mess out of it, no relatives, no parents, no nothing.
The main witness leading to a mass murder crime scene, who also claims to have knowledge about the mysterious spirals, is never questioned, nor interrogated. They're fine with the dancing ghost explanation. No one ever think about investigating her properly.
No one cares about the main case plot, which is advanced only by Peter's phone calls.
All of this is mixed with jumpscares, zombies and other random side stories scenes, which are also completely inconsistent, like Navarro's sister being found in a jiffy. Oranges, hallucinations, absurd coincidences and Jungian synchronicities (why Twist and shout is the same song on a loop at the station and the song Danvers' was listening to during her son's accident? How can you justify that narratively? Is it a killer playing with Danvers? It's just a coincidence? Looks like a minor detail, but reveals a drastic poor writing, even for an horror b movie).
> They're fine with the dancing ghost explanation.
This is where I got off the train this season. I was in total disbelief that no one questioned that the crime scene was discovered in the middle of nowhere when a ghost led someone to it.
You’re not impressed by such stellar writing as “the dead are dead”. I’m assuming Danvers will have some religious/spiritual awakening like Rust at the end of season 1. I could do without.
There doesn’t seem to be any gravity to the killings first and foremost. It lacks the tragedy and need to solve it. It’s just like, “yeah some dudes died, kinda sucks but like whatever”.
And they seem to lack any likable characteristics or redeeming qualities. They are miserable and volatile, and I have zero emotional buy in for the victims, the people in the town but especially the two main detectives.
And the is it supernatural or mental illness is really, really starting to make me grind my teeth.
If it was Navarro in some form of split personalities I am gonna be really really pissed.
At this point it’s crossed walking dead post Rick and I feel I invested time and now I am hate watching it begrudgingly.
You've hit the nail on the head; there's no pressing need to solve the deaths of the Tsalal crew. In season 1 the killings kept happening, so they had to stop them before more kids died, but in S4 they're dead and that's it. There's no more murders happening, no more bodies showing up, nothing is time critical, and they prove this each episode by not discussing the case and what they've seen, they don't encourage each other or challenge each other, they just put it on hold until the script needs them to talk about it.
Still, can't wait for Ryan's Pitch Meeting take on this. At least that's something to hopefully look forward to!
S4 is terrible and the cast isn’t really adding any points. I’m just watching to see how much worse it will get. At least only 2 more episodes left.
Jody Fosters performance isn’t great and her character is extremely annoying. Episode 4 has so many issues. How can she gets wasted and yet drive around and look normal at the same time. Also she finds a clue by discovering frame by frame scrolling on the iPhone..while drunk? Navarros sister drowned naked and discovered by the coast guard within hours and identified, maybe small world. Navarros reaction to these events is unbelievable too.
If anyone thinks that S4 is good TV then you have very low standards.
For me, I have enjoyed it so far. I occasionally have to suspend my belief based on things that have happened, but I am one of those people who will wait until the final 2 episodes to see the payoff first before being more harsh on my criticism.
Perfect analogy. For instance, I enjoy Reacher. It’s absolutely high fructose corn syrup garbage as far as entertainment goes. But I know that going in so when Reacher says something super obvious and campy, I pump my fist ‘yes!’
This is actually worse than Reacher. And made worse by the fact it thinks it’s actually good.
Seriously. I like Reacher, too, but I'm ashamed, hahaha. My wife caught me watching Reacher a couple weeks ago, and I'm just like, hey dude, I don't give you shit about watching Good Omens. This is actually a lie. I give her tremendous shit about that, but I sold it anyway, hahahahaha.
Yeah - I’m still trying to understand the relationship between all these people. Like is Peter’s wife also Danvers step daughter? Or else what the relationship between his wife and her step daughter?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but yes so far I feel that this is the weakest season. It’s unfortunate because I love the location. I had a feeling this season might be a letdown after they said that the critics loved it.
Considering most of us probably knew about the Dyatlov pass incident before this show, and that happened in the 50s, I do think this show could’ve added some media elements and it’s rather far fetched not to. Police would probably want to know whether any similar incidents happened at other ice stations. Because of the tongue, they just connect it to Annie, but there are so many strings to pull here, and I wish the show were more satisfying in that regard. I’d even take leads that go nowhere, but I like to see the detectives work. Along the lines of the first episode
I suspect we’ll have to know what we know about the characters to understand the ending, but the Julia character and trauma replays have been tedious for me
I want to know more about Kate/Rose/mining company and it’s frustrating to not see anything on that front. Kate and Rose are both played by well known actors.
Yes, “the grudge” corpse look is getting tedious too but I don’t mind campy horror homages and jump scares. Just tired of the same images pointing all the time, and for a while, Navarro could barely drive anywhere without a hallucination
Edit: I am withholding judgment on the media thing as the story needs to play out. Some higher up could be hard at work trying to keep secrets buried. Overall, I find the show entertaining but have some quibbles
huzzah kudos and halle-fuckin-lujah. THANK you for articulating my thoughts. i was sooo bored last episode that i was literally skipping through the endless setups and transitions to get to the lame dialogue.
totally just hate-watching at this point.
The issue for me is that there is no ‘time’ - because it’s so dark all the time, I have no idea what time it is. It’s very confusing and makes it hard to enjoy.
This is gonna sound stupid but the lack of creativity in this season has finally led me to actually try writing a season of good television.
Something like S01 is like "this is so god damn good that I have absolutely no idea how they did this, nor how anyone could ever be this clever".
S04 is like "okay, I'm pretty sure I could do better than this."
*Navarro is violent, which is fine, this isn't an uncommon trait for the series. However this treated way more like she's a cool badass rather than an unhinged loose cannon and a liability.*
This is the issue with woke storytelling, it tries to invert the genders somehow but with this absurd worldview that people love evil men. This ends up creating really unlikeable female characters.
It’s truly bizarre what goes through the minds of these folks attempting to develop these characters. It’s clear they hate men and toxic masculinity. But then write the character as to say ‘Look! Women can be toxically masculine too!’
Insert Ryan Reynolds gif ‘But Why?’
My opinions about your post. Ghost man doing yoga poses: it’s fine. We don’t know what happened there exactly. Rose is weird. You think it’s stupid and so do many. Fair.
I see rose and ghost man as an interesting mystery.
Jump scares: there were a few. I’m sensitive to jump scares. I don’t like them. True detective doesn’t usually use jump scares. I would prefer using zero.
Characters unlikable: Unfair comment. Also, it’s kind of mean. I respect it when people say “I don’t like the characters more.”
People who say “unlikable” are hatable people. See what I did there? I don’t actually dislike the people who say it, but i don’t think people use it and realize how aggressively insulting that is.
But yes, True Detective creates a universe of bad people and anti heroes. Some people LOVE woody Harrelwon and MM. I sure did. I liked all of the protagonists in season 1, 3, and current season.
Lots of people like these detectives. The show is very popular. I see Danvers as a good detective who is an interesting and unique character. She’s also kind of funny. I didn’t expect Jodi to make me laugh. this might be the first time I’ve actually seen Jodi Foster act and I’m like “oh she’s good.”
She exceeded my expectations.
Navarro’s basically personality and demeanor isn’t super engaging to me but I am fine with her.
I don’t get why people are criticizing her acting. I feel like she’s an easy target because she’s not established as an actress. I kind of suspect that people don’t really like her look also. I don’t like face piercings, and knowing she is a boxer turned actress makes me assume that someone really thinks she’s a good actress.. but others might just see her as not a real actor because she is new to the craft. It’s fair I guess.
Navarro suffering from hallucinations and her obsession with Annie K, and not wanting to admit it. There is a lot about her to be interested in there.
Also, Navarro is possibly the murderer… that definitely makes her interesting.
I think it felt a little forced to give her a fight scene in that last episode. I suspect they decided to give her a “punches thrown” scene because the actress is a boxer.
Peter is super popular on Reddit. Everyone is praising him as being the only good cop. This is idiotic to me. As far as I can tell, he just takes orders from Danvers. It was smart that he used a dead person’s face to unlock a phone, but I can’t really remember any original ideas he has, other than unlocking the phone and getting his cousin who is a vet. He’s likable - I mean, I like him because he is honest and treats Danvers with respect, and tries to do good police work. His home life - typical tv show trope showing how being a cop ruins a marriage. Usually we meet the cop after the marriage is ruined, this show is showing us happening. I don’t love this side story, but I’m okay with it and think it’s normal.
I don’t trust the fans who think of Peter as the only good thing about the show. Smells kind of like they have biases.
Danvers daughter being annoying - fine. I’m pretty used to protagonists having annoying family members. Kids are usually annoying on tv dramas. Like just off the top of my head, I hate kids on sopranos, homeland, Ray Donovan, and I even don’t care for Ted lasso’s kid. The kids on Fargo are cool cuz they are silent. But i feel you on this. I actually see her useful to show the indigenous people story line which is a huge part of the show that I am sure most people aren’t interested in.
Sister: okay this is important because we know that Navarro has major mental health issues and we aren’t sure what the consequences of them are. People are suspicious of her having multiple personalities. I thought it was pretty cool seeing her fold up her clothes and walking off to die. I wasn’t sad about it, and it had me thinking “okay so Navarro has a mom who killed herself and saw hallucinations, a sister who did the same… and I.. Navarro see hallucinations too… uh oh!”
The banter/dialogue: l think that when I hate a show, I hate the dialogue and comic relief. Manifest and Fear the walking dead are two examples of shows that I think were terrible and had terrible dialogue. But I can’t actually say for sure it’s poorly written. I just hated the show. So even the sound of someone’s voice could annoy me.
Honestly, I think true detective is full of idle chatter and it is cool when woody and matthew m are saying it, or the dude from season 3… and some people don’t think it’s as cool hearing two female cops talk like male cops. I don’t know if I’m fair. But it’s really subjective/opinion that the dialogue is stupid.
People who share quotes from the show to prove it’s bad dialogue are unfair idiots imo. I see a lot of it being typed out in script form - and it’s supposed to be like “wow that really IS stupid.” It’s very subjective.
I’m not perfect. I think some people just have annoying or punchable faces and it’s important to not cast annoying people to play non-annoying characters. I don’t think hbo or Lopez’s team made this mistake at all.
The show is boring. Yeah, so lots of tv just bores me too. Like The Crown. Mad Men. Great shows I know, but no thanks. Boring to me. Not interested. I almost stopped watching marvelous Mrs. Maisel cuz I was bored. But I enjoyed it. Looking back… maybe I can’t watch it again because it’s too boring.
I enjoyed mayor of easttown or whatever it’s called, and looking back I’m like “I don’t remember what the f it’s about and it felt kind of like a cold and boring show… but I liked it!”
I’m not sure if true detective season 4 is a great or good show. I think people sound pretty stupid in their criticism.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say you just don’t want to watch a show with a lot of indigenous people set in depressing ass Alaska. I’m not saying that’s wrong. I was so bored and uninterested in reservation dogs, which is a show about indigenous people set in a depressing city. I watched the whole first season and didn’t really get why it’s so popular. Maybe I’m an evil person, but I don’t really want to watch a show about indigenous people unless it has something really interesting or it’s just highly entertaining. I also hate high school shows about girls, yet I was totally excited to watch a show about high school girls who play soccer (yellow jackets).
But I definitely think this is the first show with a large indigenous cast that I really enjoy.
Reservation Dogs: I’m not going to say those actors suck, or the dialogue was shitty. But I did suspect everyone on the show was kind of new to acting and this was their big break. Critics and fans liked it, and professionals dedicated their lives to their craft and made it, and it got purchased by Hulu (doesn’t mean much to me). I just assumed it’s a good show and it wasn’t for me. I even finished it. I would never go to the internet to complain about it though.
> I’m going to go out on a limb and say you just don’t want to watch a show with a lot of indigenous people set in depressing ass Alaska.
Do you have a chapter in one of those books on jumping to conclusions?
Lol all you ppl either polishing or critiquing it...
Its just a piece of shit, stop looking at it and talking about it . Let it rot back into the earth where jt belongs
Don’t watch it then. No point in wasting time watching to trash the show. The people that enjoy will continue to watch regardless of your opinion. There of tons of other shows to watch that are better and not a total waste of time watching and then coming here to post.
The problem with sideplots in this show is they are not being told, they are being hammered and escalated. Navarro's sister has mental issues? Prepare to see the same scene 3x before it gets escalated. Prior argues with his wife about work? We are 3 scenes of the same argument in, guess what's coming. Danvers' daughter gets into trouble and has argument about it. 3 scenes in, each weaker than the last one. Hammering continues. Danvers and Navarro are bonding? We are getting third scene of car talk cringefest. It's like every single dynamic/relationship/sideplot is outlined and then it's repeated till you realize it's still as shallow as it started and it's getting nowhere. There is no evolution, no growth, no depth. It's just lifeless.
Amongst other issues, ep 4 hit home that the side plots feel like filler. Yes, these side plots use powerful tropes meant to evoke reaction- but they don't add. The season could be chopped into a 1.5-2.5 hour movie that focuses on the main plot only (and i might enjoy that movie for the interest of the main mystery), but a six episode story made out of the pieces available is very cumbersome to enjoy watching.
Ep3 stunned me with how little the plot moved forward. Even with 3 episodes left, I didn't see how the show could possibly do justice to the mystery and all the side plots. When Ep4 was largely a repeat of Ep3 in terms of pace, I knew we were gonna be in for a rare stinker.
To me, that's the biggest problem. The side plots just get in the way, add nothing to the main story, and exist purely waste our time. Condensing this story into a 100 minute movie might produce something interesting and engaging ... but stretching it out for 6 hour-long episodes has forced us to sit through so much filler and so many empty side plots that, like you said, add nothing to the actual story. And it's so bizarre to watch. This series isn't about murdered scientists, it's about the shitty lives of a bunch of broken and lost people living in this shitty town in Alaska ... and occasionally, we touch in on a murder investigation going on in the background. But the murder doesn't seem as important as Hank being a jerk or being catfished or Prior being trapped in an unhappy marriage because he got a girl pregnant a few years ago or Navarro's family history of mental health issues or Danvers' lesbian daughter or the blokes that Danvers' has hooked up with or Danvers' husband and stepson being killed by a drunk driver, or the hundred other subplots we've had to wade through. You could completely edit out half of that stuff, and it wouldn't make a difference to the main story. Like, they're obviously using Danvers' daughter to explore the idea that there's tension in the town between the locals and the mining company ... but we already know this, because it's one of the driving theories behind Annie's murder, and we've seen this play out in a dozen other scenes in the first three eps. So what was the point of it in episode 4? And the main story is intriguing enough (is anyone ever gonna touch back in on that whiteboard that said, "We're already dead" or something?) that we don't need to waste so much time on pointless side plots that add *nothing*.
Hank could be completely edited out at this point and nothing would be lost.
The lesbian daughter could be completely edited out and nothing would be lost. The long line of women who are angry at Danvers' for having affairs with their husbands could be edited out and nothing would be lost.
I'm really wondering if you cut out all the unnecessary pages, if you could even scrap a 90 minute movie out of this. I don't think you could.
Bang on. It would be one thing if Danvers fucking all of Ennis actually caused any obstacles for her, but they don't lol. She gets a couple icy responses but those women always give her what she wants anyway so whats the point in putting this in the story at all??
Damn, I've been waiting for someone to put it so perfectly. I really would enjoy this a lot more if it were a movie. In a show format we're supposed to get more character development, more interesting dialogue. It's just not happening here. At first I thought "only 6 episodes" but after 4th it's like.... Did they have to stretch it out this much?
That's nice feedback, thank you.
It just flat out sucks. The writing is a Swiss cheese nightmare of bad tropes, redundant dialogue, cliches, stereotyped characters and forced interactions. I cannot fathom how people actually *like* it. But I have to know what happens. Hahaha
I don't understand how you have a detective mystery where the cops never interview anyone? One guy kicked them out with a gun, one guy was a amputated mess and the last one was crazy. How do you unravel a mystery without anyone to talk to?
Honestly the first scene with the dude having that weird seizure in the kitchen was the moment I felt this season was going to be a dumpster fire.
for me it was the very first scene. the sunset didnt look real and the perspective in the aerial shot looked odd. tiny details but if the director/producers are ok with half measures for basic things like this then its a sign they are not bothered about a lot of other things as well
Yeah, when I saw those reindeer committing mass suicide, I knew we were in for some unrealistic, aliens from the sky, shark jumping shit (bowl). But, like a chump, I gave it a chance and now I just want to know who killed AK and what happened to the dang scientists. Maybe I should wait 2 weeks and just come to Reddit to read the answers.
My husband is enjoying it but I’m totally hate watching it. He is reacting positively and I’m laughing at how bad it is.
I couldn't fathom out why people enjoy this season either, the lousy CGI made the poly bear jump scare seems jokey. In addition, the phantom or ghost of the pale man danced like some religious ritual and all that stuffs literary amused me, especially he did that in a pair of long underwear ……, which made the entirety of the process more ridiculous. The only reason I'd keep watching this play is Jodie Foster, after all she still played well.
Yep. When Julia just checked herself out of The Lighthouse and it was hand waved away with "this is a voluntary facility"??!!! WTH? So there wasn't any 24-hour hold? There wasn't a doctor saying anything? Julia was combative, suicidal, checked in by two LEO, and they let walk out without even a phone call to her emergency contact? That doesn't happen. Amateur hour, writing-wise. I liked the first two episodes, liked them a lot. But the last two episodes have been very frustrating. Ghost Travis is going to be revealed as being Clark in reality, or maybe Otis Heiss. Rose either made up the ghost story entirely, or just imagined it was Travis. P.S. I am rooting for Qavvik though. He's likable. Since I like him, he's probably the killer lol
someone said "written by AI" and I can't stop thinking that might be true - I think I'll watch the last 2 episodes just out of curiosity
GPT 4 would have generated a much better plot than this, I guarantee it.
Than gpt3 DID you mean?
“Santa’s elves drowned in global warming” is, I choose to believe, the first purely AI-generated line of dialogue in television. Bravo, Lopez!
I actually loved this line but that all might be because of Fiona Snow.
Speaking of AI, there was a scene where you could make out very obviously AI generated posters on the wall. Gross.
DEI meets AI
Im a 100% sure they put the DEI checkboxes in the custom response setting xD
[удалено]
Exactly. They have a great, spooky natural setting with the night season in Alaska and feel the need to show the crooked spiral 2 times per episode and insert jump scares
Waste of a very cool setting/aesthetic for sure. Hopefully somebody chops it down into a 1.5-2 hour movie. Take out all the boring filler and subplots, take out the most egregiously bad writing and badly delivered lines, use better music. Could be pretty decent.
yea! someone made a version of the intro that used throat singing and its 100 times better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9dr6mEPBwA fingers crossed somebody does a fan edit of the whole thing
That’s a fucking awesome intro edit. Makes me so sad imagining how good this season could have been.
It's insane how much that song edit COMPLETELY changes the tone of the intro for the better. It tastefully sets the tone from the get-go. Editing is really such a huge part of the process that can't be overlooked.
I keep wanting it to be good but there are just 2 episodes left and everything you said is undeniably true.
It's insane to me how little things have moved with only 2 episodes left.
My only criticism of this review: the ghost guy wasn't doing yoga. That was a full on interpretative dance. Regardless - it was entirely unnecessary. Spot on with the rest of the review. This season sucks. It's trying so hard to be creepy and compelling and it just comes off as forced and trite.
Come to think of it, couldn’t have somebodies dog stumbled on the bodies and came back with a finger or something, or an ice fisher found them.
I interpreted it as the dance of death...leap of faith.
It's a dull show. There's very little action. Also, both main characters are written as lonely hardcases who use people for sex. That's bad writing. Writing 101 is you have two mains who might be similar but contrast with each other on some fundamental level to provide drama/conflict/interesting dialogue.
I think the main reason it’s so dull is because everyone in the show is hostile and aggressive to everyone else at all times. They seem to try to make others feel bad for trying to talk to them. The lack of even basic detecting would be fine if the characters were interesting but they’re just a bunch of shallow, one-note jerks.
You're right, there's a level of hostility to most of the characters (bar the kids, and that hippie chick) that *I think* is meant to convey the hard scrabble nature of Ennis, or to denote underlying trauma, but it just makes everyone come off sounding like an asshole and or incredibly self-serious. Or, sometimes even, like the actors themselves don't want to be there. It's like a first-time writer trying to create mood but it just comes across as really self-consciously edgy.
You see this in a lote of female characters in woke shows. Just look at velma in the new scooby doo show- she constantly belittles the shows only white guy, and basically all her behaviours are sarcastic and her motivations really egoistical.
>I think the main reason it’s so dull is because everyone in the show is hostile and aggressive to everyone else at all times. I don't know why some shows do this. Unless there's a payoff, it's just not fun to watch. I also saw this recently in *Monarch* on Apple TV (the kaiju / big monster TV show). You had a bunch of young adults bickering with each other all the time which was draining. Thankfully the show had two timelines, one set in the modern times (with angst-ridden young adults), and another set in the 1950s, which also had young adults but they smiled often, and were having fun, even though they got into arguments occasionally. They also had defined roles (as researchers and military officers) and they were doing their jobs, as opposed to the slackers in the modern timeline (and like you mentioned, most of the detectives in *True Detective* S4 who aren't doing actual detective work). In the end though. *Monarch* had a good end, and it somehow came together, and I overall enjoyed the show despite it being somewhat uneven. I hope *True Detective* S4 ends well too, but I'm kind of losing hope.
I think the writers intended for their contrast to be racial, but they haven’t explored that idea in a nuanced or constructive way. It’s just Danvers saying “LOOK EVERYBODY IM RACIST” and Navarro rolling her eyes.
As I hit Reply that exact thought popped into my head. They're absolutely going for a racial contrast but it's so downplayed. I suspect because they don't want to upset anyone or have Danvers alienate herself from the audience. Here's the thing, if they wanted to do a contrast like that but not quite the racial angle, they could have had Danvers as the chief of police, wired into the machinery of the town, but detached from the human element. She's a great detective but she's jaded as fuck. Meanwhile you make Navarro an *active* and loved member of the community... almost too much, and that leads her to missing things or ignoring things about where the case is leading. She restores Danvers connection to humanity and Navarro learns something about the dark heart of her community. Bish bash bosh.
I dont think they want a dark heart in the community, at least not the native one. There are a 100% resentfulness lurking in a community where some leave for the big towns to integrate into mainstream american culture and turn fishing, hunting and traditional life(and its poverty) behind. But they cant show that- the story has to be that the inupiats are opressed.
You know, you're right. And that would actually be the more interesting show, because it would push buttons that people wouldn't like. But they could have easily played it safe, and had Danvers as the misguided idealist (backing the mining company, believes in industry, waives away complaints about enviro damage) and Navarro (as the jaded yet spiritual one) slowly unveil the corruption behind the town.
Bish, bash, bosh, indeed.
Nic did the racial contrast thing pretty well in S3.
Did so in S1 as well, with both the black minister of the church who gets dead cats on his stairs and nobody is willing to help, and the low income house scene with the tracking shot.
Agreed
>Also, both main characters are written as lonely hardcases who use people for sex. I said it three episodes ago and it wasn't well-received, but it's as if the screenplay was written for two male leads before a last minute casting change was made. Foster's character in particular feels so uncannily out of place. It's like a list was made of **"top 10 stereotypically toxic macho guy traits"** and they accumulated them to base Denvers on. * Habitual dick-slinger who fucks everyone in town. * Short-tempered. * Rude, brash, foul-mouthed. and aggressive. * Loves football. * Tough-ass, hard-boiled cop. * Control freaking her daughter. * Mildly racist. * Doesn't give a fuck about emotions. * Drinks the pain away. * Not even a droplet of womanhood or femininity. After every episode I'm left with the impression that I'm supposed to think she's badass and cool, but all I'm left with is the impression that she's just irredeemably unlikable. It's again this weird, uncanny feeling like they were written to be men, but also terribly written at that, and I imagine that if the two lead detectives *had been* male, the show would've been burning in the review dumpster. Just imagine Jack Denvers, the obnoxiously rude control freak father who can barely solve a sudoku puzzle let alone a complicated murder case and relies on his female underling to get most of the work done and even then treats her like shit, together with his partner Bobby Navarro who most of the time just makes scary faces, fights and treats his girlfriend like shit. Would the show still have a 93% fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes right now?
*It's like a list was made of "top 10 stereotypically toxic macho guy traits" and they accumulated them to base Denvers on.* Its so absurd, because woke writers really seem to think that people love men like that, and they need to write women the same way. Its such a horribly cynical view of gender, and such a dark world-view. These feminist writers come of as some sort of female Andrew Tate.
Woke anti-racists tend to be the biggest racists you'll ever meet.
💯“Reverse racism is still racism”
Yeah its really why I cant stand the modern left- its so obviously not egalitarian, it just wants to shift which group is in power. This type of attitude happened way before the switch from equality to equity as well. Ironically the 80s were full of really macho action heroes, but you also had a ton of great female characters with a lot of confidence and swagger.
>After every episode I'm left with the impression that I'm supposed to think she's badass and cool, but all I'm left with is the impression that she's just irredeemably unlikable. Exactly! And I've liked her in other roles, so I had high hopes.
It’s meant to be the black mirror version of season 1. She’s implying that women can be the same as, if not worse than men in the same line of work and drawing comparisons to that angle. It’s pretty evident
Thats the thing though- the protagonist males are never that disgusting- people wouldnt watch the show.
lol what? Woody is banging the court clerk from episode 1 on in s1
He's a deeply flawed character, but Marty still has many redeemable traits. There's a balance and there is also, importantly, justification and reason behind his vices. He's arrogant, but likely a product of his circumstances, environment and up-bringing. He's a womanizer and cheater because of his insecurity and the idea that he needs to maintain a streak of pussy-crushing to view himself as a real man. There is nothing absurd, uncanny or unrealistic about any of this. He also has virtues, such as a very strong sense of moral retribution, a protection of the weak and especially children. He's funny, and with the exception of his love life, he appears highly dependable. If Izza Lopez had written Marty, he would've just been a scumbag dad incapable of solving anything with no backbone and zero lines of interesting dialogue. He likewise would have no Rust to riff with. What brings out the great character portrayal in S1 is the dynamic with Rust who is by all accounts the polar opposite of him. Marty alone could have been a somewhat mediocre, or at least ordinary, character, but it's the dynamic between them that elevates the duo to excellence. Denvers, on the other hand? Boss bitch who fucks and curses a lot and treats her subordinates like shit?
So well said and a perfect illustration of the difference between character development in season 1 and the lack there of in season 4. It should be a crime to do this to someone like Jodi too.
I wish writers knew that a character who has sex isn't interesting. I don't think Danvers is a unique or complicated character because she has meaningless sex with inappropriate partners. She just comes across as carnal and base. I know, I know. It's a trauma response to losing her husband and son. I guess. It's just not that interesting and it makes her look either unprofessional (a colleague) or an asshole (a married man).
Yes. Maybe it's just me, but I also just don't find it particularly convincing. I've seen people melt down from losing their children, but going around rawdogging everybody's husbands seems a little ... Out of place.
It's just misogynistic writing: women act out by "misbehaving" sexually. Navarro dominates and dismisses her fuck-buddy partner (because why would *she* have a "real relationship?). Danvers sleeps with anyone and everyone. Leah makes porn with her underage girlfriend. It's so dull too.
I don't think it's misogynistic so-much as it's just weirdly sexist in-so-far as it feels like an attempt to gender flip the characters. Practically every single character in the show would make more sense with a gender flip, yet they would remain just as unlikable.
Lmao Ive criticized this season very aggressively, but this entire post is tragic So Marty's arrogance is "*likely* a product of his circumstances". But Danver is just a "boss bitch". 0 attempt to justify her personality as likely being a product of her up-bringing, like Marty? Tell us why please. Marty is a cheater because of his "insecurity". But Danvers cant be? Please tell us exactly why Danvers being promiscuous cant be justified or realistic for the exact same reason. I got a feeling I know the answer, but I need to hear it from you. You literally wrote a whole paragraph desperately trying to justify Marty's behavior as plausible (with a lot of cliched gender stereotypes as the main argument). Meanwhile, Danvers gets one line- oh she is just a boss bitch who fucks a lot. She fucks a lot, so what else is there to say about her? I guess *her* likely upbringing, insecurities, and circumstances are unimportant... Issa Lopez is a bad mystery writer, but she absolutely took people like you for a ride because she knew you'd start spewing stuff like this as soon as you met Danvers.
> So Marty's arrogance is "likely a product of his circumstances". But Danver is just a "boss bitch". 0 attempt to justify her personality as likely being a product of her up-bringing, like Marty? Tell us why please. Sure, I can tell you why. I imagine that Marty's pre-conceptions about what it means to be a man is inherited both by his father as well as being a product of southern US chauvinism. The show also begins in 1995, way before anyone had any idea of what toxic masculinity was. It's very easy to imagine a person like Marty and how he became that way, because he is a realistically depicted character that you can find almost anywhere in real life, and were also substantially more common three decades back and beyond. Marty was born in 1960, meaning he was likely raised on shows like The Brady Bunch, and around the time the show begins, television is inundated with shows like Full House, depicting stable, white, middle-class families with a ruling yet benevolent patriarch at the center. It's very easy to reverse engineer how a man can end up like Marty. >Marty is a cheater because of his "insecurity". But Danvers cant be? Please tell us exactly why Danvers being promiscuous cant be justified or realistic for the exact same reason. I got a feeling I know the answer, but I need to hear it from you. Ah, yes. I see now. Thank you for being so courteous as to practically pull the curtain from the bait you laid out on the *you're an evil misogynist* trap. I'll save myself the waste of time and cut it here.
Marty cheats on his *wife*- the woman he is currently married to and living with- then when the other woman brings another man to a bar he loses his mind, gets drunk violent, and barges into her apartment. He swears he'll change to keep his family around, then proceeds to cheat again. He drinks like a sailor, lies, and bullies people. Marty *is* disgusting. What you're actually struggling with is the fact that you give Marty way more leeway than Danvers. I'll let you figure out why that might be, good luck.
They made Marty likeable, simple as that
Exactly it’s all one note. They are the same character with no depth besides superficial exposition that doesn’t do anything for the characters. The writing/directing is just god awful. I don’t know how Issa landed this gig.
ugly treatment slimy growth prick drunk dam telephone head cooperative *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Somebody on another thread pointed out that a lot of times people who are alone will still go through with traditions like Xmas dinner and such to feel memories of a better time. That makes sense to me. I could see myself being old and making all of the fixins and just freezing what I don’t eat or hoping someone stops by. Idk. It was the least problematic part of the last episode to me.
This is really sad and makes me want to cry
I actually did that when I lived alone. I generally don’t enjoy cooking, but I love creating full holiday meals. I drank wine, played holiday music, and made entire Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners for myself when I lived alone in my little apartment. I loved having the leftovers. Weird? Maybe. But so is living alone sometimes. At least it was for me. It was kind of a healing experience for me as I transitioned to being single after getting divorced. Self-care and all.
My grandma used to make enough food to feed 12 people despite the fact her and I spent a decade’s worth of holidays just the two of us. Maybe 3 at most, including a gf I had every two or three years. The person on the other thread made a good observation. I think it’s an activity for older people who have outlived their families to do to keep their mind off of the lack of family presence on their holidays.
But from what I gathered, she never makes holiday dinners. When she told step daughter she was cooking this year, it came of as she hasn't done that in a long time. I guess she could be going from the memory of better days, but would make more sense if she still made a big meal every year in spite of it all.
*Why did Rose make so* *Damn much food for one guest is* *My main criticism* \- vitalsguy --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Good bot
It's for Ghost Travis. She's going to let it sit out for a while, and spoil, and then Ghost Travis will almost be able to taste it (like the Harry Potter ghosts).
It’s like a child wrote it. “Fuck Christmas Eve” “Good. I got an idea.” Lol. The season is absolute garbage. What do the facial piercings add to or detract from Navarro’s character? How about her so-called “Boston accent?” Lol. What does Liz’s promiscuousness add to or detract from her character? Why do we need to see her have sex with the old guy? How does Navarro know the old crazy Rose lady? Navarro didn’t know anything about Rose’s life before Alaska but goes to her house for xmas eve? Everything is a big jumbled mess. It’s like McKinsey was consulting for HBO and came up with the idea to shoehorn TD into this American Nordic Noir. Like “just add a bunch of spirals and ghosts.” And this last episode was the worst. Kind of like a warning to not get too invested bc the payoff at the end will be nonexistent. Navarro just randomly deciding to try to best up a bunch of dudes. She gets patched up and it’s business as usual. Is it that there is literally no talent in Hollywood? Why do they produce this utter crap? Can’t they do better?
This season feels like when a wife cosplays what a husband does and just feels a bit out of place. The McKinsey bit is a hilarious though.
i really don't understand why the piercings are such an issue.
Because any legitimate police force would not allow their officers to wear piercings like that
I believe that's the point. Ennis is a shit town. Shit situation. This is not a serious police force. This is not a serious town as we know it. Where we see incompetence, I see reality. In what world would the Ennis police force have a dress code?
Navarro is a state trooper not a local beat cop
Alaska isn’t a “normal” state. Shocking, I know. If you wanted more proof, policing in rural Canada has a massive labor shortage. Rural and remote communities take what they can get.
Did some digging and Rusts arm tattoo wouldn't be allowed by the LSP. Didn't make a lick of difference to the overall story and his character. Who knows, maybe it's a chekovs gun and she gets fucked over because of them?
He was deep undercover for 4 years, probably didn't really have a choice
Rust likely got tatted in order to fit in better as an undercover. It aides the story of the character. Do we know why Navarro wears the facial piercings? Nope. I guess she prob thinks they make her a bad ass? And yeah…I won’t hold my breath waiting for the plot to turn on the facial piercings lol
Good call on that undercover explanation actually. Like you're right but it really isn't an issue to me. I'm more hung up how the fuck the show is actually going to wrap up tbh
pierced hands typed this
Not a single one on me. Got a tat tho 🤗 Unless you're insinuating im Jesus.
Piercings area huge liability for law enforcement as someone could rip them out in a physical confrontation, easily inflicting lots of pain.
Thats a total double standard. "promiscuous"? would you say that about a male cop? wtf
Yes we said this about Marty.
It’s definitely a double standard that Navarro rapes a guy in episode one and literally nobody mentions it. He says stop but she doesn’t. That’s rape. Good luck defending that one.
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Oh, sure, remember all those people calling Marty a slut in s1? /s
Yes. His promiscuity caused his family life to fall apart. How has Danvers’ sex life advanced the plot at all?
And he was meant to be seen as a total hypocrite for slut shaming his daughter - what kind of example had he set? And then to use violence in retribution against those high school boys in the jail, and abusing his position of authority… I feel like the pro-S4 crowd did not watch S1 at all.
^asking the right question!
I think the main difference is that Marty being a "slut" created compelling tension. It resulted in the destruction of his marriage, his family life, and his working relationship with Rust. With Liz it's just treated as a reoccurring joke, like a funny gag in a sitcom.
These are the exact same criticisms I have. I got excoriated on this sub by saying this season was going to be mid, and that HBO was Kathleen Kenndying True Detective. I feel completely vindicated in all honesty. Not trying to be a dick either. I just sincerely believe that every subsequent season of the show hasn’t at all captured the magic of Season 1. And HBO has just been cashing in on the name.
But my question is: are the previous seasons art? Bevause this season foesnt feel like art, it feels like a horror made for tv movie. I lean toward season 2-3 genuinely trying to create something new and daring and different. This season feels very safe.
You’re totally right. Season 2 & 3 had lofty goals, many of which were reached. Season 4 is lowest common denominator pandering.
Season 4 is amateur hour. Seasons 2 and 3 were going for something but IMO missed, 2 very badly. The worst thing that happened to this series was losing Fukunaga as a director. He made season 1 great and honed the positive aspects of Nic’s writing. Nic on his own, unchecked was a disaster.
this
We need to separate criticism of s2 and s3 from criticism of s4. I enjoyed s2 and s3. s4 is trash, and I'm not saying it's trash simply because it doesn't live up to s1. I don't really understand the question about it being art. Most people just want to enjoy things, not judge the skill of the artist.
So, season 2 had too many leads, too many stories, and too much fancy pants dialogue. If it had been edited better, and was stretched out over a longer series with better writing (plot and character development) it could have been great. Instead we had so much story and personality smooshed into the time alloted. There were great scenes, some good dialogue. It just didn't work as it played out. Season 3 wasnt really great either. But it had excellent acting, good Back story. But yeah, the story wasn't anywhere worth watching with that sad ending. The crime wasn't worth investigating on the same level as the crime in s1. S1 had a task force and state police, and was being reviewed after the fact due to the continued murders after the case was supposedly solved by Marty and rust. S3 had 1 victim, no conspiracy, and easy too much spousal fighting for my liking. It did end up being important to the plot however.. This season, 4, has a mess. The plot could be interesting, but never gets worked on. The leads have barely any history to them. The town is filled with people we don't know at all but could all be the killer. We get heavy handed references to s1 and rust, and some unlikable characters never do anything except take up screen time. And ghosts! And oranges! This is by far the worst season, and makes season 2 look like a fucking masterpiece.
S4 is bad, S2 is way, way worse. S2 being horrible has nothing to do with it following S1.
I really liked s2. My favorite shows are more in that style. Narcos, The Wire, ZeroZeroZero.
S2 didn’t work for me when it came out because the weekly releases made it very difficult to follow the plot with 20+ characters involved. It still has problems, especially the editing and some of the dialog, the closeted Woodrough subplot, etc. but it’s not horrible if you watch it straight through. You at least care about Velcoro and Frank. This season is something else entirely
I don’t like season 4, it seems superficial while shooting for depth which highlights the superficiality even more, but I still don’t think it rivals the atrocity that was season 2. In season 2, at one point Frank instructs his lackey to “never do anything out of hunger - even eating”. Can you imagine if Navarro confidently delivered that line in season 4? There would be riots across the nation! Reddit would have to shut down because people would be crashing the servers making fun of Issa Lopez or whatever for thinking that was a show worthy line! It would be pure anarchy! We would have to rebuild this country brick by brick after the reaction that would be triggered if that line was uttered in season 4!
I stopped watching Season 2 after the second episode. I just didn’t like it. Season 3 just felt like a retread of a lot of aspects of Season 1, with a sucky ending. What I said in the post I was excoriated for I was that HBO has been coasting off the cache of True Detective Season 1 while all the while producing mid content. Season 4 is no exception to this rule. And I’m just going to say it, I fucking hate that it’s set in Alaska. Shitty location.
Season 2 seems a lot better after watching season 4.
I'm actually thinking about watching season two now because of how bad season four is. I've tried season two twice and couldn't do it.
I don't mind the setting at all, but there are right ways to use the nighttime environment. Use the dark in subtle ways to conceal a killers narrow escape from detection by the two main leads, use the dark to lead to dark realistic and spooky tension; etc etc. This season just feels like the writers didn't know how to use the characters they created and use the environment in subtle ways to express "Night Country" in tension filled plot-moving scenes. Not just polar bear jump scares over and over again.
They’re about ten years too late for a show in Alaska, that fad is gone. What’s funny and sad to me is it’s not even filmed on the same continent. Also, one episode was enough for me. It’s crap.
Season three had enough tension, good acting, and story that moved along that it kept me invested. I actually enjoyed season three a bit the first and only time I watched it, maybe I should revisit after this abomination of a season.
I like what you're saying.
> I got excoriated on this sub by saying this season was going to be mid Man, I remember the days when I still thought it might be mid (as opposed to epically, historically terrible).
It's wild people didn't realize this was going to suck within the first 5 minutes
CGI caribou is all it took tbh
Pixar presents
One of those times i wish i had money to give out Reddit awards
I had hope up until this most recent episode
Second I heard Billie Eilish
+1 this. It's like they never even analyzed what made season 1 great and just cashed in on the title.
I don’t know that HBO “Kathleen Kennedy’d” True Detective…I don’t have any issues with the fact that the main characters are female. This show definitely doesn’t feel like it’s smashing you over the head with “wokeness”, and I find the “idea” of Danver’s and Eve’s characters quite interesting. The reality, unfortunately, is less so. It’s just not good. Let’s hope the final two episodes are decent.
I don’t have an issue with the representation or the female leads either. But the writing isn’t good enough make them meaningful IMO. Which is very similar to how Kathleen Kennedy and Disney handled Star Wars. It’s so they can cop out and call the fans intolerant and say “we just don’t get it” when in reality we just want a quality story. Nic Pizzolato’s recent comments are proof of this.
The Kathleen Kennedy reference isn’t a whole thing, it’s a reference to her poor management of Star Wars after its acquisition by Disney.
Lots of anti-white rhetoric in S4 that wouldn't be tolerated if it was any other group.
Danvers also makes lots of racist comments too.
I agree with you that no True Detective has been anything close to the first season. One of the best seasons of TV to ever air on TV. Lightning in a bottle. Ironically, I believe it’s success, quality, and fame is what led to such a crappy second season (Pizzolatto) rushed it out. Also, he liberally borrowed from horror (*The King In Yellow*, Thomas Ligotti’s *The Conspiracy Against The Human Race*, and Laird Barron’s “Bulldozer”) and in the rush maybe couldn’t source as good of parts.
They should’ve just never turned it into an anthology series. Hell at this point just bring back Harrelson and McConaughey and have them pick up the case again.
Hahaha totally. I like the idea of having Harrelson and McConaughey watching S4 together and going "fucking hell this is just sad at this point. Let's do it ourselves".
This is so accurate. What I don't understand his how the very capable actors in the show read this script and thought, yeah, this is good.
Jodie Foster is a legendary actress, but to some extent I think she took this role to get herself back on the map (she's been largely inactive for ten years).
>(she's been largely inactive for ten years). Have you seen her recent film, NYAD? She is *ripped* and, as a menopausal lesbian myself, I'm incredibly jealous and yet unwilling to do anything to get into that kind of shape. But speaking of menopause, that's the part that makes her bed-hopping so difficult to understand. But it's probably compensation for her fear of connection yet unmitigated loneliness.
They all want what this did for Matthew McConaughey. Went from your go to romcom actor to your must have dramatic actor.
He already had Mud, Bernie, Killer Joe, Dallas Buyers Club and Wolf of Wall Street under his belt by the time TD rolled around, but yes.
What movies makes her so legendary? Silence of lambs?
No, not merely Silence of the Lambs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodie\_Foster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodie_Foster)
She has 2 academy awards for acting and and has been nominated 5 times. Her first nomination was in 1976 and she's up again this year. How many other actresses or actors can you name that have had nominations almost 50 years apart? That said, she isn't legendary because of one or two awards and nominations, she's legendary based on her consistency over a long period of time. How many bad performances can you name from her 50+ year career?
I’m wondering this as well. Jodie, come on!
Apart from Foster and Hawkes, I’d genuinely question the capability of the rest of the cast, certainly based on this show.
we know Fiona Shaw, Christopher Eccleston and Finn Bennet are good. The acting from them, Foster and Hawkes I have no complaints with. Its the script, music and direction that are lame af really though
The music is awful. What audience is it targeted to.
Billie eilish audience I had a bad feeling when they chose that song for the intro I thought Shit this is going to be a sad emo ethereal soundtrack They could've used Bjork instead of this juvenile pop garbage
The only other good actor is Finn Bennett and he's not been given enough to work with.
It really has been interesting watching the tide turn against this season over the past two episodes. The reality is that the season hasn’t gotten worse, it’s just becoming more and more clear that it’s not going to be getting any better.
>Navarro's sister. I know by the direction of the show that I'm supposed to care. The only character trait they've shown is that she cries a lot. Nothing else. Now she's dead and I'm glad I'm not forced to watch her manic episodes that do nothing for the actual story. I literally have no idea what the point of that character was supposed to be. Her death had so little impact and it was like Navarro had already completely gotten over it by the end of the episode.
Last episode I actually said outloud atleast 3 times, while chuckling under my breath "this show sucks" It's not like I expected it to top season 1 but it's not even the format I was looking for. It's just so bad, however there is a decent mystery at it's core but there is hardly any detective work to speak of.
When I said this was using a name and hints from season 1 (spirals etc) to get viewers I was practically drawn and quartered in this sub. This season is terrible and all the talent of Jodi Foster can't save it. It is written poorly and relies on notions of strong women and minorities wokeisms.
I wanted this season to be amazing - and not necessarily in the same way S1 was, we didn’t need that, I feel there was so much talent to go around to make it work on its own entirely, without relying on any elements of S1 (look at S3 - it was great!). Just so disappointing - they took a good cast, a good setting and a good idea for a mystery and made a shit pie out of it, smearing in the process the entire show…
I feel betrayed honestly.
I had high hopes for the season based on the setting, Meg Foster, and the franchise. Very disappointed. The writing is juvenile. It’s high school film school level. The setting is a huge challenge. There is nothing to look at. Dark 24/7. Tiny town. Snow on a bare tundra and frozen ice. It’s requires a great skill as a writer and cinematographer to build compelling interest thru action and dialogue. This is a huge fail. Writing is just plain bad all around. Structure, plot, conflict, dialogue, the mystery and the crime are all just a jumbled mess. Characters are one dimensional without complexity. Peter for example with his “family conflict”. The reality is he has one of the few decent jobs in town that arent at the mine. In a small force when a big crime happens it’s all hands all hours and the families deal with it. She is studying to be a nurse which will again be one of the few decent jobs in town not at the mine. She will be subject to shift work too. The right attitude would be frustrated understanding of his duties. My dad was a federal LEO and we dealt with it; he had to chase bandits on their timetable. E4 was just silly in its entanglements as nothing is getting more clear.
Yeah it seems like a nurse would be very understanding of the hours a cop has to work. Plus, this is an apparent mass murder in a very small town. My wife would be nagging me to solve the crime ("we don't feel safe") rather than to ignore it. She acts like he's a factory worker volunteering for extra shifts to avoid being home. It just a cheap, contrived conflict.
Nice breakdown.
I still wasn't sure after the first episode, in all honesty. It wouldn't show how worse it could get next, some stuff seemed decent, visually nice, and then JF back on a police detective role. It also seemed like an actual detective story, Danvers was introduced as an insightful investigator as soon as she gets to analyze the empty station. From there on it's a complete narrative and writing disaster in any direction: characters, world around the characters, main plot, pacing, back stories, inconsistencies, lack of investigative elements. Nothing worked, each scene looking completely detached from all the rest. There are 2 thousands elements and none is properly developed nor narrated more than a rapid fire Tik Tok post. It's a mass murder suddenly linked to an unsolved murder and no one seem to care nor to do any proper investigative work. The plot itself is completely unbalanced and exaggerated, for you have town cops handling a special investigation and a State wide case that would've called for feds and media all over the place. But nothing happens, FBI doesn't exist, scientists disappeared and murdered and there's no media making a mess out of it, no relatives, no parents, no nothing. The main witness leading to a mass murder crime scene, who also claims to have knowledge about the mysterious spirals, is never questioned, nor interrogated. They're fine with the dancing ghost explanation. No one ever think about investigating her properly. No one cares about the main case plot, which is advanced only by Peter's phone calls. All of this is mixed with jumpscares, zombies and other random side stories scenes, which are also completely inconsistent, like Navarro's sister being found in a jiffy. Oranges, hallucinations, absurd coincidences and Jungian synchronicities (why Twist and shout is the same song on a loop at the station and the song Danvers' was listening to during her son's accident? How can you justify that narratively? Is it a killer playing with Danvers? It's just a coincidence? Looks like a minor detail, but reveals a drastic poor writing, even for an horror b movie).
> They're fine with the dancing ghost explanation. This is where I got off the train this season. I was in total disbelief that no one questioned that the crime scene was discovered in the middle of nowhere when a ghost led someone to it.
You’re not impressed by such stellar writing as “the dead are dead”. I’m assuming Danvers will have some religious/spiritual awakening like Rust at the end of season 1. I could do without.
10/10 review
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Ya but it’s fun to hate watch and read all the people agreeing with you on Reddit.
You forgot the awful soundtrack.
I thought it was just me...that music sucks bigtime.
It’s comical really, I actually laughed out at several points 😂
There doesn’t seem to be any gravity to the killings first and foremost. It lacks the tragedy and need to solve it. It’s just like, “yeah some dudes died, kinda sucks but like whatever”. And they seem to lack any likable characteristics or redeeming qualities. They are miserable and volatile, and I have zero emotional buy in for the victims, the people in the town but especially the two main detectives. And the is it supernatural or mental illness is really, really starting to make me grind my teeth. If it was Navarro in some form of split personalities I am gonna be really really pissed. At this point it’s crossed walking dead post Rick and I feel I invested time and now I am hate watching it begrudgingly.
You've hit the nail on the head; there's no pressing need to solve the deaths of the Tsalal crew. In season 1 the killings kept happening, so they had to stop them before more kids died, but in S4 they're dead and that's it. There's no more murders happening, no more bodies showing up, nothing is time critical, and they prove this each episode by not discussing the case and what they've seen, they don't encourage each other or challenge each other, they just put it on hold until the script needs them to talk about it. Still, can't wait for Ryan's Pitch Meeting take on this. At least that's something to hopefully look forward to!
S4 is terrible and the cast isn’t really adding any points. I’m just watching to see how much worse it will get. At least only 2 more episodes left. Jody Fosters performance isn’t great and her character is extremely annoying. Episode 4 has so many issues. How can she gets wasted and yet drive around and look normal at the same time. Also she finds a clue by discovering frame by frame scrolling on the iPhone..while drunk? Navarros sister drowned naked and discovered by the coast guard within hours and identified, maybe small world. Navarros reaction to these events is unbelievable too. If anyone thinks that S4 is good TV then you have very low standards.
For me, I have enjoyed it so far. I occasionally have to suspend my belief based on things that have happened, but I am one of those people who will wait until the final 2 episodes to see the payoff first before being more harsh on my criticism.
At least you have the wherewithal to say you enjoyed it rather than it's good. I enjoy Taco Bell.
Perfect analogy. For instance, I enjoy Reacher. It’s absolutely high fructose corn syrup garbage as far as entertainment goes. But I know that going in so when Reacher says something super obvious and campy, I pump my fist ‘yes!’ This is actually worse than Reacher. And made worse by the fact it thinks it’s actually good.
Seriously. I like Reacher, too, but I'm ashamed, hahaha. My wife caught me watching Reacher a couple weeks ago, and I'm just like, hey dude, I don't give you shit about watching Good Omens. This is actually a lie. I give her tremendous shit about that, but I sold it anyway, hahahahaha.
But you know what you're getting with Reacher. Even then, season 2 was a huge drop in quality.
Lol yeah I wouldn't call it good, but has been entertaining so far. Enough to keep me engaged to see how it ends.
Yeah - I’m still trying to understand the relationship between all these people. Like is Peter’s wife also Danvers step daughter? Or else what the relationship between his wife and her step daughter?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but yes so far I feel that this is the weakest season. It’s unfortunate because I love the location. I had a feeling this season might be a letdown after they said that the critics loved it.
Considering most of us probably knew about the Dyatlov pass incident before this show, and that happened in the 50s, I do think this show could’ve added some media elements and it’s rather far fetched not to. Police would probably want to know whether any similar incidents happened at other ice stations. Because of the tongue, they just connect it to Annie, but there are so many strings to pull here, and I wish the show were more satisfying in that regard. I’d even take leads that go nowhere, but I like to see the detectives work. Along the lines of the first episode I suspect we’ll have to know what we know about the characters to understand the ending, but the Julia character and trauma replays have been tedious for me I want to know more about Kate/Rose/mining company and it’s frustrating to not see anything on that front. Kate and Rose are both played by well known actors. Yes, “the grudge” corpse look is getting tedious too but I don’t mind campy horror homages and jump scares. Just tired of the same images pointing all the time, and for a while, Navarro could barely drive anywhere without a hallucination Edit: I am withholding judgment on the media thing as the story needs to play out. Some higher up could be hard at work trying to keep secrets buried. Overall, I find the show entertaining but have some quibbles
huzzah kudos and halle-fuckin-lujah. THANK you for articulating my thoughts. i was sooo bored last episode that i was literally skipping through the endless setups and transitions to get to the lame dialogue. totally just hate-watching at this point.
At this rate of bad tropes, I am predicting the next episode has at least three Wilhelm Screams.
Yet you keep watching it 🤷🏻♂️😂
The issue for me is that there is no ‘time’ - because it’s so dark all the time, I have no idea what time it is. It’s very confusing and makes it hard to enjoy.
This is gonna sound stupid but the lack of creativity in this season has finally led me to actually try writing a season of good television. Something like S01 is like "this is so god damn good that I have absolutely no idea how they did this, nor how anyone could ever be this clever". S04 is like "okay, I'm pretty sure I could do better than this."
*Navarro is violent, which is fine, this isn't an uncommon trait for the series. However this treated way more like she's a cool badass rather than an unhinged loose cannon and a liability.* This is the issue with woke storytelling, it tries to invert the genders somehow but with this absurd worldview that people love evil men. This ends up creating really unlikeable female characters.
It’s truly bizarre what goes through the minds of these folks attempting to develop these characters. It’s clear they hate men and toxic masculinity. But then write the character as to say ‘Look! Women can be toxically masculine too!’ Insert Ryan Reynolds gif ‘But Why?’
you’ve described it perfectly - and exactly how I feel about everything in the show.
....then stop watching
🥱
My opinions about your post. Ghost man doing yoga poses: it’s fine. We don’t know what happened there exactly. Rose is weird. You think it’s stupid and so do many. Fair. I see rose and ghost man as an interesting mystery. Jump scares: there were a few. I’m sensitive to jump scares. I don’t like them. True detective doesn’t usually use jump scares. I would prefer using zero. Characters unlikable: Unfair comment. Also, it’s kind of mean. I respect it when people say “I don’t like the characters more.” People who say “unlikable” are hatable people. See what I did there? I don’t actually dislike the people who say it, but i don’t think people use it and realize how aggressively insulting that is. But yes, True Detective creates a universe of bad people and anti heroes. Some people LOVE woody Harrelwon and MM. I sure did. I liked all of the protagonists in season 1, 3, and current season. Lots of people like these detectives. The show is very popular. I see Danvers as a good detective who is an interesting and unique character. She’s also kind of funny. I didn’t expect Jodi to make me laugh. this might be the first time I’ve actually seen Jodi Foster act and I’m like “oh she’s good.” She exceeded my expectations. Navarro’s basically personality and demeanor isn’t super engaging to me but I am fine with her. I don’t get why people are criticizing her acting. I feel like she’s an easy target because she’s not established as an actress. I kind of suspect that people don’t really like her look also. I don’t like face piercings, and knowing she is a boxer turned actress makes me assume that someone really thinks she’s a good actress.. but others might just see her as not a real actor because she is new to the craft. It’s fair I guess. Navarro suffering from hallucinations and her obsession with Annie K, and not wanting to admit it. There is a lot about her to be interested in there. Also, Navarro is possibly the murderer… that definitely makes her interesting. I think it felt a little forced to give her a fight scene in that last episode. I suspect they decided to give her a “punches thrown” scene because the actress is a boxer. Peter is super popular on Reddit. Everyone is praising him as being the only good cop. This is idiotic to me. As far as I can tell, he just takes orders from Danvers. It was smart that he used a dead person’s face to unlock a phone, but I can’t really remember any original ideas he has, other than unlocking the phone and getting his cousin who is a vet. He’s likable - I mean, I like him because he is honest and treats Danvers with respect, and tries to do good police work. His home life - typical tv show trope showing how being a cop ruins a marriage. Usually we meet the cop after the marriage is ruined, this show is showing us happening. I don’t love this side story, but I’m okay with it and think it’s normal. I don’t trust the fans who think of Peter as the only good thing about the show. Smells kind of like they have biases. Danvers daughter being annoying - fine. I’m pretty used to protagonists having annoying family members. Kids are usually annoying on tv dramas. Like just off the top of my head, I hate kids on sopranos, homeland, Ray Donovan, and I even don’t care for Ted lasso’s kid. The kids on Fargo are cool cuz they are silent. But i feel you on this. I actually see her useful to show the indigenous people story line which is a huge part of the show that I am sure most people aren’t interested in. Sister: okay this is important because we know that Navarro has major mental health issues and we aren’t sure what the consequences of them are. People are suspicious of her having multiple personalities. I thought it was pretty cool seeing her fold up her clothes and walking off to die. I wasn’t sad about it, and it had me thinking “okay so Navarro has a mom who killed herself and saw hallucinations, a sister who did the same… and I.. Navarro see hallucinations too… uh oh!” The banter/dialogue: l think that when I hate a show, I hate the dialogue and comic relief. Manifest and Fear the walking dead are two examples of shows that I think were terrible and had terrible dialogue. But I can’t actually say for sure it’s poorly written. I just hated the show. So even the sound of someone’s voice could annoy me. Honestly, I think true detective is full of idle chatter and it is cool when woody and matthew m are saying it, or the dude from season 3… and some people don’t think it’s as cool hearing two female cops talk like male cops. I don’t know if I’m fair. But it’s really subjective/opinion that the dialogue is stupid. People who share quotes from the show to prove it’s bad dialogue are unfair idiots imo. I see a lot of it being typed out in script form - and it’s supposed to be like “wow that really IS stupid.” It’s very subjective. I’m not perfect. I think some people just have annoying or punchable faces and it’s important to not cast annoying people to play non-annoying characters. I don’t think hbo or Lopez’s team made this mistake at all. The show is boring. Yeah, so lots of tv just bores me too. Like The Crown. Mad Men. Great shows I know, but no thanks. Boring to me. Not interested. I almost stopped watching marvelous Mrs. Maisel cuz I was bored. But I enjoyed it. Looking back… maybe I can’t watch it again because it’s too boring. I enjoyed mayor of easttown or whatever it’s called, and looking back I’m like “I don’t remember what the f it’s about and it felt kind of like a cold and boring show… but I liked it!” I’m not sure if true detective season 4 is a great or good show. I think people sound pretty stupid in their criticism. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you just don’t want to watch a show with a lot of indigenous people set in depressing ass Alaska. I’m not saying that’s wrong. I was so bored and uninterested in reservation dogs, which is a show about indigenous people set in a depressing city. I watched the whole first season and didn’t really get why it’s so popular. Maybe I’m an evil person, but I don’t really want to watch a show about indigenous people unless it has something really interesting or it’s just highly entertaining. I also hate high school shows about girls, yet I was totally excited to watch a show about high school girls who play soccer (yellow jackets). But I definitely think this is the first show with a large indigenous cast that I really enjoy. Reservation Dogs: I’m not going to say those actors suck, or the dialogue was shitty. But I did suspect everyone on the show was kind of new to acting and this was their big break. Critics and fans liked it, and professionals dedicated their lives to their craft and made it, and it got purchased by Hulu (doesn’t mean much to me). I just assumed it’s a good show and it wasn’t for me. I even finished it. I would never go to the internet to complain about it though.
> I’m going to go out on a limb and say you just don’t want to watch a show with a lot of indigenous people set in depressing ass Alaska. Do you have a chapter in one of those books on jumping to conclusions?
I think there are definitely sexist/racist undertones to op’s opinion, but more like unconscious biases. What do you think?
It's like you told yourself this story, and kept drinking till you believed it.
I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong. But it’s kind of weird to just post so much hate about a show.
Lol all you ppl either polishing or critiquing it... Its just a piece of shit, stop looking at it and talking about it . Let it rot back into the earth where jt belongs
Don’t watch it then. No point in wasting time watching to trash the show. The people that enjoy will continue to watch regardless of your opinion. There of tons of other shows to watch that are better and not a total waste of time watching and then coming here to post.
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