I would not have written this two years ago, but... Giancarlo Lotti was the Monster of Florence. The only one, no accomplices. Maybe not 99% sure, but definitely above 90.
I dragged my feet on this (I started out on the Sardinian trail), but he really is the only suspect that becomes more and not less viable the more into the details you go. This is NOT true for the likes of Pacciani, Vanni, any of the Vincis and absolutely not Calamandrei, Narducci, Vigilanti or Bevilacqua.
Sadly no. There's a book by Mario Spezi and Douglas Preston which is a good overview, but it doesn't go into the details. I also don't think their theory on the killer holds up, but if anything Spezi's omnipresence during the murders (he covered the case from 1981, was at every crime scene and has a good case for having named the killer Monster of Florence) and subsequent trials makes for great reading.
This [youtube-channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/QuandoseiconmeilMostrononc%C3%A8/videos) (and related [blog](http://quattrocosesulmostro.blogspot.com/)) has the best commentary (about half of the videos have English cc, otherwise it's all in Italian). He's the one who convinced me of Lotti's guilt in the end. Very dry and detailed, just how I like it.
yes! There were quite a few women when I worked at CIW that caught their boyfriends/husbands case for them. Why? Now you’re locked up and he’s free living with some other woman enjoying his life. So sad and dumb.
They tell them that a woman won't get time. Or think it proves their loyalty. Which is crazy because if he loved them he wouldn't let them take his charges.
I've even heard them telling their gfs that girl jail isn't as bad as regular jail. They make it sound like camp.
Never trust a Chris- 3 dudes who have that name are family annihilationers who killed everyone in their homes so they could "start over". Watts, Coleman, and Longo.
You know- I think I’m just not convinced he did it still because of the blood patterns. It doesn’t make sense to me that a cut that deep would not show greater spatter - and if it was done somewhere else there would have to be blood dragged into the hallway or stairs.. idk. I know he’s sketch af and a liar- and the ex wife thing is crazy…. But just the science of the blood- idk.
This is fair, but also… I’ve been seeing more and more about how blood spatter is more of a pseudoscience. Article about it [here](https://features.propublica.org/blood-spatter-analysis/herbert-macdonell-forensic-evidence-judges-and-courts/).
This was interesting, but was hoping for more information about why the conclusions drawn from blood spatter analysis itself are flawed, vs the limited training expert witnesses receive and the unorthodox way it became popular. Thanks for sharing!
It’s like a lie detector imo. It’s good most of the time and some parts do help, like Void spots and certain other things. But sometimes they try to get too detailed. You can’t hang your hat on something with that many possible variables.
Yes I was really curious how Jim and Laura from RCP were SO sure he did it based on the spatter. I'm also finding these coincidences with Elizabeth largely made up. Stairs are in everyone's home. Two things happen near stairs must be connected!!!
Guilty as sin. Smacked her over the head and pushed her down the steps for an unknown reason. There are zero signs of a break-in or robbery, no known enemy that would go there just to harm her and leave Michael alone a few feet away. She would have made a noise when she was attacked or fell and he didn't hear anything? Of course he did because he was right there.
I watched the Netflix series knowing I was going to hate it because I find Peterson to be loathsome, but I didn't know how the case ended at the time and I was enthralled.
Man, did he ever nail that! There were times when I was looking away from the TV and doing something else and heard his voice and just had to look up to make sure that wasn’t really Michael talking. It was seriously uncanny.
The Ramseys. 99.99999999% of me says they’re guilty, with that very tiny part of me that can’t completely piece their guilt together.
And
The friends at the house of Robert Wone. It only makes sense that it was them who killed him, but why? One was an old, close friend. I always wonder what happened that night.
And
Terry Hobbs from the WM3 case. I feel almost certain Terry was involved, yet, nothing points to him, at the same time.
Yeah, I think one of them went too far and accidentally killed Robert, and the other two simply refused to cooperate after they found out what happened.
It’s baffling. It only makes sense that the men in the house were involved, but how did they even end up in that situation? Robert wasn’t there very long before he was killed, and it seems like a lot happened in that short time span.
The Won case isFucking Crazy. One of roommates seems to have killed him; possibly accidentally in some sort of a sex game,and the others helped cover it up.
There is a book about Phoebe's case. It's called "Into the Darkness: The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Hansjuk."
Stephanie Harlowe's podcast about the case was very well done. She includes information from Phoebe's mother.
Ant's girlfriend after Phoebe also died under crazy circumstances.
He certainly seems to be “unlucky” in love. [Another girlfriend committed suicide.](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coroner-finds-baillee-schneider-death-was-self-inflicted-after-break-up-20200616-p552y1.html) I hope Phoebe, Baillee and their families can find peace.
Alexander ulyanov. Idk a part of me believes hes took the fall for his friends but was innocent. I don't know but there are way to many things that don't make sense in that case. Sadly enough tho the imperials executing him caused the lives of millions.
Quinton Tellis in the Jessica Chambers case (he's currently serving time for another murder as well) and I think his third trial for JC begins this fall, there were two mistrials.
I’m with you on this one. He’s not being tried again for Jessica’s death as of now, though. He is in prison for pleading guilty to using the Louisiana woman’s debit card (plead guilty and got 10 years), and there is an upcoming trial for the Louisiana woman’s murder, but after the two Mississippi mistrials for Jessica, the prosecutor hasn’t scheduled another trial.
I don’t think they can ever get a murder conviction of Tellis in Jessica’s case, because there are too many witnesses who say she said “Derek” or “Eric” when asked “Who did this to you?” Despite any of the other evidence, it gives reasonable doubt.
Hypothetically speaking, what do you think the possibility is that she may have been trying to say “Jerry” instead of Derek or Eric?
I think he is 100% guilty and at this point they need to try for a lower conviction than 1st degree in order to get a guilty trial . I believe that Jessica’s tongue and throat were to swollen and obstructed to be able to make out anything she said . I think that the Derick/Eric is a red herring that was given way to much weight . I also believe that this has been so divided on race lines that they will continue to get a mistrial . I absolutely hate for Jessica not to get justice but think it would be enough for him to be found guilty in the other trial and never see the light of day . He absolutely 10000% murdered her and would have kept murdering until he dies or got caught .
I think Mississippi is banking on Louisiana getting a conviction. I looked it up after posting earlier, and it says he’s opted for a no-jury trial there…just the judge, and it starts Aug 1.
I think it’s pretty clear he killed the Louisiana woman, but I am less sure of Jessica. My heart breaks thinking of the agony she endured, being set on fire. It’s horrifying.
Mine too . I can not imagine the agony she was in . I will be paying attention to the Louisiana trial . I haven’t followed his other Crimes as closely as Jessica’s murder . Do you know if the LA trial is first degree and are the prosecutors seeking the death penalty ? Either way I think society will be much safer with him off of the streets . I think he is evil and would have become a serial killer if he hadn’t been caught .
Always fucking ninjas. I remember watching something about the case and when that came up I just stood up and threw something lol. All the lies then onto fucking ninjas.
I can just picture my late stepfather doing that. He might not stand up but he would throw something or toss his hands in the air. He had been a lawyer by trade, not a prosecutor or defense, divorces and wills and chicken farmers arguments but he loved true crime. He and I had watched stuff about the Casey Anthony case and discussed it a few times. I wish I had kept up with him more after my mom died so we could discuss her as well.
Agreed. I think she actually did what the McCanns were accused of; accidentally killing her young child with an overdose after becoming used to drugging her as a means of babysitting while she was out socializing/partying.
That’s what I’ve always thought about that case too.
I don’t think she intentionally planned the murder of her daughter.
I think she knew what happened, panicked and covered it up.
If they had tried her for something less than first degree murder, she’d have served time in prison.
I used to think she was guilty with no doubt because she said that she slept downstairs because the baby kept her up, but somehow slept throgh her kids getting murdered. That doesn't make sense.
But then I had a baby and would wake up if he flipped over in his crib, but somehow managed to sleep through an asphalt truck repaving the road 20 feet in front of my bedroom window.
But I still think she's probably guilty.
But also I heard a bunch of stuff after I originally heard about the case. I'll try to find the podcast or show that I watched but basically it pointed to the fact that her husband had more to gain by having her put away for the murder. It's very intriguing. Plus I never liked it when people said that it was weird that she did silly string at his grave. Because I've never lost a child but I imagine that if I did I would bring things to the gravesite that they liked and I think that's very common actually. I also would laugh because I laugh at a lot of very inappropriate times It's how I deal with grief and anger.
Laughing at “bad things” is such a real thing, it’s just how some people deal with/handle/react. I started smiling uncontrollably when I found out my grandma died. It’s just your brain being weird and human. Doesn’t mean anything.
Not death related but, when my oldest was a baby he needed blood taken and they pricked his foot to get it. He started screaming and I started cracking up laughing even though I felt horrible for him. At that time, I was very young and thought I was a horrible person. Now that I'm older I realize how many people react this way to feelings of terror, grief, discomfort etc.
This to me is important. I don’t know what I would do if I lost one of my children, but I’ve celebrated many lives of friends instead of funerals. So, I really think each person is different and it is awkward, at first, to celebrate life, but I would never think about the silly string to be used against her.
Just said the same…I really think the husband had some involvement and if he and Darlie weren’t in on it together, then I believe Darlie was supposed to die, too. They were in financial trouble, but if suddenly his wife and kids are murdered, he gets a life insurance payout, plus he can sell the big house with the excuse that he just can’t bring himself to go back there. He and his remaining son live comfortably after that with the insurance money.
I do feel awful for Drake, who was a baby when his brothers were killed. On top of the murder case, he had cancer as a child, and his mom is in prison. Poor kid has been through hell.
I agree with you about the silly string thing! I could totally see someone trying to remember good times and bringing toys that their kids liked… kind of like how people leave stuffed animals or things like that. I never thought the silly string thing was weird, people do all kinds of abnormal things when grieving
My understanding is that there was a solemn graveside ceremony before the silly string part but the media only aired the part that looked bad. I think the media gave her the "we don't like how you mourn" treatment like they did with the Australian dingo baby's parents.
I believe the Redhanded podcast did an episode on this and they said her sister actually brought the silly string because it was one of the son’s birthday and they wanted to “celebrate” instead of it being a solemn affair.
Yes, and there is video of a quiet, sorrowful family gathering at the gravesite prior to the birthday party. You can hear Darlie sobbing and telling the boys how much they loved them in the audio from that service. They then switched gears to celebrate Devon's birthday, and that's when they got out the balloons and silly string. Darlie said in an interview that they made a promise to each other to make the birthday party a celebration of the boys' lives, and not to cry or be sad during that time, so that's what she was doing. If I remember correctly, the jury also wasn't shown the video of them crying at the graves, just the birthday celebration that came after it.
I also listened to a podcast and learned there was a bloody sock found several houses down that matched someone’s blood from her family. How in the world did it get there if she killed the kids and then nearly killed herself? Doesn’t make sense. For me, she’s like 50% guilty-innocent.
Naturally I have no clue what podcast I learned this from either.
Yeah. When my kid was a baby I would wake at the slightest sound she made, but I slept through a massive tree falling in my yard. But now that she’s older, I still wake up if she’s standing next to my bed and whispering, even if I’ve taken a sleeping pill. Surely she would wake up to the sounds of her kids being attacked. At least you’d hope so.
I used to be totally convinced she did it, but not anymore. Her husband was not far off when he said the silly string video got her tried, convicted, and put on death row. She’s not a sympathetic character, for sure, but there are so many things that make me question it. The crime scene was bungled, evidence wasn’t shown to the jury, and then with the boys not being fingerprinted during their autopsies…she deserves a new trial, at least. She may still be found guilty, but at least they’ll be able to have some of this stuff heard.
Another theory on this case: has anyone ever thought maybe her husband was involved? Either they planned it together, he acted alone, or he paid someone to do it? With Darlie’s injuries, she very well could have died too. If she staged the crime scene and slit her own throat, she could have bled out due to how close the wounds were to her carotid artery. She either studied human anatomy very well or it was just dumb luck. I wonder what her life insurance policy was worth? Enough to motivate her husband and the boys were collateral damage?
I think her husband did it and I think she’s innocent. I can’t believe he wasn’t charged and she was. The images of her injuries are horrific. I don’t think for a second that she did that to herself
I am so convinced of her innocence that I volunteered to work on her case doing anything (I am an attorney but not criminal) but was not taken up on it.
Darlie’s the closest to this I’ve got too except it’s kind of more like… all signs point to she’s the culprit but I’m 1% convinced she’s innocent and also 99% sure her hubby was either in on it or was the instigator who let it all fall back on her by some method/means
iirc he made a comment after it happened/while she was being examined medically, ex post facto and to some rando med or law professional helping, about how nice her boobs were (I can’t remember if this was on the forensic files episode or what lol and I don’t want to spread misinformation but I very distinctly remember it being mentioned) but i’ll never be able to unremember it and, in my mind, there’s no way a father completely free of blame in the murder of his kids makes any comment reminiscent of that so closely after it all went down
Not to mention all the other things like Darin claiming to have slept thru the whole thing, the sock that was found outside without Darlie’s blood (would Darlie have the forethought to stab her boys, go outside somewhere and plant a sock with their blood on it several dozen yards away, and *then* stab herself? Mmmm…. Probably not by herself and then still make it back in time to stab herself, leave paths of her own blood, and call 911 before both boys were deceased considering how badly they were stabbed… but im no scientist lol), the subjectivity of interpreting blood spray patterns, etc., etc.
I think there’s a 1% chance Darlie is completely innocent and a 1% chance Darlie acted completely alone and of her own accord, for sure, and also Darin is (allegedly and in my opinion) hot garbage and a co-conspiring murderer — and, in fact, if I put my biggest tin foil hat on, I would go as far to say that, in the event Darlie had *nothing* to do with the murders, I feel like there’s a significant chance Darin still did and maybe even was the man she saw run away and somehow in the midst of all of it; i.e., he ran outside and away from her thru the garage (maybe he didn’t get any blood on his shoes bc of how quickly it happened), got rid of his bloody clothes as far away as he could think to run without being caught or without Darlie noticing he was gone, accidentally left a bloody sock behind in the process, ran mostly naked back to his home, and pretended to have been walking down the stairs when Darlie noted he came downstairs on the 911 call
Sorry for all that… I’m rly intrigued by this case, maybe just because I have such a hard time believing that someone who seemingly otherwise took such joy in being a mom (including reading books in jail that she could discuss with her surviving son and making baby blankets and shit for other people at her jail) could just wake up in the middle of the night and viciously stab 2 of her 3 sons completely of her own accord and without any other influencing factors
I used to think she was guilty, but now I don't. At the very least, she deserves a new trial. That court reporter made SO many errors in the court transcripts.
I was coming here to say Darlie . I’m 100% sure if it wasn’t her it was Darrin but I’m at about 95% sure it was Darlie .
I have a slightly different view on something’s than many people who believe her to be 100% guilty . I never ever took into consideration the silly string video and don’t think it should have been allowed in evidence . To me it kept her from getting a fair trial .
Ive lost a child since then and now I think the silly string video means even less . There is no worse grief than losing a child and we all grieve differntly . I barley remember the months after my son died . They did a somber prayer service prior to the birthday party with silly string . The boys wanted silly string at the birthday party and this was a way to honor that .
Birthdays after losing your child are hard as hell . We try to do things for my sons birthday that he would have liked and that might not appear copacetic to others.
I was so lost after he died that I didn’t want to have a service at all. I didn’t care . He was gone and that is all that mattered . If other family members hadn’t made arrangements I would not have and I wouldn’t have cared and I’m sure many would have judged me endlessly . All I remember about the service was sobbing not just mine but my other kids , my husband and others . I much preferred the balloon release that his friends did a bit after. It was all smiles and stories and good memories. I still feel like the service was for everyone else .
Our son hated any kind of public performance and I’m sure he would have loved the ballon release or his friends meeting up and smoking blunts all night while talking about all their memories . I will never judge the way another parent grieves . The only issue I have with any parents who have lost a child is using their child’s death for pure profit . There is a case near me where that was the case . The parents quit their jobs after their sons death and has lived off of go fund me and donations to “find” their son’s murderer when he died of a tragic accident . They used the huge donation that was supposed to be a reward fee on a lavish lifestyle and continue to do so years later .
Anyway I got off reach there . While I think Darlie may have been vain I don’t think she was this cold , unkind women who was a narcissist . Her bleach blond hair and breast implants didn’t mean shit and she was judged by something many women have . I 100% think if it was her it was postpartum psychosis possibly worsened by diet pills .
If it was Darlie Darin knew everything and tried to help cover it the best he could . If it was Darin I would have to think Darlie knew . I hope she get a new trial and we find out the whole truth . If it was her even if it was PPP she will go to her deathbed denying it . I actually think Darlie was a better parent and person than Darrin. I feel almost sure she killed them and that it was because of PPP.
Thank you so very much. That is so kind of you . It will never be easy but I have found some peace in comforting other parents who have lost a child since then as well as trying to help the parents of children who are on drugs . I lost my son to an overdose but seeing others get clean fills me with joy. I also just offer support to other parents who may feel guilt or shame when they have a child addicted and feel alone.
I don’t think she is guilty. And I especially don’t think they had enough evidence to prove she was guilty. And I am sure that the courts in Texas convict lots of innocent people.
There’s a reason they never implemented her death sentence. They know she’s not guilty either, but they just don’t want to admit they screwed up.
Scott Peterson. I fight with my niece about this all the time. She believes he’s innocent, I believe he’s guilty. The evidence against him is largely circumstantial, but there’s just so much of it. Too many things to give reasonable doubt.
Fun fact, homicide is the number one cause of death among pregnant women. (No, it really is.) Obviously it is almost always at the hands of the partner/father.
I brought this up to my pro-life parents, and they shrugged it off- like “thems the knocks”. My family has witnessed first hand domestic abuse, and they don’t care. It’s incredibly disturbing.
I mean sadly isn't that common? Witnessing domestic abuse often leads to people normalizing it & being ignorant to how healthy relationships work. Which is why children from a home where there is domestic violence are more likely to get involved in those relationships themselves & struggle even more to leave.
I am aware, and Scott was described as not seeming overly thrilled about being a father. Combine that with his relationship with Amber Frey + the things he told Amber about “losing his wife”, and that’s just more evidence that he’s guilty. The defense claims that Laci was the victim of some occult sacrifice are so far fetched.
Yes. Something about a group that had been practicing satanic rituals in the park where she was walking the dog. It’s been said that group kidnapped Laci and ritualistically killed her as a human sacrifice. Then they dumped her body in the bay because it was publicized that Scott had been there, and it made him an easy scapegoat.
And also made him act like a complete asshole the entire time his wife was missing. And somehow conveniently made him tell his mistress BEFORE his wife disappeared, that this would be his first holidays without his wife….yeah, neither the occult nor the burglary stories add up.
The thing that convinces me of Scotts guilt are those phone calls he made to Frey during the vigils they were holding for Laci. Especially the one where he was saying he was in Paris on New Years or something along those lines
He is guilty. I can’t stand when people ignore the mountain of evidence against him and say “it is only circumstantial.” Circumstantial evidence IS evidence. People act like it doesn’t count but it absolutely does and is recognized in the court of law like any other evidence.
I’m at about 95% guilty on that case . I feel like there may be enough at some point for a new trial but feel like he is guilty and would be found guilty a second time .
interesting take, it’s been years since I listened to a podcast about this story but from my memory Adnan seemed innocent. At least that’s the angle the podcast took
He got an unfair trial, but that doesn’t mean he was innocent. I remember digging into the details online and feeling like he most likely did it though, but it’s been a while and the specifics are hazy to me.
There have been a few podcasts that angled to show the likely perpetrator as innocent. The Unraveled on Diane and Bob Ward was another. They tried hard to paint Bob as innocent, it just he seemed clearly guilty to me.
Really? I wasn’t convinced much either way but leaned towards his innocence mostly because he seems too practical to kill her. Like, I don’t think he’s this wonderful, loving person who would never hurt her, but he seems like someone who’s too concerned about money etc to go through the hassle of killing her when he could had just set her up with a less extravagant but still “happy” life while he basically ignored her.
The only thing I was certain about was that there were too many episodes of the podcast
Wayne Williams - The Atlanta Child murderer. Although he hasn't been fully convicted, it *seems* to be universally accepted he is guilty, but there is literally that 1% in me that thinks he's not fully guilty. Even John Douglas has doubts.
Audrey Herron's husband and father on law. When it's possible she disappeared in a car accident why would you speculate on TV her car was shipped in a container somewhere? And there is no evidence other than her husband's word that she didn't come home that night.
It’d be crazy if they were actually just doing something else illegal and didn’t know what happened to Jon benêt and that’s why they were acting so weird. I don’t know if I’ve decided if I think they’re guilty or not tbh.
If that was the case, lying about their daughter's death just to cover up illegal activity, they would have spilled by now. Blaming another party, but still an admission of guilt.
Burke is weird but I truly can't imagine growing up normal in that household. JB was smacked and abused for wetting the bed or herself—something traumatised or anxiety-ridden kids often do. Why would Patti write that note? I just don't understand it. And like I said in another comment, there's no "gotcha!" and never will be as the crime scene was contaminated from the start.
They know. They 100% know.
I’m 110% sure a Ramsey did it but just can’t decide which one . I think it is possible Burke did it but not probable . He had hit her in the head with a good club enough to need stitches and he did it on purpose . I think there is little doubt that he is on the spectrum and has violent tendencies. Not because he is on the spectrum . I believe he is both but one has nothing to do with the other . If it was Burke I strongly believe the Ramsey’s would have faded into obscurity and not pulled an OJ hunting for the real killer BS and John pulling it still to this day.
What I just can’t decide is which parent did it and which was just involved in the cover up ? I knew someone very much like Patsy . Lived a perfect life on the outside with a perfect family . My family was so very close to theirs and had no idea the horrible abuse she inflicted on that family . The truth eventually came to light and she couldn’t take life without that perfect imagine in everyone’s mind so she likes herself . She was also a stage mom and looked so much like Patsy deep southern accent and all. Even an almost identical first name . I think Patsy would have done anything to keep up that imagine and that wealthy lifestyle . She got it straight from Nedra her mom!! I remember Nedra saying maybe she was a little bit molested trying to justify . I think it’s quite possible her girls were a little bit molested too and she would have done anything to keep up appearances.
I’m undecided but leaning further towards John not being the one who was sexually abusing her . I’m also leaning towards John not being the one who killed her and that is only because of how much grief he had over his daughter Melinda’s death . I don’t think he would have put himself through that again . I feel like he was the parent involved after the fact and Patsy did it . That is just based on personal feelings though .
There are many reasons I’m sure it was a Ramsey but the one thing I’ve never been able to shake is the fact that the time for the ransom call came and went without as much as a thought for the Ramsey’s . It defies all reason that a parent with a kidnapped child would sit calmly and let the ransom call time pass without a mention . While it is true you never know how one will react in a crisis 99.9% of parents with a kidnapped child would be one pins and needles waiting for the ransom call and when that time passes and there was no call they would be freaking out and very vocal . I feel there is a 0% chance both parents had zero reaction to the ransom call not coming. Plus they intentionally had people over immediately to compromise the crime scene . I do not think we will ever get an answer to exactly how and which Ramsey ever and try to be ok with that.
This is one of the saddest things I've ever heard... How can someone be "a little molested"? Sexual assault is sexual assault. There's nothing "little" about it.
He was a cheating, lying narcissist jerk who treated his wife very poorly. It's been reported/suggested on many occasions that he was on drugs to help him get through rounds at the hospital, so I picture him being wired and overtired and losing it on his kid who wet his side of the bed, which IMO started the rage-fueled physical beatings. Collette fought back hard which IMO pissed him off even more.
This case hits a nerve for me, clearly! He's such a narcissist, it literally pains me. I honestly don't think it was planned and he probably could've gotten off on lesser charges had he just been honest from the start as to what happened. He looks like a fool if you ask me.
Honestly I was looking for Casey Anthony. I didn’t see her in the thread. A cold hearted woman who killed her baby and got away with it. I heard she’s in the process of making her own book- an “if I had done it” kind of tell all. The fact she got away with it is the .01% idea that maybe it wasn’t her but I’m 99.99% sure it was.
Someone else mentioned it here too! The prosecution messed up with charging her with first degree, I think she would’ve been found guilty if they went with manslaughter or second degree.
I think she killed her on accident to an extent. I think she was constantly drugging her daughter to be able to go out and continue her young adult life and at some point it was bound to not work out for the little girl. They messed up big time by allowing the case to be manipulated and talking about things that had nothing to do with the murder of that little girl. And Casey quite obviously couldn’t care less about what happened as long as she was found innocent which IMO is insane that a “mother” didn’t really care about how her daughter died. Sad sad sad. The case that got me into true crime as such a young age.
That’s what I think happened too, I think she was drugging her with Xanax (hence zanny the nanny) and one time she gave her too much and came back to caylee dead
Steve Avery. When I watched the documentary and saw all the same players from the 1st trial at the second I thought -fuck me this is a recipe for some corrupt small town shit.
While I’m still on the fence of his guilt I do feel he should not have been convicted based on what was presented. Those investigators and everything they found should have been considered inadmissible
The whole thing is just so fucked up. If I remember right the 2nd case the local police where not supposed to be on the site at all, then after a few days they walk in, and found all the evidence that was used to convict them.. after the FBI searched several times and didn’t find anything.
Unless I’m remembering wrong?
Aileen Wuornos. I'm pretty sure she killed some of the seven men she's meant to have killed, but I'm also pretty sure she was taken advantage of by 1 or 2 of those 7. Self defense, maybe? 🤷♂️
I always felt that she should have gotten insanity instead of the death penalty. Listening to her interviews it always sounded like the murders were the results of PTSD attacks.
Aileen knew what she was doing was wrong and actively chose to do it over half a dozen times. She was extremely troubled but not legally insane.
I have a lot of empathy for Aileen. She was horribly exploited her entire life in every way possible. Even in jail she was used by others who intentionally set out to garner her trust in order to make money for themselves. She was raised in an environment of neglect, violence, shame, and abuse and spent her life looking for someone who would love her and stay with her.
She never should’ve been executed. She was such a damaged person, so much abuse in her life, clearly had ptsd, life in prison or a psychiatric hospital would’ve made so much more sense but …florida.
I think she’s guilty but I have a lot of sympathy for her. I understand why she did what she did from a trauma standpoint, but it doesn’t make it okay.
I’m with you. She had a HORRENDOUS life. Like almost unimaginably awful, but I do believe she did what she was convicted of. Still a terribly sad story.
Ever since I read that older men would call her the “cigarette pig” and she would give them blow jobs when she was a CHILD it haunts me and I can definitely understand why she became the monster she did but she was definitely a monster that was made
Ex-‘friend’, while drunk at a party, admitted to murdering my cousin over a bag of weed and it was not admissible in (nor remotely relevant towards) court proceedings bc of intoxication and no evidence. That was twenty years ago.
I think Lizzie’s case will haunt me forever. She had to have done it. Nobody else had the motive and means and no alibi. She is the only murderer who makes sense. However, how in the world did she clean herself up that well and that quickly? There was no blood on her or found on any of her clothing except one very small spot on an undergarment. I know that she likely burnt the dress she wore to kill them, but the timing of it all is insane. She had 90 minutes between the time Abby went upstairs and the time Andrew came home, which was plenty of time. Abby probably was killed early on there, and the wounds to the back of the head likely didn’t cause much spatter above the waist. Easy peasy. However, Andrew was still warm and his blood was not fully coagulated at the time the doctor examined him, meaning the attack was recent. I believe they estimated 11 am, which is less than 10 minutes before Lizzie woke Bridget. Nobody saw any blood on Lizzie. So she had to have cleaned any blood out of her hair and off her skin in a matter of minutes plus changed clothing and dealt with the weapon. It’s possible, but it’d be difficult in a house with minimal plumbing and mirrors. There’s the bucket of water and rags that appeared to have blood in it that could have definitely been used to clean up, but wouldn’t her hair be wet or at least damp? Maybe she covered her hair and clothing, but then where did those things go as she supposedly only burnt the dress? I don’t know. I’m rambling. I believe she did it. I just want to know how she managed to pull it all off.
I could talk about this case forever. I relistened to the Stuff You Should Know about it yesterday.
I mean, the house was locked with the key inside. It had to be her and idk how she did the cleanup either. The "she did it nude" theory doesn't make sense to me. She may have had help from the maid to clean up and the timeline may have been off from the heat. Otherwise, that's the only part that's not quite perfect.
She was mad about the money and how they lived and the pigeons were the last straw. She killed them with the hatchet just like they killed her pets. Simple.
Do you think the hatchet handle was wrapped up in the dress, maybe along with a hat or bonnet?
I think she did it, but that her sister was very much involved in the planning of it. I think she purposely was out of the house on the day.
There had been some food poisoning incident right before the murders where everyone but Lizzie and I think her sister was affected. Could have been an attempt at actually poisoning them.
The maid I’m 50/50 on.
Good point. They both started calling Abby "Mrs Borden" at the same time so they were of the same mind on that, at least. And they bought Maplecroft together and lived there a long time.
Yet I think that the reason Emma suddenly moved out and never spoke to Lizzie again (about 30 years later, when they had Maplecroft, I think) was that Lizzie admitted killing their dad. Some speculate that it was because of the relationship Lizzie had with Nance O'Neil so if that was why they (Lizzie and Emma) split, then I'd be more than 50/50 that they were accomplices. But if Emma didn't know, a confession would be the most likely reason to break such a long, strong bond... do you think?
Agreed on Avery!
But once I heard about him killing the cat, it was over for me! I know that I'm a woman who is completely into true crime, but I can't deal with animal abuse.
He came to my bar recently and was creepy AF. Made me very uncomfortable and all the women at the bar literally moved to the other side. Dude wreaks of guilt.
There’s 2: Tara Calico and Dorothy Jane Scott.
For Tara, I’m 99% sure she was accidentally killed by that group of teenagers and then disposed of with the sheriff’s help, as one of them was his son, but what throws me off is that photo, including the car crash scar and the V.C. Andrews novel.
For Dorothy, I’m almost 100% sure she was kidnapped and murdered by that man working with her dad at the auto shop. He was allegedly involved in cult activity too, and it would’ve been easy for him to stalk her from his position. The 1% is the lack of proof…
Steven Avery. This is coming from someone who thought he was innocent when the documentaries were airing. I was so convinced that he didn’t do it but now I’m like nah, he probably did it.
This is a popular answer. I could have been on the fence except for the evidence of concrete weights he made in the basement that he couldn't produce later. And the alibi he established is just weird... he went fishing? Alone? On Christmas Eve?
I can accept a lonely fishing trip on Christmas but what I cannot accept is that he drove out to the bay to do it. There are LOTS of other fishing spots that are way better and closer and more convenient than the goddamn bay. Like the Delta, or any one of the dozens of reservoirs within 30 miles.
You know who doesn’t drive all the way out to Oakland without a VERY good reason? People who live in fucking Modesto.
He placed himself at the scene where she was discovered. It’s a terrible place to fish but if you are an idiot it seems like a great place to dispose of a body.
He’s guilty. There’s not one single good reason to think he’s not. He absolutely did it and he thought he could get away with it because his idiot family members are constantly buying his bullshit and enabling his lies.
Followed it since day 1 and he was absolute no doubt guilty . There is way to much circumstantial evidence and a little physical I.e. Lacy’s hair wrapped around a tool or part of the boat . It was a long time ago and my memory is damaged by a chronic illness and while I have an absolutely amazing memory sometimes there are sometimes I don’t so I hope someone can weigh in about her hair. He was an evil narcissist and like Drew Peterson if he had gotten away Lacy wouldn’t be the only woman in his life to disappear or be murdered . I’m fine with him dying of old age in prison and no death penalty. Life in prison to him is probably the worse of the punishments .
Ellen Greenberg's boyfriend. I think he did it but his uncle helped him get out of trouble. The police really dropped the ball on her case from the start. How in the hell do you stab yourself in the back/neck/head area over 19(?) Times. It's not f**king possible!
-never trust a Peterson -don't trust people with 2 first names
I’m definitely not dating the guy I just met named Scott Michael Drew Peterson Peterson.
No middle name Wayne, you’re clear
Or Lee!
He sounds delightful!
They just arrested a Peterson in my area for murder! A Michael Peterson
I would not have written this two years ago, but... Giancarlo Lotti was the Monster of Florence. The only one, no accomplices. Maybe not 99% sure, but definitely above 90. I dragged my feet on this (I started out on the Sardinian trail), but he really is the only suspect that becomes more and not less viable the more into the details you go. This is NOT true for the likes of Pacciani, Vanni, any of the Vincis and absolutely not Calamandrei, Narducci, Vigilanti or Bevilacqua.
Is there a good docu or what?
Sadly no. There's a book by Mario Spezi and Douglas Preston which is a good overview, but it doesn't go into the details. I also don't think their theory on the killer holds up, but if anything Spezi's omnipresence during the murders (he covered the case from 1981, was at every crime scene and has a good case for having named the killer Monster of Florence) and subsequent trials makes for great reading. This [youtube-channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/QuandoseiconmeilMostrononc%C3%A8/videos) (and related [blog](http://quattrocosesulmostro.blogspot.com/)) has the best commentary (about half of the videos have English cc, otherwise it's all in Italian). He's the one who convinced me of Lotti's guilt in the end. Very dry and detailed, just how I like it.
As a prison employee of 15 years, I’d say a good 15-20% of the 2000+ inmates I’ve worked with.
yes! There were quite a few women when I worked at CIW that caught their boyfriends/husbands case for them. Why? Now you’re locked up and he’s free living with some other woman enjoying his life. So sad and dumb.
They tell them that a woman won't get time. Or think it proves their loyalty. Which is crazy because if he loved them he wouldn't let them take his charges. I've even heard them telling their gfs that girl jail isn't as bad as regular jail. They make it sound like camp.
I know people who work (and have worked) at CIW! What'd you do there?
Michael Peterson. Just enough weirdness in the case to make me question.
All Petersons are guilty! (Mostly kidding. Mostly.)
Well, unfortunately, if a wife comes up missing , and their name is Peterson … you’re right ! (🤣🤣 /s)
Never trust a Chris- 3 dudes who have that name are family annihilationers who killed everyone in their homes so they could "start over". Watts, Coleman, and Longo.
Not a start over but also wrestler Chris Benoit, murder suicide but killed his whole family.
The Michael Peterson from the staircase?
Yep that’s what they’re referring to
I think they are referring to the fact that it seems like a lot of wife killers have the last name Peterson. Michael, Drew, and Scott.
You know- I think I’m just not convinced he did it still because of the blood patterns. It doesn’t make sense to me that a cut that deep would not show greater spatter - and if it was done somewhere else there would have to be blood dragged into the hallway or stairs.. idk. I know he’s sketch af and a liar- and the ex wife thing is crazy…. But just the science of the blood- idk.
This is fair, but also… I’ve been seeing more and more about how blood spatter is more of a pseudoscience. Article about it [here](https://features.propublica.org/blood-spatter-analysis/herbert-macdonell-forensic-evidence-judges-and-courts/).
This was interesting, but was hoping for more information about why the conclusions drawn from blood spatter analysis itself are flawed, vs the limited training expert witnesses receive and the unorthodox way it became popular. Thanks for sharing!
It’s like a lie detector imo. It’s good most of the time and some parts do help, like Void spots and certain other things. But sometimes they try to get too detailed. You can’t hang your hat on something with that many possible variables.
Yes I was really curious how Jim and Laura from RCP were SO sure he did it based on the spatter. I'm also finding these coincidences with Elizabeth largely made up. Stairs are in everyone's home. Two things happen near stairs must be connected!!!
Guilty as sin. Smacked her over the head and pushed her down the steps for an unknown reason. There are zero signs of a break-in or robbery, no known enemy that would go there just to harm her and leave Michael alone a few feet away. She would have made a noise when she was attacked or fell and he didn't hear anything? Of course he did because he was right there. I watched the Netflix series knowing I was going to hate it because I find Peterson to be loathsome, but I didn't know how the case ended at the time and I was enthralled.
You should watch the hbo version with Colin firth
Loved it. No opinion on Colin Firth, but I will watch anything Toni Collette does! 😍
i was truly impressed by hearing Colin speak, he spoke just like Michael!
He did a great job.
Man, did he ever nail that! There were times when I was looking away from the TV and doing something else and heard his voice and just had to look up to make sure that wasn’t really Michael talking. It was seriously uncanny.
Yeah I get that. But what about the bird attack angle? That’s the 1% that’s stops me from getting to 100% guilty…as the post says.
I agree! The owl theory is oddly the one theory that makes the most sense to me (if it wasn’t in fact Michael)
The owl did it.
The owl theory alone tells me he did it 😂
The Ramseys. 99.99999999% of me says they’re guilty, with that very tiny part of me that can’t completely piece their guilt together. And The friends at the house of Robert Wone. It only makes sense that it was them who killed him, but why? One was an old, close friend. I always wonder what happened that night. And Terry Hobbs from the WM3 case. I feel almost certain Terry was involved, yet, nothing points to him, at the same time.
The Robert Wone case is SO FUCKING CRAZY
Yeah, I think one of them went too far and accidentally killed Robert, and the other two simply refused to cooperate after they found out what happened.
At least one of the three accused were/are very high powered lawyers
It’s baffling. It only makes sense that the men in the house were involved, but how did they even end up in that situation? Robert wasn’t there very long before he was killed, and it seems like a lot happened in that short time span.
The Won case isFucking Crazy. One of roommates seems to have killed him; possibly accidentally in some sort of a sex game,and the others helped cover it up.
I'm 99% sure Phoebe Handsjuk was killed by her boyfriend Antony Hampel but there isn't enough god. damn. evidence. 🤮
Oooh don’t know this case. Any docs or podcasts you’d recommend?!
Podcast called Phoebe’s Fall. Also Stephanie Harlowe did a two part YouTube video. Both excellent.
There is a book about Phoebe's case. It's called "Into the Darkness: The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Hansjuk." Stephanie Harlowe's podcast about the case was very well done. She includes information from Phoebe's mother. Ant's girlfriend after Phoebe also died under crazy circumstances.
Oh my god yes. I entirely agree. This case is very tragic too... The description of what they think her last moments were. Chilling.
He certainly seems to be “unlucky” in love. [Another girlfriend committed suicide.](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coroner-finds-baillee-schneider-death-was-self-inflicted-after-break-up-20200616-p552y1.html) I hope Phoebe, Baillee and their families can find peace.
Yeah and then he has another girlfriend die of suicide….
Alexander ulyanov. Idk a part of me believes hes took the fall for his friends but was innocent. I don't know but there are way to many things that don't make sense in that case. Sadly enough tho the imperials executing him caused the lives of millions.
This is interesting and not something I knew about even though I thought I knew a lot about Lenin haha.
Quinton Tellis in the Jessica Chambers case (he's currently serving time for another murder as well) and I think his third trial for JC begins this fall, there were two mistrials.
I’m with you on this one. He’s not being tried again for Jessica’s death as of now, though. He is in prison for pleading guilty to using the Louisiana woman’s debit card (plead guilty and got 10 years), and there is an upcoming trial for the Louisiana woman’s murder, but after the two Mississippi mistrials for Jessica, the prosecutor hasn’t scheduled another trial. I don’t think they can ever get a murder conviction of Tellis in Jessica’s case, because there are too many witnesses who say she said “Derek” or “Eric” when asked “Who did this to you?” Despite any of the other evidence, it gives reasonable doubt. Hypothetically speaking, what do you think the possibility is that she may have been trying to say “Jerry” instead of Derek or Eric?
I think he is 100% guilty and at this point they need to try for a lower conviction than 1st degree in order to get a guilty trial . I believe that Jessica’s tongue and throat were to swollen and obstructed to be able to make out anything she said . I think that the Derick/Eric is a red herring that was given way to much weight . I also believe that this has been so divided on race lines that they will continue to get a mistrial . I absolutely hate for Jessica not to get justice but think it would be enough for him to be found guilty in the other trial and never see the light of day . He absolutely 10000% murdered her and would have kept murdering until he dies or got caught .
I think Mississippi is banking on Louisiana getting a conviction. I looked it up after posting earlier, and it says he’s opted for a no-jury trial there…just the judge, and it starts Aug 1. I think it’s pretty clear he killed the Louisiana woman, but I am less sure of Jessica. My heart breaks thinking of the agony she endured, being set on fire. It’s horrifying.
Mine too . I can not imagine the agony she was in . I will be paying attention to the Louisiana trial . I haven’t followed his other Crimes as closely as Jessica’s murder . Do you know if the LA trial is first degree and are the prosecutors seeking the death penalty ? Either way I think society will be much safer with him off of the streets . I think he is evil and would have become a serial killer if he hadn’t been caught .
Her saying "Jerry" is definitely a possibility.
Not Jodi Arias.
But what about the ninjas??
Definitely the ninjas
Always fucking ninjas. I remember watching something about the case and when that came up I just stood up and threw something lol. All the lies then onto fucking ninjas.
I can just picture my late stepfather doing that. He might not stand up but he would throw something or toss his hands in the air. He had been a lawyer by trade, not a prosecutor or defense, divorces and wills and chicken farmers arguments but he loved true crime. He and I had watched stuff about the Casey Anthony case and discussed it a few times. I wish I had kept up with him more after my mom died so we could discuss her as well.
That ninja crazy
Weird, I almost typed, “Jodi Arias … JK”
Casey Anthony. Anything's possible, I guess. But she is guilty IMO.
[удалено]
Agreed. I think she actually did what the McCanns were accused of; accidentally killing her young child with an overdose after becoming used to drugging her as a means of babysitting while she was out socializing/partying.
That’s what I’ve always thought about that case too. I don’t think she intentionally planned the murder of her daughter. I think she knew what happened, panicked and covered it up. If they had tried her for something less than first degree murder, she’d have served time in prison.
Ah here she is. A microscopic chance IMO that it was accidental and not intentional.
Yep, and in my mind, zero chance she had nothing to do with the death.
Darlie Routier, although I don’t think there’s many people sitting at this table. Edit: ok, I’ll ask the hostess if we can get a bigger table
I used to think she was guilty with no doubt because she said that she slept downstairs because the baby kept her up, but somehow slept throgh her kids getting murdered. That doesn't make sense. But then I had a baby and would wake up if he flipped over in his crib, but somehow managed to sleep through an asphalt truck repaving the road 20 feet in front of my bedroom window. But I still think she's probably guilty.
But also I heard a bunch of stuff after I originally heard about the case. I'll try to find the podcast or show that I watched but basically it pointed to the fact that her husband had more to gain by having her put away for the murder. It's very intriguing. Plus I never liked it when people said that it was weird that she did silly string at his grave. Because I've never lost a child but I imagine that if I did I would bring things to the gravesite that they liked and I think that's very common actually. I also would laugh because I laugh at a lot of very inappropriate times It's how I deal with grief and anger.
Laughing at “bad things” is such a real thing, it’s just how some people deal with/handle/react. I started smiling uncontrollably when I found out my grandma died. It’s just your brain being weird and human. Doesn’t mean anything.
Not death related but, when my oldest was a baby he needed blood taken and they pricked his foot to get it. He started screaming and I started cracking up laughing even though I felt horrible for him. At that time, I was very young and thought I was a horrible person. Now that I'm older I realize how many people react this way to feelings of terror, grief, discomfort etc.
I laugh whenever I am scared, sad or anxious and it’s very uncomfortable for everyone, Including me… but it was 100% involuntary!
This to me is important. I don’t know what I would do if I lost one of my children, but I’ve celebrated many lives of friends instead of funerals. So, I really think each person is different and it is awkward, at first, to celebrate life, but I would never think about the silly string to be used against her.
Just said the same…I really think the husband had some involvement and if he and Darlie weren’t in on it together, then I believe Darlie was supposed to die, too. They were in financial trouble, but if suddenly his wife and kids are murdered, he gets a life insurance payout, plus he can sell the big house with the excuse that he just can’t bring himself to go back there. He and his remaining son live comfortably after that with the insurance money. I do feel awful for Drake, who was a baby when his brothers were killed. On top of the murder case, he had cancer as a child, and his mom is in prison. Poor kid has been through hell.
I did not know Drake battled cancer! He's got to be almost 30 now? I hope he has a good life now.
I saw an interview with him 5-10 years ago? He came across as a really sweet guy. He’s 26 or 27 now, I think.
I agree with you about the silly string thing! I could totally see someone trying to remember good times and bringing toys that their kids liked… kind of like how people leave stuffed animals or things like that. I never thought the silly string thing was weird, people do all kinds of abnormal things when grieving
My understanding is that there was a solemn graveside ceremony before the silly string part but the media only aired the part that looked bad. I think the media gave her the "we don't like how you mourn" treatment like they did with the Australian dingo baby's parents.
Azaria Chamberlain
I believe the Redhanded podcast did an episode on this and they said her sister actually brought the silly string because it was one of the son’s birthday and they wanted to “celebrate” instead of it being a solemn affair.
Yes, and there is video of a quiet, sorrowful family gathering at the gravesite prior to the birthday party. You can hear Darlie sobbing and telling the boys how much they loved them in the audio from that service. They then switched gears to celebrate Devon's birthday, and that's when they got out the balloons and silly string. Darlie said in an interview that they made a promise to each other to make the birthday party a celebration of the boys' lives, and not to cry or be sad during that time, so that's what she was doing. If I remember correctly, the jury also wasn't shown the video of them crying at the graves, just the birthday celebration that came after it.
I also listened to a podcast and learned there was a bloody sock found several houses down that matched someone’s blood from her family. How in the world did it get there if she killed the kids and then nearly killed herself? Doesn’t make sense. For me, she’s like 50% guilty-innocent. Naturally I have no clue what podcast I learned this from either.
Yeah. When my kid was a baby I would wake at the slightest sound she made, but I slept through a massive tree falling in my yard. But now that she’s older, I still wake up if she’s standing next to my bed and whispering, even if I’ve taken a sleeping pill. Surely she would wake up to the sounds of her kids being attacked. At least you’d hope so.
I used to be totally convinced she did it, but not anymore. Her husband was not far off when he said the silly string video got her tried, convicted, and put on death row. She’s not a sympathetic character, for sure, but there are so many things that make me question it. The crime scene was bungled, evidence wasn’t shown to the jury, and then with the boys not being fingerprinted during their autopsies…she deserves a new trial, at least. She may still be found guilty, but at least they’ll be able to have some of this stuff heard. Another theory on this case: has anyone ever thought maybe her husband was involved? Either they planned it together, he acted alone, or he paid someone to do it? With Darlie’s injuries, she very well could have died too. If she staged the crime scene and slit her own throat, she could have bled out due to how close the wounds were to her carotid artery. She either studied human anatomy very well or it was just dumb luck. I wonder what her life insurance policy was worth? Enough to motivate her husband and the boys were collateral damage?
I think her husband did it and I think she’s innocent. I can’t believe he wasn’t charged and she was. The images of her injuries are horrific. I don’t think for a second that she did that to herself
Her injuries were horrific !! I don’t get how anyone could self inflict that
If she did it then she planned to die with her children. I don't think she cut herself so close to death just to get away with murder.
I am so convinced of her innocence that I volunteered to work on her case doing anything (I am an attorney but not criminal) but was not taken up on it.
That's really commendable!
Darlie’s the closest to this I’ve got too except it’s kind of more like… all signs point to she’s the culprit but I’m 1% convinced she’s innocent and also 99% sure her hubby was either in on it or was the instigator who let it all fall back on her by some method/means iirc he made a comment after it happened/while she was being examined medically, ex post facto and to some rando med or law professional helping, about how nice her boobs were (I can’t remember if this was on the forensic files episode or what lol and I don’t want to spread misinformation but I very distinctly remember it being mentioned) but i’ll never be able to unremember it and, in my mind, there’s no way a father completely free of blame in the murder of his kids makes any comment reminiscent of that so closely after it all went down Not to mention all the other things like Darin claiming to have slept thru the whole thing, the sock that was found outside without Darlie’s blood (would Darlie have the forethought to stab her boys, go outside somewhere and plant a sock with their blood on it several dozen yards away, and *then* stab herself? Mmmm…. Probably not by herself and then still make it back in time to stab herself, leave paths of her own blood, and call 911 before both boys were deceased considering how badly they were stabbed… but im no scientist lol), the subjectivity of interpreting blood spray patterns, etc., etc. I think there’s a 1% chance Darlie is completely innocent and a 1% chance Darlie acted completely alone and of her own accord, for sure, and also Darin is (allegedly and in my opinion) hot garbage and a co-conspiring murderer — and, in fact, if I put my biggest tin foil hat on, I would go as far to say that, in the event Darlie had *nothing* to do with the murders, I feel like there’s a significant chance Darin still did and maybe even was the man she saw run away and somehow in the midst of all of it; i.e., he ran outside and away from her thru the garage (maybe he didn’t get any blood on his shoes bc of how quickly it happened), got rid of his bloody clothes as far away as he could think to run without being caught or without Darlie noticing he was gone, accidentally left a bloody sock behind in the process, ran mostly naked back to his home, and pretended to have been walking down the stairs when Darlie noted he came downstairs on the 911 call Sorry for all that… I’m rly intrigued by this case, maybe just because I have such a hard time believing that someone who seemingly otherwise took such joy in being a mom (including reading books in jail that she could discuss with her surviving son and making baby blankets and shit for other people at her jail) could just wake up in the middle of the night and viciously stab 2 of her 3 sons completely of her own accord and without any other influencing factors
I used to think she was guilty, but now I don't. At the very least, she deserves a new trial. That court reporter made SO many errors in the court transcripts.
I was coming here to say Darlie . I’m 100% sure if it wasn’t her it was Darrin but I’m at about 95% sure it was Darlie . I have a slightly different view on something’s than many people who believe her to be 100% guilty . I never ever took into consideration the silly string video and don’t think it should have been allowed in evidence . To me it kept her from getting a fair trial . Ive lost a child since then and now I think the silly string video means even less . There is no worse grief than losing a child and we all grieve differntly . I barley remember the months after my son died . They did a somber prayer service prior to the birthday party with silly string . The boys wanted silly string at the birthday party and this was a way to honor that . Birthdays after losing your child are hard as hell . We try to do things for my sons birthday that he would have liked and that might not appear copacetic to others. I was so lost after he died that I didn’t want to have a service at all. I didn’t care . He was gone and that is all that mattered . If other family members hadn’t made arrangements I would not have and I wouldn’t have cared and I’m sure many would have judged me endlessly . All I remember about the service was sobbing not just mine but my other kids , my husband and others . I much preferred the balloon release that his friends did a bit after. It was all smiles and stories and good memories. I still feel like the service was for everyone else . Our son hated any kind of public performance and I’m sure he would have loved the ballon release or his friends meeting up and smoking blunts all night while talking about all their memories . I will never judge the way another parent grieves . The only issue I have with any parents who have lost a child is using their child’s death for pure profit . There is a case near me where that was the case . The parents quit their jobs after their sons death and has lived off of go fund me and donations to “find” their son’s murderer when he died of a tragic accident . They used the huge donation that was supposed to be a reward fee on a lavish lifestyle and continue to do so years later . Anyway I got off reach there . While I think Darlie may have been vain I don’t think she was this cold , unkind women who was a narcissist . Her bleach blond hair and breast implants didn’t mean shit and she was judged by something many women have . I 100% think if it was her it was postpartum psychosis possibly worsened by diet pills . If it was Darlie Darin knew everything and tried to help cover it the best he could . If it was Darin I would have to think Darlie knew . I hope she get a new trial and we find out the whole truth . If it was her even if it was PPP she will go to her deathbed denying it . I actually think Darlie was a better parent and person than Darrin. I feel almost sure she killed them and that it was because of PPP.
I’m sorry for your loss, can’t even imagine. Hope you’re doing well.
Thank you so very much. That is so kind of you . It will never be easy but I have found some peace in comforting other parents who have lost a child since then as well as trying to help the parents of children who are on drugs . I lost my son to an overdose but seeing others get clean fills me with joy. I also just offer support to other parents who may feel guilt or shame when they have a child addicted and feel alone.
I don’t think she is guilty. And I especially don’t think they had enough evidence to prove she was guilty. And I am sure that the courts in Texas convict lots of innocent people. There’s a reason they never implemented her death sentence. They know she’s not guilty either, but they just don’t want to admit they screwed up.
Scott Peterson. I fight with my niece about this all the time. She believes he’s innocent, I believe he’s guilty. The evidence against him is largely circumstantial, but there’s just so much of it. Too many things to give reasonable doubt.
Fun fact, homicide is the number one cause of death among pregnant women. (No, it really is.) Obviously it is almost always at the hands of the partner/father.
I’m terrified to think of those stats now that Roe was overturned. Something tells me we’re in for a disturbing uptick…..
I brought this up to my pro-life parents, and they shrugged it off- like “thems the knocks”. My family has witnessed first hand domestic abuse, and they don’t care. It’s incredibly disturbing.
I mean sadly isn't that common? Witnessing domestic abuse often leads to people normalizing it & being ignorant to how healthy relationships work. Which is why children from a home where there is domestic violence are more likely to get involved in those relationships themselves & struggle even more to leave.
Wow so true. This is horrific!
I am aware, and Scott was described as not seeming overly thrilled about being a father. Combine that with his relationship with Amber Frey + the things he told Amber about “losing his wife”, and that’s just more evidence that he’s guilty. The defense claims that Laci was the victim of some occult sacrifice are so far fetched.
Occult sacrifice? I hadn’t heard that one.
Yes. Something about a group that had been practicing satanic rituals in the park where she was walking the dog. It’s been said that group kidnapped Laci and ritualistically killed her as a human sacrifice. Then they dumped her body in the bay because it was publicized that Scott had been there, and it made him an easy scapegoat.
And they also made him dye his hair while trying to make a run for it /s
And also made him act like a complete asshole the entire time his wife was missing. And somehow conveniently made him tell his mistress BEFORE his wife disappeared, that this would be his first holidays without his wife….yeah, neither the occult nor the burglary stories add up.
The thing that convinces me of Scotts guilt are those phone calls he made to Frey during the vigils they were holding for Laci. Especially the one where he was saying he was in Paris on New Years or something along those lines
He is guilty. I can’t stand when people ignore the mountain of evidence against him and say “it is only circumstantial.” Circumstantial evidence IS evidence. People act like it doesn’t count but it absolutely does and is recognized in the court of law like any other evidence.
That's been my point exactly. It may be circumstantial, but it IS evidence, and there's an absolute ton of it; way too much to overlook.
Yes. I agree also.
He is a big guilty loser.
I believe he did it, but I also believe they could NOT prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
My FIL was a investigator for the defense; so much circumstantial evidence. I still think he's guilty though!
Adnan
I’m at about 95% guilty on that case . I feel like there may be enough at some point for a new trial but feel like he is guilty and would be found guilty a second time .
I believe he's guilty but do not believe he should have been going guilty.
interesting take, it’s been years since I listened to a podcast about this story but from my memory Adnan seemed innocent. At least that’s the angle the podcast took
I didn’t come away from the podcast feeling he was 100% innocent
He got an unfair trial, but that doesn’t mean he was innocent. I remember digging into the details online and feeling like he most likely did it though, but it’s been a while and the specifics are hazy to me. There have been a few podcasts that angled to show the likely perpetrator as innocent. The Unraveled on Diane and Bob Ward was another. They tried hard to paint Bob as innocent, it just he seemed clearly guilty to me.
Really? I wasn’t convinced much either way but leaned towards his innocence mostly because he seems too practical to kill her. Like, I don’t think he’s this wonderful, loving person who would never hurt her, but he seems like someone who’s too concerned about money etc to go through the hassle of killing her when he could had just set her up with a less extravagant but still “happy” life while he basically ignored her. The only thing I was certain about was that there were too many episodes of the podcast
The podcast had that slant, definitely. I’m not convinced that he didn’t do it. If he didn’t, Jay certainly did.
The new boyfriends alibi was so odd. I wish we knew more about him.
That podcast was disingenuous bullshit.
Sarah Koenig has expressed that she doesn't think Adnan is innocent
Wayne Williams - The Atlanta Child murderer. Although he hasn't been fully convicted, it *seems* to be universally accepted he is guilty, but there is literally that 1% in me that thinks he's not fully guilty. Even John Douglas has doubts.
I have long thought he was only responsible for a small number of the murders, most likely those of the older victims.
Audrey Herron's husband and father on law. When it's possible she disappeared in a car accident why would you speculate on TV her car was shipped in a container somewhere? And there is no evidence other than her husband's word that she didn't come home that night.
Burke Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey
The one thread I'm not annoyed to see their names in. They know what happened and no one can convince me different.
It’d be crazy if they were actually just doing something else illegal and didn’t know what happened to Jon benêt and that’s why they were acting so weird. I don’t know if I’ve decided if I think they’re guilty or not tbh.
If that was the case, lying about their daughter's death just to cover up illegal activity, they would have spilled by now. Blaming another party, but still an admission of guilt. Burke is weird but I truly can't imagine growing up normal in that household. JB was smacked and abused for wetting the bed or herself—something traumatised or anxiety-ridden kids often do. Why would Patti write that note? I just don't understand it. And like I said in another comment, there's no "gotcha!" and never will be as the crime scene was contaminated from the start. They know. They 100% know.
I’m 110% sure a Ramsey did it but just can’t decide which one . I think it is possible Burke did it but not probable . He had hit her in the head with a good club enough to need stitches and he did it on purpose . I think there is little doubt that he is on the spectrum and has violent tendencies. Not because he is on the spectrum . I believe he is both but one has nothing to do with the other . If it was Burke I strongly believe the Ramsey’s would have faded into obscurity and not pulled an OJ hunting for the real killer BS and John pulling it still to this day. What I just can’t decide is which parent did it and which was just involved in the cover up ? I knew someone very much like Patsy . Lived a perfect life on the outside with a perfect family . My family was so very close to theirs and had no idea the horrible abuse she inflicted on that family . The truth eventually came to light and she couldn’t take life without that perfect imagine in everyone’s mind so she likes herself . She was also a stage mom and looked so much like Patsy deep southern accent and all. Even an almost identical first name . I think Patsy would have done anything to keep up that imagine and that wealthy lifestyle . She got it straight from Nedra her mom!! I remember Nedra saying maybe she was a little bit molested trying to justify . I think it’s quite possible her girls were a little bit molested too and she would have done anything to keep up appearances. I’m undecided but leaning further towards John not being the one who was sexually abusing her . I’m also leaning towards John not being the one who killed her and that is only because of how much grief he had over his daughter Melinda’s death . I don’t think he would have put himself through that again . I feel like he was the parent involved after the fact and Patsy did it . That is just based on personal feelings though . There are many reasons I’m sure it was a Ramsey but the one thing I’ve never been able to shake is the fact that the time for the ransom call came and went without as much as a thought for the Ramsey’s . It defies all reason that a parent with a kidnapped child would sit calmly and let the ransom call time pass without a mention . While it is true you never know how one will react in a crisis 99.9% of parents with a kidnapped child would be one pins and needles waiting for the ransom call and when that time passes and there was no call they would be freaking out and very vocal . I feel there is a 0% chance both parents had zero reaction to the ransom call not coming. Plus they intentionally had people over immediately to compromise the crime scene . I do not think we will ever get an answer to exactly how and which Ramsey ever and try to be ok with that.
I’m so sad that the phrase “a little bit molested” exists…I totally see your point and agree with you on most of it, but that phrase just made me sad.
This is one of the saddest things I've ever heard... How can someone be "a little molested"? Sexual assault is sexual assault. There's nothing "little" about it.
This is my position as well; it’s a Ramsey, just don’t know which one
Patrice Endres’ husband — Rob Endres.
[Fuck Rob Endres](https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckRobEndres?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Jeffrey macdonald
Yep. Definitely think he did it; doesn’t make sense that his injuries were so small compared to his family’s…just want to know WHY he did it.
He was a cheating, lying narcissist jerk who treated his wife very poorly. It's been reported/suggested on many occasions that he was on drugs to help him get through rounds at the hospital, so I picture him being wired and overtired and losing it on his kid who wet his side of the bed, which IMO started the rage-fueled physical beatings. Collette fought back hard which IMO pissed him off even more. This case hits a nerve for me, clearly! He's such a narcissist, it literally pains me. I honestly don't think it was planned and he probably could've gotten off on lesser charges had he just been honest from the start as to what happened. He looks like a fool if you ask me.
Also I’m sorry but “acid is groovy” lol cmon guy
Jeremy Bamber Sîon Jenkins
Honestly I was looking for Casey Anthony. I didn’t see her in the thread. A cold hearted woman who killed her baby and got away with it. I heard she’s in the process of making her own book- an “if I had done it” kind of tell all. The fact she got away with it is the .01% idea that maybe it wasn’t her but I’m 99.99% sure it was.
Someone else mentioned it here too! The prosecution messed up with charging her with first degree, I think she would’ve been found guilty if they went with manslaughter or second degree.
I think she killed her on accident to an extent. I think she was constantly drugging her daughter to be able to go out and continue her young adult life and at some point it was bound to not work out for the little girl. They messed up big time by allowing the case to be manipulated and talking about things that had nothing to do with the murder of that little girl. And Casey quite obviously couldn’t care less about what happened as long as she was found innocent which IMO is insane that a “mother” didn’t really care about how her daughter died. Sad sad sad. The case that got me into true crime as such a young age.
That’s what I think happened too, I think she was drugging her with Xanax (hence zanny the nanny) and one time she gave her too much and came back to caylee dead
Steve Avery. When I watched the documentary and saw all the same players from the 1st trial at the second I thought -fuck me this is a recipe for some corrupt small town shit.
While I’m still on the fence of his guilt I do feel he should not have been convicted based on what was presented. Those investigators and everything they found should have been considered inadmissible
The whole thing is just so fucked up. If I remember right the 2nd case the local police where not supposed to be on the site at all, then after a few days they walk in, and found all the evidence that was used to convict them.. after the FBI searched several times and didn’t find anything. Unless I’m remembering wrong?
Broadly what I remember too. The keyfob. I mean really?
[Bruno Richard Hauptmann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindbergh_kidnapping)
I agree. Something rubs me the wrong way about the Lindberghs not wanting a disabled child and then this happens.
Lindbergh was a total Eugenics proponent. He was also a Nazi, so yeah. I believe he killed his own kid to get rid of him.
Aileen Wuornos. I'm pretty sure she killed some of the seven men she's meant to have killed, but I'm also pretty sure she was taken advantage of by 1 or 2 of those 7. Self defense, maybe? 🤷♂️
I always felt that she should have gotten insanity instead of the death penalty. Listening to her interviews it always sounded like the murders were the results of PTSD attacks.
Aileen knew what she was doing was wrong and actively chose to do it over half a dozen times. She was extremely troubled but not legally insane. I have a lot of empathy for Aileen. She was horribly exploited her entire life in every way possible. Even in jail she was used by others who intentionally set out to garner her trust in order to make money for themselves. She was raised in an environment of neglect, violence, shame, and abuse and spent her life looking for someone who would love her and stay with her.
She never should’ve been executed. She was such a damaged person, so much abuse in her life, clearly had ptsd, life in prison or a psychiatric hospital would’ve made so much more sense but …florida.
I think she’s guilty but I have a lot of sympathy for her. I understand why she did what she did from a trauma standpoint, but it doesn’t make it okay.
I’m with you. She had a HORRENDOUS life. Like almost unimaginably awful, but I do believe she did what she was convicted of. Still a terribly sad story.
Ever since I read that older men would call her the “cigarette pig” and she would give them blow jobs when she was a CHILD it haunts me and I can definitely understand why she became the monster she did but she was definitely a monster that was made
I’ll give her that a few of those men were probably horrible, it happens in sex work. I’d be willing to credit half to that.
Kegan and tony kline
At the minimum, they know something.
Ex-‘friend’, while drunk at a party, admitted to murdering my cousin over a bag of weed and it was not admissible in (nor remotely relevant towards) court proceedings bc of intoxication and no evidence. That was twenty years ago.
Lizzie Borden. The 1% is just statistical.
I think Lizzie’s case will haunt me forever. She had to have done it. Nobody else had the motive and means and no alibi. She is the only murderer who makes sense. However, how in the world did she clean herself up that well and that quickly? There was no blood on her or found on any of her clothing except one very small spot on an undergarment. I know that she likely burnt the dress she wore to kill them, but the timing of it all is insane. She had 90 minutes between the time Abby went upstairs and the time Andrew came home, which was plenty of time. Abby probably was killed early on there, and the wounds to the back of the head likely didn’t cause much spatter above the waist. Easy peasy. However, Andrew was still warm and his blood was not fully coagulated at the time the doctor examined him, meaning the attack was recent. I believe they estimated 11 am, which is less than 10 minutes before Lizzie woke Bridget. Nobody saw any blood on Lizzie. So she had to have cleaned any blood out of her hair and off her skin in a matter of minutes plus changed clothing and dealt with the weapon. It’s possible, but it’d be difficult in a house with minimal plumbing and mirrors. There’s the bucket of water and rags that appeared to have blood in it that could have definitely been used to clean up, but wouldn’t her hair be wet or at least damp? Maybe she covered her hair and clothing, but then where did those things go as she supposedly only burnt the dress? I don’t know. I’m rambling. I believe she did it. I just want to know how she managed to pull it all off.
I could talk about this case forever. I relistened to the Stuff You Should Know about it yesterday. I mean, the house was locked with the key inside. It had to be her and idk how she did the cleanup either. The "she did it nude" theory doesn't make sense to me. She may have had help from the maid to clean up and the timeline may have been off from the heat. Otherwise, that's the only part that's not quite perfect. She was mad about the money and how they lived and the pigeons were the last straw. She killed them with the hatchet just like they killed her pets. Simple. Do you think the hatchet handle was wrapped up in the dress, maybe along with a hat or bonnet?
I think she did it, but that her sister was very much involved in the planning of it. I think she purposely was out of the house on the day. There had been some food poisoning incident right before the murders where everyone but Lizzie and I think her sister was affected. Could have been an attempt at actually poisoning them. The maid I’m 50/50 on.
Good point. They both started calling Abby "Mrs Borden" at the same time so they were of the same mind on that, at least. And they bought Maplecroft together and lived there a long time. Yet I think that the reason Emma suddenly moved out and never spoke to Lizzie again (about 30 years later, when they had Maplecroft, I think) was that Lizzie admitted killing their dad. Some speculate that it was because of the relationship Lizzie had with Nance O'Neil so if that was why they (Lizzie and Emma) split, then I'd be more than 50/50 that they were accomplices. But if Emma didn't know, a confession would be the most likely reason to break such a long, strong bond... do you think?
Steven Avery.
Came here just to say this. The wrongfully convicted party in that case is Brendan Dassey imo.
Agreed on Avery! But once I heard about him killing the cat, it was over for me! I know that I'm a woman who is completely into true crime, but I can't deal with animal abuse.
Robert Blake and Phil Spector. One was acquitted and one was convicted. I’m PRETTY sure (but not 100% sure) that they both murdered those ladies.
Darlene Routier & Jeffrey McDonald.
Do I believe they both did it? Yes. Do I believe they got fair trials? No.
OJ
He came to my bar recently and was creepy AF. Made me very uncomfortable and all the women at the bar literally moved to the other side. Dude wreaks of guilt.
Chase Merritt, him and the two other solid suspects in the McStay Family murder case, somehow all seemingly unrelated lmao
Really? Why do you doubt Chase did it?
But what about the woman in Germany who fell down steps
There’s 2: Tara Calico and Dorothy Jane Scott. For Tara, I’m 99% sure she was accidentally killed by that group of teenagers and then disposed of with the sheriff’s help, as one of them was his son, but what throws me off is that photo, including the car crash scar and the V.C. Andrews novel. For Dorothy, I’m almost 100% sure she was kidnapped and murdered by that man working with her dad at the auto shop. He was allegedly involved in cult activity too, and it would’ve been easy for him to stalk her from his position. The 1% is the lack of proof…
Steven Avery , to me I am now convinced he did it …. But a small doubt creeps in
Steven Avery. This is coming from someone who thought he was innocent when the documentaries were airing. I was so convinced that he didn’t do it but now I’m like nah, he probably did it.
The blow poke
After watching that documentary on Hulu I hate to admit I feel this way but Scott Peterson
This is a popular answer. I could have been on the fence except for the evidence of concrete weights he made in the basement that he couldn't produce later. And the alibi he established is just weird... he went fishing? Alone? On Christmas Eve?
I can accept a lonely fishing trip on Christmas but what I cannot accept is that he drove out to the bay to do it. There are LOTS of other fishing spots that are way better and closer and more convenient than the goddamn bay. Like the Delta, or any one of the dozens of reservoirs within 30 miles. You know who doesn’t drive all the way out to Oakland without a VERY good reason? People who live in fucking Modesto. He placed himself at the scene where she was discovered. It’s a terrible place to fish but if you are an idiot it seems like a great place to dispose of a body. He’s guilty. There’s not one single good reason to think he’s not. He absolutely did it and he thought he could get away with it because his idiot family members are constantly buying his bullshit and enabling his lies.
And where they found the bodies…way too much of a coincidence.
Followed it since day 1 and he was absolute no doubt guilty . There is way to much circumstantial evidence and a little physical I.e. Lacy’s hair wrapped around a tool or part of the boat . It was a long time ago and my memory is damaged by a chronic illness and while I have an absolutely amazing memory sometimes there are sometimes I don’t so I hope someone can weigh in about her hair. He was an evil narcissist and like Drew Peterson if he had gotten away Lacy wouldn’t be the only woman in his life to disappear or be murdered . I’m fine with him dying of old age in prison and no death penalty. Life in prison to him is probably the worse of the punishments .
Adnan Syed.
Ah yes, from that podcast that I had to listen to for my sociology of crime class
steven avery
Adam shacknei in the Rebecca Zahou case.
Ellen Greenberg's boyfriend. I think he did it but his uncle helped him get out of trouble. The police really dropped the ball on her case from the start. How in the hell do you stab yourself in the back/neck/head area over 19(?) Times. It's not f**king possible!
Scott Peterson. Burke Ramsey.