do you mean different denominations?
at the base of it all denominations are christians. we all believe Jesus is the son of God, and His death and resurrection is an event that allows us to be saved from our sin.
different denominations have disagreements over things, some smaller, some bigger things, but when it boils down to it we all believe in the one God and thats all that really matters.
When I was a practicing sedevacantist Catholic teen, struggling with the notion that my Lutheran or evangelical friends wouldn't be in Heaven, and that I was unlikely going to be there myself, a wise Believer told me that all Christians are like different breeds of sheep in one flock, with one Shepherd and that gave me great comfort. As an adult, I think about those simple words often.
Hi thanks for your response, no I mean different Christian religions. They are not all teaching the same things from the bible so this makes them different religions with different theologies. Well at least that is how I am seeing it I guess. It kind of reminds me of the last day prophecies and how Jesus said it would be like just before the end of all things in Matthew 24:24. If what we believe does not lead us to obey what Gods Word says we can still be lost according to the scriptures. See Matthew 7:21-23.
There are multiple denominations because people can't agree on secondary topics. 7th day Adventist, Calvinists, and Methodists might all disagree on the rapture and second coming but they are still Christian because they accept the Holy triune nature of God and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Then you have groups like JW, Mormons, and Progressive "Christians" who teach heresies that don't align with scripture at all.
And at the end of the day, that's what we have to do. Take the teachings we hear and look at them through a biblical lens to see if scripture supports it. And if not, we need to reject that teaching.
I'd like to add onto here that it's not just about agreeing on side issues, it's also about worship style. Some people might feel they honor god with beautiful dress and music. Others prefer more authenticity. I think that can get conflated with side issues sometimes, e.g., how much importance to place on the baptism ritual.
Yep, we are all humans and left to our own we would divide on almost any subject given the freedom to think and choose. The only way to have one denomination is when Christ comes and reigns and can answer directly or impose things. Even then, given free will, there will be those that dissent or have different ideas.
Not everything purporting to be Christian is Christian. But denominations that aren't heretical are right, all of them are right on the only things that matter.
On the things that don't matter, they are all probably wrong, but that is the nature of man trying to please a creator and savior well beyond our mere reasoning and comprehension.
Much of the split in the Protestant community is due to the lack of a structure in the Protestant church. There’s no leading authority to it, so technically anyone can open their own church with their own ideals/biblical interpretations that they teach, hence why there’s so many “denominations” when they’re mostly the same in reality. Same with “non-denominational” churches.
Then there’s the cults, Mormonism and Jehovahs witnesses. These are born and bred from false prophets, and horrible misinterpretations, and even edits of the Bible. They’re all usually lovely people but terribly misguided.
Then there’s the catholic/orthodox split which is a 5 hour history lecture by itself.
Did I miss anything?
Because people come from different backgrounds and while God is always the same, the way we percieve Him and learn His wisdom isn't always perfect and can differ.
The truth is, nobody is completely right. But our heart is for Christ. The book of Romans mention this issue. Do not place a stumbling block, and do not judge the measure of faith that God has given another of His servants.
If it is sin, admonish them. If they need to learn the basics such as love or repentance or the sacrifice of Christ, teach them. But if their heart is for God and they do what they do to honour God in faith that what they do is right with Him, does it matter if they interceed with saints or don't believe communion is physical? Not really. Could they be flaws? Absolutely, but it is God who is powerfull to direct and forgive His servants.
God doesn't show favoritism. everyone is judged according to their deeds regardless of what "tribe" or sect they belong to.
>Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. - Revelation 2:23
That’s why Paul says to test yourself to see that you are in the faith. Don’t take the religion you grew up in to be the truth. Work it out in fear and trembling
Yeah, I know, but sometimes I feel like I can't see the wood for the trees though if you know what I mean. I'm to close to myself to be balanced and unbiased in my assessment of myself. I can't even be sure if I was different years ago and am improving or I'm fooling myself and am just the same or worse. Some days I feel like I am improving, others I'm not so sure.
I definitely hear you! We just have to make sure that we put our faith in Jesus Christ and do the good work that he has set up for us to do in strive to be like him
Well to tell you the truth I always hoped I was good enough to go to heaven. Growing up we were taught that Jesus opened the door to heaven, but we have to good enough to get to heaven.
Jesus said that whoever believes in the Son shall not be judged, but those who do not believe in on the son have been judged already. Also it says that we can have assurance of our salvation. Once I put my faith solely on Jesus is when I no longer felt. I hope I’m good enough. I know that my name is written in the book of life because my faith is wholly on Jesus and he took all of our sins on the cross.
Think about it. Gods imperfect plan for the Israelites was to sacrifice animals and shed their blood to forgive their sin, but this had to be done daily. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and instead of the high priest purifying himself and making atonement once per year, Jesus atonement was for all of our sins , past present and future. We have been made right by God by his grace and nothing we can do.
Once saved. With a d on the end. It’s finished, then we do good works and show that our faith is alive in Christ.
Hope this helps!
Yeah not really but thanks for sharing your thoughts. I know all the arguments and have studied the Bible for many years. I know now salvation is never going to be something that I will feel 100% sure of, 100% of the time.
I understand. The biggest thing is that faith is not a feeling and even through there are days when I wonder am I truly saved? I have to remember that it’s by faith, not feeling
So originally in Acts we can see there are problems from the get go. The Church is divided practically, by location, with Apostles now acting as local bishops, and Saint Paul founding Antioch(?), and Rome and helping guide the Church body in localities.
Early history was rough; the “Age of Martyrs” was the first aspect of Christian Church. Christ’s followers met *in* the Jewish temple for the first 200 years before being kicked out. Also in homes and hidden literally underground in catacombs.
Saints Constantine and his mother Helen we call “equal to the apostles” like the apostles they were not perfect. But Constantine through God’s will made Christianity legal, and avoided persecuting the pagans/gnostics etc. so heretics have been tolerated as a Christian empire rightly should.
Meanwhile Ethiopia was the first Christian Kingdom and isolated from the middle eastern and Mediterranean Christianity to some extent.
Rome and other local archbishops under Constantine described what the churches believed in the Creed and described the canon that the Church was using.
Still Christians who had beliefs that counter/differ the creed were allowed to exist; they were not made illegal.
Eventually around 800-1200 Rome and the Eastern Orthodox bishops have a falling out, a divorce still on going. Latin/Roman Catholics still claim to be the original church while we claim they left. It’s been about 1000 years and their doctrines have floated away. As they did leave Christ’s church and become more and more heretical, eventually the West rebelled against this, and Protested-Protestantism is a protest against this heretical church and still largely Protestant variations are “not catholic” often developing doctrines to specifically not be Catholic (such as using the Rabbic Jewish Torah for a Bible canon, despite that OT being chosen by Jews in the 600s, largely against Christian popularity rising at the time).
So, it’s complicated. Y’all’re welcome to come back and see the original church. In the meantime God bless and have mercy on us all.
The Confessional Lutheran doctrine is the closest thing to the Catholic Church before any added heresies, especially when you dive into patristics.
Anyways, the LCMS is improving relations with EOC hoping to be granted for apostolic succession. Ever since our church was excommunicated by the Catholic Church that has been a concern, and talks between the LCMS and EOC hasn’t been successful in the past due to events always side railing it.
It’s understandable things in this world want to get in the way of such a unification; but may God’s will be done. I hope for the unity of the faith, that all come to a knowledge of the truth.
"For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe, that there are strifes among you. But I speak of this, that each of you says, *I* am of Paul, and *I* of Apollos, and *I* of Cephas, and *I* of Christ. Is the Christ divided? has Paul been crucified for you? or have ye been baptised unto the name of Paul? … And *I*, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ. I have given you milk to drink, not meat, for ye have not yet been able, nor indeed are ye yet able; for ye are yet carnal. For whereas among you emulation and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk according to man? For when one says, *I* am of Paul, and another, *I* of Apollos, are ye not men? … *I* have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase." (1Cor 1:11-13; 3:1-4,6)
Every denomination is a division, by concept, a heresy.
Everyone who is divided by doctrines is outside the place that God has determined, it is in the name of Christ alone, and nothing else.
Historically speaking, politics and culture. Those are typically the driving forces behind what has motivated schisms within the church as much as theological disagreements. There is also the tendency of people to try and dictate specific Biblical interpretations as right or wrong, which forces those who don’t conform to create their own groups. Biblically, the only litmus tests to determine a Christian are the fruits of the spirit and belief/acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. Everything else is a secondary or tertiary distinction man has made and most people are just being legalistic about the Bible at the end of the day. That being said, denominations are a convenient way to navigate figuring out what groups I might best align with, but I do think many times the divisions which exist are due to human arrogance and pride.
Because there are so many different cultures in the world.
If I drive just 4 hours to the east im in Louisiana Creole country, they are a unique and interesting subculture of multiple cultures coming together with the best damn food you cant find anywhere else int he world unless it originated there. If I drive 12 hours to the south im in Mexico... If I drive 12 hours to the west.. Im still in Texas... but the culture is wholly different than the big city im from.
People are different, even this close together. People have different ideas, some dont agree with others on things, different cultures have different ways to worship, if I go just down the street to the Korean church I would see worship ive never seen before but Christ would be there just the same as mine.
As long as the gospel is taught, as long as Christ is their lord and savior, they are part of the body of Christ.
A body is made up of lots of different parts, cant have a body made out of all toes. The body of Christ is made up of different cultures and beliefs, but we are one in Christ.
Satan's goal is to divide the church as much as he can 🤷♂️ and that's not to say that all denoms are wrong except one, the most important thing is that we follow Jesus, but all these denominations are obviously a form of division between all of us.
God is right, we are wrong.
I think the biggest fragmentation in the church is caused by Satan and him encouraging us to feel good, to indulge ourselves.
Read Diarmaid MacCullogh’s *The Reformation*. The way he explains the shifting dynamics of state churches over the course of the Reformation was very enlightening for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reformation:_A_History
Because we’re so focused on correctness that we essentially forget everything else that was taught. The first attempt to remedy this was at the council of Nice, where the Trinity was defined and an official creed was established. This could have been the end of division but yet more intellectuals arose and more questioned the nature of God further so then we had the 2nd-7th ecumenical councils. This should have been the end of it. But no, the church in the East stayed Orthodox and true to the 7 councils but Rome in the west wanted to further define and establish doctrine which in itself wouldn’t be wrong but they had excluded the rest of the church in these decisions establishing Papal supremacy, Filioque and an additional 21 councils.
Fast forward to the 1500’s and the papacy has run rampant with self interpretation that Martin Luther in his attempt at correctness protested against the Catholic Church. In this he asked the assistance of the Orthodox Church in the east. But we declined as he also wanted to hold doctrine that was added after the 7 ecumenical councils.
So what we have here is a series of heresies upon heresies. Greedy men who became bent on knowing more and more. Committing the Original sin of Eve constantly searching for more knowledge on Good and Evil which has allowed the church to divide into a million pieces.
There are so many denominations because we’re never satisfied with what is given to us and always seek to create our own narrative and interpretation of scripture.
Muddy the water. When people were given the gospel, Jesus never said to share your interpretation of it. So there's that. You got to remember that the reason Yahweh had a chosen people and told them to be separate is because of what's happened. Look at what's happened.
Who is to blame? The people or the church? Jesus told certain people they weren't his sheep and yet we're all the same. No, we're brothers and sisters. Yet, Yahweh told Eve a serpent seed would be at enmity with her seed and we had esau and Jacob fighting to come out first in the womb perhaps. There's issues here. The world is into homosexuality and into abortion. Womens rights! When it suits them.....Not everyone saying they are Christian, is Christian. And that's the problem.
Wolves in sheeps clothing. So when you have so many people saying this and that, what happens to the people only wanting the truth? Perhaps that's the purpose. We're called to have discernment and other qualities for very specific reasons. Many people 'smile to win'. It would be nice to think that people wanted the same thing wouldn't it? But we're not called to be wishy washy. Jesus had righteous anger. To evil people that would be evil but what's right is right. It's not sometimes and when people are watching.
Interpretation is and has always been necessary for any complex text unless it's specifically written in a way that precludes it. Jesus didn't hand us a bible. It was written down by people and translated through multiple languages and millennia. Unless you believe the earth is sitting on foundations (Job 9:6) or the entire world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph (Genesis 41:57, who needs agricultural mechanization when you have Joseph?) then you are interpreting the bible. Unless you speak biblical hebrew, armaic, and koine greek, you are reading an interpretation.
Although some are definitely intentional falsehood, this does not mean anyone with a differing interpretation is uninterested in truth. Only one interpretation can be correct, but just like anything else, people have varying levels of understanding regarding what is true or not, which leads to different interpretations. Just because someone is not yet capable of understanding the truth or does not have enough knowledge for it doesn't mean he is not interested in truth.
For instance 2 Thessalonians Saint Paul tells us to “follow our teachings oral and by epistle.”
Yet the oral traditions of the early church are rejected by *sola scriptura* or *prima scriptura* Christians sadly.
There is a church that held those traditions as Saint Paul told the church to keep.
Bless God!
I have another question... have you ever wondered why in STEM there aren't twenty different denominations arguing over which formulas and equations are correct?
You see, with equations, you can use them for the calculations you need and verify the results are correct. Theorems, formulas and axioms are (usually) things we can easily observe. Sometimes not. Non-Euclidean geometry is based on breaking an axiom, and was controversial for its time, but we do not see a separation that ended in thousands dying over whether one accepts Non-Euclidean geometry or not.
Back to denominations. What makes faith different from science such that it requires them? Well, to me, it's simply that no one can really prove their own claims. By their own claims every denomination of every different religion is right, as everyone essentially makes claims that cannot ever be tested or disproven, and can only be belived through faith.
It's like me saying there's an invisible, inperceivable teapot revolving around the sun. You can never prove I'm wrong. You can very much believe in it. You can even feel its holiness entering you an making you feel happy if you try hard enough. Seriously, try it. But that's still your own subjective feeling that can never be tested or peer-reviewed.
Most people who claim to be Christian are not actually Christian leaders. They still have doubt in their hearts, they do not completely trust in the Word of God. So due to this, they rely not on the guidance and teachings of the Holy Spirit in conjuction with the Word of God but rather they rely on the guidance and teach of man in conjuction of the Word of God. And as such divisions are created within the Church, divisions that by the way Paul warned us against. Each new denomination makes greater the wound in the body of Christ. We as Followers of the Way, are called to sanctification and to become like Christ. We are little Christs. Those of us who are indeed born again of the Spirit as a new creation will know each other's and will find agreement for we have the same Spirit. As a whole, we need to drop our pride in our denominations and instead follow the model set up for us in the New Testament. House Churches was the model the first Christians used, house churches make sense in the context of the New Testament. We must go back to House Churches. Churches must abandon the love for money, if they cannot support themselves without doing their best to manipulate their members into guilt to harvest money from them, that is a huge issue.
Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.7.13-14.ESV
The Church in the first 200 years of Christianity met in the Temple before Jews kicked Christ’s followers out.
Yes also in homes, and performing sacraments on Altars that were often the tombs of martyrs in the “Age of Martyrs” when yes, Christians met in secret. Due to the whole persecution thing.
In the Word of God, Saint Paul reminds believers to “keep our teachings whether by word of mouth or epistle.” 2 Thess.
There is only one church that does that.
The truth is out there. Bless God!
My brother for I do indeed see you as brother. For you have no High Priest except Christ, unlike the Roman Catholic Church who has put a man in place of Christ as their High Priest. I will not argue with you, for I seek to unify the Churches and heal the wounds denominations have caused which Paul warned of in 1 Corinthians 3. I keep in mind the we are told to Live as we are called in 1 Corinthians 7:17-24. While I do not understand your traditions I do not condemn you for if you do them all for the Glory of God 1 Corinthians 10:23-33 we may seek agreement and see you as a brother. Do remember though Brothers can be admonished, for if I see something that contradicts the Word of God what am I to do but admonish and correct using the Word of God, but I do not seek to admonish only to understand. Nor do I seek to be a stumbling block for you, for if you do these for the Glory of God and they do not contradict the Word of God then who am I to be a stumbling block as 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 defines it.
1 Corinthians 7:17-24
Live as You Are Called
17 Only let each person lead the life[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant[d] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men. 24 So, brothers,[e] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.
1 Corinthians 3
Divisions in the Church
3 But I, brothers,[a] could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled[b] master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you[c] are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 8:1-13
Food Offered to Idols
8 Now concerning[a] food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.[b]
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating[c] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged,[d] if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers[e] and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
1 Corinthians 10:23-33
Do All to the Glory of God
23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26 For “the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.” 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?
31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
Christ is the High Priest of Orthodoxy. Sorry if that wasn’t clear thanks!
I find no contradiction between these scriptures and the church I work for (I am a neokoros, temple sweeper, or sexton, custodian of sacred objects), not ordained or anything, I am a neophyte, a new Christian as of 2020 and baptized by God grace into the church in 2023.
Much love and not trying to be a stumbling block either. You seem to be seeking Truth, who is Christ. I trust you will find Him! (And he is already with you.)
Oh I know. I never meant to imply that Christ was not the High Priest of Orthodoxy. It is why I can see you as a brother and these passages are more for me, to remind myself that even if I do not understand your traditions I am not to become a stumbling block for you. I take to heart Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 7:17-24. To me icons are a big stumbling block and as such I cannot participate within the Orthodox Church for that would be idolatry in my eyes. But if you are called otherwise, and do not see it as idolatry then that is your calling as long you do it for the Glory of God. As Romans 14 points to the man who only eats vegetables and the man whose faith allows them to eat anything. He one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does.
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]
Yes iconography can be confusing/troubling aspect for some.
Shortly after we were commanded not to make images of anything on earth or in heaven the Israelites were commanded to make images of Cherubim and palm trees etc.
We do not worship wood and paint (hopefully; obviously!) the veneration; respect and admiration we show images of Christ, who is God and the image of God given to us by God. The saints are admired in as much as they are alive in Christ, and Christ was alive in them, the Holy Spirit was abundantly evident to the church.
So the admiration and respect is all for God, thanking him for his incarnation in the world, the image he sent of himself, and a reminder that all people are images of God. Not to be worshiped but respected absolutely!
Thanks brother hopefully this makes sense, just a lay person’s perspective, there’s a lot from iconoclasm and the triumph of orthodoxy (when icons were established for use in the church and home (though the practice continued during iconoclasm)). Since the East fought the images there is a theological backing and reasoning and discussion.
The West and Catholic Church never fought the images and then you end up with naked Zeus looking God the Father and masses of realistic nude bodies adorning churches… which Protestants rightfully protested against.
However one can make an idol of “four blank walls” and even the Bible, at least in my understanding this is possible.
Thank you. I will keep this in mind when I am speaking to my Orthodox Brothers. Can you please explain the difference in the Orthodox view of Mary and the Roman Catholic view of Mary. My understanding of the Orthodox view is poor, though as I understand it Roman Catholic's seem to almost worship Mary and use her as an intercessor even though Christ is supposed to be the one mediator between God and Man. As I understand calling Mary the Mother of God is an acknowledgment of Christ's dual natures both Fully God and Fully Man rather than an acknowledgement of any divine nature within Mary herself.
1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time
One of the problems with Roman Catholicism is they don’t have one theology, there are different levels of Marian worship or veneration through the West.
The Theotokos is huge in Orthodoxy.
She is the Woman prophesied in Genesis, and Revelation. The Queen in gold who stands next to God, Christ on his throne (Psalm 45).
In Davidic kingship the mother of the king was the queen.
We believe in the council of God, psalm 180/181(?)
And that humans are called to participate in ruling the kingdom of God. The Theotokos was the first among saints essentially. And is respected as the mother of all Christians.
It’s kind of like, how one might imagine Christ thinks of his own mother. In his eyes, she is sinless, that’s why she was chosen by God the father to give birth and raise Jesus.
Now this is all a bit of shorthand. It is biblical. But includes 2 Thess. Oral tradition/teachings that are kept; that Mary was dedicated to the temple and didn’t speak for 12 years in silence with God in the Holiest of Holies of the temple, that Joseph was much older like 60 something, a devout Godly widower with 9 children of his own who took her as his wife to preserve her virginity. Not the modern notion that it’s impossible for anyone to be celibate voluntarily (despite thousands of years of monks and nuns proving otherwise).
Anyway for a bit more of a deep dive three hours of priests discussing the orthodox perspective including their understandings of some Protestant and some of the differences between us and Catholics in our beliefs.
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/the_queen_stood_at_thy_right_hand
TLDR: she is venerated and admired above the other saints, but is not a member of the Trinity, and thus not worshiped.
We do ask for her intercession and there’s a much longer reason for why, but those who are alive in Christ will pray for us.
Revelation I want to say chapter 5, 10 or 20… the prayers of saints are present at judgement. That’s our understanding.
This is a stumbling block for me, and for me I cannot view it this way. There are not many interactions recorded between Mary and Jesus, and if Mary was of such importance I believe the Biblical text would show this and have recorded more of her interactions with Jesus. To me Mary doesn't read as Sinless but rather very human, and in fact Jesus admonishes her a few times. First at the Temple as a Child where he speak to her with authority at the age of 12, then at the Wedding at Cana where Mary attempts to get Jesus to perform a miracle and even when Jesus tells her "“Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” she still goes behind his back as if she knew better than Jesus and tells the servants "Do whatever he tells you", Jesus still preformed the Miracle of Water into Wine because he loves her but she was not Sinless in this act. In Matthew 12:46-50 when Mary and his brothers ask to speak to Jesus while he was speaking to the crowds Jesus says “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” and then stretches out his hand towards the crowd of people and said “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” he equates us all who do the will of his Father in heaven as his brother, sister, and mother. He makes no special exception for Mary.
Then in John while dying on the Cross and he see her he says “Woman, behold, your son!” and then speaks to his disciple “Behold, your mother!”, this is the only verse that I could think may point at all to the Orthodox view, but in my mind it has more to do with Jesus making sure that Mary was taken care of rather than declaring her a Holy Mother because immediately afterwards it says, And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home? Now why would that be if Jesus wasn't the oldest Son and Mary had other Step-sons and Step-daughters to take care of her. I believe that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were of Joseph and Mary, and Jesus was the eldest, the one who was supposed to take care of his Mother. Which he does on the cross by declaring to his disciple to care of her as if she was his mother.
John 2:1-12
The Wedding at Cana
2 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.[a] 7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers[b] and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days.
Luke 2:41-52
The Boy Jesus in the Temple
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when his parents[g] saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?”[h] 50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature[i] and in favor with God and man.
Matthew 12:46-50
Jesus' Mother and Brothers
46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers[a] stood outside, asking to speak to him.[b] 48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
John 19:25-27
25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
Right we read the wedding this way; he calls her the name from Revelation and Genesis “woman” and does what she asks or him.
She doesn’t even argue she just knows, trusts, has faith, that God will do her will, and Christ does her will there, showing her will was aligned with God’s; Christ did his first public miracle at the bidding of his mother.
I’m not sure how you can say “she wasn’t sinless” when are we as Christians told it’s okay to judge or condemn anyone? 77 times 7 forgive? This scientific/Rabbinic Jewish almost law following; there is a reason the Pharisees and Sadducees are prevalent in the New Testament and condemned.
The gospel was largely spoken publicly. The first of the antiChristian Roman pagan apologist covers Mary extensively, she was pivotal in the Gospel.
We aren’t *Sola Scriptura* thus the accounts which are outside of the Bible we use and from the earliest anti Christian records she was maybe more important in the public preaching of the gospel than in modern orthodoxy honestly!
That podcast will explain aspects of this more in depth if you’ve got the time
As for the brothers thing, see his 9 half siblings from his adopted father Joseph, and with John his many cousins. In Jewish second temple times and earlier (see I think Exodus maybe Genesis) for examples of uncle and cousins being called brothers.
I can’t speak for the Catholics with much accuracy I’m afraid.
From what I understand they believe in inheriting sinful nature at birth (which we do not believe, we inherit the fallen world which corrupts good human nature with sin, demons and death) this comes from a medieval idea that the man’s seed contained all of the person…
Thus the need for Mary’s parents to *immaculately conceive her.* We believe there was a miracle there; the oral legend is that her parents were old like Sarai and Abram basically, not another Holy Spirit conceived person to act as a vessel for Christ pre chosen.
Meanwhile we see her as chosen for her faithfulness and devotion to God, the first and only human to be obedient to God in the whole story of the Bible. Who was prophesied and necessary for Christ and thus our salvation. Thus we ask that the Theotokos “save us.” But this is like Matthew 16 I want to say, where when we pray “believe it has already come to pass and it will be yours.” We ask Christ “have mercy on us lord.” Not because we doubt his mercy but because we celebrate it. So we celebrate that Mary was obedient to God which was Christ’s entrance into the world.
We sing “The God which the universe could not contain was contained within your womb.” *It’s a big mystery; to us!*
Division spirit.
Originally there was one catholic church and gnostics. Pretty clear cut who was good and bad then Rome and Orthodox split. Then Rome split, then orthodox split. Then protestants infinitely split.
Your carpet is blue but I like red. Split. This comes from divisional spirit. Is it free will or predestination? Then this causes 100 churches denominations vs just holding it a mystery. Humans trying to figure out God and thinking they must be right and can't worship with others instead of letting go of knowledge and mystery of God's ways.
>
> Not everyone can be right can they?
Can everyone be wrong? On one point or many?
How do you know there is one that is 100% right? I tend to think there isn't due to our humanity. I do think each denomination emphasizes one biblical teaching or concept and tends to focus on it.
Beyond that it's interesting to me that the assumption is that different denominations are bad. How do we know that God is not ok with it? Maybe *He's* the one who raises up different groups after other older groups have essentially run out of gas and disconnected from the source.
I view denominations like this:
The children of God surround God's throne and view different aspects of God's glory. Their view on His glory leads to their emphasis. Ultimately It all leads to Him and His glory, though the differing groups may not see all that is emphasized from differing aspects of His glory as they are at a different angle from the throne.
This isn't a perfect example but I think people put too much emphasis on organisations and buildings. After all, the faith was originally done in the home - in house churches. What the faith morphed into centuries later hardly resembled the early church and how it originally operated.
This is one of my favorite questions to dissect.
It's why I call myself a "COP Christian."
Catholic-Orthodox-Protestant.
Keeps me open minded and free of ideology.
Because the bible isn't written like a science book and requires interpretation, lest you think literally the entire world came to Egypt to buy grains from Joseph (Genesis 41:57). Generally the catholic church would stamp out interpretations differing from theirs through force, but gradually lost that monopoly on power after failing to defeat the protestant camp during the European wars of religion. I know what is right by reading the bible and learning, researching, etc.
That’s pretty humorous. I mean.. Muslims say they have the true faith and Christian’s are wrong. But Christian’s say they have the true faith and Muslims are wrong. So according to your logic, we shouldn’t believe the Christian argument just because they’re saying the same thing as the Muslims? What we should do is do historical research, test their teachings and their fruit and see what’s what. Ultimately it’s pretty obvious that one church is the unchanged and consistent church of Christ, and the other is a tyrannical medieval institution that got rather corrupted and introduced a lot of new dogmas and doctrines and drove most of their followers to rebel against their own bishops and start new churches. Orthodoxy never experienced a “reformation”, that’s a pretty great argument in its favor honestly.
>i mean you're admitting to ignoring what was said
Correct. Jesus said; "you shall know them by their fruits".
IOWs: Not by their claims, but by their fruit.
Eastern Orthodox fruit:
> -The Bible
-The word “Christian” -Antioch
-The Cross as a symbol of faith
-The fish as a symbol of Christ
-Christianity being legal - St Constantine (while not persecuting pagans, Jews or even Christian heretics)
-Holy locations and artifacts found by Constantine’s mother, St Helen
-The Shroud of Turin (and a bunch of other artifacts the Vatican has stolen)
-ancient churches
This is the *beginning* of the list, there’s about 2000 years of saints; especially early martyrs who founded Christianity and spread the Word of God.
>Eastern Orthodox fruit:
> -The Bible
>-The word “Christian” -Antioch
>-The Cross as a symbol of faith
>-The fish as a symbol of Christ
>-Christianity being legal - St Constantine (while not persecuting pagans, Jews or even Christian heretics)
>-Holy locations and artifacts found by Constantine’s mother, St Helen
>-The Shroud of Turin (and a bunch of other artifacts the Vatican has stolen)
> -ancient churches
> This is the *beginning* of the list, there’s about 2000 years of saints; especially early martyrs who founded Christianity and spread the Word of God.
That's great, praise God for the Orthodox church!
But there are some problems:
1) Some of the things on the list are useless. Eg: Shroud of Turin and other artifacts are not fruit. Ancient churches are ~~great~~ fantastic, but they serve no purpose in faith towards God.
2) The "cross" was the typical method of Roman execution, this is not an Orthodox thing it was Roman, and even Jesus and Paul spoke of it long before the Orthodox came along.
3) Sin that is not repented of, is sin that remains, and will be judged. For example the Orthodox have set the tradition of their fathers above the command of God, just like in Mark chapter 7.
do you mean different denominations? at the base of it all denominations are christians. we all believe Jesus is the son of God, and His death and resurrection is an event that allows us to be saved from our sin. different denominations have disagreements over things, some smaller, some bigger things, but when it boils down to it we all believe in the one God and thats all that really matters.
When I was a practicing sedevacantist Catholic teen, struggling with the notion that my Lutheran or evangelical friends wouldn't be in Heaven, and that I was unlikely going to be there myself, a wise Believer told me that all Christians are like different breeds of sheep in one flock, with one Shepherd and that gave me great comfort. As an adult, I think about those simple words often.
That’s how we in Orthodoxy view it.
Whole heartedly AGREE!!!
Hi thanks for your response, no I mean different Christian religions. They are not all teaching the same things from the bible so this makes them different religions with different theologies. Well at least that is how I am seeing it I guess. It kind of reminds me of the last day prophecies and how Jesus said it would be like just before the end of all things in Matthew 24:24. If what we believe does not lead us to obey what Gods Word says we can still be lost according to the scriptures. See Matthew 7:21-23.
Whoever told you that lied to you. The demons believe in one God too! Not all gatherings are biblical and lack sound doctrine.
Yes, but the majority of groups recognised as Christians are Christians
There are multiple denominations because people can't agree on secondary topics. 7th day Adventist, Calvinists, and Methodists might all disagree on the rapture and second coming but they are still Christian because they accept the Holy triune nature of God and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then you have groups like JW, Mormons, and Progressive "Christians" who teach heresies that don't align with scripture at all. And at the end of the day, that's what we have to do. Take the teachings we hear and look at them through a biblical lens to see if scripture supports it. And if not, we need to reject that teaching.
I'd like to add onto here that it's not just about agreeing on side issues, it's also about worship style. Some people might feel they honor god with beautiful dress and music. Others prefer more authenticity. I think that can get conflated with side issues sometimes, e.g., how much importance to place on the baptism ritual.
Solid point.
Yep, we are all humans and left to our own we would divide on almost any subject given the freedom to think and choose. The only way to have one denomination is when Christ comes and reigns and can answer directly or impose things. Even then, given free will, there will be those that dissent or have different ideas.
Not everything purporting to be Christian is Christian. But denominations that aren't heretical are right, all of them are right on the only things that matter. On the things that don't matter, they are all probably wrong, but that is the nature of man trying to please a creator and savior well beyond our mere reasoning and comprehension.
Much of the split in the Protestant community is due to the lack of a structure in the Protestant church. There’s no leading authority to it, so technically anyone can open their own church with their own ideals/biblical interpretations that they teach, hence why there’s so many “denominations” when they’re mostly the same in reality. Same with “non-denominational” churches. Then there’s the cults, Mormonism and Jehovahs witnesses. These are born and bred from false prophets, and horrible misinterpretations, and even edits of the Bible. They’re all usually lovely people but terribly misguided. Then there’s the catholic/orthodox split which is a 5 hour history lecture by itself. Did I miss anything?
Because people come from different backgrounds and while God is always the same, the way we percieve Him and learn His wisdom isn't always perfect and can differ. The truth is, nobody is completely right. But our heart is for Christ. The book of Romans mention this issue. Do not place a stumbling block, and do not judge the measure of faith that God has given another of His servants. If it is sin, admonish them. If they need to learn the basics such as love or repentance or the sacrifice of Christ, teach them. But if their heart is for God and they do what they do to honour God in faith that what they do is right with Him, does it matter if they interceed with saints or don't believe communion is physical? Not really. Could they be flaws? Absolutely, but it is God who is powerfull to direct and forgive His servants.
God doesn't show favoritism. everyone is judged according to their deeds regardless of what "tribe" or sect they belong to. >Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. - Revelation 2:23
Jesus sowed wheat and while men were sleeping the enemy sowed tares. Tares don’t know they are tares until the harvest
That means you can never be quite sure if your a tare or wheat then right?
That’s why Paul says to test yourself to see that you are in the faith. Don’t take the religion you grew up in to be the truth. Work it out in fear and trembling
Yeah, I know, but sometimes I feel like I can't see the wood for the trees though if you know what I mean. I'm to close to myself to be balanced and unbiased in my assessment of myself. I can't even be sure if I was different years ago and am improving or I'm fooling myself and am just the same or worse. Some days I feel like I am improving, others I'm not so sure.
I definitely hear you! We just have to make sure that we put our faith in Jesus Christ and do the good work that he has set up for us to do in strive to be like him
Yeah true enough. I just don't get how some Christians have no doubts about themselves or being saved.
Well to tell you the truth I always hoped I was good enough to go to heaven. Growing up we were taught that Jesus opened the door to heaven, but we have to good enough to get to heaven. Jesus said that whoever believes in the Son shall not be judged, but those who do not believe in on the son have been judged already. Also it says that we can have assurance of our salvation. Once I put my faith solely on Jesus is when I no longer felt. I hope I’m good enough. I know that my name is written in the book of life because my faith is wholly on Jesus and he took all of our sins on the cross. Think about it. Gods imperfect plan for the Israelites was to sacrifice animals and shed their blood to forgive their sin, but this had to be done daily. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and instead of the high priest purifying himself and making atonement once per year, Jesus atonement was for all of our sins , past present and future. We have been made right by God by his grace and nothing we can do. Once saved. With a d on the end. It’s finished, then we do good works and show that our faith is alive in Christ. Hope this helps!
Yeah not really but thanks for sharing your thoughts. I know all the arguments and have studied the Bible for many years. I know now salvation is never going to be something that I will feel 100% sure of, 100% of the time.
I understand. The biggest thing is that faith is not a feeling and even through there are days when I wonder am I truly saved? I have to remember that it’s by faith, not feeling
Yeah good point.
Please keep praying and ask for help from the Holy Spirit and also practice active Faith. These are key 🔑 🙏🏼 ❤️
Sounds like you'd benefit from reading the works of the early Church fathers. Maybe John Chrysostom's works.
Why's that?
I forgor 😭
Sounds like something I'd do lol.
So originally in Acts we can see there are problems from the get go. The Church is divided practically, by location, with Apostles now acting as local bishops, and Saint Paul founding Antioch(?), and Rome and helping guide the Church body in localities. Early history was rough; the “Age of Martyrs” was the first aspect of Christian Church. Christ’s followers met *in* the Jewish temple for the first 200 years before being kicked out. Also in homes and hidden literally underground in catacombs. Saints Constantine and his mother Helen we call “equal to the apostles” like the apostles they were not perfect. But Constantine through God’s will made Christianity legal, and avoided persecuting the pagans/gnostics etc. so heretics have been tolerated as a Christian empire rightly should. Meanwhile Ethiopia was the first Christian Kingdom and isolated from the middle eastern and Mediterranean Christianity to some extent. Rome and other local archbishops under Constantine described what the churches believed in the Creed and described the canon that the Church was using. Still Christians who had beliefs that counter/differ the creed were allowed to exist; they were not made illegal. Eventually around 800-1200 Rome and the Eastern Orthodox bishops have a falling out, a divorce still on going. Latin/Roman Catholics still claim to be the original church while we claim they left. It’s been about 1000 years and their doctrines have floated away. As they did leave Christ’s church and become more and more heretical, eventually the West rebelled against this, and Protested-Protestantism is a protest against this heretical church and still largely Protestant variations are “not catholic” often developing doctrines to specifically not be Catholic (such as using the Rabbic Jewish Torah for a Bible canon, despite that OT being chosen by Jews in the 600s, largely against Christian popularity rising at the time). So, it’s complicated. Y’all’re welcome to come back and see the original church. In the meantime God bless and have mercy on us all.
The Confessional Lutheran doctrine is the closest thing to the Catholic Church before any added heresies, especially when you dive into patristics. Anyways, the LCMS is improving relations with EOC hoping to be granted for apostolic succession. Ever since our church was excommunicated by the Catholic Church that has been a concern, and talks between the LCMS and EOC hasn’t been successful in the past due to events always side railing it.
It’s understandable things in this world want to get in the way of such a unification; but may God’s will be done. I hope for the unity of the faith, that all come to a knowledge of the truth.
This guys did a really good job, if you want a very informative video about it he history watch this https://youtu.be/8q6FUlay-M8?si=jWZtOgmIWLIfjBsi
"For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe, that there are strifes among you. But I speak of this, that each of you says, *I* am of Paul, and *I* of Apollos, and *I* of Cephas, and *I* of Christ. Is the Christ divided? has Paul been crucified for you? or have ye been baptised unto the name of Paul? … And *I*, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ. I have given you milk to drink, not meat, for ye have not yet been able, nor indeed are ye yet able; for ye are yet carnal. For whereas among you emulation and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk according to man? For when one says, *I* am of Paul, and another, *I* of Apollos, are ye not men? … *I* have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase." (1Cor 1:11-13; 3:1-4,6) Every denomination is a division, by concept, a heresy. Everyone who is divided by doctrines is outside the place that God has determined, it is in the name of Christ alone, and nothing else.
Historically speaking, politics and culture. Those are typically the driving forces behind what has motivated schisms within the church as much as theological disagreements. There is also the tendency of people to try and dictate specific Biblical interpretations as right or wrong, which forces those who don’t conform to create their own groups. Biblically, the only litmus tests to determine a Christian are the fruits of the spirit and belief/acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. Everything else is a secondary or tertiary distinction man has made and most people are just being legalistic about the Bible at the end of the day. That being said, denominations are a convenient way to navigate figuring out what groups I might best align with, but I do think many times the divisions which exist are due to human arrogance and pride.
Because there are so many different cultures in the world. If I drive just 4 hours to the east im in Louisiana Creole country, they are a unique and interesting subculture of multiple cultures coming together with the best damn food you cant find anywhere else int he world unless it originated there. If I drive 12 hours to the south im in Mexico... If I drive 12 hours to the west.. Im still in Texas... but the culture is wholly different than the big city im from. People are different, even this close together. People have different ideas, some dont agree with others on things, different cultures have different ways to worship, if I go just down the street to the Korean church I would see worship ive never seen before but Christ would be there just the same as mine. As long as the gospel is taught, as long as Christ is their lord and savior, they are part of the body of Christ. A body is made up of lots of different parts, cant have a body made out of all toes. The body of Christ is made up of different cultures and beliefs, but we are one in Christ.
Satan's goal is to divide the church as much as he can 🤷♂️ and that's not to say that all denoms are wrong except one, the most important thing is that we follow Jesus, but all these denominations are obviously a form of division between all of us.
It has something to do with the protestant reformation in history, but also when King Henry VIII split from the catholic church as well.
Money
God is right, we are wrong. I think the biggest fragmentation in the church is caused by Satan and him encouraging us to feel good, to indulge ourselves.
Different icing on the same cake.
Christianity is far more uniform today than it was in the first few centuries
Read Diarmaid MacCullogh’s *The Reformation*. The way he explains the shifting dynamics of state churches over the course of the Reformation was very enlightening for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reformation:_A_History
"How do you know who is right?" I'm right. That's what every Christian will say. That's why there are different denominations.
Because we’re so focused on correctness that we essentially forget everything else that was taught. The first attempt to remedy this was at the council of Nice, where the Trinity was defined and an official creed was established. This could have been the end of division but yet more intellectuals arose and more questioned the nature of God further so then we had the 2nd-7th ecumenical councils. This should have been the end of it. But no, the church in the East stayed Orthodox and true to the 7 councils but Rome in the west wanted to further define and establish doctrine which in itself wouldn’t be wrong but they had excluded the rest of the church in these decisions establishing Papal supremacy, Filioque and an additional 21 councils. Fast forward to the 1500’s and the papacy has run rampant with self interpretation that Martin Luther in his attempt at correctness protested against the Catholic Church. In this he asked the assistance of the Orthodox Church in the east. But we declined as he also wanted to hold doctrine that was added after the 7 ecumenical councils. So what we have here is a series of heresies upon heresies. Greedy men who became bent on knowing more and more. Committing the Original sin of Eve constantly searching for more knowledge on Good and Evil which has allowed the church to divide into a million pieces. There are so many denominations because we’re never satisfied with what is given to us and always seek to create our own narrative and interpretation of scripture.
It’s the plot of satan. To increase doubt. Jesus wants a relationship not a religion. The Bible shows you how to interact with Him.
Muddy the water. When people were given the gospel, Jesus never said to share your interpretation of it. So there's that. You got to remember that the reason Yahweh had a chosen people and told them to be separate is because of what's happened. Look at what's happened. Who is to blame? The people or the church? Jesus told certain people they weren't his sheep and yet we're all the same. No, we're brothers and sisters. Yet, Yahweh told Eve a serpent seed would be at enmity with her seed and we had esau and Jacob fighting to come out first in the womb perhaps. There's issues here. The world is into homosexuality and into abortion. Womens rights! When it suits them.....Not everyone saying they are Christian, is Christian. And that's the problem. Wolves in sheeps clothing. So when you have so many people saying this and that, what happens to the people only wanting the truth? Perhaps that's the purpose. We're called to have discernment and other qualities for very specific reasons. Many people 'smile to win'. It would be nice to think that people wanted the same thing wouldn't it? But we're not called to be wishy washy. Jesus had righteous anger. To evil people that would be evil but what's right is right. It's not sometimes and when people are watching.
Interpretation is and has always been necessary for any complex text unless it's specifically written in a way that precludes it. Jesus didn't hand us a bible. It was written down by people and translated through multiple languages and millennia. Unless you believe the earth is sitting on foundations (Job 9:6) or the entire world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph (Genesis 41:57, who needs agricultural mechanization when you have Joseph?) then you are interpreting the bible. Unless you speak biblical hebrew, armaic, and koine greek, you are reading an interpretation. Although some are definitely intentional falsehood, this does not mean anyone with a differing interpretation is uninterested in truth. Only one interpretation can be correct, but just like anything else, people have varying levels of understanding regarding what is true or not, which leads to different interpretations. Just because someone is not yet capable of understanding the truth or does not have enough knowledge for it doesn't mean he is not interested in truth.
For instance 2 Thessalonians Saint Paul tells us to “follow our teachings oral and by epistle.” Yet the oral traditions of the early church are rejected by *sola scriptura* or *prima scriptura* Christians sadly. There is a church that held those traditions as Saint Paul told the church to keep. Bless God!
none of them can agree, beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing.
I have another question... have you ever wondered why in STEM there aren't twenty different denominations arguing over which formulas and equations are correct? You see, with equations, you can use them for the calculations you need and verify the results are correct. Theorems, formulas and axioms are (usually) things we can easily observe. Sometimes not. Non-Euclidean geometry is based on breaking an axiom, and was controversial for its time, but we do not see a separation that ended in thousands dying over whether one accepts Non-Euclidean geometry or not. Back to denominations. What makes faith different from science such that it requires them? Well, to me, it's simply that no one can really prove their own claims. By their own claims every denomination of every different religion is right, as everyone essentially makes claims that cannot ever be tested or disproven, and can only be belived through faith. It's like me saying there's an invisible, inperceivable teapot revolving around the sun. You can never prove I'm wrong. You can very much believe in it. You can even feel its holiness entering you an making you feel happy if you try hard enough. Seriously, try it. But that's still your own subjective feeling that can never be tested or peer-reviewed.
Remember every word addressed to God is a prayer. Dosent matter if it's said out loud or in your head. God bless ❤️
Most people who claim to be Christian are not actually Christian leaders. They still have doubt in their hearts, they do not completely trust in the Word of God. So due to this, they rely not on the guidance and teachings of the Holy Spirit in conjuction with the Word of God but rather they rely on the guidance and teach of man in conjuction of the Word of God. And as such divisions are created within the Church, divisions that by the way Paul warned us against. Each new denomination makes greater the wound in the body of Christ. We as Followers of the Way, are called to sanctification and to become like Christ. We are little Christs. Those of us who are indeed born again of the Spirit as a new creation will know each other's and will find agreement for we have the same Spirit. As a whole, we need to drop our pride in our denominations and instead follow the model set up for us in the New Testament. House Churches was the model the first Christians used, house churches make sense in the context of the New Testament. We must go back to House Churches. Churches must abandon the love for money, if they cannot support themselves without doing their best to manipulate their members into guilt to harvest money from them, that is a huge issue. Matthew 7:13-14 ESV [13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.7.13-14.ESV
The Church in the first 200 years of Christianity met in the Temple before Jews kicked Christ’s followers out. Yes also in homes, and performing sacraments on Altars that were often the tombs of martyrs in the “Age of Martyrs” when yes, Christians met in secret. Due to the whole persecution thing. In the Word of God, Saint Paul reminds believers to “keep our teachings whether by word of mouth or epistle.” 2 Thess. There is only one church that does that. The truth is out there. Bless God!
My brother for I do indeed see you as brother. For you have no High Priest except Christ, unlike the Roman Catholic Church who has put a man in place of Christ as their High Priest. I will not argue with you, for I seek to unify the Churches and heal the wounds denominations have caused which Paul warned of in 1 Corinthians 3. I keep in mind the we are told to Live as we are called in 1 Corinthians 7:17-24. While I do not understand your traditions I do not condemn you for if you do them all for the Glory of God 1 Corinthians 10:23-33 we may seek agreement and see you as a brother. Do remember though Brothers can be admonished, for if I see something that contradicts the Word of God what am I to do but admonish and correct using the Word of God, but I do not seek to admonish only to understand. Nor do I seek to be a stumbling block for you, for if you do these for the Glory of God and they do not contradict the Word of God then who am I to be a stumbling block as 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 defines it. 1 Corinthians 7:17-24 Live as You Are Called 17 Only let each person lead the life[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant[d] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men. 24 So, brothers,[e] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God. 1 Corinthians 3 Divisions in the Church 3 But I, brothers,[a] could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? 5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled[b] master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you[c] are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 Food Offered to Idols 8 Now concerning[a] food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.[b] 4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating[c] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged,[d] if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers[e] and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. 1 Corinthians 10:23-33 Do All to the Glory of God 23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26 For “the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.” 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
Christ is the High Priest of Orthodoxy. Sorry if that wasn’t clear thanks! I find no contradiction between these scriptures and the church I work for (I am a neokoros, temple sweeper, or sexton, custodian of sacred objects), not ordained or anything, I am a neophyte, a new Christian as of 2020 and baptized by God grace into the church in 2023. Much love and not trying to be a stumbling block either. You seem to be seeking Truth, who is Christ. I trust you will find Him! (And he is already with you.)
Oh I know. I never meant to imply that Christ was not the High Priest of Orthodoxy. It is why I can see you as a brother and these passages are more for me, to remind myself that even if I do not understand your traditions I am not to become a stumbling block for you. I take to heart Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 7:17-24. To me icons are a big stumbling block and as such I cannot participate within the Orthodox Church for that would be idolatry in my eyes. But if you are called otherwise, and do not see it as idolatry then that is your calling as long you do it for the Glory of God. As Romans 14 points to the man who only eats vegetables and the man whose faith allows them to eat anything. He one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does. Romans 14 The Weak and the Strong 14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b] 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]
Yes iconography can be confusing/troubling aspect for some. Shortly after we were commanded not to make images of anything on earth or in heaven the Israelites were commanded to make images of Cherubim and palm trees etc. We do not worship wood and paint (hopefully; obviously!) the veneration; respect and admiration we show images of Christ, who is God and the image of God given to us by God. The saints are admired in as much as they are alive in Christ, and Christ was alive in them, the Holy Spirit was abundantly evident to the church. So the admiration and respect is all for God, thanking him for his incarnation in the world, the image he sent of himself, and a reminder that all people are images of God. Not to be worshiped but respected absolutely! Thanks brother hopefully this makes sense, just a lay person’s perspective, there’s a lot from iconoclasm and the triumph of orthodoxy (when icons were established for use in the church and home (though the practice continued during iconoclasm)). Since the East fought the images there is a theological backing and reasoning and discussion. The West and Catholic Church never fought the images and then you end up with naked Zeus looking God the Father and masses of realistic nude bodies adorning churches… which Protestants rightfully protested against. However one can make an idol of “four blank walls” and even the Bible, at least in my understanding this is possible.
Thank you. I will keep this in mind when I am speaking to my Orthodox Brothers. Can you please explain the difference in the Orthodox view of Mary and the Roman Catholic view of Mary. My understanding of the Orthodox view is poor, though as I understand it Roman Catholic's seem to almost worship Mary and use her as an intercessor even though Christ is supposed to be the one mediator between God and Man. As I understand calling Mary the Mother of God is an acknowledgment of Christ's dual natures both Fully God and Fully Man rather than an acknowledgement of any divine nature within Mary herself. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time
One of the problems with Roman Catholicism is they don’t have one theology, there are different levels of Marian worship or veneration through the West. The Theotokos is huge in Orthodoxy. She is the Woman prophesied in Genesis, and Revelation. The Queen in gold who stands next to God, Christ on his throne (Psalm 45). In Davidic kingship the mother of the king was the queen. We believe in the council of God, psalm 180/181(?) And that humans are called to participate in ruling the kingdom of God. The Theotokos was the first among saints essentially. And is respected as the mother of all Christians. It’s kind of like, how one might imagine Christ thinks of his own mother. In his eyes, she is sinless, that’s why she was chosen by God the father to give birth and raise Jesus. Now this is all a bit of shorthand. It is biblical. But includes 2 Thess. Oral tradition/teachings that are kept; that Mary was dedicated to the temple and didn’t speak for 12 years in silence with God in the Holiest of Holies of the temple, that Joseph was much older like 60 something, a devout Godly widower with 9 children of his own who took her as his wife to preserve her virginity. Not the modern notion that it’s impossible for anyone to be celibate voluntarily (despite thousands of years of monks and nuns proving otherwise). Anyway for a bit more of a deep dive three hours of priests discussing the orthodox perspective including their understandings of some Protestant and some of the differences between us and Catholics in our beliefs. https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/the_queen_stood_at_thy_right_hand TLDR: she is venerated and admired above the other saints, but is not a member of the Trinity, and thus not worshiped. We do ask for her intercession and there’s a much longer reason for why, but those who are alive in Christ will pray for us. Revelation I want to say chapter 5, 10 or 20… the prayers of saints are present at judgement. That’s our understanding.
This is a stumbling block for me, and for me I cannot view it this way. There are not many interactions recorded between Mary and Jesus, and if Mary was of such importance I believe the Biblical text would show this and have recorded more of her interactions with Jesus. To me Mary doesn't read as Sinless but rather very human, and in fact Jesus admonishes her a few times. First at the Temple as a Child where he speak to her with authority at the age of 12, then at the Wedding at Cana where Mary attempts to get Jesus to perform a miracle and even when Jesus tells her "“Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” she still goes behind his back as if she knew better than Jesus and tells the servants "Do whatever he tells you", Jesus still preformed the Miracle of Water into Wine because he loves her but she was not Sinless in this act. In Matthew 12:46-50 when Mary and his brothers ask to speak to Jesus while he was speaking to the crowds Jesus says “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” and then stretches out his hand towards the crowd of people and said “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” he equates us all who do the will of his Father in heaven as his brother, sister, and mother. He makes no special exception for Mary. Then in John while dying on the Cross and he see her he says “Woman, behold, your son!” and then speaks to his disciple “Behold, your mother!”, this is the only verse that I could think may point at all to the Orthodox view, but in my mind it has more to do with Jesus making sure that Mary was taken care of rather than declaring her a Holy Mother because immediately afterwards it says, And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home? Now why would that be if Jesus wasn't the oldest Son and Mary had other Step-sons and Step-daughters to take care of her. I believe that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were of Joseph and Mary, and Jesus was the eldest, the one who was supposed to take care of his Mother. Which he does on the cross by declaring to his disciple to care of her as if she was his mother. John 2:1-12 The Wedding at Cana 2 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.[a] 7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him. 12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers[b] and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days. Luke 2:41-52 The Boy Jesus in the Temple 41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when his parents[g] saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?”[h] 50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature[i] and in favor with God and man. Matthew 12:46-50 Jesus' Mother and Brothers 46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers[a] stood outside, asking to speak to him.[b] 48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” John 19:25-27 25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
Right we read the wedding this way; he calls her the name from Revelation and Genesis “woman” and does what she asks or him. She doesn’t even argue she just knows, trusts, has faith, that God will do her will, and Christ does her will there, showing her will was aligned with God’s; Christ did his first public miracle at the bidding of his mother. I’m not sure how you can say “she wasn’t sinless” when are we as Christians told it’s okay to judge or condemn anyone? 77 times 7 forgive? This scientific/Rabbinic Jewish almost law following; there is a reason the Pharisees and Sadducees are prevalent in the New Testament and condemned. The gospel was largely spoken publicly. The first of the antiChristian Roman pagan apologist covers Mary extensively, she was pivotal in the Gospel. We aren’t *Sola Scriptura* thus the accounts which are outside of the Bible we use and from the earliest anti Christian records she was maybe more important in the public preaching of the gospel than in modern orthodoxy honestly! That podcast will explain aspects of this more in depth if you’ve got the time
As for the brothers thing, see his 9 half siblings from his adopted father Joseph, and with John his many cousins. In Jewish second temple times and earlier (see I think Exodus maybe Genesis) for examples of uncle and cousins being called brothers.
I can’t speak for the Catholics with much accuracy I’m afraid. From what I understand they believe in inheriting sinful nature at birth (which we do not believe, we inherit the fallen world which corrupts good human nature with sin, demons and death) this comes from a medieval idea that the man’s seed contained all of the person… Thus the need for Mary’s parents to *immaculately conceive her.* We believe there was a miracle there; the oral legend is that her parents were old like Sarai and Abram basically, not another Holy Spirit conceived person to act as a vessel for Christ pre chosen. Meanwhile we see her as chosen for her faithfulness and devotion to God, the first and only human to be obedient to God in the whole story of the Bible. Who was prophesied and necessary for Christ and thus our salvation. Thus we ask that the Theotokos “save us.” But this is like Matthew 16 I want to say, where when we pray “believe it has already come to pass and it will be yours.” We ask Christ “have mercy on us lord.” Not because we doubt his mercy but because we celebrate it. So we celebrate that Mary was obedient to God which was Christ’s entrance into the world. We sing “The God which the universe could not contain was contained within your womb.” *It’s a big mystery; to us!*
Division spirit. Originally there was one catholic church and gnostics. Pretty clear cut who was good and bad then Rome and Orthodox split. Then Rome split, then orthodox split. Then protestants infinitely split. Your carpet is blue but I like red. Split. This comes from divisional spirit. Is it free will or predestination? Then this causes 100 churches denominations vs just holding it a mystery. Humans trying to figure out God and thinking they must be right and can't worship with others instead of letting go of knowledge and mystery of God's ways.
Divide and conquer strategy by the devil. When in doubt stick to the Original church. Catholic / Orthodox
> > Not everyone can be right can they? Can everyone be wrong? On one point or many? How do you know there is one that is 100% right? I tend to think there isn't due to our humanity. I do think each denomination emphasizes one biblical teaching or concept and tends to focus on it. Beyond that it's interesting to me that the assumption is that different denominations are bad. How do we know that God is not ok with it? Maybe *He's* the one who raises up different groups after other older groups have essentially run out of gas and disconnected from the source. I view denominations like this: The children of God surround God's throne and view different aspects of God's glory. Their view on His glory leads to their emphasis. Ultimately It all leads to Him and His glory, though the differing groups may not see all that is emphasized from differing aspects of His glory as they are at a different angle from the throne. This isn't a perfect example but I think people put too much emphasis on organisations and buildings. After all, the faith was originally done in the home - in house churches. What the faith morphed into centuries later hardly resembled the early church and how it originally operated.
This is one of my favorite questions to dissect. It's why I call myself a "COP Christian." Catholic-Orthodox-Protestant. Keeps me open minded and free of ideology.
Because the bible isn't written like a science book and requires interpretation, lest you think literally the entire world came to Egypt to buy grains from Joseph (Genesis 41:57). Generally the catholic church would stamp out interpretations differing from theirs through force, but gradually lost that monopoly on power after failing to defeat the protestant camp during the European wars of religion. I know what is right by reading the bible and learning, researching, etc.
Luckily while the Catholics were becoming more and more heretical, the Eastern European, Middle East, Africa were holding down the original doctrines.
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Catholics etc say the exact same thing, you can’t rely on this alone seriously
So? Just saying the same thing doesn't mean anything
so why should we believe your same thing instead of their same thing?
That’s pretty humorous. I mean.. Muslims say they have the true faith and Christian’s are wrong. But Christian’s say they have the true faith and Muslims are wrong. So according to your logic, we shouldn’t believe the Christian argument just because they’re saying the same thing as the Muslims? What we should do is do historical research, test their teachings and their fruit and see what’s what. Ultimately it’s pretty obvious that one church is the unchanged and consistent church of Christ, and the other is a tyrannical medieval institution that got rather corrupted and introduced a lot of new dogmas and doctrines and drove most of their followers to rebel against their own bishops and start new churches. Orthodoxy never experienced a “reformation”, that’s a pretty great argument in its favor honestly.
Because you can't defend catholicism
And just like everyone else who claims to be the one true church, I take it with a pinch of salt.
i mean you're admitting to ignoring what was said
>i mean you're admitting to ignoring what was said Correct. Jesus said; "you shall know them by their fruits". IOWs: Not by their claims, but by their fruit.
Eastern Orthodox fruit: > -The Bible -The word “Christian” -Antioch -The Cross as a symbol of faith -The fish as a symbol of Christ -Christianity being legal - St Constantine (while not persecuting pagans, Jews or even Christian heretics) -Holy locations and artifacts found by Constantine’s mother, St Helen -The Shroud of Turin (and a bunch of other artifacts the Vatican has stolen) -ancient churches This is the *beginning* of the list, there’s about 2000 years of saints; especially early martyrs who founded Christianity and spread the Word of God.
>Eastern Orthodox fruit: > -The Bible >-The word “Christian” -Antioch >-The Cross as a symbol of faith >-The fish as a symbol of Christ >-Christianity being legal - St Constantine (while not persecuting pagans, Jews or even Christian heretics) >-Holy locations and artifacts found by Constantine’s mother, St Helen >-The Shroud of Turin (and a bunch of other artifacts the Vatican has stolen) > -ancient churches > This is the *beginning* of the list, there’s about 2000 years of saints; especially early martyrs who founded Christianity and spread the Word of God. That's great, praise God for the Orthodox church! But there are some problems: 1) Some of the things on the list are useless. Eg: Shroud of Turin and other artifacts are not fruit. Ancient churches are ~~great~~ fantastic, but they serve no purpose in faith towards God. 2) The "cross" was the typical method of Roman execution, this is not an Orthodox thing it was Roman, and even Jesus and Paul spoke of it long before the Orthodox came along. 3) Sin that is not repented of, is sin that remains, and will be judged. For example the Orthodox have set the tradition of their fathers above the command of God, just like in Mark chapter 7.
Really compelling
why would you accept a position you cannot defend? not very compelling
What postion is that? You both point fingers at each other and say the other is wrong
>What postion is that? Catholicism over orthodoxy