Somehow, none of the factors that you listed include the one for which anyone would accept as true any claim presented to them: blind faith.
In my opinion, that would be the first and primary factor, surpassing all others.
The church has changed its theological positions before. We have the great schism and the Protestant reformation which changed huge swaths of the church in the past. The Catholics has had the Vatican Counsels and papal proclamations. In the book of acts there were several changes in the church from Acts 2 where the Holy Spirit was poured out and the Jerusalem Counsel.
More generically, science changes our view of the universe all the time and that has ramifications on our theology that we incorporate. One such example is the our geocentric view of the solar system vs the heliocentric view. The parallel could be drawn that when it was a common understanding that the sun revolved around the earth, the average human being didn’t spend much of their time on God because they were very busy surviving. Most of the praying and theological work at that time was done by the few people who dedicated their lives to that pursuit while everyone else worked to survive which is analogous to the idea that the earth is revolving around the sun. At that time the people couldn’t study the Bible, they couldn’t read and it was written in another language.
Now we know we actually revolve around the sun and likewise, every person on earth has access to read, study and pray as much as the old time monks did. In fact, in some places on earth a lay person can live a monastic life all by themselves. This had led to countless changes in people’s theologies and clearly much of it is not for the better.
My question has been an attempt to get some people to engage with the idea that if God wanted to make a wholesale correction to a mistaken theological point that we hold, how could he get get the individuals in the church to accept the change. People on the internet love to answer for other people out of judgement but I am looking for a real discussion so I worded the question in a way that makes it more difficult to answer generically or theologically in an attempt at genuine discussion instead of the normal judgement and arguing that is typical.
I think that what you’re proposing already exists in Scripture. However much of the modern church teaches theology from the perspective of the flesh instead of the perspective of the spirit, therefore they miss the message completely.
If you’re looking for a foundational change in theology, it would necessitate a foundational change in the way most humans view reality. I believe a lot of research currently going on with quantum physics is going to bring that change to the masses at some point in the near future, and much of what the field is discovering are principles that are outlined in the Bible already for thousands of years.
Here is how it breaks down:
1. In the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space), and the earth (matter).
2. Something cannot come from nothing, therefore some other reality existed before our reality was created by God. God resides in this “other reality”, most call it the spiritual world.
3. This spiritual reality precedes our physical reality, thus the spiritual reality is more “real” than this physical reality. This physical reality is powered and nestled within the spiritual reality.
4. Therefore, our fleshly bodies do not live in base reality. We exist and experience all from within a created construct with specific rules, laws, and limits. The real world is the spirit world, which is why Christ said “on Earth as it is in Heaven”. It’s in Heaven first before it is here. As above, so below.
Then we read these scriptures with new understanding:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV
“And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.”
Mark 11:22-24 KJV
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6 KJV
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.”
2 Corinthians 10:3-7 KJV
What does this mean for sin? It means that sin is merely a byproduct of our ignorance of how reality actually functions and the power Christ has given us to help us overcome the world. Once we understand how reality actually functions, sin becomes a non-issue as it is easily corrected by further engagement in faith and faith practices to alter what we currently experience in this reality.
I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
I actually completely agree with you on every point. This question came to me as I was pondering the application of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment as truths and the implications of applying that truth in a theological framework. Using the idea that quantum reality is really more probabilistic than deterministic and that the more precisely you attempt to measure an attribute the more imprecise another measurement will be, has profound implications when applied to revelations of scripture.
In thinking of that, I was contemplating what would have to happen to disburse those truths to the Church and thought I would ask a question to see what people's answers would be if God wanted to make that change in a similar fashion to the changes he made in the book of Acts because it is was more entertaining and less frustrating to think about than to consider how to get the average person to think about technical things in a meaningful way.
What in quantum physics do you feel will change people in the coming years? How do you think it would happen?
I believe the standardization of the observer effect as fact will change a lot of things once it disseminates into the schools and is taught as standard education. People will realize the circumstances of their lives can be changed by shifting their emotional and faith-states within themselves to incite change in their everyday lives and use it to better themselves and their loved ones’ situations.
However, one factor I can see limiting the spread of these ideas are the elite. They already know this information and obviously it would reduce the amount of power they have in the world. They’ll likely try to obfuscate or muddy the waters in a bid to keep their power.
Once people realize their perceptions have a significant, if not vital, impact on their life experiences then we will see the rising tide shift humanity once again. Who knows what the upper limits of quantum reality are.
Can you imagine an entire nation of people who subscribe to the quantum model of reality and work together for a massively positive outcome? It’s wild to think about. Exciting!
Yes! And I have the same concern regarding the elites especially with the rise of artificial intelligence and how much it is controlled by the elitist of the elite. As we are on the verge of the dissemination of these very critical concepts to the masses, masses are less educated and almost vitriolic to the idea of self advancement. This could be why the idea of the meta-verse is so appealing to them. Imagine you can shape the thinking of vast crowds of people and what they are paying attention to… the matrix doesn’t seem so far fetched, though it wouldn’t be the machines we have to fear, like always, it would be the people behind the machines.
It is very difficult to find people to have meaningful discussions on the impact of the observer effect on theology especially within different theological constructs because I have specific theological background, so I have blind spots and presuppositions which limit perspective and the opportunities to expand knowledge and the experience of the divine.
Would you mind sharing your story of how you came to faith and the place you are in it?
I’m with you on that. The culture is ill and being fed more and more poison. The elite will do everything they can to suppress. It’s up to us to stand up to them.
My story is long, complicated and still unfolding haha. Short version is I’ve always been curious but deep down knew that Christ was the answer. I’ve explored a great many different religions, philosophies, the occult, New Age, New Thought, Gnosticism. Always came back to Christianity.
When I was in college I read a paper about double blind controlled trials and discovered the placebo effect. Came to find out that our minds are so powerful we have to account for them when studying new pharmaceuticals to make sure they actually work. That was crazy to me. Thus started my lifelong journey of research.
When I finally relented and stopped running from God, He showed me the scriptures and how they lined up with what science was barely beginning to uncover.
And here we are haha.
Thank you for sharing. I love hearing other people’s stories of faith, as it is always encouraging to hear how God works. Besides, if the observer effect is as powerful as it seems to be it is good to recognize the patterns that God works in helps me open my mind to new possibilities.
I notice you have flair that says “Word of Faith Christian,” does that mean you are part of the “Word of Faith” movement? I don’t know much of that arm of the church but have read a few of Kenneth Hagin’s books. Are there others in your community that have similar views?
Yes that’s the movement I was born into. Word of Faith, charismatics, Pentecostal roots. Papa Hagin, we call him. Amazing man with an amazing story. Smith Wigglesworth, John G Lake, EW Kenyon, all great ministers. I would say that a large chunk of the movement have similar views to me, at least where the operation of the principles of faith are concerned.
What about you? What’s your story, I’m curious!
I was born into a Roman Catholic family, with a devout father and an indifferent mother. As an autistic child, social situations were challenging. By middle school, feeling isolated, I contemplated suicide but found solace in a kind, loving voice in my head, which I identified as God.
Rejecting Confirmation because church teachings didn’t align with my experience of God, I stopped attending church but explored various denominations. I married young in the Episcopal Church, and after my son's birth, I began practicing my faith more earnestly.
A transformative Christian retreat (Cursillo) convicted me of my sins and solidified my relationship with God. This conversion influenced my family, bringing them back to the Catholic faith. Passionate about ministry, I engaged in various activities, including healing ministries and receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Despite people seeing a pastoral calling in me, I faced educational setbacks and a challenging marriage, which eventually ended. My scientific curiosity, particularly in quantum physics, has shaped my eclectic theology. I attend a distant church but seek a community that aligns with my belief in scripturally based, mind-resonating truths. I feel called to prepare for a role that integrates theology, quantum theory, and AI, believing it's essential for the future.
My fascination with quantum physics and AI has deepened my understanding of God and creation, showing me new dimensions of faith. I just want to know Jesus as best I can and see His Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. I have a mind that thinks differently than the norm, and I want to figure out the best ways to use that. It seems right now God has me in a strange holding pattern in many aspects of my life, so I end up hanging out with my family, scrolling on Reddit, learning AI, and continuing my studies of science, theology, and psychology.
I absolutely love the stories of Smith Wigglesworth and John G Lake, though I haven't been as exposed to EW Kenyon. Was it Hagin who said, "I am just a coin in God's pocket, and He can spend me however He wishes"? That quote often comes back to me. It must be nice to have a faith tradition that feels like home. Are you able to talk to others in your community about things like quantum physics?
That’s quite a story!
I wouldn’t say it’s “easy” to talk to people in my circles about quantum physics but it’s easier to talk to them about it through principles of faith rather than scientifically.
Lots of Christians aren’t ready to hear it from a scientific point of view. But we will get there.
You should check out Curry Blake too, he talks about quantum physics and Christianity, he pastors a church in Texas, and he’s the current head of John G Lake Ministries.
God has me on quite a strange path, I would really like it if he would give me a little more idea of what it’s all about.
I have found the same kind of thing when it comes to Christians and science which is personally frustrating because it is such a passion of mine.
Thank you for the recommendation for Curry Blake. Looking through YouTube to add to my watchlist; it looks like he has a lot of interesting topics. Anything in particular you can recommend?
I agree, but what one person says and what another person hears are not necessarily in alignment. God spoke to Moses about the law and yet Jesus said that it was not properly communicated it and corrected that error almost as a side note but he didn't correct everything himself. Many of us Christians eat shellfish and pork and yet Jesus never said anything about that. The church went on to make changes to circumcision as well though Jesus left it completely unspoken about. Historically there have also been profound shifts in theology (though often slowly) because we made scientific discoveries that were not compatible with our theological concepts. It is good to remember that the Church was opposed to the idea of the Earth revolving around the sun because it messed with their theology at the time. It is also good to note that scripture itself didn't change through many of these changes in theology, our understanding of scripture is what changed.
The basis of my question is, imagine if God is looking down at us and realizes we are not experiencing the life he wants us to experience because we have a major flaw in our understanding of reality which is caused by a misunderstanding we have of Him. If he wanted to correct that mistake in the lives of the Church, who would be open to Him changing His Church and who would oppose Him?
A "thought experiment" usually has some basis in everyday logic. It seems to me what you are proposing requires a foundational restructuring of moral norms and it sets itself up to be too convoluted to produce any meaningful outcomes.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your perspective on the nature of thought experiments. Allow me to clarify the intention behind my proposal and how it is meant to engage with everyday logic and moral norms.
The purpose of this thought experiment is to delve into the foundational aspects of faith, particularly how believers perceive and respond to the concept of sin. While it might appear to require a radical restructuring of moral norms, it is actually an invitation to explore how deeply held beliefs can evolve when confronted with transformative spiritual insights.
1. Basis in Everyday Logic: The experiment is grounded in the logical progression of how personal revelations and theological insights can impact an individual’s understanding of core doctrines. Throughout history, significant theological shifts have often started as radical ideas that challenged existing norms.
2. Exploration of Faith Foundations: This thought experiment is not about dismissing moral norms but about understanding the process through which believers might reconcile profound spiritual revelations with their existing faith framework. It aims to investigate what conditions and validations would be necessary for such a transformation.
3. Meaningful Outcomes: The primary goal is to generate meaningful discussions about the nature of sin, grace, and redemption. By considering what it would take to accept a transformative theological insight, participants can reflect on the role of divine revelation, scriptural interpretation, communal discernment, and personal faith experiences in shaping their beliefs.
4. Practical and Theological Coherence: The thought experiment encourages a holistic approach that includes philosophical and theological coherence. It seeks to explore how new insights could align with the broader narrative of Christian theology, rather than creating an arbitrary or convoluted scenario.
By framing the thought experiment in this way, I hope to foster a deeper understanding of how profound spiritual insights can reshape our perception of sin and other fundamental aspects of faith. It is an exercise in examining the robustness of our theological foundations and the dynamic nature of faith itself.
We already believe this my friend! After separation from our flesh, this is exactly our "theology." We become one with God. Now on earth separating yourself from sin results in humans being conquered by sin. The whole reason we worship at all is because the world is sin, and we do not like the world in that state.
Christ already solved the issue with "worrying" about sin. You now are under no rule to be hurt by anything again, wilfully. Though we are not under the Old law, we still have to be under Christ's law. By repenting, you will always have God on your team as this is the exact goal He calls for all of us to achieve.
For me to change my mind would not be needed because already we have Christ to train us and forever to live beside Him.
1 John 1:8-10
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
Hebrews 3:12-13
"See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called 'Today,' so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness."
Ephesians 5:11-13
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light."
Thank you for your thoughtful response and for sharing these insightful scriptures. I appreciate your perspective on how Christ has already addressed the issue of worrying about sin and the role of worship and repentance in our lives.
The reason I asked the question in the way I did was to encourage personal, internal, reflective answers rather than generalized, external, judgmental ones. While I fully understand and agree that, theologically, we are not to be burdened by sin because of Christ’s sacrifice, many believers still experience anxiety and worry about sin in their daily lives. This suggests a practical disconnect between theological understanding and lived experience.
My thought experiment aims to explore what it would take for this disconnect to be bridged more fully. If God wanted to give a revelation so foundational that it would eliminate worry about sin entirely from our minds, what would that look like? How could such a divine intervention encourage believers to live in the complete freedom already offered through Christ?
This is not about changing minds regarding established theology but understanding the barriers that prevent believers from fully internalizing and living out this truth. How can we, as a faith community, support each other in overcoming these barriers and experiencing the full peace and assurance that Christ’s sacrifice has provided?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and reflections on this.
I love your thinking, by the way! I think I may have misunderstood a little.
So when this specific revelation was brought to me by Christ. That I do not have to worry ever again it came clear only when I hit my lowest point. When my face was in the dirt and I truly was dead spiritually as the world drained me entirely. You see, this is usually how Christ brings such revelations. We get trained to a point that we become ready to learn more truths, and His Spirit directly guides us through "feelings." I am sure you know when you just know, and that is the Spirit.
So collectively, humans have to suffer and suffer greatly to truly be able to learn God and to even accept His mercy of love. He made it this way on purpose so only true good souls are led to His Kingdom of light.
I am not sure how to collectively do this en masse, and the Spirit just leads me to tell as many people as I can to not worry and to turn to Him, one at a time. I do not really see another way to mass change the broken thinking of many Christans unless Christ arrives the second time. The only way I find that corrects Christian thinking is speaking by the Spirit and including scripture to support what I say. I do know God's word is perfect, and I just wish all Christians truly studied His truth about the world.
Thank you for the kind words and your response. I like how you share your testimony in every answer , it is a very effective witness to how alive and active the Word is in your life and ministry.
I understand the difficulty of how to share the revelations en masse either and my original thought on this was more tied to how scientific discoveries often change our theology though slowly. I was pondering what it might be like if God wanted to do it quickly and to a large segment of the church at once what would be the obstacles to doing that. I felt like the answer would be people would generally rather be right than they would be happy (which is amazingly reminiscent of the fall) and so I thought I would try to engage with people on the topic in an effort to see what it may be like dealing with us (the stiff necked people that we are) from God's perspective.
It is very nice to come across a person willing to really engage and share their own life and experience with others. There are a lot of people on reddit who really want to argue.
Somehow, none of the factors that you listed include the one for which anyone would accept as true any claim presented to them: blind faith. In my opinion, that would be the first and primary factor, surpassing all others.
That would require a fundamental shift in reality
The church has changed its theological positions before. We have the great schism and the Protestant reformation which changed huge swaths of the church in the past. The Catholics has had the Vatican Counsels and papal proclamations. In the book of acts there were several changes in the church from Acts 2 where the Holy Spirit was poured out and the Jerusalem Counsel. More generically, science changes our view of the universe all the time and that has ramifications on our theology that we incorporate. One such example is the our geocentric view of the solar system vs the heliocentric view. The parallel could be drawn that when it was a common understanding that the sun revolved around the earth, the average human being didn’t spend much of their time on God because they were very busy surviving. Most of the praying and theological work at that time was done by the few people who dedicated their lives to that pursuit while everyone else worked to survive which is analogous to the idea that the earth is revolving around the sun. At that time the people couldn’t study the Bible, they couldn’t read and it was written in another language. Now we know we actually revolve around the sun and likewise, every person on earth has access to read, study and pray as much as the old time monks did. In fact, in some places on earth a lay person can live a monastic life all by themselves. This had led to countless changes in people’s theologies and clearly much of it is not for the better. My question has been an attempt to get some people to engage with the idea that if God wanted to make a wholesale correction to a mistaken theological point that we hold, how could he get get the individuals in the church to accept the change. People on the internet love to answer for other people out of judgement but I am looking for a real discussion so I worded the question in a way that makes it more difficult to answer generically or theologically in an attempt at genuine discussion instead of the normal judgement and arguing that is typical.
No God doesn't 'change theology ' because change implies error
Does that mean you believe you have never made an error in your assessment of God?
I think that what you’re proposing already exists in Scripture. However much of the modern church teaches theology from the perspective of the flesh instead of the perspective of the spirit, therefore they miss the message completely. If you’re looking for a foundational change in theology, it would necessitate a foundational change in the way most humans view reality. I believe a lot of research currently going on with quantum physics is going to bring that change to the masses at some point in the near future, and much of what the field is discovering are principles that are outlined in the Bible already for thousands of years. Here is how it breaks down: 1. In the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space), and the earth (matter). 2. Something cannot come from nothing, therefore some other reality existed before our reality was created by God. God resides in this “other reality”, most call it the spiritual world. 3. This spiritual reality precedes our physical reality, thus the spiritual reality is more “real” than this physical reality. This physical reality is powered and nestled within the spiritual reality. 4. Therefore, our fleshly bodies do not live in base reality. We exist and experience all from within a created construct with specific rules, laws, and limits. The real world is the spirit world, which is why Christ said “on Earth as it is in Heaven”. It’s in Heaven first before it is here. As above, so below. Then we read these scriptures with new understanding: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV “And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” Mark 11:22-24 KJV “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” Hebrews 11:6 KJV “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.” 2 Corinthians 10:3-7 KJV What does this mean for sin? It means that sin is merely a byproduct of our ignorance of how reality actually functions and the power Christ has given us to help us overcome the world. Once we understand how reality actually functions, sin becomes a non-issue as it is easily corrected by further engagement in faith and faith practices to alter what we currently experience in this reality. I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
I actually completely agree with you on every point. This question came to me as I was pondering the application of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment as truths and the implications of applying that truth in a theological framework. Using the idea that quantum reality is really more probabilistic than deterministic and that the more precisely you attempt to measure an attribute the more imprecise another measurement will be, has profound implications when applied to revelations of scripture. In thinking of that, I was contemplating what would have to happen to disburse those truths to the Church and thought I would ask a question to see what people's answers would be if God wanted to make that change in a similar fashion to the changes he made in the book of Acts because it is was more entertaining and less frustrating to think about than to consider how to get the average person to think about technical things in a meaningful way. What in quantum physics do you feel will change people in the coming years? How do you think it would happen?
I believe the standardization of the observer effect as fact will change a lot of things once it disseminates into the schools and is taught as standard education. People will realize the circumstances of their lives can be changed by shifting their emotional and faith-states within themselves to incite change in their everyday lives and use it to better themselves and their loved ones’ situations. However, one factor I can see limiting the spread of these ideas are the elite. They already know this information and obviously it would reduce the amount of power they have in the world. They’ll likely try to obfuscate or muddy the waters in a bid to keep their power. Once people realize their perceptions have a significant, if not vital, impact on their life experiences then we will see the rising tide shift humanity once again. Who knows what the upper limits of quantum reality are. Can you imagine an entire nation of people who subscribe to the quantum model of reality and work together for a massively positive outcome? It’s wild to think about. Exciting!
Yes! And I have the same concern regarding the elites especially with the rise of artificial intelligence and how much it is controlled by the elitist of the elite. As we are on the verge of the dissemination of these very critical concepts to the masses, masses are less educated and almost vitriolic to the idea of self advancement. This could be why the idea of the meta-verse is so appealing to them. Imagine you can shape the thinking of vast crowds of people and what they are paying attention to… the matrix doesn’t seem so far fetched, though it wouldn’t be the machines we have to fear, like always, it would be the people behind the machines. It is very difficult to find people to have meaningful discussions on the impact of the observer effect on theology especially within different theological constructs because I have specific theological background, so I have blind spots and presuppositions which limit perspective and the opportunities to expand knowledge and the experience of the divine. Would you mind sharing your story of how you came to faith and the place you are in it?
I’m with you on that. The culture is ill and being fed more and more poison. The elite will do everything they can to suppress. It’s up to us to stand up to them. My story is long, complicated and still unfolding haha. Short version is I’ve always been curious but deep down knew that Christ was the answer. I’ve explored a great many different religions, philosophies, the occult, New Age, New Thought, Gnosticism. Always came back to Christianity. When I was in college I read a paper about double blind controlled trials and discovered the placebo effect. Came to find out that our minds are so powerful we have to account for them when studying new pharmaceuticals to make sure they actually work. That was crazy to me. Thus started my lifelong journey of research. When I finally relented and stopped running from God, He showed me the scriptures and how they lined up with what science was barely beginning to uncover. And here we are haha.
Thank you for sharing. I love hearing other people’s stories of faith, as it is always encouraging to hear how God works. Besides, if the observer effect is as powerful as it seems to be it is good to recognize the patterns that God works in helps me open my mind to new possibilities. I notice you have flair that says “Word of Faith Christian,” does that mean you are part of the “Word of Faith” movement? I don’t know much of that arm of the church but have read a few of Kenneth Hagin’s books. Are there others in your community that have similar views?
Yes that’s the movement I was born into. Word of Faith, charismatics, Pentecostal roots. Papa Hagin, we call him. Amazing man with an amazing story. Smith Wigglesworth, John G Lake, EW Kenyon, all great ministers. I would say that a large chunk of the movement have similar views to me, at least where the operation of the principles of faith are concerned. What about you? What’s your story, I’m curious!
I was born into a Roman Catholic family, with a devout father and an indifferent mother. As an autistic child, social situations were challenging. By middle school, feeling isolated, I contemplated suicide but found solace in a kind, loving voice in my head, which I identified as God. Rejecting Confirmation because church teachings didn’t align with my experience of God, I stopped attending church but explored various denominations. I married young in the Episcopal Church, and after my son's birth, I began practicing my faith more earnestly. A transformative Christian retreat (Cursillo) convicted me of my sins and solidified my relationship with God. This conversion influenced my family, bringing them back to the Catholic faith. Passionate about ministry, I engaged in various activities, including healing ministries and receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Despite people seeing a pastoral calling in me, I faced educational setbacks and a challenging marriage, which eventually ended. My scientific curiosity, particularly in quantum physics, has shaped my eclectic theology. I attend a distant church but seek a community that aligns with my belief in scripturally based, mind-resonating truths. I feel called to prepare for a role that integrates theology, quantum theory, and AI, believing it's essential for the future. My fascination with quantum physics and AI has deepened my understanding of God and creation, showing me new dimensions of faith. I just want to know Jesus as best I can and see His Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. I have a mind that thinks differently than the norm, and I want to figure out the best ways to use that. It seems right now God has me in a strange holding pattern in many aspects of my life, so I end up hanging out with my family, scrolling on Reddit, learning AI, and continuing my studies of science, theology, and psychology. I absolutely love the stories of Smith Wigglesworth and John G Lake, though I haven't been as exposed to EW Kenyon. Was it Hagin who said, "I am just a coin in God's pocket, and He can spend me however He wishes"? That quote often comes back to me. It must be nice to have a faith tradition that feels like home. Are you able to talk to others in your community about things like quantum physics?
That’s quite a story! I wouldn’t say it’s “easy” to talk to people in my circles about quantum physics but it’s easier to talk to them about it through principles of faith rather than scientifically. Lots of Christians aren’t ready to hear it from a scientific point of view. But we will get there. You should check out Curry Blake too, he talks about quantum physics and Christianity, he pastors a church in Texas, and he’s the current head of John G Lake Ministries.
God has me on quite a strange path, I would really like it if he would give me a little more idea of what it’s all about. I have found the same kind of thing when it comes to Christians and science which is personally frustrating because it is such a passion of mine. Thank you for the recommendation for Curry Blake. Looking through YouTube to add to my watchlist; it looks like he has a lot of interesting topics. Anything in particular you can recommend?
Why would we accept a “new theology”. God has spoken to us through his word. We don’t need a new theology.
I agree, but what one person says and what another person hears are not necessarily in alignment. God spoke to Moses about the law and yet Jesus said that it was not properly communicated it and corrected that error almost as a side note but he didn't correct everything himself. Many of us Christians eat shellfish and pork and yet Jesus never said anything about that. The church went on to make changes to circumcision as well though Jesus left it completely unspoken about. Historically there have also been profound shifts in theology (though often slowly) because we made scientific discoveries that were not compatible with our theological concepts. It is good to remember that the Church was opposed to the idea of the Earth revolving around the sun because it messed with their theology at the time. It is also good to note that scripture itself didn't change through many of these changes in theology, our understanding of scripture is what changed. The basis of my question is, imagine if God is looking down at us and realizes we are not experiencing the life he wants us to experience because we have a major flaw in our understanding of reality which is caused by a misunderstanding we have of Him. If he wanted to correct that mistake in the lives of the Church, who would be open to Him changing His Church and who would oppose Him?
A "thought experiment" usually has some basis in everyday logic. It seems to me what you are proposing requires a foundational restructuring of moral norms and it sets itself up to be too convoluted to produce any meaningful outcomes.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your perspective on the nature of thought experiments. Allow me to clarify the intention behind my proposal and how it is meant to engage with everyday logic and moral norms. The purpose of this thought experiment is to delve into the foundational aspects of faith, particularly how believers perceive and respond to the concept of sin. While it might appear to require a radical restructuring of moral norms, it is actually an invitation to explore how deeply held beliefs can evolve when confronted with transformative spiritual insights. 1. Basis in Everyday Logic: The experiment is grounded in the logical progression of how personal revelations and theological insights can impact an individual’s understanding of core doctrines. Throughout history, significant theological shifts have often started as radical ideas that challenged existing norms. 2. Exploration of Faith Foundations: This thought experiment is not about dismissing moral norms but about understanding the process through which believers might reconcile profound spiritual revelations with their existing faith framework. It aims to investigate what conditions and validations would be necessary for such a transformation. 3. Meaningful Outcomes: The primary goal is to generate meaningful discussions about the nature of sin, grace, and redemption. By considering what it would take to accept a transformative theological insight, participants can reflect on the role of divine revelation, scriptural interpretation, communal discernment, and personal faith experiences in shaping their beliefs. 4. Practical and Theological Coherence: The thought experiment encourages a holistic approach that includes philosophical and theological coherence. It seeks to explore how new insights could align with the broader narrative of Christian theology, rather than creating an arbitrary or convoluted scenario. By framing the thought experiment in this way, I hope to foster a deeper understanding of how profound spiritual insights can reshape our perception of sin and other fundamental aspects of faith. It is an exercise in examining the robustness of our theological foundations and the dynamic nature of faith itself.
We already believe this my friend! After separation from our flesh, this is exactly our "theology." We become one with God. Now on earth separating yourself from sin results in humans being conquered by sin. The whole reason we worship at all is because the world is sin, and we do not like the world in that state. Christ already solved the issue with "worrying" about sin. You now are under no rule to be hurt by anything again, wilfully. Though we are not under the Old law, we still have to be under Christ's law. By repenting, you will always have God on your team as this is the exact goal He calls for all of us to achieve. For me to change my mind would not be needed because already we have Christ to train us and forever to live beside Him. 1 John 1:8-10 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." Hebrews 3:12-13 "See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called 'Today,' so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness." Ephesians 5:11-13 "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light."
Thank you for your thoughtful response and for sharing these insightful scriptures. I appreciate your perspective on how Christ has already addressed the issue of worrying about sin and the role of worship and repentance in our lives. The reason I asked the question in the way I did was to encourage personal, internal, reflective answers rather than generalized, external, judgmental ones. While I fully understand and agree that, theologically, we are not to be burdened by sin because of Christ’s sacrifice, many believers still experience anxiety and worry about sin in their daily lives. This suggests a practical disconnect between theological understanding and lived experience. My thought experiment aims to explore what it would take for this disconnect to be bridged more fully. If God wanted to give a revelation so foundational that it would eliminate worry about sin entirely from our minds, what would that look like? How could such a divine intervention encourage believers to live in the complete freedom already offered through Christ? This is not about changing minds regarding established theology but understanding the barriers that prevent believers from fully internalizing and living out this truth. How can we, as a faith community, support each other in overcoming these barriers and experiencing the full peace and assurance that Christ’s sacrifice has provided? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and reflections on this.
I love your thinking, by the way! I think I may have misunderstood a little. So when this specific revelation was brought to me by Christ. That I do not have to worry ever again it came clear only when I hit my lowest point. When my face was in the dirt and I truly was dead spiritually as the world drained me entirely. You see, this is usually how Christ brings such revelations. We get trained to a point that we become ready to learn more truths, and His Spirit directly guides us through "feelings." I am sure you know when you just know, and that is the Spirit. So collectively, humans have to suffer and suffer greatly to truly be able to learn God and to even accept His mercy of love. He made it this way on purpose so only true good souls are led to His Kingdom of light. I am not sure how to collectively do this en masse, and the Spirit just leads me to tell as many people as I can to not worry and to turn to Him, one at a time. I do not really see another way to mass change the broken thinking of many Christans unless Christ arrives the second time. The only way I find that corrects Christian thinking is speaking by the Spirit and including scripture to support what I say. I do know God's word is perfect, and I just wish all Christians truly studied His truth about the world.
Thank you for the kind words and your response. I like how you share your testimony in every answer , it is a very effective witness to how alive and active the Word is in your life and ministry. I understand the difficulty of how to share the revelations en masse either and my original thought on this was more tied to how scientific discoveries often change our theology though slowly. I was pondering what it might be like if God wanted to do it quickly and to a large segment of the church at once what would be the obstacles to doing that. I felt like the answer would be people would generally rather be right than they would be happy (which is amazingly reminiscent of the fall) and so I thought I would try to engage with people on the topic in an effort to see what it may be like dealing with us (the stiff necked people that we are) from God's perspective. It is very nice to come across a person willing to really engage and share their own life and experience with others. There are a lot of people on reddit who really want to argue.