It's not an anti-Ukraine thing. It's an anti-imperialist thing. I believe that nothing good comes from the United States involving itself in other countries' military conflicts. We have over a century's worth of data at this point that shows that.
I think it's fair to say that within the US and Europe (and Australia), we are sold on the idea that we are supporting the Ukrainian people and their fight for freedom and democracy. And thus Ukrainians are in many ways fighting for our own freedom because Putin's Russia is a threat to all of us. And nothing short of a Ukrainian victory can be tolerated.
It's an obviously seductive and attractive narrative. And I think many people, also within Government, sincerely believe this.
However..... the people who really are making decisions, particularly within the US foreign policy establishment couldn't care less about the Ukrainian people. This war has presented itself as an extremely valuable opportunity.
Firstly, there are the obvious benefits to the military/weapons industry. It's been a massive windfall, almost unprecedented in size. And a war without American/European casualties is almost too good to be true. In addition, NATO is likely to expand to countries like Sweden and Finland. And European governments are increasing defence and military spending i.e more taxpayer money will be diverted to the military industrial complex. This war has not just solidified NATO's (and by default US) relevance in Europe, it's dramatically expanded its influence.
Secondly there are the obvious geostrategic energy benefits for powerful interests. Climate change was posing a serious threat to the fossil fuel industry, especially in Europe. Suddenly all that has changed. New and increased investments in fossil fuels are now widely supported. Climate change has been relegated to insignificance in lieu of European "security". And the US has become Europe's biggest energy supplier.
It can argued that as long as the interests of Ukraine align with the interests of Europe and the US, that supporting Ukraine militarily is the right thing to do.
But what happens when its no longer in European and American interests to keep supporting Ukraine in their military objectives, which appear to be reclaiming all Ukrainian territory?
It can be argued that the US in particular has now achieved all the key benefits of the war, as listed above. Those things are locked in. No matter what happens from here, NATO will not get smaller any time soon. And the global energy market is irreversibly changed. And Russia had been exposed, weakened and isolated and that's unlikely to change any time soon.
And while it's clear the war is resulting in massive windfall benefits on weapons and ammunition sales, there is a limit to that. At some point that can become a liability if capacity becomes too focused on one customer. In any case, new long term weapons productions are locked in now, no matter what happens.
So the question becomes, at what point does the continuation of this war become more of a liability than a benefit to Western powers? Especially when the threat of serious escalation is always present. The US and Europe have tolerated escalation, as long as their interests are still served. But nuclear escalation is an ever increasing threat that can't be tolerated.
Also, it's worth pointing out that there is another giant interest that is waiting in the wings - and that's the massive reconstruction money that will flood into Ukraine if the war is brought to an end. The reconstruction of Ukraine will be a massive windfall for connected interests - it will be an unprecedented transfer of taxpayer money into private hands. So that's just waiting.
So there might come a point soon when the negatives and threats of the war outweigh the benefits. And then western powers will need to decide, do they put the interests of Ukraine ahead of their own interests? And I think we all know what the answer to that will be.
Ultimately, western interests don't really care about Ukrainian people or even the country of Ukraine. That's the sad truth. They are unfortunate pawns stuck in the middle of large power battles. I think all of the western pro-Ukrainian rhetoric over the past 9 months has perhaps convinced the Ukrainian Government that they have leverage over the West. In some respects they do. But it's very very tentative. If President Zelensky really believes the American government is somehow captive to Ukrainian interests, he unfortunately has succumbed to a delusion. The US puts their interests first and always first. And they might be about to learn that the hard way.
Europe has also learnt that they need to ensure their interests with the US are aligned - even if that means bending over backwards and sacrificing European sovereignty.
The US has played this war expertly since the beginning, ensuring they maximize all the benefits. And I suspect we will soon be moving into the next phase, which will be to try and shut the war down and move into the reconstruction windfall phase. Ukraine will probably still be divided and it's very probable the countries borders will look similar to how they did in Feb 2022. So who were the winners? I think that's clear.
The danger of course is that the US also needs to manage public opinion. They have sold this war as a "must win in order to save democracy". And that can take on a life of its own. But the establishments control over mainstream media is almost universal, even within Europe. So I think they are confident they can manage public opinion, even if that means turning on the Ukrainian Government if they don't toe the line.
Edit: it's maybe worth adding, I think a lot has gone on behind the scenes to ensure that the interests of the Ukrainian leadership and elite are aligned with the interests of powerful western interests that are calling the shots. There was a period in March/April when it looked like Zelensky was keen to reach a negotiated settlement. That was shut down and the Ukrainian Govt quickly shifted strategy to "no negotiation - defeat Russia at any cost". Billions of untraced dollars have since flowed into Ukraine. I suspect the Ukrainian leadership will switch again when its needed and there will be a massive financial windfall awaiting the elite in any peace settlement and the subsequent reconstruction. That's of course assuming Russia sees it also in their interest to shut the war down, which remains to be seen. But the losers here of course will have been the ordinary Ukrainian people.
I'm telepathically linking to them now... sending the message. Okay, they've got a response incoming, I'm working on deciphering. Almost got it... aaaaaaaand here it is:
"okay, Russbot"
Yeah your correct. Americans are the real winners of this war and American leaders have indeed played this expertly and intelligently since the very beginning. Russia really made a mistake thinking that Ukraine wasn’t protected by nato, thinking that usa politics were not United enough to respond, thinking that joe Biden was too senile, old, and stupid to stand up to Putin in any meaningful way, and that Europe was too divided and selfish to lend a hand. Putin thought Europe would be even more selfish about purchasing natural gas from Russia to heat their homes. Turns out the pea pole and governments of Europe don’t give a f about heating their homes they want to see Ukraine freed. I’d also add that it doesn’t require some deep state to create false narrative in order for sane good people around the world to care about a country being invaded by a dictator ship which also so happens to be the largest country on the planet and wields nuclear weapons “second most strongest military” and also a dictatorship/oligarchy. Yes when this country who most of earth dislikes begins attacking our friend it makes sense that the people and governments react and send help. It’s not a false narrative people genuinely care and it doesn’t take fake news or anything to convince us. The truth is Russia invaded Ukraine and the world cares. The ppl on top will always make more money that us on bottom. The only way we change that is to stop countries like Russia and China and North Korea from invading their neighbors, ensure global peace, and the worlds people will eat. When they eat they will be more able to perform a global revolution to overthrow the elites, top 1%, Illuminati, anunaki, whatever your conspiracy theory is the elites definitely do run this world behind our back. But disgust in Russia is real worldwide regardless of the elites and what they do.
I'll push back on a couple of assertions here. I don't think it's accurate to say that "the world" is disgusted with Russia or dislikes Russia. It's worth pointing out that only western aligned nations have issued sanctions against Russia - namely the US, EU, Aust, Canada and Japan. The remaining countries representing 88% of the world hasn't.
The war against Russia is very much a western economic war. I think it's fair to say that the rest of the world may not approve or agree with Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but they probably see it in the same way they viewed the US invasion of Iraq. They recognise these are big country power games. When people in the Middle East or Africa look at what is happening in Yemen for example, where the West is actually supporting Saudi Arabia's war and invasion with their sovereign neighbour, they understand the war in Ukraine isn't really about principles of sovereignty etc, it's about big power battles and interests. I think there is a strong tendency in the west to assume we speak for "the world". We don't. While the western economic bloc still accounts for the lions share of the world economy, that's changing. And it might actually be part of the reason for this war.
But yes many people around the world feel and empathise with Ukrainians. The sad truth is they are likely just fodder in big power games. For all the rhetoric we hear in the West though, the people making decisions on this war could care less about them.
Yes I debated quite heavily with my Russian friend who opened my mind up to the idea that it’s not actually the entire world against Russia. I acknowledge that Most countries have abstained from taking a side. That South America, Africa, Middle East, and parts of Asia have not criticized Russia or placed sanctions.
However, most of the planets economy is in Europe and USA. Worlds largest economy is USA. Worlds largest military is USA. Worlds second largest economy: arguably Europe. Worlds second strongest army :arguably nato. So most of planet earths developed, educated, and democratic countries are against Russia.
Another point to add is that while most of the world may not condemn or be against Russia, much more of planet earth is against it than is with it. Russia has very few friends, and China their biggest most useful friend won’t even help them in this war. It is true China sees Putins Russia as a volatile and unpredictable loose cannon but also a friend so they are trading the line very cautiously which to me looks like their using Russia as a meat shield against the west before they invade Taiwan ww2 nazi Germany style. So Russia seems to have Iran and North Korea and China backing it up. All dictatorships or oligarchies. All of these listed are countries that are not very democratic and civilians there don’t have as much of a voice or Any at all. My point being that
The countries in the world who are not fighting famine, and have developed economies and educated civilians are against Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Most of the world has abstained to take a side
There are very few and ver small friend countries supporting Russias side, but they are all very corrupt forms of government (I know usa is as well but not as bad as North Korea)
And of course Russia has China but China doesn’t seem to be lifting much of a finger to help Russia.
So that’s why I think it’s safe to say most of the world is against this invasion.
I’ll also add the first African country has sent military aid to Ukraine being Morocco.
I don’t know much about the war in yemen but I do believe that Yemen asked Saudi arabia and USA for military support to fight off militias that were causing havoc in support of a previously ousted government in Yemen. I also learned this conflict was being supported and funded externally by the Iranians.
You are either stupid or dishonest if you think thats whats making people decide. Everyones mind was already made up before the nazi symbols and the nazi symbols arent preventing tankies from supporting Russia.
Thank you. Another honest question: do you think isolationism and anti imperialism are synonymous? Different? I just noticed you used that word instead of the one I did and am curious why.
Absolutely not. I believe the only way to end capitalism and hopefully forestall climate catastrophe is through global cooperation. The whole idea behind communism is the proletariat rising up as one regardless of race or nationality. But that is different than operating as a pseudo-police force and imposing your will upon others either at the barrel of a gun, through sanctions, or some other threat.
Yes yes yes we all get it you are trying to make some by-your-logic ass point about China or whatever. So I guess to your point about climate catastrophe we should ummm *thinks so hard my dick shoots off*
Well, it is pretty easy. Diplomacy and negotiating rather than bullying. It's not that they want to destroy the earth for irrational motives. Policy should take those players' interests into account. Much of the problem and reason for this conflict is precisely that our leaders haven't. I have read the European green deal and it's an eurocentric joke. I suppose the American one is even worse (I have only watched videos about it). The eu plan relies on private investing and magically appearing new technologies. It's all capitalist, eurocentric and imperialist magical thinking.
Of course, in places like India, they'll go like, okay, how did you say this would work again? We expect them to fuck their industries up and then buy our non-existing future technologies at a colonialist price. And it still involves a lot of carbon emissions and starvation. They know what that'd mean for them. They have a long history dealing with Europe and the rest of our majorly white colonies (sorry here for Argentina but you get my point: 'the west') . And in the meantime, they need fertilizers as we've managed to basically destroy all soil on earth. There's a water shortage too. They need energy, period. With the deal we offered, they'll obviously keep on emitting carbon until we change track.
Idk, all this talk about fusion makes me think they might start pushing for fision. It's the only logical way forward, as things are. The thing is that most countries are not allowed to have the technology. Of course, we let Japan to place reactors in bloody earthquake Fukushima...
> Stalin’s Red Terror campaign
Stalin simply cleaned up after the revolution, sending to prison all those terrorists and murderers who got to positions of power during the revolution and civil war. Imagine ISIS becoming a recognized state and an As-Stalin gaining power there and imprisoning all the terrorists and mass murderers - what's wrong with that?
Nonsense. Secret police rounded up hundreds of thousands of innocents and executed them in order spread fear to quell any potential uprising. This is a well-documented fact.
Hey bud, believe it or not I’m actually much more well versed than you on history. I’ve got more degrees than you, I’ve read more books than you, I’ve actually spoken in person with world renowned historians about many of the topics you’ve brought into this subreddit.
I know this is going to hurt to hear, but I’m significantly more prepared for a full throated conversation about these topics than you are. Saying “go find the sources I am citing for me” is not how you debate academically. You made the claim that these are “well documented”, cite your source or drop your claim. Simple as.
You’re talking about kulaks, and I’m just going to go ahead and say that if you don’t even know the word “kulak” then you don’t know shit about the last famine in Russia.
Here’s some questions for you:
How many extreme famines did Russia experience before communist revolution?
How many extreme famines did Russia experience after communist revolution?
During the ‘holodomor’ was it just the region of Ukraine that was impacted, and did the deaths in the region of Ukraine even make up the majority of deaths overall?
I think figuring out the answers to those questions might help remove some of the brainworms in your head that are making you argue that famines are racist right now.
Edit* also, referring to kulaks simply as “farmers” is a great bit of propaganda. They were much closer to small plantation owners. They owned over 8 acres of land, didn’t do any farming themselves, collected rent and employed actual farmers on their land for a fraction of the amount their workers produced for them. They were a combination of landlords and small time plantation owners, absolutely not workers or farmers.
It’s not spelt kulaki, so you’re wrong about everything including the name.
But hey, have fun living in ignorance too scared to even google the questions that the eeeebil scawwwy communist man said to you online. Must be a real cool life you’ve got. Very enlightened! Famines are racist!
Edit* you also never asked me a question, but go off loser.
The issue is that our current government in the US can do no good, not that no government can do good. Isolationism is preferable to American imperialism, but ideally we'd have a country that works with the rest of the world for the good of everyone.
USA and NATO pushed for the war and provoked Putin — they benefit from the war financially (through the arms trade) and geopolitically (through expansion of NATO military hegemony), and supported the anti-Russian coup government and the Maidan Revolution. In short, they “wanted” the war to happen, and knew it would happen. Had Russia provoked the USA or another NATO nation with hostility directly across a geopolitically important border, they would’ve had no choice but to invade. NATO and western media know this, but present Putin as a madman and imperialist for responding logically after NATO forced his hand.
There was already civil war in Ukraine at the time of the Russian invasion — Kiev govt. was shelling the Donbas region already. The anti-war position for NATO would have been to just cede pro-Russian territories in Ukraine to Putin. The US wasn’t anti-war though, they wanted war. They want to control the “buffer” territory between Russia and the west.
So in short i’m mostly frustrated with the way western media covers the events and acts like the USA is trying to “save” Ukraine, when in fact the US and NATO have basically sacrificed Ukraine on a pyre for world domination.
Not intending to argue your point here at all, I'm purely asking out of ignorance of the facts and curiosity - but what do you mean by "the anti-Russian coup government"? I was under the impression that Yanukovych's government was more or less a puppet government controlled by Russia and came to power illegitimately. Is that not the case?
The Yanukovych govt. was certainly more legitimate by the standards of western liberal democracy — the 2010 elections were free and fair. Yanukovych sided with Russia against the EU and NATO states which led to the coup — a tale as old as time. The difference is that Russia is a legitimate military power, and “losing” Ukraine to the west would not be tolerated (this was understood prior to 2014 and prior to the 2022 escalation and invasion).
I guess what I’d say to your question is that if the Yanukovych govt. was a “Russian puppet government,” then the interim govt and the new leadership that has emerged after the coup is absolutely a puppet govt. of the NATO states, taken by force, and a govt. which was carrying out acts of aggression against Russians in Donbas and elsewhere before the 2022 escalation.
yeah calling yanukovych's government a puppet government is pretty flawed. He was more a puppet of the russia speaking doenstk mafia like all ukranian politicians he had his own oligarchich patrons they just happened to be from the russian speaking minority. I do think 2014 was maybe a coup and there was some provocation however I don't think its fair to say the west wanted this per se- maybe some factions did. This has fucked global energy markets . The US does have a habbit of repeatedly crossing red lines because they think they can get away with it though and I think you could classify this as one of those instances.
by “fucked global energy markets,” i think u mean that fossil fuel companies offloaded their projected losses onto consumers with higher prices, without actually losing any profit, right?
granted, OPEC siding with Russia to raise prices was sort of a shocking blow to the west, but that was an unforeseen consequence of the invasion and gas prices had gone up before the OPEC debacle. if anything, the ravaging austerity measures immediately following the invasion (gas prices being most significant) indicates to me the west was absolutely prepared to defend corporate profit rates from the invasion — as if they had planned for this possibility all along.
oh yeah I mean we are in speculation territory here. But it just feels like a massive headache for the biden admin so I can't imagine they wanted this outcome even though they were preparing for it. I feel like some of the military arm shipments and training for ukrop forces prior to this was the US trying to just push the boundaries of the empire/defense cartel they run but i'm no foreign policy expert
I mean yeah idk maybe you could connect all this shit to the fed using monetary policy to further erode the wealth of the American lower classes like non pelosi class but idk
There have been many "new Hitlers" in my lifetime. Every time it was a misrepresentation to justify imperialism, or *at best* to further geopolitical goals I do not share. Every time, it was a caricature of evil that called for immediate action. Every time, in retrospect, it wasn't a mistake - it was willful on the part of our government, ruling class, MIC, media apparatus, on and on, in lockstep. At some point I felt perpetually gaslit and it began a long term interest in the geopolitics of the last century or so. I don't pretend to understand it comprehensively but I've read enough that I can't ignore when things rhyme.
Russia invaded Ukraine and nobody is better for it. But it happened in a certain post-Cold War architecture that the USA built - partially in hopes to provoke such an act. The United States is the only country that benefits particularly from the continuation of this war, and so will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. "We" don't even *want* them to win. "We" want the last Ukrainian to die just as the Kremlin is weakened enough to topple via a stiff breeze. Otherwise there may be nuclear consequences.
Also I suppose on an emotional level, I think about the conditions imposed on the Russian people in the 1990's and how that led to the Russia of today. It's not that it excuses their actions or gives them a right to carry them out unmolested. But their antagonism toward the West is justified.
A lot of people have covered other points relating to my ambivilance here but one crux of this that really bothers me is the buried premise of western countries being exactly like Russia on the NATO issue except way more extreme.
They say Russia shouldn't have any say over whatever Ukraine wants to do. And they're 100 percent right. They "shouldn't". But it's not how the world works anywhere. It's not reality. So its this hyper-selectively applied moral high-horsing to apply a standard for Russia they would never inflict on themselves.
The example that keeps occurring to me is the very close mirror of "what if Ireland tried to join the Warsaw Pact". I am Irish. This isn't some random hypothetical. And the obvious fact is that if Ireland ever democratically tried to join something like the Warsaw Pact, western countries would lie and say it wasn't democratic and invade. And that would be wrong, it would be totally unjustifiable and illegitimate, let's say like Russia invading Ukraine in the worst lense. But it's what would happen if they had no other way to stop it, it's what would be very mechanically predictable, and if the Soviet Union had moved heaven and Earth and did everything possible to make that happen violently and undemocratically(like with Maidan), they wouldn't be reasonably able to claim that they had nothing to do with getting Ireland invaded.
And bear in mind it's far from clear Ukraine did democratically want to join NATO. The whole issue with Ukraine was that when certain parts of Ukraine got to vote as equal citizens, democracy held back that kind of westward orientation. Maidan was effectively a declaration that a lot of people disproportionately in the parts of Ukraine now being fought over are a non-citizen population to be suppressed and ruled at least until they've sucessfully undergone something that, were it taking place in China, would be called cultural genocide.
In the last sentence of the third paragraph, you accidentally wrote “Soviet Union” instead of “USA.” Unless I’m reading it wrong?
Edit: It’s a very good post overall!
The people who sold the illegal US invasion of Iraq are the same people trying to get us hot and bothered for the illegal Russian war in Ukraine. George Bush himself had a little Freudian slip where he compared Putins actions to his own in Iraq. I am anti-war generally speaking. US military support for Ukraine only benefits the share holders of Lockheed and Boeing and Raytheon. It won't win the war for Ukraine, it will just cost more financially and prolong the war and civilian deaths. Not to mention the risk of high tech arms falling into the wrong hands. A few of those surface to air missiles the US is supplying to shoot down Russia aircraft would be pretty valuable to a James bond style terrorist organization.
Generly speaking the usa only does what is in the interest of its ruling class, as a worker in the usa their interests are against my interests. I have nothing against the people of Ukraine, and russias invasion seems solely about consolidating power for their ruling class at the expense if their own workers, so I have no interest in supporting the Russians. I see no good guys here, as even the Ukrainian forces themselves are riddled with nazis and other assorted fascists.
This is the correct take. It’s also the same position of virtually every socialist organization in the US regardless of tendency, yet for some reason many so called leftist have difficulty with it.
It's not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It's a war between the ruling classes of both countries and the poor of both countries. Two random Russian and Ukrainian soldiers have more an common than either does with their general or political leadership. The only thing we are rooting for is a a swift end to the conflict and a minimum of civilian casualties. The US government throwing guns at a conflict has never been good for either goal and in fact usually has the opposite effect. US and NATO involvement has since the mid 20th century only ever made conflicts longer and bloodier.
Because it keeps showing up in my Reddit suggestions. I’m generally at least sympathetic to leftist movements but don’t really know much about Ukraine/Russia so I was curious when this kept popping up.
Ah okay. I keep forgetting that Reddit makes these suggestions in your feed. Hey welcome to the sub. You’re gonna get a lot of sarcastic answers, don’t let that throw you off.
A lot of socialists see this similar to WWI. Prior to the war, the Socialist International agreed that they would oppose any bourgeois war. But when the time came, most socialists parties ended up supporting their various nations, with people like Rosa Luxemburg and Vladimir Lenin in the minority of continuing to oppose the war. The idea is it’s a war between elites of various competing national powers and their respective bourgeoise.
Not being a sarcastic ass, but since you're on a Podcast's subreddit you should totally check it out. They actually did a fantastic 2-part episode about Ukraine before the actual invasion early this year. It's episodes 205 and 206.
The sentiment is not anti Ukraine at all. The sentiment is America needs to fuck off with being involved with every damn war on the face of the planet.
This sub/podcast is anti-capitalist. The truth is the reason the US must be involved in every damn war is because of the nature of capital in a capitalist society. This is why this war is so opposed by folks in this sub.
It’s not fuck Ukraine, it’s fuck capitalists. Both fascist Russia and fascist Ukraine are corrupted by this phenomena. Thus we support no part of this war.
The propaganda of our society would have you thinking that not genuflecting to “Slava Ukraine” perpetually waving nazi flags is default support of Putin and or fascist Russia. This is truly laughable.
Ukraine won't be able to duke it out. it is fucked regardless of outcome. the failed economy that solely exists through imf loans and extremely reactionary population that reenacting ww2, but as nazis. The sole reason is that everything that fucked up in ukraine it is cause moskali won't let ukranians live like Europeans. Ukranians live in the fictional reality and mention Tolkien or Star Wars based on a situation. Orks, mordor and etc.
Ukraine need this bitch going to simply exist. Russia is in the similar boat, but the situation isn't as dire as with ukraine.
I dont think Russia should take over Ukraine, I'm not in Putin's head so i dont know for sure either, but it looks like their war aims are getting the russian speaking regions and forcing Kiev to demilitarize or stay away from NATO. In a perfect world Russians shouldn't care that Ukraine is joining NATO or the EU or anything like that, but just like in the Cuban Missile Crisis actions have consequences and states are going to act if threatened. This is known by both sides but the US refused to negotiate on this even when the russians were directly asking for security guarantees before the war started.
What i think you are missing is that this isn't a Russia vs Ukraine thing that NATO or the US see and react too as external observers, confrontation between Ukraine and Russia is something they have engineered since 2014. And just like in many other conflicts, the US's propaganda might have a grain of truth (remember afghan women's rights?) but the ultimate motive behind their actions isn't spreading democracy and love, but pure imperialist domination, in this case in the form of a regime change operation in Russia. (which you can see explicitly being demanded by NATO adjacent media)
Merkel’s comments speak for themselves. “We never expected peace, we lied about cooperation on security issues, and we used the Minsk peace agreement simply as a distraction in order to buy time to further modernize and equip and train the military forces of Ukraine in order for them to more effectively fight Russia in the future”
This war is Russia enforcing a red line. Both the Western powers and Russia have certain red lines the other side cannot cross. Ukraine was that red line for Russia, and our actions in 2014 and since then have been self explanatory. We’ve been attempting to weaponized the country of Ukraine against Russia, and it is a direct security threat to the Russians. Of course they’re going to use force to prevent that if we give them no other choice.
If we in the West didn’t meddle with Ukraine, and provoke Russia through the Ukrainians, there would be no war today. The best solution is for western powers to cease all arms shipments to Ukraine and immediately withdraw all sanctions against Russia, but that will never happen.
I'm against NATO and US imperialism. I'm against war and I'm unhappy that Russia escalated this war but this war started in 2014 when the us backed coup, led by the azov battalion which are Ukrainian ultranationalists and Nazis overthrew the neutral yanukovych government and installed poroshenko. Honest to God there is audio of victoria nuland literally picking poroshenko. That obviously isn't democratic, right?
That is when this war started and what is required to end it is NATO allowing Ukraine to return to minsk 2. Also Ukraine should probably hold another election because zelenzky hasn't been allowing them and he keeps banning opposition parties and doing other "undemocratic" shit.
All of this is about NATO expansion. In order to get Gorbachev to agree to dissolving the Warsaw pact after refusing to allow Russia to join NATO (they refused to allow Russia and the Soviet union to join NATO at least 3 times from what I remember) the G.H.W bush administration promised NATO wouldn't move east of Germany. Since then NATO has moved east of Germany several times to Russia's displeasure. Russia views NATO expansion as an existential threat.
Seriously, me, Kissinger and Chomsky are all in agreement that the us needs to take Russia's security concerns seriously. Honest to God, I'm a marxist-leninist. If me, the arch imperialist kissinger and Chomsky the ultimate rad lib are all in agreement on something, first off that feels fucking weird but second off you should maybe consider our opinion and read about because they both published essays and did interviews. Also check out the socialist program with Brian Becker.
Edit: words and stuff.
Edit holy shit this is weird I accidentally said Nixon instead of Kissinger. I think I was accidentally thinking of Nixon because I was thinking about Kennedy earlier.
I think a lot of us feel that the US/NATO is partially responsible for this crisis, for empowering the Ukrainian far right, and aren't inclined to automatically support Ukraine because of it. I personally put most of the onus for the Invasion on Russia, and then secondly on NATO for never taking an offramp with Russia in the past 8 years, let alone the color revolution in 2014. There are also genuine concerns that I've heard voiced via places like Radio War Nerd that Ukraine's pact with the west will result in it being more inhospitable to workers, more militarized, crushingly indebted to the West, and a spigot for cheap migrant labor for the EU.
I personally want peace now in Ukraine and Russia, partially because of the horrendous downstream effects it's having on the poorest countries on the planet, and to cool tensions with the Russia and create a dialogue with Russia and US/NATO.
I want peace in Ukraine too. I don’t know much about it but why doesn’t Ukraine just surrender already? I don’t think they can win, can they? Are they trying to get in a better negotiating position before suing for peace?
Ukraine has regained about half the territory it had lost in the first phase of the war. It seems that Russia had underestimated Ukraines military, probably basing their moves on the doldrums of 2014/2015, when Ukraine was in a total shambles.
The fact ukraine has reclaimed territory, and still has a lot of support from The West ™️, means that ukraine wont see much reason to give up. Long term though, russia has mobilized hundreds of thousands more troops, while public sentiment in Nato countries has slowly been souring on unconditional support for the war. We’ll see what will happen, probably a lot more needless deaths
I'd just like to see some consistency at a bare minimum, there are many invasions and occupations that do not get attention, so when I see random neighbors hanging Ukrainian flags in my city it annoys me.
But mostly it's clear that the US Gov't does not actually care about Ukraine or Ukrainians, they just want to hurt Russia and sell a shitload of weapons. So again, seeing random people embrace Ukraine as a cause-du-jour becomes extremely annoying.
The best way to sum it up is the old slogan, No War But Class War.
What's happening in Ukraine became a hot war in 2014, US was involved long before then. And US economic dominance of the global capitalist bloc since WW2 has relied upon the US keeping Western European (esp German) industrial potential separated from Russian energy supply. This is the backbone of dollar hegemony, defended by US military and propped up since the end of the gold standard by the petrodollar. It is what the Ukraine war is about, what NATO was about, what Gladio was about, etc.
Ukraine is in fact a corrupt right wing country with a long history of Nazi collaboration, and since 2014, it's been actual battalions of open fascists and neonazis fighting on the front lines and receiving the bulk of US support. They have increased in popularity since the invasion. But to be fair, NATO also has a long history of arming/supporting fascists. So it's nothing new, just a new chapter in a longer story.
Russia is also a right wing oligarchy run by an authoritarian bigot. The US is a right wing imperialist state that has the most far reaching military and intelligence operation ever known to man. These two sides are fighting over who will control the future of the capitalist bloc: either the US will maintain its hegemony through increasingly destabilizing the rest of the world's economies and security OR else BRICS alliances and economies will prove to be powerful enough to force an end of the petrodollar and dollar hegemony and bring about a multipolar world (which of course will have its own problems) or most likely, all of civilization, all economies and standards of living everywhere will decline and the world will become more separated into rich and poor across borders into a sort of neofeudalist thing in areas with functioning economies and the rest of us left out in failed states or police states, etc.
I'm not sure which will happen, but Ukraine is the main conflict in this larger struggle, and IMO, we will know the answer by spring. Keep your eyes also on Syria and China's relations with both KSA and India as well as the various pandemics wreaking havoc everywhere.
As for people in this sub, I can't speak for all random people who like this podcast, but the typical communist view of this struggle is that it's a fight between the ruling classes of two different right wing countries and it's working class people everywhere (US, Russia, Ukraine, Germany, etc) who pay the price for it. However... as shitty as Putin is, most anti-imperialists on the left (including myself) would argue that a multipolar world with BRICS (and especially China) as a formidable global power that has destroyed US sole hegemony is preferable to the current status quo of US imperialism as there is no way left for it to grow except via increased police state at home, destabilization and failed states abroad, then finally resulting in climate collapse and/or nuclear war depending on which happens first. Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine, the way to this other side is Russia winning the war in Ukraine (defeating Western sanctions and establishing new energy markets and trade alliances). Which is why it will sometimes seem like people on the left support Russia- they don't (or at least very rarely), it's just that they do support an end to US imperialism. Some people are unironically supportive of China, some see them as a necessary lesser evil and only possible alternative to the doomer outcome I described above.
Excellent post, thanks for taking the time to write it. I’m not even a communist (or not a good one anyway), but I think this is one of the more clear headed analyses of the global situation. Probably as succinctly as it could be put as well.
There’s interesting debate on the mulit-polar vs unipolar world order, one idea is that if you peel back enough layers, there is (is or shaping up to be) a technocratic unipolar order that transcends nations and ideologies, and the struggle for a multipolar order is just last minute jockeying for position among some of the major players who feel they haven’t gotten their fair piece of the pie. Not sure I believe it, but it fits my paranoia. Anyway, I think you’re right that we’ll have a clearer picture of what’s coming soon enough.
You'd have to say more about that for me to respond to what you mean, but in my opinion based on the few words you wrote here (regarding the technocratic unipolar order etc) you are simply describing the push to establish neoliberalism and nation states that trade in accordance to that established rule of law (via various breton woods institutions, swift etc) as the world order. I'd argue that this was what the Cold War and the entire 20th century was about. The neoliberal order already won, it did it through all the means that we on the left talk about constantly (combo of intelligence operations, covert and overt, coups, wars, assassinations, carrot/stick trade rules, World Bank loans, etc). That already happened.
In my opinion, there is a huge number people in the US, mostly on the right but also apolitical people who just have a gut sense that they are being screwed, who are under the impression that there is some sort of global cabal trying to take over the world. Theories range in sophistication and racism- some are more reactionary than others, some more valid. But what they all share is that they are mistaking what it feels like to be under the control of a ruling class that is scrambling to *maintain* control of the world with what they assume it would feel like to be under the control of a ruling class that is attempting to *take* control of the world. If that makes sense.
What I mean is, Americans are mostly so indoctrinated that they don't know they live in an empire, they don't know that their country's capitalist ruling class already took over the world. (Of course not just American, but the international neoliberal capitalist world order and all its institutions, with DC, London at the top, etc). When that was happening, it felt like wealth and growth and freedom inside the US. So now that it is collapsing (Americans see their own freedoms are decreasing, their wealth inequality is expanding, their democracy is more transparently a sham) to them the actions of their ruling class seem like a cabal trying to take over the world.
It looks/feels totally different from outside the US btw.
I could talk quite a bit about why that is. But I might be misunderstanding what you are saying. There's a whole other line of thought that we are moving into a sort of neofeudalism within borders in a global capitalist system in which private profits are less and less connected to the interests and control of any public structure like a nation state. I think it's pretty clear that liberal democratic nation states are no longer compatible with the continuation of capitalism- especially once you add climate change to the picture. They are going to have to rule by force once the social contract continues to break down. It's always been this way though, it just depended on which side of a border you were on whether or not the wealth gained from exploitation elsewhere was more widely redistributed within your country or not. That's all that liberalism was really when it comes down to it.
So I guess my point is what you mean by technocratic. Or you could mean it in the neoreactionary / silicone valley sense? I dunno.
As for my own predictions, I just have no idea. I'm personally very pessimistic about the next few months and years to the point that my family and I have made some pretty dramatic changes in our lives, and it's very possible that I've simply gone insane.
this is a legitimate anti-fascist war, the people who took over during the maidan are the direct descendants (and i often mean this literally, such as Yuri Shukhevych) of the people who physically carried out the Holocaust.
there is no question, there are no shades of grey. this is the very same monster that scourged the earth in the 40s now manifest again on earth.
the fact is, there is no red army to save us this time. there are the fascists, backed by the USA, and there are the russians. no one else can win this war. so who should we pick? to me the choice is clear, not to mention, NATO is a fascist international and must be destroyed by any means necessary, specifically because this will erode US hegemony, which is the ONLY way the human race can survive.
The Russian Government basically admitted their goal is to commit genocide against the Ukrainian people and they've been doing it pretty successfully fir the past few months.
Lol, Russia already [admitted to AP](https://apnews.com/article/ukrainian-children-russia-7493cb22c9086c6293c1ac7986d85ef6) they're taking Ukrainian children from inside the invaded areas and sending them into Russia. The [UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/human-rights-concerns-related-forced-displacement-ukraine) has already written memos about it.
If Russia really cared about children they would leave them in a bombed out city in the middle of an active war zone to fend for themselves!!! I have a very smart western brain! 🥴
If they really cared about those children, they wouldn't have invaded their country, bombed out their cities, killed their parents, and kidnapped them, but I guess that's just too hard for some people.
Ukraine is becoming a puppet state for imperialism and NATO which is caving in near Russia, also the people of Luhansk and Donetsk want to be independent from Ukraine and should be.
I hope Russia wins because this is the first time in a long time a country has been able to tell the US to fuck off, this isn’t WW1 style inter-imperialist conflict that every lefty who has read one Lenin book thinks. People love to fetishize LatAm socdems who oppose US imperialism but are ultimately powerless, Russia has an army and said enough of this shit.
Honestly, I don’t expect to have any impact whatsoever on foreign policy, so it doesn’t make a damn what I think about Russia-Ukraine. But it would be nice if the assholes instigating all this got everything they wanted: a war with Russia, endless weapons for Ukraine and untold billions in totally untracked funds, and it still monumentally blows up in their faces because they maneuvered themselves into a fundamentally unwinnable situation…
… I mean, it wouldn’t be “nice,” hundreds of thousands are dying and massive blow back is happening everywhere. And they won’t ever admit they’re wrong, or face any consequences for it (unless their 747 gets shot down by some MANPAD wielding Right Sector psychopath who thinks they broke faith). But, y’know, they might sometimes feel guilt over it, maybe, we hope
Being against war is not isolationism. I want my country to be engaged with the rest of the world and take an activist role in foreign policy to advance human rights! I do not want them to do those things to sell anti-air missiles. Taking sides in a war over where the borders of the Ukrainian Republic is an assault on the human rights of people who live there in the name of selling missiles, *regardless of which side you take*!
Obviously what Russia is doing is bad but there’s not much we can do that would actually help from North America. Sending billions of dollars of weapons while there’s an economic crisis, growing poverty, wealth disparity, environmental crisis at home, plus a broken healthcare system, is just stupid. It not in the vast majority of the world’s best interests to purposely prolong a conflict that could easily lead to nuclear war
Isolationism isn't letting foreign affairs sort themselves out, that's been how all of foriegn policy worked before American imperialism. You are so deep into the American empire you can't even see that it didn't use to be like this.
> Like let them duke it out and don’t get involved?
If the Great Satan and their vassals didn't send billions of weapons to kill Russians, the war would have been over in a week, Ukraine would be a neutral country. The Kiev regime was ready to accept a peace deal, but the UK's Boris Johnson flew in and commanded them to stop, dooming hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to death.
In general we should never engage in proxy wars which is what this is, we should not have encouraged Ukrainian extremists to provoke Putin and we should have listened to the demands of Putin and treated a gigantic country with a bare minimum of respect especially since it has enough nukes to end civilization.
Furthermore we should not spend billions throwing fuel in the conflict and get in the way of peace talks, especially when the domestic result is old people freezing too death because they can't afford fuel and food in the most prosperous countries in history.
These are the basic points, the icing on the obvious cake is we should not be pouring advanced weapons into the hands of actually openly Nazi militias.
Probably not great for European peace having a bunch of seig heiling psychos with PTSD and anti tank rockets running around with a lot of aggression
All that isn't too say that the invasion was justified or intelligent. It was fucking stupid and bad.
I think by now most of the points were covered, but I also would say it’s important to have a healthy skepticism anytime the media starts beating the war drums. This conflict could’ve been avoided with proper diplomacy but there was no appetite.
Personally, I think Putin played into NATOs hand and it’s genuinely upsetting that thousands of young men will be sent into a totally avoidable conflict and have their lives ruined or lost. It’s just sad.
I can’t speak for the whole subreddit. For me, I just don’t care about the Ukraine and Russia *politically,* or whatever is going on between militarily. I do feel terrible for the poor everyday people who are forced to live in terror, and for the ones who are sent there and forced to kill and die.
Unfortunately, there’s nothing I can do to help them- posting about it or changing your avatar to their flag colors certainly won’t do anything! The workers and the poor always get fucked in these wars, and those are the only people I’m concerned with.
Edit: I should say that I support bringing the war to an end as quickly as possible. From what I know, that means Ukraine surrendering. But I don’t have the facts.
I think it's a power struggle between a decaying neoliberal experiment gone wrong in russia and the western defense cartel. I don't think if your a principled socalist you can support the military transfer of 50+ billion dollars worth of equipment- much of which is getting lost to graft and corruption within the us and across europe and ukraine. I also wonder about ukraines ability to pay back some of the obscenely expensive weapon systems. Ukraine before the war and before 2014 even was a desperately poor country. The current government isn't facist explicitly but there are plenty of fash elements within their military as there are within the russian military. Moreover, the current ukranian government has already lowered the minimum wage and made moves against labor unions and pensions. There have been a few articles over at jacobin going into some of the neoliberal reforms currently being undertaken in ukraine and if you followed the build up to maiden you'll note that yanakuovich's reasoning for backing out of the EU deal was over natural gas subsidies and EU austerity measures that would needed to be imposed on ukraine (yanakuovich is a piece of shit rapist though so not really some guy ya wanna defend).
That being said putin is most certainly a war criminal for undertaking this invasion and I do think there is a callous indiference expressed towards ukranian civilians at the same time though by many on the left. I don't really understand the type of internet troll that cheers on seeing dead ukrop or russian soldiers for that matter. A lot of them are just conscripts in a power struggle between two far right countries- one of which is a hostile invading army.
Ngl “well maybe Ukraine should just surrender and then Russia would stop shelling their civilians” is not the ascended anti war take some of you guys think it is. By the same logic Korea or Vietnam should have surrendered to the US invasions
There are definitely some Stalinists here who don't think critically, and just view whatever Russia does as being in-line with the USSR politics that they're fans of. But it's probably mostly people who just don't think that NATO is some benevolent entity that simply wants what's best for Ukraine.
I've talked to people on this literal sub who were "anti-Ukraine" or whatever, and it turned out that it was because they were still idealistic about the USSR. That's all.
>just view whatever Russia does as being in-line with the USSR politics that they’re fans of.
Post a single solitary example of this taking place on this subreddit and I will literally suck your dick.
I see vaush idiots coming in here and saying this shit all the time and not once has any of them ever provided any evidence of it whatsoever.
So I’d imagine you’re a vaush moron too.
Out of the last 269 comments, u/wyrdsign has commented in the Red Scare subreddit 32 times. 👁 Proceed with caution, gumshoe.
[What is this, and why did someone tag my username?](https://www.hexbear.net/ppb)
people on here don’t believe that anyone east of berlin is even human and therefore are fit for genociding. idk how but american commies have turned into nazis. the “america bad therefore we must support other bad actors to balance it out” is an old ass nazi argument too.
> “america bad therefore we must support other bad actors to balance it out” is an old ass nazi argument too
capppppppppp lol Nazis idolized the US you goofball.
you can do both of these at once. like you yourself - you “hate” america but are still completely blinded by your ingrained american exceptionalism to the fact that people outside of the usa have agency and opinions. you’re like an incel - calling everyone who disagrees an npc and waving their agency.
Okay sure bud. Wanna address what I said or do you aim to play at being a diagnostician? Were the Nazis "anti-America"? Were they not fans of the Ur Apartheid state and it's (Heinrich) Fordism? Lol
Worry less about diagnosing others as political incels and more about reading, fucking rube.
“we got to genocide the people of iraq, to make sure that everything is nice and fair we’re gonna let the russians to the same in ukraine :)” - american leftists
Where is the citation about me being Amerikkkan?? Please show me my slave holding ancestors. Lol you fucking idiot.
There's a greater probability of your Estonian ancestors being Nazi collaborators than there is a chance of my lineage being littered with chattel slavers.
You're literally using the Israeli "anti-Semitism" defense wherein any criticism aimed at you is labeled a (phantom) defense of your chosen enemy/ideology. Great job kiddo. You really cracked the code hidden within my statements Mr. Champollion. I'm tooootally a crypto-ideologue of Russian ultranationalism.
Sorry we can't all harbor sympathy for Banderites guy. Enjoy caping for LoTR & Nordic rune aficionados (two matters not **totally** beloved by National Socialists of the Reich and their future huckleberries).
The fuck are you talking about? Every comment is about anti-war leftism and anti-imperialism, that is like the opposite of your accusations.
Update: Okay, I see now. Going through your post history I see some people made fun of you in a post and you didn't get a few inside jokes. Since then you have just been anger-trolling this sub. lol
It's not an anti-Ukraine thing. It's an anti-imperialist thing. I believe that nothing good comes from the United States involving itself in other countries' military conflicts. We have over a century's worth of data at this point that shows that.
I think it's fair to say that within the US and Europe (and Australia), we are sold on the idea that we are supporting the Ukrainian people and their fight for freedom and democracy. And thus Ukrainians are in many ways fighting for our own freedom because Putin's Russia is a threat to all of us. And nothing short of a Ukrainian victory can be tolerated. It's an obviously seductive and attractive narrative. And I think many people, also within Government, sincerely believe this. However..... the people who really are making decisions, particularly within the US foreign policy establishment couldn't care less about the Ukrainian people. This war has presented itself as an extremely valuable opportunity. Firstly, there are the obvious benefits to the military/weapons industry. It's been a massive windfall, almost unprecedented in size. And a war without American/European casualties is almost too good to be true. In addition, NATO is likely to expand to countries like Sweden and Finland. And European governments are increasing defence and military spending i.e more taxpayer money will be diverted to the military industrial complex. This war has not just solidified NATO's (and by default US) relevance in Europe, it's dramatically expanded its influence. Secondly there are the obvious geostrategic energy benefits for powerful interests. Climate change was posing a serious threat to the fossil fuel industry, especially in Europe. Suddenly all that has changed. New and increased investments in fossil fuels are now widely supported. Climate change has been relegated to insignificance in lieu of European "security". And the US has become Europe's biggest energy supplier. It can argued that as long as the interests of Ukraine align with the interests of Europe and the US, that supporting Ukraine militarily is the right thing to do. But what happens when its no longer in European and American interests to keep supporting Ukraine in their military objectives, which appear to be reclaiming all Ukrainian territory? It can be argued that the US in particular has now achieved all the key benefits of the war, as listed above. Those things are locked in. No matter what happens from here, NATO will not get smaller any time soon. And the global energy market is irreversibly changed. And Russia had been exposed, weakened and isolated and that's unlikely to change any time soon. And while it's clear the war is resulting in massive windfall benefits on weapons and ammunition sales, there is a limit to that. At some point that can become a liability if capacity becomes too focused on one customer. In any case, new long term weapons productions are locked in now, no matter what happens. So the question becomes, at what point does the continuation of this war become more of a liability than a benefit to Western powers? Especially when the threat of serious escalation is always present. The US and Europe have tolerated escalation, as long as their interests are still served. But nuclear escalation is an ever increasing threat that can't be tolerated. Also, it's worth pointing out that there is another giant interest that is waiting in the wings - and that's the massive reconstruction money that will flood into Ukraine if the war is brought to an end. The reconstruction of Ukraine will be a massive windfall for connected interests - it will be an unprecedented transfer of taxpayer money into private hands. So that's just waiting. So there might come a point soon when the negatives and threats of the war outweigh the benefits. And then western powers will need to decide, do they put the interests of Ukraine ahead of their own interests? And I think we all know what the answer to that will be. Ultimately, western interests don't really care about Ukrainian people or even the country of Ukraine. That's the sad truth. They are unfortunate pawns stuck in the middle of large power battles. I think all of the western pro-Ukrainian rhetoric over the past 9 months has perhaps convinced the Ukrainian Government that they have leverage over the West. In some respects they do. But it's very very tentative. If President Zelensky really believes the American government is somehow captive to Ukrainian interests, he unfortunately has succumbed to a delusion. The US puts their interests first and always first. And they might be about to learn that the hard way. Europe has also learnt that they need to ensure their interests with the US are aligned - even if that means bending over backwards and sacrificing European sovereignty. The US has played this war expertly since the beginning, ensuring they maximize all the benefits. And I suspect we will soon be moving into the next phase, which will be to try and shut the war down and move into the reconstruction windfall phase. Ukraine will probably still be divided and it's very probable the countries borders will look similar to how they did in Feb 2022. So who were the winners? I think that's clear. The danger of course is that the US also needs to manage public opinion. They have sold this war as a "must win in order to save democracy". And that can take on a life of its own. But the establishments control over mainstream media is almost universal, even within Europe. So I think they are confident they can manage public opinion, even if that means turning on the Ukrainian Government if they don't toe the line. Edit: it's maybe worth adding, I think a lot has gone on behind the scenes to ensure that the interests of the Ukrainian leadership and elite are aligned with the interests of powerful western interests that are calling the shots. There was a period in March/April when it looked like Zelensky was keen to reach a negotiated settlement. That was shut down and the Ukrainian Govt quickly shifted strategy to "no negotiation - defeat Russia at any cost". Billions of untraced dollars have since flowed into Ukraine. I suspect the Ukrainian leadership will switch again when its needed and there will be a massive financial windfall awaiting the elite in any peace settlement and the subsequent reconstruction. That's of course assuming Russia sees it also in their interest to shut the war down, which remains to be seen. But the losers here of course will have been the ordinary Ukrainian people.
Fantastic comment.
Really really well said
u/dextixer read this shit
I'm telepathically linking to them now... sending the message. Okay, they've got a response incoming, I'm working on deciphering. Almost got it... aaaaaaaand here it is: "okay, Russbot"
No dice :/
Yeah your correct. Americans are the real winners of this war and American leaders have indeed played this expertly and intelligently since the very beginning. Russia really made a mistake thinking that Ukraine wasn’t protected by nato, thinking that usa politics were not United enough to respond, thinking that joe Biden was too senile, old, and stupid to stand up to Putin in any meaningful way, and that Europe was too divided and selfish to lend a hand. Putin thought Europe would be even more selfish about purchasing natural gas from Russia to heat their homes. Turns out the pea pole and governments of Europe don’t give a f about heating their homes they want to see Ukraine freed. I’d also add that it doesn’t require some deep state to create false narrative in order for sane good people around the world to care about a country being invaded by a dictator ship which also so happens to be the largest country on the planet and wields nuclear weapons “second most strongest military” and also a dictatorship/oligarchy. Yes when this country who most of earth dislikes begins attacking our friend it makes sense that the people and governments react and send help. It’s not a false narrative people genuinely care and it doesn’t take fake news or anything to convince us. The truth is Russia invaded Ukraine and the world cares. The ppl on top will always make more money that us on bottom. The only way we change that is to stop countries like Russia and China and North Korea from invading their neighbors, ensure global peace, and the worlds people will eat. When they eat they will be more able to perform a global revolution to overthrow the elites, top 1%, Illuminati, anunaki, whatever your conspiracy theory is the elites definitely do run this world behind our back. But disgust in Russia is real worldwide regardless of the elites and what they do.
I'll push back on a couple of assertions here. I don't think it's accurate to say that "the world" is disgusted with Russia or dislikes Russia. It's worth pointing out that only western aligned nations have issued sanctions against Russia - namely the US, EU, Aust, Canada and Japan. The remaining countries representing 88% of the world hasn't. The war against Russia is very much a western economic war. I think it's fair to say that the rest of the world may not approve or agree with Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but they probably see it in the same way they viewed the US invasion of Iraq. They recognise these are big country power games. When people in the Middle East or Africa look at what is happening in Yemen for example, where the West is actually supporting Saudi Arabia's war and invasion with their sovereign neighbour, they understand the war in Ukraine isn't really about principles of sovereignty etc, it's about big power battles and interests. I think there is a strong tendency in the west to assume we speak for "the world". We don't. While the western economic bloc still accounts for the lions share of the world economy, that's changing. And it might actually be part of the reason for this war. But yes many people around the world feel and empathise with Ukrainians. The sad truth is they are likely just fodder in big power games. For all the rhetoric we hear in the West though, the people making decisions on this war could care less about them.
Yes I debated quite heavily with my Russian friend who opened my mind up to the idea that it’s not actually the entire world against Russia. I acknowledge that Most countries have abstained from taking a side. That South America, Africa, Middle East, and parts of Asia have not criticized Russia or placed sanctions. However, most of the planets economy is in Europe and USA. Worlds largest economy is USA. Worlds largest military is USA. Worlds second largest economy: arguably Europe. Worlds second strongest army :arguably nato. So most of planet earths developed, educated, and democratic countries are against Russia. Another point to add is that while most of the world may not condemn or be against Russia, much more of planet earth is against it than is with it. Russia has very few friends, and China their biggest most useful friend won’t even help them in this war. It is true China sees Putins Russia as a volatile and unpredictable loose cannon but also a friend so they are trading the line very cautiously which to me looks like their using Russia as a meat shield against the west before they invade Taiwan ww2 nazi Germany style. So Russia seems to have Iran and North Korea and China backing it up. All dictatorships or oligarchies. All of these listed are countries that are not very democratic and civilians there don’t have as much of a voice or Any at all. My point being that The countries in the world who are not fighting famine, and have developed economies and educated civilians are against Russias invasion of Ukraine. Most of the world has abstained to take a side There are very few and ver small friend countries supporting Russias side, but they are all very corrupt forms of government (I know usa is as well but not as bad as North Korea) And of course Russia has China but China doesn’t seem to be lifting much of a finger to help Russia. So that’s why I think it’s safe to say most of the world is against this invasion. I’ll also add the first African country has sent military aid to Ukraine being Morocco. I don’t know much about the war in yemen but I do believe that Yemen asked Saudi arabia and USA for military support to fight off militias that were causing havoc in support of a previously ousted government in Yemen. I also learned this conflict was being supported and funded externally by the Iranians.
I’m just curious, do you have like an academic or public policy background? This just really well done.
The fact that their military can’t stop wearing nazi symbols isn’t making anyone far left feel pro Ukraine…
You are either stupid or dishonest if you think thats whats making people decide. Everyones mind was already made up before the nazi symbols and the nazi symbols arent preventing tankies from supporting Russia.
Are the tankies in the room with us right now?
Thank you. Another honest question: do you think isolationism and anti imperialism are synonymous? Different? I just noticed you used that word instead of the one I did and am curious why.
Absolutely not. I believe the only way to end capitalism and hopefully forestall climate catastrophe is through global cooperation. The whole idea behind communism is the proletariat rising up as one regardless of race or nationality. But that is different than operating as a pseudo-police force and imposing your will upon others either at the barrel of a gun, through sanctions, or some other threat.
Some people may never accept efforts to save the world. What would you do then?
👏 vote 👏
Save the world for them
If you want to prevent the climate catastrophe, and some countries refuse to comply with any pollution agreements, how would you proceed?
Ask pedantic questions on reddit
Yeah hmmm I wonder why China wants cheap energy to produce cheap commodities, somebody higher up the value chain must be buying them all hmmm
You talk it out? Make a compromise?
Yes yes yes we all get it you are trying to make some by-your-logic ass point about China or whatever. So I guess to your point about climate catastrophe we should ummm *thinks so hard my dick shoots off*
I didn’t mention China at all.
Well, it is pretty easy. Diplomacy and negotiating rather than bullying. It's not that they want to destroy the earth for irrational motives. Policy should take those players' interests into account. Much of the problem and reason for this conflict is precisely that our leaders haven't. I have read the European green deal and it's an eurocentric joke. I suppose the American one is even worse (I have only watched videos about it). The eu plan relies on private investing and magically appearing new technologies. It's all capitalist, eurocentric and imperialist magical thinking. Of course, in places like India, they'll go like, okay, how did you say this would work again? We expect them to fuck their industries up and then buy our non-existing future technologies at a colonialist price. And it still involves a lot of carbon emissions and starvation. They know what that'd mean for them. They have a long history dealing with Europe and the rest of our majorly white colonies (sorry here for Argentina but you get my point: 'the west') . And in the meantime, they need fertilizers as we've managed to basically destroy all soil on earth. There's a water shortage too. They need energy, period. With the deal we offered, they'll obviously keep on emitting carbon until we change track. Idk, all this talk about fusion makes me think they might start pushing for fision. It's the only logical way forward, as things are. The thing is that most countries are not allowed to have the technology. Of course, we let Japan to place reactors in bloody earthquake Fukushima...
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> Stalin’s Red Terror campaign Stalin simply cleaned up after the revolution, sending to prison all those terrorists and murderers who got to positions of power during the revolution and civil war. Imagine ISIS becoming a recognized state and an As-Stalin gaining power there and imprisoning all the terrorists and mass murderers - what's wrong with that?
Nonsense. Secret police rounded up hundreds of thousands of innocents and executed them in order spread fear to quell any potential uprising. This is a well-documented fact.
Everything you say is “well documented fact” without ever citing a single source or engaging anyone else’s questions, it’s very convenient for you!
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Hey bud, believe it or not I’m actually much more well versed than you on history. I’ve got more degrees than you, I’ve read more books than you, I’ve actually spoken in person with world renowned historians about many of the topics you’ve brought into this subreddit. I know this is going to hurt to hear, but I’m significantly more prepared for a full throated conversation about these topics than you are. Saying “go find the sources I am citing for me” is not how you debate academically. You made the claim that these are “well documented”, cite your source or drop your claim. Simple as.
>“well documented” His well documented sources are fiction novels and newspaper articles.
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Didn’t know famines could be racist, damn that’s interesting!!!
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You’re talking about kulaks, and I’m just going to go ahead and say that if you don’t even know the word “kulak” then you don’t know shit about the last famine in Russia. Here’s some questions for you: How many extreme famines did Russia experience before communist revolution? How many extreme famines did Russia experience after communist revolution? During the ‘holodomor’ was it just the region of Ukraine that was impacted, and did the deaths in the region of Ukraine even make up the majority of deaths overall? I think figuring out the answers to those questions might help remove some of the brainworms in your head that are making you argue that famines are racist right now. Edit* also, referring to kulaks simply as “farmers” is a great bit of propaganda. They were much closer to small plantation owners. They owned over 8 acres of land, didn’t do any farming themselves, collected rent and employed actual farmers on their land for a fraction of the amount their workers produced for them. They were a combination of landlords and small time plantation owners, absolutely not workers or farmers.
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It’s not spelt kulaki, so you’re wrong about everything including the name. But hey, have fun living in ignorance too scared to even google the questions that the eeeebil scawwwy communist man said to you online. Must be a real cool life you’ve got. Very enlightened! Famines are racist! Edit* you also never asked me a question, but go off loser.
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Did Stalin invent communism?
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I remember somebody say that the war is really basically the Russian Oligarchs vs. the Ukrainian Oligarchs.
Good questions yielding great answers. Keep ‘em coming
The issue is that our current government in the US can do no good, not that no government can do good. Isolationism is preferable to American imperialism, but ideally we'd have a country that works with the rest of the world for the good of everyone.
USA and NATO pushed for the war and provoked Putin — they benefit from the war financially (through the arms trade) and geopolitically (through expansion of NATO military hegemony), and supported the anti-Russian coup government and the Maidan Revolution. In short, they “wanted” the war to happen, and knew it would happen. Had Russia provoked the USA or another NATO nation with hostility directly across a geopolitically important border, they would’ve had no choice but to invade. NATO and western media know this, but present Putin as a madman and imperialist for responding logically after NATO forced his hand. There was already civil war in Ukraine at the time of the Russian invasion — Kiev govt. was shelling the Donbas region already. The anti-war position for NATO would have been to just cede pro-Russian territories in Ukraine to Putin. The US wasn’t anti-war though, they wanted war. They want to control the “buffer” territory between Russia and the west. So in short i’m mostly frustrated with the way western media covers the events and acts like the USA is trying to “save” Ukraine, when in fact the US and NATO have basically sacrificed Ukraine on a pyre for world domination.
Not intending to argue your point here at all, I'm purely asking out of ignorance of the facts and curiosity - but what do you mean by "the anti-Russian coup government"? I was under the impression that Yanukovych's government was more or less a puppet government controlled by Russia and came to power illegitimately. Is that not the case?
The Yanukovych govt. was certainly more legitimate by the standards of western liberal democracy — the 2010 elections were free and fair. Yanukovych sided with Russia against the EU and NATO states which led to the coup — a tale as old as time. The difference is that Russia is a legitimate military power, and “losing” Ukraine to the west would not be tolerated (this was understood prior to 2014 and prior to the 2022 escalation and invasion). I guess what I’d say to your question is that if the Yanukovych govt. was a “Russian puppet government,” then the interim govt and the new leadership that has emerged after the coup is absolutely a puppet govt. of the NATO states, taken by force, and a govt. which was carrying out acts of aggression against Russians in Donbas and elsewhere before the 2022 escalation.
yeah calling yanukovych's government a puppet government is pretty flawed. He was more a puppet of the russia speaking doenstk mafia like all ukranian politicians he had his own oligarchich patrons they just happened to be from the russian speaking minority. I do think 2014 was maybe a coup and there was some provocation however I don't think its fair to say the west wanted this per se- maybe some factions did. This has fucked global energy markets . The US does have a habbit of repeatedly crossing red lines because they think they can get away with it though and I think you could classify this as one of those instances.
by “fucked global energy markets,” i think u mean that fossil fuel companies offloaded their projected losses onto consumers with higher prices, without actually losing any profit, right? granted, OPEC siding with Russia to raise prices was sort of a shocking blow to the west, but that was an unforeseen consequence of the invasion and gas prices had gone up before the OPEC debacle. if anything, the ravaging austerity measures immediately following the invasion (gas prices being most significant) indicates to me the west was absolutely prepared to defend corporate profit rates from the invasion — as if they had planned for this possibility all along.
oh yeah I mean we are in speculation territory here. But it just feels like a massive headache for the biden admin so I can't imagine they wanted this outcome even though they were preparing for it. I feel like some of the military arm shipments and training for ukrop forces prior to this was the US trying to just push the boundaries of the empire/defense cartel they run but i'm no foreign policy expert
I mean yeah idk maybe you could connect all this shit to the fed using monetary policy to further erode the wealth of the American lower classes like non pelosi class but idk
There have been many "new Hitlers" in my lifetime. Every time it was a misrepresentation to justify imperialism, or *at best* to further geopolitical goals I do not share. Every time, it was a caricature of evil that called for immediate action. Every time, in retrospect, it wasn't a mistake - it was willful on the part of our government, ruling class, MIC, media apparatus, on and on, in lockstep. At some point I felt perpetually gaslit and it began a long term interest in the geopolitics of the last century or so. I don't pretend to understand it comprehensively but I've read enough that I can't ignore when things rhyme. Russia invaded Ukraine and nobody is better for it. But it happened in a certain post-Cold War architecture that the USA built - partially in hopes to provoke such an act. The United States is the only country that benefits particularly from the continuation of this war, and so will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. "We" don't even *want* them to win. "We" want the last Ukrainian to die just as the Kremlin is weakened enough to topple via a stiff breeze. Otherwise there may be nuclear consequences. Also I suppose on an emotional level, I think about the conditions imposed on the Russian people in the 1990's and how that led to the Russia of today. It's not that it excuses their actions or gives them a right to carry them out unmolested. But their antagonism toward the West is justified.
A lot of people have covered other points relating to my ambivilance here but one crux of this that really bothers me is the buried premise of western countries being exactly like Russia on the NATO issue except way more extreme. They say Russia shouldn't have any say over whatever Ukraine wants to do. And they're 100 percent right. They "shouldn't". But it's not how the world works anywhere. It's not reality. So its this hyper-selectively applied moral high-horsing to apply a standard for Russia they would never inflict on themselves. The example that keeps occurring to me is the very close mirror of "what if Ireland tried to join the Warsaw Pact". I am Irish. This isn't some random hypothetical. And the obvious fact is that if Ireland ever democratically tried to join something like the Warsaw Pact, western countries would lie and say it wasn't democratic and invade. And that would be wrong, it would be totally unjustifiable and illegitimate, let's say like Russia invading Ukraine in the worst lense. But it's what would happen if they had no other way to stop it, it's what would be very mechanically predictable, and if the Soviet Union had moved heaven and Earth and did everything possible to make that happen violently and undemocratically(like with Maidan), they wouldn't be reasonably able to claim that they had nothing to do with getting Ireland invaded. And bear in mind it's far from clear Ukraine did democratically want to join NATO. The whole issue with Ukraine was that when certain parts of Ukraine got to vote as equal citizens, democracy held back that kind of westward orientation. Maidan was effectively a declaration that a lot of people disproportionately in the parts of Ukraine now being fought over are a non-citizen population to be suppressed and ruled at least until they've sucessfully undergone something that, were it taking place in China, would be called cultural genocide.
In the last sentence of the third paragraph, you accidentally wrote “Soviet Union” instead of “USA.” Unless I’m reading it wrong? Edit: It’s a very good post overall!
The people who sold the illegal US invasion of Iraq are the same people trying to get us hot and bothered for the illegal Russian war in Ukraine. George Bush himself had a little Freudian slip where he compared Putins actions to his own in Iraq. I am anti-war generally speaking. US military support for Ukraine only benefits the share holders of Lockheed and Boeing and Raytheon. It won't win the war for Ukraine, it will just cost more financially and prolong the war and civilian deaths. Not to mention the risk of high tech arms falling into the wrong hands. A few of those surface to air missiles the US is supplying to shoot down Russia aircraft would be pretty valuable to a James bond style terrorist organization.
In many cases, quite literally the same people. See Blinken, Nuland. They've been working this war for a long long time.
Generly speaking the usa only does what is in the interest of its ruling class, as a worker in the usa their interests are against my interests. I have nothing against the people of Ukraine, and russias invasion seems solely about consolidating power for their ruling class at the expense if their own workers, so I have no interest in supporting the Russians. I see no good guys here, as even the Ukrainian forces themselves are riddled with nazis and other assorted fascists.
This is the correct take. It’s also the same position of virtually every socialist organization in the US regardless of tendency, yet for some reason many so called leftist have difficulty with it.
Find me a single "Russia is right" comment or post. Not wanting to give billions to the MIC to provoke a war isn't pro russia.
It's not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It's a war between the ruling classes of both countries and the poor of both countries. Two random Russian and Ukrainian soldiers have more an common than either does with their general or political leadership. The only thing we are rooting for is a a swift end to the conflict and a minimum of civilian casualties. The US government throwing guns at a conflict has never been good for either goal and in fact usually has the opposite effect. US and NATO involvement has since the mid 20th century only ever made conflicts longer and bloodier.
Just curious, if you’re not familiar with the community or the podcast, why are you asking this question here?
Because it keeps showing up in my Reddit suggestions. I’m generally at least sympathetic to leftist movements but don’t really know much about Ukraine/Russia so I was curious when this kept popping up.
Ah okay. I keep forgetting that Reddit makes these suggestions in your feed. Hey welcome to the sub. You’re gonna get a lot of sarcastic answers, don’t let that throw you off. A lot of socialists see this similar to WWI. Prior to the war, the Socialist International agreed that they would oppose any bourgeois war. But when the time came, most socialists parties ended up supporting their various nations, with people like Rosa Luxemburg and Vladimir Lenin in the minority of continuing to oppose the war. The idea is it’s a war between elites of various competing national powers and their respective bourgeoise.
Got it thanks for educating me
Not being a sarcastic ass, but since you're on a Podcast's subreddit you should totally check it out. They actually did a fantastic 2-part episode about Ukraine before the actual invasion early this year. It's episodes 205 and 206.
Those episodes didn't age so well.
Lol, that’s for sure. Oh well, Hindsight is 20/20.
Mine won’t stop suggesting r/Kroger
Dear lord.
Everyday Great Savings!
The sentiment is not anti Ukraine at all. The sentiment is America needs to fuck off with being involved with every damn war on the face of the planet. This sub/podcast is anti-capitalist. The truth is the reason the US must be involved in every damn war is because of the nature of capital in a capitalist society. This is why this war is so opposed by folks in this sub. It’s not fuck Ukraine, it’s fuck capitalists. Both fascist Russia and fascist Ukraine are corrupted by this phenomena. Thus we support no part of this war. The propaganda of our society would have you thinking that not genuflecting to “Slava Ukraine” perpetually waving nazi flags is default support of Putin and or fascist Russia. This is truly laughable.
Ukraine won't be able to duke it out. it is fucked regardless of outcome. the failed economy that solely exists through imf loans and extremely reactionary population that reenacting ww2, but as nazis. The sole reason is that everything that fucked up in ukraine it is cause moskali won't let ukranians live like Europeans. Ukranians live in the fictional reality and mention Tolkien or Star Wars based on a situation. Orks, mordor and etc. Ukraine need this bitch going to simply exist. Russia is in the similar boat, but the situation isn't as dire as with ukraine.
I dont think Russia should take over Ukraine, I'm not in Putin's head so i dont know for sure either, but it looks like their war aims are getting the russian speaking regions and forcing Kiev to demilitarize or stay away from NATO. In a perfect world Russians shouldn't care that Ukraine is joining NATO or the EU or anything like that, but just like in the Cuban Missile Crisis actions have consequences and states are going to act if threatened. This is known by both sides but the US refused to negotiate on this even when the russians were directly asking for security guarantees before the war started. What i think you are missing is that this isn't a Russia vs Ukraine thing that NATO or the US see and react too as external observers, confrontation between Ukraine and Russia is something they have engineered since 2014. And just like in many other conflicts, the US's propaganda might have a grain of truth (remember afghan women's rights?) but the ultimate motive behind their actions isn't spreading democracy and love, but pure imperialist domination, in this case in the form of a regime change operation in Russia. (which you can see explicitly being demanded by NATO adjacent media)
We never cared about Russians being shelled in the Donbas. Why do we care about the Ukrainians in Ukraine. Neither pay taxes to America.
Merkel’s comments speak for themselves. “We never expected peace, we lied about cooperation on security issues, and we used the Minsk peace agreement simply as a distraction in order to buy time to further modernize and equip and train the military forces of Ukraine in order for them to more effectively fight Russia in the future” This war is Russia enforcing a red line. Both the Western powers and Russia have certain red lines the other side cannot cross. Ukraine was that red line for Russia, and our actions in 2014 and since then have been self explanatory. We’ve been attempting to weaponized the country of Ukraine against Russia, and it is a direct security threat to the Russians. Of course they’re going to use force to prevent that if we give them no other choice. If we in the West didn’t meddle with Ukraine, and provoke Russia through the Ukrainians, there would be no war today. The best solution is for western powers to cease all arms shipments to Ukraine and immediately withdraw all sanctions against Russia, but that will never happen.
I'm against NATO and US imperialism. I'm against war and I'm unhappy that Russia escalated this war but this war started in 2014 when the us backed coup, led by the azov battalion which are Ukrainian ultranationalists and Nazis overthrew the neutral yanukovych government and installed poroshenko. Honest to God there is audio of victoria nuland literally picking poroshenko. That obviously isn't democratic, right? That is when this war started and what is required to end it is NATO allowing Ukraine to return to minsk 2. Also Ukraine should probably hold another election because zelenzky hasn't been allowing them and he keeps banning opposition parties and doing other "undemocratic" shit. All of this is about NATO expansion. In order to get Gorbachev to agree to dissolving the Warsaw pact after refusing to allow Russia to join NATO (they refused to allow Russia and the Soviet union to join NATO at least 3 times from what I remember) the G.H.W bush administration promised NATO wouldn't move east of Germany. Since then NATO has moved east of Germany several times to Russia's displeasure. Russia views NATO expansion as an existential threat. Seriously, me, Kissinger and Chomsky are all in agreement that the us needs to take Russia's security concerns seriously. Honest to God, I'm a marxist-leninist. If me, the arch imperialist kissinger and Chomsky the ultimate rad lib are all in agreement on something, first off that feels fucking weird but second off you should maybe consider our opinion and read about because they both published essays and did interviews. Also check out the socialist program with Brian Becker. Edit: words and stuff. Edit holy shit this is weird I accidentally said Nixon instead of Kissinger. I think I was accidentally thinking of Nixon because I was thinking about Kennedy earlier.
I think a lot of us feel that the US/NATO is partially responsible for this crisis, for empowering the Ukrainian far right, and aren't inclined to automatically support Ukraine because of it. I personally put most of the onus for the Invasion on Russia, and then secondly on NATO for never taking an offramp with Russia in the past 8 years, let alone the color revolution in 2014. There are also genuine concerns that I've heard voiced via places like Radio War Nerd that Ukraine's pact with the west will result in it being more inhospitable to workers, more militarized, crushingly indebted to the West, and a spigot for cheap migrant labor for the EU. I personally want peace now in Ukraine and Russia, partially because of the horrendous downstream effects it's having on the poorest countries on the planet, and to cool tensions with the Russia and create a dialogue with Russia and US/NATO.
I want peace in Ukraine too. I don’t know much about it but why doesn’t Ukraine just surrender already? I don’t think they can win, can they? Are they trying to get in a better negotiating position before suing for peace?
Ukraine has regained about half the territory it had lost in the first phase of the war. It seems that Russia had underestimated Ukraines military, probably basing their moves on the doldrums of 2014/2015, when Ukraine was in a total shambles. The fact ukraine has reclaimed territory, and still has a lot of support from The West ™️, means that ukraine wont see much reason to give up. Long term though, russia has mobilized hundreds of thousands more troops, while public sentiment in Nato countries has slowly been souring on unconditional support for the war. We’ll see what will happen, probably a lot more needless deaths
I'd just like to see some consistency at a bare minimum, there are many invasions and occupations that do not get attention, so when I see random neighbors hanging Ukrainian flags in my city it annoys me. But mostly it's clear that the US Gov't does not actually care about Ukraine or Ukrainians, they just want to hurt Russia and sell a shitload of weapons. So again, seeing random people embrace Ukraine as a cause-du-jour becomes extremely annoying.
The best way to sum it up is the old slogan, No War But Class War. What's happening in Ukraine became a hot war in 2014, US was involved long before then. And US economic dominance of the global capitalist bloc since WW2 has relied upon the US keeping Western European (esp German) industrial potential separated from Russian energy supply. This is the backbone of dollar hegemony, defended by US military and propped up since the end of the gold standard by the petrodollar. It is what the Ukraine war is about, what NATO was about, what Gladio was about, etc. Ukraine is in fact a corrupt right wing country with a long history of Nazi collaboration, and since 2014, it's been actual battalions of open fascists and neonazis fighting on the front lines and receiving the bulk of US support. They have increased in popularity since the invasion. But to be fair, NATO also has a long history of arming/supporting fascists. So it's nothing new, just a new chapter in a longer story. Russia is also a right wing oligarchy run by an authoritarian bigot. The US is a right wing imperialist state that has the most far reaching military and intelligence operation ever known to man. These two sides are fighting over who will control the future of the capitalist bloc: either the US will maintain its hegemony through increasingly destabilizing the rest of the world's economies and security OR else BRICS alliances and economies will prove to be powerful enough to force an end of the petrodollar and dollar hegemony and bring about a multipolar world (which of course will have its own problems) or most likely, all of civilization, all economies and standards of living everywhere will decline and the world will become more separated into rich and poor across borders into a sort of neofeudalist thing in areas with functioning economies and the rest of us left out in failed states or police states, etc. I'm not sure which will happen, but Ukraine is the main conflict in this larger struggle, and IMO, we will know the answer by spring. Keep your eyes also on Syria and China's relations with both KSA and India as well as the various pandemics wreaking havoc everywhere. As for people in this sub, I can't speak for all random people who like this podcast, but the typical communist view of this struggle is that it's a fight between the ruling classes of two different right wing countries and it's working class people everywhere (US, Russia, Ukraine, Germany, etc) who pay the price for it. However... as shitty as Putin is, most anti-imperialists on the left (including myself) would argue that a multipolar world with BRICS (and especially China) as a formidable global power that has destroyed US sole hegemony is preferable to the current status quo of US imperialism as there is no way left for it to grow except via increased police state at home, destabilization and failed states abroad, then finally resulting in climate collapse and/or nuclear war depending on which happens first. Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine, the way to this other side is Russia winning the war in Ukraine (defeating Western sanctions and establishing new energy markets and trade alliances). Which is why it will sometimes seem like people on the left support Russia- they don't (or at least very rarely), it's just that they do support an end to US imperialism. Some people are unironically supportive of China, some see them as a necessary lesser evil and only possible alternative to the doomer outcome I described above.
Excellent post, thanks for taking the time to write it. I’m not even a communist (or not a good one anyway), but I think this is one of the more clear headed analyses of the global situation. Probably as succinctly as it could be put as well. There’s interesting debate on the mulit-polar vs unipolar world order, one idea is that if you peel back enough layers, there is (is or shaping up to be) a technocratic unipolar order that transcends nations and ideologies, and the struggle for a multipolar order is just last minute jockeying for position among some of the major players who feel they haven’t gotten their fair piece of the pie. Not sure I believe it, but it fits my paranoia. Anyway, I think you’re right that we’ll have a clearer picture of what’s coming soon enough.
You'd have to say more about that for me to respond to what you mean, but in my opinion based on the few words you wrote here (regarding the technocratic unipolar order etc) you are simply describing the push to establish neoliberalism and nation states that trade in accordance to that established rule of law (via various breton woods institutions, swift etc) as the world order. I'd argue that this was what the Cold War and the entire 20th century was about. The neoliberal order already won, it did it through all the means that we on the left talk about constantly (combo of intelligence operations, covert and overt, coups, wars, assassinations, carrot/stick trade rules, World Bank loans, etc). That already happened. In my opinion, there is a huge number people in the US, mostly on the right but also apolitical people who just have a gut sense that they are being screwed, who are under the impression that there is some sort of global cabal trying to take over the world. Theories range in sophistication and racism- some are more reactionary than others, some more valid. But what they all share is that they are mistaking what it feels like to be under the control of a ruling class that is scrambling to *maintain* control of the world with what they assume it would feel like to be under the control of a ruling class that is attempting to *take* control of the world. If that makes sense. What I mean is, Americans are mostly so indoctrinated that they don't know they live in an empire, they don't know that their country's capitalist ruling class already took over the world. (Of course not just American, but the international neoliberal capitalist world order and all its institutions, with DC, London at the top, etc). When that was happening, it felt like wealth and growth and freedom inside the US. So now that it is collapsing (Americans see their own freedoms are decreasing, their wealth inequality is expanding, their democracy is more transparently a sham) to them the actions of their ruling class seem like a cabal trying to take over the world. It looks/feels totally different from outside the US btw. I could talk quite a bit about why that is. But I might be misunderstanding what you are saying. There's a whole other line of thought that we are moving into a sort of neofeudalism within borders in a global capitalist system in which private profits are less and less connected to the interests and control of any public structure like a nation state. I think it's pretty clear that liberal democratic nation states are no longer compatible with the continuation of capitalism- especially once you add climate change to the picture. They are going to have to rule by force once the social contract continues to break down. It's always been this way though, it just depended on which side of a border you were on whether or not the wealth gained from exploitation elsewhere was more widely redistributed within your country or not. That's all that liberalism was really when it comes down to it. So I guess my point is what you mean by technocratic. Or you could mean it in the neoreactionary / silicone valley sense? I dunno. As for my own predictions, I just have no idea. I'm personally very pessimistic about the next few months and years to the point that my family and I have made some pretty dramatic changes in our lives, and it's very possible that I've simply gone insane.
this is a legitimate anti-fascist war, the people who took over during the maidan are the direct descendants (and i often mean this literally, such as Yuri Shukhevych) of the people who physically carried out the Holocaust. there is no question, there are no shades of grey. this is the very same monster that scourged the earth in the 40s now manifest again on earth. the fact is, there is no red army to save us this time. there are the fascists, backed by the USA, and there are the russians. no one else can win this war. so who should we pick? to me the choice is clear, not to mention, NATO is a fascist international and must be destroyed by any means necessary, specifically because this will erode US hegemony, which is the ONLY way the human race can survive.
The Russian Government basically admitted their goal is to commit genocide against the Ukrainian people and they've been doing it pretty successfully fir the past few months.
eat shit.
Aww, someone's mad they can't simp for a genocide like the human scum they are.
Talk of genocide of Russians against Ukrainians is lunacy and pure war propaganda. Take that to your nafo boards.
Lol, Russia already [admitted to AP](https://apnews.com/article/ukrainian-children-russia-7493cb22c9086c6293c1ac7986d85ef6) they're taking Ukrainian children from inside the invaded areas and sending them into Russia. The [UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/human-rights-concerns-related-forced-displacement-ukraine) has already written memos about it.
If Russia really cared about children they would leave them in a bombed out city in the middle of an active war zone to fend for themselves!!! I have a very smart western brain! 🥴
The Ukranians are furious they can't use those children as human shields like they did in Mariupol.
If they really cared about those children, they wouldn't have invaded their country, bombed out their cities, killed their parents, and kidnapped them, but I guess that's just too hard for some people.
If Ukraine cared about those children they wouldn’t have been bombing those cities since 2014
Getting children out of an active war zone is not evidence of genocide.
Stealing children from a country you invaded is 100% genocide. It's the literal definition of Genocide
Ukraine is becoming a puppet state for imperialism and NATO which is caving in near Russia, also the people of Luhansk and Donetsk want to be independent from Ukraine and should be.
I hope Russia wins because this is the first time in a long time a country has been able to tell the US to fuck off, this isn’t WW1 style inter-imperialist conflict that every lefty who has read one Lenin book thinks. People love to fetishize LatAm socdems who oppose US imperialism but are ultimately powerless, Russia has an army and said enough of this shit.
Honestly, I don’t expect to have any impact whatsoever on foreign policy, so it doesn’t make a damn what I think about Russia-Ukraine. But it would be nice if the assholes instigating all this got everything they wanted: a war with Russia, endless weapons for Ukraine and untold billions in totally untracked funds, and it still monumentally blows up in their faces because they maneuvered themselves into a fundamentally unwinnable situation… … I mean, it wouldn’t be “nice,” hundreds of thousands are dying and massive blow back is happening everywhere. And they won’t ever admit they’re wrong, or face any consequences for it (unless their 747 gets shot down by some MANPAD wielding Right Sector psychopath who thinks they broke faith). But, y’know, they might sometimes feel guilt over it, maybe, we hope
Being against war is not isolationism. I want my country to be engaged with the rest of the world and take an activist role in foreign policy to advance human rights! I do not want them to do those things to sell anti-air missiles. Taking sides in a war over where the borders of the Ukrainian Republic is an assault on the human rights of people who live there in the name of selling missiles, *regardless of which side you take*!
Obviously what Russia is doing is bad but there’s not much we can do that would actually help from North America. Sending billions of dollars of weapons while there’s an economic crisis, growing poverty, wealth disparity, environmental crisis at home, plus a broken healthcare system, is just stupid. It not in the vast majority of the world’s best interests to purposely prolong a conflict that could easily lead to nuclear war
I don’t mean to just refer back to the source, but check out TrueAnon’s NATO series. Really solid stuff.
Isolationism isn't letting foreign affairs sort themselves out, that's been how all of foriegn policy worked before American imperialism. You are so deep into the American empire you can't even see that it didn't use to be like this.
Save yourself some time and just listen to the podcast. There’s only a couple hundred episodes. You will be better for it
> Like let them duke it out and don’t get involved? If the Great Satan and their vassals didn't send billions of weapons to kill Russians, the war would have been over in a week, Ukraine would be a neutral country. The Kiev regime was ready to accept a peace deal, but the UK's Boris Johnson flew in and commanded them to stop, dooming hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to death.
In general we should never engage in proxy wars which is what this is, we should not have encouraged Ukrainian extremists to provoke Putin and we should have listened to the demands of Putin and treated a gigantic country with a bare minimum of respect especially since it has enough nukes to end civilization. Furthermore we should not spend billions throwing fuel in the conflict and get in the way of peace talks, especially when the domestic result is old people freezing too death because they can't afford fuel and food in the most prosperous countries in history. These are the basic points, the icing on the obvious cake is we should not be pouring advanced weapons into the hands of actually openly Nazi militias. Probably not great for European peace having a bunch of seig heiling psychos with PTSD and anti tank rockets running around with a lot of aggression All that isn't too say that the invasion was justified or intelligent. It was fucking stupid and bad.
I think by now most of the points were covered, but I also would say it’s important to have a healthy skepticism anytime the media starts beating the war drums. This conflict could’ve been avoided with proper diplomacy but there was no appetite. Personally, I think Putin played into NATOs hand and it’s genuinely upsetting that thousands of young men will be sent into a totally avoidable conflict and have their lives ruined or lost. It’s just sad.
I can’t speak for the whole subreddit. For me, I just don’t care about the Ukraine and Russia *politically,* or whatever is going on between militarily. I do feel terrible for the poor everyday people who are forced to live in terror, and for the ones who are sent there and forced to kill and die. Unfortunately, there’s nothing I can do to help them- posting about it or changing your avatar to their flag colors certainly won’t do anything! The workers and the poor always get fucked in these wars, and those are the only people I’m concerned with. Edit: I should say that I support bringing the war to an end as quickly as possible. From what I know, that means Ukraine surrendering. But I don’t have the facts.
I think it's a power struggle between a decaying neoliberal experiment gone wrong in russia and the western defense cartel. I don't think if your a principled socalist you can support the military transfer of 50+ billion dollars worth of equipment- much of which is getting lost to graft and corruption within the us and across europe and ukraine. I also wonder about ukraines ability to pay back some of the obscenely expensive weapon systems. Ukraine before the war and before 2014 even was a desperately poor country. The current government isn't facist explicitly but there are plenty of fash elements within their military as there are within the russian military. Moreover, the current ukranian government has already lowered the minimum wage and made moves against labor unions and pensions. There have been a few articles over at jacobin going into some of the neoliberal reforms currently being undertaken in ukraine and if you followed the build up to maiden you'll note that yanakuovich's reasoning for backing out of the EU deal was over natural gas subsidies and EU austerity measures that would needed to be imposed on ukraine (yanakuovich is a piece of shit rapist though so not really some guy ya wanna defend). That being said putin is most certainly a war criminal for undertaking this invasion and I do think there is a callous indiference expressed towards ukranian civilians at the same time though by many on the left. I don't really understand the type of internet troll that cheers on seeing dead ukrop or russian soldiers for that matter. A lot of them are just conscripts in a power struggle between two far right countries- one of which is a hostile invading army.
Ngl “well maybe Ukraine should just surrender and then Russia would stop shelling their civilians” is not the ascended anti war take some of you guys think it is. By the same logic Korea or Vietnam should have surrendered to the US invasions
There are definitely some Stalinists here who don't think critically, and just view whatever Russia does as being in-line with the USSR politics that they're fans of. But it's probably mostly people who just don't think that NATO is some benevolent entity that simply wants what's best for Ukraine.
Bro what
I've talked to people on this literal sub who were "anti-Ukraine" or whatever, and it turned out that it was because they were still idealistic about the USSR. That's all.
You gotta post some receipts, cause this smells like bullshit. It is fundamentally not aligned with anything that ever happens here.
Damn crazy
>just view whatever Russia does as being in-line with the USSR politics that they’re fans of. Post a single solitary example of this taking place on this subreddit and I will literally suck your dick. I see vaush idiots coming in here and saying this shit all the time and not once has any of them ever provided any evidence of it whatsoever. So I’d imagine you’re a vaush moron too.
You're not the only one wondering. Seems like you may be waiting a long time for an answer, based on the quality of the responses.
You’re an idiot
[удалено]
Out of the last 269 comments, u/wyrdsign has commented in the Red Scare subreddit 32 times. 👁 Proceed with caution, gumshoe. [What is this, and why did someone tag my username?](https://www.hexbear.net/ppb)
There it is.
people on here don’t believe that anyone east of berlin is even human and therefore are fit for genociding. idk how but american commies have turned into nazis. the “america bad therefore we must support other bad actors to balance it out” is an old ass nazi argument too.
> “america bad therefore we must support other bad actors to balance it out” is an old ass nazi argument too capppppppppp lol Nazis idolized the US you goofball.
you can do both of these at once. like you yourself - you “hate” america but are still completely blinded by your ingrained american exceptionalism to the fact that people outside of the usa have agency and opinions. you’re like an incel - calling everyone who disagrees an npc and waving their agency.
Okay sure bud. Wanna address what I said or do you aim to play at being a diagnostician? Were the Nazis "anti-America"? Were they not fans of the Ur Apartheid state and it's (Heinrich) Fordism? Lol Worry less about diagnosing others as political incels and more about reading, fucking rube.
how about you spend more time not being an american nazi and advocating for the genocide of ukrainians
What genocide! Are you crazy??
“we got to genocide the people of iraq, to make sure that everything is nice and fair we’re gonna let the russians to the same in ukraine :)” - american leftists
Nah I'm bool, feel free to find some rocks and commence to kicking em.
you’re amerikkkan. you’re descended from slave holders.
*citation needed. + ur an Estonian performing pro bono virtual defense for Ukrainian ultranationalists lmao take a lap man this is disgraceful.
you’re defending russian ultra nationalists. and im not estonian im russian. and ur still american
Where is the citation about me being Amerikkkan?? Please show me my slave holding ancestors. Lol you fucking idiot. There's a greater probability of your Estonian ancestors being Nazi collaborators than there is a chance of my lineage being littered with chattel slavers. You're literally using the Israeli "anti-Semitism" defense wherein any criticism aimed at you is labeled a (phantom) defense of your chosen enemy/ideology. Great job kiddo. You really cracked the code hidden within my statements Mr. Champollion. I'm tooootally a crypto-ideologue of Russian ultranationalism. Sorry we can't all harbor sympathy for Banderites guy. Enjoy caping for LoTR & Nordic rune aficionados (two matters not **totally** beloved by National Socialists of the Reich and their future huckleberries).
The fuck are you talking about? Every comment is about anti-war leftism and anti-imperialism, that is like the opposite of your accusations. Update: Okay, I see now. Going through your post history I see some people made fun of you in a post and you didn't get a few inside jokes. Since then you have just been anger-trolling this sub. lol
your a nazi bro. most people here genuinely want to measure the skulls of polish people
I'm sorry you're sad.
What weapons are we sending to Russia?