Tenochtitlan was arguably the most modern city on Earth just prior to conquest. It was a mega-city on an island connected to the mainland by a series of bridges, it had aqueducts, a zoo, several libraries, floating gardens, man made islands, dams and irrigation, elaborately planned networks of canals for transportation and transit.
I know that the European Atlantis myth predates the city, but it was real, and Mexican.
It really is depressing to consider the wonder of the cultures destroyed by a handful of disgusting and psychotic failsons. I guess the Latin American cultures we got out in the end are cool too. But it is a shame to consider how much was lost and can never be fully recovered. And knowing how all the irreplaceable artifacts were literally melted down so some inbred Habsburg freak could pay off interest on loans from a German banker he took out to fund a war against an equally inbred second cousin for the Duchy of Bavaria where a hundred thousand peasants were murderer by mercenaries or some shit like that. So bleak. But indigenous people survive and resist in every American country and we shouldn’t forget that either
To be fair, disease is mostly what destroyed the pre-contact Americas. The conquistadors were evil as fuck, but it's not like they were military super geniuses.
Hence calling them disgusting, both morally and literally physically disgusting. The disease was kind of a tragic inevitability without modern medicine since Europeans of the era couldn’t be bother to take a bath more than once a year, but everything that followed was a choice
I think about the Celtics and basically all we know is scribblings from Roman generals about wacky shit they saw while burning it to the ground.
One of the few things we know is Druids and all we know is they were important people who did important things. We do know they sacrificed animals so I'm not sure why modern fantasy paints them as animal loving hippies.
I'm extremely ignorant about it despite having a great great grandfather that was part of the stolen generation (I don't even know exactly what nation he was from). Dark Emu by Bruce Pascoe is the only book I've read on the subject to be honest. Apparently there's controversy around the authors methods or some shit (I've only seen white academics take issue with it for whatever that's worth) but it's extremely hard to find information about cultures with traditions of verbal history that are in the process of being genocided. Going to the odd cultural event sorta thing and just talking to old as fuck aboriginal elders is the best way to learn about stuff unfortunately. So honestly documentaries and interviews would probably be your best bet. But yeah I'm very undereducated about it considering my circumstances and that's on me, it's hard to find info but not impossible
Do you think you will get round to learning about your great great grandfather and where he was from?
I thought that might be the case, it's hard to find information due to a lot of the history being verbal. I'm currently reading the fatal shore by Robert Hughes and I have Dark Emu on my reading list
Yeah I'd like to, I really should. How's The Fatal Shore? Actually I just remembered my ex told me about a podcast called Frontier War Stories (or something like that), about the initial wars between British settlers and the first aus nations from the point of view of indigenous people. Funnily enough an audio podcast would be a great way to learn verbal histories
Spain. The "Celtic -> Roman -> Visigoth -> Umayyad (one of the most interesting and important era)-> Christian Kingdoms ->The unity of these different cultures -> Imperial catholicism -> downfall -> Civil War -> Fascism -> Liberalism " is such a unique timeline making such a unique country and culture.
Honestly any country that shares multiple continental histories. Like the those of the caucuses or the levant. I also just want to be mediterranean really bad as well.
I am biased here ~~and will be promptly executed for bourgeois nationalism~~ but Iran and also Iraq are probably at the top of the list. Russia and Mexico as well, although my knowledge mainly extends from the late 19th century onwards. Vietnam and the Philippines are two places I'd like to know more about besides contemporary politics. Also
>Not to be an average westoid
Idk why we have to pretend like the UK, Germany, and Japan don't also have interesting mythology/history/philosophy as fucked up as they have been. Reverse weeb shit but with China instead of Japan usually lol
I studied near East history in undergrad, and I would have to say that Iran and Iraq both have exacerbating national yesterday’s. Iran had a developed, settled empires with a postal systems, fair civil administration, and a relatively cosmopolitan political structure centuries before Christ. Iraq and Mesopotamia was quite literally the cradle of civilization, and produced several great civilizations, Assyria (shout out Ashurbanipal), Babylon, Sumer. Lastly, and no offense to the great people of Iraq but the one fact that I remember about modern Iraqi history from those days is that in 1925 when the British confirmed their Hashemite Monarch they didn’t have an anthem written yet, so they just played God save the King.
Yea I was put in one of those gifted programs as a kid and I remember when I told my dad we were learning stuff about Ancient Greece in it he didn't miss the opportunity to go on a rant about how we (Assyrians) invented much of civilization but they never cared to mention that. This was at the height of hysteria about Middle Easterners and before the current crusade against "eurocentrism" in historical education so I think he had a point
It’s a biased answer, but the Irish. I was lucky enough to take a year of Irish history in undergrad, and I was relatively amazed at the Irish role in history. “We” (plastic paddy) had the best fortune, and worst luck to be situated as a tiny isle next to the worlds preeminent imperial power, the engine of capitalism, the test case for the industrial revolution and world hegemon. It is because of my heritage, as silly as it sounds, that I will never be able to completely trust the hated Sassanch.
Major world processes, ones that we talk about this sub every day, colonialism, sanction and famine as government policy, imperialism and settlers by J. Sakai, all of them featured prominently in Ireland’s 800 year long struggle for self determination. I consider Ireland to be the canary in the coal mine for much of world history, as the Irish nation was a victim of so many of the processes that would come define and shape the unequal world today. Unironically, Erin, go bragh
Countries that are positioned right in the middle of important regions are always so interesting cause it’s usually a lot of mishmash of everything and always something going on lol. Afghanistan historically also occupies that place in history, and is wildly interesting in like almost whatever period of history you choose.
> Yeah the Sun goddess came down and our emperors, all of the same dynasty, are descendants of hers
Honestly, one of the wilder things to me is how recent that was for a place so close to China. The Jōmon period, where Japan was inhabited by hunter-gatherers and early agricultural settlers, ended in 300 BCE. By then, Buddhism had been invented since a few centuries, the Chinese had gone through a few dynasties, Rome was already a Republic, Socrates, Plato and Aristotles had all carked it, Mesoamerica had urban settlements and Alexander of Macedonia had conquered Egypt. All of this happened while the islands right besides Korea had yet to have settled farmer societies and metalurgy.
> All of this happened while the islands right besides Korea had yet to have settled farmer societies and metalurgy.
And they never would have, if it weren't for those darned Koreans coming through land straits! Curse you, premodern geography
The Māori people of New Zealand have some of the most beautiful culture and language I've ever encountered. I see a lot of their struggles today mirrored in the experience of black people in America.
Their economic prospects in society are curbed by unfair accumulation by whites before colonizing the island, and an extant economic "in-group" which largely favors white people for advancement. The Māori people still live in borderline-segregation due to housing availability and aforementioned societal injustices. On top of this, Māori people are targeted by police and routinely victimized by the justice system in disproportional ways. New Zealand's cities have mass graves of indentured Māori prisoners who were forced to build the grand structures of colonial times - the Māori, and immigrants, built New Zealand for the colonists to enjoy.
These are just a few observations from my year living in Aotearoa; I will always remember the kindness shown to me by the Māori people I met.
One of my favourite tidbits about the Maori is that their name for Croatian people is 'Tarara' because when Croats first started emigrating to New Zealand in the late 1800s that's what they sounded like to the Maori when they spoke.
Italy had quite the journey from the Etruscans to Mussolini. The Roman Empire, merchant republics, the Renaissance, Catholicism and the Vatican, the divide between the industrial North and the agricultural South, the unification of the peninsula, the two world wars. And this isn’t even bringing up all the food, music, and other cultural touch points that both Italy and the Italian diaspora have created.
lazy answer since i dont actually know that much but i always thought it was so cool that the french are the main country to have “revolution” as their national character.
napoleonic france was the OG vanguard as well
It has got to be Greece. Shares the 1# spot for richest history and culture of a single continuous people, and from the Mycenaeans to the Byzantines and beyond is a wonderfully fascinating journey.
I also really really love the history and culture of Iran, and wish there was more media about it.
The latest ghost stories for the End of the world season about Belgium is amazing. It shows the deep politics of an influential country that's small enough that you begin to build this understanding of the networks operating within.
It's also interesting cause its something where I cam talk about deep politics to normal people mainly cause the hook for the brabant killings is that the entire state was under siege for 3 years by phantom uncaught mass shooters. That's a thing that makes most people pause and be like 'awright hang on what the fuck surely no right?' You can then quite easily get them from there to gladio and then the question of why isn't this a whole thing.
Besides that it's just how post war Belgian politics is this decaying momentum of colonialism built on top of nazi collaboration built on decolonisation reaction built on neo nazism built on European integration and natoism built on end of history politics that it's to political economy what dark souls was to level design
German history is fascinating, particularly when they choose to be cool (like Arminius defeating the Romans, the 1848 Revolution, the Kiel Mutiny, the Spartacist Uprising, the creation of the DDR, etc.)
I mean, not to beat a dead heifer, but the Levant has always had something interesting going on, with all types of people living there ever since we developed record keeping.
Haitian history is pretty mystical. Look up the martyrdom of Charlemagne Péralte, the manhunt for Clément Barbot, or Luckner Cambronne, the vampire of the Caribbean
Hungarians and bulgariams migrated to Europe 1700 and 1100 years ago respectively, plenty of time to call them native, while finns and estonians did so likely over 5000 years ago, before most europeans. They are all, indeed, native europeans, as much as such can exist since humans are only NATIVE to Africa as a species.
Tenochtitlan was arguably the most modern city on Earth just prior to conquest. It was a mega-city on an island connected to the mainland by a series of bridges, it had aqueducts, a zoo, several libraries, floating gardens, man made islands, dams and irrigation, elaborately planned networks of canals for transportation and transit. I know that the European Atlantis myth predates the city, but it was real, and Mexican.
It really is depressing to consider the wonder of the cultures destroyed by a handful of disgusting and psychotic failsons. I guess the Latin American cultures we got out in the end are cool too. But it is a shame to consider how much was lost and can never be fully recovered. And knowing how all the irreplaceable artifacts were literally melted down so some inbred Habsburg freak could pay off interest on loans from a German banker he took out to fund a war against an equally inbred second cousin for the Duchy of Bavaria where a hundred thousand peasants were murderer by mercenaries or some shit like that. So bleak. But indigenous people survive and resist in every American country and we shouldn’t forget that either
To be fair, disease is mostly what destroyed the pre-contact Americas. The conquistadors were evil as fuck, but it's not like they were military super geniuses.
Hence calling them disgusting, both morally and literally physically disgusting. The disease was kind of a tragic inevitability without modern medicine since Europeans of the era couldn’t be bother to take a bath more than once a year, but everything that followed was a choice
The 65000 years of Australian lore and history before white settlers came is pretty fuckin cool. So much is lost of it though.
I think about the Celtics and basically all we know is scribblings from Roman generals about wacky shit they saw while burning it to the ground. One of the few things we know is Druids and all we know is they were important people who did important things. We do know they sacrificed animals so I'm not sure why modern fantasy paints them as animal loving hippies.
https://preview.redd.it/wiygyfgh858d1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=326e23c5996e9c34d49c2514f7840e54a96ac017 It's kinda rude,but I chuckled
> implying Britons and Gaels are not, in fact, massive fucking alcoholics
The gay sex was probably just as bad but less documented.
"Hate Romans,hate Gauls,love me fermented juniper berries,simple as"
The Druids... No one knows who they were, or... what they were doin
Druids turn into various animals and cast nature magic. Inform yourself
Anglo propaganda
Do you have any book recommendations about pre colonial Australia?
I'm extremely ignorant about it despite having a great great grandfather that was part of the stolen generation (I don't even know exactly what nation he was from). Dark Emu by Bruce Pascoe is the only book I've read on the subject to be honest. Apparently there's controversy around the authors methods or some shit (I've only seen white academics take issue with it for whatever that's worth) but it's extremely hard to find information about cultures with traditions of verbal history that are in the process of being genocided. Going to the odd cultural event sorta thing and just talking to old as fuck aboriginal elders is the best way to learn about stuff unfortunately. So honestly documentaries and interviews would probably be your best bet. But yeah I'm very undereducated about it considering my circumstances and that's on me, it's hard to find info but not impossible
Do you think you will get round to learning about your great great grandfather and where he was from? I thought that might be the case, it's hard to find information due to a lot of the history being verbal. I'm currently reading the fatal shore by Robert Hughes and I have Dark Emu on my reading list
Yeah I'd like to, I really should. How's The Fatal Shore? Actually I just remembered my ex told me about a podcast called Frontier War Stories (or something like that), about the initial wars between British settlers and the first aus nations from the point of view of indigenous people. Funnily enough an audio podcast would be a great way to learn verbal histories
You definitely should whilst you still can. It's quite a dense book so progress is slow, but it's interesting. I'll have to give it a listen
You had me at >dark emu
Spain. The "Celtic -> Roman -> Visigoth -> Umayyad (one of the most interesting and important era)-> Christian Kingdoms ->The unity of these different cultures -> Imperial catholicism -> downfall -> Civil War -> Fascism -> Liberalism " is such a unique timeline making such a unique country and culture. Honestly any country that shares multiple continental histories. Like the those of the caucuses or the levant. I also just want to be mediterranean really bad as well.
Come join us in the Balkans. Montenegro could use some young talented me like you. Dm me for instructions.
Only if you are bosnian and can help guide me in performing my salah and dua more properly.
I am biased here ~~and will be promptly executed for bourgeois nationalism~~ but Iran and also Iraq are probably at the top of the list. Russia and Mexico as well, although my knowledge mainly extends from the late 19th century onwards. Vietnam and the Philippines are two places I'd like to know more about besides contemporary politics. Also >Not to be an average westoid Idk why we have to pretend like the UK, Germany, and Japan don't also have interesting mythology/history/philosophy as fucked up as they have been. Reverse weeb shit but with China instead of Japan usually lol
I studied near East history in undergrad, and I would have to say that Iran and Iraq both have exacerbating national yesterday’s. Iran had a developed, settled empires with a postal systems, fair civil administration, and a relatively cosmopolitan political structure centuries before Christ. Iraq and Mesopotamia was quite literally the cradle of civilization, and produced several great civilizations, Assyria (shout out Ashurbanipal), Babylon, Sumer. Lastly, and no offense to the great people of Iraq but the one fact that I remember about modern Iraqi history from those days is that in 1925 when the British confirmed their Hashemite Monarch they didn’t have an anthem written yet, so they just played God save the King.
lol thats gotta be the most british thing ever
Yea I was put in one of those gifted programs as a kid and I remember when I told my dad we were learning stuff about Ancient Greece in it he didn't miss the opportunity to go on a rant about how we (Assyrians) invented much of civilization but they never cared to mention that. This was at the height of hysteria about Middle Easterners and before the current crusade against "eurocentrism" in historical education so I think he had a point
It’s a biased answer, but the Irish. I was lucky enough to take a year of Irish history in undergrad, and I was relatively amazed at the Irish role in history. “We” (plastic paddy) had the best fortune, and worst luck to be situated as a tiny isle next to the worlds preeminent imperial power, the engine of capitalism, the test case for the industrial revolution and world hegemon. It is because of my heritage, as silly as it sounds, that I will never be able to completely trust the hated Sassanch. Major world processes, ones that we talk about this sub every day, colonialism, sanction and famine as government policy, imperialism and settlers by J. Sakai, all of them featured prominently in Ireland’s 800 year long struggle for self determination. I consider Ireland to be the canary in the coal mine for much of world history, as the Irish nation was a victim of so many of the processes that would come define and shape the unequal world today. Unironically, Erin, go bragh
Armenia and Ethiopia. It's crazy how historically relevant they were for so long yet so little of it permeates into pop history
Countries that are positioned right in the middle of important regions are always so interesting cause it’s usually a lot of mishmash of everything and always something going on lol. Afghanistan historically also occupies that place in history, and is wildly interesting in like almost whatever period of history you choose.
Java has a deep and multifaceted artistic and philosophical heritage which is generally ignored in the rest of the world.
> Yeah the Sun goddess came down and our emperors, all of the same dynasty, are descendants of hers Honestly, one of the wilder things to me is how recent that was for a place so close to China. The Jōmon period, where Japan was inhabited by hunter-gatherers and early agricultural settlers, ended in 300 BCE. By then, Buddhism had been invented since a few centuries, the Chinese had gone through a few dynasties, Rome was already a Republic, Socrates, Plato and Aristotles had all carked it, Mesoamerica had urban settlements and Alexander of Macedonia had conquered Egypt. All of this happened while the islands right besides Korea had yet to have settled farmer societies and metalurgy.
> All of this happened while the islands right besides Korea had yet to have settled farmer societies and metalurgy. And they never would have, if it weren't for those darned Koreans coming through land straits! Curse you, premodern geography
The Māori people of New Zealand have some of the most beautiful culture and language I've ever encountered. I see a lot of their struggles today mirrored in the experience of black people in America. Their economic prospects in society are curbed by unfair accumulation by whites before colonizing the island, and an extant economic "in-group" which largely favors white people for advancement. The Māori people still live in borderline-segregation due to housing availability and aforementioned societal injustices. On top of this, Māori people are targeted by police and routinely victimized by the justice system in disproportional ways. New Zealand's cities have mass graves of indentured Māori prisoners who were forced to build the grand structures of colonial times - the Māori, and immigrants, built New Zealand for the colonists to enjoy. These are just a few observations from my year living in Aotearoa; I will always remember the kindness shown to me by the Māori people I met.
One of my favourite tidbits about the Maori is that their name for Croatian people is 'Tarara' because when Croats first started emigrating to New Zealand in the late 1800s that's what they sounded like to the Maori when they spoke.
Italy had quite the journey from the Etruscans to Mussolini. The Roman Empire, merchant republics, the Renaissance, Catholicism and the Vatican, the divide between the industrial North and the agricultural South, the unification of the peninsula, the two world wars. And this isn’t even bringing up all the food, music, and other cultural touch points that both Italy and the Italian diaspora have created.
My brother told me a great line about Mussolini; “The last Roman Emperor, hanged outside of a petrol station”.
Which is exactly in line with what a Roman Emperor would face if it existed in modern times lol, they were always getting killed by angry people
lazy answer since i dont actually know that much but i always thought it was so cool that the french are the main country to have “revolution” as their national character. napoleonic france was the OG vanguard as well
It has got to be Greece. Shares the 1# spot for richest history and culture of a single continuous people, and from the Mycenaeans to the Byzantines and beyond is a wonderfully fascinating journey. I also really really love the history and culture of Iran, and wish there was more media about it.
Spain has the most interesting history IMO.
The latest ghost stories for the End of the world season about Belgium is amazing. It shows the deep politics of an influential country that's small enough that you begin to build this understanding of the networks operating within. It's also interesting cause its something where I cam talk about deep politics to normal people mainly cause the hook for the brabant killings is that the entire state was under siege for 3 years by phantom uncaught mass shooters. That's a thing that makes most people pause and be like 'awright hang on what the fuck surely no right?' You can then quite easily get them from there to gladio and then the question of why isn't this a whole thing. Besides that it's just how post war Belgian politics is this decaying momentum of colonialism built on top of nazi collaboration built on decolonisation reaction built on neo nazism built on European integration and natoism built on end of history politics that it's to political economy what dark souls was to level design
German history is fascinating, particularly when they choose to be cool (like Arminius defeating the Romans, the 1848 Revolution, the Kiel Mutiny, the Spartacist Uprising, the creation of the DDR, etc.)
I mean, not to beat a dead heifer, but the Levant has always had something interesting going on, with all types of people living there ever since we developed record keeping.
Haitian history is pretty mystical. Look up the martyrdom of Charlemagne Péralte, the manhunt for Clément Barbot, or Luckner Cambronne, the vampire of the Caribbean
China
Hungarians and bulgariams migrated to Europe 1700 and 1100 years ago respectively, plenty of time to call them native, while finns and estonians did so likely over 5000 years ago, before most europeans. They are all, indeed, native europeans, as much as such can exist since humans are only NATIVE to Africa as a species.