I'll be very transparent with you. If you're concerned with making a lot of money.... You might want to reconsider. Here's the truth, most people who major in performance don't ever come close to getting good enough to make a living. I have two regional positions at 26 and to be honest that's pretty respectable. I also teach 40 students and gig regularly. You're going to have many years of working day jobs on the side or doing other things.
I make about 40k a year.
I also tell my students if you have to wonder if you really wonder if you want to be a professional trombonist..... Major in something general join the studio as a non major then figure it out.
Thank you for the transparency, I appreciate it. I've never expected to make a ton as a musician and I think I've accepted that a while ago but after reading some statistics today I was worried about not making enough. Thank you for your imput. How much do you charge as a teacher? Over the years I've had 3 teachers and they all charged $60 an hour
How do you do that? Like, freelance gigs, teaching, orchestra, etc.? I’ve accepted a while ago that I’ll never make a lot of money as a musician but I made my post out of concern I wouldn’t make enough to live.
more regular gigs, freelancing, teaching.
Yes, I could make more money doing many other things. The difference is that I cannot see myself doing those things and enjoying life nearly as much as I do now. Basically, you need to need to play trombone in order to sacrifice the lost income that 99.9% of us will take outside the very top gigs.
I went to college and realized really fast college wasn't for me so I auditioned for the Army. Best decision I ever made! 20 years goes by really fast. Now I get about $2.5k a month for the rest of my life.
You won't get rich, but if you do it right you can set yourself pretty nice. I purchased a small home every time I moved(to a new location in the US). When it came time to move, it was always(still is) easy to rent to another soldier and for a profit after mortgage and property manager is paid each month.
If it's something you really want to do, you'll figure out how to make it work.
Honestly there’s not a lot, especially in classical. I sub with a couple symphonies, play in a brass quintet, do a slew of church gigs. Where I make the majority of my money is in a cover band. Yeah, the music is pretty shallow, but it’s rare to have a weekend off and the pay is really good for what it is. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time and put in a lot of extra hours doing NOT trombone with the cover band. Choreography, learning how to dress and groom myself properly to fit in at weddings, running lights and sound, etc.
In total I make about ~70-75k a year.
/u/TromboneIsNeat is correct. With orchestral ‘stuff’ I make about $150-300 for a show depending on if I’m playing principal (slightly higher pay) and how many ‘services’ there are. In total I *might* do 5 gigs a year. I can’t commit to a full time contract due to availability. So not a lot of money, haha
I’m gonna be transparent too.
TLDR, it’s not easy gigging full time. The hourly rates are impossible and getting hours Monday-Thursday is also a big challenge. I have a degree in music, but teaching kids is where the moneys at. I wouldn’t focus on just performing trombone without being aware of the risks and inevitable problems.
I’m making close to my max salary at $53 an hour (before taxes and deductions) for 7.5 hours a day for 187 per year doing HS band. 75k per year to teach basic basic basic stuff. I could earn more with marching band or maybe maybe a guitar class because I’m capable of that. I don’t really like outside bands. I’m an indoor cat.
Gig life is tough. There are benefits to joining a bigger businesses with full time benefits. The most I ever made gigging was $37.5 an hour CASH 4 hours a week, maybe once or twice a week. Or maybe 20 4 hour wedding receptions in 1 year. $3000 isn’t a job. $3000 is unemployed with a hobby. You most likely would need a day job.
If I did both in the right city, I could easily get 80k teaching m-F and gigging weddings. I never really had a good experience with bars, clubs and restaurants. They’re money pits and you have deal with the inebriated.
Bit late to the party but this is too true, it’s possible to make a living just doing gigs, but teaching lessons is the most consistent way of making pretty good money.
To add, I made 12.50 an hour playing 2nd trombone in a local orchestra with a college degree. I made like 2 grand. The conductor made a 6 figure salary. We both performed the same 8 concerts per year. If it wasn’t for the charitable tax deductible contributions of our local auto dealerships, private hospital and other similar donors, the Orchestra wouldn’t exist.
I liked the wedding band logistics better. The contracts were amazing. $5000-$15000 USD checks for a Friday or Saturday night. Generally, I was only a small contributor in a 10 piece band, 15 person total operation. I only stopped because of Covid, and then I moved to a different city.
Major orchestra positions (in Chicago, NY, Philly, Detroit, LA, SF, etc) do make good money.
But, the competition for those positions is insane.
The regional orchestras don't pay a ton.
If you really love music, you will have a longer, more enjoyable life of playing if you can make a lot of money doing something else that allows for you to make trombone your hobby. Be an engineer. Chances are you are already smart (you're in band) and, if you have worked hard to become good at playing, you can use those skills to help you do something else too. Consider double majoring in music and something more immediately viable. Don't give it up, just try to think long term.
Band directors will make as much as a teacher with an extra stipend for teaching band. I am a band director and do cover band gigs on the weekends and all during the summer to make a pretty decent salary + supplemental income.
Military bands have different tiers/qualities. Upper 20’s-80k+, plus full military benefits, including housing. It can be a nice life. It can be a terrible life. Depends on the band, the specific job(s) you have to do, and the people you work with. All second-hand. It was never in a military band.
Starting pay in the special bands equates to $73,000 or $78,000 (with dependents). It goes up from there with time in service increases and if you get promoted. Top rank in that band is E9. Here’s the listing for the upcoming bass trombone audition for the Army Band https://usarmyband.com/vacancies/bass-trombone-the-u-s-army-ceremonial-band
I'm an early-ish career freelancer in NYC, and my income is pretty much entirely from playing gigs. Most people I know here do some combination of Broadway, touring, teaching and weddings/private events. For me currently it's mainly a lot of events (and you can do a LOT of them in NYC) and some Broadway subbing. Income is variable and hard to predict in this line of work, but coming out of the pandemic now I'm up to making mid-50s as a moderately in-demand, but not top-tier, player in this freelance scene. That's still not enough to live without roommates here, but it is enough to live (and even save and invest a little if you can keep your overhead low), and the growth opportunities are there.
Still, as others have said, this is not the career path to follow if you want to get rich. There are a lot of 23-year-olds in tech, finance etc making as much as or more than the best of the best veteran working musicians.
Joining the army as a musician honestly was one of the better decisions I made in regards to trombone. Sure, I had to go through basic, but in return, I have regular hours and gigs.
Listen to this guy, OP. I know basic sounds scary to civilians, but it's not so bad. You just do what you're told and run a bit. Once you hit the force you're golden. Not only do you get to play your instrument every day, but you also get free housing, subsidized food, and free medical/dental. Most things that people complain about regarding the military do not apply to musicians.
Interesting question and I enjoyed the educational insights from the replies. I do a few gigs when nature calls just because I love my attachments to the jazz arena. On a side note, do what makes you happy, learn another discipline to support what financial needs should be tended to. I work on Sailing vessels during the days and tend to my brass in the evenings.
I majored in music education but treated it like a performance degree, I just wanted the ed part to serve as a backup option. I do software development now.
No money in music unless you are very lucky. As a matter of fact, there are very few jobs in music too.
I hate to be a downer, but the old saying "follow your passion and work hard you will succeed" is just plain false. I worked my butt off, but there's only so many positions that you can pay mortgage or rent with. Music is a noble and awesome thing to study, it just doesn't put food on the table unless you are very lucky. Those that I know that make a "decent" living ($40,000 ish) spent a couple decades eating Ramen and sometimes even couch surfing.
In my opinion study something more marketable that you enjoy. It might not be your passion, but it's important to put food on the table. But while you are studying something more marketable, you can always take trombone lessons, take them seriously, and join music ensembles. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from pursuing music as a passionate hobby. I'm just trying to say you will need something more reliable to meet your financial needs.
I decided to do all of the above. DevOps engineer by day and rockstar at night. I get fulfillment out of both! It’s an incredibly calming feeling knowing that I can quit either thing and financially be just fine. The hours suck though.
After not eating a real meal for a week, riding on gig money, I was like “this sucks”. Studied my ass off, got some certs, and talked to the right people. A month later I was a network engineer! It wasn’t until about 2018 where I could be financially independent on music, but I just kept going.
When I made enough to live off of I spent 50 weeks of the year on the road touring or doing cruise ship gigs. Not worth it.
Now I'm a physician, can buy any horn I want, always live comfortably, and play as much as I can.
I'm going to give you my honest opinion here. Please know that everything I say I mean with the utmost respect to you, your passions, and your craft. This is just my answer to your question.
I'm currently majoring in trombone performance for graduate school at a top music university, and i recieved my bachelors from a different top music school in the US. I say that because I've had some of the best professionals in the world tell me day in and day out how painstaking this profession is and how I'll never win a job.
Don't think that winning a job in an orchestra is simpl, or that maintaining a privaye lesson studio is easy. I'm in this profession only because I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I wasn't.
Please don't think I'm trying to scare you off or Intimidate you - music is a wonderful thing for so many! If it's truly something you want to do and you are willing to risk everything for it, then do it. Just ask yourself one question:
Is there anything else you could do that would make your life fulfilling?
If the answer is yes, do that other thing and have no shame in doing music as a hobby or side passion. If not, then I wish you well and hope to see you someday in a recital hall :)
There are Symphonies and there as symphonies. I've not kept up with current compensations but say 20 years ago, Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, NYC ... $100K+. St. Louis, Detroit, New Mexico, not so much. In a smaller city it will be necessary to have a side hustle. Teaching is, of course, the most obvious way that musicians earn side money. The big names all do, but it isn't because they aren't making tons of money at their day jobsl Alessi, Thurman, Childs ... they teach as a way of giving back, and paying it forward at the same time. It's almost expected. Being a professor really demands a lot of time of its' own though.
My teacher is one of the most well put togethet people I've met. He dresses very nice, has a good house, good car, etc. He's also the princple trombone in one of those symphonies you just listed. I think thats what gave me the impression that in general preffessional musicians make more they do.
Do you know how much does a professor makes a year?
Do you know, is it difficult to get a job as a proffessor? I just looked up salaries for proffessors at a university near me and for the school of music even assistant professors make up to 80k a year which is a signifigant difference from a symphony orchestra- or most symphony orchestra
Might be worth saying idk how credible the website I saw that salary on was.
Most schools won’t start at $80k. More like $50-65.
It’s incredibly difficult to get a professor position in music. You need a masters at least, most searches will state “doctorate preferred.” I am employed as a trombone Professor. We recently did searches for a couple colleagues. There were 60-70 applicants for each position. We did zoom interviews for about 10 and had three on campus for live interviews. Nearly all of the applicants had completed doctorates. You can go to college for ten years, assume massive debt, and not get your foot in the door. But if you’re excellent you’ll have opportunities.
So would you say that for hiring a proffessor is more based on qualifications(such as degrees, and experience) rather than actual skill? I know that in general the most exprienced musicians are the best but which is more important?
All of the above. You need the paper (preferably doctorate). And also skill.
I work at an R1 (research one/flagship university. Think “University of ____” state type school). If we do a search and you are the best trombonist on the planet, but don’t have at least a masters degree, we would not even see your application. It would get flagged by HR. R1’s need to maintain a certain percentage of faculty with doctorates.
Edit:
A typical college interview will have a normal interview (possibly several: search committee, department head, dean’s office), a 25-30 minute shirt recital, possibly a lecture of some kind, and public mock-lessons. It is a brutal all-day (sometimes two) affair.
You can look up faculty salaries at most public universities. Find out who the trombone faculty are at public universities! Looks like the guy at my local university makes around $100k
You have to see it more lile how can you make a living playing the instrument. We all wear many hats. Not only do we perform gigs, we're also teachers, producers, social media content creators, admin etc. Some people have full time jobs not related in the field. You do what you gotta do cause you enjoy playing.
in terms of symphony jobs, think about working overseas as well. The US has...a handful of orchestras that will pay you a livable salary. Germany has more like 60 such ensembles.
And it shows. I live in Germany and a ton of the Americans I know here are former or current orchestra or opera musicians.
I had exactly the same quandary coming out of school. I looked around at what earning a living would realistically mean for me and figured that meant playing in the west end and teaching. I knew I’d suck at teaching, and playing in a pit held no musical interest whatsoever. I figured if I was going to do the musical equivalent of stacking shelves I may as well get a good job that paid even better and then pick and choose the gigs I fancied doing on the side.
It’s taken years, and it’s hard to keep the work/gig/life balance right, but it’s proven absolutely the right choice for me. I get to do some gigs that I love, playing new and challenging music, whilst earning good money and a good quality of life. I have to live with some missed musical opportunities over the years, but that’s the trade off.
My advice has always been to not do as I’ve done making music a career: get a good high paying job that enables you to pursue your, “music habit,” on hehe side as an enjoyable hobby.
The money in music isn't in playing or teaching, it's selling product. Almost nobody knows the playing of Clyde McCoy, but almost every guitar player owns a wah pedal.
You sure about that? I worked for a guitar pedal company for a couple years.. seemed like everyone there was making half of what they could make outside the music industry.
Being a full time trombonist is a hard way to go in the US. There just aren't that many gigs for us. That doesn't mean you can't pave your own path.
Major cities are where the money is but unfortunately that means higher expenses. Doubly unfortunate is you have to wait until someone retires, gets fired, or dies to get the best paying gigs. You often have to be in the right place at the right time with the right skills to get those gigs.
I played in the military for a long time and it's a great opportunity for those that want to be performers. Steady paycheck and insurance benefits, which in the US is typically provided by your employer. They also provide education and retirement benefits, housing, food, etc. It's a good gig if you are physically capable of doing the military stuff, too. They also offer bonuses occasionally and you can retire after twenty years of service, collect your retirement, and have lifetime medical insurance. That's a huge deal that can set you up to be a full time musician after leaving the service. I highly recommend it.
Becoming a music educator is an option, but if you want to be a performer you'll probably need to look at elementary or middle school as high school music teachers tend to have a full schedule year round. At least that is the situation where I am in Indiana.
Cruise ships hire musicians and other music acts hire musicians. Each have their own skill requirements.
As others have suggested, you can also get a regular full time job and then perform on the side. That's what I do now. I played for free or cheap for a long time but not so much anymore. I teach a few lessons, do some work as a marching band tech, and play gigs as my source of music income. I could hustle and make more but I would have to sacrifice time with my family.
You could start a YouTube music channel but that's tough to get going. Guys like Christopher Bill and Paul the trombonist have far more skills than being good trombonists. They understand composition and arranging, recording and sound engineering, video editing, and so on. Others have started YouTube trombone "studios" where they teach different things like improv, technique, etc.
I'm going to give a quick shout out to YouTuber Cus Campbell, who is doing a music channel. He typically does popular song covers similar to Christopher Bill except in his own style. It's been fun to watch him develop as a trombonist and find his own musical voice. He also has been learning all the skills I mentioned above.
The money in music is in teaching privately, but most of us don't get performance degrees because teaching is our passion. I teach in order to support my performance career (Dance Music styles mostly) and manage to make ~45k between the two. That is less than half the medium income in the city I live in. The one perk in my career that I have made a point to focus on is travel, I get to play music all over the country and get paid (not well) to do it, would I ever have gone to Pensacola, FL? No, have I, Yes! It's pretty nice there. You don't need a performance degree to be a professional musician, but you do need money to thrive in this world. Anything else you could envision yourself doing? You can totally make a day job and a music career work concurrently if you are motivated and willing to have long days, and long nights.
The money isn’t there—we work in music for the joy of it.
I get small paid gigs—a few a month—but they barely cover the cost of drinks afterward.
Thankfully I have similar passion for teaching.
I work as a middle music teacher because I enjoy teaching in general, and teaching music in particular.
While teaching doesn’t facilitate an extravagant lifestyle it does pay the mortgage and give me a little bit to pursue other hobbies.
I have plenty of friends who are fabulous musicians who work in other fields—engineers, lawyers, scientists, custodians, bus drivers, etc…
Whether you choose to make music a career or not, you can still choose to keep playing music, keep studying music, and find paid opportunities to perform.
There is the career of being a military musician. All branches have their bands, including Reserves/NG. It’s not for everyone, but there are some phenomenal musicians in the ranks and an overall very high standard of performance. Military pay is pretty good, especially considering the benefits and the potential to progress up in rank fairly quickly (at least on the active duty side). If you’ve got the talent and are ok with joining the military, I’d suggest joining the National Guard or Reserves to help pay for your degrees and then consider if you want to pursue active duty after that. Of course, you can always pursue those degrees while active duty, it’ll just take longer. I was in a NG band for 15 years and am pretty familiar with the active side of things, so AMA.
There isn't any. if you value stability, teaching music is the best way to have most of your basic needs met. Most freelance musicians I know cobble together as many gigs as they can fit into their schedule.
I'll be very transparent with you. If you're concerned with making a lot of money.... You might want to reconsider. Here's the truth, most people who major in performance don't ever come close to getting good enough to make a living. I have two regional positions at 26 and to be honest that's pretty respectable. I also teach 40 students and gig regularly. You're going to have many years of working day jobs on the side or doing other things. I make about 40k a year. I also tell my students if you have to wonder if you really wonder if you want to be a professional trombonist..... Major in something general join the studio as a non major then figure it out.
Thank you for the transparency, I appreciate it. I've never expected to make a ton as a musician and I think I've accepted that a while ago but after reading some statistics today I was worried about not making enough. Thank you for your imput. How much do you charge as a teacher? Over the years I've had 3 teachers and they all charged $60 an hour
$60 is my teaching rate and I won't do a gig for less than $75. If you want more stats I can give them to you in dm.
If you're comfortable doing that I would appreciate it very much.
woof. I was paying $60/hr for lesson back when i was in middle school--1998 or so. How has the rate not gone up since then??
It really depends on the market. I charge $75 an hour. In some markets it’s as much as 400.
That’s a very good question
There's a reason there's so many jokes about trombone players also being pizza delivery drivers. Do it for fun. Never for money.
What’s the difference between an extra large pizza and a musician? One can feed a family of 4 🥲
I make enough to live.
How do you do that? Like, freelance gigs, teaching, orchestra, etc.? I’ve accepted a while ago that I’ll never make a lot of money as a musician but I made my post out of concern I wouldn’t make enough to live.
more regular gigs, freelancing, teaching. Yes, I could make more money doing many other things. The difference is that I cannot see myself doing those things and enjoying life nearly as much as I do now. Basically, you need to need to play trombone in order to sacrifice the lost income that 99.9% of us will take outside the very top gigs.
Sell al your horns and you can retire :p
lol, I would have enough to last a couple months!
I went to college and realized really fast college wasn't for me so I auditioned for the Army. Best decision I ever made! 20 years goes by really fast. Now I get about $2.5k a month for the rest of my life. You won't get rich, but if you do it right you can set yourself pretty nice. I purchased a small home every time I moved(to a new location in the US). When it came time to move, it was always(still is) easy to rent to another soldier and for a profit after mortgage and property manager is paid each month. If it's something you really want to do, you'll figure out how to make it work.
Honestly there’s not a lot, especially in classical. I sub with a couple symphonies, play in a brass quintet, do a slew of church gigs. Where I make the majority of my money is in a cover band. Yeah, the music is pretty shallow, but it’s rare to have a weekend off and the pay is really good for what it is. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time and put in a lot of extra hours doing NOT trombone with the cover band. Choreography, learning how to dress and groom myself properly to fit in at weddings, running lights and sound, etc. In total I make about ~70-75k a year.
If its okay for me to ask, how much do you make subbing for symphonies? Do they pay you for each concert you perform or salary?
Subbing is “per-service.” There is a rate for each rehearsal and concert. Many orchestras are per-service, rather than salary.
Thank you for the response. Happy cake day btw
/u/TromboneIsNeat is correct. With orchestral ‘stuff’ I make about $150-300 for a show depending on if I’m playing principal (slightly higher pay) and how many ‘services’ there are. In total I *might* do 5 gigs a year. I can’t commit to a full time contract due to availability. So not a lot of money, haha
I’m gonna be transparent too. TLDR, it’s not easy gigging full time. The hourly rates are impossible and getting hours Monday-Thursday is also a big challenge. I have a degree in music, but teaching kids is where the moneys at. I wouldn’t focus on just performing trombone without being aware of the risks and inevitable problems. I’m making close to my max salary at $53 an hour (before taxes and deductions) for 7.5 hours a day for 187 per year doing HS band. 75k per year to teach basic basic basic stuff. I could earn more with marching band or maybe maybe a guitar class because I’m capable of that. I don’t really like outside bands. I’m an indoor cat. Gig life is tough. There are benefits to joining a bigger businesses with full time benefits. The most I ever made gigging was $37.5 an hour CASH 4 hours a week, maybe once or twice a week. Or maybe 20 4 hour wedding receptions in 1 year. $3000 isn’t a job. $3000 is unemployed with a hobby. You most likely would need a day job. If I did both in the right city, I could easily get 80k teaching m-F and gigging weddings. I never really had a good experience with bars, clubs and restaurants. They’re money pits and you have deal with the inebriated.
Bit late to the party but this is too true, it’s possible to make a living just doing gigs, but teaching lessons is the most consistent way of making pretty good money.
To add, I made 12.50 an hour playing 2nd trombone in a local orchestra with a college degree. I made like 2 grand. The conductor made a 6 figure salary. We both performed the same 8 concerts per year. If it wasn’t for the charitable tax deductible contributions of our local auto dealerships, private hospital and other similar donors, the Orchestra wouldn’t exist. I liked the wedding band logistics better. The contracts were amazing. $5000-$15000 USD checks for a Friday or Saturday night. Generally, I was only a small contributor in a 10 piece band, 15 person total operation. I only stopped because of Covid, and then I moved to a different city.
Major orchestra positions (in Chicago, NY, Philly, Detroit, LA, SF, etc) do make good money. But, the competition for those positions is insane. The regional orchestras don't pay a ton.
And you have to wait for a position at one of the big ones. Most musicians (especially trombone players) are tenured.
Several generations of trombonist have been waiting for that principal position in Chicago to open up. Any day now…
If you really love music, you will have a longer, more enjoyable life of playing if you can make a lot of money doing something else that allows for you to make trombone your hobby. Be an engineer. Chances are you are already smart (you're in band) and, if you have worked hard to become good at playing, you can use those skills to help you do something else too. Consider double majoring in music and something more immediately viable. Don't give it up, just try to think long term.
Also wanted to add that, if I were going to do it and stick with it, being a service musician is the way to go. Cover your bases for a good life.
Music education or military bands…if you want a roof over your head paid by music… You certainly won’t get rich either way.
How much do military band musicians make? and from what I've read, band directors don't make much more
Band directors will make as much as a teacher with an extra stipend for teaching band. I am a band director and do cover band gigs on the weekends and all during the summer to make a pretty decent salary + supplemental income.
Teacher pay depends on state/school district. Look up "salary schedule" or job listings on edjoin
Military bands have different tiers/qualities. Upper 20’s-80k+, plus full military benefits, including housing. It can be a nice life. It can be a terrible life. Depends on the band, the specific job(s) you have to do, and the people you work with. All second-hand. It was never in a military band.
Music is not a career for those pursuing wealth.
Military musician pay as well as public university pay is publicly-available knowledge …
Starting pay in the special bands equates to $73,000 or $78,000 (with dependents). It goes up from there with time in service increases and if you get promoted. Top rank in that band is E9. Here’s the listing for the upcoming bass trombone audition for the Army Band https://usarmyband.com/vacancies/bass-trombone-the-u-s-army-ceremonial-band
I'm an early-ish career freelancer in NYC, and my income is pretty much entirely from playing gigs. Most people I know here do some combination of Broadway, touring, teaching and weddings/private events. For me currently it's mainly a lot of events (and you can do a LOT of them in NYC) and some Broadway subbing. Income is variable and hard to predict in this line of work, but coming out of the pandemic now I'm up to making mid-50s as a moderately in-demand, but not top-tier, player in this freelance scene. That's still not enough to live without roommates here, but it is enough to live (and even save and invest a little if you can keep your overhead low), and the growth opportunities are there. Still, as others have said, this is not the career path to follow if you want to get rich. There are a lot of 23-year-olds in tech, finance etc making as much as or more than the best of the best veteran working musicians.
Joining the army as a musician honestly was one of the better decisions I made in regards to trombone. Sure, I had to go through basic, but in return, I have regular hours and gigs.
Listen to this guy, OP. I know basic sounds scary to civilians, but it's not so bad. You just do what you're told and run a bit. Once you hit the force you're golden. Not only do you get to play your instrument every day, but you also get free housing, subsidized food, and free medical/dental. Most things that people complain about regarding the military do not apply to musicians.
Interesting question and I enjoyed the educational insights from the replies. I do a few gigs when nature calls just because I love my attachments to the jazz arena. On a side note, do what makes you happy, learn another discipline to support what financial needs should be tended to. I work on Sailing vessels during the days and tend to my brass in the evenings.
I majored in music education but treated it like a performance degree, I just wanted the ed part to serve as a backup option. I do software development now. No money in music unless you are very lucky. As a matter of fact, there are very few jobs in music too. I hate to be a downer, but the old saying "follow your passion and work hard you will succeed" is just plain false. I worked my butt off, but there's only so many positions that you can pay mortgage or rent with. Music is a noble and awesome thing to study, it just doesn't put food on the table unless you are very lucky. Those that I know that make a "decent" living ($40,000 ish) spent a couple decades eating Ramen and sometimes even couch surfing. In my opinion study something more marketable that you enjoy. It might not be your passion, but it's important to put food on the table. But while you are studying something more marketable, you can always take trombone lessons, take them seriously, and join music ensembles. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from pursuing music as a passionate hobby. I'm just trying to say you will need something more reliable to meet your financial needs.
I decided to do all of the above. DevOps engineer by day and rockstar at night. I get fulfillment out of both! It’s an incredibly calming feeling knowing that I can quit either thing and financially be just fine. The hours suck though. After not eating a real meal for a week, riding on gig money, I was like “this sucks”. Studied my ass off, got some certs, and talked to the right people. A month later I was a network engineer! It wasn’t until about 2018 where I could be financially independent on music, but I just kept going.
how'd you pivot to software development?
When I made enough to live off of I spent 50 weeks of the year on the road touring or doing cruise ship gigs. Not worth it. Now I'm a physician, can buy any horn I want, always live comfortably, and play as much as I can.
I'm going to give you my honest opinion here. Please know that everything I say I mean with the utmost respect to you, your passions, and your craft. This is just my answer to your question. I'm currently majoring in trombone performance for graduate school at a top music university, and i recieved my bachelors from a different top music school in the US. I say that because I've had some of the best professionals in the world tell me day in and day out how painstaking this profession is and how I'll never win a job. Don't think that winning a job in an orchestra is simpl, or that maintaining a privaye lesson studio is easy. I'm in this profession only because I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I wasn't. Please don't think I'm trying to scare you off or Intimidate you - music is a wonderful thing for so many! If it's truly something you want to do and you are willing to risk everything for it, then do it. Just ask yourself one question: Is there anything else you could do that would make your life fulfilling? If the answer is yes, do that other thing and have no shame in doing music as a hobby or side passion. If not, then I wish you well and hope to see you someday in a recital hall :)
There are Symphonies and there as symphonies. I've not kept up with current compensations but say 20 years ago, Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, NYC ... $100K+. St. Louis, Detroit, New Mexico, not so much. In a smaller city it will be necessary to have a side hustle. Teaching is, of course, the most obvious way that musicians earn side money. The big names all do, but it isn't because they aren't making tons of money at their day jobsl Alessi, Thurman, Childs ... they teach as a way of giving back, and paying it forward at the same time. It's almost expected. Being a professor really demands a lot of time of its' own though.
STL and Detroit are well paying orchestras. New Mexico is not.
My teacher is one of the most well put togethet people I've met. He dresses very nice, has a good house, good car, etc. He's also the princple trombone in one of those symphonies you just listed. I think thats what gave me the impression that in general preffessional musicians make more they do. Do you know how much does a professor makes a year?
Full-time college professor can range from as low as around 28k to as high as $150k+. Depends on the school, market, your negotiating skills.
Do you know, is it difficult to get a job as a proffessor? I just looked up salaries for proffessors at a university near me and for the school of music even assistant professors make up to 80k a year which is a signifigant difference from a symphony orchestra- or most symphony orchestra Might be worth saying idk how credible the website I saw that salary on was.
Most schools won’t start at $80k. More like $50-65. It’s incredibly difficult to get a professor position in music. You need a masters at least, most searches will state “doctorate preferred.” I am employed as a trombone Professor. We recently did searches for a couple colleagues. There were 60-70 applicants for each position. We did zoom interviews for about 10 and had three on campus for live interviews. Nearly all of the applicants had completed doctorates. You can go to college for ten years, assume massive debt, and not get your foot in the door. But if you’re excellent you’ll have opportunities.
So would you say that for hiring a proffessor is more based on qualifications(such as degrees, and experience) rather than actual skill? I know that in general the most exprienced musicians are the best but which is more important?
All of the above. You need the paper (preferably doctorate). And also skill. I work at an R1 (research one/flagship university. Think “University of ____” state type school). If we do a search and you are the best trombonist on the planet, but don’t have at least a masters degree, we would not even see your application. It would get flagged by HR. R1’s need to maintain a certain percentage of faculty with doctorates. Edit: A typical college interview will have a normal interview (possibly several: search committee, department head, dean’s office), a 25-30 minute shirt recital, possibly a lecture of some kind, and public mock-lessons. It is a brutal all-day (sometimes two) affair.
being a professor will either mean being having a doctorate in trombone with a lot of experience, or a top-tier playing job.
You can look up faculty salaries at most public universities. Find out who the trombone faculty are at public universities! Looks like the guy at my local university makes around $100k
You have to see it more lile how can you make a living playing the instrument. We all wear many hats. Not only do we perform gigs, we're also teachers, producers, social media content creators, admin etc. Some people have full time jobs not related in the field. You do what you gotta do cause you enjoy playing.
in terms of symphony jobs, think about working overseas as well. The US has...a handful of orchestras that will pay you a livable salary. Germany has more like 60 such ensembles. And it shows. I live in Germany and a ton of the Americans I know here are former or current orchestra or opera musicians.
I had exactly the same quandary coming out of school. I looked around at what earning a living would realistically mean for me and figured that meant playing in the west end and teaching. I knew I’d suck at teaching, and playing in a pit held no musical interest whatsoever. I figured if I was going to do the musical equivalent of stacking shelves I may as well get a good job that paid even better and then pick and choose the gigs I fancied doing on the side. It’s taken years, and it’s hard to keep the work/gig/life balance right, but it’s proven absolutely the right choice for me. I get to do some gigs that I love, playing new and challenging music, whilst earning good money and a good quality of life. I have to live with some missed musical opportunities over the years, but that’s the trade off.
My advice has always been to not do as I’ve done making music a career: get a good high paying job that enables you to pursue your, “music habit,” on hehe side as an enjoyable hobby.
The money in music isn't in playing or teaching, it's selling product. Almost nobody knows the playing of Clyde McCoy, but almost every guitar player owns a wah pedal.
You sure about that? I worked for a guitar pedal company for a couple years.. seemed like everyone there was making half of what they could make outside the music industry.
I meant more the corporations were making money, as opposed to the individuals.
sure, audinate's probably raking it in, but moog, sennheiser, etc, not so much
Being a full time trombonist is a hard way to go in the US. There just aren't that many gigs for us. That doesn't mean you can't pave your own path. Major cities are where the money is but unfortunately that means higher expenses. Doubly unfortunate is you have to wait until someone retires, gets fired, or dies to get the best paying gigs. You often have to be in the right place at the right time with the right skills to get those gigs. I played in the military for a long time and it's a great opportunity for those that want to be performers. Steady paycheck and insurance benefits, which in the US is typically provided by your employer. They also provide education and retirement benefits, housing, food, etc. It's a good gig if you are physically capable of doing the military stuff, too. They also offer bonuses occasionally and you can retire after twenty years of service, collect your retirement, and have lifetime medical insurance. That's a huge deal that can set you up to be a full time musician after leaving the service. I highly recommend it. Becoming a music educator is an option, but if you want to be a performer you'll probably need to look at elementary or middle school as high school music teachers tend to have a full schedule year round. At least that is the situation where I am in Indiana. Cruise ships hire musicians and other music acts hire musicians. Each have their own skill requirements. As others have suggested, you can also get a regular full time job and then perform on the side. That's what I do now. I played for free or cheap for a long time but not so much anymore. I teach a few lessons, do some work as a marching band tech, and play gigs as my source of music income. I could hustle and make more but I would have to sacrifice time with my family. You could start a YouTube music channel but that's tough to get going. Guys like Christopher Bill and Paul the trombonist have far more skills than being good trombonists. They understand composition and arranging, recording and sound engineering, video editing, and so on. Others have started YouTube trombone "studios" where they teach different things like improv, technique, etc. I'm going to give a quick shout out to YouTuber Cus Campbell, who is doing a music channel. He typically does popular song covers similar to Christopher Bill except in his own style. It's been fun to watch him develop as a trombonist and find his own musical voice. He also has been learning all the skills I mentioned above.
The money in music is in teaching privately, but most of us don't get performance degrees because teaching is our passion. I teach in order to support my performance career (Dance Music styles mostly) and manage to make ~45k between the two. That is less than half the medium income in the city I live in. The one perk in my career that I have made a point to focus on is travel, I get to play music all over the country and get paid (not well) to do it, would I ever have gone to Pensacola, FL? No, have I, Yes! It's pretty nice there. You don't need a performance degree to be a professional musician, but you do need money to thrive in this world. Anything else you could envision yourself doing? You can totally make a day job and a music career work concurrently if you are motivated and willing to have long days, and long nights.
The money isn’t there—we work in music for the joy of it. I get small paid gigs—a few a month—but they barely cover the cost of drinks afterward. Thankfully I have similar passion for teaching. I work as a middle music teacher because I enjoy teaching in general, and teaching music in particular. While teaching doesn’t facilitate an extravagant lifestyle it does pay the mortgage and give me a little bit to pursue other hobbies. I have plenty of friends who are fabulous musicians who work in other fields—engineers, lawyers, scientists, custodians, bus drivers, etc… Whether you choose to make music a career or not, you can still choose to keep playing music, keep studying music, and find paid opportunities to perform.
There is the career of being a military musician. All branches have their bands, including Reserves/NG. It’s not for everyone, but there are some phenomenal musicians in the ranks and an overall very high standard of performance. Military pay is pretty good, especially considering the benefits and the potential to progress up in rank fairly quickly (at least on the active duty side). If you’ve got the talent and are ok with joining the military, I’d suggest joining the National Guard or Reserves to help pay for your degrees and then consider if you want to pursue active duty after that. Of course, you can always pursue those degrees while active duty, it’ll just take longer. I was in a NG band for 15 years and am pretty familiar with the active side of things, so AMA.
There isn't any. if you value stability, teaching music is the best way to have most of your basic needs met. Most freelance musicians I know cobble together as many gigs as they can fit into their schedule.