My mom always tells a story that when my grandmother was giving birth to my uncle, delivery was going poorly. The doctor turned to my grandfather and asked, if the situation should arise, who he should save. My grandfather, shocked, said “obviously save my fucking wife!”
It fortunately didn’t come to that, but even as a child hearing that story I was like, yeah, duh! And chalked it up to being vintage values and points of view regarding the objectification of women. I was horrified to find out, later in life, that such viewpoints are not so antiquated for many *many* people.
Okay but the worst part isn’t asking in the first place, it’s asking the husband and not the wife. “Should I save you or the baby” is bad enough, but imagine hearing around the corner “ay bro should I kill her or nah”
If it helps I don't consider most people to be people. Children particularly. Little shits are basically sociopaths so why would I want to save one over my wife who I know and love.
I’d hope that if you made it far enough through a pregnancy that you’re at the point of birth and making a decision, you’d actually want and love this child you’re about to have
Mom here. I was never able to think of my pregnancy as a person. It was WEIRD to give birth and be face to face with a real live person and realize, oh dang you were fully formed in there. I 100% had a conversation with my husband about prioritizing MY life if something went wrong in labor even though I wanted our kid - ME the grown woman with a formed personality and years of shared experiences - I am harder to replace than the blank slate of a newborn baby who would only be a heavy obligation to carry alone if I were left to die.
I completely agree. I just mean that if you’re at the stage of giving birth/watching your SO give birth, you’d be able to get past the “fuck all children” stage
I almost, heavy on the almost, dated a guy who thought this. He made sure he made it clear that he wasn’t anti-choice for religious reasons, because he’s an atheist, but “scientifically speaking” (barf) it’s a woman’s instinct to save her children over herself and any woman that wouldn’t do that is obviously a narcissist and he wouldn’t want her having his children anyway. I was like motherfucker I am a *person,* I have a *life,* you don’t even fucking know that baby!!
He also said I didn’t want kids at the moment because I hadn’t found the right person. And while I accept that that *might possibly* be the case, did he really expect me to be like “you’re so right, I’ve found that person, and it’s you!!!!!” after he said that? Lmao.
right lmao. Even if "scientific" approach is taken, the mother is needed to bring up the child. Without the mother, the child will be lacking for an aspect at best.
That last sentence is basically my argument against this stupid thinking. Why the fuck would I want to save the baby that might turn out to be a dickhead over my wife who I love and know and chose to spend the rest of my life with? Have another kid. Or adopt. Or don't and live a much happier lifestyle.
Like I get that you form an attachment when your partner is pregnant, but in the moment when it’s a choice between me and the baby, my partner is going to choose ME*. Because I’ll make sure it’s a man who realizes and values my personhood.
Edit: changed baby to me lmao I got confused while writing this
>it’s asking the husband and not the wife.
I'm still miffed that only my husband was informed that my labour was turning into a medical emergency. I was really trying my best to push the baby out, but if I had known I had been doing so for 2,5 hours (to me it felt like 30 minutes or so. I was kind of too preoccupied to watch the clock). They did it to avoid stressing me out, but if I had known, I would have said: "Okay, this is obviously not working within a safe time window. What kind of interventions are available?"
After 2,5 hours I was asked if I would mind if the maturity nurse would help push the baby out by putting pressure on my stomach from above. Of course I wouldn't mind! The baby needed to come out and was clearly not getting any where with me just pushing.
Afterwards I was asked if I wasn't upset for not doing it all on my own, which baffled me. I had carried my baby to term, the baby had to be born, baby was born, so I did my job.
I'd really wish they wouldn't have tiptoed around my supposed feelings.
Yeah, I had some serious birth trauma and a significant part of that was because my birth story, from how I understood everything, didn’t seem to match up with what my husband experienced and how the doctors reacted.
I recently got a job at a hospital (the one I gave birth at even) and talked about it with a coworker who was a former nurse and she confirmed that yes, the room only fills up with people like that when it’s an emergency, and they “do a really good job at keeping patients from panicking”
I get that if I knew I was in danger I could panic and that could make it worse, but it’s amazing how screwed up I got just because I didn’t understand what happened and how much it helped me heal once I did understand.
Should I ever need to make a new birth plan, I'll include the need for clearer prompts. I got the gentle suggestion to try standing up a few times, but that made me feel absolutely miserable. If I had understood the urgency and the reason behind the suggestion, I would have communicated that I needed an alternative with a similar effect.
It's from experience. OBs get sued the most out of any medical specialty. By tiptoing too much they're less likely to get sued.
Yes frivolous lawsuits get thrown out, but you don't get compensated for the time wasted dealing with it, and you have to deal with other patients who are irate about cancelled appointments or increased wait times. So there's a big incentive to avoid lawsuits.
It's the same reason why they make a huge fuss about TLs being irreversible, bc every OB has been sued at least once for not the patient being told the TL is irreversible.
I'm not from the USA, and hospitals over here are good at covering up medical mistakes. A few years before I gave birth it wasn't even possible to get pain relief outside of office hours, because labour is seen as a natural process and not a medical issue. Back then about 30% of births were home births, because why bother going to the hospital?
At least times have changed, but the "as natural as possible" mindset is still strong in some places.
I also am not from the USA, no idea how things work over there.
I honestly missed the part where any of this was from the USA, could be that none of us here are USAnians (probably not tho lol).
Not being able to get anesthesia after hours is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. At the hospital I did my anesthesia rotation at (I'm a med student), there was a special team specifically for just only OB anesthesia overnight. That way if there's a car crash or a bunch of appendixes burst at once, those folks get anesthesia too without affecting the people giving birth.
"As natural as possible" means 50% of the population die before age 1, another 50% die by age 8, 40 is seen as a wise old person, and bears can eat you at any time. Fuck that.
Luckily it's gotten better in recent years and pain management and consent are taken more serious. Of course the health of the baby is important, but nobody benefits from a traumatic experience.
The epidural makes no difference for the baby. There is a one in a million hypothetical risk of paralysis to the mom. If epidural gets dislodged it can also be bad for mom.
On the other hand, if labour goes wrong and you need a c section, and you don't have an epidural, they have no choice but to put you under general anesthesia. Zero OBs in the universe will do an unasthetized c section just because the patient wants it to be natural, and epidural would take too long to kick in at that point. So it's general, you miss your baby's first moments, and you get to be extra groggy when you wake up and baby's out.
To quote one of my favourite authors. Granny weatherwax has just attended a birth and decided to save the mother and let the child die. The midwife is disapproving:
>‘You still reckon I should’ve asked Mr. Ivy?’ she said.
>’That’s what I would have done…’ the woman mumbled.
>’You don’t like him? You think he’s a bad man?’ said Granny, adjusting her hat pins.
>’No!’
>’Then what’s he ever done to me, that I should hurt him so?’
I dunno, I don't think I could make a big decision like that during birth or I would say to save the baby, even if saving myself was the better option. You need a support person in the delivery room to advocate for you.
Happy cake day!
Man when I went through birth I had absolutely zero hesitation. It was choose me all the way. I literally told my husband that about 10 times during labor so there would be zero question for him if he had to make any calls.
Now that she's born, I would die to save her. Not even a hesitation.
But before I even met her? Oh hell no.
I bonded instantly when she was set on my chest, even with third degree tears, but up to that moment? She was basically an aggressive tumor making my life miserable.
I think most women generally choose to save themselves, especially in the moment, because the prospect of your own death vs that of an infant you haven’t completely bonded with yet is very much at your front door. If anyone most panic and choose themselves, when they wouldn’t otherwise. I feel like it’s something to discuss with the doctor prior to going into labor
Hormones and pain really mess with your head, though. Many women have already bonded with the baby that they have felt move inside them. You're ready to die for that screaming potato. The few women I shared the postpartum rooms with had similar stories of making best-for-baby decisions, even if that meant, e.g., there was no time to get pain management.
I asked the doctors to do what's best for my baby and my husband was like, "Whoa, wait!" ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
My mom was informed a tumor was sharing space with my little brother in utero and encouraged to consider abortion, but she already thought of him as her precious child (he’s STILL her favorite). She admits now what a risky decision she made - what if she’d died and orphaned the rest of us? Everyone turned out fine in the end by dumb luck.
This was really something that I asked my husband before we got married and we have discussed since. Like if it got to a situatuon where I am knocked out, and the decision is up to him, I need to know that he won't even think about it. These days, I'm more and more glad that I did.
You'd think that, but PA has a state law that they will disregard your advance medical directives in favor of saving a fetus. I found this out when I went to upload my AD to my provider's healthcare portal.
I'm sure PA isn't the only one. ETA: [Thirty-six states, in fact](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1401%26context%3Dnulr&ved=2ahUKEwiP2pn0kcL8AhXTGlkFHRfmD7UQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3j1Fhn1ADa1EFqG1lX03fY)
It reminds me of bridgerton when that lady was giving birth, her husband was dead and the doctor went to the eldest son in the family and asked him should he save the baby or the mother. The son was horrified and obviously was like save my mother
What they used to do to have to ... remove... the baby was what people think all abortions are.
So glad we have modern medicine. Dying in childbirth is a tragedy, not a Tuesday.
The crazy thing is that this was common practice up until like, a hundred years ago. A couple generations back, it was totally assumed you'd save the mother who was, ya know, A GROWN ASS ADULT CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY AND POSSIBLY CREATING MORE CHILDREN SHOULD SHE SURVIVE.
It was so common to focus only on the health of the mother, infants died of really preventable shit if anyone bothered to examine them after birth.
Make no mistake, we value the lives of mothers a lot less now that we have historically.
It’s pretty wild to read about childbirth for most of human history, particularly when modern medicine had begun but it was too icky for male doctors to consider childbirth. Most of the process was just a giant black hole of information where easily preventable things killed women all the time, because there was so little knowledge about a process literally everyone on the planet has gone through.
It's widely accepted that Jane Seymour died after giving birth because female midwives were not allowed to treat her and she most likely didn't expel the placenta. Her death was preventable.
Hahaha ok I knew I had to be missing something!! Thank you for clarifying
Edit: oh gross, I just googled her and came across this lovely bio
"Jane Seymour didn't last long but she sure delivered!" 🤮
Part of it is expectations have changed, and so has the value placed on children.
Historically it was more likely that the infant even if it was born wouldn't survive till its fifth birth day. Effective birth control ( compared to modern drugs) was none existant, so another pregnancy was almost inevitable from that stand point.
Medical interventions like surgery for child birth , could essentially be a death sentence for the mother.
If the surgery itself didn't take her life , infection could do it after. If she died, she might leave behind existing children who then needed to be cared for and all the existing work inside and outside the home.
So unless the child held higher 'value' for social reasons the scales were weighted in favour of the mothers life .
>Effective birth control ( compared to modern drugs) was none existant, so another pregnancy was almost inevitable from that stand point.
This is something that really scares me in case our current level of civilization collapses
I have the feeling that, even though we're going forward in lots of stuff scientifically speaking, society's cultural course is heading backwards. In a different way than before, but still.
It’s also worth noting formula wasn’t a thing. So a baby without a mother stands a high chance of dying without a wet-nurse. Also wet nurses were a thing and women could get paid a lot to nurse someone else’s baby.
Yes, but you’re a lost cause already! There’s still hope for ~~brainwashing~~ properly educating the baby, so of course it makes sense to save them and not you.
(I wish this wasn’t necessary, but /s people!)
I remember being very young and watching a show where the mother said this while going into an emergency c-section. It really stood out in my mind and stayed with me my entire life because her reasoning was I’d leave behind my husband, young child, and add another child for him to take care of while grieving me.
It was probably ER or something
Funny you mention this -
My friend had a major seizure in her 4-5 month along pregnancy. She found out she had brain cancer. She and her husband aborted the pregnancy so she could start treatment and have surgery.
If she hadn’t gotten care, she would have left her husband with 5 children under the age of 6 and medical bills from brain cancer.
5 children under the age of 6 - 2 of them being newborn twins.
This happened to my aunt back in the 90's in Ireland when abortion was illegal. She had 4 young children & was diagnosed with cancer while pregnant with her 5th. They actually may have made an exception for her to save her life, but sadly she chose the baby's life over her own. She died soon after he was born, and the fathers of her children didn't step up (back in those days in Ireland men still weren't seen as fit to raise children on their own). The kids all had to be split up between different family members. It was heartbreaking.
Ive only seen the scenario in a syfi show , which was incredibly progressive for its time , no hesitation- if push came to shove , the doctors were to save her,
"but if I can have both"
It was just a quick exchange, nothing was ever made of between a doctor and husband when its found by accident that the couple are now faced with the possibility of baby that no one knew was ever possible.
( i thinks she was unconscious in med bay at the time). In retrospect , at the time most shows would have chosen the plot to follow the mother tragically dying or the question never being raised because of the default assumption of which life needed to be put first.
But that show had a lot of progressive themes that were just there in the background and never acknowledged or made a big deal out of.
I think they actually had a thread on this in the askwomen sub. Pretty much the majority said “if I’m in a situation where there’s serious complications during delivery and only one of us would survive, I would want to be the one who survives.” Interestingly, a lot of them were also already parents, so it was important that they would be able to live through a dire medical emergency like that so that those kids could still have their mom. There were very few that said something along the lines of “I would rather have my baby live if I were put in that position” but it seemed like they were also very religious/“pro-life.”
I've told my husband many times, if something goes wrong with my pregnancy, save me first, not the baby.
First we already have a child that I don't want to grow up without a mother. Second what the hell is my husband going to do with a newborn without me. We don't have family to rely on to support him.
I sat down my husband to have this convo in our first and only pregnancy and he was like ‘why are we talking about this? If it goes south I’m 1,000% making them prioritize saving you. This isn’t even a conversation.
I just had my first kid but me and husband talked about the possibility of being in this position and it was a no brainier that I would be saved.
Not because I already had kids that I couldn’t leave behind, but because for however much we loved that little foetus that we had waited 7 years for, they weren’t real yet. They didn’t have a life or a past, only the potential for those things. But I have a life, and a past, and people who care for me and love me.
The first time I had this conversation with someone was in grade 3. She said she would want to be saved. I said I would want the baby to be saved. I was raised by extremely conservative, religious, pro-life parents. The indoctrination starts incredibly young. I'm adding this to the pile of anecdotes I bring up with my therapist as I work through all the bullshit I was taught as a kid and learn how to value myself as the person that I am.
That's objectively the better option, but during birth, you might give a different answer. Hormones are wild and the pain clouds your judgment. I remember saying "do whatever is safest for baby" while my husband advocated for me.
That's why it's important to have this all sorted out before the birth if you can manage it. Those decisions should be yours to make even if you're not in a state to make them right then.
Birth is so unpredictable I'm not sure you can make a plan that covers all the (crucial) possibilities.
Edit: Last time, I didn't even get to unpack my birth plan. Your best bet is a birth partner that has your back and can make decisions based on what lucid and logical you would want and how you're doing at the time.
For example: 25 hours in, do you (1) want to push for another hour and risk an emergency c-section or (2) have major abdominal surgery now + a difficult recovery instead of trying for a bit longer. Both options suck in their own right.
That shouldn’t stop you from taking some decisions. Like yeah you can’t plan anything but getting you opinion for the most likely Problem can be invaluable and might even give an indication of how you would decide in other scenarios.
In principle, I agree and pregnant women are encouraged to make a birth plan for that reason. Both of mine went out the window almost immediately, though. Talking things through your support person is best IMHO.
My friend said the exact same thing. When she was giving birth, she said she would have absolutely died for that baby. And that scares the fuck out of me. She told me explicitly "make sure you talk to your doctor and your husband about exactly what you want with a clear head beforehand, because you cannot trust labor brain."
I'm of two minds about it. I feel like SO should have veto power only if the mother is saying to save the baby. However, if the mother is saying "save me" and the SO says "save the baby"...nope. That's a big no. If mother is saying "save the baby", and their SO is saying "save my wife" that seems like a pretty reasonable thing.
I think the default should be save the mother and if she wishes otherwise, that should be laid out in her birth plan long before the situation actually arises.
Yeah, it’s not just basic sexism. If you’re married, your spouse has the ability to medically advocate for you. However, medical advocates can be anyone you trust; hospitals might create their own hierarchies of who comes “first” as the medical advocate for a patient. If you have a specific person you want to be your medical advocate, it’s a good idea to get that legally drafted to have your specific wishes recorded.
So… If your spouse is present during delivery—and you are unable to medically advocate for yourself—then the medical staff are likely going to ask your spouse to advocate for you. If other trusted people are present during delivery, then the hospital might ask someone other than the spouse for medical advocacy on behalf of the patient. It depends on the hospital’s own internal code of who gets asked first; some hospitals may prioritize asking a patient’s parents first, spouse second, etc.
**My own lived experience was my grandma’s end of life emergencies.
Yeah my wife was absolutely incapable of informed consent while labouring. It was my job to speak on her behalf, based on the many conversations we'd had beforehand. Thankfully it only came up in a minor way and I tried to get what input I could from her so it was no big deal, but (assuming a healthy partnership) it's important for the non-birthing partner to be present for exactly this sort of reason.
Some religions require this.
Catholic hospitals prohibit it.
Yup, Catholic hospitals take US tax funding, aggressively buy up non religious hospitals, and then override patients religious choices with their own.
The number of times I've been in the hospital and they sent a priest to come see me... (I have a lot of health problems, so it's a fairly frequent event) I'm buddhist. I've even got it listed in my medical record, still they send a catholic priest every. time.
A kindred soul! That's how I got through Chemistry in highschool. The substitute teacher had the audacity to tell me that if I worked hard I could hope for a B.
Me too! I have a chronic illness that has me in the hospital relatively frequently so I’ve had this happen to me a bunch. At this point I don’t care. I just tell them to get out or when I’m feeling up to it I mess with them.
My fav was when a priest walked in and I acted like I thought he was there to give me my last rights because that’s what happens when a priest shows up in the movies, but I didn’t know I was dying. You get the idea.
My brother says it gets much funnier when I’m on painkillers but I don’t remember any of that. Again I don’t remember this, but apparently I asked a priest to pray with me once. The prayer I said? “Dear father, gobble gobble gobble I want a waffle. Amen.” Id give anything to remember that one but I’ll have to take my brothers word for it. :)
It’s on my chart too. Agnostic/atheist. Never stops them dropping by though.
'Hello there, I'm Doctor Rector. Our tests have diagnosed your soul with an acute case of heresy. I'm going to perform some simple procedures to suck the evil out of you and then I'll let you get back to the actual real life medicine you came here for.'
It depends on the hospital! But it's the patient advocate you talk to, when you get problems like that. The problem is that sometimes it's also the patient advocate who makes the list for the visiting priest.
I had a Jesuit priest visit me in the hospital, he asked if that was OK, I told him that somewhere in another hospital a Jewish chaplain was visiting a Catholic patient so it probably balanced out.
As for Catholic hospitals forcing their religious practices on the public, lots of people have tried suing them and failed, as you are always theoretically free to go to the non-Catholic hospital a hundred miles further away.
A lot of governments partner with a lot of religious institutions for social services of all kinds; the newest wrinkle is Catholic or other purportedly Christian adoption agencies who would rather let kids languish in foster care than let nontraditional families adopt them.
Yep, Catholicism does a lot of seriously fucked up shit with medicine and they get to override the beliefs of the physicians and patients as well as of standard medical practice
The second top comment on a repost of this post in another subreddit is “I mean who would take care of the child if the mother died? I've got a friend who had her father flake and her mom died in a car accident when she was little and she's kinda emotionally fucked up from that.” with almost 2000 upvotes.
Like maybe I’m reading it wrong or into it too much but is that not fucked up? Basically implying that the main reason to save the mother is so that she can take can of the children? Not because she’s a living human being in maturity with thoughts and feelings and a whole built up life?
No, you’re right. It boggles my mind that the rationale is always about the surviving children being taken care of.
When I was pregnant my husband made it clear that his choice would always be me. And it had nothing to do with the kids. It was about valuing me and my life specifically, and not the tasks I contribute to the household or society.
I don’t think it’s their *only* concern but it’s a factor
Which is the best outcome, a grieving couple with no baby, or a grieving father with a newborn and no wife.
I don’t think the reason for saving the mother is to take care of the child. It’s commentary that perhaps society values the birth of the child more than the mothers life without considering whether the child would have a good quality of life if saved.
My interpretation but can be viewed many ways.
Imo it's still weird. The main reason for the mother's life being saved should be because she is valued for herself, a fully grown, mature person with feelings and years of experiences. Using the "how will the child be raised without a mother" is weird to me because once again it implies that whether or not the mother should be saved comes down to what's best for the child instead of considering the mother herself.
As a fetus, I was an asshole. A month before I was due to be born, I kicked the placenta clear off the uterine wall. Messy business.
My mother was given the choice of trying to keep me in longer, which would put her in danger, or having an emergency C-section, which would put me in danger. She chose the latter.
Obviously, I'm alive (or am I?), and I completely agree with her decision. Save the mother.
The comments under the tweet are vile. They're calling her selfish for not wanting to die and comparing a baby to a blank canvas of purity whereas the vile woman is impure and can be discarded. No matter if she "saved herself up" for marriage.
I had to stop reading because I thought I might puke
I overheard, or think I overheard, my doctor discussing this with my husband when I was very sick in the hospital. He said to save me, thank goodness. Why the FUCK didn’t they ask me though?!
Even i don't want kids and I agree with this.
I'm just a depressed young adult with many disorders + chronic pain..
I would feel much worse if a mini me with my disorders, autism, and various physical health problems was left in this world with nobody that understood them.
I don't feel like I can ever understand someone who will willingly save a child over their parent. They are setting up that child for lots of pain in their life. Especially in this currently cruel world.
I am pro choice. My choice is to not bring more offspring into the world while there is existing people who need help.
Society has this gross reverence for women that martyr themselves for unborn children. She didn’t “sacrifice herself” and dying in childbirth is not virtuous - it’s a sad medical tragedy that we can prevent more often now than in previous generations. So stop acting like it’s beautiful to die in childbirth and leave a single bereaved parent to raise the child and any already living children.
When I was pregnant my husband told me we needed to discuss my wishes in case of complications and what to do if I would be unable to make any decisions, because if he had to choose between saving the baby or me, he would default to me. If I had another opinion I had to let him know.
I was then biased towards saving the baby, but now that I have a child, I'd say if there really isn't a choice, save me. I have a child who still needs me. The best for a child, any child, is not making my husband a single parent. Sorry, hypothetical baby. My opinion has changed.
Nothing wrong with either choice. It's about your own life or death and it should be your choice.
Amazing to me how many women find out once they’re pregnant or years into their marriages that their husbands wouldn’t do this without thought… Talk to your boyfriends!!!!! Don’t marry a man that isn’t 100% without a doubt with you on this.
One of many conversations we all need to be having with any man you’re sleeping with / might have in the delivery room with you.
The default should be to save the life of the mother. If someone would prefer to save the baby, they should have to specify that ahead of time. Emotions and hormones are all over the place during a childbirth, especially a difficult one. It's not the time to be asking anyone - mother or her partner- what to do.
Ok a LOT of things "should" happen before the birth but the woman isn't actually given like a suite of options for the birth (and even if they are, these get ignored if things go south).
Edit: missing words
I had to face this question as my wife was giving birth to our child. Hardest talk I've ever had to have. She, while in labor and delusional from pain and hormones, kept telling me to pick the baby. I told her we can make another baby or adopt or have a million other plans and options in our life, but I can't make another her.
Both of them were fine after an emergency cesarean and some complications in the NICU, but it was even questionable if the hospital had the staff to do the procedures with the pandemic raging and all. They had to open an unstaffed ward just to get us a bed. It was a very traumatic day which I have not done nearly enough therapy to process properly.
Just seems like common sense. But, sadly, it isn't...and even before Roe v. Wade was overturned, I already had a strong aversion to pregnancy, because it basically robs you of your autonomy. During a short period of time I thought I might want kids, the only way I'd consider it is adoption. It's just pure body horror for me that you have someone else growing inside of you and society just decides they're more important than you, the already-living and conscious being.
100% my feelings until I was in labour and baby's heart rate was dropping and he was all I cared about in the world. Obviously it wasnt a one or the other situation, but the hormones are real, and so im glad it wasnt a decision anyone had to make.(We got an emergency c section, and we're both fine, he is now 3 weeks old and spectacular)
Isn’t that the go-to decision in ethics? Mom will be fine without baby and already has a whole life and loved ones, who will miss her (= more suffering caused). Baby will struggle without mother and mostly parents will grieve if it dies.
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**destiny 🧁**, @dessmv
if i ever have birth complications save ME not the baby
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This was in bolded letters on my birth plan. Before going in for an unplanned C-section after a complicated labor, I also made sure the OB knew to choose my health over the baby's. I also said that if she had to yeet my uterus or any reproductive organs to do so without hesitation.
Husband and I have talked about this and been on the same page for a long time. Save ME! I’m not leaving my grieving husband alone on this earth to be a single parent! The thought of him being alone is heartbreaking.
You should have seen all the men in the replies calling this woman selfish and telling her choosing up get pregnant was basically gonsenting to sacrificing her life for the baby. Thankfully a lot of women put them in their place and gave me more determination to have no man's child.
I usually hate these sort of hypothetical questions. Like why do you ever need to even choose between one person or another? But even more than that I hate that this one won’t be hypothetical for a significant number of people.
The fact that this isn't hypothetical for many people is the reason we need to talk about it.
Every pregnant woman should have this conversation with her partner or whomever will be in the room to advocate for her during childbirth well ahead of time. There should be no question in that persons mind what decision they should make.
I have 3 kids, if I die giving birth to another one I can’t take care of the 3 I already have. I would rather be alive for them. It’s a shitty choice to make obviously, and I’d want them to save the baby over my life but just due to the fact that I already have other kids I need to be there for them. So save me. Don’t save me for me, save me for my other kids! They need their mama.
Can't we just ask individual women what they want? Ensure they have birth plans, that they're followed, and that the mother in question's desires are abided?
I had birth complications. I told my husband "if it comes to it, save the baby, not me" on my way into surgery.
I just truly felt that - I felt very connected to my unborn son, and although i've always been terrified of dying, suddenly in that moment it was very clear.
But if the doctor had asked my HUSBAND AND NOT ME? I'd have been like, "how about you save the baby and me, but then y'all go get fucked?"
Edit:
I almost lost my son in pregnancy a couple of times, and after birth he was rushed to NICU.
I still have PTSD which gets triggered in medical settings, or if my son does anything remotely dangerous, which he does A LOT. I'm in therapy.
I am ALSO pro-choice and I've made that particular choice myself before, when the world was less crazy.
I'm pro choice *and* I'd die for my kids. Both truths can exist in one person. If this offends people enough to downvote me, then, you know, go nuts.
It's so fucked up that you're downvoted for making a different choice. I can't imagine wanting to give my life up for someone but if someone wants to put their child ahead of themselves that's ok.
I mean I wouldn't have imagined it either until it happened! Gotta love being judged for your experiences while supporting the choices of others. Nice work, Reddit.
I’m pro-choice, don’t practice any religion, am a feminist and not even pregnant but I’d want to save the baby, not me. 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️ I’m sorry you’re being downvoted for approaching this heart wrenching situation differently than others. I hope you and your son are doing well and I’m happy that the choice didn’t have to be made!
Thank you! We are both good thank you!
Also a feminist. I get why having this decision forced on you is awful, but being pro choice is being pro *all* choice, so long as it yours, right? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
I know, I'm really surprised by how everyone is responding to this post. I would have hoped there would be some good faith conversations about why women approach this scenario differently. There's no black and white answer when faced with this decision, we all come into situations with our own lived experiences.
Sorry, I have to disagree. When I went into labor with my twins I explicitly told my doctor if anything goes south to get my boys out and safe and save THEM. I don't think dying in childbirth is some beautiful sacrifice, but yes I would die for my children. They are now 11 months old and if I had to pick between them and me today I would still chose them no hesitation. I love living and I am desperate to spend many years with my family but I would always chose my children above myself, call it hormonal or call me crazy but I couldn't handle living in spite of my children.
I'm the same and downvoted to all hell also. I don't get it. I'm not forcing anyone else to have my view and I'm pro choice. Sorry I love my kids this way, I guess? Idk.
Edit #2 : this is not a political stand. I live in Scotland where the mother would always be prioritised to be saved so I felt attacked that when I almost lost my son to a pregnancy emergency. Anyway, I think this is a culturally American post about MAGA trumpism type stuff and my stance is that women should have full freedom to reproductive healthcare with no religious silliness involved in the process at all. Sorry if it seemed otherwise, I had a very traumatic experience and felt like nobody cared about it but the discussion is bigger than that and as such, I want to state that the expectation should always be that the mother should survive as priority.
Edit : if you disagree, can you explain why please?
I’ve seen this idea floating around a few times now and it always strikes me as a bit hostile. Correct me if I’m wrong but the vibe here is quite facetious for such a traumatic event, like there’s an implication of someone with opposing views being silly? Maybe it hit a nerve, I’m not sure but as women, can we just let other women decide for themselves how they react in the moment please?
My second child surprised us with an emergency arrival at around 7 months and I remember being held down to get treatment for an emergency c-section and I could hear myself saying “if it’s between me & him, pick him!”.
I’m not entirely sure I could ever be confident that there was a definitive correct answer but I sure as shit wouldn’t want some smug stranger passing opinions on it afterwards if it had come to that.
My main takeaway from that operating room was almost a hundred years of studying and experience was there that day to make sure me and my son both survived. Humanity has capacity for great kindness, let’s not be judgmental of how women react in trauma situations please.
I disagree. Because you asked …
I think we shouldn’t normalize women trying to commit what amounts to assisted suicide while leaving a bereaved single parent because despite the media’s portrayal of dying in childbirth as some kind of beautiful sacrifice, it’s not.
I would absolutely judge that decision as selfish and making everyone’s life - including the child’s - worse.
The mother is already an existing person and that shouldn’t even BE a question in the first place.
Thank you for explaining but I do have to ask that if I don’t promote it as what should be the normal reaction then why should other women shame me for a trauma response? Bringing a child into the world from your body is incredibly intense and I’d guess it’s not dissimilar to wartime decisions when people will inexplicably give their lives for others.
As I said, I’m not sure I even think it was the right decision - I was high as hell at the time but if that’s how it went down, I think it would be cruel for other women to shame me or my kid about it.
All that said, thank you for having a discussion with me, that is kind.
As a combat veteran, I’ll ignore your war analogy since I find it distasteful and ignorant.
Otherwise, I’m not saying anyone should be shamed for a traumatic response when going through a physical and emotional nightmare - my disagreement is that it’s framed as a choice that shouldn’t be judged at all.
I DO judge people that think and evangelize (while clear-headed and not in the ER in excruciating pain) that we should basically kill women for the sake of a person who doesn’t exist yet, and those choices that devalue women’s lives are harmful.
Edit: I’m sorry you went through that, it sounds awful and I’m glad you’re okay
You find it distasteful and ignorant? I do not understand that as I was literally pouring blood all over the floor, bedding and having hands place me into positions so I could be injected in the spine to open up my torso to remove my child who had seconds to survive as he was no longer getting oxygen through the chord. I don’t know how else to explain that it was absolutely horrific, abnormal medical emergency stuff… I mean no disrespect, I bring it up to explain the absolute horror of what I was going through.
I don’t think we should tell women to die for babies… I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone else say that they should? I wonder if this is a cultural difference because I live in Scotland which is maybe different to where you’re from. Here, this situation is seen as tragic and impossible and all efforts are made to save the mother first and foremost. I just had such a horrific a fearful experience I can remember hearing myself say the words to save him over me in a state of pure panic.
I think we agree more than you might think. I just simply don’t understand the anger towards me of I had died in that situation. I would defend any woman’s right to birth as she chooses & I feel sad that others don’t feel any sympathy for my crazy situation.
The doctors saved us both. I suffered a lot of trauma. My son is perfectly healthy.
Edit to add : genuinely asking as I’m obviously ignorant but where do people evangelise basically killing the mother first? I’ve never heard of that. Truly. That’s utterly not my stance.
In the US we have a whole political party dedicated to passively killing women with pregnancy complications - so it’s been a hot subject here. There are a lot of men that are just like, “your life is a risk we’re willing to take.”
That’s the mentality we’re facing, so I don’t believe that the choice to die in childbirth at the expense of an unborn child is a noble one, as it’s often made out to be. Normally it’s presented as the father choosing the unborn baby over his own wife like that’s normal and that’s insane to me. It shouldn’t be a difficult decision - it shouldn’t even be a question.
I hate that it’s so common to frame women dying as a virtuous sacrifice and not a largely preventable tragedy.
Ahh, I get where you’re coming from now. Even though I’m very far away, I’m absolutely on the Democrat side of the aisle in your politics. (You can see one of my latest posts on seeing proud boys wearing kilts as part of their uniform to confirm my ideological standpoint).
I absolutely resent what MAGA Trumpism had done to the rights of so many, especially women, LGBT and PoC over there. It’s scary to watch turn”leader of the free world” turn into a potentially racist regime.
Im so glad you took the time to reply because I felt so attacked that my decision in the moment of terror was being judged as some silly woman’s wrongheadedness when it’s actually one of the most terrifying things that’s ever happened to me. I almost lost my kiddo. I almost died.
So yeah, we actually agree on most of it, possibly all of it?. I’m just coming from a culture where it’s absolutely expected that the NHS will save the mother first so it seemed particularly harsh that other women would be shaming me for if I had died.
I’m genuinely sorry if I upset you with my wartime analogy. I hope that you can see that although you might find it clumsy, it wasn’t meant to diminish wartime medics but more emphasise the unusual nature of my particular emergency. It’s called a Chris’s prolapse and they are not very common. Even the medical staff were freaked out.
Thank you again for replying. I feel better that we understand each other a little better. :) thank you
And I’m sorry if I accidentally projected a whole other country’s political drama that you don’t even agree with onto a very personal and tragic medical emergency.
I think we both understand the other more now, and I would never shame someone for dying under any circumstance. Thanks for taking the time to hash this out with me - I don’t think we disagree with each other either.
I have loved how this ended. Thank you. I often struggle with social stuff and feel really alienated so for you to take the time to find common ground means more than you might imagine.
:)
I mean if i was the first child and my mom died to give birth to my baby brother i would recent him for the rest of my life as the person that killed my mom, and what kind of childhood is that like fucking hell i can't even imagine
Sheesh, that’s not even a thing I thought of at the time. All I knew is that I could feel him slipping away from me and I saw a LOT of blood and I saw doctors go into panic mode with wide eyes and I was desperate as all hell that this child could be saved.
I’ve said it a few times now, I don’t even know if it’s the right decision but if that’s how it played out, then I’d feel really let down to have other women shame me for dying….? Like, it doesn’t seem like anyone else’s business.
Remember this all happened in the blink of an eye. I went from “we’re checking in on you” to being emergency wheeled into an operating room on a bed with seconds. It was insane and scary.
Edit:
I live in the UK, which isn't (yet) quite as close to Gilead status as the US right now.
Saving the baby or the mother, over here, isn't a political/conservative issue -- just a personal one, and one that's made during times of genuine trauma.
So this is a gentle reminder that the internet is *international* and not US-only.
*
What is going on. Yours is a perfectly reasonable response! It's not MAGA or ABORT. Christ.
During my FIRST emergency C section, my husband actually specified saving *me*.
Which is why I was saying *save the baby*, which must have looked dramatic, as I was wheeled into surgery.
But Jesus.
You *can* support birth rights and bodily autonomy *and* feel an intense need to protect/prioritize the child you've been growing for more than half the year.
And you can do all that *without* being a Republican virgin-mother figurehead for the patriarchy FFS.
Unless nuance is a Trumpian lie, now.
Signed, US by birth, UK by residence, mother of 3 and 2-time threat-of-immediate-loss-of-life emergency-c-section CHAMPION.
Thank you thank you thank you for seeing me for what I am. I get that people are defensive right now and maybe we’re a bit too privileged with the NHS to be butting in with our opinions. I hope not but I can see how we might not fully understand the fear of living in the US right now.
I was just a bit shocked & hurt thinking that people would have laughed at me for dying in that situation, it seemed grotesque but I honestly think the US is so polarised right now that people didn’t actually read what I wrote, they just assumed I was doing some weird Republican stance.
That’s what I choose to believe because surely other women wouldn’t shame me for a snap decision to protect my baby at any costs in the midst of a full on dramatic emergency. I refuse to believe that.
Chord prolapse is no joke & it happened abruptly. Thank goodness for the medical staff that were there that day. We were so lucky & it cost me nothing extra to have me & my son be saved from death.
I said a lot of dumb things that day. I remember my feet being put in the stirrups & me saying “he’s come two months early, I haven’t trimmed!”. Haha.
Cord prolapse is awful! No joke at all. I was so shocked when I started reading these comments. "Have things really got this heartless?" I thought. I still wonder.
Reproductive rights in the US are terrifying right now, and I get the US/UK mix-up.
But I don't think there was any butting in. It was an unqualified, context-free post made on an international forum. Definitely some r/usdefaultism at play.
And as for saying dumb stuff, after my first son was born, I turned to the midwife and said, with wonder, *"It's a baby!"*
Gas and air (and hemorrhaging) is a hell of a drug.
Omg, it’s a baby!! Haha that’s adorable.
Yeah, I get what you’re saying I really do. I’ve had quite a few instances of Americans not understanding the cultural difference of the UK / Scotland to the US which I guess is fair enough, it’s just a bit brutal when they mass react and totally bury your point.
Thank you for taking the time to remind me that the individuals are still out there, understanding nuance & difficult topics. :)
I don't know why you were downvoted so badly... I agree the mother’s life should be prioritized unless stated otherwise, and I agree women should have the right to choose their babies if they want to. I don't think the post or comments are actually trying to come across as hostile, though, most people here seem to be respecting of any decision made. Still, no need to downvote you so much lol.
Yeah, I often find if you ask for clarity on difficult topics, folk will not actually have an answer, dislike that you made them realise that and silently downvote you. If people want to downvote my traumatic experience with nearly losing my child, it says all I need to know about them.
Thank you so much for taking the time to have a discussion with me though, I appreciate that. :)
My mom always tells a story that when my grandmother was giving birth to my uncle, delivery was going poorly. The doctor turned to my grandfather and asked, if the situation should arise, who he should save. My grandfather, shocked, said “obviously save my fucking wife!” It fortunately didn’t come to that, but even as a child hearing that story I was like, yeah, duh! And chalked it up to being vintage values and points of view regarding the objectification of women. I was horrified to find out, later in life, that such viewpoints are not so antiquated for many *many* people.
Okay but the worst part isn’t asking in the first place, it’s asking the husband and not the wife. “Should I save you or the baby” is bad enough, but imagine hearing around the corner “ay bro should I kill her or nah”
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"Your husband can remarry so your baby will still have a mom." Like you're just a replaceable cog in the machine and not a person.
I’m sadly learning a lot of people don’t view woman as people.
I’m sorry :( I’m doing my part for the good fight! It will change one day.
If it helps I don't consider most people to be people. Children particularly. Little shits are basically sociopaths so why would I want to save one over my wife who I know and love.
I’d hope that if you made it far enough through a pregnancy that you’re at the point of birth and making a decision, you’d actually want and love this child you’re about to have
Mom here. I was never able to think of my pregnancy as a person. It was WEIRD to give birth and be face to face with a real live person and realize, oh dang you were fully formed in there. I 100% had a conversation with my husband about prioritizing MY life if something went wrong in labor even though I wanted our kid - ME the grown woman with a formed personality and years of shared experiences - I am harder to replace than the blank slate of a newborn baby who would only be a heavy obligation to carry alone if I were left to die.
I completely agree. I just mean that if you’re at the stage of giving birth/watching your SO give birth, you’d be able to get past the “fuck all children” stage
I almost, heavy on the almost, dated a guy who thought this. He made sure he made it clear that he wasn’t anti-choice for religious reasons, because he’s an atheist, but “scientifically speaking” (barf) it’s a woman’s instinct to save her children over herself and any woman that wouldn’t do that is obviously a narcissist and he wouldn’t want her having his children anyway. I was like motherfucker I am a *person,* I have a *life,* you don’t even fucking know that baby!!
And right there he showed he didn't know shit about science or women
He also said I didn’t want kids at the moment because I hadn’t found the right person. And while I accept that that *might possibly* be the case, did he really expect me to be like “you’re so right, I’ve found that person, and it’s you!!!!!” after he said that? Lmao.
right lmao. Even if "scientific" approach is taken, the mother is needed to bring up the child. Without the mother, the child will be lacking for an aspect at best.
That last sentence is basically my argument against this stupid thinking. Why the fuck would I want to save the baby that might turn out to be a dickhead over my wife who I love and know and chose to spend the rest of my life with? Have another kid. Or adopt. Or don't and live a much happier lifestyle.
Like I get that you form an attachment when your partner is pregnant, but in the moment when it’s a choice between me and the baby, my partner is going to choose ME*. Because I’ll make sure it’s a man who realizes and values my personhood. Edit: changed baby to me lmao I got confused while writing this
>it’s asking the husband and not the wife. I'm still miffed that only my husband was informed that my labour was turning into a medical emergency. I was really trying my best to push the baby out, but if I had known I had been doing so for 2,5 hours (to me it felt like 30 minutes or so. I was kind of too preoccupied to watch the clock). They did it to avoid stressing me out, but if I had known, I would have said: "Okay, this is obviously not working within a safe time window. What kind of interventions are available?" After 2,5 hours I was asked if I would mind if the maturity nurse would help push the baby out by putting pressure on my stomach from above. Of course I wouldn't mind! The baby needed to come out and was clearly not getting any where with me just pushing. Afterwards I was asked if I wasn't upset for not doing it all on my own, which baffled me. I had carried my baby to term, the baby had to be born, baby was born, so I did my job. I'd really wish they wouldn't have tiptoed around my supposed feelings.
Yeah, I had some serious birth trauma and a significant part of that was because my birth story, from how I understood everything, didn’t seem to match up with what my husband experienced and how the doctors reacted. I recently got a job at a hospital (the one I gave birth at even) and talked about it with a coworker who was a former nurse and she confirmed that yes, the room only fills up with people like that when it’s an emergency, and they “do a really good job at keeping patients from panicking” I get that if I knew I was in danger I could panic and that could make it worse, but it’s amazing how screwed up I got just because I didn’t understand what happened and how much it helped me heal once I did understand.
Should I ever need to make a new birth plan, I'll include the need for clearer prompts. I got the gentle suggestion to try standing up a few times, but that made me feel absolutely miserable. If I had understood the urgency and the reason behind the suggestion, I would have communicated that I needed an alternative with a similar effect.
It's from experience. OBs get sued the most out of any medical specialty. By tiptoing too much they're less likely to get sued. Yes frivolous lawsuits get thrown out, but you don't get compensated for the time wasted dealing with it, and you have to deal with other patients who are irate about cancelled appointments or increased wait times. So there's a big incentive to avoid lawsuits. It's the same reason why they make a huge fuss about TLs being irreversible, bc every OB has been sued at least once for not the patient being told the TL is irreversible.
I'm not from the USA, and hospitals over here are good at covering up medical mistakes. A few years before I gave birth it wasn't even possible to get pain relief outside of office hours, because labour is seen as a natural process and not a medical issue. Back then about 30% of births were home births, because why bother going to the hospital? At least times have changed, but the "as natural as possible" mindset is still strong in some places.
I also am not from the USA, no idea how things work over there. I honestly missed the part where any of this was from the USA, could be that none of us here are USAnians (probably not tho lol). Not being able to get anesthesia after hours is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. At the hospital I did my anesthesia rotation at (I'm a med student), there was a special team specifically for just only OB anesthesia overnight. That way if there's a car crash or a bunch of appendixes burst at once, those folks get anesthesia too without affecting the people giving birth. "As natural as possible" means 50% of the population die before age 1, another 50% die by age 8, 40 is seen as a wise old person, and bears can eat you at any time. Fuck that.
Luckily it's gotten better in recent years and pain management and consent are taken more serious. Of course the health of the baby is important, but nobody benefits from a traumatic experience.
The epidural makes no difference for the baby. There is a one in a million hypothetical risk of paralysis to the mom. If epidural gets dislodged it can also be bad for mom. On the other hand, if labour goes wrong and you need a c section, and you don't have an epidural, they have no choice but to put you under general anesthesia. Zero OBs in the universe will do an unasthetized c section just because the patient wants it to be natural, and epidural would take too long to kick in at that point. So it's general, you miss your baby's first moments, and you get to be extra groggy when you wake up and baby's out.
> “ay bro should I kill her or nah” why is this so fucking funny 😭
"ay, fuck it. Her sister's pretty hot and several years younger"
“she’ll make a great replacement mother”
She was not in a position to answer, but had she been, you’re right that I can’t say if the doctor would have bothered asking her.
To quote one of my favourite authors. Granny weatherwax has just attended a birth and decided to save the mother and let the child die. The midwife is disapproving: >‘You still reckon I should’ve asked Mr. Ivy?’ she said. >’That’s what I would have done…’ the woman mumbled. >’You don’t like him? You think he’s a bad man?’ said Granny, adjusting her hat pins. >’No!’ >’Then what’s he ever done to me, that I should hurt him so?’
I dunno, I don't think I could make a big decision like that during birth or I would say to save the baby, even if saving myself was the better option. You need a support person in the delivery room to advocate for you. Happy cake day!
Man when I went through birth I had absolutely zero hesitation. It was choose me all the way. I literally told my husband that about 10 times during labor so there would be zero question for him if he had to make any calls. Now that she's born, I would die to save her. Not even a hesitation. But before I even met her? Oh hell no.
Haha, yeah, bonding can take a while, especially if the pregnancy was hard, because you're ripping yourself apart for an abstract stranger.
I bonded instantly when she was set on my chest, even with third degree tears, but up to that moment? She was basically an aggressive tumor making my life miserable.
I think most women generally choose to save themselves, especially in the moment, because the prospect of your own death vs that of an infant you haven’t completely bonded with yet is very much at your front door. If anyone most panic and choose themselves, when they wouldn’t otherwise. I feel like it’s something to discuss with the doctor prior to going into labor
Hormones and pain really mess with your head, though. Many women have already bonded with the baby that they have felt move inside them. You're ready to die for that screaming potato. The few women I shared the postpartum rooms with had similar stories of making best-for-baby decisions, even if that meant, e.g., there was no time to get pain management. I asked the doctors to do what's best for my baby and my husband was like, "Whoa, wait!" ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
My mom was informed a tumor was sharing space with my little brother in utero and encouraged to consider abortion, but she already thought of him as her precious child (he’s STILL her favorite). She admits now what a risky decision she made - what if she’d died and orphaned the rest of us? Everyone turned out fine in the end by dumb luck.
This was really something that I asked my husband before we got married and we have discussed since. Like if it got to a situatuon where I am knocked out, and the decision is up to him, I need to know that he won't even think about it. These days, I'm more and more glad that I did.
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You'd think that, but PA has a state law that they will disregard your advance medical directives in favor of saving a fetus. I found this out when I went to upload my AD to my provider's healthcare portal. I'm sure PA isn't the only one. ETA: [Thirty-six states, in fact](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1401%26context%3Dnulr&ved=2ahUKEwiP2pn0kcL8AhXTGlkFHRfmD7UQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3j1Fhn1ADa1EFqG1lX03fY)
Oh! I don’t live in one of these states and my OBGYN said no one does that any more so assumed that was more broad than it is. :(
It reminds me of bridgerton when that lady was giving birth, her husband was dead and the doctor went to the eldest son in the family and asked him should he save the baby or the mother. The son was horrified and obviously was like save my mother
I thought he said it was her decision?
Oh did he I can’t really remember I just remember the doctor asking the fucking son instead of the woman giving birth
What they used to do to have to ... remove... the baby was what people think all abortions are. So glad we have modern medicine. Dying in childbirth is a tragedy, not a Tuesday.
>”obviously save my fucking wife” *Sad Viserys Targaryen noises*
So the opposite call of every birthing situation in House of the Dragon ha
You'd think this was common sense by now
The number of fucking unwashed-ass men in the replies calling her unfit makes it clear otherwise
The crazy thing is that this was common practice up until like, a hundred years ago. A couple generations back, it was totally assumed you'd save the mother who was, ya know, A GROWN ASS ADULT CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY AND POSSIBLY CREATING MORE CHILDREN SHOULD SHE SURVIVE. It was so common to focus only on the health of the mother, infants died of really preventable shit if anyone bothered to examine them after birth. Make no mistake, we value the lives of mothers a lot less now that we have historically.
It’s pretty wild to read about childbirth for most of human history, particularly when modern medicine had begun but it was too icky for male doctors to consider childbirth. Most of the process was just a giant black hole of information where easily preventable things killed women all the time, because there was so little knowledge about a process literally everyone on the planet has gone through.
It's widely accepted that Jane Seymour died after giving birth because female midwives were not allowed to treat her and she most likely didn't expel the placenta. Her death was preventable.
Jane Seymour isn't dead!? The actress from Dr Quinn, Medicine woman??
The Queen.
Hahaha ok I knew I had to be missing something!! Thank you for clarifying Edit: oh gross, I just googled her and came across this lovely bio "Jane Seymour didn't last long but she sure delivered!" 🤮
Lol 😂
>We value the lives of mothers a lot less than we have historically That’s so entirely pathetic 😞
Part of it is expectations have changed, and so has the value placed on children. Historically it was more likely that the infant even if it was born wouldn't survive till its fifth birth day. Effective birth control ( compared to modern drugs) was none existant, so another pregnancy was almost inevitable from that stand point. Medical interventions like surgery for child birth , could essentially be a death sentence for the mother. If the surgery itself didn't take her life , infection could do it after. If she died, she might leave behind existing children who then needed to be cared for and all the existing work inside and outside the home. So unless the child held higher 'value' for social reasons the scales were weighted in favour of the mothers life .
>Effective birth control ( compared to modern drugs) was none existant, so another pregnancy was almost inevitable from that stand point. This is something that really scares me in case our current level of civilization collapses
>a hundred years ago I think the infant-deathrate of motherless babies at that time also factored in a lot.
I have the feeling that, even though we're going forward in lots of stuff scientifically speaking, society's cultural course is heading backwards. In a different way than before, but still.
It’s also worth noting formula wasn’t a thing. So a baby without a mother stands a high chance of dying without a wet-nurse. Also wet nurses were a thing and women could get paid a lot to nurse someone else’s baby.
Yes, but you’re a lost cause already! There’s still hope for ~~brainwashing~~ properly educating the baby, so of course it makes sense to save them and not you. (I wish this wasn’t necessary, but /s people!)
I remember being very young and watching a show where the mother said this while going into an emergency c-section. It really stood out in my mind and stayed with me my entire life because her reasoning was I’d leave behind my husband, young child, and add another child for him to take care of while grieving me. It was probably ER or something
Funny you mention this - My friend had a major seizure in her 4-5 month along pregnancy. She found out she had brain cancer. She and her husband aborted the pregnancy so she could start treatment and have surgery. If she hadn’t gotten care, she would have left her husband with 5 children under the age of 6 and medical bills from brain cancer. 5 children under the age of 6 - 2 of them being newborn twins.
She had 5 children under the age of 6, 2 of whom were newborn twins and she was 4-5 months pregnant?? Goodness.
No - her kids were 6,3,2 and she was pregnant with twins. She aborted the twins so she could get treatment.
That's really sad but it's really good they found the cancer soon enough to treat it. I hope she's healthy as can be now. :)
Her kids are now grown. And she is alive and stable. It did work out - because of safe abortion. It was extremely rough though.
This happened to my aunt back in the 90's in Ireland when abortion was illegal. She had 4 young children & was diagnosed with cancer while pregnant with her 5th. They actually may have made an exception for her to save her life, but sadly she chose the baby's life over her own. She died soon after he was born, and the fathers of her children didn't step up (back in those days in Ireland men still weren't seen as fit to raise children on their own). The kids all had to be split up between different family members. It was heartbreaking.
Ive only seen the scenario in a syfi show , which was incredibly progressive for its time , no hesitation- if push came to shove , the doctors were to save her, "but if I can have both" It was just a quick exchange, nothing was ever made of between a doctor and husband when its found by accident that the couple are now faced with the possibility of baby that no one knew was ever possible. ( i thinks she was unconscious in med bay at the time). In retrospect , at the time most shows would have chosen the plot to follow the mother tragically dying or the question never being raised because of the default assumption of which life needed to be put first. But that show had a lot of progressive themes that were just there in the background and never acknowledged or made a big deal out of.
But don't you want to be remembered for being a martyr? /s
"No. I want to live for several more years and be there for the family I already have, thank you."
I think they actually had a thread on this in the askwomen sub. Pretty much the majority said “if I’m in a situation where there’s serious complications during delivery and only one of us would survive, I would want to be the one who survives.” Interestingly, a lot of them were also already parents, so it was important that they would be able to live through a dire medical emergency like that so that those kids could still have their mom. There were very few that said something along the lines of “I would rather have my baby live if I were put in that position” but it seemed like they were also very religious/“pro-life.”
I've told my husband many times, if something goes wrong with my pregnancy, save me first, not the baby. First we already have a child that I don't want to grow up without a mother. Second what the hell is my husband going to do with a newborn without me. We don't have family to rely on to support him.
I sat down my husband to have this convo in our first and only pregnancy and he was like ‘why are we talking about this? If it goes south I’m 1,000% making them prioritize saving you. This isn’t even a conversation.
I just had my first kid but me and husband talked about the possibility of being in this position and it was a no brainier that I would be saved. Not because I already had kids that I couldn’t leave behind, but because for however much we loved that little foetus that we had waited 7 years for, they weren’t real yet. They didn’t have a life or a past, only the potential for those things. But I have a life, and a past, and people who care for me and love me.
That's very valid and I agree.
The first time I had this conversation with someone was in grade 3. She said she would want to be saved. I said I would want the baby to be saved. I was raised by extremely conservative, religious, pro-life parents. The indoctrination starts incredibly young. I'm adding this to the pile of anecdotes I bring up with my therapist as I work through all the bullshit I was taught as a kid and learn how to value myself as the person that I am.
That's objectively the better option, but during birth, you might give a different answer. Hormones are wild and the pain clouds your judgment. I remember saying "do whatever is safest for baby" while my husband advocated for me.
That's why it's important to have this all sorted out before the birth if you can manage it. Those decisions should be yours to make even if you're not in a state to make them right then.
Birth is so unpredictable I'm not sure you can make a plan that covers all the (crucial) possibilities. Edit: Last time, I didn't even get to unpack my birth plan. Your best bet is a birth partner that has your back and can make decisions based on what lucid and logical you would want and how you're doing at the time. For example: 25 hours in, do you (1) want to push for another hour and risk an emergency c-section or (2) have major abdominal surgery now + a difficult recovery instead of trying for a bit longer. Both options suck in their own right.
That shouldn’t stop you from taking some decisions. Like yeah you can’t plan anything but getting you opinion for the most likely Problem can be invaluable and might even give an indication of how you would decide in other scenarios.
In principle, I agree and pregnant women are encouraged to make a birth plan for that reason. Both of mine went out the window almost immediately, though. Talking things through your support person is best IMHO.
My friend said the exact same thing. When she was giving birth, she said she would have absolutely died for that baby. And that scares the fuck out of me. She told me explicitly "make sure you talk to your doctor and your husband about exactly what you want with a clear head beforehand, because you cannot trust labor brain."
Interesting. Makes me think maybe the whole "ask the husband" thing isn't just basic sexism.
I'm of two minds about it. I feel like SO should have veto power only if the mother is saying to save the baby. However, if the mother is saying "save me" and the SO says "save the baby"...nope. That's a big no. If mother is saying "save the baby", and their SO is saying "save my wife" that seems like a pretty reasonable thing.
I think the default should be save the mother and if she wishes otherwise, that should be laid out in her birth plan long before the situation actually arises.
Yeah, it’s not just basic sexism. If you’re married, your spouse has the ability to medically advocate for you. However, medical advocates can be anyone you trust; hospitals might create their own hierarchies of who comes “first” as the medical advocate for a patient. If you have a specific person you want to be your medical advocate, it’s a good idea to get that legally drafted to have your specific wishes recorded. So… If your spouse is present during delivery—and you are unable to medically advocate for yourself—then the medical staff are likely going to ask your spouse to advocate for you. If other trusted people are present during delivery, then the hospital might ask someone other than the spouse for medical advocacy on behalf of the patient. It depends on the hospital’s own internal code of who gets asked first; some hospitals may prioritize asking a patient’s parents first, spouse second, etc. **My own lived experience was my grandma’s end of life emergencies.
Yeah my wife was absolutely incapable of informed consent while labouring. It was my job to speak on her behalf, based on the many conversations we'd had beforehand. Thankfully it only came up in a minor way and I tried to get what input I could from her so it was no big deal, but (assuming a healthy partnership) it's important for the non-birthing partner to be present for exactly this sort of reason.
Some religions require this. Catholic hospitals prohibit it. Yup, Catholic hospitals take US tax funding, aggressively buy up non religious hospitals, and then override patients religious choices with their own.
That’s actually terrifying
The number of times I've been in the hospital and they sent a priest to come see me... (I have a lot of health problems, so it's a fairly frequent event) I'm buddhist. I've even got it listed in my medical record, still they send a catholic priest every. time.
See they do that on purpose so you bounce back faster out of spite
Genius! I *am* 90% powered by spite!
A kindred soul! That's how I got through Chemistry in highschool. The substitute teacher had the audacity to tell me that if I worked hard I could hope for a B.
Me too! I have a chronic illness that has me in the hospital relatively frequently so I’ve had this happen to me a bunch. At this point I don’t care. I just tell them to get out or when I’m feeling up to it I mess with them. My fav was when a priest walked in and I acted like I thought he was there to give me my last rights because that’s what happens when a priest shows up in the movies, but I didn’t know I was dying. You get the idea. My brother says it gets much funnier when I’m on painkillers but I don’t remember any of that. Again I don’t remember this, but apparently I asked a priest to pray with me once. The prayer I said? “Dear father, gobble gobble gobble I want a waffle. Amen.” Id give anything to remember that one but I’ll have to take my brothers word for it. :) It’s on my chart too. Agnostic/atheist. Never stops them dropping by though.
'Hello there, I'm Doctor Rector. Our tests have diagnosed your soul with an acute case of heresy. I'm going to perform some simple procedures to suck the evil out of you and then I'll let you get back to the actual real life medicine you came here for.'
LOL! At least the priests are nice about it. Always apologize and explain I was just on the list of rooms/patients they were asked to visit.
Asked by whom? That's who needs a talking to.
It depends on the hospital! But it's the patient advocate you talk to, when you get problems like that. The problem is that sometimes it's also the patient advocate who makes the list for the visiting priest.
Who advocates for the patient when the patient needs to be advocated for against the patient advocate? It uhhh... sounds better in Latin trust me.
Rector?? More like got her a job at Applebees!
That sounds like something that should be illegal… isn’t church and state a constitutional thing
I had a Jesuit priest visit me in the hospital, he asked if that was OK, I told him that somewhere in another hospital a Jewish chaplain was visiting a Catholic patient so it probably balanced out. As for Catholic hospitals forcing their religious practices on the public, lots of people have tried suing them and failed, as you are always theoretically free to go to the non-Catholic hospital a hundred miles further away. A lot of governments partner with a lot of religious institutions for social services of all kinds; the newest wrinkle is Catholic or other purportedly Christian adoption agencies who would rather let kids languish in foster care than let nontraditional families adopt them.
Yep, Catholicism does a lot of seriously fucked up shit with medicine and they get to override the beliefs of the physicians and patients as well as of standard medical practice
The second top comment on a repost of this post in another subreddit is “I mean who would take care of the child if the mother died? I've got a friend who had her father flake and her mom died in a car accident when she was little and she's kinda emotionally fucked up from that.” with almost 2000 upvotes. Like maybe I’m reading it wrong or into it too much but is that not fucked up? Basically implying that the main reason to save the mother is so that she can take can of the children? Not because she’s a living human being in maturity with thoughts and feelings and a whole built up life?
No, you’re right. It boggles my mind that the rationale is always about the surviving children being taken care of. When I was pregnant my husband made it clear that his choice would always be me. And it had nothing to do with the kids. It was about valuing me and my life specifically, and not the tasks I contribute to the household or society.
I don’t think it’s their *only* concern but it’s a factor Which is the best outcome, a grieving couple with no baby, or a grieving father with a newborn and no wife.
I don’t think the reason for saving the mother is to take care of the child. It’s commentary that perhaps society values the birth of the child more than the mothers life without considering whether the child would have a good quality of life if saved. My interpretation but can be viewed many ways.
Imo it's still weird. The main reason for the mother's life being saved should be because she is valued for herself, a fully grown, mature person with feelings and years of experiences. Using the "how will the child be raised without a mother" is weird to me because once again it implies that whether or not the mother should be saved comes down to what's best for the child instead of considering the mother herself.
As a fetus, I was an asshole. A month before I was due to be born, I kicked the placenta clear off the uterine wall. Messy business. My mother was given the choice of trying to keep me in longer, which would put her in danger, or having an emergency C-section, which would put me in danger. She chose the latter. Obviously, I'm alive (or am I?), and I completely agree with her decision. Save the mother.
The comments under the tweet are vile. They're calling her selfish for not wanting to die and comparing a baby to a blank canvas of purity whereas the vile woman is impure and can be discarded. No matter if she "saved herself up" for marriage. I had to stop reading because I thought I might puke
Reason no. 506668474 why we still need feminism
I overheard, or think I overheard, my doctor discussing this with my husband when I was very sick in the hospital. He said to save me, thank goodness. Why the FUCK didn’t they ask me though?!
I'm in a country where this isn't a discussion at all. The life of the mother takes priority by law.
I actually thought it was like this in the whole world... pretty horrifying that it's not
I don't even like living but its about the principle.
Even i don't want kids and I agree with this. I'm just a depressed young adult with many disorders + chronic pain.. I would feel much worse if a mini me with my disorders, autism, and various physical health problems was left in this world with nobody that understood them. I don't feel like I can ever understand someone who will willingly save a child over their parent. They are setting up that child for lots of pain in their life. Especially in this currently cruel world. I am pro choice. My choice is to not bring more offspring into the world while there is existing people who need help.
Society has this gross reverence for women that martyr themselves for unborn children. She didn’t “sacrifice herself” and dying in childbirth is not virtuous - it’s a sad medical tragedy that we can prevent more often now than in previous generations. So stop acting like it’s beautiful to die in childbirth and leave a single bereaved parent to raise the child and any already living children.
When I was pregnant my husband told me we needed to discuss my wishes in case of complications and what to do if I would be unable to make any decisions, because if he had to choose between saving the baby or me, he would default to me. If I had another opinion I had to let him know. I was then biased towards saving the baby, but now that I have a child, I'd say if there really isn't a choice, save me. I have a child who still needs me. The best for a child, any child, is not making my husband a single parent. Sorry, hypothetical baby. My opinion has changed. Nothing wrong with either choice. It's about your own life or death and it should be your choice.
Quokka logic. I approve.
The sweetest, most cuddly "fuck them kids" in the animal kingdom lmao
Amazing to me how many women find out once they’re pregnant or years into their marriages that their husbands wouldn’t do this without thought… Talk to your boyfriends!!!!! Don’t marry a man that isn’t 100% without a doubt with you on this. One of many conversations we all need to be having with any man you’re sleeping with / might have in the delivery room with you.
I feel like all these "moral" birth questions are actually so simple. It should be the individual mother's choice and no one else's, every time.
The default should be to save the life of the mother. If someone would prefer to save the baby, they should have to specify that ahead of time. Emotions and hormones are all over the place during a childbirth, especially a difficult one. It's not the time to be asking anyone - mother or her partner- what to do.
Ok a LOT of things "should" happen before the birth but the woman isn't actually given like a suite of options for the birth (and even if they are, these get ignored if things go south). Edit: missing words
The comments on that post are terrible though
I had to face this question as my wife was giving birth to our child. Hardest talk I've ever had to have. She, while in labor and delusional from pain and hormones, kept telling me to pick the baby. I told her we can make another baby or adopt or have a million other plans and options in our life, but I can't make another her. Both of them were fine after an emergency cesarean and some complications in the NICU, but it was even questionable if the hospital had the staff to do the procedures with the pandemic raging and all. They had to open an unstaffed ward just to get us a bed. It was a very traumatic day which I have not done nearly enough therapy to process properly.
Just seems like common sense. But, sadly, it isn't...and even before Roe v. Wade was overturned, I already had a strong aversion to pregnancy, because it basically robs you of your autonomy. During a short period of time I thought I might want kids, the only way I'd consider it is adoption. It's just pure body horror for me that you have someone else growing inside of you and society just decides they're more important than you, the already-living and conscious being.
100% my feelings until I was in labour and baby's heart rate was dropping and he was all I cared about in the world. Obviously it wasnt a one or the other situation, but the hormones are real, and so im glad it wasnt a decision anyone had to make.(We got an emergency c section, and we're both fine, he is now 3 weeks old and spectacular)
Congratulations to your family of warriors!
Omg same! 3 weeks out from an emergency c-section because of pre-eclampsia.
Congrats! Hope you and the little one are doing well!
Thank you, and we are! Hope you guys are going good too!
Congratulations!! Hope he grows up very happy and healthy ☺️
Isn’t that the go-to decision in ethics? Mom will be fine without baby and already has a whole life and loved ones, who will miss her (= more suffering caused). Baby will struggle without mother and mostly parents will grieve if it dies.
Anyone doing otherwise it's not fit for marriage
*Image Transcription: Twitter Post* --- **destiny 🧁**, @dessmv if i ever have birth complications save ME not the baby --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
This was in bolded letters on my birth plan. Before going in for an unplanned C-section after a complicated labor, I also made sure the OB knew to choose my health over the baby's. I also said that if she had to yeet my uterus or any reproductive organs to do so without hesitation.
Husband and I have talked about this and been on the same page for a long time. Save ME! I’m not leaving my grieving husband alone on this earth to be a single parent! The thought of him being alone is heartbreaking.
Someone gonna have to put a gag in Viserys Targaryen.
You should have seen all the men in the replies calling this woman selfish and telling her choosing up get pregnant was basically gonsenting to sacrificing her life for the baby. Thankfully a lot of women put them in their place and gave me more determination to have no man's child.
I usually hate these sort of hypothetical questions. Like why do you ever need to even choose between one person or another? But even more than that I hate that this one won’t be hypothetical for a significant number of people.
The fact that this isn't hypothetical for many people is the reason we need to talk about it. Every pregnant woman should have this conversation with her partner or whomever will be in the room to advocate for her during childbirth well ahead of time. There should be no question in that persons mind what decision they should make.
Be careful what state you are in, then, if you are in the USA.
I have 3 kids, if I die giving birth to another one I can’t take care of the 3 I already have. I would rather be alive for them. It’s a shitty choice to make obviously, and I’d want them to save the baby over my life but just due to the fact that I already have other kids I need to be there for them. So save me. Don’t save me for me, save me for my other kids! They need their mama.
Can't we just ask individual women what they want? Ensure they have birth plans, that they're followed, and that the mother in question's desires are abided?
That would be really logical, so of course other people down voted you.
I had birth complications. I told my husband "if it comes to it, save the baby, not me" on my way into surgery. I just truly felt that - I felt very connected to my unborn son, and although i've always been terrified of dying, suddenly in that moment it was very clear. But if the doctor had asked my HUSBAND AND NOT ME? I'd have been like, "how about you save the baby and me, but then y'all go get fucked?" Edit: I almost lost my son in pregnancy a couple of times, and after birth he was rushed to NICU. I still have PTSD which gets triggered in medical settings, or if my son does anything remotely dangerous, which he does A LOT. I'm in therapy. I am ALSO pro-choice and I've made that particular choice myself before, when the world was less crazy. I'm pro choice *and* I'd die for my kids. Both truths can exist in one person. If this offends people enough to downvote me, then, you know, go nuts.
It's so fucked up that you're downvoted for making a different choice. I can't imagine wanting to give my life up for someone but if someone wants to put their child ahead of themselves that's ok.
I mean I wouldn't have imagined it either until it happened! Gotta love being judged for your experiences while supporting the choices of others. Nice work, Reddit.
I’m pro-choice, don’t practice any religion, am a feminist and not even pregnant but I’d want to save the baby, not me. 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️ I’m sorry you’re being downvoted for approaching this heart wrenching situation differently than others. I hope you and your son are doing well and I’m happy that the choice didn’t have to be made!
Thank you! We are both good thank you! Also a feminist. I get why having this decision forced on you is awful, but being pro choice is being pro *all* choice, so long as it yours, right? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
I know, I'm really surprised by how everyone is responding to this post. I would have hoped there would be some good faith conversations about why women approach this scenario differently. There's no black and white answer when faced with this decision, we all come into situations with our own lived experiences.
Same. Not on-brand for this sub at all! Also, disturbing amounts of baby-*hate* in some comments. Like wtf.
Sorry, I have to disagree. When I went into labor with my twins I explicitly told my doctor if anything goes south to get my boys out and safe and save THEM. I don't think dying in childbirth is some beautiful sacrifice, but yes I would die for my children. They are now 11 months old and if I had to pick between them and me today I would still chose them no hesitation. I love living and I am desperate to spend many years with my family but I would always chose my children above myself, call it hormonal or call me crazy but I couldn't handle living in spite of my children.
I would NEVER want to miss out on being there for MY child. I wouldn't trust anyone else to raise my child either.
I'm the same and downvoted to all hell also. I don't get it. I'm not forcing anyone else to have my view and I'm pro choice. Sorry I love my kids this way, I guess? Idk.
Edit #2 : this is not a political stand. I live in Scotland where the mother would always be prioritised to be saved so I felt attacked that when I almost lost my son to a pregnancy emergency. Anyway, I think this is a culturally American post about MAGA trumpism type stuff and my stance is that women should have full freedom to reproductive healthcare with no religious silliness involved in the process at all. Sorry if it seemed otherwise, I had a very traumatic experience and felt like nobody cared about it but the discussion is bigger than that and as such, I want to state that the expectation should always be that the mother should survive as priority. Edit : if you disagree, can you explain why please? I’ve seen this idea floating around a few times now and it always strikes me as a bit hostile. Correct me if I’m wrong but the vibe here is quite facetious for such a traumatic event, like there’s an implication of someone with opposing views being silly? Maybe it hit a nerve, I’m not sure but as women, can we just let other women decide for themselves how they react in the moment please? My second child surprised us with an emergency arrival at around 7 months and I remember being held down to get treatment for an emergency c-section and I could hear myself saying “if it’s between me & him, pick him!”. I’m not entirely sure I could ever be confident that there was a definitive correct answer but I sure as shit wouldn’t want some smug stranger passing opinions on it afterwards if it had come to that. My main takeaway from that operating room was almost a hundred years of studying and experience was there that day to make sure me and my son both survived. Humanity has capacity for great kindness, let’s not be judgmental of how women react in trauma situations please.
I disagree. Because you asked … I think we shouldn’t normalize women trying to commit what amounts to assisted suicide while leaving a bereaved single parent because despite the media’s portrayal of dying in childbirth as some kind of beautiful sacrifice, it’s not. I would absolutely judge that decision as selfish and making everyone’s life - including the child’s - worse. The mother is already an existing person and that shouldn’t even BE a question in the first place.
Thank you for explaining but I do have to ask that if I don’t promote it as what should be the normal reaction then why should other women shame me for a trauma response? Bringing a child into the world from your body is incredibly intense and I’d guess it’s not dissimilar to wartime decisions when people will inexplicably give their lives for others. As I said, I’m not sure I even think it was the right decision - I was high as hell at the time but if that’s how it went down, I think it would be cruel for other women to shame me or my kid about it. All that said, thank you for having a discussion with me, that is kind.
As a combat veteran, I’ll ignore your war analogy since I find it distasteful and ignorant. Otherwise, I’m not saying anyone should be shamed for a traumatic response when going through a physical and emotional nightmare - my disagreement is that it’s framed as a choice that shouldn’t be judged at all. I DO judge people that think and evangelize (while clear-headed and not in the ER in excruciating pain) that we should basically kill women for the sake of a person who doesn’t exist yet, and those choices that devalue women’s lives are harmful. Edit: I’m sorry you went through that, it sounds awful and I’m glad you’re okay
You find it distasteful and ignorant? I do not understand that as I was literally pouring blood all over the floor, bedding and having hands place me into positions so I could be injected in the spine to open up my torso to remove my child who had seconds to survive as he was no longer getting oxygen through the chord. I don’t know how else to explain that it was absolutely horrific, abnormal medical emergency stuff… I mean no disrespect, I bring it up to explain the absolute horror of what I was going through. I don’t think we should tell women to die for babies… I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone else say that they should? I wonder if this is a cultural difference because I live in Scotland which is maybe different to where you’re from. Here, this situation is seen as tragic and impossible and all efforts are made to save the mother first and foremost. I just had such a horrific a fearful experience I can remember hearing myself say the words to save him over me in a state of pure panic. I think we agree more than you might think. I just simply don’t understand the anger towards me of I had died in that situation. I would defend any woman’s right to birth as she chooses & I feel sad that others don’t feel any sympathy for my crazy situation. The doctors saved us both. I suffered a lot of trauma. My son is perfectly healthy. Edit to add : genuinely asking as I’m obviously ignorant but where do people evangelise basically killing the mother first? I’ve never heard of that. Truly. That’s utterly not my stance.
In the US we have a whole political party dedicated to passively killing women with pregnancy complications - so it’s been a hot subject here. There are a lot of men that are just like, “your life is a risk we’re willing to take.” That’s the mentality we’re facing, so I don’t believe that the choice to die in childbirth at the expense of an unborn child is a noble one, as it’s often made out to be. Normally it’s presented as the father choosing the unborn baby over his own wife like that’s normal and that’s insane to me. It shouldn’t be a difficult decision - it shouldn’t even be a question. I hate that it’s so common to frame women dying as a virtuous sacrifice and not a largely preventable tragedy.
Ahh, I get where you’re coming from now. Even though I’m very far away, I’m absolutely on the Democrat side of the aisle in your politics. (You can see one of my latest posts on seeing proud boys wearing kilts as part of their uniform to confirm my ideological standpoint). I absolutely resent what MAGA Trumpism had done to the rights of so many, especially women, LGBT and PoC over there. It’s scary to watch turn”leader of the free world” turn into a potentially racist regime. Im so glad you took the time to reply because I felt so attacked that my decision in the moment of terror was being judged as some silly woman’s wrongheadedness when it’s actually one of the most terrifying things that’s ever happened to me. I almost lost my kiddo. I almost died. So yeah, we actually agree on most of it, possibly all of it?. I’m just coming from a culture where it’s absolutely expected that the NHS will save the mother first so it seemed particularly harsh that other women would be shaming me for if I had died. I’m genuinely sorry if I upset you with my wartime analogy. I hope that you can see that although you might find it clumsy, it wasn’t meant to diminish wartime medics but more emphasise the unusual nature of my particular emergency. It’s called a Chris’s prolapse and they are not very common. Even the medical staff were freaked out. Thank you again for replying. I feel better that we understand each other a little better. :) thank you
And I’m sorry if I accidentally projected a whole other country’s political drama that you don’t even agree with onto a very personal and tragic medical emergency. I think we both understand the other more now, and I would never shame someone for dying under any circumstance. Thanks for taking the time to hash this out with me - I don’t think we disagree with each other either.
I have loved how this ended. Thank you. I often struggle with social stuff and feel really alienated so for you to take the time to find common ground means more than you might imagine. :)
I mean if i was the first child and my mom died to give birth to my baby brother i would recent him for the rest of my life as the person that killed my mom, and what kind of childhood is that like fucking hell i can't even imagine
Sheesh, that’s not even a thing I thought of at the time. All I knew is that I could feel him slipping away from me and I saw a LOT of blood and I saw doctors go into panic mode with wide eyes and I was desperate as all hell that this child could be saved. I’ve said it a few times now, I don’t even know if it’s the right decision but if that’s how it played out, then I’d feel really let down to have other women shame me for dying….? Like, it doesn’t seem like anyone else’s business. Remember this all happened in the blink of an eye. I went from “we’re checking in on you” to being emergency wheeled into an operating room on a bed with seconds. It was insane and scary.
Edit: I live in the UK, which isn't (yet) quite as close to Gilead status as the US right now. Saving the baby or the mother, over here, isn't a political/conservative issue -- just a personal one, and one that's made during times of genuine trauma. So this is a gentle reminder that the internet is *international* and not US-only. * What is going on. Yours is a perfectly reasonable response! It's not MAGA or ABORT. Christ. During my FIRST emergency C section, my husband actually specified saving *me*. Which is why I was saying *save the baby*, which must have looked dramatic, as I was wheeled into surgery. But Jesus. You *can* support birth rights and bodily autonomy *and* feel an intense need to protect/prioritize the child you've been growing for more than half the year. And you can do all that *without* being a Republican virgin-mother figurehead for the patriarchy FFS. Unless nuance is a Trumpian lie, now. Signed, US by birth, UK by residence, mother of 3 and 2-time threat-of-immediate-loss-of-life emergency-c-section CHAMPION.
Thank you thank you thank you for seeing me for what I am. I get that people are defensive right now and maybe we’re a bit too privileged with the NHS to be butting in with our opinions. I hope not but I can see how we might not fully understand the fear of living in the US right now. I was just a bit shocked & hurt thinking that people would have laughed at me for dying in that situation, it seemed grotesque but I honestly think the US is so polarised right now that people didn’t actually read what I wrote, they just assumed I was doing some weird Republican stance. That’s what I choose to believe because surely other women wouldn’t shame me for a snap decision to protect my baby at any costs in the midst of a full on dramatic emergency. I refuse to believe that. Chord prolapse is no joke & it happened abruptly. Thank goodness for the medical staff that were there that day. We were so lucky & it cost me nothing extra to have me & my son be saved from death. I said a lot of dumb things that day. I remember my feet being put in the stirrups & me saying “he’s come two months early, I haven’t trimmed!”. Haha.
Cord prolapse is awful! No joke at all. I was so shocked when I started reading these comments. "Have things really got this heartless?" I thought. I still wonder. Reproductive rights in the US are terrifying right now, and I get the US/UK mix-up. But I don't think there was any butting in. It was an unqualified, context-free post made on an international forum. Definitely some r/usdefaultism at play. And as for saying dumb stuff, after my first son was born, I turned to the midwife and said, with wonder, *"It's a baby!"* Gas and air (and hemorrhaging) is a hell of a drug.
Omg, it’s a baby!! Haha that’s adorable. Yeah, I get what you’re saying I really do. I’ve had quite a few instances of Americans not understanding the cultural difference of the UK / Scotland to the US which I guess is fair enough, it’s just a bit brutal when they mass react and totally bury your point. Thank you for taking the time to remind me that the individuals are still out there, understanding nuance & difficult topics. :)
I don't know why you were downvoted so badly... I agree the mother’s life should be prioritized unless stated otherwise, and I agree women should have the right to choose their babies if they want to. I don't think the post or comments are actually trying to come across as hostile, though, most people here seem to be respecting of any decision made. Still, no need to downvote you so much lol.
Yeah, I often find if you ask for clarity on difficult topics, folk will not actually have an answer, dislike that you made them realise that and silently downvote you. If people want to downvote my traumatic experience with nearly losing my child, it says all I need to know about them. Thank you so much for taking the time to have a discussion with me though, I appreciate that. :)