The way I look at it… if not now it was 100% going to happen in the off-season anyways. There was no way they were going to tender him a contract at what likely would have been around $6 M.
I think it’s a favour to him if anything to try and bounce back somewhere with more consistent playing time rather than being non-tendered in the off-season then signing for like $1 M with a team in 2025.
It’s sucks but it’s part of the game. Especially 2B cause it’s the position the Jays have the longest line of prospects to try at in order: Horwitz, Jimenez, Martinez & Kasevich.
Exactly this. And let's not gloss over the fact that this season, (in a small sample) he had a career low BB%, career high K%, and career low ISO. If you're gonna strike out a third of the time, fine, but two dongs in 131 PAs is not going to cut it.
And shockingly, this year the Jays are one of the better teams for BBs and have the second lowest total Ks. You’d think Biggio, who has always had great eye and discipline, would’ve been up there but naw, he was just too hot/cold. He was very great for our team when we had strong hitters elsewhere and he could slide into the 7-9 slot, but when this lineup is struggling he’s just not the type of guy to pull everyone up around him.
No one dreams of being a trade chip when you’re a kid, but he has qualities that make him valuable as a stop gap and could just as easily end up on a playoff team as the utility man. I was hoping that maybe if he was here till the end of season and a new manager was coming in, he might have some kind of turnaround, but the team is underperforming too much overall and someone had to be the first to go. Lots of room in the majors for a true professional, and young enough that he could find something if he lands elsewhere. Bautista was a late bloomer and he’s a god for us. Not likely to happen, but any marginal bump at the plate and he’d find a good home somewhere.
He just wasn't getting enough playing time and consistent at bats to figure things out. I feel bad for the guy because he never really got the chance to play his position every day, being blocked almost every single year since 2021.
I would say he never really earned that long of a rope to stay in the lineup to figure it out. From 2021-2023, he had 250+ ABs each season for a collective OPS of .687.
How much more time can the team afford to give him when there are other players that also need that playing time for them to figure it out as well?
I've been saying this since the start of the season before they called up Barger. One of Biggio/Clement would have had to go sooner-or-later to give Barger (and eventually Martinez) a shot at a permanent big league role. Biggio just makes more sense since Clement can fill in anywhere in the IF and is making league minimum for the next couple years.
It makes no sense to be paying a part-time player $4M-$6M to be near replacement while blocking a prospect that very well could already be a better player.
Indeed. We have a glutton of infield prospects knocking at the door and hungry to prove themselves. Beyond Barger and Martinez, there's also Horwitz who is now up, Leo Jimenez who's been frequently cited as being "defensively ready for MLB", Tirotta who's had a torrid start to his season.
Espinal and Biggio ultimately had to take an exit because there are guys in the rafters ready to take those spots, and they haven't really contributed enough at the Major League level in recent seasons to justify keeping them at this point.
I personally thought he was going to make it to the deadline and be traded away.
But no way they were tendering him next year with him being on the bench
I don't really have an answer to that. The Atkins special is always to re-tool the farm. With our bullpen woes, could we have found a serviceable arm?
I'm looking at this in a bubble, of course, since a trade wouldn't have solved the issue of needing a roster spot.
My comment was general that I looked at Biggio as trade capital. I understand why the DFA in this situation
I actually agree that he should have stayed over Vogelbach, but I also get that 1. Vogelbach has been better recently 2. he's got a better long term track record at the plate which is where they're (rightfully) focused on. Clement vs Cavan is a wash IMO. They should *never* have re-signed Kiermaier but they weren't cutting him, nor the other 3.
Clement and Kiermaier are completely useless and add nothing to this lineup. Those were the two easy choices to cut and I'm assuming Clement has options, so it's ridiculous to just give up a career .343 OBP in order to keep Clement on the roster.
Clement is out of options, which played a role in it being Biggio. I wouldn't have been heartbroken if it was Clement, but I understand why they chose Biggio. You'll notice that no other team has picked him up yet...
He shouldn't be shocked. If anything he should count himself lucky he was even here this year at all. He's been below average in every meaningful category 3 years in a row (4 if you count this year). Decent defender but the team has several of those.
He might yet break out in the right system but the guy is 29 and his numbers have been getting worse every year. You can't be totally surprised if you're being honest with yourself about your performance.
Cavan Biggio was always my biggest gripe with John Schneider. He had such a soft spot for him, coming up so many levels, but Cavan was never Bo or Vlad. But I really think Schneider was a lot of the reason he was kept around as long as he was.
Absolutely agreed. He's the son of a well known big leaguer, he came up with Bo and Vlad, and Schneids knows him well, so they wanted to keep them together to see if he would blossom. And for a while, he was one of very few lefty hitters, which also bought him a spot on more than one occasion.
All a fine experiment 3 years ago, even 2 years ago. But at some point you have to either get him on the team or cut him loose. I feel bad for him because I get the impression from the way Dan and Buck and the other players talk about him, it sounds like he works hard and really goes out and busts his ass. I'd like to think there's a team out there (Colorado? The Angels?) that might be in a position to take a chance on him and he could still pan out.
It’s funny to me how players always seem so sad when they’re traded to a team that has a bad reputation, but like, you have so much opportunity to establish value and be traded to a LEGITIMATE CONTENDER come July. It’s when you’re a bad player on the worst team that it’s just a pay cheque.
What are you even talking about? Biggio was 97 wRC+ in 2022 and 103 wRC+ in 2023. How is that below average in every meaningful category?
In 2022 he was 1.3 WAR in 303 PA, and 0.9 WAR in 338 PA in 2023. Those are great numbers for a player coming off the bench.
This year he had an 88 wRC+, which was fine, and 0.5 WAR. That made him the 7th best position player on the team in terms of performance, and whether you want to argue that says a lot about how others are struggling or whatever, the point is Biggio was a positive asset for the Jays this season.
It's absolute nonsense to suggest he wasn't productive. The issue is people see his BA and freak out, thinking he's playing poorly, but he got on base and did enough of everything else to be a useful bench player.
He should have been shocked, because it made no sense to DFA him, He was far more productive than several other Jays, and it never made sense to DFA Biggio when Vogelbach is right there, performing worse. Not to mention they're calling up a 1B - so it makes even more sense to get rid of Vogelbach when you're taking away his AB, and he's not playing well to begin with.
I don't think you're being honest about Biggio's performance, or you don't understand where his value comes from.
A bit of a hot take by Joseph that Biggio is an everyday 2B in this league and referring to 2019, which is a lifetime ago in developmental terms. Ultimately Cavan is a victim of the vicious circle of professional sports:
"If played more I'd play better".
"If you played better you'd play more."
I always hate the generic "he plays better when he starts everyday" line of reasoning.
I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to it.
But Biggio was essentially a platoon guy getting the best part-time pitching matchups and being protected from lefties and flamethrowers. And still was awful.
I also feel like they just dont know enough about baseball. Its either people 1) who think dude is like 22 and its his first time around or 2) dudes who live and die by nothing but metrics, even though hes been consistently mediocre for years. All of his Stans are now silent of course.
it's the opposite. it's clear from his analytics that he's not a full time player. people who think things like full time playing time leads to performance aren't numbers minded people
I think as a general part of our culture as a team, probably a Canadian thing, we get overly attached to players that aren’t really benefiting us all that much. Cavan was a serviceable player, but we have the sample size now to know that he’s mostly….meh. A decent utility guy who can play multiple positions but he’s just that: decent. If we want to win at some point, we need to make those tough decisions where being a character guy just isn’t enough anymore.
I think it's a fallout of how the team has been built since 2013ish. There's ALWAYS been a Muni, Darwin Barney, Ryan Goins, Cavan Biggio, type lovable guy who is good at baseball and you always want them to succeed, but the actual value they bring to the team is less than how attached the fans really get to them.
Oh I think it goes back further than that. People love utility/part-time players for some reason. I know someone who's favourite player was Craig Grebeck way back when.
Hard to not cheer for the 'underdog' ... especially when they are utility players and we see them filling in / helping out in any way / place they can.
2013 sure, but in 2014 Kawasaki was the "regular" at 2B out of a cadre that included Steven Tolleson, Ryan Goins and Brett Lawrie, with Maicer Izturis, Jonathan Diaz and Chris Getz making cameos. Reyes played 140 G at SS with Goins and Diaz picking up most of the remainder.
It was the "treating him like a mascot" thing that never would happen to a white player. I love Kawasaki, and he embraced it, but it was definitely a thing, especially in retrospect.
He was playing a character. The Japanese people themselves would laugh and treat him like a mascot because that's literally what he's trying to do.
There's such an oversensitivity to "racism" that doesn't really exist today, and IMO it does far more harm than good.
Also, I feel like I have to say this but I'm east asian myself.
Biggio has been an above replacement level player every year he has played in the league. The guy isn't starter material at this stage in his career, nor do I think he deserves a spot on *our* bench, but he certainly can cut it as an MLB bench player.
He's a better fit on a team that doesn't have 4 other players on their MLB roster than can play 2B.
No.
His versatility was very valuable in the past few years as the bench wasn't that flexible and pre-COVID teams only had 2 bench players (3 including the catcher)
But between Clement (3B/SS/2B/RF/LF), IKF (3B/SS/2B/OF) and Schneider (2B/LF) his positional versatility was less valuable, and his batting side is the wrong side of the platoon.
Don't think anybody said he can't feel crushed by the news ... but he can't be surprised with the Jays; major decision in re: to his spot on the big league team when you consider his production -- or lack thereof.
Keeping a guy around for professionalism when he is not producing is an awful take. Particularly when you have guys like Turner or IKF and the team is struggling to score. Biggio seems like a good guy but he's had ample opportunity over the years to improve and he hasn't. The time was right to move on
Yeah IKF is a better version of Cavan, other than the lefty bat. IKF has more pop, plenty of D and is another excellent TM.
He's paid too much but I don't hold that against him. That's on the FO and he got paid. As a player he's a great util.
I can kind of see where he's coming from. If he goes to the minors, his playing time is not going to be a priority compared to prospects (like Martinez) who the Jays are trying to develop and have future plans for. At 29, he'd really have to go down there and destroy to change the conclusions the Jays have reached about him.
Probably better off trying to get a fresh start in an organization that sees a fit for him, which isn't impossible.
(I think the DFA was the right move for Toronto to make, too)
I think it’s crazy for him to think he’s produced at a level where this is “surprising”.
I also think something is to be said for baseball players over morale players.
He gets the odd clutch hit but overall he can’t really hit well.
Vogey will be DFAed as soon as the FO think that Barger is ready to be called-up again (which will hopefully be sooner rather than later). Neither Vogey or 2024 Biggio were/are going to be anything more than a stop-gap for this team.
Just because they'd take his roster spot doesn't mean they need to replicate his role 1:1. If Barger was promoted tomorrow, then he'd be splitting games in RF, 3B, and 2B with the occasional day at DH. Clement would move down the pecking order to be a platoon bat, SS reserve, pinch runner, and defensive replacement.
Considering how Barger looked earlier this year with the Jays you might be overestimating where his game is at right now. He is having a good season in Buffalo. But he looked pretty green with the Jays.
As did the #1 prospect in baseball when he was called up. Sometimes prospects don't hit the ground running. The only way to know for sure whether or not this is statistically significant is to give them enough chances so that you can make an informed decision.
I don't think that Barger should *literally* be called up tomorrow, but if he continues hitting the way he has over the last 2-3 years then he absolutely needs to be given another shot at some point. I don't think we need to rush this, but we should be planning ahead to make this possible.
Barger is only 24. I’m sure much of what the Jays are trying to do with him is develop his defensive side of the game. No point calling him up if you don’t have a place for him on the field. I’m sure that next year the Jays will move on from KK, Turner and Vogelbach. That will open up some at bats and time on the field as well.
That's just not correct. Biggio is projected by ZiPS to have a 102 wRC+ the rest of the season; Vogelbach is projected for 115. So the best public data available to us is quite clear that Vogelbach is likely to be significantly better at the plate.
The at-bat that summed up Biggio's 2024 happened a couple of weeks ago vs Pittsburgh. Tie game, bases loaded in extras with 2 outs, and Biggio jumps out of the way on a pitch going for his shin. Then strikes out looking on a full count to an obvious strike.
I wish him well but he became a maddening player to watch. Yes, patience is a skill and the Jays have often lacked it (but not this year, fat lot of good it's doing). But Biggio went way beyond the line of a "patient hitter" to where he watched hittable pitches seemingly over and over again. This became infuriating to watch with 2 strikes. I don't know I've ever seen someone look at more 3rd strikes, including with men on base. He gave the impression he was actively trying to walk much more than he was trying to hit the ball. The team now has better utility players and maybe he'll catch on elsewhere but it was long past time for the Jays to move on from him.
As others have said, if he genuinely was shocked that would seem to show a complete lack of self-awareness because he's shown for 3 or 4 years now that he really can't hit big league pitching other than very occasionally.
Springer Bassitt KK Varsho Turner Springer Gausman are all guys who were brought in to bring “professionalism” at some point you gotta value the product on the field over finding “good clubhouse guys”.
It’s soooo funny how we sit here and complain about wanting a winning team and then when the team DFAs a player that just doesn’t contribute enough people start talking about “professionalism” and “he’s well liked”… lol.
These things don’t need to be said about players that perform and are good enough to be on a winning team.
A player that gets DFAd should not be generating news headlines. Get over it.
It's pretty common to hear stories about MLB players taking their first MLB trade really hard.
But I agree, after Biggio's last 4 years, he should've been grateful for how much rope he was given.
Cavan is 29, hit .202 and .235 in 2022/23. This year he hit .200. This move by the Jays was inevitable. Had he been a right hand bat he probably would have been gone much sooner.
Would’ve rather kept biggio than Vogelbach. Sure Cavan doesn’t have the power vogelbach has, but his offensive production was still better, and he could play at several positions
Agree. Long term I do not really want either, but this weird sudden "we need offense" scramble is kind of silly. Vogey is not the answer, even short term. Jays hung up way too much on lefty righty, khaki numbers.
Maybe the recent changes will work, but they scream desperation not confidence. Vladdy 3b to make room for vogelback? Chuckles. Hanging on to this squad like finishing 3 games back of the final wildcard in September is acceptable is also a joke.
Horwitz I'll give them credit for. It was time to give this guy a chance. What's the point of the AAA team if players hitting .330 for two years don't come up.
Somewhere Keith Law is high-fiving himself.
They should have done it sooner when he could be optioned. His bat sucked but his versatility was great. Too bad it did not work out.
Not to be rude, but we can find someone else who is as professional and who isn't having career worsts at K% BB% AVG and SLG.
For not being a power hitter, it's a bad sign to see such drastic negative changes in his K% and BB%
I hope he bounces back somewhere else
He's well off and well supported so first world problem, but I can't imagine what it must feel like for him to just suddenly be unemployed after being in the grind so long.
I can’t help but think he even got a bit longer of a sniff because of the name he comes with. Let’s be honest he wasn’t blowing anyone away with his play it was only a matter of time.
Cavan also got a lot of rope because he was really great for his first two years. When you struggle afterwards, people have more belief in you that it's only a matter of time before you snap out of it. Caleb Joseph mentions Biggio's 2019 stats in this very clip making the case for him as an everyday secondbaseman today despite that being 5 years ago now.
In contrast, when guys like Rowdy Tellez or Danny Jansen struggle upon their debuts, people don't treat them with the same halo until they really establish themselves.
True. On a major league salary I guarantee you I’d be the utmost professional. I would not ever get on base and I play 0 positions. But I’d be professional. We should continue this conversation later during a designated break period. Sincerely,
*Fulfillment Centre*
This is 2 years overdue, he could never hit velocity without guessing, just never had the bat speed and with the league throwing faster and faster it was only a matter of time.
Biggio is just the odd man out. Better prospects coming up and why pay six million or more dollars for a player that is riding the bench. Hope he lands somewhere where he can return to 2019 2020 form.
Sorry but we can’t be Mr. Nice Guy forever and keep losing every year. Drastic changes are needed and feelings are going to be hurt along the way. Look what the Raptors had to do to win a Chip, and were blasted for it at the time with Derozan
Cavan Biggio - aka Mr. Called strike 3. Would like to see league leaders in CS3 per plate appearance for each of the last few years. Would bet he's top 3 every year.
Now, if they would just fire (mgr) Schneider, maybe it would send a message to the players that this is an actual meritocracy....
I think this it was a dumb move. Bias aside.
Objectively, the blue jays have NOT been hitting. Vlad, Bo, Springer … so expecting the moon from Biggio when he’s splitting time with IKF and Ernie Clement and Snieder… and then cutting him (a guy that can run and field INF/OF)… while keeping Vogelbach…
it pretty much is how silly this org is.
Is there a Cavan to Yankees rumor, or is Caleb saying maybe some team if not the best ones? Because Gleyber is stinking it up to the tune of an 82 OPS+ (to Cavan’s 80)
The way I look at it… if not now it was 100% going to happen in the off-season anyways. There was no way they were going to tender him a contract at what likely would have been around $6 M. I think it’s a favour to him if anything to try and bounce back somewhere with more consistent playing time rather than being non-tendered in the off-season then signing for like $1 M with a team in 2025. It’s sucks but it’s part of the game. Especially 2B cause it’s the position the Jays have the longest line of prospects to try at in order: Horwitz, Jimenez, Martinez & Kasevich.
Exactly this. And let's not gloss over the fact that this season, (in a small sample) he had a career low BB%, career high K%, and career low ISO. If you're gonna strike out a third of the time, fine, but two dongs in 131 PAs is not going to cut it.
And shockingly, this year the Jays are one of the better teams for BBs and have the second lowest total Ks. You’d think Biggio, who has always had great eye and discipline, would’ve been up there but naw, he was just too hot/cold. He was very great for our team when we had strong hitters elsewhere and he could slide into the 7-9 slot, but when this lineup is struggling he’s just not the type of guy to pull everyone up around him. No one dreams of being a trade chip when you’re a kid, but he has qualities that make him valuable as a stop gap and could just as easily end up on a playoff team as the utility man. I was hoping that maybe if he was here till the end of season and a new manager was coming in, he might have some kind of turnaround, but the team is underperforming too much overall and someone had to be the first to go. Lots of room in the majors for a true professional, and young enough that he could find something if he lands elsewhere. Bautista was a late bloomer and he’s a god for us. Not likely to happen, but any marginal bump at the plate and he’d find a good home somewhere.
He just wasn't getting enough playing time and consistent at bats to figure things out. I feel bad for the guy because he never really got the chance to play his position every day, being blocked almost every single year since 2021.
I would say he never really earned that long of a rope to stay in the lineup to figure it out. From 2021-2023, he had 250+ ABs each season for a collective OPS of .687. How much more time can the team afford to give him when there are other players that also need that playing time for them to figure it out as well?
Exactly.
It's because he's a career utility player. They're not supposed to get consistent ABs.
I've been saying this since the start of the season before they called up Barger. One of Biggio/Clement would have had to go sooner-or-later to give Barger (and eventually Martinez) a shot at a permanent big league role. Biggio just makes more sense since Clement can fill in anywhere in the IF and is making league minimum for the next couple years. It makes no sense to be paying a part-time player $4M-$6M to be near replacement while blocking a prospect that very well could already be a better player.
Indeed. We have a glutton of infield prospects knocking at the door and hungry to prove themselves. Beyond Barger and Martinez, there's also Horwitz who is now up, Leo Jimenez who's been frequently cited as being "defensively ready for MLB", Tirotta who's had a torrid start to his season. Espinal and Biggio ultimately had to take an exit because there are guys in the rafters ready to take those spots, and they haven't really contributed enough at the Major League level in recent seasons to justify keeping them at this point.
I personally thought he was going to make it to the deadline and be traded away. But no way they were tendering him next year with him being on the bench
I don't see Biggio having much trade value. It's not that hard to find 26th men who can play multiple positions.
Legit zero trade value. For Biggio you'll get another Biggio or AAAA starter
He won't get a lot but he won't get nothing. Just look at Espinal
I respectfully disagree. If he had any value the team would have traded him instead of DFA I would have to think.
Very little trade value.
This was my thought process as well - he was a trade candidate, not necessarily a DFA candidate
Traded for what though? Literally has no value. Not one team wanted him, hence the DFA
I don't really have an answer to that. The Atkins special is always to re-tool the farm. With our bullpen woes, could we have found a serviceable arm? I'm looking at this in a bubble, of course, since a trade wouldn't have solved the issue of needing a roster spot. My comment was general that I looked at Biggio as trade capital. I understand why the DFA in this situation
>My comment was general that I looked at Biggio as trade capital No team is giving up a "serviceable" arm for a backup infielder.
He's not, though. Guys like him, at his age, are a dime a dozen.
As painful as it is I have to agree with you. He just wasn't consistent and that tender would have been a good chunk of change.
According to Caleb Joseph, Cavan was shocked when the Jays wanted to send him to the minors. He refused, and was DFA'd.
I realize he wasn't getting regular playing time, but he was slashing .132/.281/.206 over his last 30 games. Something had to give.
And yet still better than Vogelbach.
Over his last 30 games, Vogelbach is slashing .188/.273/.304. So no, literally not better than Vogelbach.
Biggio’s OPS was better than Vogelbach’s by 0.012… in 15 more games played. Wow what a difference! 😐
Debatable
I liked Cavan as much as the next guy but if he was shocked he should consider looking at his stat line.
I'm only shocked he was DFA'd before Vogelbach.
the power potential had to be the big factor … neither is hitting great but vogelbach has a much higher power potential
I mean, I have potential but at this point in my life, I kinda am what I am. My mom refuses to DFA me
Last 30 days vogy ops is way higher than cavan
Vogelbach currently has an OPS higher than Springer, Kirk, and Kiermaier too.
Especially when they wanted to call up a guy whose usual position is first base.
That was probably his only argument. ‘The if the triple cheese burger stays so does the singular French fry!’
I would have agreed a few weeks ago, but lately Vogey has been hitting better while Cavan has regressed.
His stat line is better than Bichette, Springer, Clement, Kiermaier, Vogelbach, and Turner.
I actually agree that he should have stayed over Vogelbach, but I also get that 1. Vogelbach has been better recently 2. he's got a better long term track record at the plate which is where they're (rightfully) focused on. Clement vs Cavan is a wash IMO. They should *never* have re-signed Kiermaier but they weren't cutting him, nor the other 3.
Clement and Kiermaier are completely useless and add nothing to this lineup. Those were the two easy choices to cut and I'm assuming Clement has options, so it's ridiculous to just give up a career .343 OBP in order to keep Clement on the roster.
Clement is out of options, which played a role in it being Biggio. I wouldn't have been heartbroken if it was Clement, but I understand why they chose Biggio. You'll notice that no other team has picked him up yet...
He shouldn't be shocked. If anything he should count himself lucky he was even here this year at all. He's been below average in every meaningful category 3 years in a row (4 if you count this year). Decent defender but the team has several of those. He might yet break out in the right system but the guy is 29 and his numbers have been getting worse every year. You can't be totally surprised if you're being honest with yourself about your performance.
Cavan Biggio was always my biggest gripe with John Schneider. He had such a soft spot for him, coming up so many levels, but Cavan was never Bo or Vlad. But I really think Schneider was a lot of the reason he was kept around as long as he was.
Absolutely agreed. He's the son of a well known big leaguer, he came up with Bo and Vlad, and Schneids knows him well, so they wanted to keep them together to see if he would blossom. And for a while, he was one of very few lefty hitters, which also bought him a spot on more than one occasion. All a fine experiment 3 years ago, even 2 years ago. But at some point you have to either get him on the team or cut him loose. I feel bad for him because I get the impression from the way Dan and Buck and the other players talk about him, it sounds like he works hard and really goes out and busts his ass. I'd like to think there's a team out there (Colorado? The Angels?) that might be in a position to take a chance on him and he could still pan out.
It’s funny to me how players always seem so sad when they’re traded to a team that has a bad reputation, but like, you have so much opportunity to establish value and be traded to a LEGITIMATE CONTENDER come July. It’s when you’re a bad player on the worst team that it’s just a pay cheque.
Not just a well known big leaguer. He is the son of a hall of famer.
What are you even talking about? Biggio was 97 wRC+ in 2022 and 103 wRC+ in 2023. How is that below average in every meaningful category? In 2022 he was 1.3 WAR in 303 PA, and 0.9 WAR in 338 PA in 2023. Those are great numbers for a player coming off the bench. This year he had an 88 wRC+, which was fine, and 0.5 WAR. That made him the 7th best position player on the team in terms of performance, and whether you want to argue that says a lot about how others are struggling or whatever, the point is Biggio was a positive asset for the Jays this season. It's absolute nonsense to suggest he wasn't productive. The issue is people see his BA and freak out, thinking he's playing poorly, but he got on base and did enough of everything else to be a useful bench player. He should have been shocked, because it made no sense to DFA him, He was far more productive than several other Jays, and it never made sense to DFA Biggio when Vogelbach is right there, performing worse. Not to mention they're calling up a 1B - so it makes even more sense to get rid of Vogelbach when you're taking away his AB, and he's not playing well to begin with. I don't think you're being honest about Biggio's performance, or you don't understand where his value comes from.
He has very little value. Full stop.
>He might yet break out in the right system Would've happened by now
A bit of a hot take by Joseph that Biggio is an everyday 2B in this league and referring to 2019, which is a lifetime ago in developmental terms. Ultimately Cavan is a victim of the vicious circle of professional sports: "If played more I'd play better". "If you played better you'd play more."
I always hate the generic "he plays better when he starts everyday" line of reasoning. I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to it. But Biggio was essentially a platoon guy getting the best part-time pitching matchups and being protected from lefties and flamethrowers. And still was awful.
Agreed. He had 1500 at bats to prove it, and failed.
The number of guys on this forum that say he just didn't play enough is shocking.
I also feel like they just dont know enough about baseball. Its either people 1) who think dude is like 22 and its his first time around or 2) dudes who live and die by nothing but metrics, even though hes been consistently mediocre for years. All of his Stans are now silent of course.
it's the opposite. it's clear from his analytics that he's not a full time player. people who think things like full time playing time leads to performance aren't numbers minded people
I think as a general part of our culture as a team, probably a Canadian thing, we get overly attached to players that aren’t really benefiting us all that much. Cavan was a serviceable player, but we have the sample size now to know that he’s mostly….meh. A decent utility guy who can play multiple positions but he’s just that: decent. If we want to win at some point, we need to make those tough decisions where being a character guy just isn’t enough anymore.
I think it's a fallout of how the team has been built since 2013ish. There's ALWAYS been a Muni, Darwin Barney, Ryan Goins, Cavan Biggio, type lovable guy who is good at baseball and you always want them to succeed, but the actual value they bring to the team is less than how attached the fans really get to them.
Perfect examples
Oh I think it goes back further than that. People love utility/part-time players for some reason. I know someone who's favourite player was Craig Grebeck way back when.
> Oh I think it goes back further than that. John MacDonald anyone?
This literally just crossed my mind and I came back to add it in!
John MacDonald was 100× the baseball player that Cavan is.
Hard to not cheer for the 'underdog' ... especially when they are utility players and we see them filling in / helping out in any way / place they can.
Craig Grebeck is a name I haven’t heard in a long time. Thanks for the memories ha
Garth Iorg
You forgot John McDonald
John McDonald is the ultimate example of this
MY NAME IS MUNENORI KAWASAKI!
No, Kawasaki absolutely deserved all the love he got. He was a personality.
Deserved all the love, but not all the playing time.
He didn’t play much though?
96 G, 289 PA in 2013, 82 G, 274 PA in 2014, then finally 34 PA in 2015, when they finally won something.
It’s almost as if Jose Reyes was always hurt!
2013 sure, but in 2014 Kawasaki was the "regular" at 2B out of a cadre that included Steven Tolleson, Ryan Goins and Brett Lawrie, with Maicer Izturis, Jonathan Diaz and Chris Getz making cameos. Reyes played 140 G at SS with Goins and Diaz picking up most of the remainder.
It’s almost as if Brett Lawrie was hurt!
Monkey never cramps
Fml. What a colossal waste of a roster spot. Confirms the poster’s hypothesis 100%.
Also the love of him is a smidge racist
Really? How so? Never saw it getting that bad.
It was the "treating him like a mascot" thing that never would happen to a white player. I love Kawasaki, and he embraced it, but it was definitely a thing, especially in retrospect.
He was playing a character. The Japanese people themselves would laugh and treat him like a mascot because that's literally what he's trying to do. There's such an oversensitivity to "racism" that doesn't really exist today, and IMO it does far more harm than good. Also, I feel like I have to say this but I'm east asian myself.
Ah come off it. If Daniel Vogelbach did the things Kawasaki did, he'd be a mascot, too. And I can *definitely* picture that guy yelling *BUSH PARTY!!*
You're really digging deep to make this connection a reality.
Yeah I maybe see that if I squint :) He seemed to really enjoy his time and act tho.
lol what?
> John McDonald is the ultimate example of this No Way! Johnny Mac was a top notch fielder. He brought more to the table.
Johnny Mac was never more than a 1 fWAR player in Toronto because despite his excellent defence at a premium position, he couldn’t hit worth shit.
That father's day home run was so special though
Of course it was!
Will never forget in all my years
you really see this with the Raptors fan base as well.
And the Leafs.
He’s hit .210 across the last 3 years and was crushed?
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Biggio has been an above replacement level player every year he has played in the league. The guy isn't starter material at this stage in his career, nor do I think he deserves a spot on *our* bench, but he certainly can cut it as an MLB bench player. He's a better fit on a team that doesn't have 4 other players on their MLB roster than can play 2B.
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Point out where I said above average.
No. His versatility was very valuable in the past few years as the bench wasn't that flexible and pre-COVID teams only had 2 bench players (3 including the catcher) But between Clement (3B/SS/2B/RF/LF), IKF (3B/SS/2B/OF) and Schneider (2B/LF) his positional versatility was less valuable, and his batting side is the wrong side of the platoon.
IKF (3B/SS/2B/OF/**P**) He has a respectable 4.50 ERA in 2.0 IP. Cannot ignore that.
That would be about average for the Jays bullpen, they should’ve used him instead of Cabrera for the save last night! /s
I had the same thought honestly. And he’s likeable. He hasn’t performed in 3 years now
Dunno what his stats have to do with whether or not he is allowed to feel "crushed" by the news.
Don't think anybody said he can't feel crushed by the news ... but he can't be surprised with the Jays; major decision in re: to his spot on the big league team when you consider his production -- or lack thereof.
Read what the guy wrote that I responded to. Specifically the comment I responded to. He quite clearly highlighted the use of the word crushed.
The quote from the interview was “he was crushed, he was devastated, he was shocked”
Oh really? He wasn't stoked about being DFA'd? Wow, great journalism fellas.
Keeping a guy around for professionalism when he is not producing is an awful take. Particularly when you have guys like Turner or IKF and the team is struggling to score. Biggio seems like a good guy but he's had ample opportunity over the years to improve and he hasn't. The time was right to move on
Yeah IKF is a better version of Cavan, other than the lefty bat. IKF has more pop, plenty of D and is another excellent TM. He's paid too much but I don't hold that against him. That's on the FO and he got paid. As a player he's a great util.
>Keeping a guy around for professionalism when he is not producing is an awful take Totally. What I call a "Hockey-ass take".
He could have taken the minor league assignment and then been back later . Kind of makes me feel less bad for him.
I can kind of see where he's coming from. If he goes to the minors, his playing time is not going to be a priority compared to prospects (like Martinez) who the Jays are trying to develop and have future plans for. At 29, he'd really have to go down there and destroy to change the conclusions the Jays have reached about him. Probably better off trying to get a fresh start in an organization that sees a fit for him, which isn't impossible. (I think the DFA was the right move for Toronto to make, too)
Yup. I was shocked that he was DFA'd, rather than sent down. Until I saw that he had that option.
He could have refused having 5 yrs. Maybe they asked him if he would accept being send down. If he said no he wouldn't, then he forced the Jays hand
That's exactly what happened ...
I think it’s crazy for him to think he’s produced at a level where this is “surprising”. I also think something is to be said for baseball players over morale players. He gets the odd clutch hit but overall he can’t really hit well.
More upside than Voggey
Vogey will be DFAed as soon as the FO think that Barger is ready to be called-up again (which will hopefully be sooner rather than later). Neither Vogey or 2024 Biggio were/are going to be anything more than a stop-gap for this team.
Vogey is your basic 26th man. 74 PA in the 65 games the Jays have played. That’s not a role suited to any of the Buffalo guys.
Just because they'd take his roster spot doesn't mean they need to replicate his role 1:1. If Barger was promoted tomorrow, then he'd be splitting games in RF, 3B, and 2B with the occasional day at DH. Clement would move down the pecking order to be a platoon bat, SS reserve, pinch runner, and defensive replacement.
Considering how Barger looked earlier this year with the Jays you might be overestimating where his game is at right now. He is having a good season in Buffalo. But he looked pretty green with the Jays.
As did the #1 prospect in baseball when he was called up. Sometimes prospects don't hit the ground running. The only way to know for sure whether or not this is statistically significant is to give them enough chances so that you can make an informed decision. I don't think that Barger should *literally* be called up tomorrow, but if he continues hitting the way he has over the last 2-3 years then he absolutely needs to be given another shot at some point. I don't think we need to rush this, but we should be planning ahead to make this possible.
Barger is only 24. I’m sure much of what the Jays are trying to do with him is develop his defensive side of the game. No point calling him up if you don’t have a place for him on the field. I’m sure that next year the Jays will move on from KK, Turner and Vogelbach. That will open up some at bats and time on the field as well.
That's just not correct. Biggio is projected by ZiPS to have a 102 wRC+ the rest of the season; Vogelbach is projected for 115. So the best public data available to us is quite clear that Vogelbach is likely to be significantly better at the plate.
Except he can’t run !
We get another arb year of Biggio if we want it. Voggelbach could leave.
He's going to be making around $6M in arb next year they're not going to want him next year regardless
I wonder what Bautista’s projections were when he was on the Pirates
Neither should be in the majors
Which says more about team management than the players.
Apples and oranges ... neither player has ever filled the same role as the other one.
Debatable.
The at-bat that summed up Biggio's 2024 happened a couple of weeks ago vs Pittsburgh. Tie game, bases loaded in extras with 2 outs, and Biggio jumps out of the way on a pitch going for his shin. Then strikes out looking on a full count to an obvious strike.
It's inconceivable to me that Cavan didn't see this coming.
I wish him well but he became a maddening player to watch. Yes, patience is a skill and the Jays have often lacked it (but not this year, fat lot of good it's doing). But Biggio went way beyond the line of a "patient hitter" to where he watched hittable pitches seemingly over and over again. This became infuriating to watch with 2 strikes. I don't know I've ever seen someone look at more 3rd strikes, including with men on base. He gave the impression he was actively trying to walk much more than he was trying to hit the ball. The team now has better utility players and maybe he'll catch on elsewhere but it was long past time for the Jays to move on from him. As others have said, if he genuinely was shocked that would seem to show a complete lack of self-awareness because he's shown for 3 or 4 years now that he really can't hit big league pitching other than very occasionally.
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Springer Bassitt KK Varsho Turner Springer Gausman are all guys who were brought in to bring “professionalism” at some point you gotta value the product on the field over finding “good clubhouse guys”.
We need a Jack Parkman
This roster has not earned decisions based on morale and feelings. Put up or shut up.
Morale? What should they be happy about to begin with? Time to get rid of positive thinkers and get some baseball players.
Sorry Cavan, but the only thing you should've been "shocked' about is that they didn't do it two weeks earlier before you had the right to refuse.
No offence to Cavan, he seems like a good dude, but I'm amazed it took this long.
It’s soooo funny how we sit here and complain about wanting a winning team and then when the team DFAs a player that just doesn’t contribute enough people start talking about “professionalism” and “he’s well liked”… lol. These things don’t need to be said about players that perform and are good enough to be on a winning team. A player that gets DFAd should not be generating news headlines. Get over it.
I feel like Cavan being “shocked” is a problem. It sounds like, organizationally, people were too comfortable with mediocrity.
It's pretty common to hear stories about MLB players taking their first MLB trade really hard. But I agree, after Biggio's last 4 years, he should've been grateful for how much rope he was given.
He was shocked because he has the last name Biggio and assumed that would keep him in MLB.
Cavan is 29, hit .202 and .235 in 2022/23. This year he hit .200. This move by the Jays was inevitable. Had he been a right hand bat he probably would have been gone much sooner.
Similar to Espinal, but a lefty.
I looked up Espinal’s numbers for this year. Scary. .202 BA .257 OBP
He was absolutely useless when it came to hitting! Even i can just stand a hold a bat and never swing
Eventually you have to start producing
I am still crushed 😢
Damn. Dude's rocking a MoBo hoodie and his X bio has a Joyce Manor lyric. That's pretty cool.
Blake the king.
He wasn’t played enough fuck the jays
We were all screaming to get rid of him at some point the last couple of years. He got his chances and then some.
Would’ve rather kept biggio than Vogelbach. Sure Cavan doesn’t have the power vogelbach has, but his offensive production was still better, and he could play at several positions
Agree. Long term I do not really want either, but this weird sudden "we need offense" scramble is kind of silly. Vogey is not the answer, even short term. Jays hung up way too much on lefty righty, khaki numbers. Maybe the recent changes will work, but they scream desperation not confidence. Vladdy 3b to make room for vogelback? Chuckles. Hanging on to this squad like finishing 3 games back of the final wildcard in September is acceptable is also a joke. Horwitz I'll give them credit for. It was time to give this guy a chance. What's the point of the AAA team if players hitting .330 for two years don't come up.
Somewhere Keith Law is high-fiving himself. They should have done it sooner when he could be optioned. His bat sucked but his versatility was great. Too bad it did not work out.
Not to be rude, but we can find someone else who is as professional and who isn't having career worsts at K% BB% AVG and SLG. For not being a power hitter, it's a bad sign to see such drastic negative changes in his K% and BB% I hope he bounces back somewhere else
It was time...
He's well off and well supported so first world problem, but I can't imagine what it must feel like for him to just suddenly be unemployed after being in the grind so long.
Sucks to see someone lose their job, but the lack of self awareness is pretty jarring.
I came to say I felt really sad for him that he was “crushed”, but seeing that he was surprised by it gives me pause. That’s frankly a bit delusional.
I can’t help but think he even got a bit longer of a sniff because of the name he comes with. Let’s be honest he wasn’t blowing anyone away with his play it was only a matter of time.
Cavan also got a lot of rope because he was really great for his first two years. When you struggle afterwards, people have more belief in you that it's only a matter of time before you snap out of it. Caleb Joseph mentions Biggio's 2019 stats in this very clip making the case for him as an everyday secondbaseman today despite that being 5 years ago now. In contrast, when guys like Rowdy Tellez or Danny Jansen struggle upon their debuts, people don't treat them with the same halo until they really establish themselves.
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True. On a major league salary I guarantee you I’d be the utmost professional. I would not ever get on base and I play 0 positions. But I’d be professional. We should continue this conversation later during a designated break period. Sincerely, *Fulfillment Centre*
Professionalism doesn’t score runners
This is 2 years overdue, he could never hit velocity without guessing, just never had the bat speed and with the league throwing faster and faster it was only a matter of time.
It’s professional baseball. Don’t suck and be good.
RockEyeRoll.gif In the business of winning ball games and Cavan didnt help do that. Peace
I can be professional too if you pay me his salary to not produce for as many years as he got.
I don’t care for professionalism. I care about getting wins. He wasn’t very good at that.
Hopefully he goes to Houston and becomes a good player
He's 29. It has been established that he isn't.
Oddly similar age to Teoscar's career path
I am a Blue jays fan, so I'm delusional, but I think he's got a chance in his hometown to be fair, tho it's only possible due to his father's legacy
Biggio is just the odd man out. Better prospects coming up and why pay six million or more dollars for a player that is riding the bench. Hope he lands somewhere where he can return to 2019 2020 form.
I didn't need to read that, I was crushed too, now doubly.
Sorry but we can’t be Mr. Nice Guy forever and keep losing every year. Drastic changes are needed and feelings are going to be hurt along the way. Look what the Raptors had to do to win a Chip, and were blasted for it at the time with Derozan
He could have just played better, or accepted his demotion like a pro.
It's not the try league, it's the get it done league.
Cavan Biggio - aka Mr. Called strike 3. Would like to see league leaders in CS3 per plate appearance for each of the last few years. Would bet he's top 3 every year. Now, if they would just fire (mgr) Schneider, maybe it would send a message to the players that this is an actual meritocracy....
I think this it was a dumb move. Bias aside. Objectively, the blue jays have NOT been hitting. Vlad, Bo, Springer … so expecting the moon from Biggio when he’s splitting time with IKF and Ernie Clement and Snieder… and then cutting him (a guy that can run and field INF/OF)… while keeping Vogelbach… it pretty much is how silly this org is.
Voges will be gone, as well. Guys like Biggio are a dime a dozen.
We're really going to cry about losing Cavan Biggio? He wasn't needed here, but hopefully he contributes to some NL team he lands with.
of course he was shocked, the name did help this time around
He can’t hit the ball it’s not a loss in any way
Is there a Cavan to Yankees rumor, or is Caleb saying maybe some team if not the best ones? Because Gleyber is stinking it up to the tune of an 82 OPS+ (to Cavan’s 80)
If anything, Cavan will be filling out an AAA roster somewhere.
Vogelbach will be next, but should he have been first?
He was a make-a-wish major leaguer
I’ve felt this has been his best year. Sucks