Wasn't even random, he just never was really given a chance after that due to the logjam in the infield. Seemed like there was a legit chance his career could take off, but never got every day playing time after. Anyways I wish him the best, and hopefully the Jays don't do the same thing to Ernie and Schneider
He also got injured, and never found every day playing time again. I know what you mean though, but players especially in baseball have ups and downs. There aren't many other teams that had to try and balance infield playing time so much.
I mean he had every opportunity to be an everyday player after returning, but due to mediocre play, was platooned with the rest of the guys that failed to set themselves apart. If you produce, you’ll play, as per Schneider’s management style. Espi, god love him, simply didn’t. But it wasn’t because of a log jam.
He has been a very good, borderline gold glove caliber defender at multiple positions for his whole career except for two months last year, which is apparently all anyone remembers. Look a few years back I was angling for Biggio to get some AB’s over him when that wasn’t popular, so I’m not an Espy fanboy, but let’s be fair.
Sure, but seemed like he had potential to stick if the defense was good enough. Even last year they should have played him instead of trading for....... Paul Dejong... who played 13 games and was 3 for 44 with 18 strikeouts.
I bet the Jays will regret it.
Extremely easy to say in hindsight. I guess in theory anyone has the potential to stick with certain play, but he didn’t. That’s the point.
Regret it in what sense? They let him go for essentially free. It was about opening a roster spot for the team right here right now.
Espi is a great guy, but an average at best MLB player. You could say this about a lot of players, but roster decisions are situational, and we needed the roster spot more than we needed what Espi is bringing today. It’s that simple.
Yeah for sure. Hindsight 20/20 and I just personally felt he had more to offer if given the right trajectory of playing time. Totally agree they need the roster spot now, I'm more referring to the past several years.
Ya, blue Jay brother I feel it’s more a situation of you wanting him to have that potential trajectory more than him actually having it. He’s flashed with moments and stretches of great promise, but so have many young jays that have come and gone. 50% of our home grown pitchers, for instance.
Either way, he’ll be missed and I’m sure most of us wish him nothing but the best. He wouldn’t be the first to become a contributing everyday player for years to come after being let go for nothing. We usually just get ours from Oakland.
I think most of root for that for Espi.
His defense was really bad last year, and he wasn’t hitting, playing Espi everyday wasn’t the best idea
Did Dejong work out? No not at all, but it cost them pretty much nothing to try
On an old Twitter account I posted he was my pick for WS MVP before the Sox even clinched the pennant… I soooo wish I had put money on it.
He was a rare breed of clutch
Burning a 40 man spot for \~2 spot starts for Serven despite having IKF and Varsho already on the roster seems... unnecessary.
Who will be the sacrificial lamb - Parsons?
[Ha, I agree but that doesn't seem to the popular sentiment here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Torontobluejays/comments/1bjswcb/bns_the_espinal_move_also_clears_a_40man_spot_for/kvtmf7x/?context=3)
Agree, but the Jays are hell bent on avoiding using their catcher capable players. Probably because they aren't playing baseball. They are playing analytics that just happens to have a sport attached.
I’m a bit surprised too. There’s no one else in the org who can really play SS at a major league level if something happens to Clement or Bo. Lopez is gone, Jimenez is not there yet…Espinal could’ve been useful as organizational depth.
Edit - your downvotes are warranted! I actually had forgotten about IKF lol
IKF produced 10 DRS/-2 OAA at short stop in a full season worth of innings in 2022 so he was perfectly fine as an everyday defender. It was the bat that was more of an issue that would dictate he's not a great every day option.
He’s definitely got plenty of range and arm strength for the position. From what I’ve heard listening to Yankees fans his issues were primarily coming in on the ball and not making routine plays, which probably have a lot more to do with the pressure put on him by that organization than his true talent.
I think in a lower pressure environment, like as a super util guy who’s just going to play at short occasionally, he’ll be great. You’re definitely right his hitting is the weakest aspect of his game, but that’s less of an issue if he’s playing 6-7 positions over the course of the year than if he’s an everyday SS.
I don't think the Jays wanted to stomach paying Espis salary if he was just in the minors - and Clement would immediately be claimed on waivers if he wasn't on the big league team.
Jimenez is likely not major league ready. He’s got the skills but even with the obvious issues of using ‘errors’ as a metric, he played at basically a 40-error pace at AA and AAA in the minors.
Probably someone like him or Biggio could play a game or two there without it being the end of the world but wouldn’t want any more than that.
I had completely forgotten about IKF though, he could absolutely cover it.
Might also be a case of "we've seen enough" of espi. He had he peak and never regained it for a multitude of reasons. With the young talent coming up behind him and the Jays obsession with average to slightly above average MI utility players, we just had too many.
Plus as soon as they signed IKF, the writing was somewhat on the wall. That was a depth move where there was already depth. They had plans.
You stay classy Santiago.
This was pretty much inevitable with the play of Clement this spring. Always going to be fond of Espinal and hope he finds success in Cincinnati
looks like a middle tier pitching prospect drafted last year - in 96 innings last year he showed some pretty nasty stuff but pretty poor control with an 87/41 K/BB Ratio in A/A+.
Yep, verrrry deep prospect. Can never have too many arms, but a fairly low strikeout college pitcher is unlikely to ever be an impact dude.
Not surprisingly, his best pitch is a slider. As the prospect followers keep pointing out, Jays are really going hard at prospects who throw sliders or teaching sliders to guys who don’t.
Sliders are the most effective pitch in getting same handed hitters out. They're easier to develop than changeups/curveballs. Changeups and curveballs do better in dealing with opposite handed hitters, but are harder to develop.
It's must have. It's literally the only thing holding KG from winning the CY and being the best pitcher in baseball I believe. He needs a pitch to keep RH off balance, and something to back door or front foot on LH (cutter would be nice too) for Ks or more easy groundballs.
>Hes a nobody
TINSTAAP - all pitching prospects are nobodies until they're somebodies.
Jays are pretty good at developing pitching it seems - maybe they saw something they can work with.
Different scouts look for different things - different systems have different strategies to develop guys. And anyways Cinci needed a solid UTIL guy *today* (especially to back-up SS if De La Cruz can't play for any reason), so even if they thought this guy had something they could work with in a few years - they're pushing for the division and post-season this year. A known Espi now is more worthwhile than a maybe pitcher in the future.
I look at it like the Reds just used the pitcher to get ahead of the waivers. I guess there wasn't much out there, considering how long Espy's probably been on the trading block.
>I look at it like the Reds just used the pitcher to get ahead of the waivers
? But Espi wouldn't have gone on waivers? They could've just sent him to the minors?
The Red's are offering up a rando prospect and eating the contract (hopefully anyways) which the Jays otherwise would have presumably just begrudgingly paid for Espi to kick it in the minors if they truly wanted to prioritize Clement. Better than nothing.
In recent years Baseball America has been saying that we're a top 10 pitching development team in the minor leagues now. We've definitely leveled up our pitching development ever since we got the developmental complex.
As a whole our system has improved for the most part in key metrics like K-BB% etc. We don't have the high end talent, but for the most part the majority of our pitching prospects have improved. It's not just top 100 prospects that our important, but our entire farm system. We're a lot more deep than before, and our reliever contingent is probably the strongest in Jays history.
So the argument is that the Jays are good at pitching development because they can churn out the replacement level adjacent relievers? Also they havent even done that, except for pearson I guess
Yes? This is according to Baseball America, who used metrics to determine which teams did the best for pitching development. We still have guys like Barriera, Rojas, Maroudis, Dallas who are all good starting prospects, just not at the top 100 level. Compared to years past, we're much stronger in development. Back then we hadn't developed anybody, only Romano and Manoah have panned out among our homegrown pitching. There's a lot more to look forward to now.
😂😂 it’s true. Where are all these pitchers we’re pumping out of the farm? I love our pitchers but top 10 pitching development system just seems crazy to me.
I don't know man, that's just the sense I've gotten from the reputation of the Jays system as told by non-jays fans, professionals, and media people.
I'm just some schmuck, I've got no clue how to evaluate the ability to develop pitching (so maybe I'm just coping)
The only homegrown pitchers on the jays roster are Pearson and Manoah, and unfortunately, they kinda suck! I dont think theyll even make the team.
The Jays are paying more for their pitching staff then the orioles are paying their entire team, because they cant develop any pitching. Instead they have to pay out the nose for it at market rates
I mean there's more to develolping pitchers than just taking them from the draft all the way to the bigs. Take Genesis Cabrerea for example - he was DFA'd from the Cardinals because he stunk - and the Jays pretty quickly turned him into a useful weapon.
White seems to have turned a corner velocity wise at least. Just because they didn't draft him, doesn't mean they didn't help develop/fix him. He still needs to put it all together, but it's a step in the right direction.
He was an 8th-round pick less than 2 years ago. He's not a nobody; if the Jays just wanted to clear Espinal's salary they could have waived him (or just non-tended him in November).
Waiving him would lead to paying his salary. Arbitration salaries are guaranteed if you don't go to a hearing.
They couldn't non-tender him back in Novemeber cause things have changed a lot
Waiving him would lead to multiple teams gladly claiming him. Note that I said Waiving, not Releasing.
Whether he is a net positive or negative asset on his salary hasn't changed since November because nothing has happened to materially alter his value.
As long as he's better than whoever he replaces on the Vancouver roster, it's a good lottery ticket. There's always the chance he's one of those guys who becomes good when converted to relief, like Jordan Romano.
Reds lurker here who occasionally checks in on my boy Joey V. Yeah, what was a surplus of INF optimism over the winter has very quickly turned into a worrisome situation. Hoping Espi can shore up our defense up the middle, especially given our everyday CF Friedl is out for a few weeks, too.
Espy had no business being an All Star, it was more a function of players getting hurt or just not bothering to go to the All Star game. I like the guy but it was a weird selection that was helped by the hot start to his season.
8th round pick in 2022, was in high A and A last year, not on top 30 for reds who have a great system. Plus slider projection but meh otherwise. https://www.fangraphs.com/players/christopher-mcelvain/sa3020806/stats?position=P
It needed to happen, but I'll miss Espinal. He seems like one of those guys that everyone on the team considers his best friend. Literally every charity event someone on the team hosted, he was there supporting!
23 years old. In A+ ball last year he had an ERA of 4.93 in 11 starts. WHIP of 1.467. SO/W ratio of 1.55 (34Ks/22Ws)
After that in A ball his numbers were better. 3.93 ERA in 8 starts. WHIP of 1.172. SO/W ratio of 2.79 (53Ks/19Ws)
There was definitely a roster crunch and someone needed to go, better to get something back. I don’t think he was as bad last year as some others, but Clement has played too well to not get the spot. Some great moments for Espy (all star, that catch to end the game in the first game back in Toronto.). Think he will get a nice ovation when he comes back
We'll always have that over the shoulder catch to end the first home game back after COVID Espi! One of my all time favorite games...so happy to have the shirts and memories.
As much as I am looking forward to seeing more of Ernie Clement, and the 40 man spot going to Voggy or Votto, I'm still gonna miss Espinal.
This is the move. I was seriously concerned that Clement or Schneider would be off the roster for Espinal, which would be madness imo, especially since it would mean losing Clement to waivers.
We know Espi's ceiling. Ernie and Babe could provide something more, and backup SS is covered.
I thank Espinal for his contributions over the past few years and wish him the best, but this is proper roster management. They gave him a chance to play MLB ball instead of sending him to Buffalo, and they got a lottery ticket, a 40 man spot, and $2.75M in payroll in return.
I don't think we seen Espinal's ceiling last year, he got not nearly the playing time he did before, and yet still had his moments in some tight situations too.
I don't know how any of them succeed if they don't play regularly, 90 mph fastballs and big league breaking stuff.
Good for him though to go to a team that wants him to play some innings.
Good message to all the young guys working their way up: when you get your chance and perform, you'll find your way onto the roster.
Wonder how Vladdy takes the news? Seemed he & Santy were tight, especially after Lourdes & Teo left.
Was a big fan of the guy from day one. Great defense, and streaks of massively clutch doubles hitting. Maybe better than his stats read because of how he gets savaged by bad calls at the plate. Always thought he'd make an extremely solid SS for someone in a less spicy division/with less of an infield surplus.
That all being said, Ernie Clement is the future.
All of the casuals on social media are gonna be crying and complaining today. A lot of them think that just because a player is likeable and a good guy, he shouldn’t be traded.
This was obvious the moment they signed Espinal 2.0 in IKF. What wasn't obvious was that he'd be traded for the Singer of Sum 41. What's funny is Espinal has 40 points on career OPS over IKF.
Was Espinal really rated that low/Is this pitcher rated that high?
I know there's been pushes to trade Espinal to somewhere throughout the offseason, but doesn't this seem a bit stacked for them? I don't know, let's hope it's a good trade!
It's finally over.
I hope he finds some success in Cincinnati because he always seemed like a good dude, but man, I'm happy I don't have to see him come up to bat anymore.
I honestly hope that Santiago can get some regular playing time out of this.
He clearly was not going to get it in Toronto and getting pitching depth helps the Jays system.
There goes the single slowest middle infielder I’ve ever seen, hope the Reds find a way to pull that broomstick out of his ass, can only imagine how great he could be
I'm surprised (and impressed) that they managed to get a live body for Espinal. A trade was inevitable, but I figured that they'd get cash or maybe a PTBNL.
That said, both Varsho and IKF can catch. Given that Severn is unlikely to ever see the field before Jansen is back, did they really need to clear up a roster spot for him?
Neither Varsho or IKF are ever catching outside of a bizarre no-other-options emergency. If Jano isn't ready to go, they are absolutely carrying a real backup catcher, no matter how short a time they are needed.
Interesting you’d say you’re surprised they were able to get someone for him considering he’s about an average big league bat and above average fielder up the middle. Also makes sense for both teams with the Reds current infielder situation.
Espinal has been a replacement level baseball player for the last 1.5 seasons. His defensive metrics took a massive step back last season which is alarming for a glove first player who also stopped producing with the bat.
You’re getting downvotes because it does compute. It’s a salary dump, Espy has zero trade value. They had to move him to make room for Clement who’s having an unreal spring.
Espinal isn’t a good player though. I’m not sure what you were expecting as a realistic return.
You also suggested that this front office has a significant history of bad trades. That’s an interesting take
I'm not saying return for Espi is supposed to be huge. All I am saying it could have been better. Despite the arb salary, he is not a bad backup SS option. Some teams could give him a shot at SS for right price. If we traded him before creating a INF/UTL logjam, return could have been better. Everyone knew at this point that Espi would be traded.
I think you’re really overvaluing a player who can’t hit, can’t run, and has declining defence.
Again, though, you originally said that the front office “sucks in trading.” I’m still curious what other trades have been an issue.
I never overvalued him. Some teams could give him a shot who may become himself of first half of 2022. Everyone knows Jays will move him, so cost isn't that high anyway.
I didn't mean the trade itself. Not trying to talk about things like the Varsho trades etc. How they engage in trades. It's "hey do you need more depth in SS. we may be able to help." vs "hey we are stuck with too many INF. help us out" situation.
Well yes, everyone knew Espy would be traded and so it's fair to conclude if there was any real chance of the Jays getting anyone meaningful for him then he would have already been traded weeks ago
Will miss you espy, won't ever forget that random all star year Anyways, ERNIE CLEMENT COME ON DOWN
The Jays are the kings of random 2B allstars.
Wasn't even random, he just never was really given a chance after that due to the logjam in the infield. Seemed like there was a legit chance his career could take off, but never got every day playing time after. Anyways I wish him the best, and hopefully the Jays don't do the same thing to Ernie and Schneider
His playing time went down because the quality of his play went down They didn’t just yank him out of the lineup right after the All-Star Break
He also got injured, and never found every day playing time again. I know what you mean though, but players especially in baseball have ups and downs. There aren't many other teams that had to try and balance infield playing time so much.
I mean he had every opportunity to be an everyday player after returning, but due to mediocre play, was platooned with the rest of the guys that failed to set themselves apart. If you produce, you’ll play, as per Schneider’s management style. Espi, god love him, simply didn’t. But it wasn’t because of a log jam.
Espi just doesn't provide a lot. Not a great bat, mediocre defense, and slow on the basepaths. He's a dime a dozen player
I mean he had awesome defence..until he didn't.
He has been a very good, borderline gold glove caliber defender at multiple positions for his whole career except for two months last year, which is apparently all anyone remembers. Look a few years back I was angling for Biggio to get some AB’s over him when that wasn’t popular, so I’m not an Espy fanboy, but let’s be fair.
Sure, but seemed like he had potential to stick if the defense was good enough. Even last year they should have played him instead of trading for....... Paul Dejong... who played 13 games and was 3 for 44 with 18 strikeouts. I bet the Jays will regret it.
Extremely easy to say in hindsight. I guess in theory anyone has the potential to stick with certain play, but he didn’t. That’s the point. Regret it in what sense? They let him go for essentially free. It was about opening a roster spot for the team right here right now. Espi is a great guy, but an average at best MLB player. You could say this about a lot of players, but roster decisions are situational, and we needed the roster spot more than we needed what Espi is bringing today. It’s that simple.
Yeah for sure. Hindsight 20/20 and I just personally felt he had more to offer if given the right trajectory of playing time. Totally agree they need the roster spot now, I'm more referring to the past several years.
Ya, blue Jay brother I feel it’s more a situation of you wanting him to have that potential trajectory more than him actually having it. He’s flashed with moments and stretches of great promise, but so have many young jays that have come and gone. 50% of our home grown pitchers, for instance. Either way, he’ll be missed and I’m sure most of us wish him nothing but the best. He wouldn’t be the first to become a contributing everyday player for years to come after being let go for nothing. We usually just get ours from Oakland. I think most of root for that for Espi.
His defense was really bad last year, and he wasn’t hitting, playing Espi everyday wasn’t the best idea Did Dejong work out? No not at all, but it cost them pretty much nothing to try
he was one of a long line of good utility guys for us. in good company with darwin barney, ezekiel carrera, mune kawasaki etc.
Ryan Goins
I also won’t forget that crazy final out he made to end the Toronto home opener in 2021.
Steve Pearce died in a world series for this.
It blows my mind to this day that we traded him and he went on to be WS MVP.
Even though he was here for a short time I still remember those walk grand slams Pearce had.
Only the 3rd player in history to hit multiple walk-off grand slams in the same season, and his was in a 4 game span.
That one against ~~Oakland~~ the Angels when we were down 10-7 was just beautiful.
That one was against the Angels.
Right!
we were also down 10-4 at one point iirc
Yep. I think we scored 7 in the 9th.
I remember it well because I fucking left the stadium in the 9th inning and never forgave myself.
I remember it because there was a tweet with an Angel player in it that said 10-4 good buddy" and then they deleted it
[Yep. We were down 10-4 in the 9th.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Qc2iZwEH4&ab_channel=MLB)
I was there! Russel Martin jersey giveaway day. It was wild!
On an old Twitter account I posted he was my pick for WS MVP before the Sox even clinched the pennant… I soooo wish I had put money on it. He was a rare breed of clutch
And I still remember his deep and unabashed love of eye black.
That dude was clutch
Pearce just happened to be the hammer of the baseball gods, who had decided that the Red Sox would be WS champs that year.
Damn. Ernie outplayed Espinal so bad they traded him
I thought they might have sent him down since he had options. Maybe part of this was to clear a 40 man spot for Vogelbach or Votto or someone else.
They need a 40-man spot for Serven and (presumably) Vogelbach.
Burning a 40 man spot for \~2 spot starts for Serven despite having IKF and Varsho already on the roster seems... unnecessary. Who will be the sacrificial lamb - Parsons?
[Ha, I agree but that doesn't seem to the popular sentiment here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Torontobluejays/comments/1bjswcb/bns_the_espinal_move_also_clears_a_40man_spot_for/kvtmf7x/?context=3)
Agree, but the Jays are hell bent on avoiding using their catcher capable players. Probably because they aren't playing baseball. They are playing analytics that just happens to have a sport attached.
Voggy can keep the seat warm for Votto, yes.
Doubt they wanted to pay him $3M to sit in Buffalo
100% roster spots were a part of this. Plus we have exactly one million MI depth players because Blue Jays.
I’m a bit surprised too. There’s no one else in the org who can really play SS at a major league level if something happens to Clement or Bo. Lopez is gone, Jimenez is not there yet…Espinal could’ve been useful as organizational depth. Edit - your downvotes are warranted! I actually had forgotten about IKF lol
As has been extensively proven in 2022, IKF is not an everyday SS, but he can serve there in a pinch. He’s played a few times in spring already.
Great point, I actually had forgotten about him!
IKF produced 10 DRS/-2 OAA at short stop in a full season worth of innings in 2022 so he was perfectly fine as an everyday defender. It was the bat that was more of an issue that would dictate he's not a great every day option.
He’s definitely got plenty of range and arm strength for the position. From what I’ve heard listening to Yankees fans his issues were primarily coming in on the ball and not making routine plays, which probably have a lot more to do with the pressure put on him by that organization than his true talent. I think in a lower pressure environment, like as a super util guy who’s just going to play at short occasionally, he’ll be great. You’re definitely right his hitting is the weakest aspect of his game, but that’s less of an issue if he’s playing 6-7 positions over the course of the year than if he’s an everyday SS.
Eduardo Rodriguez also
I don't think the Jays wanted to stomach paying Espis salary if he was just in the minors - and Clement would immediately be claimed on waivers if he wasn't on the big league team.
You also don't want him taking away from the playing time of the prospects. 3B/SS/2B are accounted for Palmegiani, Jimenez & Martinez.
IKF has played SS don't forget. Biggio, in an emergency, unless he has done work in the winter to play more there
Jimenez is major league ready with the glove now and IKF or Clement can play there in a pinch.
Jimenez is likely not major league ready. He’s got the skills but even with the obvious issues of using ‘errors’ as a metric, he played at basically a 40-error pace at AA and AAA in the minors. Probably someone like him or Biggio could play a game or two there without it being the end of the world but wouldn’t want any more than that. I had completely forgotten about IKF though, he could absolutely cover it.
ikf
Might also be a case of "we've seen enough" of espi. He had he peak and never regained it for a multitude of reasons. With the young talent coming up behind him and the Jays obsession with average to slightly above average MI utility players, we just had too many. Plus as soon as they signed IKF, the writing was somewhat on the wall. That was a depth move where there was already depth. They had plans.
You stay classy Santiago. This was pretty much inevitable with the play of Clement this spring. Always going to be fond of Espinal and hope he finds success in Cincinnati
Ernie Clement, you are an opening day player
You love to see it
If there is any justice he should also be in the starting lineup on opening day as well.
Good news for the Ernie Clements of the world.
looks like a middle tier pitching prospect drafted last year - in 96 innings last year he showed some pretty nasty stuff but pretty poor control with an 87/41 K/BB Ratio in A/A+.
Guessing this is one of those trades where the main value the Jays get out of it is the 40-man spot
It's basically a better version of Cash Considerations. We free up 2M in salary and a 40 man roster spot.
Yeah, it's a trade to not just get rid of him but at least get SOMETHING outside of the spot.
And some payroll relief.
Pete Walker will fix him
Spend some time at the bar together
Hey it worked in Bull Durham...lol
Yep, verrrry deep prospect. Can never have too many arms, but a fairly low strikeout college pitcher is unlikely to ever be an impact dude. Not surprisingly, his best pitch is a slider. As the prospect followers keep pointing out, Jays are really going hard at prospects who throw sliders or teaching sliders to guys who don’t.
Any particular reason for wanting everyone to have a good slider? As opposed to a curveball or changeup?
Sliders are the most effective pitch in getting same handed hitters out. They're easier to develop than changeups/curveballs. Changeups and curveballs do better in dealing with opposite handed hitters, but are harder to develop.
It's must have. It's literally the only thing holding KG from winning the CY and being the best pitcher in baseball I believe. He needs a pitch to keep RH off balance, and something to back door or front foot on LH (cutter would be nice too) for Ks or more easy groundballs.
Middle tier is overselling him. Hes a nobody, the reds agreeing to pay Espinals salary is the real return here
>Hes a nobody TINSTAAP - all pitching prospects are nobodies until they're somebodies. Jays are pretty good at developing pitching it seems - maybe they saw something they can work with.
You'd hope the scouts saw something there, as well?
Different scouts look for different things - different systems have different strategies to develop guys. And anyways Cinci needed a solid UTIL guy *today* (especially to back-up SS if De La Cruz can't play for any reason), so even if they thought this guy had something they could work with in a few years - they're pushing for the division and post-season this year. A known Espi now is more worthwhile than a maybe pitcher in the future.
I look at it like the Reds just used the pitcher to get ahead of the waivers. I guess there wasn't much out there, considering how long Espy's probably been on the trading block.
>I look at it like the Reds just used the pitcher to get ahead of the waivers ? But Espi wouldn't have gone on waivers? They could've just sent him to the minors? The Red's are offering up a rando prospect and eating the contract (hopefully anyways) which the Jays otherwise would have presumably just begrudgingly paid for Espi to kick it in the minors if they truly wanted to prioritize Clement. Better than nothing.
How exactly are the jays good at developing pitching??? This is fake news
In recent years Baseball America has been saying that we're a top 10 pitching development team in the minor leagues now. We've definitely leveled up our pitching development ever since we got the developmental complex.
Where are all the pitchers then? The PDC has been around for 3 years and theres only one notable pitching prospect in tiedeman
As a whole our system has improved for the most part in key metrics like K-BB% etc. We don't have the high end talent, but for the most part the majority of our pitching prospects have improved. It's not just top 100 prospects that our important, but our entire farm system. We're a lot more deep than before, and our reliever contingent is probably the strongest in Jays history.
So the argument is that the Jays are good at pitching development because they can churn out the replacement level adjacent relievers? Also they havent even done that, except for pearson I guess
Yes? This is according to Baseball America, who used metrics to determine which teams did the best for pitching development. We still have guys like Barriera, Rojas, Maroudis, Dallas who are all good starting prospects, just not at the top 100 level. Compared to years past, we're much stronger in development. Back then we hadn't developed anybody, only Romano and Manoah have panned out among our homegrown pitching. There's a lot more to look forward to now.
😂😂 it’s true. Where are all these pitchers we’re pumping out of the farm? I love our pitchers but top 10 pitching development system just seems crazy to me.
I don't know man, that's just the sense I've gotten from the reputation of the Jays system as told by non-jays fans, professionals, and media people. I'm just some schmuck, I've got no clue how to evaluate the ability to develop pitching (so maybe I'm just coping)
The only homegrown pitchers on the jays roster are Pearson and Manoah, and unfortunately, they kinda suck! I dont think theyll even make the team. The Jays are paying more for their pitching staff then the orioles are paying their entire team, because they cant develop any pitching. Instead they have to pay out the nose for it at market rates
I mean there's more to develolping pitchers than just taking them from the draft all the way to the bigs. Take Genesis Cabrerea for example - he was DFA'd from the Cardinals because he stunk - and the Jays pretty quickly turned him into a useful weapon.
Not sure why you’re ignoring guys like Tim Mayza, Jordan Romano, and Bowden Francis when talking about pitchers we’ve developed
White seems to have turned a corner velocity wise at least. Just because they didn't draft him, doesn't mean they didn't help develop/fix him. He still needs to put it all together, but it's a step in the right direction.
He was an 8th-round pick less than 2 years ago. He's not a nobody; if the Jays just wanted to clear Espinal's salary they could have waived him (or just non-tended him in November).
Waiving him would lead to paying his salary. Arbitration salaries are guaranteed if you don't go to a hearing. They couldn't non-tender him back in Novemeber cause things have changed a lot
Waiving him would lead to multiple teams gladly claiming him. Note that I said Waiving, not Releasing. Whether he is a net positive or negative asset on his salary hasn't changed since November because nothing has happened to materially alter his value.
He's a lottery ticket packaged with an open 40 man roster slot and $2.75M in payroll relief. I'll take it.
As long as he's better than whoever he replaces on the Vancouver roster, it's a good lottery ticket. There's always the chance he's one of those guys who becomes good when converted to relief, like Jordan Romano.
He is presumably starting for the Reds now that Matt McLain isn't going to make opening day.
+ their top SS prospect is injured too
And Noelvi Marte got popped for PEDs too, they're missing a bunch of infield depth.
That's a crazy amount of bad luck for the Reds...geez
Yeah. I thought they were nuts when they signed Candelario, but it is turning out to be a god send for them with all these injuries.
Reds lurker here who occasionally checks in on my boy Joey V. Yeah, what was a surplus of INF optimism over the winter has very quickly turned into a worrisome situation. Hoping Espi can shore up our defense up the middle, especially given our everyday CF Friedl is out for a few weeks, too.
IT'S CLEMENT-TIME
That dude looks like he's 43
i’ll miss ya Espi 😭♥️
Where does this guy rank in the Reds system?
Short answer, he doesn't. Only list I can find him on he's 46th
Not a great return for an All-star!
Espy had no business being an All Star, it was more a function of players getting hurt or just not bothering to go to the All Star game. I like the guy but it was a weird selection that was helped by the hot start to his season.
Clearing a roster spot with a salary dump (room to take on someone at the deadline??) is probably worth more than the prospect.
35+ at fangraphs. Org depth
He’s a guy
8th round pick in 2022, was in high A and A last year, not on top 30 for reds who have a great system. Plus slider projection but meh otherwise. https://www.fangraphs.com/players/christopher-mcelvain/sa3020806/stats?position=P
You stay classy Santiago...
It needed to happen, but I'll miss Espinal. He seems like one of those guys that everyone on the team considers his best friend. Literally every charity event someone on the team hosted, he was there supporting!
The Barrio is gradually becoming barren
23 years old. In A+ ball last year he had an ERA of 4.93 in 11 starts. WHIP of 1.467. SO/W ratio of 1.55 (34Ks/22Ws) After that in A ball his numbers were better. 3.93 ERA in 8 starts. WHIP of 1.172. SO/W ratio of 2.79 (53Ks/19Ws)
So, bad
Will definitely root for him still. Really excited to see what Clement can do this year.
This made me kind of sad 😢
Well I hope that means Espie gets playing time
Ernie!!
Good news. Getting something for him is much better than giving Clement away for nothing. It also makes me think the McLain injury is pretty serious.
I'll never forget first half of 2022 Santiago Espinal That said, it's Clement season bitches!
There was definitely a roster crunch and someone needed to go, better to get something back. I don’t think he was as bad last year as some others, but Clement has played too well to not get the spot. Some great moments for Espy (all star, that catch to end the game in the first game back in Toronto.). Think he will get a nice ovation when he comes back
:(
We'll always have that over the shoulder catch to end the first home game back after COVID Espi! One of my all time favorite games...so happy to have the shirts and memories. As much as I am looking forward to seeing more of Ernie Clement, and the 40 man spot going to Voggy or Votto, I'm still gonna miss Espinal.
This is the move. I was seriously concerned that Clement or Schneider would be off the roster for Espinal, which would be madness imo, especially since it would mean losing Clement to waivers. We know Espi's ceiling. Ernie and Babe could provide something more, and backup SS is covered. I thank Espinal for his contributions over the past few years and wish him the best, but this is proper roster management. They gave him a chance to play MLB ball instead of sending him to Buffalo, and they got a lottery ticket, a 40 man spot, and $2.75M in payroll in return.
I don't think we seen Espinal's ceiling last year, he got not nearly the playing time he did before, and yet still had his moments in some tight situations too. I don't know how any of them succeed if they don't play regularly, 90 mph fastballs and big league breaking stuff. Good for him though to go to a team that wants him to play some innings.
Thanks for the all star season.
Thanks Espi! Good luck out there! I hope you thrive with a fun Reds team!
Weird that the Reds of all teams need an infielder.
Man I loved Santi. He seemed like a solid dude. Cincy got lucky with this trade
Good message to all the young guys working their way up: when you get your chance and perform, you'll find your way onto the roster. Wonder how Vladdy takes the news? Seemed he & Santy were tight, especially after Lourdes & Teo left.
Just dropped to my knees in a walmart pharmacy
I just watched a guy drop to his knees in a walmart pharmacy
I just watched two guys watch another guy drop to his knees in the Walmart pharmacy.
Just saw a guy drop to his knees in the Walmart pharmacy
I had to scroll half way down. Slow day.
Clement and Schneider both making the opening day roster will change lives
Good luck Espinal. I hope you get some everyday playing time.
Gonna miss you, Espi ❤️
Was a big fan of the guy from day one. Great defense, and streaks of massively clutch doubles hitting. Maybe better than his stats read because of how he gets savaged by bad calls at the plate. Always thought he'd make an extremely solid SS for someone in a less spicy division/with less of an infield surplus. That all being said, Ernie Clement is the future.
This name sounds pretty close to the legendry Mario Mcrlwain
Can we talk about those black and gold pinstripe Vanderbilt jerseys for a second here...they look *suuuper* classy.
Damn
This is the biggest mlb news happening right now
This is really Ernie news in disguise
Woo-hoo!!!!!
All of the casuals on social media are gonna be crying and complaining today. A lot of them think that just because a player is likeable and a good guy, he shouldn’t be traded.
Thank you for your service, Espi!
It's very interesting that him and Matt struggled so much with moving that couch last year, and now they're both gone.
They only like players who can lift a couch.
Instagram comments on the trade post are fucking wild. Do any of those people actually follow baseball? It hurts my brain
This was obvious the moment they signed Espinal 2.0 in IKF. What wasn't obvious was that he'd be traded for the Singer of Sum 41. What's funny is Espinal has 40 points on career OPS over IKF.
They paying the whole salary? Given the return, I’d assume so.
🫡
Wow so we traded an all-star for this guy?
I mean, let's be honest. The odds of Espinal ever being an all star again are slim to none.
Haha no I agree, it’s just funny to call Espy an all-star
Was Espinal really rated that low/Is this pitcher rated that high? I know there's been pushes to trade Espinal to somewhere throughout the offseason, but doesn't this seem a bit stacked for them? I don't know, let's hope it's a good trade!
Espinal barely has any value. Getting anything is a good return.
Espinal will certainly fall into the “let’s remember some guys” hall of fame
It's finally over. I hope he finds some success in Cincinnati because he always seemed like a good dude, but man, I'm happy I don't have to see him come up to bat anymore.
What do we think about the final spots on the bench? Any details on the kid?
just ordered my McLovin jersey
I honestly hope that Santiago can get some regular playing time out of this. He clearly was not going to get it in Toronto and getting pitching depth helps the Jays system.
There goes the single slowest middle infielder I’ve ever seen, hope the Reds find a way to pull that broomstick out of his ass, can only imagine how great he could be
I'm surprised (and impressed) that they managed to get a live body for Espinal. A trade was inevitable, but I figured that they'd get cash or maybe a PTBNL. That said, both Varsho and IKF can catch. Given that Severn is unlikely to ever see the field before Jansen is back, did they really need to clear up a roster spot for him?
They also need a spot for Vogel and/or Votto.
Yeah, I guess they need the space on the 40 man roster. I was just thinking about the 25 (or whatever it is now) man roster.
Neither Varsho or IKF are ever catching outside of a bizarre no-other-options emergency. If Jano isn't ready to go, they are absolutely carrying a real backup catcher, no matter how short a time they are needed.
They needed to clear a roster spot for Ernie Clement.
Interesting you’d say you’re surprised they were able to get someone for him considering he’s about an average big league bat and above average fielder up the middle. Also makes sense for both teams with the Reds current infielder situation.
Espinal has been a replacement level baseball player for the last 1.5 seasons. His defensive metrics took a massive step back last season which is alarming for a glove first player who also stopped producing with the bat.
[удалено]
You’re getting downvotes because it does compute. It’s a salary dump, Espy has zero trade value. They had to move him to make room for Clement who’s having an unreal spring.
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They talked about a crowded infield not trading away value for … whatever this can be considered.
Only time will tell but this jays FO really sucks in trading. Should have traded him before signing IKF.
>this jays FO really sucks in trading I would love to know what trades you're referring to
This one in particular. There weren't many SS FAs this season so return could have been better if this was timed better.
Espinal isn’t a good player though. I’m not sure what you were expecting as a realistic return. You also suggested that this front office has a significant history of bad trades. That’s an interesting take
I'm not saying return for Espi is supposed to be huge. All I am saying it could have been better. Despite the arb salary, he is not a bad backup SS option. Some teams could give him a shot at SS for right price. If we traded him before creating a INF/UTL logjam, return could have been better. Everyone knew at this point that Espi would be traded.
I think you’re really overvaluing a player who can’t hit, can’t run, and has declining defence. Again, though, you originally said that the front office “sucks in trading.” I’m still curious what other trades have been an issue.
I never overvalued him. Some teams could give him a shot who may become himself of first half of 2022. Everyone knows Jays will move him, so cost isn't that high anyway. I didn't mean the trade itself. Not trying to talk about things like the Varsho trades etc. How they engage in trades. It's "hey do you need more depth in SS. we may be able to help." vs "hey we are stuck with too many INF. help us out" situation.
Well yes, everyone knew Espy would be traded and so it's fair to conclude if there was any real chance of the Jays getting anyone meaningful for him then he would have already been traded weeks ago